I have been having a hard time elevating my heart-rate on the run lately. My HR does not seem nearly as responsive to large changes in Pace and RPE as it has been in the past.
Oddly, I do NOT notice this on the bike. I am seeing HR values on the bike higher than I ever have before and my HR seems to respond to changes in effort decently quickly. During my FTP tests, I see values between 170 and 175. I use to see these numbers on the run quite easily, and my HR on the run was always higher for a given RPE than on the bike. I am not sure what is contributing to this. If I was not seeing high HR on the bike I would think perhaps think I am overreaching in my training stress, but since my heart rate remains responsive on the bike, I wonder if it is something else.
I did make a big change to my run training recently however. For the last 20 weeks or so, I have been running a lot of mileage all at low heart rates. I started trying to stay below 151 BPM, and it was hard and painfully slow (10-10:30 pace). Over time my pace keeping my HR below 151 dropped to 8:00 - 8:30 range, but I was still running at about 147-151 HR. Lately, I have had a harder time increasing my pace from there, but my HR has dropped and now I run 8:00 - 8:30 pace at a HR between 131 and 141.
I have started adding in more speed-work and a tempo run. No matter how hard I am running however, I cannot get my HR over 155 bpm, and I only hit that number running hard up a hill. Based on my last LTHR test (30 min all out run, taking avg HR over the last 20 min) my LTHR is 175. This was done last season so it is time to retest, but if my HR is not responding, I am not sure now is the right time... Based on Friel Zones, this puts my Z3 starting at 155, which for the life of me I cannot get to.
Any ideas what could be causing this? Did my run training at low heart rates depress my heart-rate at all RPE's? Should I expect to have my LTHR drop from this type of training? Or have I just overreached and need more rest?
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Re: Trouble Getting It Up [TennesseeJed]
[ In reply to ]
Well I'm no physician, but it does indeed sound strange. I have read that extreme fatigue can cause similar symptoms but have never experienced it myself. I myself have the opposite problem, but I digress...
Me thinks a visit to your MD might be warranted. If I had to wager a guess, I'd say they'll order up a stress test in order to test your cardiac reaction in a controlled environment. They'll throw you on a treadmill and increase the pace and or incline every x minutes until you can't go anymore. Obviously whilst hooked up to heart monitor doo-dads...
Not to freak you out, these are the symptoms that my wife exhibited after her cardiac ablation went bad - it basically disconnected the AV signals from the bottom chamber (I forget which one was is). But I'm sure that's not the case for you...
Me thinks a visit to your MD might be warranted. If I had to wager a guess, I'd say they'll order up a stress test in order to test your cardiac reaction in a controlled environment. They'll throw you on a treadmill and increase the pace and or incline every x minutes until you can't go anymore. Obviously whilst hooked up to heart monitor doo-dads...
Not to freak you out, these are the symptoms that my wife exhibited after her cardiac ablation went bad - it basically disconnected the AV signals from the bottom chamber (I forget which one was is). But I'm sure that's not the case for you...
Re: Trouble Getting It Up [mattyboy]
[ In reply to ]
mattyboy wrote:
Well I'm no physician, but it does indeed sound strange. I have read that extreme fatigue can cause similar symptoms but have never experienced it myself. I myself have the opposite problem, but I digress...I literally was just reading through The Triathlete's Training Bible last night and paged past the section where Friel discusses the symptoms of overtraining and overexertion and was thinking the same thing. Just because the bike doesn't affect you the way that the run affects you doesn't mean much - they both stress your body differently. I agree with above in having a quick check up done, or at least an thorough evaluation of your current training regiment to see if you're pushing too much. Any sort of major change in heart rate like that would have me pause and question, just to be sure.
Re: Trouble Getting It Up [mattyboy]
[ In reply to ]
Do others agree a trip to the doc is warranted? It is just weird cause I am both biking and running really well. I was unsure if the type of run training I have been doing has just dropped my HR values in general focusing only on aerobic base running, but perhaps there is more there. I did take a little longer to bounce back during this last recovery week, but this week my energy and motivation have been normal. I spent a good amount of time in my cycling HR Z4 this morning and felt really good, so to me it is weird that I am only seeing this on the run. Perhaps I should take a few days off and ease into things after 3 days of full rest and see if my HR changes. I prefer not to do that if not necessary, but it may be the wise choice. I would love more input from anyone that has experienced this.
