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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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not exactly, that is the standard we apply before we put someone in jail.

it is not the standard we apply for casual opinions and discussion

or the standard you would apply if deciding to let an accused child molestor, not yet found guilty, babysit your daughter.

i think top athletes in most sports, have earned the right to be guilty until proven innocent.

its just how people are, and always have been. champion are rarely the idealistic role models we wish they were, they never have been, never will be. champions are people who get it done, often by any means necessary. they always have the good qualities of hard work, never giving up

but they often have the darker side too. cest la vie

cest la tour
[/reply]Just wanted to reiterate your post. SPOT ON!

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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Lastly- Ferrari, should have tons of power data points- tons of them- for climbs in races, training, etc. So- for him to fairly accurately calculate VAM- knowing the watts riders have actually produced in the past- is not far fetched at all. We (fans) have a handful of data points- like one in 2009 TdF- he might have hundreds... Maybe it's time to see the forest and stop focusing on the tree.

I'm not the one focusing on one guy and his flawed estimates of power.

It's fairly easy to calculate the required power for climbs...and the equations to do so are readily available. Maybe you should see about confirming the physician's grasp of physics? After all, there are some posters on this very forum who have demonstrated that just because someone is trained as a physician, it doesn't mean that they have a good grasp of basic physics ;-) I'd put my money on Alex Simmons being able to give a better estimate of the power required than Dr. Ferrari.

To paraphrase Mr. Chung...my general impression is that mlinenb is a bit too quick to hit the "publish" button...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Jul 21, 09 8:34
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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(don't mean to point you out personally just trying to respond)

did anybody look at this one?

French Sports minister Roselyne Bachelot confirmed on Thursday that Astana team riders at the Tour de France stayed too long out of sight of an UCI inspector during a random doping test last week.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...-test-avoidance.html

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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French Sports minister Roselyne Bachelot confirmed on Thursday that Astana team riders at the Tour de France stayed too long out of sight of an UCI inspector during a random doping test last week.

Well then both Lance and AC are guilty, both are on drugs and......AC is still ahead....


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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Lastly- Ferrari, should have tons of power data points- tons of them- for climbs in races, training, etc. So- for him to fairly accurately calculate VAM- knowing the watts riders have actually produced in the past- is not far fetched at all. We (fans) have a handful of data points- like one in 2009 TdF- he might have hundreds... Maybe it's time to see the forest and stop focusing on the tree.

I'm not the one focusing on one guy and his flawed estimates of power.

It's fairly easy to calculate the required power for climbs...and the equations to do so are readily available. Maybe you should see about confirming the physician's grasp of physics? After all, there are some posters on this very forum who have demonstrated that just because someone is trained as a physician, it doesn't mean that they have a good grasp of basic physics ;-) I'd put my money on Alex Simmons being able to give a better estimate of the power required than Dr. Ferrari.

To paraphrase Mr. Chung...my general impression is that mlinenb is a bit too quick to hit the "publish" button...

I didn't publish anything original like the blog posts etc. Take VAM analysis out of the equation. Do you think Ferrari is not intimately familiar with numerous top riders wattage data- such as Lance?

On a different note- This is the first public rider comment that maybe thought (sadly thought) that this year would be a clean(er) tour.... how naive can he be?

from velonews.com
The yellow jersey crossed a minute later, the balance of power unaltered between Saxo and Astana. The real loser on the day was Evans, who finished 46th on the day, nearly three minutes behind Contador.
"I'm out of it," the two-time Tour runner-up said. "I'm out of the race. For a place on the podium at least."
The Silence-Lotto rider then added, cryptically: "Physically, everything (is) fine. But for professional reasons I can't comment on the problems I've been having."
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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(don't mean to point you out personally just trying to respond)

did anybody look at this one?

French Sports minister Roselyne Bachelot confirmed on Thursday that Astana team riders at the Tour de France stayed too long out of sight of an UCI inspector during a random doping test last week.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...-test-avoidance.html
Were they both sweaty and needing to take a 30 minute shower? Like LA earlier in the year?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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On a different note- This is the first public rider comment that maybe thought (sadly thought) that this year would be a clean(er) tour.... how naive can he be?

