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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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Great example, are you willing to submit to a DNA test right now and other testing every day because people like you have been found guilty of rape?[/reply]
Your whole argument is based on a comparison of the WADA/UCI testing program and a governmental criminal justice system. That's a spurious argument. WADA does not criminally prosecute. It has no obligation to the idea of "innocent until proven guilty." All it does is suspend or ban riders from professional cycling.

The domain of WADA is elite athletes. The domain of a criminal justice system is everyone in a government. To suggest that they should have equivalent standards would be so restrictive to WADA as to make it essentially useless. (and it could argued it's already pretty useless) There are plenty of precedents for organizations that hold themselves to different standards than the baseline criminal justice system. For example, when you join the U.S. military you voluntarily submit yourself to much higher standards of behavior (and much lower tolerance for drug use) than a private citizen. If my current employer asks me to give a urine sample, and I refuse, they can fire me. And it's their right because when I signed on I agreed to be drug tested if I demonstrated any behavior my employer believed to be abnormal. They don't have to prove my guilt, they can just fire me.

Why should WADA be any different? Particularly given the overwhelming evidence of doping in cycling over the past decade.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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So instead of posting the number of positives to the number of cyclists to defend your claim ...
I really can't see what posting the number of cyclists compared to the number of positives would acheive. Should I include my gran in the number of cyclists? She cycled down to the village to get her hair cut last week.
You brought it up!
I questioned the number of positive test results compared to the number of dirty riders. It was you who changed it to the number of positive results to the total number of cyclists.



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you post info that shows testing is unreliable so even when someone tests positive we can't trust it unless they admit it
No, my post shows that those who dope don't always come up positive.
It also shows that the testing is not even close to 100% accurate.[/reply]Only in that dopers don't get caught. To my knowledge, clean riders have never successfully proved their innocence after tested positive.



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Of course, it would have helped his case if he'd had his DNA sampled to prove he wasn't involved with Puerto...
Misdirection...very nice.
Not really; he hasn't taken the chance to prove that he's clean when he's had specific accusations levelled at him.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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His mother is a hampster and his father smells of elderberries!
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [zebragonzo] [ In reply to ]
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So instead of posting the number of positives to the number of cyclists to defend your claim ...
I really can't see what posting the number of cyclists compared to the number of positives would acheive. Should I include my gran in the number of cyclists? She cycled down to the village to get her hair cut last week.
You brought it up!
I questioned the number of positive test results compared to the number of dirty riders. It was you who changed it to the number of positive results to the total number of cyclists.

My mistake, I misread what you wrote.



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you post info that shows testing is unreliable so even when someone tests positive we can't trust it unless they admit it
No, my post shows that those who dope don't always come up positive.
It also shows that the testing is not even close to 100% accurate.
Only in that dopers don't get caught. To my knowledge, clean riders have never successfully proved their innocence after tested positive.

I'll post one name that is simple for this forum: Rutger Beke (keep in mind I started this off talking about all sports). Cases like his (where people still think he got away with doping), the LA tests of '99 (where people still say who cares about chain of custody) and even Landis (where he was guilty but the tests where done so poorly that he should have been let off) show exactly what I mean.

To say that your proof of inaccurate testing only shows that "dopers don't get caught" is simply a case of ignoring what doesn't fit your agenda. Inaccurate testing means innocent people get busted AND guilty people get away with it.



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Of course, it would have helped his case if he'd had his DNA sampled to prove he wasn't involved with Puerto...
Misdirection...very nice.
Not really; he hasn't taken the chance to prove that he's clean when he's had specific accusations levelled at him.[/reply] But how does that go along with this discussion?

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Great example, are you willing to submit to a DNA test right now and other testing every day because people like you have been found guilty of rape?

Your whole argument is based on a comparison of the WADA/UCI testing program and a governmental criminal justice system. That's a spurious argument. WADA does not criminally prosecute. It has no obligation to the idea of "innocent until proven guilty." All it does is suspend or ban riders from professional cycling.

