Additionally with wetsuits being allowed in FINA open water this year we will really see some optimization of suit tech.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Got mates of all different standards from BOPers to ex state swimmers that have been in $50 wetsuits and $1000 wetsuits with little difference in performance. Obviously there are some wetsuits quicker than others, but we are probably talking 10/15s over a 70.3 course.

Hi guys, we like to think that the Vanquish is without doubt one of the fastest wetsuits on the market. We haven’t done any specific speed analysis although a lot of our athletes have conduct their own time trial testing when deciding on a wetsuit sponsor (makes sense).

As Fleck said, a lot of the gains are from fit and this is something we (as triathletes) have worked really hard to nail. A lot of our Pros have said that when testing other brands they have had small pockets of water in the suits build due to it not quite fitting perfectly but this hasn’t been an issue with ours. Obviously this is down to individual body shapes somewhat but something we pride ourselves on.

The suits panel design can also contribute massively to performance – providing flexibility, stability and buoyancy where you need it most. The Vanquish has a super thin 1.5mm one–piece shoulder, chest and arm panel to provide maximum flexibility, and unrestricted movement (as a swimmer this was very important to me); helping reduce energy expenditure too. Triathlete said that it felt like they were swimming without a wetsuit on in their 2016 buyers guide. Understanding the importance of hip position and rotation in the water, we used the extremely buoyant Yamamoto Aerodome neoprene through the core and legs use with NBR construction side panels. NBR is an extremely buoyant material which is commonly used in life jackets and is sandwiched between two layers of neoprene to ensure maximum lift, and stability in the water.


The Vanquish (which Sarah will be racing in) has picked up some great industry reviews in 2016, and athletes such as Richard Murray, and Joe Skipper have enjoyed their fastest swims last year (coincidence?) if that’s of any reassurance. We don’t know what testing Sarah conducted (hopefully she can let everyone know) although she did have the suit for a while before making the decision to race in it for 2017 and we are super pleased to have such a great athlete on board.

If you fancy testing how fast the Vanquish is for yourself then come along to one of our demo sessions this year - they'll be up online soon so keep an eye out.

Thanks,

James (Founder)

Nice to see the manufacturer commenting :-)

I almost ended up with a single use vanquish but was put off by some finger damage and a deal on a predator that I couldn't refuse.

My predator has aged poorly so I guess I will be looking around again soon.

If you do anything through 'My Triathlon' and 'My Open Water Swim' at their Pennington flash location - I would definitely be interested in coming giving one a go :-)

WD :-)

If you talk to her and come across her testing, I would love to see it. Post it if you get a chance.

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Thomas, I can give my N+1 on the difference between a Roka Competition and the Roka X.

PB in the Competition is 49:21 for 3800m. GPS measured course, no waves or noticeable current.
PB in the X (a day after a 2:19m 10km swim) is 48:30 on the same course in similar conditions. Course is out and back with a line...so no way to get lost and go extra distance.

I'd attribute most of the difference to the shoulders in the X...they do what they say they do...no restriction. Suit is far more comfortable to me too as I find it allows me to roll better.

But...just over 1 second per 100m of extra speed.

If you can find a 6 second difference between two wetsuits over 100 yards...the slow wetsuit is an irrelevant marker in my opinion.

When I went from the Orca S4 to the Roka Competition...that Roka was just about 3 seconds faster per 100m...so possibly a 4 second difference from S4 to the X. The Orca S4 (not other suits, just this one as I haven't tried other orca suits) feels like I'm paddling a foam board not swimming. (floating too high, no flexibility for shoulders and proper body rotation.

Thanks for that. Everyone has their own N+1 testing methods for confidence. For me, I like to test things over multiple days, but each suit each day in different order. For me I would like to test wetsuits over 7 days, 800m intervals, reversing order, 4 intervals a day. That would be about 28 intervals in total, or 14x800s per suit. That is good enough for me. Personally it would help to have it unbranded so you don't know what you are actual testing. I am going to do a more form wetsuit test sometime this year and see what the differences are in a top-end suit.

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I completely agree. Without power meter equivalents for swimming, it's all speculation...And thus...Comes down to how each swimmer feels in each suit. Comfort and usability are meaningful but subjective preferences. Speed differentials...In general....Just about as subjective.

i had an aspire for 3 years and am now using a roka maverick. The latter is an absolute bastard to get on, and i sweat when its hot BUT is a much nicer suit in the water. Im sold on roka suits.

