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Fat soon become the new norm?
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A scary prediction - 70% of millenniels are likely to become overweight or obese. That's a 40% increase over baby boomers. And this study is from the U.K. so I would imagine it could even be a bit higher in N.A. (even though the UK is leading Europe in obesity).

https://www.mirror.co.uk/...ration-ever-12089055
Last edited by: cerveloguy: Mar 5, 18 8:21
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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It’s already the new norm — just go to Disney world, a cruise, or Wisconsin
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [ChiTownJack] [ In reply to ]
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ChiTownJack wrote:
It’s already the new norm — just go to Disney world, a cruise, or Wisconsin

I remember Disney had to resize the seats at a number of their rides a few years back. Some friends were recently on a cruise and posted photos from it on their facebook page. Barely anybody in the photos wasn't way overweight. I've never been to Wisconsin. Will have to visit JSA some year. :-)
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [ChiTownJack] [ In reply to ]
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ChiTownJack wrote:
It’s already the new norm — just go to Disney world, a cruise, or Wisconsin

Ha! Just got back from one day at Disney world (Animal Kingdom), I was thinking the same thing.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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Why do you hate the weight challenged?

It’s not their fault. Companies make them eat food that is bad for them.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [davec] [ In reply to ]
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davec wrote:
Why do you hate the weight challenged?

It’s not their fault. Companies make them eat food that is bad for them.

And it's always because of glandular/hormonal/genetic problems. Lifestyle choices have nothing to do with it.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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O.k., once this is reality, I will reverse my previous statements and support removal of Podium Girls at the Tour. Oh wait, wrong forum...
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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I just don’t see this in Boulder or Palo Alto. Is it FakeNews?
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]
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Moonrocket wrote:
I just don’t see this in Boulder or Palo Alto. Is it FakeNews?

I don't know about Wisconsin or Palo Alto, but when I lived in Texas City, Texas (off I-45 between Houston and Galveston) I was amazed how the area basically scenes from the Pixar movie WALL-E.



Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [ChiTownJack] [ In reply to ]
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ChiTownJack wrote:
It’s already the new norm — just go to Disney world, a cruise, or Wisconsin

Shiiiiiit. We have a LONG way to go to top that list. And, FIBs shouldn't be throwing stones. You are right there with us porky ...

http://www.eatthis.com/...s-in-america-ranked/

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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This blows me away -- even Colorado is at 21% obesity as the least-obese state in the country. That's a gross percentage for any state, ridiculous that it's the least obese. I knew it was getting worse, but had no perspective on exactly how bad it is.

But speaking of unhealthy -- I need your advice. I'll be in Milwaukee for my birthday weekend in a few weeks, going to an event with a group of friends & spending a couple of days there. What are some good restaurants for indulging? Nothing expensive, as the expensive meal will happen with my wife & I'll have friends who are on a tighter budget, but something that's good cuisine, not Panera, unique, and memorable. And is there a good bakery downtown? I'm going to have to have some cake at the ready.



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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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Why should the millennials, or any other generation for that matter, care about their girth? If and when they get sick, the health insurance company will foot the bill. No insurance? Well, then Medicaid. No Medicaid? Open a GoFundMe page.

The only way to solve the problem is to make it costly to be overweight or, to say it another way, to give people a financial incentive to stay thin. When an obese person pays the same health insurance premium as a skinny person, there’s zero incentive to lose weight.

You don’t get peoples’ attention until you hit them in the pocketbook.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]
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Moonrocket wrote:
I just don’t see this in Boulder or Palo Alto. Is it FakeNews?

I wouldn’t exactly say Boulder is an average American town. It’s probabaly one of the most active cities in the US.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [MidwestRoadie] [ In reply to ]
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MidwestRoadie wrote:
This blows me away -- even Colorado is at 21% obesity as the least-obese state in the country. That's a gross percentage for any state, ridiculous that it's the least obese. I knew it was getting worse, but had no perspective on exactly how bad it is.

But speaking of unhealthy -- I need your advice. I'll be in Milwaukee for my birthday weekend in a few weeks, going to an event with a group of friends & spending a couple of days there. What are some good restaurants for indulging? Nothing expensive, as the expensive meal will happen with my wife & I'll have friends who are on a tighter budget, but something that's good cuisine, not Panera, unique, and memorable. And is there a good bakery downtown? I'm going to have to have some cake at the ready.





Check out Indulgence Chocolatiers for a wine/beer/whiskey and chocolate pairing, if you want something fun to do: https://www.indulgencechocolatiers.com/

Bodegon at Hotel Madrid is excellent for dinner or for a unique brunch. Mixed prices: http://www.hotelmadridmke.com/restaurant

It may not be open due to weather, but, The Yard at the Iron Horse Hotel is awesome. Outdoor seating with fires. Great drinks and a great food menu. Smyth is the inside restaurant. Very nice, but a little pricier: http://www.theironhorsehotel.com/food-beverage/

Swig is down in the 3rd Ward. Small plates. Great martinis: http://swigmilwaukee.com/

Café Benelux is great for the Euro-vibe with some great beer selections: https://cafebenelux.com/

If just want a good ole fashioned bar/brewery, go to Milwaukee Ale House: http://ale-house.com/

Finally, if you want the best Napoletana Pizza, try San Giorgio Pizza. Simply amazing: https://sangiorgiopizza.com/

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Post deleted by spudone [ In reply to ]
Last edited by: spudone: Mar 5, 18 10:22
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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There are some great options on this list. Perfect. Thank you!
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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It is already the norm.

We used to sit outside our office building at work. 2/3 of people coming out for lunch were visibly overweight. And we were pretty lenient. They had to have a visible gut or be clearly overweight. This method probably skewed the number low as they had to have the motivation to actually leave the building for lunch and not just eat in the cafeteria.

And we have gone beyond fat acceptance. I'm all for minding your own business and not worrying about whether someone else is fat. But it is not healthy and I don't find it attractive. That doesn't make me a bad person.

I put a lot of the blame on our modern office based jobs. You come in, sit, candy everywhere, bagels and donuts brought in often, cookies everywhere, vending machines on every floor. No real chance to move around. Very few people have a physically hard job any more. You have to go out of your way to exercise and your job used to take care of that for you.

And peoples' ideas on what is better or worse for you is just jacked up. As my 250+ lbs co-worker was eating cookie after cookie this morning she told me that she stopped drinking Diet Pepsi because it was so bad for you.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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So, demonize it or victimize it? I'm guessing the latter..
In Reply To:
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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spudone wrote:
You don’t get peoples’ attention until you hit them in the pocketbook.

Lol if you seriously think the UNLIMITED access to health care in the U.S. is contributing to obesity. You need to look at the problem from the viewpoint of someone living paycheck to paycheck. Simply buying healthy food costs more (tough for someone struggling to pay rent), and takes more time to cook at home (tough for someone working multiple jobs).

As long as bad food is easier / cheaper, and a significant number of folks are just scraping by near the poverty line, the trend will continue. Pushing healthy changes through punitive measures won't work for people who are out of other options.[/quote]Ain't about what you eat. That's one of the "great lies" of our culture. 3500 excess Cal of kale will put on the same pound of blubber as 3000 excess Cal of twinkees. Simple thermodynamics.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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That and although there is a decrease of obesity with rising income levels, not a huge difference. Lower income does account for some of the obesity trends, but overall everyone is more obesity at all income levels.

I agree with someone who said it earlier the workplaces is a major contributor. If I’m working in the yard on the weekend I can go hours without thinking about eating. When you’re sitting in a office most people’s brains aren’t that occupied so wanting to eat is thought about more.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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While that is true, it's more complicated then that.

Go to McDonald's and eat 1500 Cal of food. You can do that in 10 minutes and still feel hungry 15 minutes later. Go eat 1500 Cal of salad and you'll be eating 5 large bowls of food.

Trying to restrict your caloric intake on a diet of heavily processed foods means you'll barely be eating anything volume wise and always feel hungry. It would be really, really hard to do.

I think there needs to be a large educational push around what healthy eating really is. North America's food culture is pretty messed up.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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People are fat because it’s ok to be fat now. We have fat swim suit models now for Christ’s sake. It’s disgusting. You can’t “judge” anyone anymore. This is the result. “I love me just the way I am.” Well I think you’re a fat pig.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
While that is true, it's more complicated then that.

Go to McDonald's and eat 1500 Cal of food. You can do that in 10 minutes and still feel hungry 15 minutes later. Go eat 1500 Cal of salad and you'll be eating 5 large bowls of food.

Trying to restrict your caloric intake on a diet of heavily processed foods means you'll barely be eating anything volume wise and always feel hungry. It would be really, really hard to do.

I think there needs to be a large educational push around what healthy eating really is. North America's food culture is pretty messed up.
We've created this whole cultural lie of equating fat with "what you eat". Get into any conversation in any forum anywhere, talk about losing fat, and people will start talking about "what you eat" much more than "eat fewer calories". In fact, in most places if you try to orient them on the basic thermodynamics of this, they will push back, insisting that it's at least as much an issue of "what you eat", as if the human body didn't have to obey the laws of thermodynamics.

The problem this creates is that it allows folks to avoid the hard truth of "eat less". As long as you give humans a way to avoid a requirement for self-discipline, they will.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
BCtriguy1 wrote:
While that is true, it's more complicated then that.

Go to McDonald's and eat 1500 Cal of food. You can do that in 10 minutes and still feel hungry 15 minutes later. Go eat 1500 Cal of salad and you'll be eating 5 large bowls of food.

Trying to restrict your caloric intake on a diet of heavily processed foods means you'll barely be eating anything volume wise and always feel hungry. It would be really, really hard to do.

I think there needs to be a large educational push around what healthy eating really is. North America's food culture is pretty messed up.
We've created this whole cultural lie of equating fat with "what you eat". Get into any conversation in any forum anywhere, talk about losing fat, and people will start talking about "what you eat" much more than "eat fewer calories". In fact, in most places if you try to orient them on the basic thermodynamics of this, they will push back, insisting that it's at least as much an issue of "what you eat", as if the human body didn't have to obey the laws of thermodynamics.

The problem this creates is that it allows folks to avoid the hard truth of "eat less". As long as you give humans a way to avoid a requirement for self-discipline, they will.

I totally disagree with this and believe new research will show different people metabolize different foods differently. I think much of what we know about nutrition will change relative to learning more about genetics. They already know there are genetic reasons people can’t metabolize different things. I think the same potato impacts different people differently but we just don’t fully understand it yet. Humans are not a simple furnace.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
We've created this whole cultural lie of equating fat with "what you eat". Get into any conversation in any forum anywhere, talk about losing fat, and people will start talking about "what you eat" much more than "eat fewer calories". In fact, in most places if you try to orient them on the basic thermodynamics of this, they will push back, insisting that it's at least as much an issue of "what you eat", as if the human body didn't have to obey the laws of thermodynamics.

The problem this creates is that it allows folks to avoid the hard truth of "eat less". As long as you give humans a way to avoid a requirement for self-discipline, they will.

I think it matters quite a bit what you eat and when you eat. The body doesn't follow simple laws of thermodynamics because it's a living thing that can control how it burns and stores energy based on it's perception of what kind of energy it is receiving and spending. Sure, if the furnace is hot enough it will burn anything and if the caloric intake is absolutely minimal enough even a starving and shut down body will continue to lose weight. I'm not sure either of those is ideal or practical, however. A balance of calories throughout the day that is high in protein and healthy fats and consumes easily burnable carbs, especially shortly before physical activity, is probably the long term key to success.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
BCtriguy1 wrote:
While that is true, it's more complicated then that.

Go to McDonald's and eat 1500 Cal of food. You can do that in 10 minutes and still feel hungry 15 minutes later. Go eat 1500 Cal of salad and you'll be eating 5 large bowls of food.

Trying to restrict your caloric intake on a diet of heavily processed foods means you'll barely be eating anything volume wise and always feel hungry. It would be really, really hard to do.

I think there needs to be a large educational push around what healthy eating really is. North America's food culture is pretty messed up.
We've created this whole cultural lie of equating fat with "what you eat". Get into any conversation in any forum anywhere, talk about losing fat, and people will start talking about "what you eat" much more than "eat fewer calories". In fact, in most places if you try to orient them on the basic thermodynamics of this, they will push back, insisting that it's at least as much an issue of "what you eat", as if the human body didn't have to obey the laws of thermodynamics.

The problem this creates is that it allows folks to avoid the hard truth of "eat less". As long as you give humans a way to avoid a requirement for self-discipline, they will.

While that's true, I still think you're over simplifying the problem, and giving too much credit to what most people know about food and thermodynamics.

Someone eating nothing but shit could probably still lose weight by eating more food, volume wise, that's healthy and less calorie dense. If you want to say "eat fewer calories" that's probably more accurate. Also simply eating less isn't really a ticket to good health either, if you're still eating shit, just less of it.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
We've created this whole cultural lie of equating fat with "what you eat". Get into any conversation in any forum anywhere, talk about losing fat, and people will start talking about "what you eat" much more than "eat fewer calories". In fact, in most places if you try to orient them on the basic thermodynamics of this, they will push back, insisting that it's at least as much an issue of "what you eat", as if the human body didn't have to obey the laws of thermodynamics.

