[/reply]Just wanted to reiterate your post. SPOT ON!
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [jackmott]
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb]
[ In reply to ]
I'm not the one focusing on one guy and his flawed estimates of power.
It's fairly easy to calculate the required power for climbs...and the equations to do so are readily available. Maybe you should see about confirming the physician's grasp of physics? After all, there are some posters on this very forum who have demonstrated that just because someone is trained as a physician, it doesn't mean that they have a good grasp of basic physics ;-) I'd put my money on Alex Simmons being able to give a better estimate of the power required than Dr. Ferrari.
To paraphrase Mr. Chung...my general impression is that mlinenb is a bit too quick to hit the "publish" button...
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.]
[ In reply to ]
(don't mean to point you out personally just trying to respond)
did anybody look at this one?
French Sports minister Roselyne Bachelot confirmed on Thursday that Astana team riders at the Tour de France stayed too long out of sight of an UCI inspector during a random doping test last week.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...-test-avoidance.html
Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com
did anybody look at this one?
French Sports minister Roselyne Bachelot confirmed on Thursday that Astana team riders at the Tour de France stayed too long out of sight of an UCI inspector during a random doping test last week.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...-test-avoidance.html
Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [msuguy512]
[ In reply to ]
French Sports minister Roselyne Bachelot confirmed on Thursday that Astana team riders at the Tour de France stayed too long out of sight of an UCI inspector during a random doping test last week.
Well then both Lance and AC are guilty, both are on drugs and......AC is still ahead....
Well then both Lance and AC are guilty, both are on drugs and......AC is still ahead....
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.]
[ In reply to ]
I didn't publish anything original like the blog posts etc. Take VAM analysis out of the equation. Do you think Ferrari is not intimately familiar with numerous top riders wattage data- such as Lance?
On a different note- This is the first public rider comment that maybe thought (sadly thought) that this year would be a clean(er) tour.... how naive can he be?
from velonews.com
The yellow jersey crossed a minute later, the balance of power unaltered between Saxo and Astana. The real loser on the day was Evans, who finished 46th on the day, nearly three minutes behind Contador.
"I'm out of it," the two-time Tour runner-up said. "I'm out of the race. For a place on the podium at least."
The Silence-Lotto rider then added, cryptically: "Physically, everything (is) fine. But for professional reasons I can't comment on the problems I've been having."
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [msuguy512]
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb]
[ In reply to ]
Evans gets dropped, so they're all doping!?!
If you've followed Wiggins at all, you'll know he's clean.
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb]
[ In reply to ]
"But for professional reasons I can't comment on the problems I've been having."
I wouldn't automatically assume that quote has anything to do with doping. More likely, its the complete and utter lack of support that he gets from his team. Saxo has 3 or 4 guys, Astana has 4 or 5, Garmin has a couple, hell, even Cervelo, which isn't even a Protour team, has had someone to help Sastre.
Swimming Workout of the Day:
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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
I wouldn't automatically assume that quote has anything to do with doping. More likely, its the complete and utter lack of support that he gets from his team. Saxo has 3 or 4 guys, Astana has 4 or 5, Garmin has a couple, hell, even Cervelo, which isn't even a Protour team, has had someone to help Sastre.
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb]
[ In reply to ]
I already told you what I thought of Ferrari...he's a quack...and he also plays loosey-goosey with the power numbers he throws around.
Oh please...he most likely didn't want to say "Well...once again my team wouldn't pony up the money to get me some real help in the mountains. My team sucks."
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb]
[ In reply to ]
IIRC, wasn't this the case where the UCI inspector showed up in the wee hours of the morning, and then realizing how early it was, that's when HE decided to wait and have coffee with the mechanics?
Sounds to me like another UCI/AFLD squabble with Astana caught in the middle
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb]
[ In reply to ]
Oh, I don't know...maybe he's just finally realized that if he stays with his current team all his complaining isn't going to do any good. It hasn't in the past, so why would it make a difference going forward. In other words, he's given up on them.
Knowing that, maybe he doesn't want to look like a whiner in the eyes of any other potential teams to which he might switch? Does anyone know if Evans' contract is up this year?
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Just Old]
[ In reply to ]
I was at a science center in NH last week. Right outside the mountain lion enclosure, they had the men's LJ record measured out. They pointed out that the mountain lion could clear 30'...from a standing start. They also had a mark on a tree showing how high a mountain lion could go from a standing start. It was 15' up.
That's incredible.
That's incredible.
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.]
[ In reply to ]
He renewed last year for two years.
clm
clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [FJB]
[ In reply to ]
"With powerful, long hind legs, mountain lions can jump 15 to 18 feet vertically and 30 to 45 feet horizontally. "
http://www.nhnature.org/mountain_lion.html
----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.]