The domain of WADA is elite athletes. The domain of a criminal justice system is everyone in a government. To suggest that they should have equivalent standards would be so restrictive to WADA as to make it essentially useless. (and it could argued it's already pretty useless) There are plenty of precedents for organizations that hold themselves to different standards than the baseline criminal justice system. For example, when you join the U.S. military you voluntarily submit yourself to much higher standards of behavior (and much lower tolerance for drug use) than a private citizen. If my current employer asks me to give a urine sample, and I refuse, they can fire me. And it's their right because when I signed on I agreed to be drug tested if I demonstrated any behavior my employer believed to be abnormal. They don't have to prove my guilt, they can just fire me.

Why should WADA be any different? Particularly given the overwhelming evidence of doping in cycling over the past decade.[/reply] I am not comparing them. I am using an analogy about people outside of those systems making deciding that people in certain groups are guilty first and then must prove their innocence only after being accused. (knowing that this is impossible.) Innocent until proven guilty is not specifically a criminal justice system etho, it is smething most ethical people use in their lives.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I mean, really, who would call himself 'Francois'?

'Scottie18' is probably 18 so we should forgive him.

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [uli] [ In reply to ]
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I mean, really, who would call himself 'Francois'?

'Scottie18' is probably 18 so we should forgive him.
So close Uli, but about 20 years off. That was the number I have always worn in sports....and Scottie is my real name, so I put Frankie's name in quotes like he did to mine, clearly it ruffled his feathers...and Jordans and yours.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [uli] [ In reply to ]
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Geee...how about oolee...what kind of name is that?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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They deserve the right to have to be proven guilty before they go to jail or lose their job.

They do not deserve the right for the public to think they are clean, before proven guilty.

That is a right they must EARN

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1) What is the percentage of positive results to cyclists?

2) Even if the rate is not the same does that mean that one group (pro athletes) do not deserve the opportunity to have to be proven guilty?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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I don't have feathers, nor do Jordan and Ooolee. You're overly optimistic if you think that something like this would piss me off (or Jordan or Uli)...Well, clearly, you're an overly optimistic person, so at least, you're consistent.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Paula Radcliffe does everything she can to ensure that people know her performances are legit.
Takes urine and blood samples, have them analyzed, or stored for when better testing becomes available. She says it's a hassle, but it's worth it.
Why wouldn't Lance, Alberto, etc do that as well, even for just 6 months? 4 months before the Tour, during the Tour and the following weeks.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Just a reply to the entire thread.

Just thinking about it more after watching 'Le Tour' yesterday.

Depending on ones frame of mind, they are dopers or they aren't.


They dope testers could just test the top 3 athletes and that would be enough to know if drugs are being used. My understanding is that they do target these positions.

I think the bans for positive tests need to be much harsher.


It is interesting though thinking about whether a person would submit to a DNA test. I have watched a few high profile rape/murder cases in the N.Z. news and I do find it a bit of a worry that people get convicted on a hair quite often. My two concerns are that it would be easy for the cops to plant such evidence and also you wouldn't want to have been anywhere near the victim.

A bit like saying someone is teammates with dopers so that makes them a doper. Well not quite the same but it is all very circumspect.


G.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Geee...how about oolee...what kind of name is that?
Wrong pronounciation but you do indeed have a point. :P

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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They deserve the right to have to be proven guilty before they go to jail or lose their job.

They do not deserve the right for the public to think they are clean, before proven guilty.

That is a right they must EARN

In Reply To:
1) What is the percentage of positive results to cyclists?

2) Even if the rate is not the same does that mean that one group (pro athletes) do not deserve the opportunity to have to be proven guilty?


Why must someone who has never done anything wrong prove he is innocent simply because of his profession?

What do you do for a living? Would you be ok with this standard being used for you?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [triathlonshots] [ In reply to ]
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A bit like saying someone is teammates with dopers so that makes them a doper. Well not quite the same but it is all very circumspect.

Unless you consider what we know about systematic doping.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Vayer's estimate was actually 550 W, not the 490 W quoted by cyclingnews.com....so it would seem that we are in the same ballpark (which isn't very surprising, really).

Woah..how much does Vayer think Contador weighs??

