?? You were banned from ST under your other name, and then return under your real name as a Mod??

My guess is that he is making a "joke"

You'll notice, to reinforce the parody, he has declined to use capital letters.

Did slowman hack kileyay's account this afternoon?

I am such a 1:50 swimmer and really got caught up in such a crazy upriver swim. To me it seemed that the buoy was drifting away as I attempted to reach it.

H

Just for the record, I probably would have been another minute slower but two pro guys decided they wanted to out sprint me for 7th down the homestretch. Can't people just let me have the 7th I earned fair and square. Does everything have to be such a struggle? I mean come on, 7th is the worst spot as it is the first spot out of the money, did those guys really want the emotional/psychological baggage that comes with it? Regardless, there was no way I was losing that title which I have held so many times, so I dropped the hammer and maintained that 7th place I had held for the prior couple miles. Too bad there was no TRS IMLP stunt. On to the next one.


But to Dev's point. This thread has certainly had a few tangents. Seeing the title everyday is a great reminder to do work. Carry on.

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But there is a real reason. The problem is that it's not quite black and white which leaves some people agreeing with it and others upset. Typically those who'd like a tough swim, will be difficult to convince of the rationale to modify a swim. It's considered reasonable that a large proportion of the entrants will be unable to take part in the race on the basis that they should have known this could happen, or they should be better swimmers. I disagree. If the course becomes massively more challenging than would have been reasonably expected by a large proportion of entrants, then it's reasonable to try and mitigate that. If a venue leads itself to a high risk of such a change it should be flagged in promotional material and upon entry so people know what they're in for (e.g. "This swim venue is prone to occassional strong currents which may make the swim very challenging for weaker swimmers" or "This swim venue is prone to occassional strong currents and the route will be modified at the disgression of the RD should strong currents be present for the race").
To argue that a significant proportion of entrants should be put in a position where they will likely fail to complete the swim is absurd unless you're also arguing that too many people are allowed to take part in races and they should be reserved for the more capable athletes. As I mentioned earlier, the argument that there are tough run and bike conditions/routes are not legitimate. If you can't run you can walk. You can ride slower or even get off and walk if the hills are too steep. Of course some people may not be able to get to the end but those numbers will almost always be small and everyone will at least be able to make forward progress until they can go no further. A swim in a strong current is quite different. And this is aside from any safety aspects.

This thread has certainly had a few tangents. Seeing the title everyday is a great reminder to do work. Carry on.


My wife, who has won more wooden bowls than I ever will, asked me today what was the point of all the stuff "you boys" write on this forum. Haha I didn't have much of an answer, but I do plan to use some of the comments that I strongly disagree with as motivation to train hard heading into WC, whatever the race day conditions

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

What would you think about making the swim all downstream for everyone but making it longer to compensate for the current assist, e.g. a 40 min swimmer would still come out around 40-ish min but after swimming say 2.5 or 2.6 K, depending on the predicted current strength. The needed extra length would of course be estimated and results would vary a lot based on a swimmer's speed but at least you'd have an approximation of a 1900-m no current swim.

Also, the best solution is simply to move the swim out to above the dam where there is essentially zero current, but that appears to be unpopular b/c it would harm the overall "vibe" of the event. Apparently, the "vibe" is more important than the actual race itself.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

What would you think about making the swim all downstream for everyone but making it longer to compensate for the current assist, e.g. a 40 min swimmer would still come out around 40-ish min but after swimming say 2.5 or 2.6 K, depending on the predicted current strength. The needed extra length would of course be estimated and results would vary a lot based on a swimmer's speed but at least you'd have an approximation of a 1900-m no current swim. //

The only problem with that is time is not a good equalizer in this case. Swimming downstream in itself is a "HUGE" advantage to weaker swimmers, more so than wearing wetsuits even. It is just so hard for a lead pack swimmer to even drop a 3rd pack swimmer, and if done it is only by seconds rather than minutes. To use a downstream course and make it fair you would have to do something like a 40 minute swim for the leaders, time enough to spit the barnacles off and then put some normal time into them.


But you are right in that it would be better than nothing, at least make everyone be in the water more time than swimming the GPS distance downstream the entire time.


I guess my solution would be to maybe swim upstream as much as a BOP could handle, then make the turn and swim a bit further than the GPS distance downstream. Or really try and get the currents as minimal as possible for race day, get with the people that let the water out and let them know how important it really is..

