Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [Hutch888] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 5:18

Post #26 of 44 (1886 views)

I think you are largely overvaluing the opinion of a pro triathlete. Aside from them not even knowing the course, their race is totally different than the AG race. In most instances, I don't think they could provide great insight. Anything they would likely contribute would be generic in nature and applicable to all races. You would be best to find a pro that has raced a specific course 5-6x to get anything really helpful.

As someone else stated, a successful AGer would likely provide more. Or better yet...a coach. Imagine a knowledgeable coach who has worked with 20 athletes or more that completed the same race. That is 20 data files where s/he could determine where athletes make the biggest mistakes 20 files to better understand the course. Most coaches worth their pay research the courses, read race reports and talk to finishers prior to writing their race plan for the athletes.

Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [Cody Beals] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 5:34

Post #27 of 44 (1882 views)

Cody Beals wrote:

I offer consulting services, though it's not something I've advertised or made any significant money from so far. That sideline came about when I realized how much time I was spending on a daily basis answering questions via Slowtwitch pm, Facebook, email, Skype, etc. In my case, questions generally fall into a few categories: equipment selection, bike fit, training, endocrine issues and how to go pro/hack it as a pro.

Helping other athletes out is definitely gratifying, but the return on all that time in terms of dollars or even exposure has been next to nil. I'm more than willing to give away a lot for free on social media and in private discussions as a way to give back to the triathlon community for the generosity I've received. But I also recognize that consulting is among the few marketable skills that I have as a pro.

I don't really have a fixed rate in place. I doubt there'd be much interest at $199 for 20 minutes! I think a sliding scale based on the nature of the consulting and the financial means of the athlete makes more sense. I'm much more inclined to donate my time to young athletes, beginners and neo-pros, than to the wealthier, more experienced demographic. I think it's only fair to charge when the same people hit me up again and again, or we're delving into very specific or detailed subject matter.

I get a lot of interest in coaching, which I don't offer for a few reasons. First and foremost, my focus on my own racing career would compromise the quality of coaching and shortchange athletes. I get the sense that many athletes are willing to pay for coaching, but a lot fewer recognize the value of consulting.

People tend to take advantage of you when they know it's "friendly" advice. Not in a subversive way or anything, but when you start charging for stuff like that and it becomes less informal and more "official," the tone of the conversation changes.

Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 5:35

Post #28 of 44 (1881 views)

Trispoke wrote:

I think you are largely overvaluing the opinion of a pro triathlete. Aside from them not even knowing the course, their race is totally different than the AG race. In most instances, I don't think they could provide great insight. Anything they would likely contribute would be generic in nature and applicable to all races. You would be best to find a pro that has raced a specific course 5-6x to get anything really helpful.

As someone else stated, a successful AGer would likely provide more. Or better yet...a coach. Imagine a knowledgeable coach who has worked with 20 athletes or more that completed the same race. That is 20 data files where s/he could determine where athletes make the biggest mistakes 20 files to better understand the course. Most coaches worth their pay research the courses, read race reports and talk to finishers prior to writing their race plan for the athletes.

ding ding!

Last edited by: James Haycraft: Aug 30, 16 5:36

Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 7:59

Post #29 of 44 (1833 views)

Toefuzz wrote:

I feel I can get most of that information for free through race reports, ST, etc.

That is thing though you can spend hundreds of hours on Slowtwitch, reading race reports, etc, and it won't equal the value to a 20 minute phone call. And just as an example. How many times do people come on here to ask questions and you wonder how they came to think that XYZ is fast.

They have to be able to discern from all the reading what is and is not valuable, who is valuable and who is not. Now the typical person that loves hanging on ST may not find this service valuable, but for someone just checking the Ironman box it can be worth its weight in gold

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Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 8:21

Post #30 of 44 (1811 views)

Trispoke wrote:

I think you are largely overvaluing the opinion of a pro triathlete. Aside from them not even knowing the course, their race is totally different than the AG race. In most instances, I don't think they could provide great insight. Anything they would likely contribute would be generic in nature and applicable to all races. You would be best to find a pro that has raced a specific course 5-6x to get anything really helpful.

As someone else stated, a successful AGer would likely provide more. Or better yet...a coach. Imagine a knowledgeable coach who has worked with 20 athletes or more that completed the same race. That is 20 data files where s/he could determine where athletes make the biggest mistakes 20 files to better understand the course. Most coaches worth their pay research the courses, read race reports and talk to finishers prior to writing their race plan for the athletes.

I think it really depends on the pro triathlete. Most pro triathletes are not worth listening to IMO, a lot of them are terrible coaches, yet people pay exorbitant fees to be coached by them. Now there are some good people out there but the problem is sorting out the difference. They are good because they are gifted but they could have been much better athletes.

