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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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Wildside, are you in the video by any chance?
No. I think I was behind this guy all day. I just think that it is crappy to post something so misleading when he knew what he was posting. I said in my post there was drafting, no doubt. There were obvious wheel suckers that weren't interested in passing, I pulled some myself at times. There were also inevitable big packs that were riding at least close to legal distance or in the spirit of the rule and did bunch up at turns, intersections and aid stations. Especially early in the day. There was also the 3 and 4 wide passing that got to be a cluster at times. Not a perfect race by any means!

The people stopping to take a leak by the side of the road after being begged not to at the pre-race meeting mystified me too. Why can't people just follow the rules? I also saw some pretty fast folks running (pacing?) with non-competitors at times. Lots to bitch about but this video isn't it.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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With respect to wave starts. If these were to happen then perhaps a better way of having the waves would be more of a random nature (i.e. alphabetical etc). Having a broad range of ages and genders in each wave is going to reduce (even further) the number of physically similar people in close proximity on the bike course. Additionally, they may be less likely to sit in a pack because they no longer know where the rest of their competition is in the field. They simply can't afford to sit around waiting if they are after slots. The added benefit is it will do away with the whole calf marking debate!

Truly innovative enforcement will come the day each athlete is required to install proximity detecters on their bikes. Each with its unique identifier and each able to monitor the time spent within the legal proximity of every other unique identifier. Audible warnings given off when one is within the draft zone. A special alarm sounding when an infraction has been identified. Chips then returned at the end of the bike leg and can be checked for DQ's and sin bin requirements.

The run penalty is a great idea. Imagine having a 400m track setup around transition with all the crowd able to watch you. You're required to run at least 1km and then serve out any time remaining of a 5min penalty. Slow runners can start the main event immediately. Fast runners must wait it out after the 1km. It should be done in bike shoes or socks, not runners. That way, for multi lap courses the same track is used. For out and back there can be several locations along the route. If you don't serve it there you are DQ'd. Will separate you from the group you are drafting with. Also remains equitable in terms of no running shoes.

We can dream can't we?
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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  • The draft marshals did a good job. The disgrace lies with those who choose to break the rules.
Riccitello
Point of clarification if you don't mind - most IMs these days leave a lot of athletes with no choice but to break the rules. The sheer volume of athletes hitting the bike course over a short period of time makes it mathematically impossible for all athletes to ride legal, and still ride their own race.

At 32.5km/h, a cyclist covers 2667 meters in 5 minutes. The rules state that riders should keep 7 meters between bikes, so if you add the length of the bike then you need roughly 9 meters for each bike/draft zone. Those 2667 meters will theoretically accommodate 296 riders, if they are perfectly spaced.

Checked the IMFL results and found 280 swimmers exited the water between 1:05 and 1:10. They could, theoretically, ride legal. From 1:10 to 1:15 there were 405 swimmers exit, then 368, 306 and 277 in successive 5 minute segments. 2/3s of the field are packed on the course in a space that is too small to accommodate them and all still be legal.

Hypothetical? Yes, but I think it illustrates well the problem. Sure, some will be legal in that space, but only because there are also groups of 70 milling about three abreast in a space of about 150 meters.

I sympathize with you, having to answer for a situation that is not your creation. It's like the NFL telling teams to field 12 players, but instructing the referees to penalize a team for having more than 11. But this illustration, and the video from the OP, shows that for somebody swimming 1:12 it is highly probable they will at some point on the bike, be in a position violation unless they sit on the side of the road for 20 minutes until the steady stream of wheel-to-wheel riders abates.

More officials and bigger penalties aren't going to have any effect, unless the density on the bike course is properly managed so that the athletes intentionally breaking rules are isolated.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [ In reply to ]
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Response to Luga:

For IM

Wave starts with no more than 100 per wave (start them 2 min apart if you want, that's still going to put your entire field entering the water over a space of an hour and they will leave the water spread out by ~1:40 min instead of just ~40 minute). Less people to draft off in the swim will also mean a safer swim and also slower swim times (less draft), and less clumps of athletes leaving the water together so less peleton at the start of bike.

