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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
doug in co wrote:
yet more evidence for the 'unique' approach of letting kids play,

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...to-win-a-gold-medal/

"The results showed that both the medalists and non-medalists started practicing in their main sport before the age of 12. However, the medalists started training in their main sport an average of 18 months later than the non-medalists. (The medalists started at age 11.8, on average, compared to age 10.3 for the non-medalists.) The medalists also accumulated significantly less training in their sport during adolescence and significantly more training in other sports. This pattern of results held across a wide range of sports, from skiing to basketball to archery. "

I think most coaches underestimate the neural connections that your brain establishes doing other sports and activities that cross over and make athletes more intelligent when doing their core sport in ways that their core sports can't push their brains in terms of learning. While practice makes perfect in the core sport, perhaps the other sports enhance the overall neural plasticity that can they be applied back to the core sport to learn in new ways in the core sport because there has been different angles in terms of problem solving that can be applied backwards to the core sport. Take for example how a soccer ball spins, a baseball spins, a football spins, and how a tennis ball spins. You can still do a "knuckle ball" with all these balls with the ball floating through the air and not spinning and dropping suddenly as the speed changes and lift and drag around the ball changes. If I played goalie, or catcher or am on the other side of the tennis court, I now have different knuckle ball experiences being at the receiving end and will have a different set of velocity/size/pressure scenarios on multiple projectiles, which allow me to just eyeball that projectile coming towards me and do the right thing, but because of the diversity of my data set and my ability to do inference on my learning models and make better decisions than the guy beside me, who as just been doing the core sport.

I'm just using the example for convenience, but look at the snowboarder world champion who came from seed place 26 in the Super Giant Slalom and took the win from the pure speed event women. Don't tell me that her snowboard coordination did not come into play vaulting her past every SuperG athlete.

All those girls who came from figure skating to my group in Nordic Skiing were just the best athletes to teach.....you explained it once and they got it. If I got a guy off the track team, the transfer was not so easy, but if I got a kid would could run a 16 min 5K damn right I was going to try to make him a better technical skier, because as a coach I knew I was playing with an awesome engine and super power to weight ratio. Of course the track coach wants that kid running indoor track, not mucking around with me on skis, the figure skating coach wants that kid on skate, but does not realise I am giving her 3-4 minute endurance engine a massive boost for her figure skating long program. Meanwhile the soccer coach wants his kids indoor soccer, but when she's on my nordic, team, I am jacking up her 90 min game day endurance, I am improving her coordination at speed, improving her balance and spatial awareness and giving her other aspects of work ethic that she will take back to summer soccer.

But every coach things his/her sport is the most important sport on the planet and does not accept that the athlete may go away and do other sports and gain skills for the core sport that may not be so easily enhanced inside the core sport....and so it goes.

I was in an alpine ski team from age 7 to 13. There is a limit to the time you can spend on skis at that age. You have to go to school and going to ski takes its time. So in the Winter snow times were on Wednesday and Friday afternoons and Saturday and Sunday from 9am to 4pm. During summer de would go to the glacier for four or five days at a time. But the rest of the training (in summer and Winter) was spent doing cross training.

I think we were very versatile and it helped out skiing. In addition to strength training we also did balance and jumping and agility drills. But we also did other sports like biking, running, climbing, canoning, squash, soccer, Hockey, wrestiling etc. I always think being in a ski team in my youth now helps me in other sports (endurance). And it instilled a habit of being active everyday.

10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I think Norway's achievements in these olympics are being undervalued on this thread. Those guys are doing something right in the sports I want Canada to win at (and I get that no nation is immune from doping, but all of our countries likely have the same percentages more or less....it's not like 37 of their medals are any more doped than 28 Canadian medals...we all probably have similar density of dopers vs our general athlete population).

Norway's achievement are not being undervalued. The pushback is just a natural reaction to the nausea invoked by Halvard's incessant jingoism. It's the same (for me, an American) when numerous people on this forum and elsewhere are so pro-America.

But I totally agree with you on your second sentence. And I agree with you on points you've made in prior threads - months ago - about the overall degradation in health in North America.

I have four kids and I wish they wanted to cross country ski. I was a young teenager when I was introduced and I thought it was something really special. The connnection with the woods, the thrill of even slight downhills on skinny skis, the satisfaction of sweating buckets even when it was below freezing. But American kids now want to head to the slopes and "hit the half pipe". And then take a 2-hour lunch to down a cheeseburger or chili dog (I can remember skiing non-stop, eating a brown-bag lunch on the lift in order to fully amortize the cost of the lift ticket). Is it just laziness? Is it wealth? Is it because the half pipe affords more opportunities for cool media that they can post on Instagram or Snapchat? Whatever it is, it's alarming.