Personally, when I think about myself, someone who has raced over 10 Ironmans as an age-grouper, who race ITU worlds, Kona, and 70.3 worlds an age-grouper. Won races as an age-grouper. Someone who has raced small fields, mano-e-mano, wet cold races, freezing race, racing with wind advisories on winding roads. Racing in heat. Racing at the front, racing solo, racing in the middle, racing in the back, time trials, negative splitting all sorts of runs, racing back-to-back days, racing back-to-back weeks. Raced at Kona as a pro under the point system.

And given how much thought I have given to everything, the course, the competitors, the conditions, my equipment, nutrition, sleep, recovery, the entire process

And the real biggie, - I learned to swim at 26 years old. Very unusual to have someone learn to swim so late in life.

And all of this was done myself, spending the hours learning and honing my craft as I continued to grow and grow.

I think it could be a very valuable experience

On the flip side, go to talk to coaches, set them up simply by asking them, "I want to go as fast as possible at my next race, what tires and tubes should I run" you will find that 99% of coaches don't know the simplest thing to do for their athletes to go faster.

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Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 8:37

Post #31 of 44 (1802 views)

The GMAN wrote:

Craig P wrote:

There are really a few confounding issues with the actual race advice part, or the equipment part when asking pros for advice.

#1 they aren't actually racing the same race as many Ag'ers. Ie.in a 70.3, If pros go off at 6:45 am and do a 3:46 race they are done at 10:30 am. If you are in the last wave as a 35-39 y.o.male. starting at 8:08 and doing a respectable/top 20, 4:45, you are finishing at nearly 1pm. The wind has changed, the sun and heat have changed, your ride consisted of saying "on your left" at least 1150 times and dodging all manner athletes, drafting packs and a "wheres waldo" approach to aid stations. So really, pros advice is really less valuable than you might think, not that they aren't a knowledgeable information source overall, just not really going to have a huge value, since they are racing a different way and "racecourse". Additionally they train for and ration energy in a race in a different way, as they are both "racing their own race" and racing others head-to-head simultaneously.

#2 As an Ag'er your equipment needs are different. In many cases the pros are as fast as they are going to get and equipment maximization has an effect on their time that translates into $$. A 2-minute advantage can be a solid 3rd vs. 5th and $1500 vs $500. A 3-minute advantage for most Agers is a 5:10- 5:13 and gets you from 47th to 43rd place in your AG.

Cody's point is a great one about coaching, he doesn't do it because he is focused on his racing career and he doesn't have the time to dedicate to do it right. I can assure you that coaching takes a ton of time and many workouts are given up for the sake of the athletes being coached, just like any job, you owe a certain level of care to your clients that requires some sacrifice that most pros can't truly afford.

If you really want advice and to chat with many pros...offer to buy them a nice dinner and a post race beer and use the opportunity to pick their brain. Many will take you up on it for the free meal.

Pretty much this. They are not racing remotely the same kind of race as the AG'ers. I think picking the brain of someone who is a successful AG racer with a successful work career and successful family life is about a billion times more applicable.

I'd much rather hear about how some mere mortal finished an IM in 9:30, whilst holding down a job and family than asking some genetically gifted freak who does this full time how they can do Kona in 8 hours.[/quote

What about asking your regular old age-grouper, one who worked 24-7 on call as medical device sales rep. Who never swam more than 400 yards in pool before having to stop to look at his pager. Who never slept, worked freakishly hard, and continued to grow and grow. Who had a setback because his body was shutting down from the lack of rest and recovery, but kept pushing. Qualified for Kona as an age-grouper. Raced as an age-grouper - 10+ Ironmans and 90+ triathlons. Kept working at it day after day. Turned pro, kept honing his craft, never gave up. Went to Kona as a pro. Keeps working at it?

At the end of the day, there are probably 10 age-groupers right now I know by name who have way more talent than me but will never ever accomplish as much (I know I haven't accomplish that much either). There are probably many more that I don't know. How does one sift thru the age-grouper who got to 9:30 on pure talent, but you think is hard work, versus the guy who by natural talent is a good hour slower, but got to 9:30 by double crossing all their t's and double dotting all their i's?

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Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [Hutch888] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 9:31

Post #32 of 44 (1775 views)

Some great responses to my original post. Really appreciate the former and current pros who took time to give their POV as well. Thank you, everyone.

The "pay-for-access" revenue stream suggested in my originating post is just a single idea to address/solve the bigger opportunity/problem: How to increase funding for pro athletes (and are AGs going to open their wallets)?

The AGs have the $ so the ability to pay is there. Looking at this USAT demographic data, the average annual income of triathletes in US is $126K, 26% of triathletes earn over $150k. https://www.teamusa.org/...tisport/demographics

But, what is the AG's willingness? I think watson79's post is great in reframing the issue to focus on the true customer. I will take his suggestion and see what directional info can be gathered about the competitive AG 's willingness to "open their wallets to pros, what they want and how much it's worth to them." In the spirit of finishing what I started (no DNF!), I will share key takeaways or link to the follow-up post.

Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 9:56

Post #33 of 44 (1759 views)

Thomas Gerlach wrote:

Trispoke wrote:

I think it could be a very valuable experience

On the flip side, go to talk to coaches, set them up simply by asking them, "I want to go as fast as possible at my next race, what tires and tubes should I run" you will find that 99% of coaches don't know the simplest thing to do for their athletes to go faster.

There are always exceptions to the rule. You might provide a great service, I am not questioning your personal devotion to the sport. You obviously fall outside the norm. Could Pro X or Y provide any of that information? Could the overwhelming majority of pros provide much more than generic advice? The answer is probably no. If I want to specifically know more about IM Chattanooga, a coach with several finishers is likely to provide more technical detail than a pro who showed up and raced it once. That's my point.

On your flip side, I do agree. However, you can also say that about pros too. How many threads do we have every year questioning their use of equipment or race tactics?

Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [Hutch888] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 9:57

Post #34 of 44 (1759 views)

Macca was the first I knew of to do this. He was/is a partial owner of a bike shop in Sydney; or maybe it was just that he worked with a lot of bike shops because for a while he was the sole importer for Kestrel into Australia... Anyway. So he would hang out a lot at his LBS, and he got people all the time just wanting to pick his brain. And, Macca being Macca, he realized his own value. So his stance was, roughly, "you can have an hour of my time - just you and me - at the local Starbucks for (something like) $150. I'll buy the coffee."

I've never done this myself, but maybe you're telling me I should.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 10:56

Post #35 of 44 (1716 views)

GMAN wrote: "They are not racing remotely the same kind of race as the AG'ers. I think picking the brain of someone who is a successful AG racer with a successful work career and successful family life is about a billion times more applicable. - I'd much rather hear about how some mere mortal finished an IM in 9:30, whilst holding down a job and family than asking some genetically gifted freak"

Thanks for your comments & for writing this! That's the thinking I had in mind when establishing a coaching service, that, and trying to be as local as possible, meeting face to face with clients at intake, and along the way. Naturally, it helps to have a "real-job" to pay the day to day bills and therefore, it requires a smaller client load.

http://www.fitspeek.com the Fraser Valley's fitness, wellness, and endurance sports podcast

Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [Hutch888] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 11:08

Post #36 of 44 (1707 views)

Your idea has a merit for a narrow range of "serious age-groupers". That would be young age groupers aspiring to be pros. I think it ends there.
Given myself as an average 45 year old in this sport, after 10 years in it, I share nothing with the pro side of it. Neither do I train, nor do I race like they do. I have respect and admiration for what they do but it has no bearing on me.
Their race dynamics are totally different from age group. So, I do not see a connection.
Your idea is good but market maybe narrow. Should they possibly engage in it, yes, why not, better some income than none. As long as they can find the audience. I am not totally discounting what you suggest.

Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 11:56

Post #37 of 44 (1681 views)

Trispoke wrote:

Thomas Gerlach wrote:

Trispoke wrote:

I think it could be a very valuable experience

On the flip side, go to talk to coaches, set them up simply by asking them, "I want to go as fast as possible at my next race, what tires and tubes should I run" you will find that 99% of coaches don't know the simplest thing to do for their athletes to go faster.

There are always exceptions to the rule. You might provide a great service, I am not questioning your personal devotion to the sport. You obviously fall outside the norm. Could Pro X or Y provide any of that information? Could the overwhelming majority of pros provide much more than generic advice? The answer is probably no. If I want to specifically know more about IM Chattanooga, a coach with several finishers is likely to provide more technical detail than a pro who showed up and raced it once. That's my point.

On your flip side, I do agree. However, you can also say that about pros too. How many threads do we have every year questioning their use of equipment or race tactics?

I agree 100% with what you're saying here - I don't think highly of many of my fellow pros when it comes to things like equipment choices. There are always going to be people better to seek advice from - the challenge is being able to find those people.

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Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [Hutch888] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 12:11

Post #38 of 44 (1673 views)

Happy to facilitate this 😉

http://www.sweat7.com
Facebook Page: Sweat7
Twitter: @sweat7coaching

Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [Hutch888] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 12:34

Post #39 of 44 (1646 views)

Would love to see triathlon and cycling adopt a means of a revenue stream from something other than it's users. That being from viewership through means of TV deals and ticket sales. The courses and events just aren't that appealing for mass audience. I love the idea of The Island House Triathlon and other races that implement a sprint style relay race. Creating a venue like what F1 has would be a great way to get ticket sales involved. And maybe different styles of races like the two I mentioned.

Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [Hutch888] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 12:55

Post #40 of 44 (1632 views)

I have a lot to say on related topics such aswhat those with a Pro Card should really be focusing on.

