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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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One thing that Jimmy did not mention is that he is totally dependent on volunteer marshals and motorcycle drivers for those marshals to ride on. Often there are more marshals than their are motos available. But sometimes marshals are in short supply as well. Jimmy said he had 14 at IMFL, but I know that he needs more than that. For example there were 25 marshals on motos at IMH. At a race like IMFL, my best guess is that you would need that many or more. However, perhaps not enough motos showed up or that's all the marshals that were available.

Generally speaking on a 112 mile bike course with a race field spread out over 40+ miles, the more marshals the better the coverage is going to be and the cleaner the race is going to be. Just being around riders is often enough of a deterrent to get people to follow the rules.

So here's an idea: If you are really this upset about the drafting - volunteer to be a marshal and if you know someone in a race community where there is a 70.3 or IM race, that has a motorcycle, make them volunteer to drive. This is one thing were, more is more!! :)


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Nov 10, 09 14:41
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [LoriT] [ In reply to ]
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If the bike route took a left on Hwy 20, then a right on Hwy 81, the terrain would help reduce drafting.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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Jim, great job at trying to do the impossible.

But, these minority comments on ST are a joke. This is a business. With 1 day sell outs, in this economy, WTC is doing a killer job!! I would NOT change a thing!

I would always get these type of minority comments when I was the RD of the LOP race. On some they were good inputs and I tried to change stuff. But, if I am the RD of the IMFL
race, I see nothing to change since 99% of the folks could care less about this ego stuff a few bitch about. I believe a number of the rules are 20 years out of date. They may have
been great when there were few racers, and the ego's were there. Now, the sport is totally different, which I love. Bottom line, I have NO respect for a person who signs up for a race
KNOWING what is going to happen, and then bitches about it. I will never consider Clearwater since why would I spend all that time and money to be in a draft fest. Now clearly many could care less and that is great.

I still think WTC should start with a clean piece of paper, and see what rules make sense NOW to use. I still believe just getting rid of the drafting rules like the ITU does makes the most sense since it is, and will continue to happen forever. Does this mean we might need new rules for aero bars, etc, maybe.

Again, thanks for doing a no win job!!!

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me like the race organizers are opening themselves up to a big lawsuit.

Does this video indicate negligence? I don't know, but if somebody goes down at the front of one of those big packs and takes a few dozen people with him, I'm sure some would consider this negligence and be looking for a lawyer. After all, the people in that pack are the ones looking for a free ride.

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [conehead] [ In reply to ]
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U SHOULD be DQ'd for crossing the center line, so go cry some where else.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [conehead] [ In reply to ]
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One thing you definitely deserve a "pat on the back for" is moving over to the right following your pass. There was that big shoulder on this road that appeared to be under-utilized by the people riding near you and passing you.

Your post also points out that there is an aid station coming up within moments of the time this video covers. This might explain at least some (though not all) of the congestion and sitting up that we see in the video.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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That rocks Gary, although I did see worse packs
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for catching the 190 people. That sounds like an unprecedented number of violations. Perhaps this will act as a deterrent for next year.


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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [p2k2001] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for catching the 190 people. That sounds like an unprecedented number of violations. Perhaps this will act as a deterrent for next year.

If you look back at one of my earlier posts where I did a little math on the time savings potential of drafting versus the cost of getting a penalty, and if you read some of the replies it generated, it would be clear that, even if you get caught drafting, there's almost no downside. You're still going to come out way ahead. So at present, the threat of getting caught and getting a penalty is not a meaningful deterrent.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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Like someone said for each offense add 5k on the run third offense DQ. That will stop it a bit.

