This was answered before but one of the polls said a lot of people on here percentagewise were interested in learning more about it.

I’m pretty sure they’re sponsoring the site too but I think people are just generally interested in it.

Sure seems like it. I like Zwift and use it to race (prefer TrainerRoad for my quality work), but it seems like since Jordan went to work for them this has all started so I guess I'm not surprised here.

The Zwift Slowtwitch rides are a pretty cool thing I think.

Jordan.

In my opinion it is for two reasons. There is some sort of partnership/sponsorship + triathletes are really interested in Zwift. Its the biggest thing to happen to triathlon since gps watches.

More than likely they probably use it a lot. Zwift is set up in a way that it behooves you not to use it casually (If you care about racing, levels, etc.) so even if someone is using another app like Trainerroad they're probably Zwifting in the background. Since you can get a Slowtwitch kit there I'm sure there is some intermingling between the two companies.

Dan has always had a clear and professed interest in technologies which represent an clear advance in the world of endurance sports. I would argue that one of ST's main reasons for being is to provide a platform for the advancement of such technologies. Zwift does represent such an advancement because it does everything that other programs like TR do only in a slicker, sexier and more engaging package that will appeal to a broader audience.

I don't know if Zwift and ST have a financial arrangement but in the past similar question have been raised with respect to ST and Cervelo, ST and Flo and ST and HED. The answer has been yes, the companies are partners, but their partnership is not what has driven Dan's coverage. I am sure Dan covered the ST policy on product reviews and front page articles a year or so ago which outlines where he draws the lines.

As a side note there seems to be this concept that TR is for structured workouts and Zwift is for entertainment but that just isn't true. Zwift can handle any workout that TR can handle.

Zwift has a workout mode like Trainer Road

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

+ 9 million. We saw the same thing with Diamondback when he switched rides.

Cause Zwift is popular, and Trainerroad isn't.

Observant.....and Dimond, and a number of others through the years as sponsorship changed.

yes, there is. trainerroad also. sufferfest also. cycleops. and others!

let me go further. do you see that blue bar just above? see right in the middle where it says INDOOR? that didn't use to be there 3 months ago. i made an affirmative decision to reorganize the site around an acknowledgement that there are 2 parts of the cycling world growing like wildfire: indoor, and gravel (or allroad, or whatever your preferred word).

accordingly, you'll see a lot of articles, especially over the winter, on indoor. we just published on the latest iteration of the kickr. just before that woodway. no financial arrangement with either (but i'm open to it!).

there are 1,400 weekly events on zwift. when i go there i routinely see 4,000 or 5,000 people on zwift at that moment. i spend about 3hr a week on zwift. if i'm average, that means there are about 200,000 people on that platform. are there that many? i don't know. but i've got a speed and cadence sensor arriving by UPS today, which i'm taking down with a bike and trainer i'm not using to an old high school running buddy of mine, to set him up on zwift, which is his request of me. and he's not a cyclist!

so, indoor is a big deal. if you think zwift cycling is big, just wait for zwift running to catch hold. i've thought about this a lot, and i've come to the conclusion that this won't diminish outdoor riding. quite the opposite. indoor is my running buddy friend's gateway drug to outdoor. (but, outdoor with a twist: allroad.)

so, yeah, i'm all in. and, yes, instead of charging you $15/mo. to read i'm asking the indoor companies (as i will ask the allroad companies) to fund your no-charge reading. further, i'm back in the race production business, and you'll see our first two allroad triathlons this year.

If you want to know about our financial arrangements, they're at the bottom of this page. you can always go there, bottom of every page, any page, and see who our partners are.

and finally, i have yet another article to write about zwift within the next day, because of something they're doing i'm not at liberty to disclose. and probably another yet, because of future slowtwitch rides and workouts we'll announce on the zwift platform. and you'll see zwift invade this forum, as i announce (maybe even today, thanks for reminding me) that we need more ride leaders for our existing rides and new rides. and i have a "widget" i'm building to deploy on this very forum that'll remind you when our next group rides and runs are occurring (whether zwift cycling or on some other platform.

and this will be followed by more articles on trainerroad, and the sufferfest, and the trainers and equipment aboard which you perform your indoor rides. it's... just... not... going... to... stop!

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I've been holding out but may need to try Zwift soon.

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Pete Githens
Reading, PA

Dan,

I am curious. Why do you think that indoor running will catch on like cycling has? Can it truly catch on without a device that is controlled by Zwift? That is primarily the reason why I don't Zwift run. Really, it is just me running on an animated road and doesn't really give me anything meaningful. I would rather watch netflix. Zwift cycling with my power meter is a different story though. Seems to me the running aspect has a LONG way to go before it is really meaningful.
Thoughts?

Interesting thread.

I use both. Zwifted first then switched to Trainerroad after listening to the Podcast.
Zwift workout mode is one thing but the plans and structure aren’t there in any level of detail (Although I understand that’s about to change).

I still run Zwift in the background though- on the TT bike, I know when all my intervals will end by where I am on the course and I get a tangible Strava entry out of it ;)

Zwift is a place- a place to train, a place to race, a place to cruise with buddies, a place to chase KOM’s and even a place to meet people.
My real life race team is the TFC team from Zwift (hosts of The Friday Criterium).

I can even safely say I’d have never raced a real Crit without Zwift and I did over 30 last year.