Re: Trouble Getting It Up [TennesseeJed]
[ In reply to ]
Did you consider perhaps it's your HR monitor/watch? A previous HR strap I had was dysfunctional and would record my HR at super high BPM compared to level exertion . . . an example would be showing 160+ BPM while doing a Z1 effort. I changed my HR strap and everything went back to normal.
Re: Trouble Getting It Up [TheMallard]
[ In reply to ]
TheMallard wrote:
Did you consider perhaps it's your HR monitor/watch? A previous HR strap I had was dysfunctional and would record my HR at super high BPM compared to level exertion . . . an example would be showing 160+ BPM while doing a Z1 effort. I changed my HR strap and everything went back to normal.Is it common for the actual watch to be the issue? I considered the HRM/Strap. I have noticed the occasional faulty spike more frequently lately, usually at the beginning of a run lasting 30 seconds or so. I usually just lick my hand, and wet down my pads and skin and it goes away shortly. I assume the contact points are not wet enough or there is some static in my shirt. That said, I have ruled the strap out because I use the same strap on the bike where I am not seeing the same lower hr values.
Re: Trouble Getting It Up [TennesseeJed]
[ In reply to ]
I do the same on my HR strap and notice the occasional spikes you mentioned which seems normal for any HR monitor.
No idea if it's common for the watch to be faulty. I doubt it. Just saying if it were me, I'd use an alternate watch/HR monitor or borrow a friend's to confirm it before scheduling the tests at a doctor . . . .
No idea if it's common for the watch to be faulty. I doubt it. Just saying if it were me, I'd use an alternate watch/HR monitor or borrow a friend's to confirm it before scheduling the tests at a doctor . . . .
Re: Trouble Getting It Up [TennesseeJed]
[ In reply to ]
There is where you logic is flawed. While it does make sense that if it worked in one situation it should be fine in others....when it comes to HR straps that isn't always the case.
My Garmin soft strap on the bike read fine with no odd spikes and such. But for running it was all over the place. Most of the time it would sometimes do the dreaded cadence lock (starting a run it would jump straight to around 160bpm which is around my normal cadences for moderate effort). Then, it would spike and stay at 220bpm even though I was nowhere near that level of exertion.
I also made it a habit to use the electrode gel on the contacts too and it while it did help after a while as the strap wore out it would read all funny for long periods. Bought a replacement strap but haven't verified if it is reading better consistently as I haven't used it yet. Ended up getting a new Garmin with a wrist optical HR built in for a gift for Christmas. While that isn't perfect I am not getting anymore odd cadence locks (so far) and no super high spikes no consistent with RPE. I do get it stuck on a setting too low for a short time (10-20 seconds) but that is usually only 1 or 2 times during a trainer bike session (where I'd actually notice it).
My Garmin soft strap on the bike read fine with no odd spikes and such. But for running it was all over the place. Most of the time it would sometimes do the dreaded cadence lock (starting a run it would jump straight to around 160bpm which is around my normal cadences for moderate effort). Then, it would spike and stay at 220bpm even though I was nowhere near that level of exertion.
I also made it a habit to use the electrode gel on the contacts too and it while it did help after a while as the strap wore out it would read all funny for long periods. Bought a replacement strap but haven't verified if it is reading better consistently as I haven't used it yet. Ended up getting a new Garmin with a wrist optical HR built in for a gift for Christmas. While that isn't perfect I am not getting anymore odd cadence locks (so far) and no super high spikes no consistent with RPE. I do get it stuck on a setting too low for a short time (10-20 seconds) but that is usually only 1 or 2 times during a trainer bike session (where I'd actually notice it).
Re: Trouble Getting It Up [loxx0050]
[ In reply to ]
loxx0050 wrote:
There is where you logic is flawed. While it does make sense that if it worked in one situation it should be fine in others....when it comes to HR straps that isn't always the case. My Garmin soft strap on the bike read fine with no odd spikes and such. But for running it was all over the place. Most of the time it would sometimes do the dreaded cadence lock (starting a run it would jump straight to around 160bpm which is around my normal cadences for moderate effort). Then, it would spike and stay at 220bpm even though I was nowhere near that level of exertion.