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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Those videos are PRICELESS!!! Thanks for sharing and getting everyone fired up! I think Louisville is very similar, at least that first 20 in through the park....after that, it clears out. No excuse for these guys.


~~~~
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Jimmy, while we understand you were conned into the job, the way it is perceived, is that you are the CEO of rule enforcement. Rightly or wrongly the situation at hand at races, ends up being connected to you, even though you have no say in the rules and at times have limited enforcement resources. Its

We the athletes who want a clean race, working with the likes of you can make a difference. See my solution above for laps of shame....1 mile for first offence out of T2 before you can start the run, second offence 3 miles. For most they are looking at 8-40 minutes right out of the gate PLUS shredding their legs BEFORE starting the run.

The current problem is that the punishment is not a sufficient deterrent.

And for those who don't drop back when passed and immediately accelerate to try and repass and try to ride away from peletons, you are only making the problem worse. The moment you jack it up to 350W, the guy following you can keep up doing 20% or more less. You pull for 30 seconds and notice you can't drop anyone and the peleton just had a 350W pull with everyone sitting in at 250, 220, 170, 150W. Next the honest guy at the back thinks he can blow by the peleton and does a pull at 350W....guess what, the rest of the peleton can keep up. Suddenly the front of the peleton is moving at 350+W while the back is only using 150W. You get the picture. The front of the peleton is moving at an obsenely fast pace as each successive guy does an unsuccessful pull. Each person that tries to surge and drop the peleton is making the problem worse.

If a stronger rider pulls up to you, don't jack up your pace to pass him. You are required to drop back 5 lengths and you'll see that if I guy is riding 250W and you're only doing 220, no way you are passing this guy. You might do some cat and mouse of a few miles and blow your race, but let the stronger guy go. If you don't let the stronger guy go, you now have the start of the formation of a peleton.

If everyone would just drop back 5 lengths when passed, then the guy in the front is doing his real IM or half IM race pace, the the line up of guys riding equally spaced 5 lengths back each are doing their race effort.

For a sample, see the videos of the Kona pro race. I nice legally spaced line up of guys going at a steady pace.[/quote]
Dev-

I wasn't literally conned into the job - but you knew that.

Everything you say is true and I promise I/we are working on it. I see it (and saw it) from your perspective.

And not to steal your thunder regarding your "laps of shame" idea, but it was something I brought up at the beginning of my tenure, based on feedback from some Euro events that currently use a penalty lap system. Slowman even offered to sponsor the penalty lap and provide an incentive for the fastest penalty lap. Ultimately we chose the penalty tent system so that we can take a penalized athlete out of the race close to where the infraction happened and in hopes that we affect groups that form and prevent groups from growing bigger and bigger. In my opinion, if we enforce the penalties at the end of the bike, we will have bigger groups and more of them.

I'm for stiffer fines - but not so much that you discourage refs from making calls. I like USAT's time penalties for long distance races.

I'm glad you brought up the pro race in Kona. The male Ironman pros are an example of how well the system works when most of those involved take personal responsibility. I can leave a group of pros that are legally spaced and return 30' later to find them the same distance. This is not unique to Kona, where enhanced media coverage is an added deterrent - the same applied for the large pro men field in IMFL - where much less was at stake than in Kona and less people were watching (draft marshals and media). I hope that more people take notice of the pro men and act accordingly.

Thanks for the input and I'm listening.

JR


Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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I do group century rides in the summer. We can avg 25 mph for the 100 miles on flat to rolling courses. If I draft the entire time- my HR will be in the 120s on these courses (which are harder/hillier than the IM FL course). If I ride the same intensity- non-drafting- my speed might be around 22 mph. So- a 3 mph bump is 37 minutes- and you may or may not even get a penalty. Factor in that you would be relatively fresh versus very fatigued- and the answer is pretty clear and I'm not surprised to see the drafting.

Mark,

I do the same kinds of rides and I know the potential time savings of drafting is well beyond the .5 mph I used in my calculation. The reason I used it, is that I assumed even the cheats don't draft in those packs all the time at events like IMFL. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I assume you ride along, a pack comes along, you grab it for a while. Everyone starts to feel a little guilty. Folks who are bottling things up start to move over. Things spread out and slow down again. And so on. I guess I have to ask. Are these draft packs like one huge peloton that hangs together from start to finish with people sharing pulls at the front and with rotating pacelines and all? Are people working for the benefit of the group or are they just taking advantage of it until they can get clear of it? I know it's a violation in either case, but if they're working together for mutual benefit, then that's pretty darned outrageous.

Call me naive.

Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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I'd use "Loser" by Beck as a soundtrack.


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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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sometimes Jim Riccitello the wtc head referee is on this board. Jim, this is a disgrace. please explain how it happens on your watch. please also explain why the rules variations for wtc events ask for a lesser time penalty for drafting? usat rules say 6 mins for first offense and 12 minutes for second offense. wtc is less. why?