The problem this creates is that it allows folks to avoid the hard truth of "eat less".
As long as you give humans a way to avoid a requirement for self-discipline, they will.
'Eat less' isn't the answer, though, it has to be a fairly balanced diet. If your 'diet' is a large iced coffee with cream and sugar (250cal) and a pop tart (210cal); half a Big Mac (266cal), medium fry (340cal) and Coke (201cal); and 2 slices of pepperoni pizza (500cal) and a chocolate chip cookie (160cal) you'll be at 1,927 calories, and you'll also be ready to gnaw your arm off after a few days.

Your bodies reaction to the foods we eat is just as important as the calories being ingested. The insulin spikes and crashes and hunger pangs are real when you're eating these calorie-dense foods. The sugary stuff causes you to spike then burn, the dense, heavy foods just drag you down. If you're eating a salad for lunch every day you're not getting those spikes and you're ingesting a good volume of nutrient-rich foods while limiting the calories consumed.

So while it's true that calories in vs calories burned is the simplistic way to look at it, the TYPE of calories are very important too.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]
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Moonrocket wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
BCtriguy1 wrote:
While that is true, it's more complicated then that.

Go to McDonald's and eat 1500 Cal of food. You can do that in 10 minutes and still feel hungry 15 minutes later. Go eat 1500 Cal of salad and you'll be eating 5 large bowls of food.

Trying to restrict your caloric intake on a diet of heavily processed foods means you'll barely be eating anything volume wise and always feel hungry. It would be really, really hard to do.

I think there needs to be a large educational push around what healthy eating really is. North America's food culture is pretty messed up.

We've created this whole cultural lie of equating fat with "what you eat". Get into any conversation in any forum anywhere, talk about losing fat, and people will start talking about "what you eat" much more than "eat fewer calories". In fact, in most places if you try to orient them on the basic thermodynamics of this, they will push back, insisting that it's at least as much an issue of "what you eat", as if the human body didn't have to obey the laws of thermodynamics.

The problem this creates is that it allows folks to avoid the hard truth of "eat less". As long as you give humans a way to avoid a requirement for self-discipline, they will.


I totally disagree with this and believe new research will show different people metabolize different foods differently. I think much of what we know about nutrition will change relative to learning more about genetics. They already know there are genetic reasons people can’t metabolize different things. I think the same potato impacts different people differently but we just don’t fully understand it yet. Humans are not a simple furnace.

When you do a thermodynamics or heat transfer problem, often you have choices as to where to put the boundaries of your problem. For example, you can try to follow the various ways the body gets energy from food. The objective is to set your boundaries in such a way that they simplify the problem. So as long as you set your boundaries cleverly, say at the exterior surface of the body, then the body becomes a simple furnace. Fuel in. Kinetic and thermal energy out. Subtract caloric value of waste products. Done.

I'm all for better understanding of the various metabolic processes. But in terms of losing fat, nothing you find is going to change the basic truth of "losing fat requires a calorie deficit". Just the popular idea that one person's basal metabolism differs significantly from another's puts more strain on thermodynamics than physics will allow.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Jim @ LOTO, MO] [ In reply to ]
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The only way to solve the problem is to make it costly to be overweight or, to say it another way, to give people a financial incentive to stay thin. When an obese person pays the same health insurance premium as a skinny person, there’s zero incentive to lose weight.

x 2

See, there's always things people can agree on...

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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
Moonrocket wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
BCtriguy1 wrote:
While that is true, it's more complicated then that.

Go to McDonald's and eat 1500 Cal of food. You can do that in 10 minutes and still feel hungry 15 minutes later. Go eat 1500 Cal of salad and you'll be eating 5 large bowls of food.

Trying to restrict your caloric intake on a diet of heavily processed foods means you'll barely be eating anything volume wise and always feel hungry. It would be really, really hard to do.

I think there needs to be a large educational push around what healthy eating really is. North America's food culture is pretty messed up.

We've created this whole cultural lie of equating fat with "what you eat". Get into any conversation in any forum anywhere, talk about losing fat, and people will start talking about "what you eat" much more than "eat fewer calories". In fact, in most places if you try to orient them on the basic thermodynamics of this, they will push back, insisting that it's at least as much an issue of "what you eat", as if the human body didn't have to obey the laws of thermodynamics.

The problem this creates is that it allows folks to avoid the hard truth of "eat less". As long as you give humans a way to avoid a requirement for self-discipline, they will.


I totally disagree with this and believe new research will show different people metabolize different foods differently. I think much of what we know about nutrition will change relative to learning more about genetics. They already know there are genetic reasons people can’t metabolize different things. I think the same potato impacts different people differently but we just don’t fully understand it yet. Humans are not a simple furnace.

When you do a thermodynamics or heat transfer problem, often you have choices as to where to put the boundaries of your problem. For example, you can try to follow the various ways the body gets energy from food. The objective is to set your boundaries in such a way that they simplify the problem. So as long as you set your boundaries cleverly, say at the exterior surface of the body, then the body becomes a simple furnace. Fuel in. Kinetic and thermal energy out. Subtract caloric value of waste products. Done.

I'm all for better understanding of the various metabolic processes. But in terms of losing fat, nothing you find is going to change the basic truth of "losing fat requires a calorie deficit". Just the popular idea that one person's basal metabolism differs significantly from another's puts more strain on thermodynamics than physics will allow.

Even using your information you talk about subtracting caloric value of waste. In my experience you subtract a lot more for a big kale salad than a chocolate bar. So that would imply what comes out matters and what comes out is linked to what goes in.

How do you explain that spicy food can boost your metabolism ~8% with a tiny energy add?
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
While that's true, I still think you're over simplifying the problem, and giving too much credit to what most people know about food and thermodynamics.

Someone eating nothing but shit could probably still lose weight by eating more food, volume wise, that's healthy and less calorie dense. If you want to say "eat fewer calories" that's probably more accurate. Also simply eating less isn't really a ticket to good health either, if you're still eating shit, just less of it.

Yes yes. Whenever there's a thread about losing fat and the "its what you eat" crowd gets hammered by thermodynamics, the word "healthy" starts appearing.

Losing fat is thermodynamics. "Eating healthy" is a lot more complicated. I've said nothing about eating well/healthy. You grant me that losing fat is thermodynamics and I'll grant you that eating well is a lot more complicated.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]
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Moonrocket wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
Moonrocket wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
We've created this whole cultural lie of equating fat with "what you eat". Get into any conversation in any forum anywhere, talk about losing fat, and people will start talking about "what you eat" much more than "eat fewer calories". In fact, in most places if you try to orient them on the basic thermodynamics of this, they will push back, insisting that it's at least as much an issue of "what you eat", as if the human body didn't have to obey the laws of thermodynamics.

The problem this creates is that it allows folks to avoid the hard truth of "eat less". As long as you give humans a way to avoid a requirement for self-discipline, they will.


I totally disagree with this and believe new research will show different people metabolize different foods differently. I think much of what we know about nutrition will change relative to learning more about genetics. They already know there are genetic reasons people can’t metabolize different things. I think the same potato impacts different people differently but we just don’t fully understand it yet. Humans are not a simple furnace.


When you do a thermodynamics or heat transfer problem, often you have choices as to where to put the boundaries of your problem. For example, you can try to follow the various ways the body gets energy from food. The objective is to set your boundaries in such a way that they simplify the problem. So as long as you set your boundaries cleverly, say at the exterior surface of the body, then the body becomes a simple furnace. Fuel in. Kinetic and thermal energy out. Subtract caloric value of waste products. Done.

I'm all for better understanding of the various metabolic processes. But in terms of losing fat, nothing you find is going to change the basic truth of "losing fat requires a calorie deficit". Just the popular idea that one person's basal metabolism differs significantly from another's puts more strain on thermodynamics than physics will allow.


Even using your information you talk about subtracting caloric value of waste. In my experience you subtract a lot more for a big kale salad than a chocolate bar. So that would imply what comes out matters and what comes out is linked to what goes in.

How do you explain that spicy food can boost your metabolism ~8% with a tiny energy add?
Don't really have to explain it.
If certain kinds of food cause additional energy loss via heat, one just accounts for it. That is to say, you write down in your spreadsheet that <food item> increased body temp, on average, 1 deg for 5min. Not necessary to figure out the mechanism that allows spicy to boosts metabolism. Keep in mind tho that your body tries to keep the same internal temp so trying to show that spicy food makes you radiate 8% more energy is going to be an uphill climb. Note also that "boosting metabolism" by 8% isn't exactly the same as "body energy loss goes up by 8%".

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
The only way to solve the problem is to make it costly to be overweight or, to say it another way, to give people a financial incentive to stay thin. When an obese person pays the same health insurance premium as a skinny person, there’s zero incentive to lose weight.

x 2

See, there's always things people can agree on...

So does this mean you're done responding on this thread?

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:

Yes yes. Whenever there's a thread about losing fat and the "its what you eat" crowd gets hammered by thermodynamics, the word "healthy" starts appearing.

Losing fat is thermodynamics. "Eating healthy" is a lot more complicated. I've said nothing about eating well/healthy. You grant me that losing fat is thermodynamics and I'll grant you that eating well is a lot more complicated.
But you also said this:
We've created this whole cultural lie of equating fat with "what you eat". Get into any conversation in any forum anywhere, talk about losing fat, and people will start talking about "what you eat" much more than "eat fewer calories". In fact, in most places if you try to orient them on the basic thermodynamics of this, they will push back, insisting that it's at least as much an issue of "what you eat", as if the human body didn't have to obey the laws of thermodynamics.

Losing weight is a process. Granted it's simple from a thermodynamics perspective, but to drop 10 pounds takes probably 6 weeks to do it in a healthy way and that's 42 days and about 126 meals. Generally people try to exercise to speed up their metabolism and burn more calories, which takes some energy.

And so going from basic theory ('calories in vs calories out') to practical application ('eat three big macs a day and you're good, it's under the X calories you burn') you have to introduce healthy eating. No one argues with the 'calories in vs calories out', or at least it's not argued about much, so why bother? What's IMPORTANT when discussing weight loss is how you sustain a diet you can live with, while exercises and doing everything else AND keeping calories in less than calories out. Nothing else matters unless your body is getting the proper fuel and nutrients so you don't crash and burn.

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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
So as long as you set your boundaries cleverly, say at the exterior surface of the body, then the body becomes a simple furnace. Fuel in. Kinetic and thermal energy out. Subtract caloric value of waste products. Done.

I'm all for better understanding of the various metabolic processes. But in terms of losing fat, nothing you find is going to change the basic truth of "losing fat requires a calorie deficit". Just the popular idea that one person's basal metabolism differs significantly from another's puts more strain on thermodynamics than physics will allow.

But it's not that simple. As the body takes in fewer calories the furnace doesn't burn as hot so the less you eat the less you burn and it's gets progressively harder to stay in calorie deficit. Starvation diets don't work, not for long anyways. The body wants to survive and it will adjust to fewer calories accordingly. Most people I talk to about weight loss (these are 30ish BMI people who are trying and failing) need to eat more, not less. Obviously the 10k calorie/day person can change almost anything and lose weight, but I don't think anyone would waste time debating that.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Spiridon Louis] [ In reply to ]
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Spiridon Louis wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
So as long as you set your boundaries cleverly, say at the exterior surface of the body, then the body becomes a simple furnace. Fuel in. Kinetic and thermal energy out. Subtract caloric value of waste products. Done.

I'm all for better understanding of the various metabolic processes. But in terms of losing fat, nothing you find is going to change the basic truth of "losing fat requires a calorie deficit". Just the popular idea that one person's basal metabolism differs significantly from another's puts more strain on thermodynamics than physics will allow.


But it's not that simple. As the body takes in fewer calories the furnace doesn't burn as hot so the less you eat the less you burn and it's gets progressively harder to stay in calorie deficit. Starvation diets don't work, not for long anyways. The body wants to survive and it will adjust to fewer calories accordingly. Most people I talk to about weight loss (these are 30ish BMI people who are trying and failing) need to eat more, not less. Obviously the 10k calorie/day person can change almost anything and lose weight, but I don't think anyone would waste time debating that.
The thermodynamics of the issue are that simple. But as you described, the self discipline aspects of losing fat are not simple.

It's like the basic trueism that the key to the success of all diets is running calorie deficits. There's just no other way to make it work. One has to understand that basic idea first. Then they can drive on with the more complicated idea of how they want to achieve that calorie deficit.

The problem is that folks, in the context of fat loss, can't seem to quit talking about "what to eat". So the basic thermodynamics of the issue get lost in the noise.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Simply eating less isn't always the best way to get to a calorie deficit. Like I said, a lot of people I talk to about exercise and weight loss need to eat more. Their body is in starvation mode and they are storing every calorie they can. Their body literally thinks it's starving to death. I've seen people on strict 1600 calorie diets with BMIs over 30. I used to think that was impossible. It isn't. They're tearfully frustrated and legitimately so. Eating less, unless they become concentration camp prisoners, isn't going to get them in calorie deficit. They need to eat more, differently, and more often. And then they need to burn that off, but their "furnace" is so not hot there's barely a flame there.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Spiridon Louis] [ In reply to ]
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Spiridon Louis wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
So as long as you set your boundaries cleverly, say at the exterior surface of the body, then the body becomes a simple furnace. Fuel in. Kinetic and thermal energy out. Subtract caloric value of waste products. Done.