Dev
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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This was my first IMFL and last. I have trained for this race and was very prepared, all those who drafted obviously were not. Headwind to me is when i really can put the hammer down. To my point though, once we hit the head wind section I did nothing but pass riders, about ten miles in i discovered what had happened to about 90% of the riders i passed. They drafted off of me. That is BS. Hence i dropped behind the pack to legal distance and when the pack slowed i passed them for good. The choice is simple you can draft or not draft. This rider chooses not to.

Matthew
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Wave starts will alleviate, not eliminate, the problem on the bike, and they create a new one in the swim. If waves are grouped by AG will mean that the slow swimmers in the early waves will get tangled with faster swimmers in later waves, and all the drafting-at-IMFL-is-atrocius threads will be replaced by my-race-was-ruined-by-swimmers-beating-me-up threads and my-race-was-ruined-by-slowpokes-in-the-water threads. Seed by swim times and you may actually make the problem worse, because if people were to seed truthfully, then the 1:15 wave will all show up at the beach at the same time.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [ In reply to ]
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Your error is in assuming that spacing between riders is static. It is not, as riders pass and are passed by other riders. You can fit a lot more cyclists, legally spaced, in a given section of road than you calculate. In fact, the number of riders that you can support riding legally is limited by the width of the road, not the length.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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How is the best way to let you know you want to volunteer at the race to be an official?
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
  • The draft marshals did a good job. The disgrace lies with those who choose to break the rules.
Riccitello
Point of clarification if you don't mind - most IMs these days leave a lot of athletes with no choice but to break the rules..

And that continues to be the rationale for people who continue to draft and not care. While I see your point and I agree, there are too many folks on the course, it doesn't excuse the drafting. But everyone wants to hammer the first 40k out of T1 and nobody is willing to sit in and let people go by. So everyone jumps on everyone elses wheel and says "oh it's not my fault blah blah blah." Yes it is "your" fault if you draft.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [ In reply to ]
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Your error is in assuming that spacing between riders is static. It is not, as riders pass and are passed by other riders. You can fit a lot more cyclists, legally spaced, in a given section of road than you calculate. In fact, the number of riders that you can support riding legally is limited by the width of the road, not the length.

Thanks for pointing out the fallacy in this argument. I was thinking the same thing.

I'm firmly in the "laps of shame" camp. Set up a 1/4 mile or 1/2 mile loop at T2. First infraction is 1 mile at least, second is another, maybe even 2 or 3. Third is DQ. The beauty of the solution is that it addresses 3 areas: eliminates the time gained from drafting (which current time penalties do not), provides a physical deterrent to drafting (having to run farther), and adds an additional moral deterrent (everyone, including friends and family, will see you doing the laps and know why). How long it takes you to serve the penalty is up to you, but the faster you serve it, the more you trash your legs for the 26.2 you still have to run.

Just increasing the current time penalties will not solve the problem because of the people involved. There are 2 groups that draft.

The first are the very intentional drafters looking to get away with as much as possible to reduce their bike split and save time. They want PR's or Kona slots. Increasing the penalty to 8 or 10 minutes would help with this group, since you'd most likely be negating any time benefit they gained and making their run that much harder.

But increasing the time penalties is not going to affect the second, larger group. This group isn't all that concerned about their time and are morally lazy. This is the "there's no way I could have avoided drafting" crowd. They get passed by a big group, don't want to drop back to let it pass, and decide that everyone else is doing it, they will too. Of course, they conviently ignore the fact that the pack was going faster than they were and will eventually pull away if they let it and that they'll be riding faster than they were the whole time they let that happen. Anyway, they don't want to make the effort to ride legally. For this group, adding 8 or 10 minutes to their time is not going to be much of a deterrent. However, you tell them they're going to have to run an extra mile or two out in the sun in front of friends and family before they can even start the marathon, and I think it would be a different story. It's certainly more incentive to ride clean than getting to spend 4 minutes on the side of the road in a tent resting and refueling.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I know riders pass each other. They also go slower uphill and faster downhill, they stand up and stretch, they slow down for aid stations, they get flats, etc, etc. I made sure that the words "theoretically" and "hypothetical" were in there for that reason. Doesn't change the fact that the rules mandate a distance that isn't capable of being maintained in a perfect setting, much less with all the variables of pack dynamics.