However to stay on topic with this service, the question would be why hire an athlete with a Pro card and not a good coach with a lot of experience? If it's about supporting the athlete's lifestyle, pursuit of the athlete's goals, or meeting them in person because it's cool to you, it's one thing. If you are looking for the best guidance, you can probably do better.

If you do it, make sure you hire someone with experience working with AG's of all ability levels, ages and genders. As mentioned by a lot of folks here, those trying to go from 13 to 12.5hrs have different needs than an athlete going from 10.5-10hrs and certainly different needs than someone racing at the front of the race.

This also would most likely only work in larger triathlon hubs with a lot of athletes to choose from. Most areas will only have a few with a Pro card, limiting your ability to screen and unless they are independently wealthy, or supported by a spouse or family, many of them already have a day job!

Professional Triathlete
Owner of Blake Becker Multisport Coaching LLC / Team BBMC
blakebeck@gmail.com
http://www.teambbmc.com

Last edited by: Blakebecker: Aug 30, 16 12:55

Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 13:24

Post #41 of 44 (1595 views)

Rappstar wrote:

Macca was the first I knew of to do this. He was/is a partial owner of a bike shop in Sydney; or maybe it was just that he worked with a lot of bike shops because for a while he was the sole importer for Kestrel into Australia... Anyway. So he would hang out a lot at his LBS, and he got people all the time just wanting to pick his brain. And, Macca being Macca, he realized his own value. So his stance was, roughly, "you can have an hour of my time - just you and me - at the local Starbucks for (something like) $150. I'll buy the coffee."

I've never done this myself, but maybe you're telling me I should.

Please don't lower yourself to anything Macca has ever done. My guess is he told people he'd buy the coffee but somehow flipped it. The guy's a complete douchebag. He's a master of upselling (or sales in general) but his follow through is weak. Obviously my hate towards Macca has nothing to do with this post but if I was a pro like Jordan, I wouldn't follow his lead on anything.

Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [Hutch888] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 14:18

Post #42 of 44 (1582 views)

Hutch888 - feel free to reach out to me any time if you want to discuss more in depth. Building new products is my vocation. You can see my background here:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonwatson

I'm on sabbatical right now, so I have plenty of free time. If I can spend some of that time helping someone with new products in the endurance sports domain, all the better! Best way to get me is blwatson [at] gmail.

Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 17:01

Post #43 of 44 (1538 views)

The GMAN wrote:

Pretty much this. They are not racing remotely the same kind of race as the AG'ers. I think picking the brain of someone who is a successful AG racer with a successful work career and successful family life is about a billion times more applicable.

I'd much rather hear about how some mere mortal finished an IM in 9:30, whilst holding down a job and family than asking some genetically gifted freak who does this full time how they can do Kona in 8 hours.

Remember we humans are on a continuum. I promise you that the "mere mortal" finishing in 9:30 while probably fitting in a little more training than you, is a good way towards being categorised as a "genetically gifted freak".

But I also agree that we have more in common with someone holding down a full time job and doing 10-20hrs of training a week, than a full-time pro training 20-30hrs a week and resting/recovering the rest of the time.

https://www.strava.com/athletes/nbrowne1

Re: Pro triathletes - Race specific insights for a fee? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 16 17:19

Post #44 of 44 (1528 views)

Thomas Gerlach wrote:

At the end of the day, there are probably 10 age-groupers right now I know by name who have way more talent than me but will never ever accomplish as much (I know I haven't accomplish that much either). There are probably many more that I don't know. How does one sift thru the age-grouper who got to 9:30 on pure talent, but you think is hard work, versus the guy who by natural talent is a good hour slower, but got to 9:30 by double crossing all their t's and double dotting all their i's?

This was my favourite thing about running. Getting out and working in training, then executing a race to beat that naturally better athlete, was/is the most satisfying thing for me in racing. [edit] although as David Epstein discusses in his book The Sports Gene, "talent" is a continuum across good by design, through to good by training. There's always success stories of those who weren't exceptional athletes when younger but were able to develop a love for a sport and through consistency were able to tap into their ability to develop their speed/endurance better than others to an extent that they became better than those initially thought to have the better "talent".[/edit]

Now as I get older and my body seems to struggle with the running training due to injuries, I get the chance to try something new in triathlon which has been great and exciting with the fast improvements. Hopefully more so in the next year as I learn how to swim adequately, and then sit on a bike for 5hrs in order to have a shot at a Kona Q!

Back on topic, and I think for a number of those with stereotypical endurance personalities, I think part of the appeal is research and "figuring it out" on your own. And once you've got to a certain level starting to reach out for coaching help, course & equipment tactics, etc.

https://www.strava.com/athletes/nbrowne1

Last edited by: nbrowne1: Aug 30, 16 17:24

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