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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [Transgender] [ In reply to ]
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From http://www.usatriathlon.org/...thlon/classification:

"Visual Impairment: legally Blind (20/200 vision with best corrective vision)."
"To qualify for ITU international and USAT sanctioned events, an athlete must meet the minimum disability standard of having a permanent and specific loss of at least 15% function."


So the logic is: if you see 20/200 you must wear blackout glasses to take you to 0/200 to make it fair. By this logic a person with an amputation just above the elbow should be forced to tie his arm behind his back to make it fair to the people with arm amputations at the shoulder. Penalizing someone with a disability to make it "fair" is just ridiculous on its face. There are already 6 classifications, if people with 0/200 vision really think there needs to be a 7th then just make a 7th.

There are rules about what constitutes a legal bike but the logic above would say everyone must ride the exact same bike - and it would need to be the least common denominator i.e., my cheap store-brand bike not a P3.
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [jkbrennan77] [ In reply to ]
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jkbrennan77 wrote:
From http://www.usatriathlon.org/...thlon/classification:

"Visual Impairment: legally Blind (20/200 vision with best corrective vision)."
"To qualify for ITU international and USAT sanctioned events, an athlete must meet the minimum disability standard of having a permanent and specific loss of at least 15% function."


So the logic is: if you see 20/200 you must wear blackout glasses to take you to 0/200 to make it fair. By this logic a person with an amputation just above the elbow should be forced to tie his arm behind his back to make it fair to the people with arm amputations at the shoulder. Penalizing someone with a disability to make it "fair" is just ridiculous on its face. There are already 6 classifications, if people with 0/200 vision really think there needs to be a 7th then just make a 7th.

There are rules about what constitutes a legal bike but the logic above would say everyone must ride the exact same bike - and it would need to be the least common denominator i.e., my cheap store-brand bike not a P3.

I do not want this to be about me...

But in the same light, if I race female, which is on my license, but I haven't had the surgery, do I have to have the surgery first?

I find if very funny that the people making the rules are fully sighted and have absolutely no idea what the fvck they are talking about. Let them live with a disability for a short time and they may "see" it differently.

The idea of equality in racing is absurd anyway. Now everybody has to ride the exact same bike, wear the same suit and train the exact same way. It's only fair since Joe athlete has more time to train he should be in the 15-20hours training week wave. Or the genetic freak wave.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [formerfatass] [ In reply to ]
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formerfatass wrote:
jpaulson518 wrote:
Is it fair to let someone who has an impairment but not total blindness compete against someone who is completely blind?


Yes, because in both cases there is a lifetime of learning there. People in total blindness are instantly given a distinct advantage when you further handicap a visually impaired person. A visually impaired person accustom to receiving 'light cues' can no longer use the tools they have spent their entire lifetime utilizing.


Would this not give him an advantage over someone who is totally blind? I don't know the answer but it seems that the rule is there to level the playing field.

ETA: The problem I have with his suit has nothing to do with his disability nor am I choosing sides. It just bothers me when someone who chooses to participate in an organized sport sues because they do not like the rules. If you don't like the rules don't participate or work within the organization to get them changed. Newsflash - triathlon is not real life. It is a recreational activity we choose to participate in. Before you call me insensative, my father was blind the last 12 years of his life. I have seen the effect it has on someone, but that does not give someone the right to tell an organization that runs an activity that is totally voluntary, how they should do things.
Last edited by: creek: Jun 22, 11 6:45
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [creek] [ In reply to ]
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creek wrote:
formerfatass wrote:
jpaulson518 wrote:
Is it fair to let someone who has an impairment but not total blindness compete against someone who is completely blind?


Yes, because in both cases there is a lifetime of learning there. People in total blindness are instantly given a distinct advantage when you further handicap a visually impaired person. A visually impaired person accustom to receiving 'light cues' can no longer use the tools they have spent their entire lifetime utilizing.


Would this not give him an advantage over someone who is totally blind? I don't know the answer but it seems that the rule is there to level the playing field.

Level what field? Is the field level in your AG? DO you all race the same bike? Wheels, tires? Do you all have the exact same time training?

What about the person leading the blind person? What if they are stronger on the bike than the other blind guys? OMFG, now they have to be watt tested to make sure they don't have an advantage.

What if the totally blind guy was 20lbs lighter than the seeing guy, should he have to carry weights?

What about the time they have been blind? Wouldn't someone that has been blind for 20 years have an advantage over someone that has only been blind 5 years.