as long as races fill up there won't be any change. what happens when the equity group sells it in a few years, any ideas?

First of all - excellent video coverage from the OP ... and welcome to my world.

A couple comments - and not all of them directed at your post:
  • I am not an event director - just a person hired to watch for rule violations.
  • My job is not to prevent drafting, but call it when I see it.
  • There were 14 draft marshals on the course.
  • 190 people visited the 3 penalty tents.
  • We had a positive affect on many of the groups referenced in the video - I wish someone would have documented that.
  • We can't be everywhere.
  • There were PLENTY of athletes who raced fairly in IMFL - a majority.
  • We did not catch everyone.
  • The time penalties for drafting were in place before I was conned into this job.
  • I will continue to explore ways to discourage drafting and ways to better enforce various rule violations.
  • The draft marshals did a good job. The disgrace lies with those who choose to break the rules.
Riccitello

This sounds like the perfect WTC public announcement WTC should put out when people complain about their event (all the while WTC is laughing to the bank at how each event continues to sell out).


You should go into public relations, and get out of the headache that is officiating! :)

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: bad929: Nov 10, 09 15:27
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave- Thanks for the thanks.

In Reply To:
But, these minority comments on ST are a joke. This is a business. With 1 day sell outs, in this economy, WTC is doing a killer job!! I would NOT change a thing!

I would always get these type of minority comments when I was the RD of the LOP race. On some they were good inputs and I tried to change stuff. But, if I am the RD of the IMFL
race, I see nothing to change since 99% of the folks could care less about this ego stuff a few bitch about. I believe a number of the rules are 20 years out of date. They may have
been great when there were few racers, and the ego's were there. Now, the sport is totally different, which I love. Bottom line, I have NO respect for a person who signs up for a race
KNOWING what is going to happen, and then bitches about it. I will never consider Clearwater since why would I spend all that time and money to be in a draft fest. Now clearly many could care less and that is great.

I still think WTC should start with a clean piece of paper, and see what rules make sense NOW to use. I still believe just getting rid of the drafting rules like the ITU does makes the most sense since it is, and will continue to happen forever. Does this mean we might need new rules for aero bars, etc, maybe.[/quote]I'm not sure I know where you're coming from - but let me attempt a response:
  • You say, "I would NOT change a thing," but then you say "I still think WTC should start with a clean piece of paper, and see what rules make sense NOW to use." Pick one.
  • I don't mind people complaining if they feel the level of officiating they expected was not met. I can handle that.
  • I hear you though - some races are more prone to drafting than others - and it's not hard to figure out which ones.
  • ITU age-group races are still non-drafting (technically).
JR




Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

This sounds like the perfect WTC public announcement WTC would put out when people complain about their event (all the while WTC is laughing to the bank at how each event continues to sell out).


You should go into public relations, and get out of the headache that is officiating! :)[/quote]Trust me- they don't pay me enough to kiss @ss.

JR

PS- are you hiring? :)


Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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First thanks for responding to this thread, and for the impossible task you do. Here are some questions that have arisen:

Why doesn't WTC demand wave or time trial starts for the races with the most egregious examples of drafting/blocking? As a first step, it seems like a no-brainer (to reduce the rider density and spread out riders of similar abilities).

Given the enormous advantage to be gained from drafting, do you think the penalties are severe enough?

Who should we contact at WTC to complain (and would it matter one iota)?
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I've uploaded my first video of the pelotons at ironman florida this less than a minute section is about 34 miles into the race.
This is from my helmet cam. I have video from the handheld olympus(you see in my hands in video) as well as one mounted under my front aero bar and a rear seat post mounted camera I hope to post later as well as some worse packs than this one later on as well as this same pack after I passed them going through the upcoming aid station then they repassed me again.
Been wanting to do this for years and worked out the kinks at ironman louisville with the cameras so enjoy even though you won't see this kind of blatant drafting at louisville.

I tried to find an appropriate sound track using youtubes audio swap but they didn't have "your cheatin heart" by hank williams.

More to come...(this was my 10th ironman florida so I've been there enough to see plenty of drafting.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbLbHfj7CNY


Holy freakin' Moly!

If I wasn't crying right now, I would be laughing.

Might be time for us to give up on draft busting.........NOT!

Time for better enforcement. Yeah, I know it's hard, but we as a sport, have to do better. Surely we can find some way. At least good video like this is an excellent starting point.

Maybe offer your assistance to officials with your video technique etc, to help them as much as possible.

What is your video setup and how much did it cost to set up? How long to get it right and of course, since this is ST, how much does it weigh?

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [p2k2001] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Thank you for catching the 190 people. That sounds like an unprecedented number of violations. Perhaps this will act as a deterrent for next year.[/quote]
