Look all I'm saying is balancing bicycle wheels is important to high speed handling, rolling efficiency and above all SAFETEY! Again let me make it very clear, just because you don't feel the bike shaking under you when you are riding with unbalanced wheels, does not mean your're loosing a tremendous amount of watts because of it. Your idea that balance is Snake Oil and a farce, just because you don't feel the bike shaking under you at speed is nothing. Again, let me make it clear, just because you do not feel the aerodynamics working for you when you are riding your bike does not mean its saving you (the rider) a lot of watts. That I'm sure you're an expert at and totally agree because now that idea is now scientifically proven. But before aerodynamic on bikes was proven, people like you resisted just like you are resisting balance now.

But soon history will prove that wheel balance will save you more watts then current aerodynamic technology. History will also prove that if you combine Aerodynamic technology with Balance, the new evolution of the modern wheel will be born. By the way, isn't that how F-1 cars are made, aerodynamics and perfect balance?

I'll tell you what? When this is all set and done, and history proves you or me wrong... You owe me a steak & lobster dinner, or a Sushi dinner of my liking and if I'm wrong then I'll treat you to a dinner of your choice, the limit being $150 bucks.

So lets stop the arguing and let history prove either of us wrong.

Sincerely
Dan Sotelo
ala Mr. onZa

PS, people also told me Bar-Ends were a farce. Now 1.5 ~ 3 million are made a month, depending on demand, sure most is for low end bikes, but a lot is still alive for high end bikes too.

OK for the sake of argument. You claim to know those at Cervelo. One of the first things you see on my DSB website is a brand new Cervelo C5 shaking violently because the wheels straight out of the box are so unbalanced. Then after they are balanced with DSB the bike is spinning crazy fast at about 50 mph smooth and steady.

If Cervelo showed these two videos to consumers giving consumers the option to purchase either, one with the smooth balanced wheels for an additional $500, and the other with unbalanced wheels for $500 less, which one would do you think they would choose?

Its obvious you would clearly choose the violent shaking C5 and leave it that way because you know for a fact unbalanced wheels have no ill effect on performance and it will all go away when you sit on it and ride it.

Please I would love to see what explanation you would put on the shaking Cervelo C5 video saying "save your $500 bucks on that balance option, because????"

Dan

Hello Dark Speed,

At last I'm hearing from people who really want to know about bicycle wheel balance with inquiring minds and thoughts. Yes bicycle wheel balance is important. My team at DSB has just began to scratch the surface as to the importance of bicycle wheel balancing. Like I say to those who ride expensive late model high tech bikes, "do you feel the aerodynamics performance advantage when you ride?" Well the same goes for bicycle wheel balance, those non sayers claim balancing your bike wheels is a farce because they don't feel any shaking when they ride. They think if there is a slight wheel imbalance it all goes away when you sit on the bike.

The problem with their mind set is no one yet has developed a test method to prove that unbalanced vs balanced wheels is dramatically a big difference. But until there is scientific proof, they think (like aerodynamics in the early days), it is all a bunch of Hog Wash.

They also think the majority of High Speed Wobble is cause by bicycle geometry issues and other silly things. When in fact really out of balance wheels create so much oscillation energy that wheels literally want to shake them selves apart. Check out this video and fast forward to 1.2 min. I know it has fenders but look at the bottom of the wheels, you can also see them in slow motion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC-PuBDFNac


When we did our DSB testing we discovered that severely out of balance wheels at high speed will tend to literally wiggle and wobble its self to destruction, all because the off balance wheel can not shed those powerful oscillation forces away thru the frame, rider and tire fast enough that the wheel has no choice but to try to destroy its self.

All this can be avoided by simply balancing your wheels.

Dan

Sometimes people have difficulty recognizing they're digging a hole so, as a kindness, it's good to let them know. However, in this case your posts are indescribably delicious. Carry on.

If there really is a big difference in power ("a tremendous amount of watts"), then simple power meter testing on a track, or maybe even coast-down tests, should be sufficient for a preliminary characterization of the issue.

The cheaper option. If they cared about the imbalance, they would then balance it themselves.

I think I have found the real gem in this worthy thread
I think we finally have the proof we need to call the UCI and start an investigation.

During the winter my club runs Tues/Thurs fast group rides at night. We light ourselves up like christmas trees, and several of us use these wheel lights (attempted to insert photo of my front wheel below). The lights weigh 25grams and attach to the valve stem. We average low 40mph range downhill. This seems like a worst case and I've never noticed any difference.

I try not to ride at night but those might make me reconsider.

Thanks RChung,

Its time to rock the boat, enough with these expensive carbon wheels & tires that don't even have the most essential of technologies called rotational wheel balance.

I'll tell you this, after wheel balance system(s) are introduced even those who are rebuking wheel balance on this site, will not ever consider purchasing an other expensive wheel set with out it. Mark my words, just watch these guys suddenly become balance experts.

Its just a matter of time, a little birdy told me by mid 2019, a group from Holland is launching the fastest wheels in the world. I'm not good at keeping records but it would be nice to keep track of these guys and see what happens after wheel balance becomes the must have wheel technology. Ha ha ha ha..

Sincerely
Dan

You're just making it worse.
Are you capable of taking constructive criticism?

You claimed to have proof of what you're saying, but you forgot to provide it.
You claimed to have done testing but told us nothing about it.
You say everyone but you is blindly accepting traditional dogma but expect us to blindly accept your unsupported assertions. (incidentally - you've misjudged your audience if you think some of them blindly accept anything)
Your information is provided in hyperbole and assurances, no meaningful theoretical rationale or measured figures from empirical testing. Others have provided rationale and calculations to support their position, which is in complete contrast to yours, and despite telling us you're the expert you have utterly failed to even attempt a rebuttal. Instead you keep asking us to look at a video.
If you can't argue your case, best stop trying. If you can, then do. What you're doing now is just making you look foolish.