This whole thing of equality is absurd. Nothing is ever equal, it never will be. If you meet the qualifications of blind by the rule book, then your blind, the degree of blind should not be an issue.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [jpaulson518] [ In reply to ]
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Dumbest thing I have heard in a while. Obviously you have no clue.

The issue is that they are making people do something that is unsafe. In the past there have been different categories that take into consideration different abilities.

What they are doing is forcing them to wear these glasses making them 100% blind. This is not fair to those that have some vision because they don't function fully blind. It would be the same as asking you to race with no vision. They have some vision, but not enough to race safely on their own, which is why they can't race in the normal AG. Trust me, you don't want someone with 10% vision trying to ride a bike beside you. They need a guide, which to be fair, puts them in another category.

They are trying to get rid of the of the different categories to simplify things. This is a SAFETY issue. That is it. It is unsafe to ask someone who is unused to running with no vision to do so. Trust me, it is a big issue.

NCCP certified Comp coach
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [triguy98] [ In reply to ]
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yes training with blackout lenses would be the way to go if you want to compete against fully blind people.

its impossible to completely fairly accommodate everyone's unique situation. Should I sue for having low endurance talent?


triguy98 wrote:
I am hearing impaired. It presents a different set of challenges than visual impairment. However, there is a similarity here. No, my hearing isn't great, but without my hearing aid, my balance is off a little. If the athlete can pereive light, being thrust into the dark with blackout lenses would be an incredible challenge.

Those "arrive prepared" statements are absurd. You think they should have to train with blackout lenses? I am not sure how much that would help a ton, as they are not likely to wear them for the other 98% of their life.

With sentiments like the above posted, apparently this sport DOES need a lawsuit. People are simply ignorant of the reality faced by others.



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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [Transgender] [ In reply to ]
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Transgender wrote:

I find if very funny that the people making the rules are fully sighted and have absolutely no idea what the fvck they are talking about. Let them live with a disability for a short time and they may "see" it differently.

Check out who is on the Paratriathlon committee - http://www.usatriathlon.org/...atriathlon/committee

I'd say they can check the box that says "living with a disability."
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [psychosyd] [ In reply to ]
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So it was dumb to pose questions about my thoughts on the subject.

I'm sure you've read dumber things on this board, and if you read my follow up post, I'm still undecided on the issue, I was just throwing out some initial observations and questions.

I'm not an idiot on the internet that is going to fight to the ends of time on my half-thought-out opinions. I'm open to a debate and open to changing my views based on logical arguments.

You don't have to be an ass just because you disagree with someone. (Especially someone who was obviously not 100% on either side.) Read my other comment.
Last edited by: jpaulson518: Jun 22, 11 8:16
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [Peanut] [ In reply to ]
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Peanut wrote:
Transgender wrote:


I find if very funny that the people making the rules are fully sighted and have absolutely no idea what the fvck they are talking about. Let them live with a disability for a short time and they may "see" it differently.


Check out who is on the Paratriathlon committee - http://www.usatriathlon.org/...atriathlon/committee

I'd say they can check the box that says "living with a disability."

Not one with sight issues.

  • Brian Leske, Co-chair: A five-time ITU above-knee world champion, three-time Hawaii Ironman finisher and former assistant U.S. attorney with the U.S. Department of Justice, Brian lives in Boston.
  • Jon Beeson, Co-chair: He was ITU below-elbow world champ in ’01 and ’02 and manages property in Santa Barbara, Calif.
  • Tabi King: Formerly program director of the Challenged Athletes Foundation, Tabi is now with Ossur, one of the largest prosthetics companies. She lives in San Diego.
  • David Curnow: David is a former TriFed vice president and honorary member of ITU. A quadriplegic since 1988, he is an assistant U.S. attorney from San Diego.
  • J.P. Theberge: Current ITU below-knee world champion, the newest member of the commission. Lives in San Diego.


"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [Transgender] [ In reply to ]
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Transgender wrote:
Level what field? Is the field level in your AG? DO you all race the same bike? Wheels, tires? Do you all have the exact same time training?

+1

ITU/USAT don't set the same precedents or equality standards for able bodied AGrs or Pros. My competition isn't penalized because I am not as strong or well trained as they are (and trust me, they are stronger and better trained than me!)

I don't understand the need to make the playing field "level" in the para-divisions, especially if those fields are not "level" in AG/Pro

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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [creek] [ In reply to ]
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I know in HS when you didn't want to read a full paragraph you would read the first sentence, then skip to the last and call it good. But clearly, you're still doing that as you clearly did not read the second sentence in that post:

Quote:
People in total blindness are instantly given a distinct advantage when you further handicap a visually impaired person.


