Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [Meathead] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Meathead wrote:
imsparticus wrote:
You realize that you don't even have to graduate from college to be admitted to their Doctor of Chiropractic Program?
http://www.life.edu/...ractic-requirements/

But you do need three credits of college algebra. It's a joke.



You also don't need a degree to go to dental school (http://www.dental.upenn.edu/...d_program_admissions) or to take the bar & become a lawyer in some states (http://www.slate.com/...apprenticeships.html).

Don't knock dentists, damnit. You have no idea what my people have been through.

Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miyagi
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [chxddstri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Damn antidentites.

Don't drown. Don't crash. Don't walk.
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [xsive] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It is not called a "yank" or a "crack" in Chiropractic school it is called a "the million dollar roll"...figure it out:)

Although your yanking friend wasn't doing a lumber roll, the mere fact that they did that as you describes tells you all you need to know about the depth of his/her skills.

Dr. Phil will ask you; "What were you thinking?????"
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [xsive] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
actually its not just chiro that can be bad, its also SOME doctors and PT's, you said you got two cortisone injections, why? unless you told doctor you just needed them to get through a certain race, whats the point, they arent going to heal high hamstring tendapathy, i am nearly two years in to the nightmare of hht, first doctors and PT all told me to stretch, which ofcourse made it much worse as im stretching a torn muscle, another doctor told me to go get plasma rich platelet injection which was $1200.00 and not covered by insurance, that didnt work, im on my fourth dr now and doing strengthening and ASTYM, but yeah, definitely yanking on the leg is not going to do anything for tears in your hamstring
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [rotosound] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Saw my Chiro this morning - my back kink sure feels better!

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [david] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
david wrote:
Saw my Chiro this morning - my back kink sure feels better!


And did your chiro actually suggest any strengthening exercises or stretches so that you could get eventually not be dependent on their skillz?

Less is more.
Last edited by: Big Endian: Oct 21, 16 14:09
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [xsive] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just my $0.02, but I have NEVER believed in the philosophy of "manually adjusting" the body. I do believe in Muscle Activation Technique (M.A.T.), but do not believe the body was made to be cracked, pulled and adjusted considering bones are held together by connective tissue such as: ligaments, tendons and muscles.

I'm sure everyone has read the recent article regarding a well known model: http://www.cbsnews.com/...t-family-speaks-out/
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [treyedr] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
treyedr wrote:
xsive wrote:
I've been fighting an injury for about 2.5 yrs. It's waxed and waned. One day I think that I'm cured and then it creeps back.

Recently, I had two cortisone injections and I took time off, and slowly built my mileage (mostly running miles). I have been feeling 94% well.

I bumped into a chiropractor that I had seen a while back and as I was telling him about the injections and before I could tell him how much better that I've gotten over the last 4 months he tells me, "lie down."

So I think that he's going to compare my leg lengths and then he gives my right leg a big YANK. Then proceeds to YANK the left foot too.

It's the same technique that all of the PTs and all of the Chiros that I've seen use, and after I get up, my tweaked left latissimus muscle no longer is tweaked, and I think - that I'm that much closer to being 100% healthy.

I don't really care about the tweaked lat because it just is a nuisance and it does not affect my performance and only slightly limits my trunk rotation (which I think is not really necessary in triathlon).

Unfortunately, about 2 hrs later, my lower back (right SI area) is hurting and I am having electrical/nerve pain in my right leg. I slept about 1.5 hrs last night because of the pain and the irritable feeling in my gut, and also the irritation that I was feeling in my arms and hands- accompanied by oscillating hot flashes and coldness all over my body (I was hoping that I was getting sick and NOT re-injured).

Today was better and I did a 2.0 mile run (easy), but my lower back is still tight and my right hamstring is also better, but still buzzing with electrical energy.

For the PTs, Orthos, and Chiros, it seems like the unilateral foot/leg YANK would be contraindicated, but because all of the PTs, Orthos, and Chiros were doing the YANK maneuver at some point in my treatment, then it probably is not going to cause long-term injury, but what do you think?? Am I re-injured, or is this just a minor setback?

I always noted that the YANK hurt for a day or two when I was actively receiving manual treatments, but why does it do that and don't you agree that I should insist that no practitioner ever do that again?

If I chill out and give it a few days will the nerve irritation calm down? Or do I need to see a lawyer or a surgeon?

We need more information to help you.

How old are you?

How did you get this injury?