I also made it a habit to use the electrode gel on the contacts too and it while it did help after a while as the strap wore out it would read all funny for long periods. Bought a replacement strap but haven't verified if it is reading better consistently as I haven't used it yet. Ended up getting a new Garmin with a wrist optical HR built in for a gift for Christmas. While that isn't perfect I am not getting anymore odd cadence locks (so far) and no super high spikes no consistent with RPE. I do get it stuck on a setting too low for a short time (10-20 seconds) but that is usually only 1 or 2 times during a trainer bike session (where I'd actually notice it).
Food for thought... Thank you both... I will do a good old fashioned pulse check next time my RPE is up but HR remains low to see if there is a glaring difference.
Re: Trouble Getting It Up [TennesseeJed]
[ In reply to ]
Well, I did some testing and I am confident the HRM is fine and this is not due to measurement error. My HR is simply depressed on the run. I guess I am going to take this as a sign I need some rest and recovery before going to the Dr. to see if things improve. I will do 2-3 days complete rest followed by another 2-3 days of low intensity, low duration workouts and see if my HR bounces back on the run.
I do not feel like I am exhibiting other signs of over-training this week. My workouts have been solid, I am hitting my workout targets (other than run HR) and my motivation is high, but I guess better err on the side of over recovered than over trained. If anyone has experienced a depressed heart rate while running, I would love to hear your experiences and how you resolved it.
Thanks!
Re: Trouble Getting It Up [TennesseeJed]
[ In reply to ]
TennesseeJed wrote:
Is it common for the actual watch to be the issue? I considered the HRM/Strap. I have noticed the occasional faulty spike more frequently lately, usually at the beginning of a run lasting 30 seconds or so. I usually just lick my hand, and wet down my pads and skin and it goes away shortly. I assume the contact points are not wet enough or there is some static in my shirt. That said, I have ruled the strap out because I use the same strap on the bike where I am not seeing the same lower hr values.In my experience chest strap data is more reliable on the bike. In cold weather or some other circumstances, my chest strap used to give odd readings on the run, but the bike is always robust. I presume this is entirely down to movement. The strap is less likely to lose contact or have interference from clothes when your upper body isn't moving about much on the bike.
However, it seems highly unlikely to me that you'd have consistent errors that show a pattern like the one you describe.
Training at low HR can/will reduce the HR at which you run a given cruising pace. Increased fitness may reduce how high you can comfortably drive your HR since muscle strength and demand may not have kept pace with CV improvements. However this would impact the bike too and while the values might be different, I'd assume you'd still see similar responsiveness. The fact that your cycling HR still responds much as before does make it much more confusing.
Re: Trouble Getting It Up [TennesseeJed]
[ In reply to ]
I thought that this was going to be a LR category popcorn thread about whether the OP should take Testosterone supplementation like Floyd and then race with or without a TUE. You guys are no fun!
Ai_1 wrote:
Training at low HR can/will reduce the HR at which you run a given cruising pace. Increased fitness may reduce how high you can comfortably drive your HR since muscle strength and demand may not have kept pace with CV improvements. However this would impact the bike too and while the values might be different, I'd assume you'd still see similar responsiveness. The fact that your cycling HR still responds much as before does make it much more confusing.This was my initial suspicion for sure. I spent a lot of time running slow, building my volume and limiting my pace by HR. My pace was dropping massively which was great improvement at what felt like an easy pace, governed by HR. Pace dropped to 8:30 to 8:00 min pace but I remained in the 147-151 bpm range, but this pace felt a little harder. After a week or two of that my HR started to fall to 130-140 range at the same pace. I was doing a lot of run volume and did not increase my pace to keep up with the usual HR range because I just did not feel like I had it in my legs to cover the distances I wanted at an increased pace. I took this as a sign it was time to add in some speed and strength work. I finished my 4 week period, with the last week being rest and started adding in some intensity, when I noticed that my HR was just not responding.
At the same time, I was doing trainerroad sustained power build to work on my ftp. The 3rd week of my last block was tough and I definitely accumulated fatigue. 4th week was a recovery week, and it definitely took me longer to recover than previous recovery weeks, however by the end of the week I was feeling fresh. I started the next week with an FTP test and frankly crushed it. I was raring to go and exceeded what I thought I would do.
It is definitely possible I overreached too far with that block. I guess I am going to play it safe and take some dedicated recovery with 2-3 consecutive days off followed by 2-3 days easier workouts, but I wanted to see if others had thoughts on the theory that my running strength and muscular endurance were simply limiting me resulting in lower HR considering I ran for 20 weeks all aerobic endurance focused.