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Re: Smart folks, Physiologists, and those that stayed at a Holiday Inn last night: CALORIE BURN [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
KingMidas wrote:
, it doesn’t matter whether you use fat or glycogen to do your workouts. If you did a high intensity workout, and burned all glycogen, the moment you stop your workout, your body gets busy replacing that glycogen and uses predominantly fat to do that.

This is incorrect. It is impossible to synthesize carbohydrate out of fat. Your muscle glycogen stores will therefore remain low until you consume sufficient carbohydrate to replete them.

Actually, you’re wrong.
Fats become ketoacids, which go through gluconeogenesis to become glucose, which become glycogen. Your body has the stores to recover you if you rest.
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Re: Smart folks, Physiologists, and those that stayed at a Holiday Inn last night: CALORIE BURN [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
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KingMidas wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
KingMidas wrote:
, it doesn’t matter whether you use fat or glycogen to do your workouts. If you did a high intensity workout, and burned all glycogen, the moment you stop your workout, your body gets busy replacing that glycogen and uses predominantly fat to do that.

This is incorrect. It is impossible to synthesize carbohydrate out of fat. Your muscle glycogen stores will therefore remain low until you consume sufficient carbohydrate to replete them.

Actually, you’re wrong.
Fats become ketoacids, which go through gluconeogenesis to become glucose, which become glycogen. Your body has the stores to recover you if you rest.

I suggest that you retake your biochemisty course(s). There can be no significant net carbohydrate synthesis from triglycerides (note: glycerol is a carbohydrate). Following depletion of muscle glycogen stores during moderate intensity exercise*, muscle glycogen will remain low until you eat sufficient carbohydrate.

*Obviously if you haven't oxidized the pyruvate that is formed but instead have converted it to lactate, some muscle glycogen resynthesis may occur (especially if you are a rat and not a human).
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Mar 19, 18 7:40
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Re: Smart folks, Physiologists, and those that stayed at a Holiday Inn last night: CALORIE BURN [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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By some I was trying to refer to studies that indicate you can alter energy systems used to some extent by controlling the amount of fuel available - even to the extent of just altering a single meal before a workout. What do you think about that?

I am definitely not buying into any keto diets for athletes!!

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Smart folks, Physiologists, and those that stayed at a Holiday Inn last night: CALORIE BURN [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Substrate metabolism during exercise depends on numerous factors, but availability of substrates and the hormonal milleu clearly have a significant impact.

IOW, yes, what you have eaten recently (and also not-so-recently) has a large effect on what you oxidize.
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Re: Smart folks, Physiologists, and those that stayed at a Holiday Inn last night: CALORIE BURN [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
KingMidas wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
KingMidas wrote:
, it doesn’t matter whether you use fat or glycogen to do your workouts. If you did a high intensity workout, and burned all glycogen, the moment you stop your workout, your body gets busy replacing that glycogen and uses predominantly fat to do that.

This is incorrect. It is impossible to synthesize carbohydrate out of fat. Your muscle glycogen stores will therefore remain low until you consume sufficient carbohydrate to replete them.

Actually, you’re wrong.
Fats become ketoacids, which go through gluconeogenesis to become glucose, which become glycogen. Your body has the stores to recover you if you rest.

I suggest that you retake your biochemisty course(s). There can be no significant net carbohydrate synthesis from triglycerides (note: glycerol is a carbohydrate). Following depletion of muscle glycogen stores during moderate intensity exercise*, muscle glycogen will remain low until you eat sufficient carbohydrate.

*Obviously if you haven't oxidized the pyruvate that is formed but instead have converted it to lactate, some muscle glycogen resynthesis may occur (especially if you are a rat and not a human).

You can’t (or can) argue with everybody on Slowtwitch. You’re at the disadvantage that we all know who you are but you want to pick arguments with people even though you don’t know who the other person.
I don’t need to brush up on anything. I will write the book however, if I had the ambition.
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Re: Smart folks, Physiologists, and those that stayed at a Holiday Inn last night: CALORIE BURN [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
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KingMidas wrote:
If you did a high intensity workout, and burned all glycogen, the moment you stop your workout, your body gets busy replacing that glycogen and uses predominantly fat to do that.

I'm not buying the predominantly from fat part and would love to see links to information that backs this up. My direct experience is that hitting the carbs hard in the afternoon/evening after a sustained hard workout is essential to being able to ride hard the next day.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Smart folks, Physiologists, and those that stayed at a Holiday Inn last night: CALORIE BURN [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
KingMidas wrote:
If you did a high intensity workout, and burned all glycogen, the moment you stop your workout, your body gets busy replacing that glycogen and uses predominantly fat to do that.

I'm not buying the predominantly from fat part and would love to see links to information that backs this up. My direct experience is that hitting the carbs hard in the afternoon/evening after a sustained hard workout is essential to being able to ride hard the next day.

Hugh

My bad. Let me say that if you didn’t eat anything afterwards, that’s what would happen and any deficit you have.
Definitely, glucose absorbed through the GI system is primary.
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Re: Smart folks, Physiologists, and those that stayed at a Holiday Inn last night: CALORIE BURN [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
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KingMidas wrote:
I don’t need to brush up on anything. I will write the book however, if I had the ambition.