If this injury is training related, have you had your swim, bike, and run form assessed? What other training are you doing?

Specifically, what symptoms were you having at the onset of the injury? How have these symptoms progressed?

What makes the symptoms worse? better?

As far as advice goes, I'll repeat what everyone else here has said.....STOP GOING TO A CHIRO!!!! I have had patients tell me a chiro has claimed to be able to cure viral conjunctivitis through spinal manipulation. Whisky Tango Foxtrot.


I'm 40 yr old.
5'9''
154 lbs.
Injury etiology: unknown, but probably a combination of bad PT and chiro instruction on advanced stretching- to the point that I (and I'm at fault for not pumping te break) probably tore something. I included the bit about bad advice because I have never stretched and never needed to do so, but I accept responsibility for the mistake, because my stretching seems to have turned a minor injury in A major injury.
Swim bike run form: unremarkable
Nature of injury: aggravated by prolonged sitting, stretching, yanking, and hill running-also bike riding.

MRI suggests minor proximal hamstring tear because a bone spur was noted.

Rest doesn't really help because of inability to sit. Probably because of a co-existing ischial bursitis.

When the pain is worst it is a nerve pain from my right SI continuous to the lateral portion of the middle of my right calf.

When the pain is minor but unremitting, then it's a deep ache in my right lower butt cheek extending into the top of my right hamstring.

Sometimes if I bend at the waist then another pain appears that fees like it is a over-taut stretch of my lateral right hamstring. Almost like it's IT related or piriformis.
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [Calvinbal6] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Calvinbal6 wrote:
As a PT here, I know the leg yank thing is fun but doesn't yield results. Measuring leg length is the most ridiculous things practitioners do in the industry. There's no concensus on how to measure it and invariably you will get a different measurement each time you measure. The thought these people are using is that you have an upslip of the right ilium. This is another thing where actual measurements don't exist, it's more based on perception and "feel." It's kind of funny to me that people gravitate to the SI joint as the problem when it is one of the strongest and most stable areas of the body given all the ligamentous support and really only moves 10mm. The lumbar spine and hip move significantly more and are therefore much more likely to be injured. Conventional practice dictates to check out the lumbar spine first and then the hip. If all else fails go to the SI joint, but even then there are specific tests to do that must be provocative to rule in this area.

You likely don't do much when you yank on the leg and it's way more likely you have a lumbar spine issue. Find a physical therapist credentialed in McKenzie Mechanical Diagnosis and Treatment. Get an evaluation, do the homework involved, watch your posture and you'll be fine.

Thank you for your constructive input.

For a patient with proximal hamstring tendonopathy and ischial bursitis, would the leg yank re-injure something that was healed?

Maybe the bone spur noted on MRI pieced my sciatic nerve?

I've read where hamstring tendons are damaged that it can inflame and irritate the sciatic nerve and mimic a lumbar disc injury.
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [goregrind] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
goregrind wrote:
actually its not just chiro that can be bad, its also SOME doctors and PT's, you said you got two cortisone injections, why? unless you told doctor you just needed them to get through a certain race, whats the point, they arent going to heal high hamstring tendapathy, i am nearly two years in to the nightmare of hht, first doctors and PT all told me to stretch, which ofcourse made it much worse as im stretching a torn muscle, another doctor told me to go get plasma rich platelet injection which was $1200.00 and not covered by insurance, that didnt work, im on my fourth dr now and doing strengthening and ASTYM, but yeah, definitely yanking on the leg is not going to do anything for tears in your hamstring

Man, I know your pain.
Ironically, as far as pain is concerned, it's not that painful except that it limits my daily activities and puts me in a bad mood all day. I'd rate he pain at most times at 4/10.

I'm almost to the point that I'm going to start smoking weed every day and quit all activity for 6 months.

Weed makes the pain go down about 2-3 points.

Further, the jackasses that you see on TV that have ridden a couch for 20 years seem to get off and lose 100 lbs via exercise and diet without problems like hamstring tendonopathy.


Additional points of interest:
1) the pain is brought on while driving if I have to slam the brake, and
2) I can do squats and lunges without problem. Surprisingly, step back lunges usually make the pain lessen. I do those 1-2 times/week.
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [ktm520] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ktm520 wrote:
It is not called a "yank" or a "crack" in Chiropractic school it is called a "the million dollar roll"...figure it out:)

Although your yanking friend wasn't doing a lumber roll, the mere fact that they did that as you describes tells you all you need to know about the depth of his/her skills.

