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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Gholmes...

Don't get flustered by these dipshits. You did a great thing and I imagine there will be copycats galore, which is also a good thing. I must admit, there is nothing better than watching these dipshits take pot shots at you when you very clearly know your shit, have race experience and can crush their feeble points with empirical data and video.

Lets hope it makes a difference!


ADW


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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Lots of cheating going on here. Par for the course the past few years. There #'s should be matched to a name and posted. Yeah....I did an IM but cheated. What is becoming of this sport. It must be something that our Ex-president named Billy Boy Clinton started. It's OK to lie & cheat.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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The large gaps with no bikes are because reality is not linear like the model. With all those riders in that limited distance, if they can't avoid infractions in a linear model how can you possibly avoid infractions when the fleet is not linear, and there are gaps formed ?

A quick recap:the rules state that a) you have to maintain 7 meters between bikes, so combined bike/zone is 9 meters, and b) you must ride on right side of road unless passing. Putting that many athletes on the road in a short time span will, under those restrictions, at some point on the course, result in packs forming. Experience tells us this - at IMFL, many other races, and during the morning commute in pretty much every major city in North America. And a pack of cyclists is like a big, comfy feather bed. It feels great when you get in to it, and it is really hard to get out!

Let me ask this, just for the heck of it - when IMs had 1200-1500 participants, was there a ever much discussion about how large the packs were? Better yet, ask the top 100 guys out of the water how many large packs they saw....
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Well, good for you. I did the race the last 3 years and will be there again next year too. I do the race for me and race against only myself and the clock. I really don't care what others do as long as it doesn't interfere with me (which their drafting doesn't). Two guys where drafting off me on the newly paved portion about 20-30 miles from the finish and it didn't bother me a bit. I might feel different if I had a chance for a Kona slot, but I don't. It makes no difference to me if I finish 35th in my age group or 55th, as long as I had a good race. But thanks for your video.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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Aha! Therein lies the question.

Does anyone truly care about drafting rules?

Solution - draft legal racing.

This is the only solution.

Why are people so afraid of draft legal racing? It's already the norm. Der!
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [imsparticus] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Well, good for you. I did the race the last 3 years and will be there again next year too. I do the race for me and race against only myself and the clock. I really don't care what others do as long as it doesn't interfere with me (which their drafting doesn't). Two guys where drafting off me on the newly paved portion about 20-30 miles from the finish and it didn't bother me a bit. I might feel different if I had a chance for a Kona slot, but I don't. It makes no difference to me if I finish 35th in my age group or 55th, as long as I had a good race. But thanks for your video.

I feel the same way about racing for me, but I choose The Great Floridian as my IM b/c it's much less insane with the crowds. You do lose the big race atmosphere, but peace and tranquility is more my speed. Plus, the challenge of GFT vs. IMFL course wise isn't even comparable.....not even close. I think I went upwards of an hour at a time w/o seeing a car at GFT.

Like you, I am not a contender for an IM slot.....it's more about the journey. If you ever get bored with IMFL I would highly recommend checking out Clermont. The citrus farmers of Clermont are much nicer than the North Florida red neck too!
Last edited by: ride2eat: Nov 12, 09 4:58
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
My experience is the motor bikes are a danger. You do not always hear them coming. They do not yell on your left like most folks do when they pass. So just my experience.

Dave

Sounds like you are the danger, if you are not able to check over your shoulder to see if anything is approaching before you pull left. I hope you do better in traffic.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [ride2eat] [ In reply to ]
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I did the half at Clermont. Very tough. Granted much tougher than IMFL. At Clermont I didn't like the the traffic in town and didn't much like the run. I do like the big race atmosphere of IMFL.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [ In reply to ]
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Ken, what type of life do you have that you spend so much of it attacking others. Clearly you must be perfect, which I clearly am not, but I sure do not try to attack others
since what gives me the right to judge?

Dave

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Ken, what type of life do you have that you spend so much of it attacking others. Clearly you must be perfect, which I clearly am not, but I sure do not try to attack others
since what gives me the right to judge?

Dave

I'm not perfect, and I expect to be called out when I make a mistake or show myself to be an ass. I just assume you have the same attitude.

Tell us why a passing motorcycle is a danger to you, instead of attacking me with your sarcasm. Do you not bother to look over your left shoulder before pulling out? Passing traffic is not a danger; not paying attention to overtaking traffic is the danger.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [ In reply to ]
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At NYC I got boxed in with from the Computrainer Motorcycle film crew having to check up speed because of a slower rider in front of me going down hill. Then someone else decided to make a move and come around me leaving me no place to go. Said slower rider in front of me hit brakes harder going down hill. I looked to see if I could pass and right into slow rider I went . Had time to hit brakes but no time to move far left. Do not know if that has anything to do with you and h2o but did you read it all?

