Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives

Jan 18, 17 14:43

Post #1 of 23 (3677 views)

This will come off as a bit of a rookie topic, but trust me, I've tried to do my research before adding another redundant post.

My question is how easy is it to use a multi-hour fuel bottle in a full IM? For sake of apples to apples comparison, I'm assuming a 6 hour bike split and 2x3 hour fuel bottles (one on frame, second in special needs with no water because of Perpetuem spoilage). Here's my basic setup: Felt IA3, bottle between arms, single bottle behind saddle and single aero bottle on seat tube. Ideally I'd use the seat tube bottle as my multi-hour fuel.

Is there a good way to make sure you aren't over/under consuming volume from the fuel bottle when you're taking swigs every 15/20 minutes, aside from practice / fuel in your training like you'll race? I'm asking because I'm an ultra runner with some Oly's under my belt, but haven't attempted a bike fueling strategy like this before. I'm imagining that when I'm that tired, it will be hard to keep the swigs of the bottle consistent across the 3 hour usage or am I wildly over complicating this?

My backup plan is to attempt Perpetuem Solids instead of the multi-hour bottle and supplementing with Hammer gels. Thanks for the help, everyone.

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [weston693] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 17 14:54

Post #2 of 23 (3660 views)

Trial and error.

Now many will say mark the side of the bottle but I was never smart enough to make that work. How do you get the marks to line up when you tilt the bottle upside down and at an angle.

In the end I just practiced it over and over again on all my long rides until it became instinctive on how much to sip each time to get roughly equal amounts yet make the bottle last the entire ride. Over the years I got so good at it that I could make anything from a 3 hour to a 6 hour bottle and by the time I got home (or the end of the big leg of the race) the bottle was essentially empty.

I've moved to ultrarunning now and essentially do the same thing instead of using gels in a bottle I'm using Tailwind. I make up an hour bottle and sip it about every 10 minutes. By the end of the hour it's empty. Rinse and repeat.

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [weston693] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 17 15:23

Post #3 of 23 (3634 views)

I've done it for all three of my IM's and it has always worked for me. Basically one five hour bottle of EFS or Infinit concentrate containing around 1600 calories, taken every 15 minutes with water. I was sure to drink one bottle of water per hour (more if it is hotter like the year I did IMLP. Around half way through I check to make sure I've gone through around half the bottle. I only take up water on the course and occasionally gatorade if I feel I need a little more. Remember the fuel on the bike fuels the run and I have run well off the bike.

I would like to point out that while Perpetuum works well for me on training rides I would not use it in a full IM because of the protein. That could cause some problems on the run but others may have more insight on this matter.

A false humanity is used to impose its opposite, by people whose cruelty is equalled only by their arrogance

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [weston693] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 17 15:29

Post #4 of 23 (3625 views)

As above, trial and error (lots of the latter) and experience. I've done three IMs with 3 hour infinit bottles to varying degrees of success, but this year trying something different.

Just remember that even a three hour bottle is pretty concentrated, and if you take some every fifteen minutes, that means you have to finish 1/12 of the bottle in one go . May not seem like a lot, but your stomach may not like it. You should also (i've been told) follow each dose of concentrated infinit with water, so it's a two step process

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [weston693] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 17 15:39

Post #5 of 23 (3614 views)

I'm one of those guys that marks their bottles. It works pretty well; you're not trying to drink to a mark each time, they're just there to check periodically to make sure you're not over or under fuelling.

Another option if you're going to carry three bottles anyway, you could just make them 1 hour bottles, and swap all 3 at special needs. I've done both ways, and the latter is easier (although I was using infinit, so no spoilage worries).

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [weston693] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 17 15:41

Post #6 of 23 (3610 views)

Thanks for the help everyone. I'm starting to see the trend of trial and (emphasis added) error.

Forgot to add that I'm planning a bottle of water per hour, but still taking into account the water from the fuel bottle. I'll just feed off the course there adding electrolyte tabs. I've never had GI issues in my 50 milers and I'll usually munch on some form of protein.