I'm all for better understanding of the various metabolic processes. But in terms of losing fat, nothing you find is going to change the basic truth of "losing fat requires a calorie deficit". Just the popular idea that one person's basal metabolism differs significantly from another's puts more strain on thermodynamics than physics will allow.


But it's not that simple. As the body takes in fewer calories the furnace doesn't burn as hot so the less you eat the less you burn and it's gets progressively harder to stay in calorie deficit. Starvation diets don't work, not for long anyways. The body wants to survive and it will adjust to fewer calories accordingly. Most people I talk to about weight loss (these are 30ish BMI people who are trying and failing) need to eat more, not less. Obviously the 10k calorie/day person can change almost anything and lose weight, but I don't think anyone would waste time debating that.

This is simply not true. The body can be adapted to ketosis where stored fat is used as energy instead of glucose. There are different ways to get the body to enter ketosis and entire books and quite a bit of research has been done on the subject. It is perfectly normal to get the body to start using fat stores when food is unavailable, that is what nature has designed.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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Very few people have a physically hard job any more.
---

I don't think that matters. Every time I drive by one of the traditionally more physical jobs (Ex: construction), there are an abundance of fatties working on the site. I had some roofers do some work and I was unrealistically concerned about the potential for infrastructure failure of my room. The anti-fat shaming cohort has done an excellent job!

Since we're on the topic, let's not forget the ability of pop-culture to influence the masses. How many shows are out there featuring obese men married to hotties? (/semi-pink)






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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Controversies about ketogenic diets aside, basal metabolic rates tend to decrease when people are ketogenic, which was kinda my point -- the body slows itself down as a survival compensation when it's starving.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Spiridon Louis] [ In reply to ]
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Spiridon Louis wrote:
Controversies about ketogenic diets aside, basal metabolic rates tend to decrease when people are ketogenic, which was kinda my point -- the body slows itself down as a survival compensation when it's starving.

But even with a reduction in metabolism, it may not be directly correlated with fat storage or usage. There are other hormonal factors in play which aren't directly linked with metabolic rate. There are other ways of entering ketosis aside from the ketogenic diet, for example various types of fasting.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Jim @ LOTO, MO] [ In reply to ]
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Jim @ LOTO, MO wrote:
Why should the millennials, or any other generation for that matter, care about their girth? If and when they get sick, the health insurance company will foot the bill. No insurance? Well, then Medicaid. No Medicaid? Open a GoFundMe page.

The only way to solve the problem is to make it costly to be overweight or, to say it another way, to give people a financial incentive to stay thin. When an obese person pays the same health insurance premium as a skinny person, there’s zero incentive to lose weight.

You don’t get peoples’ attention until you hit them in the pocketbook.

Isn't it interesting that the most obese states always tend to vote Republican and did so for Trump in particular in the last election.

https://www.salon.com/...enable_them_partner/
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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I live in Japan where most people stay thin. One of the first things I notice when I return to Canada is how big and fat everyone is. Not that I'm super fit, I'm 6'2 and weigh about 210lbs, but I feel fit around all the fatties. One thing I notice is how everyone sips on coffee or energy drinks all day long at work, especially customer service jobs. I also notice how the portions and sizes of everything (food) is so much bigger compared to Japan. I usually gain at least 5lbs when I return home to BC for a few weeks. Everyone is smoking weed, drinking beer and wine. Well, not everyone but millennials especially. Unless you are really dedicated to staying in shape, I can understand why fat has become the new norm.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [tri_kid] [ In reply to ]
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tri_kid wrote:
I live in Japan where most people stay thin. One of the first things I notice when I return to Canada is how big and fat everyone is. Not that I'm super fit, I'm 6'2 and weigh about 210lbs, but I feel fit around all the fatties. One thing I notice is how everyone sips on coffee or energy drinks all day long at work, especially customer service jobs. I also notice how the portions and sizes of everything (food) is so much bigger compared to Japan. I usually gain at least 5lbs when I return home to BC for a few weeks. Everyone is smoking weed, drinking beer and wine. Well, not everyone but millennials especially. Unless you are really dedicated to staying in shape, I can understand why fat has become the new norm.

You nailed it. We have a neighbor who yo-yo diets. She'll drop thirty lbs and looks great only to put it on a few months later. She doesn't understand that its all about lifestyle and dieting won't do it.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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This is a problem that goes back several generations now. There are a lot of players that got us here, Big business, politicians, lack of oversight by parents, etc. It is not that much different than our gun problem, or smoking, or auto deaths. It is not going to be one thing that gets us out either, and that will be generations too because now there is a culture making a big profit off of us being fat and eating bad diets. Just take a look at all the flak that Bloomberg got in NY when he tried to reduce the size of soft drinks. Not a ban, not that you could not just get more smaller ones, not taking away your choice in anyway, except for how big a big gulp you can buy at one instant. The right went bonkers over this, so there you have it, a huge part of the population that is going to fight a lot of what will eventually change the culture.

There has to be a concerted effort to go after this industry that gets us all hooked as kids, and then becomes nearly impossible to fix later on as adults. I remember the first time I ever heard of someone stapling their stomachs, I though what a crazy thing to do. Now it is routine, and there are several versions of this out now. It can help the ones too far gone now, but we really need to concentrate all our resources on the upcoming generations. Start by not getting this 18 and under one not getting hooked in the first place.

SO take all your food stamp programs, SNAP, welfare, etc., and put some restrictions on them, tough ones. I think that SNAP already does that, but "every" single program needs to be on board. Someone has to make hard choices on what they can get, and that's that.

Next step is in the schools, needs to be a class that is ongoing at every grade on nutrition. This grand experiment of expecting the parents to do this has failed, we have to admit that part. Yours parents did right, bully for you, but the majority have spoken, they are not going to be responsible in this area. And hard to blame them entirely, they are getting no help from society at large when just about everything you see has some sort of corn syrup in it, or other empty calories.

We have to bring back physical education, and then double down on it from my day even. It has to be a priority like the 3 R's, maybe even more so.

Businesses have to start giving bonuses, or docking salaries if you are overweight or meeting benchmarks. It has to be in schools, workplaces, and the general population at large. SSI, medicare, private insurance, all should either feel more pain, or be spreading it around to hurt offenders more. It will have to be a phase in type of program in regards to the government stuff, but that is the timeline since so many are so fucked up already and mostly lost causes.

We will have to make laws too to force people to do the right thing. They will be tricky, but they can happen. We have to think like the Chinese, look down the road 5 generations from now and where we want to be and how best to get there..

Unfortunately I'm not very hopeful, just like all our gun deaths, it will be the price paid for perceived liberties. We will actually have to hit some rock bottom, then of course there will then be the overreaction, and then the backlash from that. Nothing seems to come easy to us anymore, just too many powerful interest invested in the status quo. At least my family and all my friends are ok in this regard, part of the perk of living in this community we all have gradated to. Go to the slow twitch Kona party some year, My 15lbs over race weight is about as obese as you are gonna see. Love handles actually have to be real handles in this group, it is our bubble of fitness we get to live in outside of the real world..
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [MidwestRoadie] [ In reply to ]
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MidwestRoadie wrote:
This blows me away -- even Colorado is at 21% obesity as the least-obese state in the country. That's a gross percentage for any state, ridiculous that it's the least obese. I knew it was getting worse, but had no perspective on exactly how bad it is.

But speaking of unhealthy -- I need your advice. I'll be in Milwaukee for my birthday weekend in a few weeks, going to an event with a group of friends & spending a couple of days there. What are some good restaurants for indulging? Nothing expensive, as the expensive meal will happen with my wife & I'll have friends who are on a tighter budget, but something that's good cuisine, not Panera, unique, and memorable. And is there a good bakery downtown? I'm going to have to have some cake at the ready.





Go to the safehouse bar. Trust me on this. Tell each person individually and privately what the pasaword is under oath that they wont tell anyone else. Make up something different for each person. Ill pm you the real password as a bday present.

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
Last edited by: veganerd: Mar 5, 18 17:25
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
The right went bonkers over this, so there you have it, a huge part of the population that is going to fight a lot of what will eventually change the culture.

Let's not forget how Michelle Obama's mission to get kids eating healthier resulted in all kinds of histrionics about "nanny states" and the like. You'd have been forgiven for thinking she'd suggested Soylent Green for school lunches.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [WelshinPhilly] [ In reply to ]
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Let's not forget how Michelle Obama's mission to get kids eating healthier resulted in all kinds of histrionics about "nanny states" ///



Ya that was even before Bloombergs super size ban. Would someone please explain(from the right) without the usual knuckel dragging rhetoric of everyone has a right to gorge til they literally kill themselves, what is the plan here, if any on that side for the epidemic we are now fully entrenched in???
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I would agree it is multi-factorial. The other day my two international students asked it we had any bikes they could ride around on once the weather got better so they could get around. Our mid sized town doesn't have public transport to speak of (Europe does pretty well everywhere). Anyway we had a few bikes like that until last summer thieves took them from the garage (the thieves are physically active around here lol).

In the end I said I don't think I will be replacing the bikes heck I don't even ride much outside around here. I think I am putting my life at risk when I do! How screwed up is that. Many subdivisions don't have sidewalks or anything worth walking to within reasonable distance.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
Very few people have a physically hard job any more.
---

I don't think that matters. Every time I drive by one of the traditionally more physical jobs (Ex: construction), there are an abundance of fatties working on the site. I had some roofers do some work and I was unrealistically concerned about the potential for infrastructure failure of my room. The anti-fat shaming cohort has done an excellent job!

Since we're on the topic, let's not forget the ability of pop-culture to influence the masses. How many shows are out there featuring obese men married to hotties? (/semi-pink)

I work in the trades. I think there are two types (not generalizing at all here...):

The older guard tend to be heavy drinking, smoking, non-athletic sloths. They are the fallout of a time when mainly people with no post secondary options went in to construction.

The younger generation are more active, are generally in to sports in their free time, and treat their trade as a legitimate career rather then something they got stuck in. They understand that they need to take care of their body if they want to not be a miserable prick past the age of 50. This is probably due to a local boom in trades that has been happening for the last 15 years here, and has attracted a lot of young, hard chargers in to the industry.

I honestly can't think of a single over weight tradesperson I know under the age of 40. A couple might be hefty (all electricians, coincidentally...) but no one close to obese. They just wouldn't be able to cut it. I don't see how I could hire a fat carpenter, there's no way they'd be very productive.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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How are their teeth? Trades people I deal with generally aren't obese but their diet seems to consist of massive amounts of sugar and energy drinks. Skips full of chocolate bar wrappers, doughnut boxes, empty cans of Monster and Red Bull, etc.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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I once worked with this old labour named Vern. Vern looked like he had been around when dinosaurs ruled the earth. Face like an old baseball mitt. He was probably 5'6", 130lbs soaking wet, and did hard labour his whole life. His daily diet, I shit you not, was a black coffee in the morning, two smokes and a Coke at lunch, no solid food until dinner, which was usually fast food picked up on the way home. Every. Single. Day. We used to joke that his body was too inhospitable for cancer to grow in and he'd probably live to 100.

He had the whitest, most perfect fucking teeth you've ever seen.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't it interesting that the most obese states always tend to vote Republican and did so for Trump in particular in the last election.

Ah we finally got to your money line.

_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
It's like the basic trueism that the key to the success of all diets is running calorie deficits. There's just no other way to make it work. One has to understand that basic idea first. Then they can drive on with the more complicated idea of how they want to achieve that calorie deficit.

The problem is that folks, in the context of fat loss, can't seem to quit talking about "what to eat". So the basic thermodynamics of the issue get lost in the noise.

You're mathematically correct. The problem is that the vast majority of people aren't going to calorie count, maintain a spreadsheet, etc. Certainly not on an ongoing basis. Even with the apps now available I find they're a real PITA - if you're only eating packaged food with a barcode you can scan in then it's easy enough, but if you cook at home a lot and/or eat out in restaurants (nice restaurants, not chains where their menu has been uploaded into MyFitnessPal...) you spend a lot of time either weighing and measuring your food, or guesstimating. Life is too short for me to weigh my food as well as preparing it, and most people suck at guesstimating. And cooking at home rather than eating snacks and ready meals with a barcode on is exactly what people should be doing more of.

So while the principle of calorie deficits is sound, it's not practical advice for most people in terms of the day to day choices they make with their food. There's also more to healthy eating than simply getting the right amount of calories. And realistically some foods like salad leaves and vegetables have low enough calorific density, and no sugar rush that encourages people to gorge themselves, that for all practical purposes you can tell people to eat as much as they want of those types of food and they're highly unlikely to run up a big calorie surplus. As long as they're not soaking them with salad dressing and butter of course...

For most people, eating more salad and vegetables, and cutting out or at least back on alcohol, processed sugar and meat, is going to lead to a calorie deficit simply because it's going to be harder for them to get in as many calories as they were before and they're not going to be feeling hungry all the time. And it's a much simpler set of rules to embed into daily life than getting out a calculator every time you want to eat.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
I once worked with this old labour named Vern. Vern looked like he had been around when dinosaurs ruled the earth. Face like an old baseball mitt. He was probably 5'6", 130lbs soaking wet, and did hard labour his whole life. His daily diet, I shit you not, was a black coffee in the morning, two smokes and a Coke at lunch, no solid food until dinner, which was usually fast food picked up on the way home. Every. Single. Day. We used to joke that his body was too inhospitable for cancer to grow in and he'd probably live to 100.