So Norway has done something right. And I think that is a very wothwhile discussion topic. They are a much healthier nation. Is it because of better parenting? Is it because oil wealth has afforded shorter work-weeks, more leisure-time? Is it some innate desire to be fit?

I don't know. But I do know that my kids have a minimum PE requirement in school and can satisfy that requirement with cheerleading, or sport stats keeping, or being on the media/sports reporting team. Or a Doctor's note. What the fuck?

I also know that my kids want to play racquetball today (great!), but they want to be driven to the facility, which is 1 mile away. What the fuck? Who drives 1 mile???? But when I suggest they walk the mile, they immediately retreat to Instagram and Snapchat.
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [HVP] [ In reply to ]
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I also know that my kids want to play racquetball today (great!), but they want to be driven to the facility, which is 1 mile away. What the fuck? Who drives 1 mile???? But when I suggest they walk the mile, they immediately retreat to Instagram and Snapchat.[/quote]
Who bought them the electronic device so they could have access to instagram or Snapchat?
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [triathlete37] [ In reply to ]
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Weak, easy cheap shot. I figured someone yearning for a lazy win would go there. You don't have kids, so I give your comment a fat zero.
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [doug in co] [ In reply to ]
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doug in co wrote:
yet more evidence for the 'unique' approach of letting kids play,

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...to-win-a-gold-medal/

"The results showed that both the medalists and non-medalists started practicing in their main sport before the age of 12. However, the medalists started training in their main sport an average of 18 months later than the non-medalists. (The medalists started at age 11.8, on average, compared to age 10.3 for the non-medalists.) The medalists also accumulated significantly less training in their sport during adolescence and significantly more training in other sports. This pattern of results held across a wide range of sports, from skiing to basketball to archery. "

I took my son back to Norway to visit family. We stayed at my dad's house and I took my son to my old elementary school. My son was so happy since he could play on the climbing wall, use the different slack lines and of course use the trampolines. Yes all of these were in the school yard free to use for the kids.
By the way, this was a normal public school (nothing fancy I grew up in Drammen).
Will kids injure themselves falling down from the slack lines, yes of course. It is part of growing up.

It is interesting to be a part of two cultures. You learn a lot and you get challenged a lot :-)
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
doug in co wrote:
yet more evidence for the 'unique' approach of letting kids play,

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...to-win-a-gold-medal/

"The results showed that both the medalists and non-medalists started practicing in their main sport before the age of 12. However, the medalists started training in their main sport an average of 18 months later than the non-medalists. (The medalists started at age 11.8, on average, compared to age 10.3 for the non-medalists.) The medalists also accumulated significantly less training in their sport during adolescence and significantly more training in other sports. This pattern of results held across a wide range of sports, from skiing to basketball to archery. "

I think most coaches underestimate the neural connections that your brain establishes doing other sports and activities that cross over and make athletes more intelligent when doing their core sport in ways that their core sports can't push their brains in terms of learning. While practice makes perfect in the core sport, perhaps the other sports enhance the overall neural plasticity that can they be applied back to the core sport to learn in new ways in the core sport because there has been different angles in terms of problem solving that can be applied backwards to the core sport. Take for example how a soccer ball spins, a baseball spins, a football spins, and how a tennis ball spins. You can still do a "knuckle ball" with all these balls with the ball floating through the air and not spinning and dropping suddenly as the speed changes and lift and drag around the ball changes. If I played goalie, or catcher or am on the other side of the tennis court, I now have different knuckle ball experiences being at the receiving end and will have a different set of velocity/size/pressure scenarios on multiple projectiles, which allow me to just eyeball that projectile coming towards me and do the right thing, but because of the diversity of my data set and my ability to do inference on my learning models and make better decisions than the guy beside me, who as just been doing the core sport.

I'm just using the example for convenience, but look at the snowboarder world champion who came from seed place 26 in the Super Giant Slalom and took the win from the pure speed event women. Don't tell me that her snowboard coordination did not come into play vaulting her past every SuperG athlete.

All those girls who came from figure skating to my group in Nordic Skiing were just the best athletes to teach.....you explained it once and they got it. If I got a guy off the track team, the transfer was not so easy, but if I got a kid would could run a 16 min 5K damn right I was going to try to make him a better technical skier, because as a coach I knew I was playing with an awesome engine and super power to weight ratio. Of course the track coach wants that kid running indoor track, not mucking around with me on skis, the figure skating coach wants that kid on skate, but does not realise I am giving her 3-4 minute endurance engine a massive boost for her figure skating long program. Meanwhile the soccer coach wants his kids indoor soccer, but when she's on my nordic, team, I am jacking up her 90 min game day endurance, I am improving her coordination at speed, improving her balance and spatial awareness and giving her other aspects of work ethic that she will take back to summer soccer.