Alex came up with an estimate of ~390-420W...which means that Vayer is off by ~150W. That's pretty bad.

You know, Sorenson's file of the climb is out there...one would think that would be the best source to "calibrate" AC's power estimate against. Yeah, it won't be super-accurate...but heck, I'm sure it'll be closer than 150W :-)

Getting back to the original thread... - where you and RChung mention the calculations are flawed, it's hard to compare, assumptions are wrong-, weights are wrong, winds aren't right, people hit publish way too quickly. etc. LA, himself- confirms that at HIS BEST- Contador would have kicked his butt. Lance is a data / power nut. LA KNOWS CONTADORS power. He KNOWS his POWER and he knows both riders weights. Lance knows his W/Kg... case closed. Which tree do you want to pick apart on this one? :) I know it will be hard for you and RCHUNG to read this interview- so feel free to pass... ;)

Lance is taking a page out of Lemond's book, too- he won a virtual 8 tours- if he raced in 2008.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk:80/...g/article6725620.ece July 24, 2009

That, at least, was the preconception. For the first time since he started winning this race, the seven-times champion has had his athletic limitations unarguably exposed. And yes, he is a 37-year-old on a comeback and his achievements here, by normal standards, would be considered astounding.
Over the course of an hour, he makes some fairly astonishing claims: that he mistimed his comeback by a year because his present form would have won him the Tour in 2008; that Alberto Contador, with whom he has done battle this year and to whom he now concedes defeat, is a faster climber than he ever was.
Most astonishing of all, though, is not his bright, delighted-to-see-you, post-race demeanour, but the contention that losing does not really hurt.

“I think people expect me to be devastated when I was ridden away from,” he said. “It's not that way. You see, despite being two minutes down, it wasn't life or death like it perhaps was before. Interesting perspective from the team that night after Verbier [on Sunday, when he could not keep pace with Contador]: people expected me to be just devastated. And the messages I got on my phone: 'Is it OK?'
“Of course I'd like to be winning. I came with the intention of winning, but we did the race, we went up hard hills and people rode away. I'm cool with that.”

