Not what you were asking for, but my instinct is that the integrated hydration is worth ~1-2watts for the Plasma Premium. A position change could easily be >5watts.

I'll post the numbers here in a few days but, based on previous numbers from properly placed hydration systems like a Torhans Aero30 or a low mounted Profile FC35, I really expected the integrated components to significantly lower drag, which is why I believed it would be an interesting test. I thought the drag gap from the 2 positions would be closed up a bit. Didn't happen. In fact, it was worse with the integrated hydration by 2-3 watts. Results were repeatable.

Now, I also realize that front bottle probably does well at yaw, but now I have to wonder how much? Probably not as much as I thought.

---

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Did said athlete test TT stem with a Torhans or other aero-positive hydration?

---

ZONE3 - We Last Longer

I think you have to think about it in terms of what sort of head tube profile the front hydration is fairing. Caveats about the eyeball wind tunnel aside, the Plasma 5 Premium's head tube in UCI mode looks pretty aero. Very comparable to a Speed Concept.

We did one quick BTA test with a standard bottle, but we had run out of time to really get into it. That's something I would've liked to have done more given the surprising results.

---

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Agreed, and the tri stem without the front hydration is really clean, too. I was just surprised by the drag increase, but perhaps I shouldn't have been. Let me put together a side-by-side photo comparison real quick and post it up with the numbers.

---

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

A previous post asked whether an airfoil (s) can stall at zero degrees. I think you've found one.

-KQ

Doesn't surprise me really. Most of the D2Z lot on the Plasma 5 are using the TT stem.

Well, yeah, going to the TT stem and lower position was an obvious one if that's what you mean. It was the decreased drag from removing the front hydration, when we've see so often "elongating" the head tube with something like an Aero 30 can significantly decrease drag, that surprised me.

Now I can't wait to test the Aeria bar and front hydration. Not exactly apples to apples, but it has my interest.

---

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

to be clear, are you saying that:

1. no hydration at all is slightly faster than w/integrated front hydration? and you're surprised, because you thought front hydration would test faster than no front hydration. yes?
2. lower position is better than taller position, i.e., lowering the athlete with TT stem is faster than athlete with tri stem, the tri stem resulting in a taller position?

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yes, based on results from previous testing, I would have thought the integrated front hydration would actually lower drag. Mount a Torhans Aero 30 or a Profile FC35 properly, and you'll reduce drag by 5-10 watts (10 would be rare, but 7 or 8 we've seen often). This particular gentleman purchased the Plasma Premium hoping to use the integrated hydration system, but after his fit it was evident the Plasma would not allow him to get low enough with the Tri stem; only the TT stem would work. Thinking about it, I wondered if the integrated hydration might lower drag enough that it would close the gap between the lower position, which would obviously be faster drag-wise, and the higher position the Tri stem would demand? Fun test! It's just the results that surprised me. Certainly not the first time I've been surprised by a result.

---

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

thanks.

i spent a lot of time with that bike. built one from the frame up. i think it's a very well constructed bike, the hydration system inclusive. i think that front hydration systems, as often used, are a net negative, aerodynamically. down on the frame? not so much. up there? hard to make that dog hunt. aerodynamically.

so then you have to ask yourself about function. where does that system function best? because, the point of the system is to hydrate. unless you're not drinking at all and you just want it on there for the aero benefit.

there have been front hydration systems designed for their aero benefit (the old PD bullet) that were deemed illegal (irrespective of whether they worked). in my opinion, a properly functioning front hydration system that was only aero neutral is pretty darned good.

to put it another way, aside from the fact that this bike won't get low enough (i've written about this a lot), let's pretend that this person's position, with the tri stem, was correct. what would you use in place of this hydration system? because, if it's a frame mounted system, that's not as efficient, for me, as a refillable between-the-handlebars system.

it'd be interesting to check out canyon, etc., to see how the front hydration systems themselves test like, on and off the bike.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yes, I preach this all the time. Everyone gets so focused on placing their hydration systems (and everything else) in the most aerodynamic position possible, but forget about how they will use said systems and how that might effect their overall performance both aerodynamically and their ability to hydrate or get enough calories. The more convenient you make it, the less you have to contort your body to get to what you need, the faster you're likely to be overall.

I might be able to get my hands on a Canyon with front hydration.

---

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Why do you think this? I think you have it backwards...

i well may. but perhaps not if jim's testing is any indication.

i think most front hydration systems are built around the bottle. some kind of bottle. most often just regular water bottles picked up and discarded at aid stations.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

To be clear, most of our testing up until now has shown certain systems to lower drag when installed properly. These would be the bottles that hang below the extensions (Torhans, Profile FC35, etc.). In fact, we have a boat load of data on this, which is why I was so surprised by the results. I expected the Scott's system to decrease drag thereby closing the drag gap I knew would be created by the position change. I figured if it closed it enough, it would be worth staying in the higher position and using the bottle. Not so much this time.

The shape of a BTA, a true BTA, doesn't much matter since it's really not exposed to the wind. I always find it funny that many of these bottles are aerodynamically shaped. Why? A regular water bottle can be replaced very quickly at an aid station. No refilling before you leave the litter zone; just replace and dump. Which would be faster? Re-filling the bottle or replacing it? To drink from a straw doesn't require much change in position while grabbing a bottle out of the BTA holder and drinking does. Still, how much time are you giving up re-filling that refillable bottle as you go through an aid station v. quickly grabbing and replacing? It all might be aero neutral in the end, or one might be more aero through the course of a race.

I agree, though, that how you use the bottles, or even the ability to use them so you stay hydrated or get sufficient caloric intake, is an important part of the set up process that can be overlooked. It's easy to get caught up chasing the lowest CdA. I don't know of anyone that hasn't fallen into that trap at some point eschewing practicality.