Case in point the quote above.
What's this got to do with anything? It's nonsense. A laughably vague suggestion of inside knowledge, which even if true is pretty irrelevant to the topic. Or if there's a link you haven't told us what it is. Foolish

"a little birdy" - Oh, I believe you now
"a group from Holland" - I know those guys
"launching the fastest wheels in the world" - According to who? Fastest under what conditions?

Your insistance on throwing patently ridiculous marketing style rubbish into the discussion makes it impossible to avoid one of two conclusions. Either you're completely insincere and just trying to push a product regardless of it's merit; or your judgement and understanding of the subject are such that we obviously can't take anything you say at face value.

So stop asking us to believe you unless you're going to give us a reason.

That's exactly the type of light I described in an earlier post...except the ones I have are considerably larger and heavier!

The cool thing about the rear one is that it had the option to display flames (flickering!) in the rear wheel emanating from behind the rim on the leading edge of the wheel. Once I saw that, I was sold :-)

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Photos and link needed please ... ;-)

WD

We know...you keep SAYING that...but with no data/calculations/physics to back it up. Just saying it doesn't make it so...




I think you meant to write "NOT losing"...instead of "loosing"(sic) in the statement above...anyway, can you please quantify the "tremendous amount of watts"? Test data or logical calculations would suffice. Wild guesses or speculation do not.




Aaah...but you see...we now have equipment and techniques to actually MEASURE aerodynamic AND rolling resistance differences, even by the home hobbyist. So, where's your data? I've got tons of data on field testing of aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance...and to a fairly precise level.

Besides, "feel", or human perception, is highly fallible. There are many cases of what feels fast is actually slow, and vice versa. This is why careful measurements of the actual effects is so important.




OK, that last statement made me laugh out loud...then again, I don't exactly expect you to know my previous "dabblings" :-)




That's a pretty bold statement. Not worth anything though without actual data.




Ummm yeah...because the physics and use case of an F1 car is DIRECTLY applicable to bicycles...right.




You need to define "set and done" and "history proves" before any bet can be made. Past experiences with similar situations tells me that without precise definitions of those, you'll continually move the goal posts and the bet will never be paid off.

Here's something I'll bet on now though, which ties into your claims of power savings above: Based on the simple calculations that have been presented so far, I'll bet that any power losses due to imbalance (of up to the 15g @ 40 mph you stated earlier) will never amount to the power difference of just changing the inner tubes from butyl to latex, and will most likely be an order of magnitude lower, if it is even measurable. I'll bet you a lobster dinner on THAT right now.

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

https://www.amazon.com/...FHAHYJHTKZ7ZFT9XWFFQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnV5xc-GG_M

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Thank you !

Perhaps this might help with part of the debate on bicycle wheel balancing.


I currently live in Japan and was just browsing for info on building 650c wheels when I came upon this guy's blog, it is all in Japanese, so do make use of Google translate to get the gest of it:


http://viwataro.hateblo.jp/entry/2014/02/04/000001


Quick summary of the entry, the dude has a recumbent trike (HPV Scorpion fs 26) and he wanted to use 23c tire, so he went from:


Original 26in -> Pre-built 650c -> Self-built 650c


Pre-built 650c = A-CLASS ALX320DX


Self-built 650c = Dura-ace hub, sapim aero spoke, Velocity Aerohead rim


The part that is of interest to this particular discussion would be part 7, 8 and 9 of his entry.


Part 7 explains the problem he was having:


http://viwataro.hateblo.jp/entry/2014/03/16/173204


Whereas before with the trike's original wheel, he was able to cruise 40km/h and top out 50km/h, but with the new wheel, he was only able to cruise 30km/h and cannot go over 40km/h at all no matter how hard he tries.


Part 8 describes the conclusion he reached after trial and elimination:


http://viwataro.hateblo.jp/entry/2014/03/17/224557


He balanced his wheel and found he needed to add 14g to the valve side to make the wheel balanced. HERE, he referenced Y's Road (a bicycle store chain in Japan, catering to the high end market) website, but I can no longer find the article he referenced, so I do not know how they calculated this, but the number he gave was, "for 700c wheels, at 60km/h, for every 1 gram of unbalance, you will experience 0.5w of powerloss."


Then he went on to calculate the effect of 14g unbalance will cause on his new wheel traveling at speed. Which worked out to 533g for 40km/h and 834g for 50km/h.


Part 9 gave the result:


http://viwataro.hateblo.jp/entry/2014/03/21/182507


He was once again able to reach his previous cruising and top speed after balancing the wheel. Part of his conclusion, from his trials and numbers he crunched, that the wheels might vibrate from the force caused by the unbalanced weight at high speed, which will cause the bicycle to become unstable and dangerous. If the unbalance exceeds 5g, he recommends balancing the wheel.


DISCLAIMER: I found this thread because I was curious about his result and Googled. I do not have any association with anybody concerning this topic nor do I stand to profit in any way from this information. I am not an engineering mechanics major, so I cannot verify if his calculations and numbers are correct.


Even if all his calculations and numbers are WRONG, the problem he encounter and the solution he ended up with is hard to ignore. Anyway, I could not find much authoritative information on this topic, so I am not any more informed after this than I was before.... The idea does seem to have merit for me, but same as you guys, I also wanted to understand the science behind it as well and not just some vague explanation....


Cheers.