You're very welcome. Hopefully we will have twice as many marshals next year. That will help a lot.

JR


Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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Not saying you'll kiss ass. I'm saying they'll use your own words to justify/give cause for why they wont ever change the race format. When someone complains, they will simply say, "Our lead official reports": drafting isnt an major issue, the majority race clean, we busted nearly 200 racers, that the officials are doing a great job.

I dont think it really bothers them, but just in the off chance that people call/write/email them to complain/question drafting, they will simply use your stats to show that drafting is being handled properly.



BTW, thanks for you time and effort. I'm in no way saying you and the officials arent doing enough, or that this is the officials fault. I think the biggest solution, is getting more people out there to course marshall because I dont think WTC wants to change the current format of the race now. Thanks for doing a tireless and tough job. I'm going to become an official next year, and hopefully can improve the sport with the help of everyone in the sport.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: bad929: Nov 10, 09 16:04
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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Why doesn't WTC demand wave or time trial starts for the races with the most egregious examples of drafting/blocking? As a first step, it seems like a no-brainer (to reduce the rider density and spread out riders of similar abilities). I've seen similar groups in wave start races. I like TT starts and wish there were more of them - both as an athlete and official. However, maybe tradition has something to do with the fact there aren't more (speculating). I also think it's tougher, from an operational point of view - but this is not my area of expertise.

Given the enormous advantage to be gained from drafting, do you think the penalties are severe enough? I think stiffer penalties would help - but not so stiff that you discourage refs from making calls.

Who should we contact at WTC to complain (and would it matter one iota)? My personal opinion is that constructive criticism gets better results than complaining - but sometimes complaining feels better. Suggest solutions. I've had good results with Ironman using this approach. Try: athleteservices@ironman.com.

JR

Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [imf1271] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
There aren't more motors because the organizer is too cheap.

Wrong. The moto's are volunteers. The race kicks about $20 to the drivers, for gas, plus we get a t-shirt and a sammich. I've been a moto-driver for about 5 x IM's, WF, and CaliHalf. In the races I've moto'ed, several bikes have gone out on the course without an official.

In my experience, the weaklink in the officialsonbikes chain is the lack of volunteer race officials. For all of the talk I see race after race about drafting, the fact that over a thousand athletes are going to these races to volunteer so they get registration preference the next day, you'd think there would be 3 officials for every bike and that Jimmy would be turning officials away. Not so at all.

You can bitch about the problem race after race in a forum, or you could show up to a race and volunteer to fix the problem as a race official. Anyone reading this forum could do it, it's a blast, and you'll gain a very cool perspective of the race.

------------------------------

Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Not saying you'll kiss ass. I'm saying they'll use your own words to justify/give cause for why they wont ever change the race format. When someone complains, they will simply say, "Our lead official reports": drafting isnt an major issue, the majority race clean, we busted nearly 200 racers, that the officials are doing a great job.[/quote]
Drafting was a major issue in FL, and I would never report otherwise. The "majority race clean" comment was meant to indicate that there are righteous competitors out there, and not to imply that drafting is not a problem in IMFL.

Hello! Did you watch the video?:)

I'm simply stating that I will work within the system to do the best job I can do.

I get what you're saying and thanks for your comments. Without sincerely interested people - like most of those responding here - non-drafting tri will fade away. I don't want that.

JR




Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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Hello! Did you watch the video?:)


WTC's answer will be: "IF only the people in the penalty tent were on video tape, people would be more understanding".

I realize every year WTC will attempt to make things better. WTC and the officials will work on things, yet it'll be the same thing. Mass start, not enough officials, and lots of drafting. It is what it is.


I guess at this point, I've finally wised up to what this is. It's a business. IM FL is a draftfest that sells out every year, fills PC with people for week. Makes the local business happy, makes the competitors (it seems the majority) happy because they can do a fast race. It makes no sense for WTC to even try and attempt to change things. It'll change things when the money stops coming in. Not anytime before that. Sure, they will talk the talk about how they try and make things better, but in the end, it'll be the same ole same ole. So until people just stop going, it wont change (for me, I'm not interested in spending $500 on an IM race, when I can do B2B for cheaper and it's in my own back yard).

From people's comments it truely seems like the only course of action is to get more volunteers on the bike course. It's as if WTC is saying: If you want it fixed, YOU better do something about it, because we aint changing; all the while raking in the money each and every year. But alas, it's all business, and as such they are doing exactly what 99% of most businesses do. Making lots and lots of money, with the least amount of cost.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: bad929: Nov 10, 09 16:42
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