Dr. Phil will ask you; "What were you thinking?????"

Are you saying that the technique is intended to injure the patient so that they keep coming back?

Fuck it if that's the case because of my intensive attention to this injury, I will never allow that million dollar roll again, but my question is what did it do to me and how king will it take to get it better?

Up to that moment when he yanked my leg, that was the best block of training without pain and without bodily limitation in about 18 months.

The pain has continually lessened since the yank, but the decline in pain is lowing so that now I'm back to that low level ache- back where I was about 9 months ago.
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [xsive] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
xsive wrote:
ktm520 wrote:
It is not called a "yank" or a "crack" in Chiropractic school it is called a "the million dollar roll"...figure it out:)

Although your yanking friend wasn't doing a lumber roll, the mere fact that they did that as you describes tells you all you need to know about the depth of his/her skills.

Dr. Phil will ask you; "What were you thinking?????"

Are you saying that the technique is intended to injure the patient so that they keep coming back?

Fuck it if that's the case because of my intensive attention to this injury, I will never allow that million dollar roll again, but my question is what did it do to me and how king will it take to get it better?

Up to that moment when he yanked my leg, that was the best block of training without pain and without bodily limitation in about 18 months.

The pain has continually lessened since the yank, but the decline in pain is lowing so that now I'm back to that low level ache- back where I was about 9 months ago.

Edit: I looked up the roll and I do not think that's what was done. I was lying flat on my back.
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [doug in co] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
doug in co wrote:
the YANK is not part of any normal PT or orthopedic treatment, for good reasons. I suspect that all your PTs were also chiropractors..

Orthopedists discuss handling of leg length discrepancies,
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/423194_5
"Treatment of leg length inequality involves many different approaches, such as orthotics, epiphysiodesis, shortening, and lengthening, which can be used alone or combined in an effort to achieve equalization of leg lengths."
Heel lifts for minor discrepancies, major surgery otherwise..

I can't find any reference to the YANK in any of the literature,
http://www.physio-pedia.com/Leg_Length_Discrepancy
"Physical Therapy Management
The non-surgical intervention is mainly used for the functional and environmental types of leg length discrepancies. It is also applied to the mild category of limb length inequality.
Non-surgical intervention consists of stretching the muscles of the lower extremity. In this non-surgical intervention belongs also the use of shoe lifts."

PT typically involves muscle strengthening and stretches. The YANK is neither of these.
https://scienceblog.com/...-length-discrepancy/
"Examples of common treatment methods used in a physical therapy clinic would include spinal stabilization exercises (in flexion and extension) to provide support and alleviate pain and weakness caused by unilateral stress, and lower extremity and spinal stretches, to provide additional relief to unilateral stresses."

Also see,
http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=a00259

In future encounters with chiropractors, I'd encourage a preliminary discussion before they get their hands on you - ask them to explain what they will be doing, how it will be done, and the reasoning behind the treatment. Refuse any neck manipulations or YANKing.

In the meantime find an actual PT to start on the slow work of rehabilitation. This will involve time, exercises and stretches done both at home as well as at the PT office. Since you seem to have had really bad luck finding appropriate PTs, try the directory of specialists at:
http://aptaapps.apta.org/...ialists/default.aspx

2 of 4 PTs did the yank.
2 of 3 chiros did the yank.
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [xsive] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My physical therapist once told me "sometimes you just have to take some anti-inflammatories and leave it alone for a while" after battling hamstring tendonitis for almost a year. It finally went away after I stopped irritating it. :)
Last edited by: RZ: Oct 22, 16 12:30
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [RZ] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RZ wrote:
My physical therapist once told me "sometimes you just have to take some anti-inflammatories and leave it alone for a while" after battling hamstring tendonitis for almost a year. It finally went away after I stopped irritating it. :)
I hear ya. I'm at the end of my rope because I cannot ride my bike and cannot run long or hills.

I think that you might be right. Every time that I take time off from running then I ramp up my riding and vice versa.

I'll go the ibuprofen and rest (and swimming) route and check back in 30 days.
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [RZ] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RZ wrote:
My physical therapist once told me "sometimes you just have to take some anti-inflammatories and leave it alone for a while" after battling hamstring tendonitis for almost a year. It finally went away after I stopped irritating it. :)

how does an anti inflammatory help it other than you not feeling it? all doctors and PT told me the problem was not enough inflammation, like, no blood flow to the area, and that its been so long that the body just thinks its normal and healing process has stopped, thats why i tried the PRP and now am trying ASTYM for a second time, they all also tell me to keep moving to get blood flow there, as long as its not hurting it, so no running or biking
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [xsive] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
xsive wrote:
I hear ya. I'm at the end of my rope because I cannot ride my bike and cannot run long or hills.
.