But you cannot be, comes the contention. You are the alpha male of alpha males, seven unbeaten and now fallible, this is surely hell on two wheels? “For those seven years it would have been, but not now,” he said. “I have no regrets at all. I've got no reason to lie.”
The yellow jersey out of reach and Armstrong happy; chew on that as you will, we will return to the subject. But this is how it felt to concede defeat; there were shreds of evidence, but none as conclusive as Sunday up to Verbier.
“That was the first true test,” he said. “I followed a couple of attacks and I was on the ropes. I knew that I was just going to be surviving. And in this game when you get on the ropes, you get into debt and, on an uphill finish, it's hard to come back.
“My problem - not that it's a problem - the issue has been the red line, the fifth gear, for whatever reason, age, time away, or you could theorise. Today, when I get on the bike, I feel fresh, but I don't have that punch. I don't have that acceleration, that high-end speed on the climbs which I had before. So the last two mountain stages [after Verbier] I just followed my tempo and not those attacks.”
Were you therein admitting that you could no longer win? “I'm not going to do an Alpe d'Huez 2001 [one of his great climbs], not this year, it's just not going to happen,” he said. “I'll be 38 next year so there's no promises then, but I'll give it a shot.”
Next year, indeed, is fascinating, as is Armstrong's candour on the subject of Contador. The Texan's decision to return was based largely on watching last year's Tour, from which Contador was absent - “the level I have today would have won '08,” he said - but on that road to Verbier, he encountered a man who “was faster than I ever was. That performance would have ridden away from me on Alpe d'Huez 2001. He's very hard to beat.”
So if you acknowledge that there is now another rider - Contador - indisputably superior, why put yourself through more punishment? “I think the smartest guys in the room would say that next year I ought to be better because I'll have a season under my belt and I don't think between 37 and 38 is the tipping point where you head for the nursing home,” he said.
Armstrong says that the time away might have cost him that fifth gear. “Perhaps I'm just being optimistic,” he said. And he feels that Aspen, Colorado, was not the ideal training ground, “but that might be me dreaming s*** up”. “But look, I'll work hard for next year and if I get ridden away from again, it's all right,” he said.
While it may not need to be accentuated that this all-smiling global icon is not exactly behaving to type, bear in mind that it is not only here in the Palace de Menthon that the charm offensive has been waged.
In the past, he concedes, he has been pretty hard on people who got in his way. “Definitely in the past,” he said. “Before, I would tell the guys in the team, 'You're not talking to anybody. We're here to race, three weeks; you can talk to your friends afterwards.' Now the rest of the peloton see me and think, 'He actually talks to us!' ”
A reminder of Armstrong's old standing in the Tour de France is his acknowledgement of the reaction of ASO, the French owner of the Tour, to his desire to return to the event. “I wouldn't say that they were thrilled with the idea,” he said. “If Patrice Clerc [head of the Tour until January] was still in charge of ASO, it's safe to say I wouldn't be here.”
The starkest example of how far Armstrong has gone to cuddle old enemies was his insistence that his pre-stage daily interviews on Versus TV, the American broadcaster, be with Frankie Andreu. This raises interesting questions: Armstrong and Andreu had been long-term team-mates but, in 2006, when called as a witness in a case that Armstrong had taken against a company over a $5 million (now about £3 million) bonus they were refusing to pay, Andreu gave evidence against Armstrong.
The litigation raised the question whether Armstrong might have used illegal performance-enhancing drugs and Andreu gave evidence about what appeared to have been a mea culpa by Armstrong while he was ill in hospital with cancer. Armstrong vehemently denied Andreu's claims and won the case. But the fact was that, from two years before the case until the present Tour, Armstrong and Andreu barely exchanged a word.
Why, then, ask Andreu to interview him daily? “I don't have anything against Frankie, personally,” Armstrong said. “It's been a pleasure. Frankie's a good guy.”
Is it not the case that it looks good for you to be seen being friendly with Andreu? “If he called me off the record and said, 'Hey, let's go have a beer, I'd say yeah,' ” he said. “Maybe it's part of the same thing that's changed from before. I'm more relaxed about this stuff and that's an authentic answer, it's not a game
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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Getting back to the original thread... - where you and RChung mention the calculations are flawed, it's hard to compare, assumptions are wrong-, weights are wrong, winds aren't right, people hit publish way too quickly. etc.

We aren't the only ones BTW...

http://www.sportsscientists.com/...contador-vo2max.html

Hmmm...it looks like the guys who basically started this whole "hub-bub" are basically at the point that they agree with my original assessment that Alex's estimations are most likely the closest to the "truth".


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LA, himself- confirms that at HIS BEST- Contador would have kicked his butt. Lance is a data / power nut. LA KNOWS CONTADORS power. He KNOWS his POWER and he knows both riders weights. Lance knows his W/Kg... case closed. Which tree do you want to pick apart on this one? :) I know it will be hard for you and RCHUNG to read this interview- so feel free to pass... ;)

What's your point? Why would it be hard for me to read? Nothing he says in there relates to whether or not what AC did on Verbier was "believable" or not. If you don't think that 420W power output for a 20 minute climb isn't achievable "naturally aspirated" from a world class climber, well then...you probably haven't looked at too many power files, have you?

Dang...you just ran into another tree. If you keep doing it, that's going to leave a mark... ;-)

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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They don't have to. None of them do, they get paid and have fun and we still watch and all is well.

As a software developer I would be ok with any rational assumptions being made about my peer group.

I do in fact, drink a lot of caffeine...

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Why must someone who has never done anything wrong prove he is innocent simply because of his profession?

What do you do for a living? Would you be ok with this standard being used for you?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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Getting back to the original thread... - where you and RChung mention the calculations are flawed, it's hard to compare, assumptions are wrong-, weights are wrong, winds aren't right, people hit publish way too quickly. etc. LA, himself- confirms that at HIS BEST- Contador would have kicked his butt. Lance is a data / power nut. LA KNOWS CONTADORS power. He KNOWS his POWER and he knows both riders weights. Lance knows his W/Kg... case closed. Which tree do you want to pick apart on this one? :) I know it will be hard for you and RCHUNG to read this interview- so feel free to pass... ;)

Lance is taking a page out of Lemond's book, too- he won a virtual 8 tours- if he raced in 2008.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk:80/...g/article6725620.ece July 24, 2009

[..]

