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Re: Learning to swim (Better) [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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For everyone in the 50-54AG I recommend total immersion and avoid swimming hard.
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Re: Learning to swim (Better) [DrMattTri] [ In reply to ]
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DrMattTri wrote:
I disagree and would agree with the other posters above that recommend a new coach. If you have to take a 1min breather after only 50m and you're in otherwise good shape, it's silly to keep swimming without improving form---form/technique is clearly the limiter.

How do you know what the limiter is? You haven't seen him swim.

I know an independent observer told him "you have good form."
I know, through vast experience, that fitness and form are inextricable.

It sounds like the coach didn't meet the swimmers expectations. That is usually the coach's fault.
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Re: Learning to swim (Better) [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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You're right--I made an assumption and fitness is also important. But I based that on the OP stating his form is bad and most people with good form and even poor fitness can swim 50m without getting winded.
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Re: Learning to swim (Better) [DrMattTri] [ In reply to ]
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I'm leaning your way, also. Certainly swimming uses different muscles, and getting accustomed to working them takes a few weeks. BUT, only a few weeks, at most, for a fit person. Take a D1 college swimmer, drink beer for 30 years while working a desk job, hop in the pool for a week, and they will be faster than you are prepared to expect. I think it's the technique.

Agree that technique does come from practice, but only if the practice addresses the technique. Effective Adult Onset Swimming coaches are very special. I'd suggest finding an AOS coach that shares your goals and stop training bad habits. I don't think muscling your way through swim training is a good plan.
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Re: Learning to swim (Better) [Emma'sDad] [ In reply to ]
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Emma'sDad wrote:
I'm leaning your way, also. Certainly swimming uses different muscles, and getting accustomed to working them takes a few weeks. BUT, only a few weeks, at most, for a fit person. Take a D1 college swimmer, drink beer for 30 years while working a desk job, hop in the pool for a week, and they will be faster than you are prepared to expect. I think it's the technique.

Agree that technique does come from practice, but only if the practice addresses the technique. Effective Adult Onset Swimming coaches are very special. I'd suggest finding an AOS coach that shares your goals and stop training bad habits. I don't think muscling your way through swim training is a good plan.

The former D1 swimmer retains not only the form/technique but also a lot of the strength that he/she used to have in their D1 years. The main thing they've lost is endurance, e.g. the D1 guy can prob swim a 50 free within say 3 sec of his all-time PR even after say 20 yrs off. However, his 1650 would be more like 4 min slower, or 240 sec or around 7 sec/50 slower. There is some swim-specific strength involved in swimming (which is why virtually all swimmers have the "V-shaped torso"), and that swim-specific strength/endurance is what the novice swimmer has to develop. Certainly some coaching is needed but also much time and effort:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Learning to swim (Better) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I know people rip on Total Immersion but for a beginner it does help you get in the right body position and level to the water.

It also teaches you good arm entry and timing with hip driven strokes.

But after you have that forget it because eventually you need to work on a lot more volume, correct catch and pull, and fitness to increase your stroke rate.

I started with TI but quickly grew bored of the "dogma" because of the constant focus on overgliding and having a "pretty" stroke but not necessarily a fast stroke.

I think that TI has its place for people who want to learn to swim in a low stress manner but who dont ever ally plan to compete or get faster past a certain point.
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Re: Learning to swim (Better) [DrMattTri] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with AJ. For the vast majority of triathletes, initially, they don't have the strength and conditioning in the water to even get to the "technique." In my experience, learning how to swim more efficiently for a triathlete doesn't start with one on one technique lessons. The best place to start is with a team, with a coach on the deck all pushing you to swim faster. The coach can make the appropriate corrections during the practice as the swimmer gains strength and conditioning from the workouts. Again, in my experience, one on one technique lessons don't become really valuable and worthwhile until the swimmer can pace around 1:30/100 yards.

