Why do Republicans hate small business owners?

And you forget the biggest point of all. We live in a free country. Nobody is forcing anyone to accept any loan they don’t want; if you don’t like the terms and conditions don’t sign the application. However if you do sign and take on debt, you should be man enough to repay it even if you don’t want to.

Wow, I must say I’m surprised to hear this from you. But let me be clear about what I am saying and what I am not saying. (By way of disclosure, most of my practice is representing large creditors in business bankruptcies and workouts.)

Blame: I am not saying that people who borrow too much are free from blam. I am saying that some of the blame should be borne by irresponsible lenders.

Sympathy: I have sympathy for many (not all) consumers who wind up in bankruptcy. In most cases, they are unsophisticated and naively but sincerely believe that they will be able to pay off their credit cards over time. Sometimes, they are just bad at math and underestimate how fast interest can pile up at 20%+. They also overestimate their ability to curb future spending and save money. They also are bad at planning for “unforeseen” emergencies, like medical bills and layoffs. These are, of course, not unforeseen for the population, but nobody ever believes it will happen to them. Ignorance and naivete are not legal defenses, but they do evoke sympathy.

On the other hand, I have no sympathy at all for the credit card companies because (1) they know exactly what their default rate will be and are just making informed business decisions based on statistical models about whether and how much to lend people. Using your argument, this is a “free country” – nobody is forcing them to lend money to anyone. (2) in almost all cases, by the time there is a bankruptcy filing, they have recouped their actual losses and are just owed interest and fees, and (3) in most states, the interest rates charged by credit card companies would be usurious. HOwever, because they set up shop in usury havens like Las Vegas (or “The Lakes” as they like to say) and South Dakota, they can get away with what individual lenders could not. This is hardly the moral high ground.

Public Policy and Means testing: Finally, let’s not forget that one of the primary purposes of bankruptcy is to afford people a fresh start. Why? Well, if you knew you were going to be saddled by your debts for the rest of your life, would you work as hard as you can? Maybe not. You have less incentive because your disposable income will be going to pay 20% interest to your credit card company for the rest of your life. For some people, they will NEVER make enough to pay off these debts. That is not good for society because we want people to be highly motivated to be productive. For all of you good Christians, out there, let’s not also forget that the Bible tells you that every 7 years there should be debt forgiveness (a debtor’s “jubilee”). Why? Presumably, it is considered immoral to saddle people with debts forever. So, to me, the fact that you might be able to pay off all of your debts in the future if you commit all of your disposable income to a repayment plan is not compelling policy.

Finally, although lawmakers like Grassley have been trumping up charges of mass bankruptcy abuse, the truth is that it is not the norm. There are a small number of people who truly abusing the bankruptcy laws. Congress could tweak the laws to help rectify this without implementing wholesale reform to help the credit card companies. But they don’t really care about that. They already cut the most effective reform out of the bankruptcy bill: uniform homestead exemptions. Initially, the bill had a provision that would cap homestead exemptions at $125,000, I think. That got tossed, meaning that you can continue to move to Florida and Texas and exempt your entire multimillion dollar mansion, a la OJ and Bilzerian.

#1. Never borrow money.

#2. Never lend money.

#3. Never spend money to make money.


That is so un-American. How would our economy or government function under those rules? Almost every successful business and business person got where they are because of the availability of credit in this country. In all seriousness, this is one of the primary reasons that the American economy is so strong.

Hopefully, it’ll be from venture capital, where the risk is assumed . . .

Tony
Why does everyone seem to assume that lenders don’t assume risk? Especially unsecured lenders. If you give someone a line of credit, you are assuming the risk that they might not be able to repay you. YOu can’t squeeze blood from a stone. If you ship goods to a customer on net-30 terms, you are extending unsecured credit and assuming risk. If you fix a leak in someone’s sink without getting paid in advance, you are extending credit and assuming risk. If you serve a meal to a customer in a restaurant, you are extending unsecured credit and assuming risk (unless it is a fast food place where you pay c.o.d.) You don’t need to be a venture capitalist to assume risk.