Good luck with that. Phinney, Cordain, and others have been pushing similar ideas for decades, but have still failed to change scientific understanding, simply because of the way the data shakes out.
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Re: Smart folks, Physiologists, and those that stayed at a Holiday Inn last night: CALORIE BURN [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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Spartan420 wrote:
The pace was just an aside. I do not subscribe to a calorie is a calorie theory. There are too many physiological processes in place, and too many complexities from person to person and from exertion level to exertion level.

As for the original issue. I ran on a treadmill for the 1st time a couple months ago (but been running for 10 years) cause it was too cold. It told me I burned about 60% more than what I know to be normal. In reality, I burn around 75 calories per mile at a 133 HR. At 141 HR, I burn around 80 calories per mile, but I burn less fat and more glycogen. So if I want to lose fat, it is more beneficial to run at the slower 133 HR and burn less calories.

If you run faster and "burn less fat and more glycogen", how do you think your body replenishes the glycogen?

If you drink a sugary drink and eat a bunch of calories, it is from your blood stream but if you don't, your body oxidizes fat and replenishes your glycogen stores. You will lose fat if you run fast or slow (as long as you don't pig out as a reward for your workout).

I don't have enough time in my life to parse out whether I am burning fat or glycogen. I train at multiple different paces and let my body work out the balance.

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.
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Re: Smart folks, Physiologists, and those that stayed at a Holiday Inn last night: CALORIE BURN [wannabefaster] [ In reply to ]
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Glycogen, broken down fat (ketones) both have their final state for usage called "ATP" . There is no excess, just enough for the energy demands. Thus the ATP derived from fat, will not convert back to glycogen to replenish stores in muscle. It would be great if more keto studies focused off pure carnivore based animals, instead of omnivores
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Re: Smart folks, Physiologists, and those that stayed at a Holiday Inn last night: CALORIE BURN [wannabefaster] [ In reply to ]
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wannabefaster wrote:
Spartan420 wrote:
The pace was just an aside. I do not subscribe to a calorie is a calorie theory. There are too many physiological processes in place, and too many complexities from person to person and from exertion level to exertion level.

As for the original issue. I ran on a treadmill for the 1st time a couple months ago (but been running for 10 years) cause it was too cold. It told me I burned about 60% more than what I know to be normal. In reality, I burn around 75 calories per mile at a 133 HR. At 141 HR, I burn around 80 calories per mile, but I burn less fat and more glycogen. So if I want to lose fat, it is more beneficial to run at the slower 133 HR and burn less calories.


If you run faster and "burn less fat and more glycogen", how do you think your body replenishes the glycogen?

If you drink a sugary drink and eat a bunch of calories, it is from your blood stream but if you don't, your body oxidizes fat and replenishes your glycogen stores. You will lose fat if you run fast or slow (as long as you don't pig out as a reward for your workout).

I don't have enough time in my life to parse out whether I am burning fat or glycogen. I train at multiple different paces and let my body work out the balance.

1. How do you know you burn those calories per mile?
2. It is highly unlikely that fat is metabolized for glycogen replenishment. As Andy said above, gluconeogenesis can occur with lactate and amino acids. Current research supporting the claim that Fatty Acids can be converted to glucose is not strong and typically centers around feasibility of such a process existing.

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
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Re: Smart folks, Physiologists, and those that stayed at a Holiday Inn last night: CALORIE BURN [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

IOW, the whole "1-hr window for getting carbs in for fastest recovery" thing is kind of a myth foisted on us by the exercise nutrition industry


No, it is what the data actually show: early refeeding with carbohydrate results in more rapid resynthesis of glycogen. This may be important for individuals who train or compete multiple times per day (depending, of course, on the extent to which said performance relies on glycogen).
Since low muscle glycogen is itself a stimulus for glycogen synthesis, even if feeding is delayed glycogen levels may (or may not) "catch up" by 24 h. In the interim, however, muscle protein may be catabolized at a higher rate, delaying recovery in other ways.
OTOH, low muscle glycogen also appears to contribute to signaling processes that lead to adaptations that contribute to improved performance.
Regardless of the latter, how quickly you consume carbohydrates post-exercise does have measurable effects, and is not "kind of a myth foisted on us by the exercise nutrition industry.”

I believe you since i know you have great knowledge in this area. But let me ask a more specific question: if a person is only training once per day, from say 4 to 6 pm, then has a good dinner around 9 pm, and eats sufficiently during next day up until 4 pm, do you think that would sufficient to restore glycogen to the extent practicable??? Obviously, the answer to my Q depends on how hard the person is going but IME, I recover as well with the the above eating schedule as i did when i drank a liquid meal of 400 cal right after my workouts. IOW, I found no gains from using the liquid meals which are a little expensive relative to just regular food. Now granted i don't have any lab data to support my assertion but this has been my experience.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Smart folks, Physiologists, and those that stayed at a Holiday Inn last night: CALORIE BURN [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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If it works for you do it. When I am intermittent fasting and workout three hours before I can eat, I just wait 3 hours. If I am not IF and training hard, I will just have a piece of toast with/ a teaspoon of peanut butter or a cup of chocolate milk even if I am not hungry.

Why not have a piece of whole grain toast with/ half serving of peanut butter after your workouts and see what it does/how it affects you.
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