“I'm not going to do an Alpe d'Huez 2001 [one of his great climbs], not this year, it's just not going to happen,” he said.

Well, glad you brought up that 2001 Alpe d'Huez quote. Here's the graphic that you linked to earlier, with Vayer's estimate for 2004:

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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If you don't think that 420W power output for a 20 minute climb isn't achievable "naturally aspirated" from a world class climber, well then...you probably haven't looked at too many power files, have you? \\

Bjorn has done I believe about 455 watts for 45 minutes here on our climb..Granted he has to pull a lot more weight than Contador, and thus has the ability to generate more power overall, but it is still a big number. I have no trouble believing that Contador can hold 420 watts for 20 minutes. I will not spectulate on how he does it though, I just hope that most the guys are riding clean these days. I know for Lance, it wouldn't just be some positve that put him out for two years, it would ruin his entire career, his ability to head the Livestrong foundation, and his future plans whatever they are. It is a really big deal for him, so I am assuming that he would not take any risk there. It would not be a David Millar, or De Luca, or Tyler, or or even Floyd type of bust. It would be more like a Ben Johnson scenario, gone from the public eye forever in shame. I honestly do not think he would risk it all now for what just seems like him having some fun again....
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Getting back to the original thread... - where you and RChung mention the calculations are flawed, it's hard to compare, assumptions are wrong-, weights are wrong, winds aren't right, people hit publish way too quickly. etc.

We aren't the only ones BTW...

http://www.sportsscientists.com/...contador-vo2max.html

Hmmm...it looks like the guys who basically started this whole "hub-bub" are basically at the point that they agree with my original assessment that Alex's estimations are most likely the closest to the "truth".


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LA, himself- confirms that at HIS BEST- Contador would have kicked his butt. Lance is a data / power nut. LA KNOWS CONTADORS power. He KNOWS his POWER and he knows both riders weights. Lance knows his W/Kg... case closed. Which tree do you want to pick apart on this one? :) I know it will be hard for you and RCHUNG to read this interview- so feel free to pass... ;)

What's your point? Why would it be hard for me to read? Nothing he says in there relates to whether or not what AC did on Verbier was "believable" or not. If you don't think that 420W power output for a 20 minute climb isn't achievable "naturally aspirated" from a world class climber, well then...you probably haven't looked at too many power files, have you?

Dang...you just ran into another tree. If you keep doing it, that's going to leave a mark... ;-)
show me a W/Kg power file of a rider that's 7.25 W/Kg 2 weeks into a grand tour for a 22 minute climb. I know you dismiss Lemond- but he said riders and himself (with his own power data)- are about 10-15% weaker as the tour progresses (for CLEAN riders)- b/c of fatigue, reduced recovery, and reduced Hematacrit levels- and research backs this up, too- especially for a climb at the end of a stage. Coggan's statement didn't reflect any of this, either. So if Contador is clean and rested- he should be about 10-15% higher for his W/Kg- so maybe it's easier for you to show a file (as I'm sure you've seen many from your statement)- of a rider producing 8.34 W/Kg for a 22 minute stretch. Feel free to share it with the forum, Tom A. (and you can keep the rider anomynous).
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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I know you dismiss Lemond- but he said riders and himself (with his own power data)- are about 10-15% weaker as the tour progresses (for CLEAN riders)- b/c of fatigue, reduced recovery, and reduced Hematacrit levels- and research backs this up, too-\\

I don't know about the resarch on this, and Lemond's statements are from a time when power meters were in the dark ages, so I would not trust any of that data as accurate. Hell, there was probably a +/- on those things of 10% to 15 %.