But every coach things his/her sport is the most important sport on the planet and does not accept that the athlete may go away and do other sports and gain skills for the core sport that may not be so easily enhanced inside the core sport....and so it goes.

I totally agree with you on multiple sports participation. My daughter's are 12 and 10. The pressure to specialize is already starting from local club teams. They've played multiple sports over the years and I believe it's made them better all around athletes. Even though they've seemed to settle on two primary sports each (basketball and volleyball/ basketball and lacrosse) every time they move on to the next sports season they are better, stronger and more skilled. Both have participated in the school running club as well and have done well in 1 mile XC races.

Formerly DrD
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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So my thoughts at the end of the tourney....... i'd say the 3 best all round winter sports countries are easily Germany, Canada, and The States

Norway gets almost all their medals in Nordic stuff, and Netherlands gets ALL their medals in Long Track - the other 3 are a total mixed bag.
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [pran] [ In reply to ]
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pran wrote:
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One could go further in soccer and handball which are probably 2 of the 4 most competitive sports Norway gets beaten by Iceland which has 350 ooo inhabitants.

Well you didnt miss that Island beat England and Croatia in soccer/football.Both are great teams and bigger countries..

Which underlines that Iceland is by far the most remarkable sport nation at present
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [pran] [ In reply to ]
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pran wrote:
Quote:
You mean the drugs that don't actually do anything if you don't have asthma?

Not in normal doses but it seems like bigger dozes actually do help according to new studies

Do you have a link to those studies. Cheers
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [y_nigel] [ In reply to ]
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y_nigel wrote:
So my thoughts at the end of the tourney....... i'd say the 3 best all round winter sports countries are easily Germany, Canada, and The States

Norway gets almost all their medals in Nordic stuff, and Netherlands gets ALL their medals in Long Track - the other 3 are a total mixed bag.

And Switzerland, with a population of 8 millionste?

It was quite a good olympics for us. One Highlight was of course Darios Hattrick.

10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [y_nigel] [ In reply to ]
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y_nigel wrote:
So my thoughts at the end of the tourney....... i'd say the 3 best all round winter sports countries are easily Germany, Canada, and The States

Norway gets almost all their medals in Nordic stuff, and Netherlands gets ALL their medals in Long Track - the other 3 are a total mixed bag.

The big question is why is the USA not good at the only sport in the winter olympics where you both can carry and shoot a gun, biathlon?
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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Halvard wrote:

The big question is why is the USA not good at the only sport in the winter olympics where you both can carry and shoot a gun, biathlon?

Because you can't use assault rifles there.

----------------------------
Need more W/CdA.
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [mrlobber] [ In reply to ]
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mrlobber wrote:
Halvard wrote:


The big question is why is the USA not good at the only sport in the winter olympics where you both can carry and shoot a gun, biathlon?


Because you can't use assault rifles there.

Also you would need to get stiffer skis for the additional weight of the assault rifle or the camber would drag in the snow and you'd be as slow as molasses and off the back.


Also no matter how you cut it, you have to include Russia in the group of top winter sports countries. Doping aside, they have a huge population base doing all the winter sports and their society is not as affluent as those on this side of the old Iron curtain. Canada only really moved up in the medal standings in the recent rounds of Olympic games because of all the sports added where you need to be ultra rich (think all the sports where there is ski lift involved and are not part of the traditional ski sports from circa 1968). I do hope that the Russians who took 2nd and 3rd in the 50K were undoped.
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I guess Bolshunov is going to have many battles with Klaebo in upcoming years. He is big, I mean, really big for a cross country skier, powerful, can sprint and go distance. Next world championships, with Ustiugov back in action, the Russian relay team is gonna be deadly.

----------------------------
Need more W/CdA.
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [mrlobber] [ In reply to ]
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It makes me sick to see Russian XC skiers out there. They have been consistently doping since 2002, as far as we know. Not for one second do I think their performances are legit. Kudos to Alex Harvey for calling it out. I hope he doesn’t end up like Beckie, having to wait 2 years for his medal.

Bolshunov comes out of nowhere in December and starts winning. No. No fucking way.
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [sto] [ In reply to ]
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sto wrote:
It makes me sick to see Russian XC skiers out there. They have been consistently doping since 2002, as far as we know. Not for one second do I think their performances are legit. Kudos to Alex Harvey for calling it out. I hope he doesn’t end up like Beckie, having to wait 2 years for his medal.

Bolshunov comes out of nowhere in December and starts winning. No. No fucking way.

This kind of feels like Brigitte McMahon coming out of nowhere in 2000 and taking the gold medal from Michelle Jones in Sydney. Honestly, I hope this is not like that. While we are joking that Alex might get his piece of metal in a FEDEX package, it was tough to take the medal ceremony for the 50K and 30K at the closing ceremonies and seeing him sitting in the stands after winning the 50K at World's last year.