Only plus I can think of is I have Lake Placid HIM as practice a few months before Cozumel IM.

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [weston693] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 17 15:53

Post #7 of 23 (3601 views)

I just did Coz, that's quite a different animal with the heat.

Other things to be aware of are how you store the 3 hour bottle, if you eject it you gave to go get it (happened to me after riding thru town). I actually ended up using 2 hour bottles as I found I was actually just more prone to drink that than a 3 hour mix, which was pretty heavy. One quick stop at SN to grab a new dry bottle - but there is no water at SN at Coz (or bathrooms), so keep that in mind. Kind of a PITA, had to use one of the water bottles to fill it.

and you will likely be using more than 1 bottle per hour at Coz. More like two for me.

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [Chri55] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 17 5:37

Post #8 of 23 (3407 views)

Chri55 wrote:

I've done it for all three of my IM's and it has always worked for me. Basically one five hour bottle of EFS or Infinit concentrate containing around 1600 calories, taken every 15 minutes with water. I was sure to drink one bottle of water per hour (more if it is hotter like the year I did IMLP. Around half way through I check to make sure I've gone through around half the bottle. I only take up water on the course and occasionally gatorade if I feel I need a little more. Remember the fuel on the bike fuels the run and I have run well off the bike.

I would like to point out that while Perpetuum works well for me on training rides I would not use it in a full IM because of the protein. That could cause some problems on the run but others may have more insight on this matter.

Firstly, I know everyone is different, but did you really manage 320cal/hour?

I'm in training for my first full at the end of March. Done two long rides (5 - 5.5hrs) followed by 60-80min run to test my nutrition and pace.

During those I took in around 1,400cal on the ride with 800-1,000cals in a fuel bottle and 400cal in Powerbar and Powershots. Not sure I could handle much more than that...will I end up bonking on the run based on that amount of fuel?

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [TriNewbieZA] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 17 5:49

Post #9 of 23 (3395 views)

TriNewbieZA wrote:

Chri55 wrote:

I've done it for all three of my IM's and it has always worked for me. Basically one five hour bottle of EFS or Infinit concentrate containing around 1600 calories, taken every 15 minutes with water. I was sure to drink one bottle of water per hour (more if it is hotter like the year I did IMLP. Around half way through I check to make sure I've gone through around half the bottle. I only take up water on the course and occasionally gatorade if I feel I need a little more. Remember the fuel on the bike fuels the run and I have run well off the bike.

I would like to point out that while Perpetuum works well for me on training rides I would not use it in a full IM because of the protein. That could cause some problems on the run but others may have more insight on this matter.

Firstly, I know everyone is different, but did you really manage 320cal/hour?

I'm in training for my first full at the end of March. Done two long rides (5 - 5.5hrs) followed by 60-80min run to test my nutrition and pace.

During those I took in around 1,400cal on the ride with 800-1,000cals in a fuel bottle and 400cal in Powerbar and Powershots. Not sure I could handle much more than that...will I end up bonking on the run based on that amount of fuel?

My last couple of IM's I was probably around 500-600 cal/hour. Two bottles of sports drink per hour, plus a gel and/or Stinger Waffle depending.

I'm at about 300-350 per hour for a 70.3.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 17 6:10

Post #10 of 23 (3360 views)

The GMAN wrote:

TriNewbieZA wrote:

Chri55 wrote:

I've done it for all three of my IM's and it has always worked for me. Basically one five hour bottle of EFS or Infinit concentrate containing around 1600 calories, taken every 15 minutes with water. I was sure to drink one bottle of water per hour (more if it is hotter like the year I did IMLP. Around half way through I check to make sure I've gone through around half the bottle. I only take up water on the course and occasionally gatorade if I feel I need a little more. Remember the fuel on the bike fuels the run and I have run well off the bike.

I would like to point out that while Perpetuum works well for me on training rides I would not use it in a full IM because of the protein. That could cause some problems on the run but others may have more insight on this matter.

Firstly, I know everyone is different, but did you really manage 320cal/hour?