Time for a swim block I would say.
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [goregrind] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
goregrind wrote:
RZ wrote:
My physical therapist once told me "sometimes you just have to take some anti-inflammatories and leave it alone for a while" after battling hamstring tendonitis for almost a year. It finally went away after I stopped irritating it. :)


how does an anti inflammatory help it other than you not feeling it? all doctors and PT told me the problem was not enough inflammation, like, no blood flow to the area, and that its been so long that the body just thinks its normal and healing process has stopped, thats why i tried the PRP and now am trying ASTYM for a second time, they all also tell me to keep moving to get blood flow there, as long as its not hurting it, so no running or biking

I don't know a lot about it, but there's a theory out there about chronic inflammation not being able to turn itself off. While inflammation is necessary for the healing process, there is also some collateral damage happening. This causes "healthy" cells to keep releasing chemical signals to the immune system that there's a problem. The way that I understand it is that it can cause a feedback loop of some sort that keeps the inflammation process going long after it's necessary. Especially when you keep insulting the injured area. Sometimes it needs to be knocked down so that the tissues can finally get to a state where they send the chemical "stop signals" to the immune system.

Yes, Inflammation is necessary to the healing process, but chronic inflammation causes collateral tissue damage. For example, just look at the destruction that autoimmune diseases do to a person.
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [goregrind] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
goregrind wrote:
RZ wrote:
My physical therapist once told me "sometimes you just have to take some anti-inflammatories and leave it alone for a while" after battling hamstring tendonitis for almost a year. It finally went away after I stopped irritating it. :)


how does an anti inflammatory help it other than you not feeling it? all doctors and PT told me the problem was not enough inflammation, like, no blood flow to the area, and that its been so long that the body just thinks its normal and healing process has stopped, thats why i tried the PRP and now am trying ASTYM for a second time, they all also tell me to keep moving to get blood flow there, as long as its not hurting it, so no running or biking

I've even read studies about anti-inflammatories causing tendon injuries to heal more slowly.

I think that we all have some sort of inflammation on a daily basis (whether from stress, food, medication, environmental irritants, etc), but I think that the key is to SOMEHOW reduce the inflammation so that it remains below the pain threshold.

My inflammation (assuming that my diagnoses are correct) waxes and wanes, so that tells me that it is volatile- which is a good thing because it indicates that at least to some degree that the injury/inflammation is subject to my body's reparative/restorative processes.

I have refused to take any anti-inflammatory for about 24 months because when I tried them, my injury did not resolve, but based on the fact that I have made noticeable progress for about the last 12-18 months, then I'm now willing to try medication again to see if it will make a difference and possibly reduce the inflammation below the pain threshold. If I can get it there, then allow a few more weeks of regeneration combined with then stopping the anti-inflammatory medication, then maybe I can get to a point where my muscles and connective tissues will all work in accord and then let me remain below the pain threshold until I breach that threshold by for example, chronic overuse or acute injury.
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [xsive] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I didn't say you had necessarily had the "roll", the "yank" falls into the same bucket of classic manipulations done by many chiropractors. It is simply a long axis pelvic distraction technique; the "roll" is a lumber rotational manipulation done is side-lying.

This techniques often can provide temporary relief and are done very quickly, however often without much else to support any structural changes, if that even occurred. From a recurring revenue model perspective they can work very well...hence the term million dollar roll.

I have had long-term educational interaction with PT's and Chiropractic alike and can tell you 15 -20 years ago their education was extremely different and they worked under different models e.g. most PT's will do "mobilizations" and Chiro's would do "manipulation". Things have come together a bit (especially among the good ones that continue the learning process while practicing), but certainly there remains differences in their core education, practice acts, as well as how they treat/manage patients.

These days good practitioners are not hard to find, but be aware that there are still "camps" in the treatment of musculo-skeletal disorders with practices that are highly specialized/certified in certain techniques. Some have drank the koolaid of one approach and can be as bad as a generalist in terms of success.