If I’m a credit card company, i’d be pissed too if my bottom line was being affected by a law that allows people to borrow my money, and then not pay me back.

Why would you loan money to people that couldn’t pay you back?

Are you serious???

Like any lender a Credit Card company will underwrite your credit worthiness at the time of your application; if your record deems you worthy of credit they will lend you money.

Sometimes people and their situations change. A guy can borrow $5K one week, go get drunk, punch out his boss, get fired, not be able to repay…and guess what? The next week he declares himself bankrupt and you, me and all the other responsible members of society end up paying back that 5 grand.

Underwriters cannot see into the future, they can only use past behavior as a guide.
OK, this is pissing me off. I wrote long replies to all of these messages, and they didn’t post. That will teach me. I’ll try again.

Credit card companies do not have to see into the future with a crystal ball because they are not affected by the quirky behavior or luck of individual borrowers. They lend to huge groups of borrowers based on statistical models, and they know with a very high degree of accuracy how many people will “default” (more on that later). They then pool their stream of receivables into multi-billion dollar bundles and securitize them. These asset-backed securities are sold on Wall Street to pension plans and other institutional investors. The securities are rated by Moody’s, Fitch’s and S&P based on the quality of the receivables and priced accordingly to reflect the proper amount of risk. So, it doesn’t matter if Joe Schmo punches his boss in the mouth or Jane Doe gets hit by a car and becomes disabled. What matters is that the default rate for a given class of borrowers is X%.

Also, the concept of “default” is somewhat misleading. Just because a borrower is in default doesn’t mean that the CC company has lost a nickel. Most borrowers pay interest for years (at around 20%) before they file bankruptcy or just stop paying. In the meantime, the CC company is “buying” money at closer to 5%. That’s a pretty good spread. This means that in most cases, the CC company has actually recouped its principal and cost of money before there is a default. The unpaid balance is just part of their profit. These are the best borrowers, actually.

Nice rebuttal. You know nothing about bankruptcy. You’re facts are wrong- I’ve shown you where.
You gotta trust me on this one. Bank law is what I do when I’m not goofing off on the internet.
Matt - I hate to say it, but you’re wrong on this one. CC companies knowingly (and even purposely) lend to borrowers who will “default” all the time. See my immediately previous post.

" a harvard study of bankruptcies since '81 found that 54% were medically related"

Medically related, IMO, is a far cry from caused by medical issues. Someone with huge credit card debt playing the “credit card Shuffle” game is certainly going to be sunk by ANY interuption of their fragile situation.

“but even the national review concedes that something along the lines of 27% of personal bankruptcies are indeed medically related”

And here again “medically related” not caused by.

I have 100% sympathy for those that are wiped out by medical catastrophies. I 100% agree that steps should be made so that does not happen and they are protected under bankruptcy ruling if it does. However that being said I’m certainly against a ruling that allows an individual to go out and jack up credit cards, buy new cars, TV’s, etc etc then wipe it all out because he broke his leg and couldn’t work for a month.

I’m not arguing in anyway that credit cards are not at least partially responsible here either. I’m saying looking at the bill, knowing several people that “just went bankrupt, because it was easy” that a certain amount of bankruptcy reform is necessary. I didn’t see anything in there that was blatantly flawed, but it’s a big bill and I coudl be missing something. The addendem list is rather large and excludes alot of people, certainly the true “medical emergency” coudl be addressed.

~Matt

No one is arguing that the people that have the assets to pay should pay. But they already do when they go through bankruptcy, that’s what the courts are for. The judge can determine whether someone should go into chapter 7 versus chapter 13 already.

This law goes much further. This stipulates that, for example, any household in Texas that makes more than $39,271 has to enter into a repayment plan. Maybe if you’re single making $40K you can afford a repayment plan. Maybe if you have a family of 4 and total household income of $40K it wil be ruinous. Plus now they can take your house if you haven’t owned it for at least 40 months.

This story about how deadbeat consumers are abusing the hapless credit card industry is absurd.