I'm in training for my first full at the end of March. Done two long rides (5 - 5.5hrs) followed by 60-80min run to test my nutrition and pace.

During those I took in around 1,400cal on the ride with 800-1,000cals in a fuel bottle and 400cal in Powerbar and Powershots. Not sure I could handle much more than that...will I end up bonking on the run based on that amount of fuel?

My last couple of IM's I was probably around 500-600 cal/hour. Two bottles of sports drink per hour, plus a gel and/or Stinger Waffle depending.

I'm at about 300-350 per hour for a 70.3.

Wow. I can't imagine eating that much...thats like 3 Powerbars an hour for 5 hours.

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [weston693] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 17 6:18

Post #11 of 23 (3346 views)

I have used that exact same setup for full distance and found it to work very well. I use Perpetuem on all my long rides and then on long runs and have never had problems with it (of course everyone is different in their responses). The multi-hour bottle is pretty strong flavor so having water to wash it down is good for both hydration and cleansing the palate - at the end of the day you won't want to drink that stuff again. If you can having the second bottle in special needs with an ice-pack or in small soft sided cooler so it is cold really makes a refreshing change to the probably luke warm drink you will have been consuming, only really works if you can drop-off special needs bag morning of (I don't know if that is possible for your event). I found it really convenient to only have to manage liquids for the day with no solid food until after the race.

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [TriNewbieZA] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 17 6:20

Post #12 of 23 (3340 views)

Most of it was liquid so not the same as trying to digest three Powerbars. :-)

Last year I moved away from sports drinks and did only Bonk Breakers, gels, salt sticks, and water. I only do 70.3's now. So I ate two bonk breakers and four gels during each 70.3 I did. 2:30 bike splits so it was about 350 cal/hour if I'm doing my math correctly.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 17 6:23

Post #13 of 23 (3333 views)

Back to the OP's question...

I did the concentrated bottle of Infinit for the first two IMs I did back in 2010 and 2011. I found that I wasn't drinking enough water doing that.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 17 6:27

Post #14 of 23 (3327 views)

The GMAN wrote:

....... Bonk Breakers, gels, salt sticks, and water........

** For me*** something like this is waaaaayyyy too complicated. My solution:

Gatorade (or you may use a substitute. For example, GU brew, Tailwind, etc)

1. Calories
2. Electrolytes
3. Hydration

All in one simple package.

Keep It Simple.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [japarker24] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 17 6:35

Post #15 of 23 (3310 views)

japarker24 wrote:

The GMAN wrote:

....... Bonk Breakers, gels, salt sticks, and water........

** For me*** something like this is waaaaayyyy too complicated. My solution:

Gatorade (or you may use a substitute. For example, GU brew, Tailwind, etc)

1. Calories
2. Electrolytes
3. Hydration

All in one simple package.

Keep It Simple.

I get that. I did it that way for many races too. I'm a bit sensitive to drinking all that sweet and sugary drinks so all Gatorade (or Perform) made me a little nauseous. Plus I would get hunger pangs.

My thing isn't that complicated. It's all right there in my bento. Just grab a handful of something every 15-20 minutes and wash it down with a bottle of water.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 17 6:36

Post #16 of 23 (3308 views)

ChrisM wrote:

As above, trial and error (lots of the latter) and experience. I've done three IMs with 3 hour infinit bottles to varying degrees of success, but this year trying something different.

Just remember that even a three hour bottle is pretty concentrated, and if you take some every fifteen minutes, that means you have to finish 1/12 of the bottle in one go . May not seem like a lot, but your stomach may not like it. You should also (i've been told) follow each dose of concentrated infinit with water, so it's a two step process

This. I use to use the concentrated solution but I found by the 2nd lap in most IM races, I just couldn't bear the thought of choking that solution down. My taste buds couldn't take it.
Mark

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 17 6:48

Post #17 of 23 (3290 views)

Not arguing, but just for discussion:

1. Your plan may not be *that* complicated, but it does require 4 different products vs 1 product. Also, some of those products must be purchased at specialty retail outlets vs virtually any gas station or grocery store in the US (and most likely around the world).