It’s already inextricably linked with cycling and training so Kudos to Dan for embracing the new opportunities it brings.

Really? Why do you say that? I use TR and I don't use Zwift. Same for my brother.

Also, based on the very active TrainerRoad.com thread, I suspect there's an active TR user community.

Because group riding on TR would be difficult?

I held off for years myself, but I got a turbo trainer and its really fun. I was one of those guys that snickered at the whole concept of it, but the race mode motivates me like nothing else. The workouts are meh, so is general riding, but the races are fun. The great thing about them is they set conditions to maximize an all out effort over an hour, something that's close to impossible on the road in some parts of the world.

My wife and I too held off on Zwift until November 2017. We were pretty old school. Then we decided to go with a Cyclops Hammer direct drive trainer and step into what a many good riders and pros use. What a huge difference in the quality of the workout using the Hammer with Zwift. You can ride just about any type of ride you feel like or download a custom workout. My wife is a triathlete / duathlete and using the custom workouts has been great. She can ride them at 5:00 AM, work and then get in the PM swim. Zwift has made the training schedule work for us. When its really cold, or raining cats and dogs, we can still get the kind of effort we need with the Hammer in combination with Zwift. I have to say that using Zwift has definitely improved our outdoor riding. Our average speed and interval speeds have increased, as well as, riding over grades. Zwift has been the closest we have come to actually riding outdoors, minus wind. We never thought we would go the Zwift route, but certainly glad we did. Try it!

Of course there is a financial interest in advertising/promoting Zwift, Diamondback, Powertap .... Nothing wrong with doing so. You just have to take it for what it is; targeted advertising to an interested group of people.

If only there was a Zwift discount code through Slowtwitch.....

Gravel/adventure and indoor biking growing. Might I suggest adding more about fat biking too? Can do it on beach or snow or trails.

i think you're missing the bigger message. here are some recent data points, if you want to call them that, popping up recently here on slowtwitch:

1. andy coggan's thread on the fact that it doesn't matter as much what workout schema you follow, just that you follow one;

2. my own ranking of the 8 important elements to athletic success, of which the least important is the particular training philosophy you follow, and that, aside from your own work ethic, the most important is your regular access to training partners.

3. my own nauseatingly repetitive insistence on the importance of the enclave. the cohort of training partners you wake up knowing is there, ready to ride, ready to swim. the masters swim team. the group rides and runs.

what truly matters is not the detail. it's the enclave. when i ride at 4pm this afternoon with 90 or so slowtwitchers, they are my enclave. they are my training partners. i would perhaps not do that ride - or any ride - today were it not for the fact that there they are, they expect me, and not because it's me, but because we all expect each other. it'll be that same way in zwift running, or any platform that allows for the enclave.

i would also mention that the enclave can be larger yet because a group run or ride can be driven by common effort rather than common talent. 90 people can ride in the same pack because they're all riding at 70 percent (let us say) of their FTP, rather than all riding at 240 watts.

now, about the treadmill. yes, it is not controlled by zwift. and yet 2 years ago i saw a device by wahoo that hacked a treadmill, making that possible. but even then, it would only be a "smart" treadmill you could hack. i wonder how many zwifters are riding dumb trainers? because that's what zwift running is (without that hijack of the treadmill's motor). you're running with a footpod, and that footpod absolutely DOES reflect on the screen. you WILL either fall behind or surge ahead of REAL runners in your enclave, in your group run, whose avatars are on the screen.

the power is not in the tech. the power is in the enclave. the part of zwift that zwift thinks is REALLY important really ISN'T that important to ME. it's not the quality of the graphics. it's that every one of those cyclists - whether a high quality graphic representation or a stick figure - represents a REAL person doing a REAL thing. zwift is digital, virtual tech, but what it enables is a very human thing.

that's why zwift running is going to be big.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thanks for taking the time to write that. As a "tech guy" in my job, I always tend to look at what I am interacting with instead of the human aspect.

Zwift actually got started on Slowtwitch. But unlike some other folks who got their start on ST and then turned their back on Slowtwitch or "shat on it" Zwift has actually stayed connected.

I for one love it.

And here is the story:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._realized__5547.html

TR is obviously still very popular and I would argue a much more mature and stable product currently. I think Zwift has certainly improved and continues to. They have way more workouts than they used to and now plenty of events to participate in. I've had a couple cases where their servers got overloaded but I'm not sure that's a frequent thing. I dropped zwift though. It's fine. It's just not something that has drawn me in that much. I think TR is awesome and their plans are very well done. But I actually ended up buying PerfPro Studio. No subscription and it has all the workouts I need. I'm rarely on the trainer more than an hour so mentally I can stay engaged for an hour and don't need the immersive experience of Zwift.

there are two themes at play that underpin everything that is growing in cycling:

1. the power of the enclave. the power that comes from people when you get them together. 20 people in a group is worth way more than 1 x 20.