Hope this helps.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: Learning to swim (Better) [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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cbr shadow wrote:
I want to learn to swim better so I can participate in triathlon rather than just duathlon. I can swim about 50 meters and then have to rest because I'm completely exhausted. I'm in good shape (Strong cyclist, decent runner) but just can't get the swimming right. Usually when I try to swim I'll do 50 meters at a time and have to take a 1 minute break between "sets" of 50m.
I'm sure my form is pretty bad, and my breathing is very bad. I'm a bit stuck about where to get help though. I've been told to join a Master's class, but I've more recently read that you need to have a good base before even considering that (Which I clearly dont have).
I signed up for 1-on-1 lessons with a swim coach last year who said "Your form looks good" and just had me do drills for the whole class. In the end I didn't benefit from the lessons at all since she couldn't spot what I was doing incorrectly.
Are there classes available for someone in my position? I feel like if I take "adult swim lessons" I'll be with people who are afraid to let go of the wall, and if I take a Master's swim class I'll hold everyone back. Is there something in between those two?

I recently moved to Daly City, CA in case someone by chance has a local suggestion.

Thanks,
Ryan

If (big if) your coach was half good, and you have an OK (if not great) technique when looking from the deck, I think the main problem is probably your breathing. Do you exhale fully under water before taking your next breath? How often do you breathe?

You wouldn't be THAT exhausted after 50 meters if it was only a question of "muscular endurance" and/or technique (they kind of develop together).
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Re: Learning to swim (Better) [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
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Diabolo wrote:
cbr shadow wrote:
I want to learn to swim better so I can participate in triathlon rather than just duathlon. I can swim about 50 meters and then have to rest because I'm completely exhausted. I'm in good shape (Strong cyclist, decent runner) but just can't get the swimming right. Usually when I try to swim I'll do 50 meters at a time and have to take a 1 minute break between "sets" of 50m.
I'm sure my form is pretty bad, and my breathing is very bad. I'm a bit stuck about where to get help though. I've been told to join a Master's class, but I've more recently read that you need to have a good base before even considering that (Which I clearly dont have).
I signed up for 1-on-1 lessons with a swim coach last year who said "Your form looks good" and just had me do drills for the whole class. In the end I didn't benefit from the lessons at all since she couldn't spot what I was doing incorrectly.
Are there classes available for someone in my position? I feel like if I take "adult swim lessons" I'll be with people who are afraid to let go of the wall, and if I take a Master's swim class I'll hold everyone back. Is there something in between those two?

I recently moved to Daly City, CA in case someone by chance has a local suggestion.

Thanks,
Ryan


If (big if) your coach was half good, and you have an OK (if not great) technique when looking from the deck, I think the main problem is probably your breathing. Do you exhale fully under water before taking your next breath? How often do you breathe?

You wouldn't be THAT exhausted after 50 meters if it was only a question of "muscular endurance" and/or technique (they kind of develop together).

Yes I do think my breathing may be the biggest issue. I think I'm only exhaling half of what is in my lungs before inhaling again.
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Re: Learning to swim (Better) [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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That in itself would explain why you're out of breath after 50 meters. Make sure you exhale fully underwater.
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Re: Learning to swim (Better) [treyedr] [ In reply to ]
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treyedr wrote:
You might want to consider using a pull buoy for a while. This will help you develop a better upper body suitable for swimming and can help with form issues. Any way you could upload a video of you swimming?


^^^^^This.

Use a pull buoy so that you can work on your stroke and body rotation w/o complicating it with the kick. Do about 1/2 your workout with the buoy, it will also help you swim longer and build your swim fitness.