He had the whitest, most perfect fucking teeth you've ever seen.


The whole 3 meal a day thing is a modern invention. It isn't based on hard science. Like the food pyramid, breakfast is the most important meal or low fat eating.

The 2016 Nobel award was given to a Japanese science that studied autophagy. He discovered when cells are starved, they will break down damaged proteins and organelles. So fasting even for brief periods may actually improve health.
Last edited by: FishyJoe: Mar 6, 18 3:15
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
I once worked with this old labour named Vern. Vern looked like he had been around when dinosaurs ruled the earth. Face like an old baseball mitt. He was probably 5'6", 130lbs soaking wet, and did hard labour his whole life. His daily diet, I shit you not, was a black coffee in the morning, two smokes and a Coke at lunch, no solid food until dinner, which was usually fast food picked up on the way home. Every. Single. Day. We used to joke that his body was too inhospitable for cancer to grow in and he'd probably live to 100.

He had the whitest, most perfect fucking teeth you've ever seen.
One of my uncles is in this boat. He'll have a couple cups of coffee in the morning, an apple or half a bagel around lunch, then dinner, usually pasta. He's been a runner, went sub-3 hrs at Boston and was a good triathlete, when it's nice out he'll bike to and from work, 25 miles each way. I have no idea how he does it.

That said he's also 64 and has had some health issues. He also drinks like a fish so there's that too. But as someone who eats basically six smaller meals a day I'm always amazed at his diet.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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x3
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
The only way to solve the problem is to make it costly to be overweight or, to say it another way, to give people a financial incentive to stay thin. When an obese person pays the same health insurance premium as a skinny person, there’s zero incentive to lose weight.

x 2

See, there's always things people can agree on...

As if that would solve anything.

You've heard of Body Shaming, I would imagine. Add to that a financial penalty and watch how quickly that sizeable majority (what's the argument for effectively taxing only the obese and not the overweight?) burns the place down in protest.

And what about the underweight who suffer their own set of health consequences? Gain weight or pay more?

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Sanuk wrote:
The only way to solve the problem is to make it costly to be overweight or, to say it another way, to give people a financial incentive to stay thin. When an obese person pays the same health insurance premium as a skinny person, there’s zero incentive to lose weight.

x 2

See, there's always things people can agree on...


As if that would solve anything.

You've heard of Body Shaming, I would imagine. Add to that a financial penalty and watch how quickly that sizeable majority (what's the argument for effectively taxing only the obese and not the overweight?) burns the place down in protest.

And what about the underweight who suffer their own set of health consequences? Gain weight or pay more?

We love to focus on obesity because we can see it, but probably as important if not more so depending on what diseases you're considering is fitness level. But we can't see that so we largely ignore it.

It's entirely possible for a fit overweight/low end of obesity person to have lower disease risk than a lean out of shape person.

And the thing is it appears to be much less of a struggle for people to exercise (really all you need to do is walk briskly for 20-30 minutes a day to get the bulk of the health benefits from exercise) than it is to control their weight.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
sphere wrote:
Sanuk wrote:
The only way to solve the problem is to make it costly to be overweight or, to say it another way, to give people a financial incentive to stay thin. When an obese person pays the same health insurance premium as a skinny person, there’s zero incentive to lose weight.

x 2

See, there's always things people can agree on...


As if that would solve anything.

You've heard of Body Shaming, I would imagine. Add to that a financial penalty and watch how quickly that sizeable majority (what's the argument for effectively taxing only the obese and not the overweight?) burns the place down in protest.

And what about the underweight who suffer their own set of health consequences? Gain weight or pay more?


We love to focus on obesity because we can see it, but probably as important if not more so depending on what diseases you're considering is fitness level. But we can't see that so we largely ignore it.

It's entirely possible for a fit overweight/low end of obesity person to have lower disease risk than a lean out of shape person.

And the thing is it appears to be much less of a struggle for people to exercise (really all you need to do is walk briskly for 20-30 minutes a day to get the bulk of the health benefits from exercise) than it is to control their weight.

It may be possible for an obese person to be healthier than a non-obese person. But it's also possible for a smoker to be healthier than a non-smoker.

It's clear though, that as a whole, the healthcare costs of obese people are significantly higher than non-obese people. A lot higher.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [ChiTownJack] [ In reply to ]
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It’s already the new norm — just go to Disney world, a cruise, or Wisconsin


Last April my wife and I went to an All-Inclusive resort for the first time. I was taken aback (shocking actually) by how many over-weight and obese people were there. Ironically, the only reason we were staying there was that we were there as part of a group that was cycling for a week in the area - and it was a reasonably low cost place to stay.

It being an All-Inclusive resort, the food was available in plentiful fashion almost 24-7 - it was awesome for us refueling after daily 100km+ rides and staying on top of daily calorie demands, but it was, truly extraordinary to see already overweight and obese people plowing through crazy amounts of food - often more than what we were eating - and of course the ONLY activity they were doing was, walking the few 100m from their room to the buffet to the pool, and back each day! Wow!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Mar 6, 18 7:32
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I think a huge component of this is simply lack of education. Kids are being brought up by parents who have no idea what a normal healthy diet consists of. Nothing gets me more then seeing a fat kid chugging Gatorade after a brisk exertion effort, because, you know, sports and electrolytes, or ordering chicken nuggets instead of big Macs because chicken is better for you.

These kids don't stand a chance.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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It may be possible for an obese person to be healthier than a non-obese person. But it's also possible for a smoker to be healthier than a non-smoker.


Regarding the latter, it shows how potent physical activity is, when you have smokers who, although they smoke, still live a pretty active and rigorous life-style.

Put one of my Grand-Fathers in that category. He was a 2-pack a day smoker since his teenage years, yet lived to be 85. Worked in the type of jobs his whole life, where he was on his feet and moving most of the day. For the longest time he was a Delivery Truck driver. When not working, he always went for long walks each day and was active doing all kinds of other things.

Being more physically active (just walking more), has so much win-win in it, and is so easy, simple, low(no)-cost, and straight-forward for so many to do, yet, daily physical activity like this, has been on the decline for years! A HUGE number of people in North America now essentially have NO physical activity at all in their typical day - none!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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Nothing gets me more then seeing a fat kid chugging Gatorade after a brisk exertion effort, //

Really?? What gets me more than this is the 4 year old with a full can of coke, bag of potato chips, and a full bag of gummies, all being eaten and carried while playing at the parks. In both our cases the parents are ignorant of what is going on, but like I said, it is what the see and know. Why surprised that some mom gives his kid Gatorade after exercise, this has been shown to us as the "healthy" thing to do since I was coming into sports 4 decades ago.


I know a lot of people really want to put this all on the parents, but to me the lions share of blame is on society and the direction we have let it drift. When the surgeon general finally came out and said smoking was bad for you, millions of people quit smoking. We made laws to prohibit ads on TV, magazines, and especially targeting young people. And it has worked and is still working, as long as you don't hold that no one smokes anymore as the end game or measure of success.


I do see some movement but we are at the very early stages, so right about where smoking was in 1960 or so. And not very hopeful that this surgeon general is going to be the one to come out and say that corn syrup is as bad or worse for your health as smoking is. Perhaps the next administration...
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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We all can offer similar experiences of the "inert" and therefore "fat" camp versus the "active" and therefore "within weight" camp. Nothing warms my heart more than to see the outlier overweight person swimming, riding, jogging or just going for a walk. I make an attempt to compliment and encourage their activity. My guess is that they are a far better role model to the "inert/fat" camp than the fit. No judging as to why folks ended up fat, just applauding their efforts. My alternative to the money as the incentive philosophy..
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [gofigure] [ In reply to ]
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No judging as to why folks ended up fat, just applauding their efforts. My alternative to the money as the incentive philosophy..


I was at a conference recently and met one of the leading researchers and evangelists in the whole active life area in Canada. He was blunt with me in our brief discussion. Promotion/marketing has not worked. Government programs have not worked. In North America, essentially nothing has worked - more and more people live that completely as you said totally inert lifestyle - we continue to slide more, and rapidly more in the bad direction.

What to do - just as you have. This guy said, just influence those immediately around you - one-on-one, your family, those people in your circle of friends, and those you see making the effort. Encourage them, compliment them, applaud them, help them! That's all we can do!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Spiridon Louis] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Spiridon Louis wrote:
People are fat because it’s ok to be fat now. We have fat swim suit models now for Christ’s sake. It’s disgusting. You can’t “judge” anyone anymore. This is the result. “I love me just the way I am.” Well I think you’re a fat pig.

Most accurate thing ive read all day. It is expected to accept obesity regardless of how unhealthy it may be. Hell, we have categories in triathlon which specifically cater to overweight people so that they can compete on a "fairer" playing field (I get some exceptions for extremely tall people). Go to any facebook triathlon group and post the chart which shows height/weight/bmi and if you are under or over weight and literally everyone goes insane (I get that they aren't exact but come on). Instead of helping people lose weight we have been forced to accept obesity as something out of peoples control and enabled them to keep being obese.

2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Critical Mass (pun intended) in the struggle not yet reached. There is a cyclic nature to life, so the new new norm might just be leaner.
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [len] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You get the society you design for.


An extraordinary 62% of people living in the city cycle to work every day and the vast majority keep it up through cold and wet weather. “It’s not because it’s the healthy choice. It’s because it’s the easiest choice,” says Schjønning. “The city is designed for bikes and not cars.”


https://www.theguardian.com/...ts-secrets-happiness
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
We're putting too much emphasis on "education". In order for education to significantly help the obesity problem one must assume:

1) Obese people are unaware that eating 2x the calories they burn leads to being fat. In order for information to have value, it needs to be something you weren't aware of. How many obese people to we really figure have no idea that eating huge amounts of food and getting no exercise leads to being fat?

2) The new information will change behavior. Fat people make deliberate decisions every waking hours to eat too much and not get any exercise. People can talk all they want about what the "want" to do, but that's just noise. Their choices show us everything we need to know. The problem is one of values, motivation, incentives, and self-discipline. Simply telling someone that "if you eat too much you gain blubber" is weak-sauce in convincing folks to change their ways.

So, how to help....
Cultural changes that stigmatize excess blubber. For decades we've been trying to remove stigma from all sorts of things. Lets roll some of that back.
Allow medical insurance companies to do health and fitness tests on customers and then set rates based on likelihood of medical issues.

Re. taxes on sugary food/drinks. Attempting to be our nanny is government over-reach. But it's also over-reach to protect us from the consequences of our bad decisions by preventing insurance companies from taking lifestyle issues into account when setting rates. It's not reasonable for the government to force me to supplement the medical insurance of the fat guy in the next office.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fat people make deliberate decisions every waking hours to eat too much and not get any exercise. People can talk all they want about what the "want" to do, but that's just noise. //

You think this applies to kids too? Because this is where this problem starts, not when they are adults. If you dont attack the problem where it begins, then it is just a bandaid attempt at a problem that is pretty far gone at that point. This has to be a generational change, best to start with this latest generation that has a chance at success. For those that are already adults, well that is another category to attack, but in a different manner..
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Jim @ LOTO, MO] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jim @ LOTO, MO wrote:
Why should the millennials, or any other generation for that matter, care about their girth? If and when they get sick, the health insurance company will foot the bill. No insurance? Well, then Medicaid. No Medicaid? Open a GoFundMe page.

The only way to solve the problem is to make it costly to be overweight or, to say it another way, to give people a financial incentive to stay thin..
I think this poster only posts 1x/thread, so we won't hear back... but doesn't he also lean right?
Almost sounds like he's proposing... a tax??
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
Fat people make deliberate decisions every waking hours to eat too much and not get any exercise. People can talk all they want about what the "want" to do, but that's just noise. //

You think this applies to kids too? Because this is where this problem starts, not when they are adults. If you dont attack the problem where it begins, then it is just a bandaid attempt at a problem that is pretty far gone at that point. This has to be a generational change, best to start with this latest generation that has a chance at success. For those that are already adults, well that is another category to attack, but in a different manner..
Our 3 teenage boys have taught me that kids are highly resistant to learning.

Parents create the culture for the house. As the kids went thru gradeschool and junior high, there was always some fat kids in the classes. Pretty darn sad to see some little kid already carrying a bunch of blubber. Obviously the parent's fault. People are often, disappointing.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Pretty darn sad to see some little kid already carrying a bunch of blubber. Obviously the parent's fault. People are often, disappointing. //

Great for you and your kids, mine are fine too. But since most parents do not do the right thing, and much of society enables them, keeps them ignorant, and now actually condones this behavior, what do you suggest we do? I laid out a viable solution that begins at birth. You seem to just throw up your hands and want to put all the blame on the parents.


I liken this to a race course where a 1/3 of the people go off course. I dont blame the people, or that they should have known. One, two, maybe then it is an athlete knowledge issue, but 1/3 it is absolutely a race director issue, 100%. When we have 2/3 of our kids now obese or approaching that category, it is absolutely a societal issue, parent part is minor in my mind, otherwise how did we get so far off track on this issue??

Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RangerGress wrote:
monty wrote:
Fat people make deliberate decisions every waking hours to eat too much and not get any exercise. People can talk all they want about what the "want" to do, but that's just noise. //

You think this applies to kids too? Because this is where this problem starts, not when they are adults. If you dont attack the problem where it begins, then it is just a bandaid attempt at a problem that is pretty far gone at that point. This has to be a generational change, best to start with this latest generation that has a chance at success. For those that are already adults, well that is another category to attack, but in a different manner..

Our 3 teenage boys have taught me that kids are highly resistant to learning.

Parents create the culture for the house. As the kids went thru gradeschool and junior high, there was always some fat kids in the classes. Pretty darn sad to see some little kid already carrying a bunch of blubber. Obviously the parent's fault. People are often, disappointing.

The difference is "now" and "then". When I was in high school back in the late 1960's there were hardly any overweight kids in the school and those that were overweight, it was due to genuine physiological reasons. Now go to any high school and you see more overweight kids than normal weight. What ever happened to the "skinny high school kid" that was characteristic in my day. The shocking thing is that this has all happened in just two generations. In 1960 the average American man weighed 175 lbs and the average woman 130 lbs. Now they would be considered almost lightweights.
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Spiridon Louis] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Spiridon Louis wrote:
People are fat because it’s ok to be fat now. We have fat swim suit models now for Christ’s sake. It’s disgusting. You can’t “judge” anyone anymore. This is the result. “I love me just the way I am.” Well I think you’re a fat pig.

The hypocrisy in the Big is Beautiful movement has been apparent from day one. Body shaming and fat shaming are on par with racism in the pantheon of offenses that are now intolerable, though it's funny how body shaming doesn't seem to cover women who aren't just plus size versions of otherwise model material.

In other words, if you're fat in the wrong proportions (thick legs, small breasts, short and fat neck), or otherwise just unattractive by conventional measures, don't think for a second you're making it on a Lane Bryant billboard.

The only thing that's changed is that the Beautiful People have cracked the door slightly to allow in thicker versions of supermodels. How magnanimous of them.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
Parents create the culture for the house.

Absolutely. And even among well educated health conscious people, it takes an ongoing, deliberate effort to reinforce the food-as-fuel message. Mrs sphere was a scholarship athlete in track and field, marathon runner, triathlete, and holds an advance degree in a scientific field. She's not your average American, in most ways, and yet I have to police the house with regard to nutrition and activity, because junk food really is the new normal.

I see our neighbor's seven year old walking around with a blow-pop on the daily, despite having to be sedated for fillings on over half a dozen cavities. On average, I think most parents just don't get it, or don't think it's worth the struggle to feed kids things they should be eating.

That said, in our neighborhood, there's only one family with an obese child (Hispanic, it's epidemic in that group), out of at least fifteen I can think of, and maybe two that are overweight. Middle class suburban Virginia. I'm sure inner city DC would look a whole lot differently.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
Pretty darn sad to see some little kid already carrying a bunch of blubber. Obviously the parent's fault. People are often, disappointing. //

Great for you and your kids, mine are fine too. But since most parents do not do the right thing, and much of society enables them, keeps them ignorant, and now actually condones this behavior, what do you suggest we do? I laid out a viable solution that begins at birth. You seem to just throw up your hands and want to put all the blame on the parents.


I liken this to a race course where a 1/3 of the people go off course. I dont blame the people, or that they should have known. One, two, maybe then it is an athlete knowledge issue, but 1/3 it is absolutely a race director issue, 100%. When we have 2/3 of our kids now obese or approaching that category, it is absolutely a societal issue, parent part is minor in my mind, otherwise how did we get so far off track on this issue??
We are seeing human nature at work. We're learning that a challenging life and a network of social stigmas, in some ways, get more out of us than a life of comfort and low expectations. Strong people rise to challenges and use self discipline to stay away from socially stigmatized activities.

We've worked to reduce the stigma with being fat and "not-fit". We've reduced the consequences to the same. We've changed our parenting such that kids are not nearly as free to roam the neighborhoods and play outdoors. Instead we tend to keep them indoors for their "safety".

So lets bring back stigma by grassroots action. If you don't make your kid wear a seatbelt you're a "bad parent". How about we apply that to parents of fat kids too? Instead of adding obese types to ADA protections, lets do them a real favor with some tough love. Lets quit spreading the financial consequences of bad lifestyle decisions.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RangerGress wrote:
We're putting too much emphasis on "education". In order for education to significantly help the obesity problem one must assume:

1) Obese people are unaware that eating 2x the calories they burn leads to being fat. In order for information to have value, it needs to be something you weren't aware of. How many obese people to we really figure have no idea that eating huge amounts of food and getting no exercise leads to being fat?

2) The new information will change behavior. Fat people make deliberate decisions every waking hours to eat too much and not get any exercise. People can talk all they want about what the "want" to do, but that's just noise. Their choices show us everything we need to know. The problem is one of values, motivation, incentives, and self-discipline. Simply telling someone that "if you eat too much you gain blubber" is weak-sauce in convincing folks to change their ways.

So, how to help....
Cultural changes that stigmatize excess blubber. For decades we've been trying to remove stigma from all sorts of things. Lets roll some of that back.
Allow medical insurance companies to do health and fitness tests on customers and then set rates based on likelihood of medical issues.

Re. taxes on sugary food/drinks. Attempting to be our nanny is government over-reach. But it's also over-reach to protect us from the consequences of our bad decisions by preventing insurance companies from taking lifestyle issues into account when setting rates. It's not reasonable for the government to force me to supplement the medical insurance of the fat guy in the next office.

Yes and no on this... education is important as there are people out there who don't even know what a vegetable is, but I don't think it applies to most of us. I'm a large mammal and education is not my problem. I know what to eat, I've lost hundreds of pounds, I just struggle with eating the right thing and keeping the weight off. I don't know if it's an addiction or how it would be classified, but stigmatization or taxes aren't going to help me. What currently lit a fire under my ass was getting dropped on a hilly bike ride... unfortunately I don't think most of society would ever put themselves in such a situation so that's not the answer. I'm not sure what the answer is... but it's a combination of education and support, although to make either of those work people have to want to change and that will never happen if it's acceptable to be fat.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I dont see any of you talking about this yet, perhaps i missed it. We live in a time of easy access to food. More so than any time in history. Its easy to eat too much. Its not just a human problem. Its a pretty natural phenomenon in mammals. Have a dog or cat? Give them all the food they want and see what happens.

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [spookini] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeah, he thinks he mic drops it and leaves us speechless. In reality, what he's consistently doing is the forum equivalent of sharting himself and embarrassingly hiding in the corner afterward.




spookini wrote:
Jim @ LOTO, MO wrote:
Why should the millennials, or any other generation for that matter, care about their girth? If and when they get sick, the health insurance company will foot the bill. No insurance? Well, then Medicaid. No Medicaid? Open a GoFundMe page.

The only way to solve the problem is to make it costly to be overweight or, to say it another way, to give people a financial incentive to stay thin..

I think this poster only posts 1x/thread, so we won't hear back... but doesn't he also lean right?
Almost sounds like he's proposing... a tax??
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It's both simple and extremely complicated. Obviously simple because we know that eating a balanced diet of whole foods is key to keeping weight off, more effective than exercise from a weight loss standpoint, and that movement gets us the rest of the way there & provides overall strength.

Complicated in the fact that our shift from mostly locally sourced whole foods has shifted to a lot of packaged food and whole food ingredients that look nothing like it used to -- tomatoes from 2000 miles away that have only a hint of the nutrition they used to, lean meat from chickens that go from egg to butcher in ~35 days and are pumped full of growth-enhancing drugs to facilitate that, meat from animals whose diets changes the genetic structure of the meat we eat, preservatives, chemicals, gigantic portion sizes, people who don't know how to cook even if they have the time to. And then there's the fact that more families are now in a position where both parents work or a single parent home, so time isn't prioritized to cook in the way that it once was. We're more sedentary overall, which changes how we're metabolizing food. Individuals metabolize food differently, so the ballpark 2000 calorie recommendation may be far too much for many people right from the start, yet access to resting metabolic rate tests for individuals isn't exactly easy or affordable.

Despite all of that, it's still very possible to make changes for the vast majority of people...if they actually want to. God knows that I've yo-yo'd over the years, from stupidly underweight, to overweight, to crash dieting my way back to underweight, back to overweight when I hit my skinny goal, and finally adopting a healthy lifestyle, getting fit and thin, then semi-fat again when a lengthy period of stress hit, and now at a weight a few pounds heavier than when I raced, but with a more trim waste (28" in vanity-sized pants like Levis, 30" in true-sized pants), wearing smaller shirts, more muscular, more fit overall. And I still struggle to not overly indulge myself in my addiction to sweets, but have pretty damn good balance now to do varied strength & endurance workouts very regularly, plan out meals, still eat some food I really enjoy so I don't fall off the rails, and make health a high priority. But it took me a long while to really find and embrace the right balance, a discipline most people don't have or refuse to adopt. While a good chunk of this would be resolved with societal changes to our food structure and encouragement of more movement, the individual can always take ownership of their individuality...if they want to, and most don't.



sphere wrote:
Quote:
Parents create the culture for the house.


Absolutely. And even among well educated health conscious people, it takes an ongoing, deliberate effort to reinforce the food-as-fuel message. Mrs sphere was a scholarship athlete in track and field, marathon runner, triathlete, and holds an advance degree in a scientific field. She's not your average American, in most ways, and yet I have to police the house with regard to nutrition and activity, because junk food really is the new normal.

I see our neighbor's seven year old walking around with a blow-pop on the daily, despite having to be sedated for fillings on over half a dozen cavities. On average, I think most parents just don't get it, or don't think it's worth the struggle to feed kids things they should be eating.

That said, in our neighborhood, there's only one family with an obese child (Hispanic, it's epidemic in that group), out of at least fifteen I can think of, and maybe two that are overweight. Middle class suburban Virginia. I'm sure inner city DC would look a whole lot differently.
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Toefuzz wrote:

Yes and no on this... education is important as there are people out there who don't even know what a vegetable is, but I don't think it applies to most of us. I'm a large mammal and education is not my problem. I know what to eat, I've lost hundreds of pounds, I just struggle with eating the right thing and keeping the weight off. I don't know if it's an addiction or how it would be classified, but stigmatization or taxes aren't going to help me. What currently lit a fire under my ass was getting dropped on a hilly bike ride... unfortunately I don't think most of society would ever put themselves in such a situation so that's not the answer. I'm not sure what the answer is... but it's a combination of education and support, although to make either of those work people have to want to change and that will never happen if it's acceptable to be fat.
Not all people are "reachable". If someone, otherwise mentally healthy, has made it to adulthood unable to recognize a vegetable, then they should look in a mirror.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
Nothing gets me more then seeing a fat kid chugging Gatorade after a brisk exertion effort, //

Really?? What gets me more than this is the 4 year old with a full can of coke, bag of potato chips, and a full bag of gummies, all being eaten and carried while playing at the parks. In both our cases the parents are ignorant of what is going on, but like I said, it is what the see and know. Why surprised that some mom gives his kid Gatorade after exercise, this has been shown to us as the "healthy" thing to do since I was coming into sports 4 decades ago.

I understand what you are saying, but, let's look at now and when I was a kid. When I was a kid, we never, ever received a soft drink. But, we drank Kool Aid like crazy.

A 12 oz can of Coke has 39 grams of sugar. A 12 oz can of Pepsi has 41 grams of sugar. A 12 oz glass of Kool Aid (made from a packet with your own sugar) has 37.5 oz of sugar.

I figured it would be a lot less, but, it isn't. Now, granted, we drank water when we exercised. We also did not have Starbucks. But, I was a bit surprised when looking at Kool Aid. We drank a lot of Kool Aid.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sphere wrote:
Quote:
Parents create the culture for the house.


Absolutely. And even among well educated health conscious people, it takes an ongoing, deliberate effort to reinforce the food-as-fuel message. Mrs sphere was a scholarship athlete in track and field, marathon runner, triathlete, and holds an advance degree in a scientific field. She's not your average American, in most ways, and yet I have to police the house with regard to nutrition and activity, because junk food really is the new normal.

I see our neighbor's seven year old walking around with a blow-pop on the daily, despite having to be sedated for fillings on over half a dozen cavities. On average, I think most parents just don't get it, or don't think it's worth the struggle to feed kids things they should be eating.

That said, in our neighborhood, there's only one family with an obese child (Hispanic, it's epidemic in that group), out of at least fifteen I can think of, and maybe two that are overweight. Middle class suburban Virginia. I'm sure inner city DC would look a whole lot differently.

Whoa! HOLD on there tiger! Haven't you heard? Parents should NOT be talking to their kids about diet ...

"Diet," it seems, could be another four-letter-word you shouldn't say to your teen.

Parents who encourage their teens to diet could negatively impact their child's weight-related and emotional health for years to come, according to a study published Tuesday in the journal Pediatrics.