Using this approach, if the run was on a 10 kph conveyor belt and they made the run 31.1K, I'd be fine with that. Just don't put the run on a 10 kph conveyor belt and ask people to only cover 21.1k with conveyor belt assist. The nice thing about the conveyor belt on the run with its hard "contact" to the human, is everyone gets the same 10 kph assist. With the water conveyor belt and the humans immersed inside this belt in 3D and slipping around and creating turbulence inside the belt, there is a varying degree of assist....FOP swimmer gets the least hindrance against the belt, but the least benefit with th belt.

Monty, I believe the issue with making the upstream short enough so that BOP can still cover it, is that at some point if the current is strong enough, the BOP may never leave the starting point (endless pool at your swim speed), or move backwards, (endless pool moving at Wolfgang's swim speed so only he stays stationary, Dave Scott, you and everyone else get blown backwards).

That's been my main issue with river venues if they are going to have either Kona slots or host championships. You can never get it "right" and thus fraught with uncertainty and unfair outcomes. It kind of sucks that a worlds will be held in such a swim venue when there were plenty of more fair options to go with (Port Elizabeth and Nice in subsequent years will be good). It could be a complete disaster for weak swimmers if the upstream leg at world's is against a stiff current (the game will be over for Lionel at T1, so then he can refer back to this thread and see we told him so and he should just focus on Kona), or let's say the current is so strong that it ends up being all downstream even for pros, then Frodo and Brownlee gets the short end of it. And inside every age group, the same will happen. Either guys like Bruce G will get short changed, or guys like Terra-man will get short changed. If they had this race at Lake Placid it would at least be a fair scenario for all. You get the swim split commensurate with your ability and training relative to your peers.

 (the game will be over for Lionel at T1, so then he can refer back to this thread and see we told him so and he should just focus on Kona),//

Actually this is not true and Lionel will probably crush it in a pro swim up and down current. My take on it was in regards to the MOP/BOP Ag swimmers, the ones that don't know how to draft or sight well. Now good swimmers of which Lionel is(anyone that does 100's on the 1;15 is a good swimmer) will benefit both ways in a up/down current swim. Going up it is immensely easier to draft of a much faster swimmer, just like in a huge headwind on the bike. Then you flip downstream and the Lionels of the world will be clinging onto the lead group, the one they never would be near otherwise. If he swims it smart, it could be the swim of his life(in comparison to the leaders)


As for the BOP Agers, it just all depends on how fast the current is. Like I said earlier, best case is they can get the water slowed or stopped for the race and all will be good. Otherwise hope it is slow enough for at least 95% to get to the upstream buoy, and then you can call it good. It is a fucking world champs after all, you shouldn't have the normal 2;20 ironman swimmers there in the first place, and gutting 5% at the swim cutoff is no big deal. Should be some that don't make every race, otherwise there is no weeding out process, and the harsh reality that you do have to swim a bit to do a triathlon.

Dev, as the guy that originally bestowed Kiley his "Pubes" nickname, I'd prefer you use a verb such as "bestowed", "blessed with" or "gifted" rather than "stuck".

I feel like hearing Ben call him that on the podcast was the zenith of my time on Slowtwitch, and everything to follow will be mundane and disappointing...

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Ya, the rest of your life will be all downhill from here on out, now that you've had your 15 min of fame. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I totally get your point which is why my other recommendation to move the swim upstream of the dam would be best, since there would be essentially zero current. You've prob never done any races in Chatt but I did my first race there in June 1986, and we swam at the dam, then rode out and back, then ran down alongside the river to still finish downtown like they do now. I have proposed that last yr and this yr but I always get shot down b/c having the swim start 10 miles from the run finish would "hurt the vibe of the race." I guess "the vibe" is all-important these days. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Why the pink font?

;)

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Actually, I started not to make it pink, and I thought you'd be OK without it, but sometimes other people get their feelings hurt if they think you're being too abrasive, or too "elitist", or whatever. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Yes, that's a better solution than but as you say, it still doesn't make it equivalent to a still water swim except for those swimming at the speed the RD uses to normalise the distance. The problem is that the longer you're in the water the more impact the current has on you. A distance measured relative to the bank never describes the water distance to be covered by any given athlete if the water is moving. If you make the route a longer stretch of the river you need to pick what swim time to normalise. Pick a 30min still water time with a uniform 2km/h current and the distance goes from 1900m to 2900m as measured at the bank. But pick a 45min still water time and the distance goes from 1900m to 3400m. So it's not a perfect solution but yes, I'd agree it's more fair than having an upstream leg or a standard distance downstream swim.