Evans gets dropped, so they're all doping!?!

If you've followed Wiggins at all, you'll know he's clean.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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"But for professional reasons I can't comment on the problems I've been having."

I wouldn't automatically assume that quote has anything to do with doping. More likely, its the complete and utter lack of support that he gets from his team. Saxo has 3 or 4 guys, Astana has 4 or 5, Garmin has a couple, hell, even Cervelo, which isn't even a Protour team, has had someone to help Sastre.

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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Do you think Ferrari is not intimately familiar with numerous top riders wattage data- such as Lance?

I already told you what I thought of Ferrari...he's a quack...and he also plays loosey-goosey with the power numbers he throws around.


In Reply To:
On a different note- This is the first public rider comment that maybe thought (sadly thought) that this year would be a clean(er) tour.... how naive can he be?

from velonews.com
The yellow jersey crossed a minute later, the balance of power unaltered between Saxo and Astana. The real loser on the day was Evans, who finished 46th on the day, nearly three minutes behind Contador.
"I'm out of it," the two-time Tour runner-up said. "I'm out of the race. For a place on the podium at least."
The Silence-Lotto rider then added, cryptically: "Physically, everything (is) fine. But for professional reasons I can't comment on the problems I've been having."

Oh please...he most likely didn't want to say "Well...once again my team wouldn't pony up the money to get me some real help in the mountains. My team sucks."

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
(don't mean to point you out personally just trying to respond)

did anybody look at this one?

French Sports minister Roselyne Bachelot confirmed on Thursday that Astana team riders at the Tour de France stayed too long out of sight of an UCI inspector during a random doping test last week.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...-test-avoidance.html
Were they both sweaty and needing to take a 30 minute shower? Like LA earlier in the year?

IIRC, wasn't this the case where the UCI inspector showed up in the wee hours of the morning, and then realizing how early it was, that's when HE decided to wait and have coffee with the mechanics?

Sounds to me like another UCI/AFLD squabble with Astana caught in the middle

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Do you think Ferrari is not intimately familiar with numerous top riders wattage data- such as Lance?

I already told you what I thought of Ferrari...he's a quack...and he also plays loosey-goosey with the power numbers he throws around.


In Reply To:
On a different note- This is the first public rider comment that maybe thought (sadly thought) that this year would be a clean(er) tour.... how naive can he be?

from velonews.com
The yellow jersey crossed a minute later, the balance of power unaltered between Saxo and Astana. The real loser on the day was Evans, who finished 46th on the day, nearly three minutes behind Contador.
"I'm out of it," the two-time Tour runner-up said. "I'm out of the race. For a place on the podium at least."
The Silence-Lotto rider then added, cryptically: "Physically, everything (is) fine. But for professional reasons I can't comment on the problems I've been having."

Oh please...he most likely didn't want to say "Well...once again my team wouldn't pony up the money to get me some real help in the mountains. My team sucks."
I don't disagree with your statement, as Cadel has a record of ripping apart his teammates and their (lack of) athletic ability. That's why his statement is interesting- why hold back now if it was an attack against his teammates versus something else.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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possibly, are french not able to tell time?

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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I don't disagree with your statement, as Cadel has a record of ripping apart his teammates and their (lack of) athletic ability. That's why his statement is interesting- why hold back now if it was an attack against his teammates versus something else.

Oh, I don't know...maybe he's just finally realized that if he stays with his current team all his complaining isn't going to do any good. It hasn't in the past, so why would it make a difference going forward. In other words, he's given up on them.

Knowing that, maybe he doesn't want to look like a whiner in the eyes of any other potential teams to which he might switch? Does anyone know if Evans' contract is up this year?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Just Old] [ In reply to ]
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I was at a science center in NH last week. Right outside the mountain lion enclosure, they had the men's LJ record measured out. They pointed out that the mountain lion could clear 30'...from a standing start. They also had a mark on a tree showing how high a mountain lion could go from a standing start. It was 15' up.