"Experiencing parent encouragement to diet as an adolescent was significantly associated with a higher risk of overweight or obesity, dieting, binge eating, engaging in unhealthy weight control behaviors, and lower body satisfaction 15 years later as a parent," the study, which followed 556 teens whose parents encouraged dieting over a 15-year period, stated.

https://www.yahoo.com/...c-news-wellness.html


I would like to know how they define "diet." Is teaching proper proportions considered "dieting?" That is what Weight Watchers and other programs do.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Key components to this problem:

1.) Food is cheaper and more abundant than ever
2.) Calorie dense food is easier and tastier than unprocessed food
3.) Historically, there have been conflicting recommendations about what to eat and why
4.) Unsupervised outside child activity is now considered parental neglect

Also:

5.) There are no weight loss strategies that ultimately translate into a high probability of permanent weight loss.
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If they would just eat a proper diet they wouldn't have to diet. Easy enough.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [SH] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SH wrote:
Key components to this problem:

1.) Food is cheaper and more abundant than ever
2.) Calorie dense food is easier and tastier than unprocessed food
3.) Historically, there have been conflicting recommendations about what to eat and why
4.) Unsupervised outside child activity is now considered parental neglect

Also:

5.) There are no weight loss strategies that ultimately translate into a high probability of permanent weight loss.

i'd add in a couple of others:

6) PhysEd and recess are disappearing from schools
7) Basic urban infrastructure that facilities mobility (sidewalks, parks, paths) are disappearing. I'm often struck, when I'm in the USA, by how hard it is to walk from A to B.

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
iron_mike wrote:
SH wrote:
Key components to this problem:

1.) Food is cheaper and more abundant than ever
2.) Calorie dense food is easier and tastier than unprocessed food
3.) Historically, there have been conflicting recommendations about what to eat and why
4.) Unsupervised outside child activity is now considered parental neglect

Also:

5.) There are no weight loss strategies that ultimately translate into a high probability of permanent weight loss.


i'd add in a couple of others:

6) PhysEd and recess are disappearing from schools
7) Basic urban infrastructure that facilities mobility (sidewalks, parks, paths) are disappearing. I'm often struck, when I'm in the USA, by how hard it is to walk from A to B.

Where the hell are you visiting? I travel all over the US for work. Most often, it is to a big city. I walk most of the time from hotel to court to food to client to meeting to etc.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tri-Banter wrote:
Very few people have a physically hard job any more.
---

I don't think that matters. Every time I drive by one of the traditionally more physical jobs (Ex: construction), there are an abundance of fatties working on the site. I had some roofers do some work and I was unrealistically concerned about the potential for infrastructure failure of my room. The anti-fat shaming cohort has done an excellent job!

Since we're on the topic, let's not forget the ability of pop-culture to influence the masses. How many shows are out there featuring obese men married to hotties? (/semi-pink)

Less and less. Now they are both fat....
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JSA wrote:
iron_mike wrote:
SH wrote:
Key components to this problem:

1.) Food is cheaper and more abundant than ever
2.) Calorie dense food is easier and tastier than unprocessed food
3.) Historically, there have been conflicting recommendations about what to eat and why
4.) Unsupervised outside child activity is now considered parental neglect

Also:

5.) There are no weight loss strategies that ultimately translate into a high probability of permanent weight loss.


i'd add in a couple of others:

6) PhysEd and recess are disappearing from schools
7) Basic urban infrastructure that facilities mobility (sidewalks, parks, paths) are disappearing. I'm often struck, when I'm in the USA, by how hard it is to walk from A to B.


Where the hell are you visiting? I travel all over the US for work. Most often, it is to a big city. I walk most of the time from hotel to court to food to client to meeting to etc.

Dude, there's a Panera on almost every block in the city. You're walking like 1/2 mile tops.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [ChiTownJack] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ChiTownJack wrote:
It’s already the new norm — just go to Disney world, a cruise, or Wisconsin

I'm surprised about the cruise. Never done one, but that surprised me.

It doesn't help that their could be snow tomorrow here and the YMCA is already closed for tomorrow as is one of the local "bike/training" centers. WTF - its sunny out right now. Per the weather channel. 100% chance of snow starts at 11:00AM tomorrow.....
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
iron_mike wrote:
SH wrote:
Key components to this problem:

1.) Food is cheaper and more abundant than ever
2.) Calorie dense food is easier and tastier than unprocessed food
3.) Historically, there have been conflicting recommendations about what to eat and why
4.) Unsupervised outside child activity is now considered parental neglect

Also:

5.) There are no weight loss strategies that ultimately translate into a high probability of permanent weight loss.

i'd add in a couple of others:

6) PhysEd and recess are disappearing from schools
7) Basic urban infrastructure that facilities mobility (sidewalks, parks, paths) are disappearing. I'm often struck, when I'm in the USA, by how hard it is to walk from A to B.

Number 7) seems super important to me.

It seems that in most of the western cities it is only homeless, athletes and rich liberals that move anywhere by foot or bicycle.

A person needs money, and needs to specifically decide that non-motorized movement is important to them OR otherwise they will be stuck driving everywhere, all the time.

My office is in a very wealthy suburban location- no sidewalks, parks, or pools within 5 miles.
I try to walk places sometimes.
All the rich people leer at my from their BMWs’
“Why is that homeless person here? Why is he dressed in office clothes?
What a freak!”

It is no different in the suburban middle class and working class neighborhoods.

It is only in the rich urban enclaves that walking somewhere is a reasonable option.
Quote Reply
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sphere wrote:
JSA wrote:

Where the hell are you visiting? I travel all over the US for work. Most often, it is to a big city. I walk most of the time from hotel to court to food to client to meeting to etc.


Dude, there's a Panera modern legal office on almost every block in the city. You're walking like 1/2 mile tops.

Fixed it for you.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Quote:
Parents create the culture for the house.


Absolutely. And even among well educated health conscious people, it takes an ongoing, deliberate effort to reinforce the food-as-fuel message.

My two kids have vastly different appetites and always have. My son is overweight, maybe even obese, my daughter is pretty lean although no that she's hit puberty she's not as lean as she was.

My wife has hounded my son forever about his eating, probably has given him issues, hard to say if it has done any good.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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FishyJoe wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
sphere wrote:
Sanuk wrote:
The only way to solve the problem is to make it costly to be overweight or, to say it another way, to give people a financial incentive to stay thin. When an obese person pays the same health insurance premium as a skinny person, there’s zero incentive to lose weight.

x 2

See, there's always things people can agree on...


As if that would solve anything.

You've heard of Body Shaming, I would imagine. Add to that a financial penalty and watch how quickly that sizeable majority (what's the argument for effectively taxing only the obese and not the overweight?) burns the place down in protest.

And what about the underweight who suffer their own set of health consequences? Gain weight or pay more?


We love to focus on obesity because we can see it, but probably as important if not more so depending on what diseases you're considering is fitness level. But we can't see that so we largely ignore it.

It's entirely possible for a fit overweight/low end of obesity person to have lower disease risk than a lean out of shape person.

And the thing is it appears to be much less of a struggle for people to exercise (really all you need to do is walk briskly for 20-30 minutes a day to get the bulk of the health benefits from exercise) than it is to control their weight.


It may be possible for an obese person to be healthier than a non-obese person. But it's also possible for a smoker to be healthier than a non-smoker.

It's clear though, that as a whole, the healthcare costs of obese people are significantly higher than non-obese people. A lot higher.

No doubt, my point was that we place excessive emphasis on the thing that is very hard to achieve. Long term success rates for weight loss are abysmal, somewhere around 10-20%. It appears to be an extremely hard thing for people to achieve. On the other hand, moderate amounts of physical activity benefits everyone and can offset many of the health risks of obesity (and help with weight control).
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:

My two kids have vastly different appetites and always have. My son is overweight, maybe even obese, my daughter is pretty lean although no that she's hit puberty she's not as lean as she was.

My wife has hounded my son forever about his eating, probably has given him issues, hard to say if it has done any good.


My two cats are like that. Brothers form the same litter. One is naturally slender and athletic and never eats more than he needs, and never gets anxious about meals.

The other will eat until obese if you let him, and starts to become a completely unbearable mess about an hour before scheduled meal time.

We have to use elaborate schemes of locking the 2nd cat in a room with his own "diet bowl" during meal times. Which causes other problems because he *knows* what's going on, and that his brother gets an all-you-can-eat smorgasbord.

I've lectured this 2nd cat about "food as fuel" and "calories in / calories out" a million times, but he pretty much tells me to go fuck myself.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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No doubt, my point was that we place excessive emphasis on the thing that is very hard to achieve. Long term success rates for weight loss are abysmal, somewhere around 10-20%. It appears to be an extremely hard thing for people to achieve. On the other hand, moderate amounts of physical activity benefits everyone and can offset many of the health risks of obesity (and help with weight control).


More general daily physical activity, is ALWAYS a better thing. Even heavier, overweight and even obese people and smokers, who have high levels of daily physical activity test overall healthier than those who are inert and have little to no daily activity.

Longitudinal studies of people who own dogs and thus, have at least 30 minutes or more of walking a/day as a built in part of their day, every day, test healthier than the average population.

However, as noted, we are drifting quickly in the wrong direction here, more and more people are now completely inert and have almost zero physical activities in their days - and few things will change that.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:


My two kids have vastly different appetites and always have. My son is overweight, maybe even obese, my daughter is pretty lean although no that she's hit puberty she's not as lean as she was.

My wife has hounded my son forever about his eating, probably has given him issues, hard to say if it has done any good.



My two cats are like that. Brothers form the same litter. One is naturally slender and athletic and never eats more than he needs, and never gets anxious about meals.

The other will eat until obese if you let him, and starts to become a completely unbearable mess about an hour before scheduled meal time.

We have to use elaborate schemes of locking the 2nd cat in a room with his own "diet bowl" during meal times. Which causes other problems because he *knows* what's going on, and that his brother gets an all-you-can-eat smorgasbord.

I've lectured this 2nd cat about "food as fuel" and "calories in / calories out" a million times, but he pretty much tells me to go fuck myself.

It really is night and day. My son has always been overly concerned with food and how much he gets. It is on his mind all the time, etc. My daughter often brings home her lunch from school uneaten because whatever social stuff was going on was more interesting than eating. And these are two kids who were raised in the same environment.

Also my son is probably considerably more active than my daughter. Both play sports, but my son does more including track where he both distance runs and throws shot put. When a sport isn't going on, he's been going to a crossfit like gym and running on his own.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
However, as noted, we are drifting quickly in the wrong direction here, more and more people are now completely inert and have almost zero physical activities in their days - and few things will change that.

I'm no expert in the field, and I'm in the process of getting back down to my ideal weight presently, but I think it's pretty clear that what's required is a total lifestyle change, a change of mindset about what purpose food serves and how exercise should be a non-negotiable part of everyday life.

People will always struggle with weight. We're genetically predisposed to packing on fat for survival. But I'm convinced 95%+ could maintain weight and general health by flipping that switch from "try" to "do" and never looking back.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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iron_mike wrote:
7) Basic urban infrastructure that facilities mobility (sidewalks, parks, paths) are disappearing. I'm often struck, when I'm in the USA, by how hard it is to walk from A to B.

When we lived in Greenville, NC we were in an older development on the edge of town. To get into town either required taking a narrow winding ride with no shoulders that was swamped by developments now, so lots of traffic or a main road that was five lanes (two each way with a center turning lane). The outer lane was built right up to people's front yards with no shoulders and wide storm drainage grates that if you tried to ride into town forced you to pull out into the flow traffic to avoid. It was literally taking your life into your hands to ride on either road. Nor were there sidewalks, so you had to walk through front yards if you wanted to walk somewhere.

You were pretty much forced to drive, even if you wanted to deal with the heat/humidity to get somewhere.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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I'm no expert in the field, and I'm in the process of getting back down to my ideal weight presently, but I think it's pretty clear that what's required is a total lifestyle change, a change of mindset about what purpose food serves and how exercise should be a non-negotiable part of everyday life.

People will always struggle with weight. We're genetically predisposed to packing on fat for survival. But I'm convinced 95%+ could maintain weight and general health by flipping that switch from "try" to "do" and never looking back.


The default excuses always come out "It's in my genes" etc . . yes there are a few condition where people do put on weight more than average, but I emphasize FEW! The human body was meant to move, and move daily - walking, running, doing manual labour types of things. But it most people's lives in North America - there is ZERO of this in mots people's lives.

Massive improvements would be made in the overall health of North Americans just by adding a daily 30 - 60 minute walk at a brisk pace. Full-stop! But you will find ALL KINDS of resistance to this.

I live in one of those classic, suburban areas in North America in a far outer suburb of Toronto. I work from home, and I can see the daily ebb and flow on our street. Many are up before dark, go to their cars, leave and return close or after dark park the car and walk back into the house. Never to be seen again until the next morning when they repeat it all over. I never see them out and about on weekends. There are people on my street who live literally a few doors away, I've NEVER, EVER seen just out of the house and walking. This is the life-style of millions of North Americans!!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Mar 7, 18 8:06
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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We need an effective physical activity campaign on par with the anti-littering and anti-smoking campaigns that markedly changed behavior.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I remember when I went to school, even elementary, all the kids either walked or biked to school without their parents. The only kids that got a ride were sick or just happened to be headed in the same direction as their parents going to work.