2. freedom. the so-called gravel bike, the fat bike, the plus bike, and even (cringe) the ebike, give you freedom to roam parts of the earth that were previously closed to you. i still remember, very vividly, 54 years ago, the 7 year old me "borrowed" a friend's bike from outside his front door, very early morning, before anyone was up, and i went on my first bike ride. a schwinn stingray. i didn't own a bike. i couldn't ride a bike. my father tried to teach me. i couldn't get the hang of it. but, suddenly, there i was. riding. it was one of the great thrills of my life. that ride, that might have taken all of 3 minutes. obviously i've still not fully "recovered" from that day.

that ride will thrilling because it opened up a world of possibilities to me. the parts of this industry that are not growing are those that try to make it more expensive to do the same thing. the parts that are growing are the parts that allow you to do something new. this isn't an indictment on making better tech to perform a task. next year the gravel bike will incrementally change but won't grant you any more freedom. we'll all buy that tech because we're still very stoked with gravel riding. but the big leap in tech today is in things that grant new freedoms. fat biking included.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i am the least tech savvy guy on slowtwitch. the last video game i played was pac man. zwift's tech, per se, means nothing to me as tech, per se.

here's the thing about guys like me, and nobody knows this except guys like me: guys in their 60s (and i don't imagine it's going to be any different if, god willing, i become a man in my 70s, 80s, 90s). we are, in our brains, no different than we were as teenagers. the same things motivate us. my first endurance sport enclave was my high school cross country team, as a 13 year old freshman. here it is, a half-century later, and zwift, trainerroad, the sufferfest, they all zap that same place on my brain stem.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

in all our polling TR has the largest slowtwitcher following of any online training/racing/riding platform.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Monday was a snow day here and thus no school. So I had both boys all day again (my wife was gone Wednesday through Sunday) and I thus rode the Wahoo Kickr connected to Zwift for "a while" and one of the 6-year old twins joined me to check it out. Eventually the other came too. But Max stayed the full 1:40 next to me and was fully entertained by all the things he saw. Plus he enjoyed bringing me gels, turning on the fan and getting to give "Ride Ons" to folks. Both of them especially love the underwater clear tunnel, and that it rains and snows at times. :-)

That makes sense and likely why it doesn't appeal to me per se. I use workouts as a way to get away from people in general. It's my recharge time, although the "group workout" electronically would still allow me to do this so perhaps it is worth looking at again. Now if only Slowtwitch had a discount code of some sort.... :)

I'll be 59 in a couple of weeks. Like you my first endurance sports enclave was the HS XC team, although my friends and I explored our hood on bikes before that. I'm very excited about traveling south at the beginning of next month to ride bikes and run in the mountains of N. Georgia for a week with my training/racing buddies of 20+ years. I will race more than a dozen times outside this year. I, however, have zero desire to Zwift. OTOH, I really enjoy being part of the Slowtwitch online discussion enclave so I guess I need to try to understand. ;)

some of the very best riding i ever did was in north georgia (and west NC). i flew there with my bike, like 25 years ago or so, february, rained on my every day. i rode from town to town, not knowing where i would stay (but always finding a place). helen. franklin. hiawasse. brevard. murphy. i could live there quite easily.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I posted about this at the start of the year and never received a response, so I appreciate the clarity put forth in this thread.

I fully recognise that sponsors are required to run the site, but I stand by my point that, as a reader, it's nice to know when you're being sold-to and it doesn't always appear clear to me where that line is on Slowtwitch.

I'm with you Mark. Having been through college on a swimming scholarship and now 34 (35?) years in tri, I'm starting to realize the sport has left this old fart behind. I have trained with the weekday guys who's egos needed the weekly win in training "races" as they sacrificed the real races and decided long ago (with some GREAT coaching) to stay to my plan. It allowed for more success than this minimally talented guy deserved to achieve. The last few years seem to have shown me that our current day sport has become reliant on interactive (video type) gaming for fitness and bragging rights instead of pushing oneself to new levels in the solitude of your own suffering. Ego over solo effort and improvement. I love Trainer Road and have used it from their start, but to me that coincides with my year long plans instead of doing the workout the group inspires and chases for the weekly win. I'm fine with others that prefer that, and know the days of athletes like me are long gone. Some say for the better and that's fine, but I shed a tear..... I should at least be happy that people at least are not racing from their couch.

Yep, we stay in Helen. Don't know about living there but it is a fantastic place to train in the spring before most of the tourists arrive.

Gary, I'm with you, fellow old fart. Several of the strongest athletes I'll be training with in Georgia in a few weeks are Zwift enthusiasts, so I'll be witnessing the effectiveness of that tool soon. I'm guessing they'll enjoy riding up real hills with real people more than they have enjoyed Zwifting most of the winter, and I'll enjoy riding up much bigger hills with other people in warmer weather (I hope) than I have enjoyed riding outside during this Ohio winter. If they don't enjoy riding outside more than they enjoy Zwifting, then we are all in trouble...

the line is, actually, a literal line. scroll down. it's right there. it's there for a purpose. you can always go there if you have any question about who financially supports your ability to read here. they are below that line.

as to your earlier thread, as i noted a few posts up we started a new section on slowtwitch about 3 months ago: INDOOR. you posted a screenshot of that section of slowtwitch. we kicked it off with trainer reviews, and with a 6-part series on how to zwift (because zwift is not a simple, straightforward platform). these were all written within a few days of each other.

if you look there today, 2 of the most recent 6 articles are about zwift: the article i wrote yesterday, and the announcement of the 2nd weekly slowtwitch zwift group event. the others are about wahoo, woodway, velotron, and the sufferfest, and 3 of those 4 are not slowtwitch partners.

i respect anyone's decision to look elsewhere for his information, if you find us dishonest content deliverers. just, here's a thought experiment. I'm writing about 6 products in my current series on tri bikes in the $2,500 to $3,000 range. of the 3 i've written about so far, can you pick the one that is a slowtwitch partner? based on the reviews?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'm with you as well... I prefer my PerfPro workout when I do train/ride inside.. not into Zwift and its platform.

inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened - Terry Pratchett, in Moving Pictures

I prefer the version that goes, inside every old man is a boy wondering what the hell just happened.

ran in HS but my first enclave was university x-c, then a sequence of running clubs with the long Sunday run as motivation, reward, and socialization.
For a few years it was masters swim sessions. For the last several years, nothing.. tech-mediated subscription services aren't very appealing to my dinosaur/lizard brain unfortunately..