That's incredible.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Does anyone know if Evans' contract is up this year?

He renewed last year for two years.

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [FJB] [ In reply to ]
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I was at a science center in NH last week. Right outside the mountain lion enclosure, they had the men's LJ record measured out. They pointed out that the mountain lion could clear 30'...from a standing start. They also had a mark on a tree showing how high a mountain lion could go from a standing start. It was 15' up.

That's incredible.

"With powerful, long hind legs, mountain lions can jump 15 to 18 feet vertically and 30 to 45 feet horizontally. "

http://www.nhnature.org/mountain_lion.html

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Lastly- Ferrari, should have tons of power data points- tons of them- for climbs in races, training, etc. So- for him to fairly accurately calculate VAM- knowing the watts riders have actually produced in the past- is not far fetched at all. We (fans) have a handful of data points- like one in 2009 TdF- he might have hundreds... Maybe it's time to see the forest and stop focusing on the tree.

I'm not the one focusing on one guy and his flawed estimates of power.

It's fairly easy to calculate the required power for climbs...and the equations to do so are readily available. Maybe you should see about confirming the physician's grasp of physics? After all, there are some posters on this very forum who have demonstrated that just because someone is trained as a physician, it doesn't mean that they have a good grasp of basic physics ;-) I'd put my money on Alex Simmons being able to give a better estimate of the power required than Dr. Ferrari.

To paraphrase Mr. Chung...my general impression is that mlinenb is a bit too quick to hit the "publish" button...
Last time someone put money on me it was for winning the sprint at the end of a two man 75km breakaway. As the resident "trackie" I was a shoo-in apparently. They lost their money, then had the temerity to abuse me for it! LOL

I have said if someone can help provide me with the data and assumptions used by the French scientists quoted in that blog or Vayer or whomever, I'll run them through the mincer, which by the way is based on the Martin et al paper*. All I've done is to solve the (cubic) equations in Excel.


And the comment about AC's climbing CdA being no-where near 0.28m^2 (that may well be true, but I have data from a simlarly sized rider that suggests it isn't actually that far off the mark), nevertheless, I made it pretty clear in my posts on the blog which assumptions matter more than others in terms of the sensitivity to the estimated power. The power estimate on a steep climb is not overly sensitive to CdA. It is much more sensitive to mass, gradient, speed and wind assumptions. And it would appear that none of those assumptions have been properly validated.

*Validation of a Mathematical Model for Road Cycling Power, by (Jim) Martin, Milliken, Cobb, McFadden & Coggan

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Alex Simmons] [ In reply to ]
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It is hard to compare VAM depending on the type of ascents (gradient, altitude): here is an analysis from Dr Ferrari, an "expert" ;-) (www.53x12.com)

VAM: Effects of Gradient & Altitude
By: Michele Ferrari
Published: 19 Jun 2009



When evaluating the VAM of a certain climbing performance we need to consider wind, drafting, asphalt conditions but also average SLOPE GRADIENT of the climb and the ALTITUDES at the start and end of the ascent.

There is quite a difference between a VAM obtained on an average gradient of 10% than one with the same value but obtained over a climb at 7%.
Over the years I have been putting together and using a simple formula which is useful when comparing VAM's expressed over different gradients.
For example, a VAM=1800 m/h corresponds to a different value in watt/kg, depending on the average gradient of the climb:

- gradient 11% 1800/3.1 = 5.80 w/kg
- gradient 10% 1800/3.0 = 6.00 w/kg
- gradient 9% 1800/2.9 = 6.20 w/kg
- gradient 8% 1800/2.8 = 6.42 w/kg
- gradient 7% 1800/2.7 = 6.66 w/kg
- gradient 6% 1800/2.6 = 6.92 w/kg

It is therefore simply enough to subdivide the VAM value with a certain number, between 2.6 up to 3.1, in accordance with the steepness of the climb (from 6% to 11%).

