thanks for sharing!

Not too big of a surprise the T4 is the low yaw king. (Although I would like to test one against my Track Elite some time)

I didn't see listed, what were the width's of the Missile and the Tula? I plan to test my tula's against Brezza Nano's next month.

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I used the 38cm version of the USE Tula Track aerobar. This is slightly different yet more adjustable version of the USE R1 Track aerobar. The Tula Track version I used and have seen others use allows for easy stem and aerobar tilt changes. The Shimano Pro Missile Aerobar is 40cm c-c and the only width available. It tests very well, but you need to carve out some serious time to adjust it. :-)

Sorry, you were using the R1 or Tula?

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I used Tula Track. It still confuses me, just double-checked their website!

http://www.ultimateuse.com/use-components/handlebars/aero-handlebars/tula-track

ahh thanks for the clarification, what threw me off was when you said easy aerobar tilt changes. I can't think of any way to do that without angling the base bar as well?

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Yes, correct you do need to rotate the basebar at the stem clamp. There's only so much you can rotate as UCI rules enforce a 10cm top of extension tip to back of pads drop limit for most of my events. I used the ski bend extensions so I needed very little tilt to be at the limit. If you go with the s-bend or flatter extensions you can tilt them up more, but then you are tilting the basebar as well. I like to be able to swap for a range of different stem lengths and stem angles as well and it's easier with this version of the aerobar compared to the R1 version - which I've honestly never used or played with.

What's up with the P5x against the wall in one of those photos? Any tests with that non-track frame?

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The Zipp/Mavic wheel difference is surprising to me. I think you're wise to look at the Crr. I recall a post by Andy Coggan a while back indicating that testing of his wife on the velodrome had resulted in use of significantly lower tire pressure than had been historically used on a smooth track. Then there's the issue of how well that particular Pista tire compared with the Conti SS, as well as how well they were glued.

I would think some quick and simple roller testing with the two wheelsets should give you a pretty good idea of the Crr? Of course there's the whole tire pressure issue but the roller testing might be a good starting point.

Interesting stuff!

No surprise here. I'm gutted I bought a TR01 instead of a T4 even though it looks better. You're putting out a boatload of power for those 3k times!

 
Test the wheels riding the track in the opposite direction. You will find that your results are very different.

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Marty tested on the P5X, but we didn't do any bike to bike tests. That would have been cool! We wrote up his report separately, and mostly included position tweaks and helmet testing. There were some comments in this thread yesterday with link to the report:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Velodrome_Aero_Field_Testing_Write-up_by_Dean_Phillips_at_Fitwerx_P6231307/?page=unread#unread

Yes, so many variables I wish I could test, yet so little time. The 200psi Pista setup is widely used, but that of course doesn't make it fastest. I had the opportunity to talk to the Team Sky mechanics at the Manchester velodrome in England during Masters worlds and 200-210psi is the common answer. You hear 200+ PSI for most of the hour record attempt setups as well. Considering I didn't have the opportunity to test it myself, I just went with what the people test everything recommend. I ran 200psi in the heats at masters track worlds, then 180psi in the finals and couldn't detect a difference - albeit two different efforts about 5 hours apart with changing indoor track conditions so you really can't expect to find a difference. Of course it has to be a smooth track like Manchester or Mattamy or the higher pressure will start working against you. Between the two tires I've only Crr tested the Supersonics - too many times to count! - and have seen some of the pista tubular tire tests around the same Crr on other website tests. My hunch is, like you said, there is a Crr penalty for the 19mm pista tires at 200psi - but until somebody tests it that will remain just a hunch.

In the interest of time, I focused on what the fastest setup I've found on my Zipp carbon clincher time trial wheelset, and compared that to the reported fastest Mavic Comete/Pista track setup and had to just run with that comparison. Fortunately for me, it was also a direct comparison of the two wheelsets I've raced on, in my bike, with all the interactions going on. This comparison was one of the major reasons for the trip - along with the frame vs frame comparison - so it was great to see such conclusive results on the way those two setups compared. I'll once again be one of the only guys running 120psi carbon clinchers on the indoor tracks this year :-)

I'd love to see any Crr testing at 200psi and lower on smooth tracks that Andy Coggan or others have done. That would be really interesting to see!

The TR01 is a very fast bike too. In fact, in order to match my position it requires an upright bayonet stem that will bother any eyeball aero guru. I'll see if I can link a side photo below. You can see the upturned stem which is the only way to match my fastest drop position on the size 60cm frame. It may be the faster frame for a different rider depending on a different stem setup or other factors. Both the Tk1 and T4 have been dropping world records all over the planet for years. You're in great hands with either. :-)

And Manchester if fast, fast, fast! It's like riding in a circle, you barely even notice the turns.

Wow, have you done that? I'd love to see the results. Do you mean the lenticular shape of the Comete discs has different CdA going the other way?

   
There is significant yaw on a velodrome track -- as much as 10deg on the turns and 3+ overall:

https://books.google.com.mx/books?id=msdT4iQ50cgC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=kyle+yaw+cycling&source=bl&ots=Ucei2RX63h&sig=iPPB-a0HkT3tjnW1gBCuMe6NVWs&hl=es&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q=kyle%20yaw%20cycling&f=false




A lenticular disk does much better when the lens side is leeward. I believe the Mavic disk is completely flat on the drive side and lenticular on the other side. So it would do significantly worse in the other direction. Disk covers and Hed disks are superior in that they have some lens shape on both sides.

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While I haven't tested yaw angle on tracks my understanding is it's far closer to zero than was thought before. I haven't done any testing myself so perhaps somebody that has could chime in.

The Mavic Comete track disc is lenticular on both sides - or at least to the eyeball. I don't have it in front of me, but different than the road discs where the drive side is flat.

Hi Dean,
Sorry for bumping up this old thread but by any chance did you test any other wheels with the T4 or any other frames? I am targeting the 4km at my state champs and hopefully will be able to loan my brothers T4 (switching from a Planet X t4 look alike). When doing your aero testing did you test at the speeds you would expect you to go in a race? Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Lucas

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Lucas Hoffman

Hi Lucas, the only wheels I tested on the T4 were in this report - the Mavic Cometes and Zipp 808/Super9 carbon clinchers at Mattamy velodrome in Milton. It's too tricky to test wheels on the T4 off the track - such as virtual elevation field testing I've done on the road - with all the small differences in tire size and realistic pressures you want to run the track tubulars at. I have another client who also tested his Zipp's faster on a T4 frame with my Mavic Cometes set, but not by the same magnitude difference as mine. I later tested my same front 808 vs a front track Comete at a different indoor track on my Felt TK1 frame as a wash with a different Mavic Comete using 23mm tire, but only did one quick test.

If it's an outdoor concrete velodrome ideal pressures are so similar to pavement that you can't go wrong running your fastest time trial wheel and tire setup if that works on the track bike. Also, in the ERO test session I did above all tests were around 29mph but we didn't specify speed, it just turned out to be that. I tried to keep it sub-threshold and repeatable. It's a long couple hours and you want to stay relaxed and repeatable as you get on and off the bike with equipment changes. If you're really targeting just one position or equipment change then I'd want to spend more runs at closer to race speed knowing there's only so many tests you can do before fatigue creeps in. Crr differences get less significant and aero more when going from 29mph to 34+mph 3k speed. Testing setup A, then setup B, then back to setup A again to make sure the difference is repeatable is important as it's easy to add error with very subtle position change or conditions change. I'm always happy to help if you have any questions.

I hope that helps!
Dean