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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
I do zero interval swimming. I just go for an hour, 3 days a week. Again, if all these folks doing intervals is the only way to do train, why am I not dead last in the swim? :)

More great strawman arguments here. No one has said intervals is the only way to train. I think most would agree that it is by far the best way to get really fast in the pool. If you don't care about being really fast (ie reaching your potential) by all means, swim LSD hour long workouts and burn a bunch of calories.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
I do zero interval swimming. I just go for an hour, 3 days a week. Again, if all these folks doing intervals is the only way to do train, why am I not dead last in the swim? :)


Aren't you like 6'5"? The theoretical "speed limit" for most swimmers is one body length per second. I'd imagine the average height of a triathlete is about 5'10" so your natural "speed limit" is about 10% higher. Perhaps you're swimming below your potential.

Edit: not that it matters. You can't win a triathlon with a fast swim. You can only lose a triathlon with a slow swim. As long as you're coming out of the water close to the front, your time (anyone's time) is probably best spent on the bike/run.


Perhaps it is semantics, but I've won my AG in many sprint triathlons in which my winning time gap was less than the amount I beat second place in the swim alone. You could say that everyone else lost the triathlon with a slow swim.

I've definitely lost local sprint triathlons due to my slow swims. at sprint distance in my local triathlons I do okay in my age group but I know I have to hope I can chase down people on the bike and run. I just lose a bunch of time in the swim and at sprint distance, it's hard to make up that much time on the bike and run.

I think I'll spend more time on my swimming this offseason just because I'd like to see more improvement and I like swimming as it's less rough on my body compared to running.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
"The theoretical "speed limit" for most swimmers is one body length per second."

GP - Where did you hear or read this??? The Race Club??? This is new info to me.

Cheers,

Eric


I've seen it multiple places. Most prominently I recall hearing it from Alexander Popov's coach in a YouTube video. The notion is probably derived from this: http://www.boats.com/...length/#.WcALbtN97zI
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As a very general rule the maximum speed of any displacement hull--commonly called its hull speed--is governed by a simple formula: hull speed in knots equals 1.34 times the square root of the waterline length in feet (HS = 1.34 x √LWL). Thus, for example, if you have a 35-foot boat with a waterline length of 28 feet, its hull speed works out to a little over 7 knots (1.34 x √28 = 7.09).

My rudimentary understanding is that to go faster than this you have to outrun your bow wake which is kind of like breaking the sound barrier: it can be done but the power needed rises rapidly.

Interesting. I've done a fair amount of reading on swimming but have never run across this. Thanks for this info, I'll play around with the math later this evening.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Well, 100's don't need to be hard to the point that you lose motor control.

I make a point of trying to swim intervals with the same technique, turnover, etc that I will be racing at. That means that 100's are typically at 400-1500 race pace.


That's a good point. My vision of those 100's were "significantly faster than 1500m race pace" just like if I was running interval quarters. So maybe I'm too wrapped up into the idea of "swimming intervals need to be at VO2Max".

Subject change. I finally made it thru this whole goddamned thread. Jesus christ, Hotman owes me 1/2 a day of my life back. I can't believe I stuck it out. The first half dozen pages of the thread were useful and I kept expecting that usefulness to come back. But no, it was just the Hotman silliness page after page.

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
Last edited by: RangerGress: Sep 19, 17 9:29
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ In reply to ]
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Early in this thread there were numerous references to Gary Hall Sr, to include links to videos. I watched a video and GH was talking about keeping the elbow high. That is to day during the early stage of the pull the elbow should be relatively shallow in water. A line drawn thru both shoulders to the pulling elbow, again this is early in the pull should be relatively straight. This is definitely a more shallow elbow than what I'm trying to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRN4AAT8XaE

Then I went back to Swim Smooth and they show the elbow as clearly deeper then GH wants.

http://www.swimsmooth.com/catch_adv.html

How say y'all?

Hotman, your thoughts? <I was tempted to put some CAPS and lol into that joke, but I was wary of crossing the line between mildly amusing and cringing.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
RangerGress wrote:

I've been reading these. Interesting that they came from my own school. Can someone explain this one to me pls? http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/.../biomechs/millet.htm

It says that as folks start swimming faster "catch up" style disappears and most everyone transitions to an "overlap" style. But when I chased after the distinction between those two, I found that Google seem to perceive them as pretty much synonymous.


Catch-up has a pause between the end of one pull and starting the next. Overlap, the pull starts before the opposite arm is finished.

in here --> http://www.swimsmoothforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2690


"Might be the wrong terminology.
It's kinda referenced in the van Hazel video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HhNlysFDs
When I say overlap I mean when the "time between strokes (sec)" as seen in that video goes negative, you can see this when Jon switches to his ultimate form at about 2:30."