James,

Thanks for coming on here. If you ever decide to do some testing and want some help with it, either testing design or actual testing, let me know.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Speed differentials...In general....Just about as subjective. //

Really? How is it subjective to swim a 400 in a pool and have an exact time for that? And keep in mind that real swimmers can swim particular paces within a second or two for that distance without any clock to see. It is not perfect, but it gets you 99% of where you want to be, which for the purpose of testing wetsuits is plenty close enough.


And how a wetsuit feels is really irrelevant, how it fits is what matters. Most people that put on a suit for the first couple times feel horrible, doesn't mean they aren't going to swim the shit out of their jammer PR"S. No one ever feels great in a suit as compared to just a swimsuit, but you learn how to swim differently and accept some things that everyone has to deal with. Minimizing those discomforts then becomes the goal without losing too much speed.

Just a funny anecdote to add to the thread... a well know wetsuit company used to get one of their staff (who was also a top swimmer) to throw on their latest suit & go for a swim in the local bay. If he reported that the suit felt good, they would advertise it as 'the worlds fastest wetsuit'.

Whatever do you mean??

"It can be true that some wetsuits are 6 seconds per 100m faster than others, but that would be when comparing top suits to pretty average, inflexible ones."

i've tested 2XU, roka, de soto, blueseventy, TYR, zone3, aquaman, orca, and others, all during the same time frame, same fitness, and over 100 yards the very best of these were about 2sec faster per 100 than the very slowest of these. that's quite a bit. that's 30sec over 1500 meters. perhaps ome will fare worse yet (or better yet) when you get into the last 500 meters of a swim of that distance.

of course, i tested suits that fit me. yes, there's 6sec per 100 difference if you test a suit that doesn't fit. but if i tested a bunch of running shoes for my size 12 feet, and 1 set of shoes were size 15, that size-15 shoe is going to test pretty slow.

but if all the suits properly fit? in my opinion, today's wetsuits are all sufficiently flexible. the problem is the opposite: some are so flexible they can't resist the force of water against them, from the inside, inviting more water in.

still, i just see no evidence whatsoever that one wetsuit can be 3sec faster than the slowest wetsuit per 100, let alone 6sec. i'm not saying it can't happen. i'm saying there's absolutely no evidence that i know of for that sort of claim.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

As Steve as posted for years, and you, most of today's wetsuits speed will be determined about whether the suit fits correctly or not. And some brands fit some
body types better than others. I will never wear anything other than a 2 piece Desoto. Since I am tall and so skinny, no one piece would ever be made
to fit the bottom 1% body shape like mine.

And yep, boy do some buy the marketing hype some brands spit out.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

My wetsuit is 10 years old and 3 years ago I wondered if newer wetsuits are faster. I tested it against a new one, which had indeed more shoulder flexibility. But the lesser shoulder flexibility doesn't annoy me.
In the test I changed from my wetsuit and the new one and back for about 4 times (which is quite strenuous) to get good comparable results in the series.

I didn't notice any difference in time, so the huge difference the guy at the shop promised was at least not there. I decided to keep my old wetsuit.

But: I will have to renew it soon because the neoprene starts to be crumbly.

Yeah it would be pretty rare these days...but if you turn up to some open water races here in Oz, you'll see some pretty ordinary wetsuits... which is why I also wrote "If you take the top end suits, make sure they are fitted correctly, and test correctly, there would only be 1-2 seconds between them per 100."

You are so right Steve you should be selling wetsuit. Nice post.

So, to shed some light on the wetsuit testing. Her training partner, Sarah Cameto actually conducted the timed testing with Matt Dixon of Purple Patch. They compared four other suits and after which approached us, and asked if we would support Sarah Cameto too. The guys at Purple Patch are going to do a video with their wetsuit testing process so we're equally as interested to see it (and will post here). Any gains will be individual, this is obviously a pretty extreme case but we have no reason to doubt Sarah (she could have said 2 or 3 seconds which we would have been pretty pleased with). And to make clear, we're not claiming our suit is 6 seconds quicker than any other wetsuit but do encourage you to give it a try.

Does Zone3 offer any ability to 'try' the wetsuits, and return if they don't work out, like DeSoto, Roka, Xterra, etc?
I can't find any mention of a policy like that on the Canadian distributor website..

Thanks

Hey Gang,

Would like to comment here since our name has been dropped a few times in this thread and we are most implicated by Sarah's social post as her outgoing sponsor. :)

First and foremost, let's be happy for her and give her the benefit of the doubt. Second, credit to Zone 3 seeking to continually raise the bar and not resting on their laurels. Love the competition!

To qualify my comments, I should say that over the last several years, we have done some pretty robust testing with athletes of all abilities under a wide variety of protocols. We did this for product development and have never shared the results publicly, so there was no incentive to b.s. ourselves. We've also heard what some of our athletes' coaches do to make their own assessments. And then we're also aware of what the magazines and other publishers do. So I think we're pretty well informed.

