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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
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Maui5150 wrote:
I think the intent on the rule is meant to level the playing field, but it is misguided, insensitive and endangers or impairs the athletes life. This is less about what little visual clues the person lives with on a daily basis, but more of taking someone who is impaired and INCREASING their impairment to race. This unfamiliarity and loss of the horizon and equilibrium puts them at a severe disadvantage compared to someone who has adapted and lives their lives without any sight

I agree with the bolded portion completely. The rule, on it's face, makes no sense to me.

The problem I have is that tris are something that we choose to do. We are not forced to participate. When I choose to participate in a sporting event, I follow the rules that the organizer has established. If I don't like them, I have the option of not participating.
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [creek] [ In reply to ]
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The issue is an issue because of triathlon's inclusion into the paraolympics. These new rules will apply there and to all qualifying races for it.

If he doesn't race with the glasses he will not be able to race at the olympics. This is a BIG deal as I am sure you can understand. For an athlete that has spent so much time at a sport and for an opportunity like this to be tainted by a stupid rule is not fair.

NCCP certified Comp coach
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [creek] [ In reply to ]
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creek wrote:
Maui5150 wrote:
I think the intent on the rule is meant to level the playing field, but it is misguided, insensitive and endangers or impairs the athletes life. This is less about what little visual clues the person lives with on a daily basis, but more of taking someone who is impaired and INCREASING their impairment to race. This unfamiliarity and loss of the horizon and equilibrium puts them at a severe disadvantage compared to someone who has adapted and lives their lives without any sight


I agree with the bolded portion completely. The rule, on it's face, makes no sense to me.

The problem I have is that tris are something that we choose to do. We are not forced to participate. When I choose to participate in a sporting event, I follow the rules that the organizer has established. If I don't like them, I have the option of not participating.

Your stance is: If you don't like the rules, don't race.

That's it. No, if the rule is stupid and unfair and dangerous, do something to change it?

I don't agree with every rule in the world, but if I feel one is not right or dangerous, I can fight to have it changed. This rule fits into that category. And, for the USAT to turn their backs on these special athletes leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Have you ever seen the blind go off before the race? It's really something special. It takes a special person to dive into unknown waters and swim, then climb on a bike... Oh wait, run blind, I'd kill myself.

The rules are reckless and dangerous.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [creek] [ In reply to ]
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Only the first part about you skipping over the sentence that answered your own question.

The remainder of the post was not addressed to you at all. I was already a bit irritated with some of the ignorant comments that I had read and the frustration just happened to spill out after I responded to your post. I apologize if it came off as directed towards you.
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [MSUtri] [ In reply to ]
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why making someone who is already challenged, totally impaired? we should be embracing anyone willing to stand on the starting line, and not make there life harder,

we make the life of big people easier, by having a clydesdale/athena division, perfectly knowing that a 6'5 200 pound is the same has a 5'6 140 pounds

my 2 cents
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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We need a thumbs up or down button.. Would reduce a lot of redundant comments.. topics like these are either supported or not.. I could do a thumbs up and be done..
Thanks..
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [jpb] [ In reply to ]
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jpb wrote:
ssphone wrote:
I will say this again and that is no doubt he is a talented athlete, but the crux of my original post is that Aaron is making mountains out of mole hills. He is wasting - IMO - the money of USAT, and I believe I help fund USAT every year. I am not a litigious person and I hate lawyers. Are you in favor of his lawsuit?
I'm agnostic on the lawsuit. I don't know what he's trying to achieve, so I can't say if it's a) a worthwhile goal and b) if a lawsuit is a reasonable way to achieve it. I just think it's mean-spirited of you to get on here and belittle the guy's accomplishments. He's a badass on the course, whatever you think of his actions off it, and it's stupid to try and take that away.


But getting back to Alcatraz for a second. What is your point? My point was that is it is *possible* that his times are faster than if he had 75% vision or even 100% vision. When you drag you weight up a hill you get that back when you go downhills
uh. You didn't read what I wrote.