Monty, I'd wager a beer that you're all wet on this one;) I'd agree it would be true if you were walking on the bottom of the river or continuously pogoing off of it but barring contact with the river bottom it's not the same as biking into a headwind where you are in contact with the road underneath you. I look forward to your explanation of why I'm wrong about this.

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Monty, I'd wager a beer that you're all wet on this one;) I'd agree it would be true if you were walking on the bottom of the river or continuously pogoing off of it but barring contact with the river bottom it's not the same as biking into a headwind where you are in contact with the road underneath you. I look forward to your explanation of why I'm wrong about this. //

Why do you think it would be different in the water from the air? IF you swim into a big head current the trailing swimmer will get more of an advantage, just like on a bike. DO you think that because the bike is connected to the ground that it somehow makes a difference? Well it works with airplanes too, and they are not connected to the ground.


Anyway I have swam in these conditions a bunch of times and I can tell you it is waaaay easier. And as a glaring example, one year in Kona they had a severe side/head current in the swim. Almost right on the side with a bit more head current coming back. I believe Faris and one other guy broke away on the outbound leg, gained about a minute at the turnaround boat. The lead group was bigger than usual chasing, and once they turned the boat it spread out across the sea and was a big round mass of swimmers. The lead was changing all over the place because guys behind just felt it too easy, but once they pulled their own water into the head current, they got slammed and went no where. In the end a woman in the group(back when they all started together) went to the front and pulled the entire pack back up to faris and the other guy, choosing down that minute gap.


Now I have watched Kona every year since its inception, and never have the off the front swimmers been caught by the lead group once it had been dropped by this much time. And the real telling part of this story is that a lot of 2nd pack swimmers made that lead group that day, including Norman Stadler who went on to win that day. He had never made the lead group before, or after. The times were slow in the swim of course due to the nature of the currents, and it was a gift to the 2nd pack swimmers who were alert and took advantage.


In reality this condition is way more an advantage than cycling. On the road when you get a tailwind there is way less advantage to drafting riders, and the faster the wind the less the advantage. Now in the headwind it goes the other way, more wind, more advantage.


In swimming a big tail current is an advantage to the swimmers with less speed and they can hold contact with much better swimmers. And when you get the very rare head current, then it gets way easier for folks to draft in larger packs, they are able to hide from the currents and sit in the moving water the others have broken for them. I reckon Lionel is pretty much where Normal was back then as to his abilities, so other than just not paying attention, he would do very well in those type of conditions.


Only problem is they just do not come around very often, but in this case at this race, it may be built in, so perhaps a good race for him to target...

The drag that inhibits your motion is a function of your velocity through the medium causing the drag. When you're biking or running the velocity through the air is the sum of your bike or running velocity and relative wind speed. So biking 20mph into a 20mph head wind feels like a 40mph head wind.

When you're swimming you're immersed in the drag causing medium and if it's flowing you flow along with it. Say you normally do an IM swim at 1.35m/s in a no current swim. If you maintain that same effort into a .35m/s head current you'll still progress though the water at 1.35m/s but only 1m/s over the river bottom so your effort and drag will still be the same as swimming with no current but you'll be swimming slower compared the bank. Swimming down river with a .35m/s current you'd travel 1.35m/s compared to the water but 1.70m/s compared to the river bottom. In either case a swimmer drafting behind you will work just as hard to hold his position as they would swimming through a non current situation at 1.35m/s.



No, see above. With the bike situation the relative wind is much greater when heading up wind than down wind. While swimming at constant effort the water velocity relative to your body is constant in either case. I'm a commercial pilot and flight instructor but can't fathom what you're trying to get at when you say "it works with airplanes too".



It show me she was a real studette and you guys not so much;)


All this shows is that there is a good swim draft benefit both heading up and down current . It does nothing to prove your point.


It's a big advantage for slow swimmers because it gets them through the swim in less time.

No beer for Monty;)

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Swimming in water and an airplane flying through the air are the same fluid dynamics...the vehicle is 100% immersed in the medium with no hard contact to land. Biking on the road, or a race car on the ride have the same dynamics. Both with fluid resistance to fight for the wheels and body, and both with direct contact with the ground through pneumatic tires and associated rolling resistance. I agree with your airplane analogy