---

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

well. there you go. shows you what i know.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Perhaps a bit off topic, but is there any aero penalty for that type of Garmin mount? Maybe I'm seeing it wrong though. From the pictures, it looks like this is the barrel mount with bungees holding on the Garmin.

jake

---

Get outside!

what in god's green earth does this have to do with swimming!! ;-)

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Hahaha.

I was thinking of adding one of those Garmin mounts to the sleeve of my wetsuit. If it's fast on the bike, it must be fast in the water!

Jake

---

Get outside!

there's some solid reasoning there.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Looks like it’s behind where the hands would be so doubtful.

I found your other thread on this test and the blog post, but there are no pics with it... can you post a picture of the upside down mounted FC35?

---

-Nate
Triathlonpal.com
Flaer|Team Kiwami|Nuun Hydration|Honey Stinger
Twitter: @N8deck

this bike is begging for an undermount

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

My main question is:

Why does someone that's a .25 even aero test?

1. We weren't looking for a low CdA, we were looking to test the bike and hydration system.
2. Aero is for everyone. Someone with a .25 is exactly the client I love to work with.
3. A post like that and you publicly wonder why a Tri team wants no part of you? Seriously?

---

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Hello Jim@EROsports and All,


Could be interesting to test a hydration pack under the front of the riders shirt with the straw by the rider's mouth.

In lieu of that ...... for a simulation ..... just stuff a pillow about the size of a 3 liter hydration pack under the front of the jersey for aero comparisons .... should be a snug fit with a smooth shirt.

In the SD LSWT I was measurably more aero with the front hydration pack than without it .... and it does not get much easier to drink on demand.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/?post=6583212#p6583212

Perhaps there is an advantage for pot bellied cyclists .... but for most cyclists the advantage slowly disappears as you 'drink the aero' unless you keep the hydration bladder pressurized.

Dr. Shepard (below) had something else going for him (drugs) .... but his pot belly (other than the weight) was likely making him more aero and faster.



https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/.../12/droopy-mcdongle/

"Anyway, here is how the race unfolded when Dr. Shepard came to race on the track at L.A. and went back to Minnesota crowned Champion of the Entire World of Men of a Certain Age Riding Bicyles, Namely 60-64 Except for Those Who are 59 but Turn 60 in 2017.



That is the link to the 60-64 worlds scratch race. The race is 30 laps, 7.5km. It starts at 4:58:56. One lap to get up to speed and then it’s game on. The perp, Clayton Shepard, is number 389. Mike Hines, a friend of mine and multiple champion, is 371.

Here is Shepard going from the gun and dragging a guy with him. Shepard pulls through too hard and gaps the guy out, who is aero AF to try to get back onto the wheel of this quickly moving cement wall. Shepard is casually looking across the track while pulling solo and checks to see how far he has to go to get around. Because when you are riding that fast on a velodrome you always want to gaze around. Maybe you might know one of the three people in the stands!"

---

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

So I guess pink font is still necessary.

Personally, I'd very rarely encourage someone to spend hundreds of their dollars on aero testing when they are clearly not going to be punching a small hole in the wind, either because their profile is simply big or because they have some impediment to aero optimization that exists. That can come in many forms.

I also have issues with this idea of short cutting that seems prevalent. Technical skills, transition efficiency, etc all play far bigger roles for most triathletes than whether they are a .23 or a .24. Watching really aero guys go around turns and weave trough traffic and struggle to take in water or gels is ironic, at best. A lack of efficiency through transition can EASILY cost an athlete 1-2mins in an IM. How many watts is that worth on the bike, 10? What they [maybe] gain in aero efficiency they lose hand over fist in a simple like of skill.

But. Those things are harder to learn and take more time than 2hrs at a velodrome or a wind tunnel.

If, however, it was my job to sell tunnel time to athletes then obviously every thing I just said is cynical bullshit and the faster an athlete is in aero the faster an athlete is.

I'd assumed that you've read my posts/cpmments enough to understand when I'm being sarcastic with my reply to you a few posts up but I suppose I can never take that for granted.

So if you're not very aero, you shouldn't bother trying to get more aero? Instead you should work on your transition skills (because if your CdA isn't very low, you must have sucky transitions, right)? That's some superbly helpful advice, right there!

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

That's not what I was suggesting.

I look it that way too...

The common argument from *some* around here is that aero doesn't matter if you're slow... or lacking in skills... or whatever, and spending money to get more aero makes no sense if you can just work harder to go faster...

That's dumb

BOTH are important...

Yes, don't get so aero you can't hold it, or take in nutrition, etc.

and don't spend so much time worrying about equipment that you don't train (which includes practicing transitions, and other skills)

But to say you don't need to worry about aerodynamics until you are fast... that's just flat wrong

---

-Nate
Triathlonpal.com
Flaer|Team Kiwami|Nuun Hydration|Honey Stinger
Twitter: @N8deck

It's the elitist mindset in triathlon that will destroy this sport. You can't have a P5-X or P5 unless you are fast, you can't aero test unless you are fast, you can't have this or that unless Slowtwitch approves. How about train hard, show up and race, and buy whatever you want.

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

to get to .249 of course

---

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Thank you.

all jokes aside... James has done more to help people go faster (FOR FREE) on this site than the vast majority of folks on here ever will... I think we can give him a pass on not using the pink font...

---

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

He has been helpful and I know James personally. My comment was not directed at him but a few others who think they are experts on what triathletes need.

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I don't expect anyone fast to have a P5x...

its kind of interesting despite saying it differently ie they said the 5 was 7 % faster in with tri stem and aero system and 5 % faster than tt stem than plasma 3
they seem to have come to the same conclusion you mentioned for the new bike.
https://www.scott-sports.com/global/cs/plasma-6