- you are aware of that? He has probably 1500 watts climbing those hills, are they going to climb slower than others? Sure they and the rig weigh more but there is one drive-train, and they are putting out way more power than the average single person is. And who cares if it is technical? Are you referring to it being a tandem and tough to navigate?
See above. Read my post again.

Well I have seen tandems corner faster than triathletes. Sure Alcatraz is hard, and sure it might not suit him that well but what is your point? You are trying to find a course that it is not faster to have a guide???? All courses suit some athletes more than others, we all have to choose our races and we do have the choice.

And you bring up the run, well lets talk about the run for a second. Take the footing for instance, maybe because he has to be more careful he is able to keep a lower heart rate and thus do a better job of natural pacing.... You think that is BS, I have seen it happen numerous times. You take a speedy guy and you throw him in his first IM and he blows up because he was able to redline his body. You take a guy that has a natural governor that doesn't allow him to redline, thus he can't burn himself up, and his first IM is a success. Happens all the time.
You can reach for reasons that the guy has an advantage, but the point is that he goes crazy fast without being able to see. It's true that if I (a sighted person) had a guide I'd go a little faster than I do now, but HE CAN'T SEE. It seems like you're trying to make the point that he's faster than he would be if he were sighted. This is testable. Let's go get some blackout glasses and get us a couple of guides and find out what happens. I don't think I'd do as well.

We could debate this subject until the end of time but if you can't see a guide being a help then you are not thinking out of the box. Sure it goes both ways, and sure it is not as cut and dry as I make it but you can't just think of it as an apples-to-apples comparison either and that was my other real point.


===========================
I reread the parts you asked and yes I read them correctly the first time. I am not sure what you are talking about in asking me to reread them.

Regardless I think the thing you keep forgetting is that Aaron is only partly blind. We can try to put ourselves in his shoes, but we won't know what he sees. What I do know is that I have seen him walking around and about numerous times and he looks nothing like a blind person. Go watch the way a blind person walks around and look at them. I am not sure what Aaron sees but he sees something, and he sees enough to navigate around perfectly fine on his own.

And I am not trying to belittle Aaron's accomplishments, and I believe I have stated every time that he is a tremendous athlete. My point was that it is simply not as clear-cut as everyone seems to make it. There are many more factors that I am not even considering, and the answer to what is gained and lost by his guide and impaired vision is very complex. But to be ignorant and assume it provides no advantages is very short-sighted.
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [jbsurfin] [ In reply to ]
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thumbs down for you to make stupid comments like this, again it is a FORUM,

Forums prefer a premise of open and free discussion and often adopt de facto standards. Most common topics on forums include questions, comparisons, polls of opinion as well as debates. It is not uncommon for nonsense or unsocial behavior to sprout as people lose temper, especially if the topic is controversial. Poor understanding of differences in values of the participants is a common problem on forums. Because replies to a topic are often worded aimed at someone's point of view, discussion will usually go slightly off into several directions as people question each others' validity, sources and so on. Circular discussion and ambiguity in replies can extend for several tens of posts of a thread eventually ending when everyone gives up or attention spans waver and a more interesting subject takes over. It is not uncommon for debate to end in ad hominem attacks.
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [thierry64] [ In reply to ]
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well when I continue to read comments that show ignorance.. I'll still take the choice of a thumbs up or down..

So lets see your ignorance now, the light is on you.
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [jbsurfin] [ In reply to ]
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the light is so bright i can't see a thing, on the other hand the economy is so bad they have turned the light at the end of the tunnel

your turn :)
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:

And I do not buy the argument that partially sighted folks somehow are now at some disadantage because they now have to race dark, that is simply not true. I'm positive that if I were to train completely blacked out for a month or two, I would adapt and be very competitive, most likely kick some serious blind ass. .


lol, I can't believe you said that
Last edited by: lacticturkey: Jun 22, 11 10:50
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [richhunter] [ In reply to ]
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I'd like to step back for a second and get out of the emotional/personal comments in this discussion and ask the following "strategic" question:

The lawsuit is being filed in the US District Court. There is no monetary aspect to the suit...they just want USAT to change the rule. Now, based on what several people have mentioned, he wants to go to the paralympics (as do many other visually impaired athletes)...thus, the lawsuit to prompt a rule change.