What I do know is that a lot of riders go into the tour at a level they call fresh. They are not shaved and tapered for day one. They plan to ride into shape at some point, and become stronger as the tour progresses. I have only done an 8 day stage race, but I can attest that I did some of my best climbing late in that race, climbing I could not do in a one day race. Secondly, even if those numbers have some validity, they are not across the board. There will be a bell curve, so riders going worse, and some going better, with outlyers on both ends. I would expect that the biggest possibility of an outlyer on the positve end, would be the guy that is not only the strongest, but has done the least amount of work comparitivly. I think we all know who is the strongest rider is, and has only had to break his own wind at the end of one stage, and the tt's. So one could assume that Contador has the best possibility of being that outlyer at the positive end since he has done the least amount of work as compared to most of the others. He is the only guy in the race who has not been dropped, so we can assume he has not gone to the well too often, if at all. (besides the tt's)

So trying to pin this formula of yours on a paticular guy I think is just nonsense....
Last edited by: monty: Jul 24, 09 14:56
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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They deserve the right to have to be proven guilty before they go to jail or lose their job.

They do not deserve the right for the public to think they are clean, before proven guilty.

That is a right they must EARN

In Reply To:
1) What is the percentage of positive results to cyclists?

2) Even if the rate is not the same does that mean that one group (pro athletes) do not deserve the opportunity to have to be proven guilty?
Why must someone who has never done anything wrong prove he is innocent simply because of his profession?

What do you do for a living? Would you be ok with this standard being used for you?

I think jack put it best in another thread, as for the concept of 'Innocent until proven guilty':

This is a concept which americans and others decided to apply as a legal standard.

Not something to regulate opinions.

Would you let an accused, but not yet convicted, child molestor babysit your kids?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Bum] [ In reply to ]
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Hmmm. I bet Billy Mills 10K in Tokyo doesn't sit well either. Dude goes through the 5K 1 second off his PR, and holds it for another 5K, beating the world champ, winning the gold medal, and PRing by nearly 2 minutes. Sometimes these guys really are this good. Too bad we now never know if they are legit. That's the real damage that dopers do to sport.

can't watch that w/o goose bumps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7A_QUlMbvY
4:56 in.

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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show me a W/Kg power file of a rider that's 7.25 W/Kg 2 weeks into a grand tour for a 22 minute climb. I know you dismiss Lemond- but he said riders and himself (with his own power data)- are about 10-15% weaker as the tour progresses (for CLEAN riders)- b/c of fatigue, reduced recovery, and reduced Hematacrit levels- and research backs this up, too- especially for a climb at the end of a stage. Coggan's statement didn't reflect any of this, either. So if Contador is clean and rested- he should be about 10-15% higher for his W/Kg- so maybe it's easier for you to show a file (as I'm sure you've seen many from your statement)- of a rider producing 8.34 W/Kg for a 22 minute stretch. Feel free to share it with the forum, Tom A. (and you can keep the rider anomynous).
I'm not sure where you get 7.25 w/kg from? Contador is 60kg. So even at 420, that's a max of 7 w/kg. And 420 may not even be correct. It is entirely possible it was "only" 390, which would net out to 6.5 w/kg. But even 7w/kg is plenty reasonable for a world class climber for that duration. And that's assuming he's not 61 or 62kg, which is basically the "same" as 60kg to reporters, but which makes a pretty big difference when you are calculating w/kg.

Lemond's assertion about fatigue is impossible to prove, because folks do differing amounts of work, have different muscle mass (a smaller rider will recover faster, since they have less muscle mass). It also ignores non-PED forms of enhanced recovery. Look at the compression gear; compression machines; improvements in diet with respect to things like anti-inflammatory foods, anti-oxidants, etc. A lot more is known about recovery now than when Lemond was racing. An interesting take on this, for example, is Christian Vandevelde's article on VeloNews on the changes to his diet - one of the major changes was eliminating gluten. Considering how popular the pasta-based "carbo-load" was (and is), that sort of change is massive. All of those things would make a big difference to accumulated fatigue over the course of a grand tour.

I was initially quite disturbed by the VAM numbers, until others pointed out how much virtually every other rider on that climb smashed VAM records by. When you distill it down to w/kg, it doesn't seem nearly as remarkable, especially when you consider how sheltered Contador has been for the entire tour.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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