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"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

me too. until i did it. here's what i was missing: i (like you) couldn't imagine my lizard brain getting tickled by anything new fangled. imagine a way to - and this is certainly a bad example - take a digital LSD trip. imagine all the good parts of that trip, and none of the bad parts. and none of the ill- or after-effects. now, it wouldn't be as good as some of the good parts of an actual trip. but let's say all the same brain stem ahhhhhs that you get from a tab of acid you get from a tab of... whatever.

so, my point here, is that i, also, have a lizard brain. whether zwift, TR, SF, or whatever, if i can mix neurological metaphors, these platforms hit my lizard brain g spot.

and, i've never actually taken LSD. but you get my point ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

In my racing circle, almost nobody uses TR and nobody talks or seems interested in it. A bunch of them are on Zwift, or just joined it or are interested in it.

Zwift isn't perfect (cough- cheating in races) but it really resonates with many people.

tech-mediated subscription services aren't very appealing to my dinosaur/lizard brain unfortunately..

Agree with you Doug, but I say fortunately. We old guys had plenty of internal motivation and love the "being there" in a real scene. I love the battle of real sport and training to stay with what I have enjoyed....pushing myself. I usually do all my hard training solo, as it's what I need, not someone else dictating what that day brings. I have training plan and am usually quite anal about staying the course. But, I'm so old school....no headphones, no gas at the dentist...I like reality too much. I think they should randomly program in flats and crashes to Zwift! ;-)

whoa, cowboy. me too! i'm with you, bro! that's why i moved to where i moved to. and you will pry my pedals off my cold dead feet. er... shoes. whatever. and i mean the pedals on my ride-outdoors bike.

but, look, your buds are not always going to be there. don't be angry. don't be sad. don't sit crying over good rides you've had. there's a trainer right next to you. and it's just waiting for something to do.

so, if you can't ride with the ones you love...

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I’ve been on zwift since it was in Beta and boy has it grown. You would maybe have 50-100 riders on the map when it first started, now you can’t find clear air lol.
The big thing I’ve noticed is how many friends on my strava feed have started using it. It started with about two of us who have been using it pretty much since it started. Then you get the questions from others about it, they end up on it and loving it. One big thing is people training before or after work when it’s dark and you can do perfect intervals on the platform while having something to look at.

My last 5 weeks training has been exclusively indoors, only outdoor ride was 20k tt, i write down my trainer road workout and then ride on zwift so i have something to look at and a simulation of what kind of speed i can expect in a race.

Haha....saw him in concert in the old days tear gas and all.... Oh, I surely use my trainer between 6 and 8 hours per week. Just not that platform as this old school guy loves the suffering alone with little extra outside stimulation needed. Trainer Road is awesome for me as it models perfectly the workout I actually need, not what others dictate. Traveling twice the speed of sound, it's easy to get burned. Thats said, just keep moving.

you said it, bra. i am older now. i have more than what i wanted. but i wish that i had started long before i did.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Time we have wasted on the way
So much water moving underneath the bridge

Carry on....

For how much longer?

I used TR and really liked it. I was somewhat early beta on Zwift, maybe the second round of beta invites, and I haven't touched TR since. It's not that I don't like TR but at the end of the day I was just following a line. Very effective for a workout but that's all it's good for. There's no upside beyond a workout. That's great for those that just care about that and there's nothing wrong with that. I just don't think it's long for this world. I can't define what long is at the moment. Could be a year or it could be five years. IMO, Zwift or something like it is here for good. Something like TR isn't.

TR has an amazing library of workouts. Better than Zwift in that regard. But Zwift is better than TR in every other way imaginable. Graphics, social scene, races, competition, pro cycling/triathlon involvement, cultural buzz, etc... it's not even a point of debate. TR isn't even a blip on any of those radars. I create and use my own workouts so the library of workouts isn't a concern to me. Zwift's workout creator is far easier to use and navigate. YMMV.

I think there's been quite the shift to more indoor cycling over the last decade. Part new hardware tech like smart trainers, part new software tech like Zwift and TR, and part increasing apprehension to riding outdoors. It's obvious to me that following a line on a bar graph isn't the future when it comes to indoor cycling's increased footprint. I get something like Zwift with the video game graphics and social aspects isn't everyone's cup of tea but that's an increasingly minority viewpoint and opinion.

I just don't know what TR can do to stay competitive in this market. Their product basically hasn't changed much from day one, from a user's perspective at least, while Zwift has made quantum leaps since it was introduced.