[ In reply to ]
I have said if someone can help provide me with the data and assumptions used by the French scientists quoted in that blog or Vayer or whomever, I'll run them through the mincer, which by the way is based on the Martin et al paper*. All I've done is to solve the (cubic) equations in Excel.
And the comment about AC's climbing CdA being no-where near 0.28m^2 (that may well be true, but I have data from a simlarly sized rider that suggests it isn't actually that far off the mark), nevertheless, I made it pretty clear in my posts on the blog which assumptions matter more than others in terms of the sensitivity to the estimated power. The power estimate on a steep climb is not overly sensitive to CdA. It is much more sensitive to mass, gradient, speed and wind assumptions. And it would appear that none of those assumptions have been properly validated.
*Validation of a Mathematical Model for Road Cycling Power, by (Jim) Martin, Milliken, Cobb, McFadden & Coggan
_________________________________________________________________________________
Training Plans -- Power Meter Hire -- SRM Sales Australia -- cyclecoach.com -- My Blog -- Sydney Turbo Studio
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Alex Simmons]
[ In reply to ]
It is hard to compare VAM depending on the type of ascents (gradient, altitude): here is an analysis from Dr Ferrari, an "expert" ;-) (www.53x12.com)
VAM: Effects of Gradient & Altitude
By: Michele Ferrari
Published: 19 Jun 2009
When evaluating the VAM of a certain climbing performance we need to consider wind, drafting, asphalt conditions but also average SLOPE GRADIENT of the climb and the ALTITUDES at the start and end of the ascent.
There is quite a difference between a VAM obtained on an average gradient of 10% than one with the same value but obtained over a climb at 7%.
Over the years I have been putting together and using a simple formula which is useful when comparing VAM's expressed over different gradients.
For example, a VAM=1800 m/h corresponds to a different value in watt/kg, depending on the average gradient of the climb:
- gradient 11% 1800/3.1 = 5.80 w/kg
- gradient 10% 1800/3.0 = 6.00 w/kg
- gradient 9% 1800/2.9 = 6.20 w/kg
- gradient 8% 1800/2.8 = 6.42 w/kg
- gradient 7% 1800/2.7 = 6.66 w/kg
- gradient 6% 1800/2.6 = 6.92 w/kg
It is therefore simply enough to subdivide the VAM value with a certain number, between 2.6 up to 3.1, in accordance with the steepness of the climb (from 6% to 11%).
At higher ALTITUDES, barometric pressure and the partial oxygen pressure (PpO2) reduce by about 6% every 500m of elevation.
A very interesting study (J.Appl.Physiol. 1996;80:2204-2210) verified in laboratory how 11 elite cyclists (VO2max = 77ml/kg/min) presented an average decrease in their VO2max by 6.8% at an altitude of 580 m, compared to sea level values.
It is therefore opportune to consider also the average altitude of the climb when comparing VAM's obtained at different elevations; the intrinsic values of a VAM done on a climb starting at 200m asl and ending at 1200m asl (average altitude of 700m) and one done on a climb starting at 1000m asl and ending at 1800m asl (average altitude of 1400m) will differ greatly.
A difference in average altitude of 700m means a reduction of PpO2 of 8%.
In reality the performance on the road will "only" decrease by about 5%, because of a more rarefied air that reduces air drag for the cyclist and friction in respiration (less dense air).
I think it is reasonable to evaluate an average reduction in VAM values by approximately 3% every 500m of elevation, while still considering individual variations due to efficiency in pulmonary gaseous exchanges.
VAM: Effects of Gradient & Altitude
By: Michele Ferrari
Published: 19 Jun 2009
When evaluating the VAM of a certain climbing performance we need to consider wind, drafting, asphalt conditions but also average SLOPE GRADIENT of the climb and the ALTITUDES at the start and end of the ascent.
There is quite a difference between a VAM obtained on an average gradient of 10% than one with the same value but obtained over a climb at 7%.
Over the years I have been putting together and using a simple formula which is useful when comparing VAM's expressed over different gradients.
For example, a VAM=1800 m/h corresponds to a different value in watt/kg, depending on the average gradient of the climb:
- gradient 11% 1800/3.1 = 5.80 w/kg
- gradient 10% 1800/3.0 = 6.00 w/kg
- gradient 9% 1800/2.9 = 6.20 w/kg
- gradient 8% 1800/2.8 = 6.42 w/kg
- gradient 7% 1800/2.7 = 6.66 w/kg
- gradient 6% 1800/2.6 = 6.92 w/kg
It is therefore simply enough to subdivide the VAM value with a certain number, between 2.6 up to 3.1, in accordance with the steepness of the climb (from 6% to 11%).
At higher ALTITUDES, barometric pressure and the partial oxygen pressure (PpO2) reduce by about 6% every 500m of elevation.
A very interesting study (J.Appl.Physiol. 1996;80:2204-2210) verified in laboratory how 11 elite cyclists (VO2max = 77ml/kg/min) presented an average decrease in their VO2max by 6.8% at an altitude of 580 m, compared to sea level values.