My personal conclusion is that testing this stuff is really hard because of the placebo effect of swimming in a new wetsuit and in the case of a pro, testing for a new sponsor. Also, it's hard to eliminate technique-related variables like inconsistent turns and streamline in short course swimming. Lastly, it's hard to control for fatigue, which affects even the strongest swimmers in a multi-interval, multi-suit test. Make the test long enough, and now you have to think about hydration and nutrition. Lots of variables!

Nonetheless, if you can mitigate a bunch of those issues, you may very well see that some suits are definitely slower than others, either because of subpar patterning/fit (which has been mentioned), suboptimal buoyancy, lack of stretch in the material, design-induced drag (e.g., bad neck design that lets in too much water, for example) or some combination of all of those factors. Also, you may see that suits are faster but require more effort to move through the water (which you can handle and may not notice in a short tests but will reveal itself later in a longer test or during a full IM swim). Others may be faster or the same speed, but may cause you to heat you up more and leave you exiting the water with a higher core temp, thus hurting you later in the race, which is something we have tested but no one talks about. Net net, I think there is more variation out there than some may expect.

We have seen a very wide range of performance from the low end to the flagship suits. 6 seconds per hundred seems extreme, for sure, but it's possible, though we have never seen it comparing flagship to flagship between brands.

Our most reliable testing has been with multiple non-sponsored, unbiased-as-we-could-get, super fit and talented swimmers (US olympic trials qualifier level) on whom we administered robust protocols that track pace, cadence, heart rate, core temp, RPE, nutrition, hydration, and other metrics over a very extended session with lots of rest (eg 12 x 400m on 30 min rest @ HR 150). In that kind of test with swimmers who can take the yardage load without breaking down technically or muscularly and can swim at a consistent effort and pace over thousands of yards, we've been able to see some significant and consistent differences between suits on the market.

Of course, we've also done other tests (50s, 100s, 1000s, 1500s, etc) and shorter tests, but have tended to land on multiple repeats of 400m or so as a preferred interval, because it's long enough to help negate the effect of inconsistent turns that you'd encounter in a short course pool but is short enough that a talented swimmer can do numerous, consistent repeats at an aerobic heart rate and let the suit do the work.

YMMV and that's cool, just trying to qualify some of my comments. Here, am not sure what their protocol was, but again I'd give her the benefit of the doubt unless more specific claims are made. What works for one may not work for another, and fit is huge, so do try for yourself, as others have said. Most good brands or tri shops will let you try before you buy or buy and return with a friendly money-back guarantee policy. Just make sure when you do test that you do your best to control for fatigue and other nasties that can creep into tests and skew results.

As her outgoing wetsuit partner, I hope people are happy for Sarah that she's stoked on her suit and new partner. We were sorry to Sarah her go from our pro team, but there are multiple dimensions to pro sponsorship, and we're pleased for her that she had a better opportunity elsewhere. Hope she has a great year ahead.

Best,
Rob

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rob canales
ceo + co-founder at ROKA
http://www.roka.com

Are we about to have a wetsuit battle royale?

As a fellow pro I take her comments as a slap in the face. For instance, the last two years, I worked with a company with a fantastic product. But the owner, wanted me to do my "advertising" in a sensational fashion. It wasn't enough to use, train, and race on the product everyday. He wanted me to use *buzz* words which I just wasn't comfortable with because no human could possibly isolate all the factors that come with one simple nutrition change and make a determination about things. Needless to say our differences in opinion ended the relationship. For the record, that company was Beet Boost - which is a product with 2 ingredients - tart cherries and beets, that I would be happy to recommend to anyone going forward. Just because I don't have an establish relationship, doesn't mean necessarily that I won't continue to recommend it.

Now, I realize that ST is not Facebook and it is completely different audience, with a completely different set of measuring sticks, but personally, this sort of things doesn't help out triathlon or pros. It might help Zone3 in the short-term, or it might help Sarah in the short-term but I don't know why it couldn't be left at: ~"Happy to be partnering with Zone3, they make excellent wetsuits, and mine fits like a glove".

I would be curios, if every pro socialed a post tomorrow, "Working with XYZ wetsuit company in 2017, test 6 seconds faster than some other suits" what the response would be.

Lastly, I am going to do some wetsuit testing myself. Going forward. My protocol will be the same or similar to the following test, but I will at least make it known, and regardless of whether BlueSeventy, 2XU or whoever else comes out on top. It may not be perfect, but it is better than nothing.

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Maybe Tritonwear will be able to add some data to these tests...

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)