The proponents of S.256 argue that the bill is good for consumers because it will reduce
the so-called “bankruptcy tax.” In their view, the cost of credit card defaults is passed along to
the rest of those who use credit cards, in the form of higher interest rates. As the bill’s sponsor
dramatically puts it: “honest Americans who play by the rules have to foot the bill.” This
argument seems logical. However, it is not supported by facts. The average interest rate charged
on consumer credit cards has declined considerably over the last dozen years. More importantly,
between 1992 and 1995, the spread between the credit card interest rate and the risk free six month
t-bill rate declined significantly, and remained basically constant through 2001.9 At the same time, the profitability of credit card issuing banks remains at near record levels.

http://nacba.org/maxdocs/Law_Professor_Letter__final_.pdf

Do you guys really believe that your rates are going to go down now?

“On a portfolio basis, the credit card companies make more money off of people with marginal credit who carry a balance then they do off of people who live within their means. The marginal people pay massive interest charges and late fees. That’s how credit card companies make money. They barely make a dime off of people who live within their means.”

credit card companies make most of their money on their 3-6% “service charges” at the point of sale. Everytime you use you credit card to buy something a percentage of that money goes to the credit card company. How do you think they can afford to offer you 2% cashback? Because they’re charging the business 4% for that purchase. I put everything on my credit card, but pay it off every month. So MBNA is probably making about 3-4% on my 2K per month credit card bill. They aren’t making anything off of me on interest, but are making a ton on the service charges.

If a credit card company gave someone a credit line of 10,000 and they only had 30,000 in income and then they went out and maxed that credit card out I have no sympathy for that person. Seriously, why should I care that you’re too stupid to realize that you have to pay that money back (medical emergencies are a different story, but then people should also make sure they are properly insured)

Nice rebuttal. You know nothing about bankruptcy. You’re facts are wrong- I’ve shown you where.
You gotta trust me on this one. Bank law is what I do when I’m not goofing off on the internet.
Matt - I hate to say it, but you’re wrong on this one. CC companies knowingly (and even purposely) lend to borrowers who will “default” all the time. See my immediately previous post. Dire - I hate to say it but I’m not. Of course CC companies know that a certain % of their loans will default…in fact its federal law that they keep high loan loss reserves because of this very fact. If you make 10 million loans even to the very top FICO prime of prime consumers a certain % will always default…but on an INDIVIDUAL basis, when each customer is underwritten, there is no way in hell any bank will ever lend anyone a dime if they KNOW that that PARTICULAR person will not pay them back.

credit card companies make most of their money on their 3-6% “service charges” at the point of sale. Everytime you use you credit card to buy something a percentage of that money goes to the credit card company. How do you think they can afford to offer you 2% cashback? Because they’re charging the business 4% for that purchase. I put everything on my credit card, but pay it off every month. So MBNA is probably making about 3-4% on my 2K per month credit card bill. They aren’t making anything off of me on interest, but are making a ton on the service charges.
Incorrect - the service fees are charged and collected by VISA and Mastercard for the use of their systems. Your credit card company doesn’t get a dime at the point of sale.

Not everyone can be properly insured even if they were to devote all of their income to just the essentials of living (cheap housing, insurance, etc). I’m not saying that this is why people get huge credit debts, but just to make the point that not everyone in the US can do what most of us take for granted. Plus, lot’s of people are just stupid, but that’s a different yet related topic.

“collected by VISA and Mastercard for the use of their systems. Your credit card company doesn’t get a dime at the point of sale.”

So let’s say I’m using an MBNA Mastercard. You’re telling me that MBNA makes 0 money from “loaning” me my monthly balance? Somehow they have to be getting something from Mastercard.

I freely admit I don’t understand all of the complexities of the credit card industry, but I find it hard to believe that the bank fronting Mastercard the money for my purchases isn’t getting a single cent unless I carry a balance.

Dire - I hate to say it but I’m not. Of course CC companies know that a certain % of their loans will default…in fact its federal law that they keep high loan loss reserves because of this very fact. If you make 10 million loans even to the very top FICO prime of prime consumers a certain % will always default…but on an INDIVIDUAL basis, when each customer is underwritten, there is no way in hell any bank will ever lend anyone a dime if they KNOW that that PARTICULAR person will not pay them back.