I read the Swimsmooth forum page and watched the video a couple times. Just to double-check that I understand....Catchup is "more overlap than overlap". In order to achieve it, you've got to extend the glide. So if you're getting a lot of "front quadrant" time, you've got one hand that is always forward of the head, but you're doing it w/o obvious time spend gliding, that's "Overlap".

I have it right?

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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140triguy wrote:
One November, I had him swim almost all of his yards with fins, because I knew the fins would help him gain some ankle ROM. It made a huge difference for him, going from struggling to make 100y @ 1:25, to making 10-12 @ 1:20 (without fins).

during a time of broken ribs, I swam with fins only, for about 2 months, even split between back swimming and front with snorkel. It made my backstroke kick way more effective, 3-5sec drop in a 100 when I started actually swimming again. Freestyle kick is still a feeble sort of six-beat affair in longer swims but did change my kick and improve 50yd time.. believe it did help my stiff old-man-runner ankles..
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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FWIW I've never heard of "overlap" timing but what you're talking about is often referred to as "rotary" timing (at least that's what I've heard it called).
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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I had to google it. It isn't something I pay a lot of attention to, other than trying not to slow down between strokes.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Well, 100's don't need to be hard to the point that you lose motor control.

I make a point of trying to swim intervals with the same technique, turnover, etc that I will be racing at. That means that 100's are typically at 400-1500 race pace.


That's a good point. My vision of those 100's were "significantly faster than 1500m race pace" just like if I was running interval quarters. So maybe I'm too wrapped up into the idea of "swimming intervals need to at VO2Max".
Ok, you guys converted me. This evening I worked in 10x100's, each at 1:35. I can see the charm in them. But it's not just a matter of short intervals and fitness. That's where you guys are kinda over-selling it. To convince hard-heads like me, tell them...."it's not about endless VO2max intervals. Sure, there's some of those, but it's also about getting "comfortable" at race pace."

This evening, in addition to the impact of the 100's on fitness, I could totally understand the need for me to learn to be smooth, efficient, and powerful at that pace. An idea that had kind of eluded me because I'd become obsessed with working on my problems at a slower pace. Because the intervals were short, being able to concentrate on technique wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. It was a big win. Next time you guys are in Savannah, GA, the beer's on me.

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Shoulder mobility in general. A lot of guys can't easily put their elbows behind the head, or extend the scapula.

While there is a lot of talk of EVF, it isn't necessary for a decent swim. Just don't lead the pull with your elbow, and that gets you most of the way there.


I'm still trying to picture where/how a mobile shoulder helps a lot for freestyle thought, that's my question, since if EVF doesn't necessarily require big shoulder mobility, what propulsive or drag-reducing factors through mobility help in freestyle?

I mean, most men <55 can easily streamline their arm against their ear in extension.

The main area I see shoulder flexibility helping a lot is the high-elbow recovery phase, but that component should pale in component to a strong EVF pull.

I agree with Jasoninhalifax about ROM for streamlining. But I also think that poor shoulder mobility has a big impact on proper timing of the stroke and ability to quickly catch and pull (i.e. EVF). If you have poor mobility in the shoulders, you won't be able to execute a good high elbow catch early enough, and will have to wait for your body to start rolling back the other way before you can master it. This results in more of a catch-up style. This is lack of shoulder mobility-induced catch-up style. The alternative if you don't want to do catch-up is to pull with a dropped elbow, unfortunately. And this is even slower. Those have been my observations anyway.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
Early in this thread there were numerous references to Gary Hall Sr, to include links to videos. I watched a video and GH was talking about keeping the elbow high. That is to day during the early stage of the pull the elbow should be relatively shallow in water. A line drawn thru both shoulders to the pulling elbow, again this is early in the pull should be relatively straight. This is definitely a more shallow elbow than what I'm trying to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRN4AAT8XaE
Then I went back to Swim Smooth and they show the elbow as clearly deeper then GH wants.
http://www.swimsmooth.com/catch_adv.html
How say y'all?
Hotman, your thoughts? <I was tempted to put some CAPS and lol into that joke, but I was wary of crossing the line between mildly amusing and cringing.

Unfortunately, our beloved Hotman has not logged into ST since Aug 2013 so we are unlikely to hear his latest theories anytime soon, unless he comes back suddenly. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
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terry laughlin himself can keep putting out that garbage slow swimming while the rest of the swimming world gets fast.

as usual, someone is trying to sell a gimmick to lazy rich triathletes that want to skip the work.

the only truth he spouts is a ridiculously verbose wall of text that really simply means, pace well.

"You can't win the race during the swim leg, but you can certainly lose it - or seriously compromise your chances for a satisfying outcome. Unless you are a near-elite, who practiced lots of "red-line" swimming in your youth, your best races will happen when you keep your HR relatively low during the swim and can recover it fully within 90 sec to 2 minutes of leaving the water."