Let's assume that this suit goes to court and they win. USAT changes the rule. He and everyone else that is visually impaired in the US can race without total black out glasses during the run. Now...the ITU doesn't change the rule. He's back to square one with plans for the paralympics.

The ITU is an international governing body. Even if you went to the Canadian courts where the ITU is housed/established and file a law suit, there are FIVE Federations (Africa, Asian, Panamerican, European and Oceania). You'll have to get concensus from all of the Federations. Even if they were to win in US courts, that certainly doesn't even guarantee adoption by the Panamerican Federation....

I can totally understand this "path" to bring about a discussion for a rule change but if ultimate goal is a change at the ITU level, a broader campaign and bigger picture strategy should be established.

Haka Multisport, LLC

Discover your inner warrior
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [Moudi] [ In reply to ]
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Moudi wrote:
I'd like to step back for a second and get out of the emotional/personal comments in this discussion and ask the following "strategic" question:

The lawsuit is being filed in the US District Court. There is no monetary aspect to the suit...they just want USAT to change the rule. Now, based on what several people have mentioned, he wants to go to the paralympics (as do many other visually impaired athletes)...thus, the lawsuit to prompt a rule change.

Let's assume that this suit goes to court and they win. USAT changes the rule. He and everyone else that is visually impaired in the US can race without total black out glasses during the run. Now...the ITU doesn't change the rule. He's back to square one with plans for the paralympics.

The ITU is an international governing body. Even if you went to the Canadian courts where the ITU is housed/established and file a law suit, there are FIVE Federations (Africa, Asian, Panamerican, European and Oceania). You'll have to get concensus from all of the Federations. Even if they were to win in US courts, that certainly doesn't even guarantee adoption by the Panamerican Federation....

I can totally understand this "path" to bring about a discussion for a rule change but if ultimate goal is a change at the ITU level, a broader campaign and bigger picture strategy should be established.

They have to start somewhere.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [Transgender] [ In reply to ]
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Transgender wrote:
Moudi wrote:
I'd like to step back for a second and get out of the emotional/personal comments in this discussion and ask the following "strategic" question:

The lawsuit is being filed in the US District Court. There is no monetary aspect to the suit...they just want USAT to change the rule. Now, based on what several people have mentioned, he wants to go to the paralympics (as do many other visually impaired athletes)...thus, the lawsuit to prompt a rule change.

Let's assume that this suit goes to court and they win. USAT changes the rule. He and everyone else that is visually impaired in the US can race without total black out glasses during the run. Now...the ITU doesn't change the rule. He's back to square one with plans for the paralympics.

The ITU is an international governing body. Even if you went to the Canadian courts where the ITU is housed/established and file a law suit, there are FIVE Federations (Africa, Asian, Panamerican, European and Oceania). You'll have to get concensus from all of the Federations. Even if they were to win in US courts, that certainly doesn't even guarantee adoption by the Panamerican Federation....

I can totally understand this "path" to bring about a discussion for a rule change but if ultimate goal is a change at the ITU level, a broader campaign and bigger picture strategy should be established.


They have to start somewhere.

I agree that they have to start somewhere. The two things I see as potential problems would be the following:

a) they are not being discriminated against with regard to competing in USAT sanctioned events. The USAT rules state that he can't compete for awards in the visually impaired category. For example, if an athlete that is a poor swimmer decides to use a wetsuit between water temps of 78.1 and 83.9, they can still "compete" but they can't receive awards or use that result for any USAT ranking. I would "legally" view the blacked out glasses in the same way. The visually impaired athletes are not banned from competing (e.g. discriminated against) if they choose not to use blacked out glasses. They just can't compete for awards or ranking points (in this case they can't build toward that Paralympic goal).

b) as stated, if the end goal is to have adoption at the ITU level, is there a public plan or campaign to have advocates or petitions that would be present at the next ITU rules summit?

As with many things, success in large organizations typically comes from the top down. I would assume that USAT adopted this rule as instituted from "above" (example of top-down communication/adoption). If one wants the greatest chance of success, one should aim for buy-in at the highest level. Once an international governing body adopts the idea, the national and local governing bodies would follow suit.