Also, every race here in the Bay Area is wetsuit legal so you'll be racing with a wetsuit for leg flotation.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
Last edited by: Titanflexr: May 5, 16 23:49
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Re: Learning to swim (Better) [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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cbr shadow wrote:
Diabolo wrote:
cbr shadow wrote:
I want to learn to swim better so I can participate in triathlon rather than just duathlon. I can swim about 50 meters and then have to rest because I'm completely exhausted. I'm in good shape (Strong cyclist, decent runner) but just can't get the swimming right. Usually when I try to swim I'll do 50 meters at a time and have to take a 1 minute break between "sets" of 50m.
I'm sure my form is pretty bad, and my breathing is very bad. I'm a bit stuck about where to get help though. I've been told to join a Master's class, but I've more recently read that you need to have a good base before even considering that (Which I clearly dont have).
I signed up for 1-on-1 lessons with a swim coach last year who said "Your form looks good" and just had me do drills for the whole class. In the end I didn't benefit from the lessons at all since she couldn't spot what I was doing incorrectly.
Are there classes available for someone in my position? I feel like if I take "adult swim lessons" I'll be with people who are afraid to let go of the wall, and if I take a Master's swim class I'll hold everyone back. Is there something in between those two?

I recently moved to Daly City, CA in case someone by chance has a local suggestion.

Thanks,
Ryan


If (big if) your coach was half good, and you have an OK (if not great) technique when looking from the deck, I think the main problem is probably your breathing. Do you exhale fully under water before taking your next breath? How often do you breathe?

You wouldn't be THAT exhausted after 50 meters if it was only a question of "muscular endurance" and/or technique (they kind of develop together).


Yes I do think my breathing may be the biggest issue. I think I'm only exhaling half of what is in my lungs before inhaling again.

Your breathing frequency is at least as important, e.g., unless sprinting a 50 free, most swimmers breath every cycle of their arms, that is, on their preferred side every time that arm recovers. I breath every stroke cycle on my left side b/c that is the side "my body picked" years ago with no input from my conscious mind. I can certainly breath on my right side but it is not as natural as on my left. Breathing every cycle of your arms will help keep you well supplied with air. If you want to practice breathing on both sides, then swim one length breathing right down the pool, then come back breathing left. Breathing on one side is so embedded in swim culture that many top swimmers like Phelps and Lochte have it ingrained in their stroke, which is referred to as a "gallop stroke", and as i said before, top swimmers breath every stroke cycle unless sprinting the 50 free. So breath more often and you will prob feel better:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Learning to swim (Better) [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
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Diabolo wrote:
cbr shadow wrote:
I want to learn to swim better so I can participate in triathlon rather than just duathlon. I can swim about 50 meters and then have to rest because I'm completely exhausted. I'm in good shape (Strong cyclist, decent runner) but just can't get the swimming right. Usually when I try to swim I'll do 50 meters at a time and have to take a 1 minute break between "sets" of 50m.
I'm sure my form is pretty bad, and my breathing is very bad. I'm a bit stuck about where to get help though. I've been told to join a Master's class, but I've more recently read that you need to have a good base before even considering that (Which I clearly dont have).
I signed up for 1-on-1 lessons with a swim coach last year who said "Your form looks good" and just had me do drills for the whole class. In the end I didn't benefit from the lessons at all since she couldn't spot what I was doing incorrectly.
Are there classes available for someone in my position? I feel like if I take "adult swim lessons" I'll be with people who are afraid to let go of the wall, and if I take a Master's swim class I'll hold everyone back. Is there something in between those two?

I recently moved to Daly City, CA in case someone by chance has a local suggestion.

Thanks,
Ryan


If (big if) your coach was half good, and you have an OK (if not great) technique when looking from the deck, I think the main problem is probably your breathing. Do you exhale fully under water before taking your next breath? How often do you breathe?

You wouldn't be THAT exhausted after 50 meters if it was only a question of "muscular endurance" and/or technique (they kind of develop together).


I think it's more than a breathing issue.

While I totally agree that pretty much anyone should be able to go 200 meters without being winded at all (even 80 year olds!), I think his limiter isn't just a problem with breathing.