I'm not bashing TR as the product is excellent for what it is.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

but do you have a CSN lyric to share?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

TR has an amazing library of workouts. Better than Zwift in that regard. But Zwift is better than TR in every other way imaginable. Graphics, social scene, races, competition, pro cycling/triathlon involvement, cultural buzz, etc...
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Am I the only one who reads this and thinks that TR> Zwift simply for the lack of all the other noise? Social scene? Cultural buzz? We're triathletes for crying out loud.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

I've been heard singing even wimpier acoustic music while riding my bike outside: Sunshine on my shoulders makes me happy...sunshine almost always gets me high
or
You fill up my senses, like a night in the forest, like the mountains in springtime, like a run in the rain

RIP, Johnny D

does this count???

"old man take a look at my life, I'm a lot like you were."

(now I'm the old man - and, I hope no one would be like me)

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

If you haven’t tried Zwift, you don’t know what you are missing

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

CSNY?

I agree, I don't understand how people are able to write text to each other while riding-cant be riding very hard?

Part of me agrees with that sentiment as I'm a loner as far as training is concerned but the things I mentioned move the needle and lead to longevity and success. I've never seen any social media posts about TR. There's a shit ton of stuff about Zwift every day.

There's basically one long standing post about TR on ST. There's a new post about Zwift every day. Nobody is plastering their social media accounts with mentions of TR like they do with Zwift. Heck, I just rode with Jan Frodeno on Zwift about an hour ago. Granted, I rode with him for about 10 seconds before he left me in his dust but that's not something you can do on TR. Some will say who gives a shit but it creates a buzz about the product that no other competing product can match. There are pro cyclists or triathletes on Zwift everytime I'm on there.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

TR is plenty popular but the UI/UX is just plain fucking lazy for a paid app in 2018. Zwift made me actually want to train indoors. TR made it a chore that I had to do in order to get faster quick.

Also - I know it is silly - but I like having miles attached to my indoor workouts. I know that they are very "directional" (read meaningless) - but when I do 3x Zwift+long ride outdoors per week in non-rainy weeks, it is nice to have a total mileage per week number.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

To be honest the UI for both are very poor for something in 2018 AND a paid subscription. Zwift is very early 2000's standard-there is a big opening for a competitor to gazump them sort of like the iphone did to Nokia.

Funny thing is that i started with zwift beta and moved to TR last year. Sure, the pretty graphics are cool and all, but that doesn't make me faster whereas trainerroad's workouts did. Now i have a coach, so i write my workouts down on a piece of paper that i have next to my trainer to follow. I honestly find it much more motivating to watch bike races or draft legal races than some digital guy on the screen. Even if i didn't have a coach, if i had to pick between the two right now, trainerroad would win easily.

Why i switched to zwift. Another key feature is on/off erg mode. Doing group workouts / rides / races is an added bonus, which i am enjoying far more than I imagined originally.

The training plans are the most important IMO. TR is absolutely awesome in this respect.

I did, however, find myself creating a Zwift workout based on a TR workout. Just wanted to get some XP and climbing meters in Zwift. Also an 1 hour workout i can manage easily on TR, but anything longer is getting a bit boring. I also had TR controlling my erg and then connect to Zwift... I want those tron wheels.

I hope TR will pair up with Zwift. If Zwift will have the same quality workouts available... then I don't see any need to keep my TR subscription. And I believe I won't be the only one. (which I somehow find a shame because I absolutely love TR and what it did for my performance).

I agree - for serious, hard training i like the clean simplicity of TR, with banging tunes on my headphones. Sometimes i like Zwift for just tooling around or racing (which is great fun), and i often do Sufferfests for the glorious suffering but TR made me a faster cyclist for sure. (4.4W/Kg)

I do think this is an important piece of the puzzle that often gets missed out on in the "maximal training indoors" thing. However, for a whole lot of us, it is indoor season from the end of CX season until April or so. To that end, as much as I would love to say "everybody ride rollers," the Zwift/TR/CompuTrainer crowd does help keep people motivated and ready to ride come the start of outdoor season.

That said, those first couple of rides in April/May are a bit of a doozy as everybody's lost some of their pack riding skills and the conditions aren't exactly ideal.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

I think that the Zwift graphics are on the lower end because they have to make them run across a very wide variety of hardware. They can't require the latest GPU videocard - it'd kill their subscription based.

However the 3d rendering engine could be cleaned up - especially the collisions between the cyclist and a more realistic ability to pass.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

" I think that the Zwift graphics are on the lower end because they have to make them run across a very wide variety of hardware. They can't require the latest GPU videocard - it'd kill their subscription based. "

The graphics could be scaled to the user's hardware.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

It sort of depends... it is a design decision to determine how much processing is happening client side. Zwift seems to be heavily server side - which means that they need to be mindful of the network throughput capability.

In any case, they don't need CS2 level graphics - just some clean up of the rendering engine and they gotta make up their damn mind about requiring power meters for racing.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

The GMAN wrote:

It's not that I don't like TR but at the end of the day I was just following a line. Very effective for a workout but that's all it's good for. There's no upside beyond a workout....I create and use my own workouts so the library of workouts isn't a concern to me. Zwift's workout creator is far easier to use and navigate.

Honest question as I haven't tried Zwift yet. I use structured workouts on TR, and thus "follow a line" while in front of a TV. When you create a workout on Zwift and then do that workout, do you not end up following a line? Or is your custom workout put to some other graphic that makes it more interesting? What social interaction is there when you're doing your own custom workout on Zwift?


