Just like running, increasing your distance will naturally decrease your speed over that distance. So without specific numbers, hard to say what you can/should improve.... however, it just seems like you would do better to swim more and swim longer - and make sure you are swimming smart sessions and working on different speeds/efforts/distances (i.e. not just swimming a slow, continuous long set, like 3000-4000 m). The wonderful side effect is that you will improve both your run and bike, by following that formula.

Right there with you. I am incredibly fortunate to have a swim coach (herself an accomplished swimmer) who is able to articulate and demonstrate the same basic concepts in a variety of different ways until the light bulb comes on. I am an appalling swimmer, relative to the general Slowtwitch crowd, and to make any meaningful gains has taken over five years of concentrated effort and coaching.

The small marginal gains and how hard they come to some people makes it such a frustrating experience that it's easy to decide that it's not worth spending the time on, at which point it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Fine if you're like me and you're toddling along at the BOP. Not fine if you have aspirations of actually hitting the podium sometime ever.

Pieces of advise

advice #1 - forget about working on technique for now. Be a slave to the pace clock. (I mean, technique is important, but that's not working for you right now, is it?)

#2 - forget about your 50m sprint speed. It's largely irrelevant. What you want is to improve your speed using a similar technique that you'd use for a 400-1500m swim. a 50 stroke is almost a completely different stroke than a middle distance or distance stroke

#3 - to achieve 3, you need to spend a lot of time working at slightly faster than your 400 pace. That's gonna mean lots of 50's, 75's and 100's, either "best average" or "descending" types of sets. Build through the sets so you're finishing strong.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Thanks for the reply!

That's what i thought as well so 2 years ago i started swimming 5 times per week with an age group squad. Did lots of fast intervals but didn't improve my times.
After a while i sort of gave up with the high volume swimming and reduced the swim frequency to 2 times per week. I did incorporate a lot of stretching though and got my time down to 5:52 for 400 scm, still a long way removed from 5 flat though.

Simply swimming a lot does not seem to work for me so for the upcoming months i will focus on strength training (as others also adviced) and try to improve my pull and catch by gaining a bit of upper body strength.
Hopefully that will do the trick to get me closer to my goal times :)

Here's the big question: when you went to 5x a week, did you reduce your bike and run volume or did it stay the same?

Tim

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I did, i completely stopped riding my bike for i few months until i got used to the increased volume.
Once swimming 5x per week started feeling normal again i increased cycling volume.
I didn't feel exceptionally tired during these swimming blocks i just never got any faster.
I've been told that my lack of improvement is largely due to my slow stroke rate and dropping elbow during the pull phase. I just don't know how to fix it and even though i am by no means a training expert, it doesn't seem like swimming more or harder is the solution....

I don’t know just how slow your rate is, but if that’s truly the limiter, then invest in a tempo trainer.

As far as dropping the elbow, unless it’s extreme it’s not what’s preventing you from hitting 5:00 for a 400, especially not at your age. To fix it, drills can help a bit but they aren’t magic. At some point you just have to stop doing that thing and htfu

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

So a disclaimer here....adult onset swimmer, started a few years ago to get into tri's....after about 2 years went from a 1:45/100LCM down to a sub 1:30/100LCM CSS pace.
I don't believe you need to swim lots to achieve this. It needs to be a combination of quality individualised coaching combined with swimming. Your typical poolside squad coach has barely enough time to run a session let alone give each swimmer proper feedback on stroke etc. You need to seek out someone who can work on things from both an on top of the water and under the water perspective, you need a video analysis from under the water as well showing what is happening and then working to improve all of those aspects.

50m sprints are useful in some ways but the stroke mechanics are completely different to what you need over longer distances. 100m repeats on short cycle times are great from a swim fitness perspective. But you need to build decent swim specific endurance by long intervals (400m and above with shortish rest times). However, you need a good stroke before doing this.

In terms of your video.....I say it a lot but there is no real power in your stroke. You cannot see clear engagement of your lats and pecs with your catch and pull so you are not generating much power through your stroke. Pull and paddles work is great for helping with some power and muscular endurance, as is some relatively simple gym work. Your body position looks OK in the water (ie hips and feet are close to the surface) but you are snaking down the pool a bit. Stroke rate looked reasonable just eyeballing it, I would not think that is a huge issue at the moment, it is what you are doing to generate forward propulsion that needs to be worked on.

You will get there, rather than invest in spending countless more hours at the pool invest in a good swim video analysis service, look for a swimsmooth certified coach or look at Effortless Swimming where you can send in videos to Brenton to be analysed by him.

 
Hi, based on the video I would work on:

a: Learn to breath on both sides, this will give you a balanced body. It's hard and in a race you can drop back to single side breathing but being able to switch sides is a good skill to have.
b: you aren't 'catching' the water, I don't see a high elbow or any forearm catch. (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgPQRrEfUJk).

When you think about catching the water you should visualize your forearm also catching water, the video above gives a good example.

c: I would get closer to the way before I flipped but that's probably just me.

I'm not super fast but the stuff above got me out of a IM at 1hr 15ish and not tired at all. My limitation was 2x/week practice so I made sure I didn't have any junk swimming going on. every couple weeks I would swim a mile+ but in a 25yard pool that was mind numbing.

I do a lot of mind puzzles when I'm doing laps but one of the best for me is to try to tell how much slippage I get when pull. I do this by looking at the lane marker and seeing where my hand comes out. Much like paddling a canoe you could think of the fact that you are planting your hand and pulling yourself along. ( I read that somewhere but don't remember where ).

I've been a fan of swimsmooth for a long time - http://previous.swimsmooth.com/catch.html I would do a clinic if they were nearby.

I finally had a look at your video, honestly your stroke rate is fine. The biggest thing I see is that (other than those atrocious turns..) you’re just using your arms to pull. There’s no drive coming from the core or shoulders.

Do a google search for Gary hall sr videos (the Race Club) where he talks about coupling motions. it’s also referred to as the serape effect (I think Sheila Taormina coined that term). Either swimsmooth or effortless swimming, maybe both of them, have done YouTube videos on it. On this site, findingfreestyle has made a few helpful posts on kick timing and how to develop it, that plays into the coupling motions quite well.

Another source (Russel Mark from USA swimming) has described it as rotating your shoulders “forward” rather than side to side.

All just different ways of saying essentially the same thing. If you don’t really get it from one source, the other can help you “get it”.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Can I ask what his qualifications are? ;)

Yeah, artocious is probably the best way to describe my turns XD

Thanks i had a look at a few articles and will do my best to implement the tips tonight!

LOL

I remember THAT question - and the very detailed answer from Gary Hall Sr.
😂😂😂[/reply]

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If you really want to do something, you'll find a way.
If you don't, you'll find an excuse.

My swim coach describes it as "pulling yourself over a box". That was one of the most useful visuals she ever gave me.

This is what I'm seeing as well. Your forearm isn't going vertical until it's well past your shoulder. As such, you're never engaging the bigger muscles in the core, lats or back. Look at this picture as another "what it's supposed to look like". You hear it a lot, but it should feel like reaching over a barrel or box.

Pretty classy response, if I remember correctly...!