Today at the very same school, there is a huge line of cars every morning and afternoon, picking up and dropping off kids. The thing that seems crazy to me is that the line of cars causes a huge wait. Most kids probably could have gotten to school faster walking or biking.

The streets are all the same with plenty of sidewalks and bike lanes. Maybe a bit more traffic, but not crazy amounts.

It seems like child abuse these days if kids do things by themselves these days.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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FishyJoe wrote:
I remember when I went to school, even elementary, all the kids either walked or biked to school without their parents. The only kids that got a ride were sick or just happened to be headed in the same direction as their parents going to work.

Today at the very same school, there is a huge line of cars every morning and afternoon, picking up and dropping off kids. The thing that seems crazy to me is that the line of cars causes a huge wait. Most kids probably could have gotten to school faster walking or biking.

The streets are all the same with plenty of sidewalks and bike lanes. Maybe a bit more traffic, but not crazy amounts.

It seems like child abuse these days if kids do things by themselves these days.

We live about a mile from the town schools, literally a straight shot on Main St. but the kids are in the habit of being driven. My wife drives them on her way to work and it seems like many if not most days there is some reason for me to pick them up. If I'm available but unwilling to get them, my daughter acts like she's being forced on the Bataan death march. Usually rather than walk home she will just go to friend's house.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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Today at the very same school, there is a huge line of cars every morning and afternoon, picking up and dropping off kids. The thing that seems crazy to me is that the line of cars causes a huge wait. Most kids probably could have gotten to school faster walking or biking.



There's a large public school about 800m to 1K from our house. We can actually see it from the bedroom window of our house. I know kids that are on the street that get driven there every day!

The pattern of that inert lifestyle, starts early!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
Today at the very same school, there is a huge line of cars every morning and afternoon, picking up and dropping off kids. The thing that seems crazy to me is that the line of cars causes a huge wait. Most kids probably could have gotten to school faster walking or biking.



There's a large public school about 800m to 1K from our house. We can actually see it from the bedroom window of our house. I know kids that are on the street that get driven there every day!

The pattern of that inert lifestyle, starts early!

That, and buses picking kids up at the end of their driveways.. WTF? I drive through some of the wealthiest suburbs of Philly on my commute and I often see parents waiting with their kids at the end of their driveways.. in their cars, and not just in crappy weather.

("When I were a lad we'd walk both ways uphill in the snow" time..) we used to have to walk to one of 3 or 4 bus stops in our village, and if you missed the bus you were walking the 1.5-ish miles to school, and hardly ever took the bus home. By the final year of HS we were walking both ways regardless of missing it, or weather.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
Very few people have a physically hard job any more.
---

I don't think that matters. Every time I drive by one of the traditionally more physical jobs (Ex: construction), there are an abundance of fatties working on the site. I had some roofers do some work and I was unrealistically concerned about the potential for infrastructure failure of my room. The anti-fat shaming cohort has done an excellent job!

Since we're on the topic, let's not forget the ability of pop-culture to influence the masses. How many shows are out there featuring obese men married to hotties? (/semi-pink)

I work in the trades. I think there are two types (not generalizing at all here...):

The older guard tend to be heavy drinking, smoking, non-athletic sloths. They are the fallout of a time when mainly people with no post secondary options went in to construction.

The younger generation are more active, are generally in to sports in their free time, and treat their trade as a legitimate career rather then something they got stuck in. They understand that they need to take care of their body if they want to not be a miserable prick past the age of 50. This is probably due to a local boom in trades that has been happening for the last 15 years here, and has attracted a lot of young, hard chargers in to the industry.

I honestly can't think of a single over weight tradesperson I know under the age of 40. A couple might be hefty (all electricians, coincidentally...) but no one close to obese. They just wouldn't be able to cut it. I don't see how I could hire a fat carpenter, there's no way they'd be very productive.

You are probably right. Lots of infill projects in my hood for the past decade and almost every single carpenter,roofer etc is lean. Now the road crews on the other hand...dozen fat dudes leaning on shovels and rakes watching the machines do all the work:)
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
Very few people have a physically hard job any more.
---

I don't think that matters. Every time I drive by one of the traditionally more physical jobs (Ex: construction), there are an abundance of fatties working on the site. I had some roofers do some work and I was unrealistically concerned about the potential for infrastructure failure of my room. The anti-fat shaming cohort has done an excellent job!

Since we're on the topic, let's not forget the ability of pop-culture to influence the masses. How many shows are out there featuring obese men married to hotties? (/semi-pink)


I work in the trades. I think there are two types (not generalizing at all here...):

The older guard tend to be heavy drinking, smoking, non-athletic sloths. They are the fallout of a time when mainly people with no post secondary options went in to construction.

The younger generation are more active, are generally in to sports in their free time, and treat their trade as a legitimate career rather then something they got stuck in. They understand that they need to take care of their body if they want to not be a miserable prick past the age of 50. This is probably due to a local boom in trades that has been happening for the last 15 years here, and has attracted a lot of young, hard chargers in to the industry.

I honestly can't think of a single over weight tradesperson I know under the age of 40. A couple might be hefty (all electricians, coincidentally...) but no one close to obese. They just wouldn't be able to cut it. I don't see how I could hire a fat carpenter, there's no way they'd be very productive.

That used to be the same with factory workers when manufacturing was done by humans. You never used to see many fat auto workers until automation started coming in. Most people just don't do physical work any more in most occupations.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
We need an effective physical activity campaign on par with the anti-littering and anti-smoking campaigns that markedly changed behavior.

This is definitely part of the problem. Physical activity is viewed as leisure time, rather than as a daily requirement. As such, it's easy to make excuses for missing it.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Physical activity is viewed as leisure time, rather than as a daily requirement.

I recently signed up my 3rd grader for Fitness Club, a group that meets for 45 minutes before school, twice a week, for eight weeks, that culminates in a 5k fun run along with other challenges along the way. He's currently doing Taekwondo 3 times per week at the neighborhood dojang, and just started an after school martial arts club, meets once per week for an hour, that focuses largely on BJJ. He has physical education class every third school day on rotation.

Total time on the average week is 6 hours of designated physical activity. Very little outdoor exercise otherwise, especially in the winter months. He easily doubles that time in combined TV and video game time weekly, yet my wife thinks he's overdoing it, that I'm pushing him too hard (he was iffy on the fitness club but all in on the others).

I think we've had our sense of what a healthy lifestyle entails so warped by our own sedentary lifestyles that we don't know what normal looks like anymore.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Quote:
Physical activity is viewed as leisure time, rather than as a daily requirement.


I recently signed up my 3rd grader for Fitness Club, a group that meets for 45 minutes before school, twice a week, for eight weeks, that culminates in a 5k fun run along with other challenges along the way. He's currently doing Taekwondo 3 times per week at the neighborhood dojang, and just started an after school martial arts club, meets once per week for an hour, that focuses largely on BJJ. He has physical education class every third school day on rotation.

Total time on the average week is 6 hours of designated physical activity. Very little outdoor exercise otherwise, especially in the winter months. He easily doubles that time in combined TV and video game time weekly, yet my wife thinks he's overdoing it, that I'm pushing him too hard (he was iffy on the fitness club but all in on the others).

I think we've had our sense of what a healthy lifestyle entails so warped by our own sedentary lifestyles that we don't know what normal looks like anymore.

How many schools have gotten rid of mandatory gym class/physical education? We've impressed on everyone that ability to perform arithmetic or memorize historical dates or answer work emails is vital, and maintaining physical fitness is a luxury.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Two pages of talk about physical activity and kids doing more walking is somewhat ironic on a triathlon board where one can view plenty of fat age groupers at any given race. Is physical activity important? Yes. Is it the most important? No. Weight is 70-80% about what you put in your face, the rest is about physical activity.

There is no way to outwork a bad diet, ain't gonna happen. I lost 20lbs last winter by stopping exercise and strictly watching my calories. I did a full IM with that extra 20lbs on me, it was only when I addressed diet that it made a difference. Same thing now, I crossfit 5-6 days per week, but the only way to stay lean is to watch my eating religiously.

There are plenty of rolly polly fat kids in my neighborhood, the reason I know there are plenty of fat kids is because they are riding, scootering, and running around the culdesac all the damn time. Then they go home and their irresponsible parents fill em full of shite so they are fat.

A campaign to get people to walk for 30-60 minutes per day is not going to hurt anyone, but it won't do much to combat obesity.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [A-A-Ron] [ In reply to ]
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A-A-Ron wrote:

Two pages of talk about physical activity and kids doing more walking is somewhat ironic on a triathlon board where one can view plenty of fat age groupers at any given race. Is physical activity important? Yes. Is it the most important? No. Weight is 70-80% about what you put in your face, the rest is about physical activity.

There is no way to outwork a bad diet, ain't gonna happen. I lost 20lbs last winter by stopping exercise and strictly watching my calories. I did a full IM with that extra 20lbs on me, it was only when I addressed diet that it made a difference. Same thing now, I crossfit 5-6 days per week, but the only way to stay lean is to watch my eating religiously.

There are plenty of rolly polly fat kids in my neighborhood, the reason I know there are plenty of fat kids is because they are riding, scootering, and running around the culdesac all the damn time. Then they go home and their irresponsible parents fill em full of shite so they are fat.

A campaign to get people to walk for 30-60 minutes per day is not going to hurt anyone, but it won't do much to combat obesity.
This is the kind of thinking I mean when I say that it's necessary to maintain a drumbeat to keep people focused on the underlying reality of thermodynamics when it comes to weightloss. If you give people an opportunity to imagine that "it's not so much how much you eat, but what you eat" they swan off into error.

I'm not saying "what you eat is irrelevant". I'm saying that humans are quick to imagine that the thermodynamics don't apply to people gaining/losing fat. The consequence of that is a reduced emphasis on the 2 most critical pieces of weight loss....consuming fewer calories and burning more.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [A-A-Ron] [ In reply to ]
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Best response by far. All the "we used to play outside so much" responses neglect the spoon.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
A-A-Ron wrote:

Two pages of talk about physical activity and kids doing more walking is somewhat ironic on a triathlon board where one can view plenty of fat age groupers at any given race. Is physical activity important? Yes. Is it the most important? No. Weight is 70-80% about what you put in your face, the rest is about physical activity.

There is no way to outwork a bad diet, ain't gonna happen. I lost 20lbs last winter by stopping exercise and strictly watching my calories. I did a full IM with that extra 20lbs on me, it was only when I addressed diet that it made a difference. Same thing now, I crossfit 5-6 days per week, but the only way to stay lean is to watch my eating religiously.

There are plenty of rolly polly fat kids in my neighborhood, the reason I know there are plenty of fat kids is because they are riding, scootering, and running around the culdesac all the damn time. Then they go home and their irresponsible parents fill em full of shite so they are fat.

A campaign to get people to walk for 30-60 minutes per day is not going to hurt anyone, but it won't do much to combat obesity.

This is the kind of thinking I mean when I say that it's necessary to maintain a drumbeat to keep people focused on the underlying reality of thermodynamics when it comes to weightloss. If you give people an opportunity to imagine that "it's not so much how much you eat, but what you eat" they swan off into error.

I'm not saying "what you eat is irrelevant". I'm saying that humans are quick to imagine that the thermodynamics don't apply to people gaining/losing fat. The consequence of that is a reduced emphasis on the 2 most critical pieces of weight loss....consuming fewer calories and burning more.

I agree with your assessment on the thermodynamics of the situation. Which is something I have been experimenting with for the last year or so and have basically done it both ways at this point. Like I said, last winter I quit riding, or really any exercise other than dog walking in an attempt to lose weight. I kept my calories under 1,500 each day, and when I felt okay I would add a ride in that burned 300-400 calories and I would not replace those calories. I didn't watch what I ate, just the calorie content. Sometimes that meant I had a beer for dinner if I really wanted a beer. The few workouts I did sucked cause I didn't have much energy, but calorie burn was the goal so it worked out. Went from 190 to 170 then was able to ramp up riding again at the weight I wanted to be.

This winter has been a bit different. Started crossfit and immediately began gaining weight, cut the food back again to try to keep my weight down but I found I couldn't get the workouts done due to lack of energy and I wasn't building muscle so not progressing in the workouts. My coach gave me an eating plan at 2,500 calories per day. I felt like I was stuffing the entire world into my face at first, but over time my body adapted and no I am hungry even at the 2,500 calories, but am also gaining muscle and losing fat. All clean foods of course but no crazy carb cutting or cutting out categories of food.

So yes, a person can lose fat while eating 1,500 or while eating 2,500, it just depends on how and what the person is eating which is where I think people get into trouble and where the arguments come from. I am in better shape and have more energy at the 2,500, but I have to be careful to only eat clean food and I am working out a lot. I could continue to lost fat by going back down to 1,500 and not watch my eating as closely, but energy is gonna suck. Kind of a hard nut to crack, but yeah, at the end of the day the story is the same, less in than out will lead to fat loss.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [JacobB1111] [ In reply to ]
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Reading through, I don't see it being neglected at all. It's just that the issues of obesity, diet, fitness, and vitality are so inextricably linked, particularly in childhood, that discussion of one aspect doesn't adequately address the problem.