"brevity is the soul of wit" LOL


I will admit- I bought into the TI Kool-Aid last year when I started triathlons. I have only been swimming for about 20 months but in all honesty, it helped me a lot- to a point. I spent a lot of time focusing on their drills and "feeling" the water.

After I could swim relatively decent (decent being a stretch) then came the hard work. Just with anything, you need to put the time and effort into the workout to become faster.

Maybe some people have the talent I lack. However, if I want to run a 5k in 20:00, I better be able to complete half-mile repeats under 3:00 and mile repeats around 6:00. For me, I have to train my body at that pace in order to hit that pace.

Again, for me, the same goes for swimming. If I want to average 1:40/100 on my next sprint, I should probably be hitting 1:30-1:35 in the pool or it's not going to happen. I can tell you for certain if all I do is swim 2:00/100- chances are my swim time will be right around 2:00/100.

Again, just my opinion.


This is 100% what I experienced, and after talking to other folks in the local triclub who learned to swim with TI at the same time I did, it's the NORM, not the exception. It's really "duh, common sense!" but Terry definitely oversells his TI approach.

I think he does this subconsciously - he's an accomplished swimmer with a lifetime of swimming experience, so his "go easy" taps into that. So it likely does work for him as it does for folks who swam a bunch in childhood and revisited it as an adult.

But for adult true newb learners like myself, it's not realistic at all. How are you possible supposed to magically swim 1:40/100m for 1500m when all you do in practice is do well-rested, technique-perfect sets at your uber-comfy pace of 2:10/100m with tons of rest between each 200m? I had repeated rude awakenings of swimming closer to 2:30 in OWS on race day because of the shock of having to swim while fatigued - something I hadn't done enough in practice due to Terry's advice.

Perhaps the only good thing, in my opinion, about the outlandish claim that you can swim fast with no hard work, is that it seduces newbs (like me) who otherwise wouldn't have touched triathlon with a 10-foot pole because of our fear of the swim leg. If I knew how hard I'd have to work on the swim just to get to MOP, I almost certainly never would have started triathlon at all! But I drank Terry's cool aid, and I recall being super-excited to find that "free speed" he was talking about.

2 years later, and I've yet to find any sort of free speed in swimming. Yes, technique is crucial, and I spent an entire year doing nothing but technique, but I wouldn't call that free speed, more like avoiding drowning (slower than 2:40/100m.)

I can tell you what definitely works for a beginner like me to get a lot faster, though. Swim 15,000k per week. For months. That DEFINITELY works, and is absolutely indisputable. Regardless of what minor technical flaws you still have.

LH - Know you write this 7 yrs ago but I had to laugh when i read this!!! I think this is why so few people swim at most of your typical gyms, b/c it is just too damn frigging hard to learn, and apparently especially as an adult. You are to be commended for sticking it out and improving greatly.

Cheers,

Eric


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Heh heh - thanks ericmulk - that's a good laugh from the past from myself!

I'm still far from being a good swimmer, but I'm routinely cracking the top 20% of the field now in pretty much every race I do (I actually won the swim in my small AG M40-45 in my last local tri - REALLY soft field, but I'll take it!) and 1:40 for 1500 is really easy for me now!

Ironically now that I'm at least a MOP+ triathlete swimmer, I'm starting to work on technique more again, hoping to crack open the door to faster speed, and I think it's working, although it is hard to distinguish between just swimming 'more.'
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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tigerpaws wrote:
DC Pattie wrote:


Watch the greatest 1500m swimmer ever (Grant Hacket) and count his stroke rate. Not much over 60 (if I'm counting correctly). Watching Hacket - long glide, perfect form, smooth strokes - reminds me very much of T1 style swimming. Of course Hacket was a tremendous athlete with a huge motor; however, from my view - holding true to many basic T1 concepts.


I guess I just don't see much of a comparison. Grant uses a very shallow and radical EVF catch while Terry enters the water closer to his head and drives straight to his pull through position almost alleviating said catch motion with a very deep arm position during the pull through. Terry has a lazy if almost non-existent 2 beat kick while Grant looks like a thunder thighs convention shot with a taser. Lastly, the pace these two guys swim at is about as similar as my 10K to one of the Brownlees.

But yea other than that I can see how one might confuse Grant Hackett as a TI swimmer.....


Tiger - I'm reading this vintage thread and saw your post; it seems like we haven't heard from you in over a year. What is up with that??? Are you still at least swimming and riding??? We miss your wise-ass commentary. :)

Cheers,

Eric


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Last edited by: ericmulk: Sep 20, 17 9:56
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I come from a high school and college swimming background. At Lake Placid this year I swam the course in 54min after getting kicked in the face 3 times by slow traffic on lap two.. had I had clear water I might have swam a 52 or so.. I wasn't tired coming out of the water either.