Haka Multisport, LLC

Discover your inner warrior
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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lol, I can't believe you said that //


Ok everyone, I do not know how to use the pink font, just assumed you would all get the humor in my statement, I guess not..(-;

At least you lauged at it, I think? lol
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [psychosyd] [ In reply to ]
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psychosyd wrote:


The initial rule was put in place without any consultation with Aaron (by far the fastest and most active blind athlete in the world)


Under what criteria, with regards to the bold? Your statement may have been more accurate if you said he is the fastest VI Triathlete in the world, except that he did not win the ITU ParaTriathlon World Championship...

One of the issues paralympic competitions face is the need to classify athletes into group of similar disability. This is not the same as whining that you can't train as much as the guy that won your AG. A burly discuss thrower missing a leg below the knee is going to be no more competitive in ParaTriathlon than a 145lb bike racer with the same disability trying to compete in discuss. The classification system levels the playing field as best it can with regards to gross ability, it does not account for equipment, genetics, training, etc.

Also, it's easy to say, "just add another category." The problem is dilution of fields, you need numbers to justify a race and adding categories will make fields smaller. Then you have to convince countries to send athletes to fill the categories, but each nation has a limited amount of athletes it can take to the event. It's not such a clear-cut issue when you look at everything involved.
Last edited by: AaronT: Jun 22, 11 11:51
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [ssphone] [ In reply to ]
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ssphone wrote:
He is faster on the run because he is fresher off the bike. He might be soft-pedaling for all we know - but at the very least he spent less time on his bike. So if he would have bike a 1:05 40K and bike a 55 then that is 10 minutes less of biking. Less biking equals more energy for running. Go out and ride a tandem sometime, or find one riding and try to hang onto them - it is a big difference regardless of aero position. I have never watched him swim, but it is possible that he is given space by other athletes and isn't climbed over etc, in addition he can draft swimming right off someones chest on their bow wave. There is no sighting involved either - all he has to do is follow the guide, and with a string attached he is going to be following the guide. Regardless of how it all works in actuality, the point I was making is that it is not a simple apples to apples comparison.


You are complete dip, per regulation Aaron must finish the race with the same guide that he starts the race with. Hence if Aaron did nothing on the bike and his guide pulled him through the entire course he would still be tethered to his guide for the run portion. Aaron has been DQ'd from races where his guide has bonked and he even went on to finish with the aide of multiple course spectators leading the way.


He has a website: http://www.cdifferentwithaaron.com/
Last edited by: SoberBySaturday: Jun 22, 11 12:51
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [AaronT] [ In reply to ]
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Trust me, he is the fastest VI athlete in the world. If he didn't win the race, it was becasue he wasn't in it.

At NYC last year he walked the run to protest the black out goggles (wearing them). Which was the NA champs.

I know for sure he has set the world record for a VI athlete at the 70.3 distance and the olympic distance. Pretty sure that would make him the fastest in the world.

NCCP certified Comp coach
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]
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You're right, I'm having an off day. I deleted that post.

(The next bit is not at drake)
I still think the points I brought up in the previous post should be considered.

Also, I'm not sure why Scheidies should have been consulted about a proposed rule change. The UCI did not ask Fabian if he was ok with the enforcement of 3:1, I doubt the ITU asked the last winner of a non-draft OD World Champ if he/she was ok with switching to the draft format.
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [thierry64] [ In reply to ]
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The former "Frenchman" who stated 6'5" 200 is the same as 5'6 160 is one of the dumbest comments I've seen in a while. Thank you.
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [RAC880] [ In reply to ]
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5'6 140 lb, need to do your home work on body mass,
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [thierry64] [ In reply to ]
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Your Height: (feet) (inches) Your Weight: (pounds)
Your BMI:


6'5 200lb BMI 23.7

5'6 140lb BMI 22.6


Your Height: (feet) (inches) Your Weight: (pounds)
Your BMI:


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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [thierry64] [ In reply to ]
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ideal body weight for a male

6'5= 185lbs
5'6= 140lbs
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