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [imsparticus] [ In reply to ]
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I'm with you man. I've done the race 7 times and will be there next year. I came out of the water around 1:11 and had a huge pack come up on me around 20 miles into the course. I went off the front 5 or 6 times and each time would be over taken and spit out the back, the peleton would slow to 18 mph, I would catch them and go again. I finally managed to break clean after special needs but the damage was done. I limped in with a 5:13 marathon. But I will be back and I will battle the drafters again! Hopefully in alot better shape. I have done 14 IM's including Canada, Germany, Austria, and Brazil and I have seen drafting in everyone of them. Until the drafting penalty is a DQ or No Kona Slot there will always be drafting.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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And the cause is ?
too many athletes in too short a distance to ride according to the current stated rules
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [xtremrun] [ In reply to ]
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Yanking Kona slots for people caught drafting won't stop it. As I said earlier, most, though not all, of the people that are in these packs aren't in contention. They just can't be bothered enough to ride legal because they're just out there to finish and aren't "racing". DQ seems a bit harsh for a first infraction, but it sure would make people careful. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that penalty laps are the answer.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, I just do not try to call people out in a negative way. I love to ask questions, since I can always learn something from anothers experience or opinion.

As they say in life there are no dumb questions, just dumb answers.

What gives me the right to call out anyone for a "mistake", let alone my opinion that someone showed themselves to be an ass? I do not think anyone does this on purpose. Some of us write better than others.
Some have better grammar or choice of words. But, I sure have found in life when I assume the positive in someone, even if I THINK I could take another person comments negative, it keeps me out of trouble. I try to ask back with a question to make sure I heard what they were trying to say. 99% of the time, guess what, I did not hear correctly what they were trying to say. And the times I responded with the half empty assumption, yep, I am the one who feels and looks like an ass.

But off the soap box.

You already have your opinion and answer to a passing motorcycle has no danger, so why would I even try to offer my experience might be different. Clearly, your opinions are the only correct ones.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [ In reply to ]
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Bingo, and they just keep adding more athletes, so clearly, WTC is concerned about drafting.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [dgunthert] [ In reply to ]
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If you owned this business, do you really think you would be thinking of ways to piss off your customers? Do you really think the WTC owners do anything other than when they hear another bitch thread as been posted on ST than laugh all the way to the bank?

Yes, the vast vast majority of racers, in Triathlons and running events are there for the fun and to meet THEIR goals, which is to do nothing more than finish. Have you not heard the same bitching from marathon folks that the "walkers" are destroying their sport. This is why I keep suggesting it might be time to start with a blank sheet of paper and make a set of rules, classifications, etc. that fit into TODAYS customers, not the ones from 20 years ago. Both sets have/had totally different goals!!

Why not make a class of racers who have the no drafting set of rules on them. They are the only ones who can get a Kona slot or podium spot. What percentage of folks do you think would sign up for the we are just out to finish and have fun and you can keep all your snobby rules to the folks with the egos. It might be quite high. But why would WTC want to change anything. They fill races in a day. The same folks who complain keep coming back every year and giving them their hard earn cash.

Dave

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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as in "bank" drafting???
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [ In reply to ]
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What is bank drafting?

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not addressing whether or not WTC has any incentive to change things. I agree with you that in the short term they don't.

I'm not also not addressing whether or not they should change the drafting rules. My point was simply that for the rules that they have adopted, they need a more effective enforcement policy. That said, I don't think they should change the drafting rules. Even with drafting being illegal, there were some ugly pile ups from people riding in the groups. Second, I'm old school in what I think a triathlon should be even more so for those people that are doing it as some sort of life goal. If you're goal is to finish, why is not a goal to do it on your own according to the rules of the game? That's what I don't get. You just want to finish? Great. But did you really rise to that challenge if you cheated to do it? Yeah, I know you don't consider drafting "cheating". But as I said earlier, you don't seem to think the word has any definition. At the very least, you think it's a term that has to meet some subjective threshold.

You're analogy to marathons doesn't hold. People that walk a marathon aren't signing up with the intention of disregarding rules that they don't think apply to them. Few people sign up for a marathon with the intention of cutting the course or using rollerblades and then still calling themselves a finisher.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [dgunthert] [ In reply to ]
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Clearly the topic of drafting and many other things in our sport have folks on one side or another. We just have different opinions, and there is nothing wrong with that. The goal is to find common ground, which today I think we have by the rules. Now, if someone can convince WTC or USAT to change the rules, great, go for it. But until that happens, our sport is run by rules, not by folks opinions. You draft, you get caught, you get a penalty.
No big deal, life goes one. As I said, when folks start blasting the Pro's when they get a drafting call and call them cheaters, then maybe I will revisit my thoughts. Right now I do not think we apply the "cheating" comment for drafting the same across all that do our sport.

Dave

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Clearly the topic of drafting and many other things in our sport have folks on one side or another. We just have different opinions, and there is nothing wrong with that. The goal is to find common ground, which today I think we have by the rules. Now, if someone can convince WTC or USAT to change the rules, great, go for it. But until that happens, our sport is run by rules, not by folks opinions. You draft, you get caught, you get a penalty.
No big deal, life goes one. As I said, when folks start blasting the Pro's when they get a drafting call and call them cheaters, then maybe I will revisit my thoughts. Right now I do not think we apply the "cheating" comment for drafting the same across all that do our sport.

