As someone that started really late in life, I'd still say it's overrated. Dump the pull buoy and swim hard and fast before you spend lap after lap with fins. Body position matters most. If you can keep your ass up with a 2 beat you're fine. If you have buoy butt (dropped butt in water), first learn to hold the correct body position.

Thank you. Someone gets it.

Dev and others, I would love to hear your thoughts on the timing aspect of kicking. I think this is one of the reasons I "magically" get 8 seconds faster per hundred at times. But, I tend to lose it and go back to panic swimming, drowning mode. Are there any good resources on how to time and how to synchronize rhythm with kick and upper body? Besides swim volume, I think this may be the biggest limiter for me. Yes, I am a very weak swimmer, especially compared to bike/run.
-I and nearly 40 and could never dance to save my life. Please help me find my rhythm.

Against my better judgement I'll reply. Brian, it seems your massive ego is only exceeded by your lack of reading comprehension. I stated that there were most likely OTHER areas that would be of much more benefit, and it seems many agree. First off, an adult onset swimmer will (almost) never have the flexibility in the ankles of a 12 year old girl, especially after run training. And so what if he ends up being able to kick 50 with the girls. I do kick sets, but only in warmup and mostly for learning proper body position and balance/timing. Vertical kicking and no board with fins can be helpful to some.
I have been around triathlon and swimming for many years and have seen the fads and techniques that have been later debunked. I was a swimmer through college (sure, only NAIA and D3) and then coached 4 years, so I would say my swimming knowledge may be appropriate to make some statements. The way to swim faster is to eliminate drag and improve propulsion. So, by most knowledgeable experts the propulsion from upper body vs kick is 95% to 5%, and the 5% is pretty much a stretch only obtained by the likes of Phelps, etc. So you feel it is a wise use of time to work on the 5%? Also, triathletes are NOT swimmers who swim usually a minimum of 10-16 times/week. Why use valuable swim time with endless kick sets to work on 5% possible extra propulsion, which they would not use when swimming in a triathlon as it uses way too much oxygen. I have seen these type methods spill over from swimming, and they seldom apply to triathletes. Sure, we did hypoxic training, wind sprints, 24x25 with every 4th underwater....and they have been shown to be not terribly useful for this group. (The jury is still out even for value for swimmers).

And the Usain Bolt comment is from Gerry Rodriguez, who it seems you could learn quite a bit from. Chill man, you are not the only word out there.

Wow, I thought this was just me! I think it's the main reason that I find time in the pool hard work, so if you find your cure be sure to share it!

This post is worth 6 months of many other coaches monthly fees. That number goes upwards in the case Betelgeuse finds this thread and obliterates it with the usual nonsense.

Total respect for the dude...
But I agree with the above. My w/u consists of a whopping 150yds of kicking (no kickboard) with normal sized fins. I only do this because my ankle flexibility is terrible (broke both more than once thanks to motocross).

Save the legs and learn to kick as little as possible while still going fast (OK, fast for a triathlete). Now to be fair, for the newby tri-geek some of the training might be really hard kick sets to learn the correct technique (i.e., no scissor, or "running"). Good technique has to be learned somehow, so, the dude is right. But, once you "got it" for a triathlete (non pro, anyway), it's not the best use of time to work on the kick for added propulsion - especially when many swims are wetsuit aided.

enjoy the journey

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

I would consider learning kicking more a technique as opposed to kick sets. Obviously form is paramount, but kick sets, especially when done with a kick board does little for our type of swimming. One NEVER swims in the position a kick board puts a body in (at least no one I've ever seen yet). It also can put more strain on a lower back. If kicking, my thoughts are to use a snorkle, face down and work on body position and a narrow kick.
There's also a very good thread going with some excellent input by Monty and Thomas as to pool vs open water swimming, which further illustrates the difference in technique between how we race and pool swimmers. Good luck and swim more.





Now to be fair, for the newby tri-geek some of the training might be really hard kick sets to learn the correct technique (i.e., no scissor, or "running"). Good technique has to be learned somehow, so, the dude is right. But, once you "got it" for a triathlete (non pro, anyway), it's not the best use of time to work on the kick for added propulsion - especially when many swims are wetsuit aided.