I get the Zwift group ride and race concept. Just curious how custom private workouts fit into that.

Zwift workout mode has a column on the left side that shows you your workout. You get a gold star if you complete each one. It has a timer countdown, shows you wattage, heart rate, cadence, etc. just like Trainer Road does, allows you to ride with people are who free-riding. Your character will have a map in front of them showing people that you are in workout mode. It can do everything Trainer Road does.

Social interaction? People can chat with you, talk on the Zwift mobile app, give you thumbs up for crushing intervals, etc. There is a a ton of features on there.

It looks like this

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Y stands on his own.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You can create workouts in Zwift and watch races on a different screen.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Using the Zwift mobile app and holding the phone while in the aerobars, it's really easy to talk to people. I've done it while doing intervals.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Me to. For the past 3 winters I have subscribed to Zwift thinking I would use it but I am up to only 10 total rides. I just prefer watching real bike races over watching computer avatars (I do like the Zwift racing/group rides and should do more of them).

TR gives structure to my training because I religiously follow their plans. The value I get from them is not an interface but a calendar with specific workouts scheduled by day for months on end. If you don't do a plan, you can't truly "get" what is great about Trainer Road. Trainer Road is not an interface but a cheap alternative to hiring a living breathing coach. The value of TR is the plan and the schedule surrounded by an interface that helps you execute the plan. And, now, the big time accountability of your graph, with targets and how you actually did versus the targets, automatically posted on Strava for all to see. I have a love/hate relationship with that new feature ;-)

Zwift has plans too. Not as many workouts as Trainer Road, but it's growing.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

"Y Stands on his own"- Slowman


Yeah- he's sponsored by nobody ;)

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"There are two ways to slide easily through life- to believe everything and to doubt everything- both ways save us from thinking "- Korzbyski

//they gotta make up their damn mind about requiring power meters for racing.//

+1 for sure. Or at least allow race organizers to set requirements - power meter or smart trainer, HR monitor. Similar to power ups allowed or not, TT bike or not. I know its all fun and games but seeing zPower/no HR podium finishers is a bridge too far.

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tinman

Their plans aren't a match for the TR plans. But if they get that right....

Thanks, very useful. I guess it all comes down to what value an individual gives to the graphics and social interaction. Personally, I'd never care to chat or message during a workout.

As for the graphics, I think that part is fairly cool. But if I'm doing a workout in erg mode, in my 39x25 to keep the Kickr quiet, I get to see other free riders blow past me on the screen b/c I'm estimated to be going 12mph despite doing 300w?

Yes but they are free riding or doing a workout of their own. The map in front of you to show you are doing a workout looks like this

Why does it matter if people are flying by you? You can end the workout and chase them if you want. Zwift is made up of people doing workouts, free riding, and running. It's really cool to see teams riding together in a pack or doing a group workout together.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

this is because too many people think gravel means gravel. i acknowledge the assumption that gravel bikes must be made with gravel roads in mind. but that's really not the case. a lot of folks, like gerard vroomen, think AllRoad is the better name.

the bike is an SUV. it's designed as a go-anywhere, do-anything bike, but built around a road motif so that it still goes fast on the road. just like an SUV.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I still think even if Zwift matches TrainerRoad's training plan offerings, TR has some differentiating features that will keep it alive and doing well. It is a simpler, cleaner, less "videogamy" interface, it is quicker to get going and more stable on lower end computers plus it is purposely set up to make it easy to "bring your own entertainment" which a lot of people are always going to want to do. The video game aspect of Zwift is super cool and very useful in the group ride and race context but it is not the be all end all of indoor training. There is a huge segment of the indoor training tool market which is not actually interested in replicating the outdoor ride experience but rather is focused primarily on getting on the trainer, getting specified work done, and then getting off. For those people, it is a workout, not a ride. Not everyone's cup of tea for sure but that "just get the work done" group is not an insignificant market and one that TR addresses really well.

Zwift can be used on iPhone or iPads too. Considering how many people own an iPhone, you can very easily run Zwift.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

It doesn't matter per se. I was commenting on the fact that you're not really riding with anybody else when doing a custom workout. The fact that I can see a cyclist avatar and other online riders just doesn't have any real appeal to me. I'd rather be watching a sporting event on TV, when I'm not staring at my power number.

But assuming Zwift occasionally hands out free one-month memberships like TR, I'll give it a try one day. Maybe I'm just missing the appeal and I'll see the light after trying it, like GMAN. Thanks for all the info and screen shots.

I highly suggest you give it a try. I used Trainer Road for 2-3 years and just left for Zwift. I had played with Zwift in the past but stayed with Trainer Road to watch Zwift grow. With all of the features it has now, I can't go back to Trainer Road.

I don't really watch Zwift while using it in workout mode. I watch Netflix on my laptop while my Zwift runs on my iPad. Occasionally I will glance at it before intervals pop up but other than that, I'm doing the exact same thing on Trainer Road but in an immersive environment with other people. It's awesome.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Your speed in Zwift is determined by your power, your rider profile, and the Zwift terrain you're riding on. It has nothing to do with which gear you decide to use on the trainer. If you're doing 300W, you'll get the speed you deserve for 300W.