Dave
So if you dont get caught its not cheating? Rules are the rules even when people are not watching.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The other video is here same location on bike course just goes on through aid station where I pass and then get repassed by the same group. no music this time.
this is dual with front and rear view synched as close as I could manually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzghRuoUw2k

even better than the first video
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Now, if someone can convince WTC or USAT to change the rules, great, go for it.

I don't think WTC/USAT is interested in changing the rules. Look at all the free press they are getting right now in these threads. ST could be talking about a bazillion other topics (for instance, B2B) but IMFL keeps coming back to the top of the list again and again.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [ In reply to ]
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The large gaps with no bikes are because reality is not linear like the model. With all those riders in that limited distance, if they can't avoid infractions in a linear model how can you possibly avoid infractions when the fleet is not linear, and there are gaps formed ?

A quick recap:the rules state that a) you have to maintain 7 meters between bikes, so combined bike/zone is 9 meters, and b) you must ride on right side of road unless passing. Putting that many athletes on the road in a short time span will, under those restrictions, at some point on the course, result in packs forming. Experience tells us this - at IMFL, many other races, and during the morning commute in pretty much every major city in North America. And a pack of cyclists is like a big, comfy feather bed. It feels great when you get in to it, and it is really hard to get out!

Let me ask this, just for the heck of it - when IMs had 1200-1500 participants, was there a ever much discussion about how large the packs were? Better yet, ask the top 100 guys out of the water how many large packs they saw....
I agree too many people starting same time but once you get 5 to 10 miles down the road.. NOTE this video was 35 miles into the bike. Things are spread out there is plenty of room.
this group (some in the group not everyone) and others make no attempt to not ride together..
think this year because of the fast tail wind on front beach road first 5 miles it wasn't as bad because didn't take as much to pass folks. I pretty much year after year end up in the left side repeating "on you left" the first 5 miles anyway" once on 79 its very wide and it is easier to pass folks which lends to another poster talking about road width it is a factor.
your assumeing everyone has to be lined up but actually if theres some passing they will be on the left passing moving forward as others are dropping back until things settle down.
you have to consider "Steady State conditions" your assuming bam at time zero all these bikes are on the road and have to be exactly 7 meters apart in a line.
no theres the initial IMPULSE(sorry my old engineering class work is coming back to me) response then its settles down to the steady state on down the road with some outliers along the way.

PLEASE Some statistical Queueing theory Brainiacs CHIME IN because my total knowledge on all of this is minimul...

yes probably most of these riders are all in the same comfort zone riding so they will clump together but its up to the athlete to force the issue. Some break away some fade back
OR do as the pros do they pretty much do a legal pace line and rotate to the front at least most of the time.. These guys are not they are just hanging and the one or two guys up front can't get away. I tried to get away a few times an in the past when I was better shape and younger I actually could break away from some but then they'd come back sooner or later.
the special needs stop before the turn breaks things up pretty well.. Adding some pinch points like that would help I think as well.
What I meant by non-linear is its more statistical over the length of the course. you have athletes with various abilities different speeds so just saying 500 came out within say 5 minutes
now way they can line up 7 meters apart. Well that might be true short term but this isn't a continous stream.. MAN I wish I was like professer epps on "Numbers" tv show.
Would be great if we could get someone like that to explain this or tell me I'm full of crap AND get him to figure out a way to maximize marshal use and other methods to
break up big groups in a finite pipe..
But if I could show you the hour 45 rear video feed I had you can see how open it is at times I really didn't see any big pack(more than 2 or 3 people not riding 7 meters) until 34 miles into the ride. I hear there were more upstream as well and I got passed by another one..
I've done this race 10 times at various speeds and times and almost everyone things started somewhere on highway 20 with a few packs on 79 going north. I do believe now its 4 lane and wide
now almost all the way then theres plenty of room to pass and get moving which is why I didn't see that as much but then we hit the head winds on 20 along with some auto traffic passing and coming the other way groups tend to bunch up..

This is not some new problem I'm sure some basic queueing theory like used in traffic analysis ,network traffic along with some human interaction thrown in
could lay some light to this.. I tried to write a simulation of ironman louisville back in 2007 I downloaded all the splits(the athlete tracker). they had 4 mat splits during the bike as well as 4 or 5 for the run as well as t1,t2. Not ideal because you have to either assume between mat splits they stayed at the average speed for that leg or get more complicated and figure in interaction with other riders,aid stations and so on but I got bored with it and moved on it took so long to download the athlete tracker splits(I wrote a program to fetch it with tcp/ip via the http link automatically). I might have to go do that again just to get the model built then if I can get better info expand that. But I have a day job and 3 more ironman races next year as well as more video to go through so might be a while.. Maybe when I retire.
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