As for your statement about width being a determining factor, and that more riders can be riding legally in less space, I give you the following from the IMFL09 athletes book:

b. Contestants must ride single file on the far right side of the road except when passing another rider. Side-by-side riding is not allowed.
c. Overtaking riders may pass on the left for up to 20 seconds, but must move back to the right side of the road after passing.

Riding abreast is not a solution, it is a bigger problem than actual drafting. That is why rules specifically prohibit that from races, regardless of the width of the road.

A moldy water bottle to the person who can identify the reason why (Jimmy R is not allowed to play)
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [ In reply to ]
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Is the reason for not riding two abreast to limit the fistfights caused by a rider getting hit by a snock rocket or peed on from the abreast rider?

________________________________________________________
Ben Waite | Zipp Senior Design Engineer | The Power of Bicycles: Please contribute to World Bicycle Relief | Zipp | SRAM | Quarq |
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I know riders pass each other. They also go slower uphill and faster downhill, they stand up and stretch, they slow down for aid stations, they get flats, etc, etc. I made sure that the words "theoretically" and "hypothetical" were in there for that reason. Doesn't change the fact that the rules mandate a distance that isn't capable of being maintained in a perfect setting, much less with all the variables of pack dynamics.

As for your statement about width being a determining factor, and that more riders can be riding legally in less space, I give you the following from the IMFL09 athletes book:

b. Contestants must ride single file on the far right side of the road except when passing another rider. Side-by-side riding is not allowed.
c. Overtaking riders may pass on the left for up to 20 seconds, but must move back to the right side of the road after passing.

Riding abreast is not a solution, it is a bigger problem than actual drafting. That is why rules specifically prohibit that from races, regardless of the width of the road.

A moldy water bottle to the person who can identify the reason why (Jimmy R is not allowed to play)

If you consider the bike leg to be like car traffic on a multi-lane highway in which slower cars keep right and faster cars pass on the left (at least on this side of the pond), you'll understand why it is the width that is the restriction. There's nothing in the rules against passing someone who is passing someone who is passing someone...

I'm sure every decent cyclist has passed someone in a race who was in the process of passing yet someone else. You could have as many lanes of that as the width of the road allowed.

The legal distance is always possible without anyone delayed if the road is wide enough; in light of the fact that all roads are width-limited (except maybe that duathlon I did that was held on a Navy airbase's runways :-), only short delays might occur as one slows down a bit for someone engaged in a pass to move back to the right.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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I'm really surprised no one has thought of this ingenious and cost-effective way to curb all drafting. At bike check-in, just outfit EVERY bike with a three cameras and then DQ people who draft more than once during the race. I mean, how much could it cost? 10,000 cameras, plus a few thousand people spending 4-5-6-7 hours searching through video for violators? Drafting issue solved :)

_________________________________________________

Rather than look back and say "why?", look forward and say "why not?!"
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Deej] [ In reply to ]
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Good stuff.

Maybe I missed this already explored in the thread, but is there a reason race marshals can't employ this technology more and then apply penalties retroactively (like the doping passport in cycling)? Just that risk alone would scare the bejeezus out of anyone drafting with intent or intentionally not correcting a clear violation. This doesn't mean the course and wave format don't have something to do with this too.

Bumping my own comment - the technology to do this is cheap and easy to implement. 'If' WTC really cares about drafting why not film the race and have the threat of applying penalties retroactively always available? Cameras could be deployed throughout the course at fixed locations and with marshals. Combine that with race structure changes (staggered starts, waves, smaller fields, etc.) and 'real' real-time penalties (20min penalty box, run's of shame, etc.) and you'll get most of it.

Or, just make it draft legal. The swim is.