My training was mostly long steady swims.. 1000 repeats.. 2000 straight... 4000 straight... pretty simple stuff. Sometimes I'd do the whole set with medium sized paddles. I only did intervals once a week.. 10x100 up to 20x100.

I'm willing to bet if someone has the right technique then this kind of training would work unless you're looking to be at the pointy end of the race. I knew I had nothing to worry about in the swim.. my goal for most of my swim training was to conserve energy for my other workouts. I'm a weak runner and I usually run on swim days.

On another note.. this kind of training is pretty boring. I doubt most would find it very enjoyable.

So yeah... LSD running works for many.. same for swimming in some cases IMO.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Edit: not that it matters. You can't win a triathlon with a fast swim. You can only lose a triathlon with a slow swim. As long as you're coming out of the water close to the front, your time (anyone's time) is probably best spent on the bike/run.


Perhaps it is semantics, but I've won my AG in many sprint triathlons in which my winning time gap was less than the amount I beat second place in the swim alone. You could say that everyone else lost the triathlon with a slow swim.

yeah GreenPlease is right if we are talking about the pro level and but wrong if we are talking about amateurs.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JBcycl1st] [ In reply to ]
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At Lake Placid this year I swam the course in 54min after getting kicked in the face 3 times by slow traffic on lap two.. had I had clear water I might have swam a 52 or so..//

I was a little faster than you in my day, maybe about the same as an AG'er and I never got kicked lapping slower swimmers in 100's of races. What you need to do is to learn to sight better if you are going to be the guy setting pace. If possible, I liked to use a faster swimmer to plow the crowded waters, but often it would just be me. If you are running straight into the back of swimmers, it is your fault not theirs. Just like in a car, person in the rear is responsible for not casing crashes. There is your clear water and your 52, you're welcome... (-;
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [cantswim24] [ In reply to ]
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When you get to a speed where drag becomes an issue, it's more about "technique" at that point than finding more ways to increase power. But I can assure you that most triathletes will never see those speeds where that becomes an issue. In reality, swimming is never a decision between technique or training. It's both.

In my experience, triathletes are usually lacking in strength and conditioning in the water and technique. And it's because they don't swim enough. But at slower than 1:30/100, get in the water and swim consistently. Get your hands to enter in shoulder width apart, look down at the bottom of the pool with your head and neck in a neutral position and try to keep your body as long and flat on the water as possible. If you want to drop below 1:20/100, then you'll need to get with an experienced coach who can help with technique.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
To do TI FAST,the idea is to TURN your shoulders close to 90 degrees,THRUST your arm straight forward FORCEFULLY then"GLIDE",all in one smooth motion.The HARD THRUST does use effort just like the"SWING",but OVERALL Total Immersion is more effecient for a few reasons.#1The"THRUST"uses every muscle in the body,the"swing"uses mostly the arms.#2Because you are TURNING your shoulders your resistance though the water is WAY less so every time you"THRUST" you go further then when you"swing".Going further per"thrust"is what I call the"GLIDE".#3 The result of the"turnthrustglide" is you do less strokes in a given distance.I have observed when people are going slow with TI they TURN their shoulders ok but they do not"THRUST" hard enough so they have no"glide". SO back to my statement"If you are going slow with TI,turn more,THRUST HARDER,then glide easy."

So I've been focusing on new things in swimming lately, and I think hotman might have a point.

One of the takeaways from Gary Hall's videos recently is that good swimmers use coupling motions to create more force. One of these is the linkage between the recovering arm and pulling arm. My guess is that hotman started to feel the potential of that linkage.

I might propose Janet Evans as a good case study in the power and momentum that are possible from coupling the recovery with the pull.

I've also noticed that there are some interesting potential gains to not thinking about pulling hard (in the sense of a one rep max benchpress), but rather using the recovery arm to create better, faster timing of the pull.

Hotman was right all along. You heard it here first.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
At Lake Placid this year I swam the course in 54min after getting kicked in the face 3 times by slow traffic on lap two.. had I had clear water I might have swam a 52 or so..//

I was a little faster than you in my day, maybe about the same as an AG'er and I never got kicked lapping slower swimmers in 100's of races. What you need to do is to learn to sight better if you are going to be the guy setting pace. If possible, I liked to use a faster swimmer to plow the crowded waters, but often it would just be me. If you are running straight into the back of swimmers, it is your fault not theirs. Just like in a car, person in the rear is responsible for not casing crashes. There is your clear water and your 52, you're welcome... (-;

I definitely need to work on my sighting more and agree the person passing is responsible. In my opinion this year at Placid the later starting and slower swimmers were simply really congested around the 2nd turn buoy after turning back to the finish. I did end up sighting my way to a clean line but the mass of bodies piled up in that area was a maelstrom of limbs. Hence my 3 kicks. In any of my other races I've never had a problem.
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