Well, when you phrase it that way, all I can say is “no duh.” Of course CC companies do not lend to any particular individual the KNOW will not pay them back. But that doesn’t happen very often. What does happen is that they lend to people who, statistically, are fairly likely to not pay off the entire account balance. HOwever, they also know, statistically, that most of these people will pay enough back to allow the CC company to recoup the principal and their actual out of pocket costs (i.e., the cost of money). And, more importantly, they know that the entire portfolio of borrowers with a particular income and FICO score will be profitable to them.

The problem for the CC companies (it’s not really a problem) is that they can’t identify which individuals in a group will be unprofitable loans (I don’t want to use the word “default” because many “defaults” are still very profitable). They do know that X% of people in a given pool will default. Just like you know that you can lose with a full house in 5 card stud. It’s still a good hand and you still bet big every time. They happily choose to lend to the X% of unprofitable loans because that is the only way, without a crystal ball, they can also capture the 100 minus X% of profitable loans. As long as people aren’t lying on their credit apps, the CC companies are making informed business decisions about exactly how much credit to give people in each class and remain very profitable. (And if they are lying on their credit apps, then the loan is already nondischargeable in bankruptcy under 11 U.S.C. section 523(a)(2))

Because they are consciously and voluntarily making the very rational business decision to purposely lend to a certain percentage of people who will default, they don’t need the government to protect them further. They already have the full house.

Mastercard and VISA own the system through which the credit card transaction proceeds…they charge a fee for that transaction which the retailer pays…sometimes the retailer passes it on to the consumer…ever register for a race and have to pay extra if you sign up online using your credit card? thats the fee.

Not only does your credit card company not make money at the point of sale, they also take a loss on the float. You get the benefit of 30 days interest free credt each time you make a purchase. Your credit card company lends you money for free for a whole month…not a bad deal.

Interesting. So now let’s say I get a 2% cash incentive for using that same card. Is Mastercard paying that incentive or is MBNA (the bank)?

It’s surprising then that when I go to cancel a credit card that I have never carried a balance on the bank tries to get me to keep it. Why, when all I do is cost them money every month?

Seems like a weird situation.

As a consumer you have no relationship whatsoever with VISA or Mastercard. Any incentives you receive come from your credit card company, any fees you pay are paid to your credit card company. VISA and Mastercard are service providers they are not banks, they do not lend money.

The bank tries to get you to keep your card because the costs of acquiring a customer are very high and they don’t want to lose your business. Even if they are taking a loss on your account they are willing to eat that loss in the hope that one day you will use the card more often and become a profitable customer.

Because you are so anomalous that you don’t matter. Statistically, they probably know that you (and if not you, most people like you) will pay late enough times or carry a balance enough times that you are still profitable. See my response above. They are not lending to you, individually. THey are lending to your whole class of borrowers. Additionally, while MattinSF is correct that you get to play the float off the CC company, they do the same thing to their retailers, so don’t feel too bad for them.

Dire again you’re over simplifying things. Each customer *is *treated as an individual. Each customer is individually underwritten and assessed as to their credit worthiness. Each customer is regularly reviewed and their account terms, APR etc may change on an individual basis if their situation or payment habits change.

For example if your credit card company sees signals of risky behavior…the opening of multiple new credit accounts, missed payments…even with other creditors, using one credit card to pay off another…they may and probably will make changes to your account terms…such as lowering your credit limit. On the flip side if you have been a good responsible customer for a certain period and want a lower APR you can ask your credit card company and in many instances they will give you a better rate or better terms and conditions to keep your business.

Of course the statisticians use classes of customers to build business models and profile types of customers, but each customer is individually underwritten and reviewed.

I agree that each customer is treated individually to the extent necessary to place them (and periodically readjust them) into the correct risk pool based on actuarial data. But it’s not like they are looking at people’s health records or job performance reviews to see if Joe Blow is likely to have a heart attack or get canned. They are not lending to Joe Blow like you or I would; they are lending to a big pool of people like Joe Blow. Big difference.