Head down, thumbs up, give'r
@barrettdj
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Deej] [ In reply to ]
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WTC doesnt care, they only care about the bottom line: MONEY. They care about drafting just enough to have their head official report: "Officials are doing a good job, and the majority of racers arent drafting". So WTC looks at it as if, "What we are doing a good job"!?!?



WTC has basically taken the responsibility out of enforcing drafting on the race (officials) and has put it squarely on the shoulders of the racers themselves (to make the decision to draft or not to draft).

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [ In reply to ]
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But it isn't like car traffic on a highway - it is in fact bicycle traffic on a highway, which means that you have inadvertently hit on a reason why 2 or 3 abreast is prohibited. On an open course, you can't have riders spread out across the road as that will cause all sorts of issues with traffic, race officials etc. It creates a seriously dangerous situation for the riders because vehicular traffic is then squeezed on the roadway and the risk of accidents is exponentially greater - as is the chance that riders in the vicinity will be involved.

The other reason? If three or four lanes of riders are spread across the entire road "passing" what about the guy behind who is actually faster than any of them? The drafting rules are very loosely written, and open to pretty broad interpretation, including yours. But I can tell you that the scenario you present will actually build the pack, not control it.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
But it isn't like car traffic on a highway - it is in fact bicycle traffic on a highway, which means that you have inadvertently hit on a reason why 2 or 3 abreast is prohibited. On an open course, you can't have riders spread out across the road as that will cause all sorts of issues with traffic, race officials etc. It creates a seriously dangerous situation for the riders because vehicular traffic is then squeezed on the roadway and the risk of accidents is exponentially greater - as is the chance that riders in the vicinity will be involved.

The other reason? If three or four lanes of riders are spread across the entire road "passing" what about the guy behind who is actually faster than any of them? The drafting rules are very loosely written, and open to pretty broad interpretation, including yours. But I can tell you that the scenario you present will actually build the pack, not control it.

You seem to miss the distinction between "riding abreast" and passing. Passing 2 or 3 or 12 abreast is not prohibited, as long as the riders in question are passing. If they just sit out there, then they are either drafting, blocking or committing some other position foul.

And I referenced the guy who is trying to get by. As long as nobody is blocking (which is a penalty), said speedster will be minimally delayed. And if they are blocking, then there isn't anything to be done, the rules be damned.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [ In reply to ]
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In the footage that started this thread, are they riding abreast or passing?
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In the footage that started this thread, are they riding abreast or passing?
I don't care. I was responding to your erroneous calculation about how many riders a course can legally contain: "2/3s of the field are packed on the course in a space that is too small to accommodate them and all still be legal". It just ain't so.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [ In reply to ]
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Open course, or closed course? Not that it matters:


b. Contestants must ride single file on the far right side of the road except when passing another rider. Side-by-side riding is not allowed.
c. Overtaking riders may pass on the left for up to 20 seconds, but must move back to the right side of the road after passing.

Last edited by: 'luga: Nov 11, 09 13:57
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [ In reply to ]
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In the footage that started this thread, are they riding abreast or passing?
most were riding abreast or slightly staggared in the two videos I posted one or two were actually passing as I was in the front rear dual video just after next aid station only to get passed by the pack with some of riders in same position they were 2 minutes back. just watch the videos closely.. I watched the scene this wasn't some happen chance video.
I've been planning on this for a long time and I know what drafting is and what blocking is. these guys were riding abreast and behind each other(not all of them of course).
I'll post some video from later on the course when I get a chance. The Hd helmet video was only when I turned camera on (due to battery life) the aero bar and seat post cameras were on continous just alot for me to go through Over 16 gig total between all the cameras memory cards so going to take a while.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Jimmy, how do you define "better"? No matter how many officials you have on the course, someone will ALWAYS be able to pull out a video if they want and show someone who was drafting.
So, how would you define perfection in a race like IMFL or clearwater such that you could tell the ST crowd that the drafting issues were "fixed"? What target are you shooting for?
Every person who ever broke the rules gets a penalty. If this is really your bosses goal, I believe you and they will be looking for work since I know I would never do a race with that type of attitude.
This is all about fun, not about life or death!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you going to call every drafting call when folks are going up a big hill at 5 MPH? There is just NO way you could ever have a totally draft free course unless no two bikes ever got close to each other
since things can happen.