I think Zwift does a fairly decent job of taking your height and weight and deciding how fast you should be going on any given gradient. I would say it's a little optimistic in that my real world speed on the road bike is probably 5-10% lower than Zwift gives me for a given amount of power (when riding solo in both cases). But I don't see that as being terribly important.

If I'm not mistaken, the only case where you'll be going slower than your power deserves, is if you're doing a group workout where the speed is the same for everyone and I think it's dictated by the slowest in the group in order that no-one accidentally sets false personal best times during a workout.

 



At the risk of sounding like a complete TrainerRoad fanboy, TR has a great IOS app too (and Android as well which Zwift still is developing). In terms of what you need to get going and what device you can access the program on, there is basically no differences between TR and Zwift (other than Zwift runs better on a higher end computer whereas TR will run on almost any computer). As you point out, it is the nature of the manner in which you engage with the program that is the main difference between the two.

FWIW - I subscribe to both Zwift and TR and each has its place in my indoor training. Personally, I mainly use TR but I do see the value of Zwift and fully understand why so many people are so into it.

I used trainer road for several years and now completely switched to zwift. The workout mode does everything trainer road does. it is easier to create a custom workout in zwift and they are getting a better workout library.

If Zwift can add in workout plans comparable to trainer road, add more customizability, and release more content they will stay on top.

Yet I can't run it on my laptop because it doesn't meet graphics requirements...wtf

How old is your laptop? It's no different than buying PC games. If you don't have the minimum you can't play!

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Some people choose not to participate in the planned obsolescence model of our current consumer economy.

that's definitely part of my problem - eight+ hours a day of vanishing into a screen to earn my daily crust, another screen for recreation isn't very appealing..

--
Well, the elbows of his jacket
Are blue and shiny
He's drunk and gone to seed
He's drunk and gone to seed
.. you might as well have a good time..

So I'm definitely a Zwift fanboy, for many of the reasons already mentioned. But one thing I haven't seen mention, which I think is a big draw of Zwift, is the ability to free-ride. I understand the value of doing structured workouts, but I don't want to do high-intensity intervals (or Sweet-Spot, or whatever) everyday. I do, however, try to ride most every day. So on lighter days, I like to just free ride in zwift. If I plan on going about an hour, and want to hit say 40-50 tss, then I know I can do 3 laps around Watopia Volcano flat course doing 1 lap easy, 2nd lap high zone 2ish, 3rd lap easy and I'll get that. And that's much more enjoyable to me then just getting on the trainer and pedaling for an hour. (again, referring to free-riding). I can also do things like Hill-repeats, where I ride out to the Watopia hill, do a hard go up it, coast down, turn around and go up it again. Do a couple of those, then finish the lap and I have a decent, semi-structured workout.

Ain't singin' for Pepsi, Ain't singin' for Coke
I don't sing for nobody, Makes me look like a joke
This note's for you..

the music video that MTV refused to play..

I'm not sure this is the most applicable target for that comment. I don't think Zwift's minimum hardware requirements are especially demanding. It's not like you need anything particularly recent or high end. It would be rather silly to suggest software developers make everything scaleable to an 1983 Acorn Electron. There has to be a cutoff. The question is how far back does it go. State of the art video games, when I last played them (which isn't recently), were sold largely on the quality of the graphics. That meant they had to be run on a pretty current machine. It was a computing power constraint, not just a marketing ploy. Were some of the games producers in bed with hardware companies and trying to obsolete older hardware? Doubtful without a very complex and far reaching conspiracy I would think. It would be completely against the interests of software producers to restrict their market like that.
Zwift however, is not restricted to state of the art hardware. It will run on a wide range of pretty cheap hardware.

The order is actually inverted from what you - understandably - perceive in every case mentioned. Dan did a deal with Diamondback for advertising and some other stuff and, pursuant to that, my name came up and then I signed with them. And, in the case of Zwift, it was likewise a case of Dan's interest in the platform preceding my being hired. Were it not for Slowtwitch, I would not be working at Zwift. And even if I were not working at Zwift, Dan's interest in and enthusiasm for the platform would be undiminished.

Now, in fairness, you all only see the end result. And it takes longer to put together a collaborative plan to work with Slowtwitch than it does to announce a new athlete signing or hiring decision. But throughout my career, it has repeatedly been the case that Dan has been willing to go to bat for me with companies that have an interest in working on Slowtwitch. I have been the beneficiary of Dan's long history in the sport and his ability to forge partnerships. I doubt very much that I've given even 1% back to Slowtwitch of what it is has given to me.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Fair enough. I used to work for a major computer company and I get the need to draw a line in terms of minimum hardware/software requirements. My comment was intended more as a response to the 'just buy a the latest widget (without thinking about it)' mentality that I often see with bike-associated purchases, especially on this forum.

Exactly . At that, DVD movies play fine on it...

Ah yes, well that I somewhat agree with!

I'm in this boat as well. I ride everyday and sometimes I start Zwift and run it in the background just to get the level credit and meters for the Tron Bike and just watch TV. My house is on a hill so just getting up it is 10 tss alone, which makes recovery rides a bit difficult at times.

Zwift uses the classic carrot and the egg approach where you get stuff the more you do it. Almost all video games do that now because it works. I don't mind it really, in some ways that mimics real life. For example, I had to do 15 group rides before snob x rider would actually talk to me.