The inability for a new swimmer to survive longer than 50-200 meters/yards without being gassed is a sign that they're wasting huge amounts of energy to maintain horizontalish body position and to offset inefficient stroke/kick motions.

These swimmers have to start all over doing the basic float drills, and slowly introduce the stroke such that they're totally relaxed in the water and can go almost all day at this leisurely effort. Sure, they'll be going SUPER slow, like 3:00+/100, if not slower than that, but the point here isn't speed but efficiency.

Once they've got swimming distance without gasping for breath down, they can proceed down the muscular endurance training that I totally agree with SnappingT that is required to get even the rudimentary swim form required to swim 2:00/100.

But they should first learn correct body position and not use kicking energy to compensate for lack of water balance.
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Re: Learning to swim (Better) [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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I'm late to this thread, but I'll post my input anyway. I suck at swimming, but don't mind since I get to play catch up on the bike and run.

Nevertheless, the one thing that's helped me this year is my Vasa trainer. I'm not their sales person (I think that's leightheir and ericmulk *joke*).
When I started I would be on door 1 for two minutes and be gasping and near death at the end. That was January. Now it's May and I'm knocking out 1000 m in a set on door 3 and thrilled at the result.

Yes I know I need to mix it up at the pool as well, but for the moment I'm happy enough with my own personal progress to post about it here.

Rhenium
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Re: Learning to swim (Better) [Rhenium] [ In reply to ]
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Rhenium wrote:
I'm late to this thread, but I'll post my input anyway. I suck at swimming, but don't mind since I get to play catch up on the bike and run.
Nevertheless, the one thing that's helped me this year is my Vasa trainer. I'm not their sales person (I think that's leightheir and ericmulk *joke*).
When I started I would be on door 1 for two minutes and be gasping and near death at the end. That was January. Now it's May and I'm knocking out 1000 m in a set on door 3 and thrilled at the result.
Yes I know I need to mix it up at the pool as well, but for the moment I'm happy enough with my own personal progress to post about it here. Rhenium

Rhenium - Glad to hear the Vasa is working for you; TBH, I've never even used the Vasa but I fully believe lightheir's testimony that the Vasa got him down from about 1:55/100 yd to 1:25/100 yd repeats. It seems that the Vasa is a great training tool, espec for those new to swimming and not able to get the pool easily. As for me, i swam my first 25 at age 4 or 5 and have been at it ever since, plus i have a nice pool just one mile from my house, so i haven't felt any great need to buy a Vasa:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Learning to swim (Better) [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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cbr shadow wrote:
I want to learn to swim better so I can participate in triathlon rather than just duathlon. I can swim about 50 meters and then have to rest because I'm completely exhausted. I'm in good shape (Strong cyclist, decent runner) but just can't get the swimming right. Usually when I try to swim I'll do 50 meters at a time and have to take a 1 minute break between "sets" of 50m.
I'm sure my form is pretty bad, and my breathing is very bad. I'm a bit stuck about where to get help though. I've been told to join a Master's class, but I've more recently read that you need to have a good base before even considering that (Which I clearly dont have).
I signed up for 1-on-1 lessons with a swim coach last year who said "Your form looks good" and just had me do drills for the whole class. In the end I didn't benefit from the lessons at all since she couldn't spot what I was doing incorrectly.
Are there classes available for someone in my position? I feel like if I take "adult swim lessons" I'll be with people who are afraid to let go of the wall, and if I take a Master's swim class I'll hold everyone back. Is there something in between those two?

I recently moved to Daly City, CA in case someone by chance has a local suggestion.

Thanks,
Ryan

Lots of responses on here, I haven't read them all, but if your coach told you that "your form looks good", given what you describe above, then she's delusional.

However, on Master's swimming, there is a huge range of abilities. You'd most likely be in the slowest lane, but the general mantra of masters swimming is that participation is the most important thing. With our club, we allow prospective members to join us for a trial period at no cost / obligation. I'd imagine that other clubs do the same thing.

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