Bad kicker with a swim time of 1:09? That's actually fantastic.

Train the kick. You'll probably go sub 1 hour easily.

This is pretty much all not true. Kicking adds minimal propulsion unless you have very large feet and kick very hard (that's why you don't see distance swimmers kick very much). Kicking has an additional aerobic cost: how could it not? Aren't you doing work? Is it free? How does kicking, which can only serve to increase your frontal area over not moving your legs, provide better streamlining? You don't need to be kicking to get a "solid anchor": see distance swimmers who do very little kicking in a race.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Again, not true. You can get perfect synchronization without kick training.

Why do you think that any kind of kicking you might do in a half ironman will drop 4-5 seconds per 100m? You'd be lucky to get that much in a single 100m, after which you'd be trashed from the effort expended. Just think what Ledecky would be doing if she dropped 5% if she kicked like you suggest!

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Scissor kicking is more often than not a symptom of a problem with your stroke that is unrelated to the kick, like crossover, poor arm position on entry, etc. Fix the problem, your swim speed increases, and as an added bonus the scissor kick goes away.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I have an entirely unsubstantiated opinion that kick sets will help your swim speed.
It's not directly through added propulsion, since distance swimmers kick very little.
It's not through getting better timing for the kick, since that is best trained without doing kick sets specifically.
However I do think it can improve that nebulous concept 'feel for the water' and improve your hydrodynamics, which is free speed.

Personally I don't kick in tri swims at all, except for desert dude's list - a well-timed kick can be helpful in navigating waves, negotiating buoys, etc. Never do kick sets, since I wind up in the middle of the pool kicking furiously with no forward progress, which gets discouraging.
That said, for the last two months I've been doing nothing but kick sets with short swim fins, due to broken ribs stopping play. Basically 25yd sprints, on back or on front with snorkel. It will be interesting to see if there is any improvement after getting back to normal swim training..

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"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

Kicking properly adds not aerobic load over kicking poorly. It does add some aerobic load over not kicking at all. But I have never been to a try where the people around are doing zero kicking. Some nicely timed and coordinated light 2 beat and some frantic flailing and some "kicking like crazy". But almost no one is moving around like they are doing band pull. Since no one is "not kicking at all" and thus expending SOME aerobic load kicking poorly (even light poor kicking has aerobic load), better to do light good kicking.

So I should have just written a good kick adds propulsion and better streamline at no aerobic cost over a poor kick (given that everyone in a try is doing SOME kicking). If as many people do no kicking as is claimed, it would all be nice calm laminar water behind people! It never is. As for good kicking adding streamline, as Jason points it, just keeping the feet properly plantar flexed, is what he was getting at on the swimmer threads, vs all the frontal of your feet point vertically to the bottom of the pool/lake/ocean.

You make it sound like it is impossible to point your toes unless you are kicking.

Yeah, if you consider moving your feet about six inches in a two beat timing pattern to be "kicking", then nobody doesn't kick at all. Nevertheless, the point of kicking in triathlon/endurance swimming is not to add propulsion or streamlining, as you seemed to indicate in response to a thread about "Importance of kick training in triathlon", since it is not responsible for either.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I suppose it comes down to time. Working on your kicking will make you a better swimmer and will make you a better triathlon swimmer, but the improvement in performances will be small and the amount of time you end up putting in to do kick work will be high. If I do a 1km kick set that would probably take me 25 - 30mins (I'm a slow kicker) whereas if I was doing freestyle e.g 10 x 100 on 1.20, that's just over 13mins. If you're time poor, it's not worth it. If you've got time, then yup definitely do the kick work.

I actually don't kick at all when racing....all my swims are wetsuit legal and I swim faster if I just pull.

(And yes, I am, at best, a MOP swimmer)

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I guess I'm a fop* swimmer and also barely kick, pretty much kicking for balance only, rather than propulsion, kicking more as distance is reduced. I'd never tell anyone not to train their kick, but it's certainly not a priority


* How does one qualify as a FOP swimmer, top 10, top 20 out of 200 odd?