The point is, those who have been blind forever know how to be blind. You see blind people navigating the streets all the time with walking sticks, dogs, etc. Whether they are completely blind or not, only they know. However, it is about adaptation and adaptation does not happen within a matter of months like some other assclowns have mentioned previously. No, it takes years and neither you, I, nor anyone else on this forum want to really try to adapt to losing sight. The only way to adapt to a stimulus is to be subjected to it continuously, not just in training. In order to completely level the playing field, Aaron would have to wear the black-out goggles for years so that he could adapt to the stimulus (or lack thereof).

I know Aaron personally as he founded the MSU Triathlon Club and continues to be an active member. In the few times I have trained with him, it is clear that he has adapted to his level of blindness (which if you know anything about his disease, is progressive, thus making adaptation that much more difficult).
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [jpaulson518] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, actually just got to the post where you stated that. Was a little jumping the gun at the start.

Still, this is a walk a mile in some one elses shoes type thing.

NCCP certified Comp coach
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
Clydesdales? What's that? Aside from a bad analogy...sorry man...true 'clydesdales' race with their age group and don't bring their
weight in the equation...Those who are strong built realize they do a sport that is probably not best suited for their physiques, and
tough it out with the lightweights. And some of these guys really kick ass. Those who are just fat and want a special division, well
that's just total bullshit. They can lose weight...people with poor vision can't do anything about it. Overweight folks can.


You failed to address the context of my analogy...so let me give you another one.

There are certain genetic factors that make some people better at triathlons than others, regardless of training or experience.

Do we need to find those factors and handicap those that have better suited genes in order to level the playing field for all categories (Pros, AGs, Vision Impaired)?

That was the point of the analogy.

Clearly that is something that everyone would disagree with for AG or Pro/Elite categories. There is already a standard that has been set to determine if someone is in the visually impaired category, beyond that isn't it just the same as being genetically different in the AG category?

I'm still a bit on the fence about the whole issue, but I feel like I'm leaning more to the side that they should not have to wear the black-out goggles.
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Agree and disagree... I race AG and not Clydes results are the same... There are definitely fast Clydes in the 40-44 AG, so at many races while they may not win the AG, they would podium. Their decision as to how they want to classify themselves.

As far as loosing weight... They can to some extent, but are still disadvantaged. I am not near being single digit bodyfat percentage yet, but working on it... my 8% still is looking to be around 189 - 192, and we will see how with as I get closer if more muscle loss occurs that drops this lower. It is what it is
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [Transgender] [ In reply to ]
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Transgender wrote:
Peanut wrote:
Transgender wrote:


I find if very funny that the people making the rules are fully sighted and have absolutely no idea what the fvck they are talking about. Let them live with a disability for a short time and they may "see" it differently.


Check out who is on the Paratriathlon committee - http://www.usatriathlon.org/...atriathlon/committee

I'd say they can check the box that says "living with a disability."


Not one with sight issues.


  • Brian Leske, Co-chair: A five-time ITU above-knee world champion, three-time Hawaii Ironman finisher and former assistant U.S. attorney with the U.S. Department of Justice, Brian lives in Boston.
  • Jon Beeson, Co-chair: He was ITU below-elbow world champ in ’01 and ’02 and manages property in Santa Barbara, Calif.
  • Tabi King: Formerly program director of the Challenged Athletes Foundation, Tabi is now with Ossur, one of the largest prosthetics companies. She lives in San Diego.
  • David Curnow: David is a former TriFed vice president and honorary member of ITU. A quadriplegic since 1988, he is an assistant U.S. attorney from San Diego.
  • J.P. Theberge: Current ITU below-knee world champion, the newest member of the commission. Lives in San Diego.

You said "a disability", not "a sight disability". Having no background in the area, would you guess that committee members would have more compassion, less compassion, or be neutral when talking about others' disabilities of which they don't have direct, first-hand experience? I have no clue.
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
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As I said, for those of you getting to low body fat well, it's just that you picked a sport not ideally suited for your physique.
Just do the best of it. I wouldn't ask for a (much) lower hoop if I played basketball ;-)
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [psychosyd] [ In reply to ]
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Also, to further on this post, it is not that he is only now jumping on this. They have been fighting this since day one with no real give and take from the ITU.

The initial rule was put in place without any consultation with Aaron (by far the fastest and most active blind athlete in the world) or any other visually impaired athlete that I am aware of.