BUT, I think Alex blew the race by simply not going with Nistanen and sticking back playing poker with Sundby. Alex should have gone with Nistanen and marked every move....or Alex just did not have enough headroom to go with Nistanen and chose to pace and keep the effort steady. If this was a protour hillclimb, he could do like Froome and stare at his powermeter and just know exactly what pace to go. In skiing, with tactics, ski changes, and changing weather, he did not have that luxury. He let the winning move go and then had to play poker with the Sundby crew with no one wanting to do the work to pull everyone back to Nistanen and be fried for the sprint....so they kept playing poker with each other until suddenly they realized that Nistanen was so far gone that they had no chance to close.

So we can cry over potential Russian doping, but primarily, I think Alex blew the tactics
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Canada only really moved up in the medal standings in the recent rounds of Olympic games because of all the sports added where you need to be ultra rich (think all the sports where there is ski lift involved and are not part of the traditional ski sports from circa 1968). I do hope that the Russians who took 2nd and 3rd in the 50K were undoped.

like ITU age-group 'world' championships, it's just the fastest of the rich competing..

downhill - find a snowy hill, go down it as fast as you can. Simple (but not easy), accessible to anyone with snow.
nordic - find some snowy woods, go through them as fast as you can. Ditto.
slopestyle big air skiercross boarding - what is that anyway and how much ? ! does it cost to build the course.. bah humbug.

biathlon with assault weapons - the Top Gear guys did a car-based biathlon once where Jeremy Clarkson used an assault rifle, still got well beaten by the guy with a single shot rifle.. ha

I'm a horrible person but watching the perfect 15yr-old Russian girl beat the perfect 18yr-old Russian girl in figure skating, via the 10% bonus for second-half jumps - I immediately thought of the Russian doping scandals. More strength from doping allows better jumping on less tired legs. Though there is also the question of strength-to-weight ratio, which is at its maximum for women in pre-teen girls - Zagitova might have come by that honestly.

watching the Olympics anymore is an exercise in faith and the willing suspension of disbelief..
"a human interest and a semblance of truth sufficient to procure for these shadows of imagination that willing suspension of disbelief for the moment, which constitutes poetic faith."
Samuel Taylor Coleridge
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [pk] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Do you have a link to those studies

https://www.idrottsforskning.se/...e-och-mer-explosiva/

In Swedish unfortunately
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [pk] [ In reply to ]
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Which underlines that Iceland is by far the most remarkable sport nation at present

Ah ok. I agree. They are doing great in some sports. Norway probably claims beeing part of that too though ;)
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [pran] [ In reply to ]
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pran wrote:
Quote:
Do you have a link to those studies

https://www.idrottsforskning.se/...e-och-mer-explosiva/

In Swedish unfortunately

Cheers
One thing I wasn't able to see was what do they consider a high dosis they talk about 200 mg a day but I can't see if that's what they used in the study. ( does it say somewhere)
Also they talk about improvement but I could not see the range

I understand that asthma is common but this study would suggest the allowed max level per day need to valve decreased somewhat.
At lower level there is no improvement and iam fine with that. But iam not fine if there is improvement and it's pretty obvious that's what a lot of people do.
It needs to be more looked at.
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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After watching the women's 30k, I had to look up info on Marit Bjorgen. She absolutely dominated that race from start to finish. Not only that, she appeared to compete in almost every other X country race available.

I do not know how to load images here but, of the ones I found of her on Google Images, she is a VERY muscular woman. Her arms look like a professional bodybuilder. Also, on her wiki page, it mentions she was criticized by a Swedish racer (in the past) for taking an asthma medication yet never having been diagnosed with asthma. I really hope she is not a doper because I loved seeing an almost 38 year old lady dominate the field the way she did
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [pk] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
One thing I wasn't able to see was what do they consider a high dosis they talk about 200 mg a day but I can't see if that's what they used in the study. ( does it say somewhere)
Also they talk about improvement but I could not see the range
800 microgram Salbutamol every twelve hour and 1600 in 24 hours. So that´s the level they have tested. Muscle strengh and explositivity are boosted. How much is unclear.
In the article they also accusing Sundby and Froome for taking advantage of the high limit values..
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Re: Norway is dominating these Winter Olympics with a unique approach to sports [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I think Alex blew the race by simply not going with Nistanen and sticking back playing poker with Sundby. Alex should have gone with Nistanen and marked every move

I dont think he was in that shape to be able to follow. That finnish guy Niskanen is a beast in classic skiing. All other guys including Sundby and Cologna(who was in great shape) wasnt able to follow. One russian guy was close but still wasnt able to follow to the very end. Very unhappy with swedish male team but seems to be partly the useless skis
I like Harvey though seems to be a really nice guy.
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