So bottom line, what are your bosses telling you to do about drafting? I know that if you were my employee, either I would not be totally honest with you, or tell you what we talked about could not
be repeated since business strategies like this are not talked to with customers. I will bet you a dinner they are not telling you they want zero drafting, or they would give you a ton of money
to hire hundred and hundred of motorcycles, and marshals. Anything less would be just talk, with is cheap. Results speak the true goals.

Dave
its like everything else you can strive for 100% but your never going to get there but right now theres major problems.
Personally I see the big packs as the problem not the onesy twosy drafters...
Its the PACKS(I'm going to repeat) I have most problem with sure your going to have some folks cheat but this group thing has got to be stopped.

If they can work on a way to reduce the large packs with blatant drafting then who cares if someone comes up with someone drafting you can't get all of them but its these packs that
Pretty much can hurt other peoples races and could be a safety issue..

I posted the videos and yes I had the cameras at ironman louisville BUT you don't see any video from that race you know why? Because I didn't see any packs out there.
I had one guy drafting on me early on at louisville I reached back told him he was on video he went around me but my rear camera stopped for some reason early on.
BUT the thing is there were not any major packs out there. Closest thing to it was the first hill at 8 miles but everyone was going 7 mph(I have gps synched with my video of that)
but once we got out on the open road with more athletes than florida had start(2916 I think) and you did not have these packs.

Its just like on the highway I think theres some study years ago and they call them wolfpacks there are always groups of cars that seem to group together and hog both lanes on most interstates
its some social group interaction thing I hate that and try to stay away.
Same thing happens in triathlons. But if you can find way to break them up either time trial start,hills,extra turns. Pinch points(narrow road sections where they have to slow down)
less people starting then the major problem is solved and you can spend time on the individual drafters.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [WildSide] [ In reply to ]
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Why aren't we pointing out how dangerous Gary Holmes is for riding into an aid station with his fucking "Minolta" camera out in one hand? You see the porta pottys on the right at the end. What is his motivation?

There is clearly an Aid Station that's out of focus for this camera but would have been seen by the riders well in advance of the video starting, you can see the car parked across the road from it even with this short focal range. Of course people are sitting up to throw trash (as was threatened with DQ if not in the exact area of the station), going left to skip it or slowing to grab bottles. Both videos this guy posted are of aid stations early in the race.

Yes, there was drafting! There were also lots of officials on the course. There was also blocking and outside assistance and tons of pissing on the course even though they begged us not to. GHolmes needs to stop posting video about how people bunch up at early aid stations so he can look cool in front of his friends and call it drafting. This video is not relevant.

Flame away.
Why don't you watch the video and see I was not holding any camera in my hand. Watch the front rear one I was in my drops.
You bet I'm flaming because you didn't watch the video.. The first one started almost a minute before an aid station if you watch the second one you wil see them approaching from the rear long before that aid station. also later on they passed me back in formation.. I have other video I will post and they aren't near an aid station.. You think I made all this up.
I guess you also believe moon walks were fake...
the second video is the same as the first just different cameras but it also shows passing the aid station me doing what I'm supposed to do pass them as they slow down then they get back up to speed and come again... I think your in the minority in this anyway.. Bite me... is all I can say.
Look again I did not hold a minolta camera while going through an aid station. The handheld you see is an ollympus by the way but it was tucked away in my skin suit when I was in a crowd.
the other video was a helmet mounted camera and 2 go pro cameras hanging from my aero bar and on my seat post.. IF YOUD payed attention to the video you will also see me
going in an almost perfect line on the shoulder bike lane. the helmet cam yes I turn my head from time to time but I'm steady as a rock.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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We need the "this video doesnt really show what happened" crowd to show up and atleast keep it interesting. Thanks for posting.
yep and I believe he has proven the moon landings were fake as well..
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