IMO, the greatest weakness in both is differential diagnose, so they tend to throw the same treatment regardless of etiology. Lots of very good techniques out there, but very little in terms of algorithms for deploying.

A good place to start for PT is below and find someone that invested the time an effort to obtain advanced certification in orthopedics:

http://aptaapps.apta.org/...ialists/default.aspx


Cheers.
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [Meathead] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Meathead wrote:
imsparticus wrote:
Where did your chiropractor go to school (get his degree)?


She graduated from Life University in Atlanta and is a professor there.

That's a real place?

Looks like they had some accreditation issues that required a Federal judge to resolve. But it appears they are in fact a real accredited college.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [ktm520] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ktm520 wrote:
I didn't say you had necessarily had the "roll", the "yank" falls into the same bucket of classic manipulations done by many chiropractors. It is simply a long axis pelvic distraction technique; the "roll" is a lumber rotational manipulation done is side-lying.

This techniques often can provide temporary relief and are done very quickly, however often without much else to support any structural changes, if that even occurred. From a recurring revenue model perspective they can work very well...hence the term million dollar roll.

I have had long-term educational interaction with PT's and Chiropractic alike and can tell you 15 -20 years ago their education was extremely different and they worked under different models e.g. most PT's will do "mobilizations" and Chiro's would do "manipulation". Things have come together a bit (especially among the good ones that continue the learning process while practicing), but certainly there remains differences in their core education, practice acts, as well as how they treat/manage patients.

These days good practitioners are not hard to find, but be aware that there are still "camps" in the treatment of musculo-skeletal disorders with practices that are highly specialized/certified in certain techniques. Some have drank the koolaid of one approach and can be as bad as a generalist in terms of success.

IMO, the greatest weakness in both is differential diagnose, so they tend to throw the same treatment regardless of etiology. Lots of very good techniques out there, but very little in terms of algorithms for deploying.

A good place to start for PT is below and find someone that invested the time an effort to obtain advanced certification in orthopedics:

http://aptaapps.apta.org/...ialists/default.aspx


Cheers.

Thank you for that clarification. I guess that I assumed the worst by thinking that some techniques are intended to cause minor injury for the sake of short-term relief.
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [Jason80134] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Actually, I do generalize, and it works for me. Generally, I assume that every chiropractor is a chiropractor because he/she did not get into medical school. I also believe that Americans who go to medical school in Grenada, do so because they did not get into a U.S. med school. I also believe that generally, podiatrists and osteopaths are podiatrists and osteopaths because they did not get into medical school. There may be exceptions, but I believe there are few.

I believe that graduates of Florida State University and the University of Florida have one thing in common, they both were accepted to Florida State University (I went to neither).

I believe that generally, college football and basketball players have much lower SAT scores than their non-athlete counterparts at the same school. Again, there are exceptions.

I believe that generally, psychics are scam artists. I believe that, generally, the earth is warming and mankind is contributing to that trend. I believe in science, and I believe there is a reason why no major U.S. university offers a degree in chiropractic anything.
Quote Reply
Re: Should I get a lawyer, a surgeon, or just take a chill pill? [xsive] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I went through some seriously painful issues with my neck. Doctors were talking surgery as I walked in the door. My scalene muscles had tightened up, because of this my nerves were being pinched. I could not even lay down because of pain. I went through chiro (helped, but more importantly educated me), deep tissue massage (so painful I had to have her pause every 30 seconds), and stretching exercises. All of it helped, but for years I still had trouble periodically. My muscles could tighten back up, pain would shoot down my arms, and I was very prone to cramping. I would up the stretching until it went away. I also have suffered for years from infrequent, but painful, sciatica.

About 4 months ago I got into myofascial release, or in my case 'The Ming Method.' Basically it is proper hydration and using special stretches for the fascia. I also use some light self massage on my neck. I have not felt this good in a long time. I chose the stretches for the areas I felt I needed to work and they work. I choose some stretches for my hips, and I have not had a flair up of the sciatica since.

Anyways, food for thought. I hope you get it worked out.

BTW- My Chiro used to do massage, is an athlete, and rarely cracked me. She was more about manipulation. She also educated me about traits I have that I never noticed. For example, I keep my left arm very still while walking or running- sometime because a bag or backpack is over that shoulder. It is healthier to move both arms about the same amount, or the body tries to compensate. She also drove past me one day while I was running, texted me with advice on how I was holding my body. She was very knowledgeable. Sadly she moved to a different state.

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC
Quote Reply

Prev Next