It is therefore opportune to consider also the average altitude of the climb when comparing VAM's obtained at different elevations; the intrinsic values of a VAM done on a climb starting at 200m asl and ending at 1200m asl (average altitude of 700m) and one done on a climb starting at 1000m asl and ending at 1800m asl (average altitude of 1400m) will differ greatly.
A difference in average altitude of 700m means a reduction of PpO2 of 8%.
In reality the performance on the road will "only" decrease by about 5%, because of a more rarefied air that reduces air drag for the cyclist and friction in respiration (less dense air).
I think it is reasonable to evaluate an average reduction in VAM values by approximately 3% every 500m of elevation, while still considering individual variations due to efficiency in pulmonary gaseous exchanges.
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [zebragonzo]
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [solarberg]
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Rappstar]
[ In reply to ]
I'm usually the last person to scream "DOPE!", but from watching previous tours and seeing the performance of those who were later caught doping, Contador is either the best climber in the world or is beating the drug tests (which from what I heard would be possible, but expensive and not without consequence.
I'm just glad (from an outside observer's POV) cycling is getting cleaner.
Ryan
Engineer. Duathlete. Roadie. Human.
CAPA Cycling
I'm just glad (from an outside observer's POV) cycling is getting cleaner.
Ryan
Engineer. Duathlete. Roadie. Human.
CAPA Cycling
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [DuGuy]
[ In reply to ]
I'm just glad (from an outside observer's POV) cycling is getting cleaner.
Fixed your post for you too.
Fixed your post for you too.
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Alex Simmons]
[ In reply to ]
There was certainly a strong tail wind up the base of the valley to the start of the final 8 km last Sunday. As for the climb itself I'm not so sure. I rode up it before the Tour arrived, and, overall, conditions felt pretty easy and I don't remember any problematic headwind. Since it switch backs there may also have been varying wind throughout its course.
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [FJB]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Rappstar]
[ In reply to ]
You're not alone. Lemond doubts the credibility of Contador, too and in today's interview- he refused to answer plenty pertinent questions.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/...nning-time-trial-win
LeMond, who writes an opinion piece in France's Le Monde newspaper during the Tour, questioned Contador's performance on the final climb to Verbier on stage 15, which the Spaniard won ahead of Andy Schleck by 43 seconds and took over the race lead. The climb came at the end of a 207.5-kilometre stage that also held five other categorised climbs.
"Alberto Contador established a speed record: he went up the 8.5 km climb in 20:55. How to explain such a performance?" wrote LeMond. "He would have required a VO2 max [maximal oxygen consumption] of 99.5 ml / min / kg to produce the effort. To my knowledge, this is a figure that has never been achieved by any athlete in any sport.
"It is like a Mercedes sedan winning a on a Formula 1 circuit. There is something wrong. It would be interesting to know what's under the hood."
Two journalists, one from Le Monde newspaper, asked Contador his VO2 max. Contador refused to answer the questions.
LeMond based his article on data from former Festina trainer and specialist in performance, Antoine Vayer. He said the burden is on Contador to prove he is capable of his performance without the use of drugs.
"Given the recent history of our sport, doubt is required. It should lead us to ask ourselves about performances."
LeMond believes that cycling can use performance tests such as VO2 max to create rider profiles and detected if a rider has doped. He said it would be similar to how the International Cycling Union's tracks blood values in its biological passport it introduced at the beginning of 2008.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/...nning-time-trial-win
LeMond, who writes an opinion piece in France's Le Monde newspaper during the Tour, questioned Contador's performance on the final climb to Verbier on stage 15, which the Spaniard won ahead of Andy Schleck by 43 seconds and took over the race lead. The climb came at the end of a 207.5-kilometre stage that also held five other categorised climbs.
"Alberto Contador established a speed record: he went up the 8.5 km climb in 20:55. How to explain such a performance?" wrote LeMond. "He would have required a VO2 max [maximal oxygen consumption] of 99.5 ml / min / kg to produce the effort. To my knowledge, this is a figure that has never been achieved by any athlete in any sport.
"It is like a Mercedes sedan winning a on a Formula 1 circuit. There is something wrong. It would be interesting to know what's under the hood."
Two journalists, one from Le Monde newspaper, asked Contador his VO2 max. Contador refused to answer the questions.
LeMond based his article on data from former Festina trainer and specialist in performance, Antoine Vayer. He said the burden is on Contador to prove he is capable of his performance without the use of drugs.
"Given the recent history of our sport, doubt is required. It should lead us to ask ourselves about performances."
LeMond believes that cycling can use performance tests such as VO2 max to create rider profiles and detected if a rider has doped. He said it would be similar to how the International Cycling Union's tracks blood values in its biological passport it introduced at the beginning of 2008.