They have tried to tackle this without taking it to court, but nothing was done. It is not just Aaron that has an issue with this. It is every blind athlete that competes in triathlon that I have talked to(I am not aware of all, but do know many). Yes, he can compete in an open category, but when it comes to competing in the paraolympics (which is his and many others goal) It is now a concern. This is why this is an issue now. With triathlon possibly being an exhibition sport in London and definetely in the olympics after he needs to get things clarrified.

The easy solution to this is to keep with having different categories for different impairments. Simple. Yes, you need to hand out more medals, but it will be fair, and it will be safe.

With regards to training with blackout glasses. All athletes want to perform their best with what they are given. He has some vision (trust me it sucks) and still can see a bit. Which is an advantage over those who are completely blind. He will not be able to do his best (even with training time) being forced to wear these glasses. It is impossible for him to run as fast with them as without.

I find it stupid that the ITU has made this distinction and that USAT has adopted it as well. The Paraolympics is about inclusion and doing the best you can with what you have. It is not about making someone more disabled than they allready are.

There are other ways to deal with this as well. They could put in a handicapping(sorry couldn't think of a better word :>) system (ala golf) where the athletes are given time penalties depending on their exact disability.

The ITU has not considered any other option. This is why it is an issue, and while I don't like the idea of taking it to the courts, I can see why he is frustrated and has resorted to this.

NCCP certified Comp coach
Last edited by: psychosyd: Jun 22, 11 7:17
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [creek] [ In reply to ]
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I think the intent on the rule is meant to level the playing field, but it is misguided, insensitive and endangers or impairs the athletes life. This is less about what little visual clues the person lives with on a daily basis, but more of taking someone who is impaired and INCREASING their impairment to race. This unfamiliarity and loss of the horizon and equilibrium puts them at a severe disadvantage compared to someone who has adapted and lives their lives without any sight
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I am the "unprepared" blind athlete who was sought out by a USAT official on the morning of a triathlon and told that black out glasses were required. This was in direct contradiction to what USAT employees had stated at the paratriathlon summit, black out glasses would not be required in local US races without implications in international and Paralympics competition. Having been so informed, I was, of course, "unprepared" to comply with a non-existent rule. I imagine that you too would be simply "unprepared" to run with black out glasses on the morning of a triathlon if you had been so informed that they were not required. For all of you who are so concerned about making this sport fair for the totally blind, those of us opposed to the black out glasses have repeatedly suggested to USAT that there be multiple competition categories for blind athletes so that everyone can compete to the best of their ability, rather than enduring additional handicaps for an activity that is supposed to be fun. USAT has refused to make such a rule, even though that is what most Paralympics sports do. Since there can be only one category for the blind and visually impaired, and the choice is between some degree of unfairness to the few totally blind participants and unsafe racing for the majority who are partially sighted, I think that the totals should yield.
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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My point was more directed at: "They can lose weight...people with poor vision can't do anything about it. Overweight folks can."

I agree and accept in general my performance is greatly dictated by carrying more muscle mass, especially on the run. That is life. I was more pointing out that even when cut and single digit, many racers are either still Clydesdales or border on the classification. While they may improve their performance, they are still disadvantaged.
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [kament] [ In reply to ]
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kament wrote:
Since there can be only one category for the blind and visually impaired, and the choice is between some degree of unfairness to the few totally blind participants and unsafe racing for the majority who are partially sighted, I think that the totals should yield.

It's already been covered that you're not "required" to wear the blackout glasses to race--you're free to race without in the Physically Challenged Open division. So it boils down to you thinking that those with a lesser disability (partially sighted) should take precedence over those with a greater disability (totally blind), simply because there are more of you. Nice.

Why is it so important for you to race in the same division as those who have a greater disability?
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [MSUtri] [ In reply to ]
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Are you addressing this to me? I possed a question and clearly stated that I didn't know the answer. My issue is not with anything that you just posted. Put it back in you pants big boy, you are just showing your ass.
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Think you misread the post. He said that he wouldn't mind racing in one category without the goggles.

NCCP certified Comp coach
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
kament wrote:
Why is it so important for you to race in the same division as those who have a greater disability?

I would advocate multiple categories for visual impairment within the para-division. But I don't think that partially sighted people should be regulated to the open wave (in which there are often not even awards) when there are more of us and when all we want to do is perform at our maximum level.
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Re: Blind Pro Triathlete filing suit against USAT [Peanut] [ In reply to ]
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I actually caught that myself but was to lazy to edit it.

I believe those that make the rules that dictate what others should do, should at least have some understanding of the impact of those rules. I notice that they aren't putting ridiculous rules on themselves. The notion of trying "level the playing field" is ludicrous. It can't be done, and to put rules in place tat would actually endanger an athlete is completely crazy.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix
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