2. The OP sounds like he/she is training for his/her first IM (and possibly first 70.3). I don't understand why many people instantly jump to complicatedor expensive plans (multiple products or specialized products like Infinite or Perpetuem or UCan, etc) without trying the simple & cheap alternatives first.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 17 6:51

Post #18 of 23 (3281 views)

The GMAN wrote:

Most of it was liquid so not the same as trying to digest three Powerbars. :-)

Last year I moved away from sports drinks and did only Bonk Breakers, gels, salt sticks, and water. I only do 70.3's now. So I ate two bonk breakers and four gels during each 70.3 I did. 2:30 bike splits so it was about 350 cal/hour if I'm doing my math correctly.

Yeah for sure, still...in my mix of around 1,000cal per bottle (malto + fructose mix) I can't imagine making it much stronger and still being able to stomach all those calories.

Everyone is different I guess.

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [weston693] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 17 6:58

Post #19 of 23 (3272 views)

I ride (also an IA) with an xlab torpedo bta with only water that I refill at every aid station and a 24oz bottle with 1250 Calories of infinit behind my seat. The infinit is a custom blend with max electrolytes and minimum flavor. Also 2 x 230 Cal cliff bars in my pockets. I had a 1000 Calorie bottle in special needs just in case, though at IM Boulder last summer I did not use it. Taking a swig every 15 minutes or so worked out great. If it looked like was was going through it fast I would have taken the special needs bottle. Bike split was 4:59 for reference.

You could totally do this with a seat tube aero bottle instead of behind the seat.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [weston693] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 17 8:07

Post #20 of 23 (3227 views)

I have found success by using the custom blend of Infinit, I make 2 3hr bottles and keep one of the downturn and one behind the seat. I also use a BTA setup, my goal is to try and drink a bottle of water in between each aid station. I dial down the flavor and up the electrolytes in my blend, my goal is to have everything I need in the bottle, no extra pills to take or trying to lick salt off my thumb on the bike. I keep a spare in special needs just in case, haven't had an ejection but you never know.

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [Chilybil23] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 17 8:22

Post #21 of 23 (3201 views)

I've had good sucedd with all liquid calories in one bottle made from maltose/ fructose home mix, electrolytes suited to the weather and own choice of flavour. in the bentonite a couple of caffinated gels and bar. Aid stations are my back up if I need to go to plan B.

With this set up I don't need to stop at special needs. Which keeps things simple.

I use water from aid stations as needed.

As others have said testing and adjusting during training and race simutation rides is the key to getting it right for you.

http://www.tri-monkey.co.uk

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [weston693] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 17 8:31

Post #22 of 23 (3191 views)

I used to do a concentrated bottle, but moved away from that because it was much simpler to live off the course to me.

Make sure you have a backup plan in case you lose a bottle somehow. I've seen people mentally implode after dropping a multihour bottle and have it explode on them.

Re: Multi-Hour Fuel Bottle Mistakes or Alternatives [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 17 11:26

Post #23 of 23 (3110 views)

The GMAN wrote:

I get that. I did it that way for many races too. I'm a bit sensitive to drinking all that sweet and sugary drinks so all Gatorade (or Perform) made me a little nauseous. Plus I would get hunger pangs.

My thing isn't that complicated. It's all right there in my bento. Just grab a handful of something every 15-20 minutes and wash it down with a bottle of water.

I'm pretty similar, over time gels & sports drink becomes a little too much sugar, I need something a little more solid for a 70.3.

General bike/fuel strategy currently:
- Sip on Gatorade endurance for the whole ride, 2xbottles.
- Once I'm settled on the bike (couple of minutes), 1xGU (post swim sugar)
- Every 15 minutes 1/4 of a cliff bar (from the bento, 1xbottle of water available if needed)
- 10 mins before the bike ends 1XGU (pre run sugar)

The 15 minute cliff bar also works well for me as a psychological aid.

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