Anyone who understands computers and video game requirements in terms of computing power knows that it is not "buy another widget" just because. A good gaming rig can last for a long time before the games minimum requirements catch up. I love PC gaming and I build my own computers.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Inside is inferior in every way?

I have 70 minutes w kids sleeping. Either I stay indoors (and ride) or I don’t ride. +1 for indoor when you can’t leave the house

It takes me 15 mins to ride to decent roads (still have stop signs, stoplights and cars to deal with). So there is not much possibility for a very hard 1 hour ride for me. +1 for indoor when you need a quick hard effort

It rained most of winter here. Yes I could go outside, but I don’t hammer in rain as I do when it’s dry. All winter zwift let me get stronger and not maintain +1 for indoor when weather isn’t good

When i can’t work a weekend race into my life schedule, there’s a race almost hourly on zwift. Not exCtly the same, but better than nothing. +1 zwift racing

Indoor might not be “better” than outdoor overall. But there are many instances (at least for me) when indoor is WAY better

I agree. I have been using the TR structured programs for my weekday bike workouts since they were launched, and plan to continue doing so, though I can't generally handle more than about 90 minutes on TR (even with a tv show or movie also playing) so on weekends I do my long ride outside when the weather/scheduling allow but otherwise do group rides on Zwift on the weekends. Also, at the start of my offseason I see a benefit to taking a break from the structure of TR and just doing Zwift group rides for all my riding for 2-3 months. Though for me, when just doing a solo workout, and not a group event, I'm not sure that I'd see any real advantage to Zwift over TR as the graphics don't matter that much to me personally. However, if Zwift had structured training plans comparable to TR then there wouldn't be a need for me to pay two monthly subscription fees.

There are a few structured training plans in the workout library. Not as many as Trainer Road but more will be coming.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Dan is summing up my cycling life perfectly. I live in MIchigan, big part of the year its too damn cold (for me) to ride outside. That and the ice keep me inside. I started riding Zwift in 2015 and its taken up more and more of my endurance athletics.

There are great teams available to join to build out the social aspect. The group workouts are great in my mind because your are (1) building accountability and (2) suffering with a bunch of other people. I lead a group workout every Tuesday morning at 0530 ET for The Endurance Lab and TeamODZ. I think getting the group to develop some banter and to support one another makes it more enjoyable. I’d love it if I was able to see stats fed to me about who in our group may be pushing too hard or struggling to keep up. It would allow me to provide feedback. Beyond the group workouts the races and rides are also fun. And, as mentioned, just freeriding can be fun.

I agree Zwift could come out with more training plans, ala TR. Groups are filling that void though and offering coaching/training plans all built around zwift.

Regarding gravel, I bought a combination road/gravel bike from Seven last year (Red Sky). 4 miles from my house I can access a rail trail that then leads to 100s of miles of gravel and dirt roads throughout SE Michigan. Lot safer in my book and seeing as its michigan the gravel/dirt roads are probably in better shape then the paved ones.

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http://www.teamodz.com
http://www.endurancelab.fit

Dan, I was a bit surprised to see your responses. We are about the same age, been in the sport for about the same time, and live in So Cal. We can ride outdoor just about everyday. No shortage of people to ride with.
I have never tried Zwift, but do own a Computrainer. While I get a great workout on it, I would almost always rather be on the road.
The group rides I do are fun, but not just because of the competitive push, but the socialization. Since I know nothing of Zwift, how does that really compare?
Thanks for your insights.

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Team Zoot So Cal

No shortage of people to ride with. //

You are mostly right except for this part. Unless I'm up at the ranch Dan has 0 people to ride with, and even if I'm there it is 0 at the moment(not really riding). I hear you, I used to live in places where I could pitch up to any number of weekend rides, even a few during the week. Absolutely no substitute, unless of course you don't have that choice to begin with.


I just ordered my first power meter so that I can join this parade of online pelotons and group rides. Been awhile for me, but this is actually getting me interested in riding again. Of course as soon as I get some legs back, I will be outdoors as much as possible, and maybe even driving to the old Wednesday ride. So in that respect, this Swift thing is rekindling an old fire, not building one in a newbie...

yes, i live on socal. but... this is where i live.





so. yeah. actual, physical, on the road group rides are nice! and i grab them when i can. but they're not always available or practical for me.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Also Zwift will probably get lots more courses soon now that Google is opening its maps to engines like Unity

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

I am glad there are virtual people to ride with then 😜 Safer that way.
Virtual triathlons are not part of my future, but I can see the new generation buying into it. One could just put a contraption over their eyes and They’ll be racing Kona and beating Lange, Sanders and Frodeno!

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Team Zoot So Cal

Lucky you! Man, I would be a complete mountain bike junkie if I lived there! Looks awesome and real all terrain riding. Sit in front of a TV? no thanks.

Yet an iPhone is less powerful than my laptop... So there is a lite version, why not have one as beta mode for weaker laptops?

And yet the newest iPhones are the 4th fastest "computers" that Apple makes - iMac Pro, iMac, Macbook Pro 15" are the only ones more powerful. The A10 chip is pretty insane actually... And for gaming, because the phones are actually tailored to that - because people game a lot on their phone - they may actually be way better than a lot of the computers that are using embedded Intel graphics. It's pretty crazy but you can definitely not assume that phone << laptop anymore.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I appreciate you sharing the bases for your opinions, it provides helpful context.