At higher ALTITUDES, barometric pressure and the partial oxygen pressure (PpO2) reduce by about 6% every 500m of elevation.

A very interesting study (J.Appl.Physiol. 1996;80:2204-2210) verified in laboratory how 11 elite cyclists (VO2max = 77ml/kg/min) presented an average decrease in their VO2max by 6.8% at an altitude of 580 m, compared to sea level values.

It is therefore opportune to consider also the average altitude of the climb when comparing VAM's obtained at different elevations; the intrinsic values of a VAM done on a climb starting at 200m asl and ending at 1200m asl (average altitude of 700m) and one done on a climb starting at 1000m asl and ending at 1800m asl (average altitude of 1400m) will differ greatly.

A difference in average altitude of 700m means a reduction of PpO2 of 8%.
In reality the performance on the road will "only" decrease by about 5%, because of a more rarefied air that reduces air drag for the cyclist and friction in respiration (less dense air).

I think it is reasonable to evaluate an average reduction in VAM values by approximately 3% every 500m of elevation, while still considering individual variations due to efficiency in pulmonary gaseous exchanges.

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [zebragonzo] [ In reply to ]
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If you've followed Wiggins at all, you'll know he's clean.
I corrected your post.

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [solarberg] [ In reply to ]
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it is reasonable to evaluate an average reduction in VAM values by approximately 3% every 500m of elevation, while still considering individual variations due to efficiency in pulmonary gaseous exchanges.
A point I thought worth emphasizing...
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I'm usually the last person to scream "DOPE!", but from watching previous tours and seeing the performance of those who were later caught doping, Contador is either the best climber in the world or is beating the drug tests (which from what I heard would be possible, but expensive and not without consequence.

I'm just glad (from an outside observer's POV) cycling is getting cleaner.


Ryan
Engineer. Duathlete. Roadie. Human.
CAPA Cycling
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [DuGuy] [ In reply to ]
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I'm just glad (from an outside observer's POV) cycling is getting cleaner.

Fixed your post for you too.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Alex Simmons] [ In reply to ]
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It is much more sensitive to mass, gradient, speed and wind assumptions. And it would appear that none of those assumptions have been properly validated.

There was certainly a strong tail wind up the base of the valley to the start of the final 8 km last Sunday. As for the climb itself I'm not so sure. I rode up it before the Tour arrived, and, overall, conditions felt pretty easy and I don't remember any problematic headwind. Since it switch backs there may also have been varying wind throughout its course.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [FJB] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for that.

;)


Ryan
Engineer. Duathlete. Roadie. Human.
CAPA Cycling
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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You're not alone. Lemond doubts the credibility of Contador, too and in today's interview- he refused to answer plenty pertinent questions.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...nning-time-trial-win

LeMond, who writes an opinion piece in France's Le Monde newspaper during the Tour, questioned Contador's performance on the final climb to Verbier on stage 15, which the Spaniard won ahead of Andy Schleck by 43 seconds and took over the race lead. The climb came at the end of a 207.5-kilometre stage that also held five other categorised climbs.

"Alberto Contador established a speed record: he went up the 8.5 km climb in 20:55. How to explain such a performance?" wrote LeMond. "He would have required a VO2 max [maximal oxygen consumption] of 99.5 ml / min / kg to produce the effort. To my knowledge, this is a figure that has never been achieved by any athlete in any sport.

"It is like a Mercedes sedan winning a on a Formula 1 circuit. There is something wrong. It would be interesting to know what's under the hood."

Two journalists, one from Le Monde newspaper, asked Contador his VO2 max. Contador refused to answer the questions.

LeMond based his article on data from former Festina trainer and specialist in performance, Antoine Vayer. He said the burden is on Contador to prove he is capable of his performance without the use of drugs.

"Given the recent history of our sport, doubt is required. It should lead us to ask ourselves about performances."

LeMond believes that cycling can use performance tests such as VO2 max to create rider profiles and detected if a rider has doped. He said it would be similar to how the International Cycling Union's tracks blood values in its biological passport it introduced at the beginning of 2008.
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