Convincing kids of the food-as-fuel mindset is hard as hell, though. I don't know many parents who don't struggle with it.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Last edited by: spudone: Mar 8, 18 12:07
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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spudone wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
A-A-Ron wrote:

Two pages of talk about physical activity and kids doing more walking is somewhat ironic on a triathlon board where one can view plenty of fat age groupers at any given race. Is physical activity important? Yes. Is it the most important? No. Weight is 70-80% about what you put in your face, the rest is about physical activity.

There is no way to outwork a bad diet, ain't gonna happen. I lost 20lbs last winter by stopping exercise and strictly watching my calories. I did a full IM with that extra 20lbs on me, it was only when I addressed diet that it made a difference. Same thing now, I crossfit 5-6 days per week, but the only way to stay lean is to watch my eating religiously.

There are plenty of rolly polly fat kids in my neighborhood, the reason I know there are plenty of fat kids is because they are riding, scootering, and running around the culdesac all the damn time. Then they go home and their irresponsible parents fill em full of shite so they are fat.

A campaign to get people to walk for 30-60 minutes per day is not going to hurt anyone, but it won't do much to combat obesity.

This is the kind of thinking I mean when I say that it's necessary to maintain a drumbeat to keep people focused on the underlying reality of thermodynamics when it comes to weightloss. If you give people an opportunity to imagine that "it's not so much how much you eat, but what you eat" they swan off into error.

I'm not saying "what you eat is irrelevant". I'm saying that humans are quick to imagine that the thermodynamics don't apply to people gaining/losing fat. The consequence of that is a reduced emphasis on the 2 most critical pieces of weight loss....consuming fewer calories and burning more.

The point you are avoiding or missing - is that *what* people eat affects hunger levels. That, in turn, governs how many calories people eat (the thermodynamics, if you prefer). I'm talking about general trends over a large population. Sure, there are some folks who can count calories and eat nothing but junk food and lose weight. There was a thread with that exact experiment on the tri forum not too long ago.

But generally speaking:

- humans are are lazy and tend to follow the path of least resistance
- willpower is a finite resource

If we make it easier to drive through than to make your own food, some people will do it. If it's easy to pound down 1500 calories in a sitting - e.g. big mac / supersize fries / coke - then people will do it. Once again I'm talking about general trends across society, not individual outliers.



Portion size is a huge part of it.
Whenever I go to the US, I'm always blown away by how cheap ridiculously large portions of food are. It's really noticable.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Convincing kids of the food-as-fuel mindset is hard as hell, though. I don't know many parents who don't struggle with it.

Even if parents do manage to figure it out, they get undermined by the food-as-reward mindset created in kids' minds by stupid external shit that's hard to control without coming off as the asshole parent, like birthday cupcakes in school or pizza parties to reward a class for reading drives.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [WelshinPhilly] [ In reply to ]
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No doubt. I was raised in a fairly strict home, as it pertained to food. No sugar cereals, very limited access to snacks that didn't come directly from the ground. Fortunately it stuck through adulthood. But I'm far outside the norm today.

Two or three times per week, someone will bring food for the group to our ICU break room. Donuts, pizza, and cakes. Without exception. No one ever thinks to order healthy food. And this is in a place occupied entirely by adults, caring for critically ill people suffering largely from lifestyle-related illness. Granted, they're not serving up Marlboros and Jim Beam, but still. It's ever present, even among people who know better.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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spudone wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
A-A-Ron wrote:

Two pages of talk about physical activity and kids doing more walking is somewhat ironic on a triathlon board where one can view plenty of fat age groupers at any given race. Is physical activity important? Yes. Is it the most important? No. Weight is 70-80% about what you put in your face, the rest is about physical activity.

There is no way to outwork a bad diet, ain't gonna happen. I lost 20lbs last winter by stopping exercise and strictly watching my calories. I did a full IM with that extra 20lbs on me, it was only when I addressed diet that it made a difference. Same thing now, I crossfit 5-6 days per week, but the only way to stay lean is to watch my eating religiously.

There are plenty of rolly polly fat kids in my neighborhood, the reason I know there are plenty of fat kids is because they are riding, scootering, and running around the culdesac all the damn time. Then they go home and their irresponsible parents fill em full of shite so they are fat.

A campaign to get people to walk for 30-60 minutes per day is not going to hurt anyone, but it won't do much to combat obesity.

This is the kind of thinking I mean when I say that it's necessary to maintain a drumbeat to keep people focused on the underlying reality of thermodynamics when it comes to weightloss. If you give people an opportunity to imagine that "it's not so much how much you eat, but what you eat" they swan off into error.

I'm not saying "what you eat is irrelevant". I'm saying that humans are quick to imagine that the thermodynamics don't apply to people gaining/losing fat. The consequence of that is a reduced emphasis on the 2 most critical pieces of weight loss....consuming fewer calories and burning more.

The point you are avoiding or missing - is that *what* people eat affects hunger levels. That, in turn, governs how many calories people eat (the thermodynamics, if you prefer). I'm talking about general trends over a large population. Sure, there are some folks who can count calories and eat nothing but junk food and lose weight. There was a thread with that exact experiment on the tri forum not too long ago.

But generally speaking:

- humans are are lazy and tend to follow the path of least resistance
- willpower is a finite resource

If we make it easier to drive through than to make your own food, some people will do it. If it's easy to pound down 1500 calories in a sitting - e.g. big mac / supersize fries / coke - then people will do it. Once again I'm talking about general trends across society, not individual outliers.
I'm not avoiding or missing anything. It's the other folks that are avoiding and missing. They are avoiding the basic truth that fat gain/loss "Starts" with understanding the basic calorie math thermodynamics of the situation. Once that is understood, only then should they add on the complexities of how to eat less and how to eat better.

The problem is that most folks seem to skip over the thermodynamics entirely. Many, in fact, will deny the basic thermodynamics of the situation. They imagine that with interesting food choices they can eat 2x the calories as they could otherwise. If someone doesn't understand the thermodynamics of the situation, they are easy prey for all sorts of foolish ideas.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
spudone wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
A-A-Ron wrote:

Two pages of talk about physical activity and kids doing more walking is somewhat ironic on a triathlon board where one can view plenty of fat age groupers at any given race. Is physical activity important? Yes. Is it the most important? No. Weight is 70-80% about what you put in your face, the rest is about physical activity.

There is no way to outwork a bad diet, ain't gonna happen. I lost 20lbs last winter by stopping exercise and strictly watching my calories. I did a full IM with that extra 20lbs on me, it was only when I addressed diet that it made a difference. Same thing now, I crossfit 5-6 days per week, but the only way to stay lean is to watch my eating religiously.

There are plenty of rolly polly fat kids in my neighborhood, the reason I know there are plenty of fat kids is because they are riding, scootering, and running around the culdesac all the damn time. Then they go home and their irresponsible parents fill em full of shite so they are fat.

A campaign to get people to walk for 30-60 minutes per day is not going to hurt anyone, but it won't do much to combat obesity.

This is the kind of thinking I mean when I say that it's necessary to maintain a drumbeat to keep people focused on the underlying reality of thermodynamics when it comes to weightloss. If you give people an opportunity to imagine that "it's not so much how much you eat, but what you eat" they swan off into error.

I'm not saying "what you eat is irrelevant". I'm saying that humans are quick to imagine that the thermodynamics don't apply to people gaining/losing fat. The consequence of that is a reduced emphasis on the 2 most critical pieces of weight loss....consuming fewer calories and burning more.

The point you are avoiding or missing - is that *what* people eat affects hunger levels. That, in turn, governs how many calories people eat (the thermodynamics, if you prefer). I'm talking about general trends over a large population. Sure, there are some folks who can count calories and eat nothing but junk food and lose weight. There was a thread with that exact experiment on the tri forum not too long ago.

But generally speaking:

- humans are are lazy and tend to follow the path of least resistance
- willpower is a finite resource

If we make it easier to drive through than to make your own food, some people will do it. If it's easy to pound down 1500 calories in a sitting - e.g. big mac / supersize fries / coke - then people will do it. Once again I'm talking about general trends across society, not individual outliers.
I'm not avoiding or missing anything. It's the other folks that are avoiding and missing. They are avoiding the basic truth that fat gain/loss "Starts" with understanding the basic calorie math thermodynamics of the situation. Once that is understood, only then should they add on the complexities of how to eat less and how to eat better.

The problem is that most folks seem to skip over the thermodynamics entirely. Many, in fact, will deny the basic thermodynamics of the situation. They imagine that with interesting food choices they can eat 2x the calories as they could otherwise. If someone doesn't understand the thermodynamics of the situation, they are easy prey for all sorts of foolish ideas.

You're not an engineer by any chance, are you?

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
No doubt. I was raised in a fairly strict home, as it pertained to food. No sugar cereals, very limited access to snacks that didn't come directly from the ground. Fortunately it stuck through adulthood. But I'm far outside the norm today.

Two or three times per week, someone will bring food for the group to our ICU break room. Donuts, pizza, and cakes. Without exception. No one ever thinks to order healthy food. And this is in a place occupied entirely by adults, caring for critically ill people suffering largely from lifestyle-related illness. Granted, they're not serving up Marlboros and Jim Beam, but still. It's ever present, even among people who know better.


Once in a while, clients will bring food for the guys working on their renovation. It's always pizza or Tim Hortons doughnuts. Always. Then, for the rest of the afternoon, workers either leave early, slow down significantly, or start making mistakes from the effects of the sugar crash. Then the clients get upset because "I bought lunch for everyone and this is the thanks I get!".

When I know lunch is being bought on a site of mine, I eat my healthy brown bagged lunch at 11 so I'm not hungry and will take one slice just to be polite (and because, well, pizza).

Long Chile was a silly place.
Last edited by: BCtriguy1: Mar 8, 18 13:52
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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I believe RangerGress is an engineer by education, but not by occupation.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [Ringmaster] [ In reply to ]
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Ringmaster wrote:
I believe RangerGress is an engineer by education, but not by occupation.

Seems to be a few of those on the LR.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
I'm not avoiding or missing anything. It's the other folks that are avoiding and missing. They are avoiding the basic truth that fat gain/loss "Starts" with understanding the basic calorie math thermodynamics of the situation. Once that is understood, only then should they add on the complexities of how to eat less and how to eat better.

The problem is that most folks seem to skip over the thermodynamics entirely. Many, in fact, will deny the basic thermodynamics of the situation. They imagine that with interesting food choices they can eat 2x the calories as they could otherwise. If someone doesn't understand the thermodynamics of the situation, they are easy prey for all sorts of foolish ideas.

This is denying most of the existing research. You're fantasy-engineering rather than dealing with reality.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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cerveloguy wrote:
Ringmaster wrote:
I believe RangerGress is an engineer by education, but not by occupation.


Seems to be a few of those on the LR.

Savage.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
RangerGress wrote:

I'm not avoiding or missing anything. It's the other folks that are avoiding and missing. They are avoiding the basic truth that fat gain/loss "Starts" with understanding the basic calorie math thermodynamics of the situation. Once that is understood, only then should they add on the complexities of how to eat less and how to eat better.

The problem is that most folks seem to skip over the thermodynamics entirely. Many, in fact, will deny the basic thermodynamics of the situation. They imagine that with interesting food choices they can eat 2x the calories as they could otherwise. If someone doesn't understand the thermodynamics of the situation, they are easy prey for all sorts of foolish ideas.


This is denying most of the existing research. You're fantasy-engineering rather than dealing with reality.

If you want to seriously assert that the laws of thermodynamics don't apply to humans, then we don't have enough common ground to debate. Next it will be eternal motion machines on late night infomercials.

Re. being an engineer. I came out of school as a mechanical engineer, but I've never worked in the field.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
trail wrote:
RangerGress wrote:

I'm not avoiding or missing anything. It's the other folks that are avoiding and missing. They are avoiding the basic truth that fat gain/loss "Starts" with understanding the basic calorie math thermodynamics of the situation. Once that is understood, only then should they add on the complexities of how to eat less and how to eat better.

The problem is that most folks seem to skip over the thermodynamics entirely. Many, in fact, will deny the basic thermodynamics of the situation. They imagine that with interesting food choices they can eat 2x the calories as they could otherwise. If someone doesn't understand the thermodynamics of the situation, they are easy prey for all sorts of foolish ideas.


This is denying most of the existing research. You're fantasy-engineering rather than dealing with reality.

If you want to seriously assert that the laws of thermodynamics don't apply to humans, then we don't have enough common ground to debate. Next it will be eternal motion machines on late night infomercials.

Re. being an engineer. I came out of school as a mechanical engineer, but I've never worked in the field.

The human body is more complex than this IMO. Over the years I have learned that if I REALLY NEED a cheeseburger it means I’m low on iron. I can either eat a ton of cheeseburgers and broccoli or take an iron pill for a few days and the craving will go away. Two very caloric different solutions to my body needing something (I usually have one cheeseburger and pop a few days of iron pills). But, I will keep getting the I NEED a cheeseburger message until I deal with it. If I’m trying to cut calories knowing this and taking an iron pill is going to be a lot easier than not knowing it and being distracted for days craving a cheeseburger.

If the body is not getting what it needs it will keep signaling you. This is why I think it’s a harder battle to cut calories on low quality food- you body is going to fight you harder.
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
trail wrote:
RangerGress wrote:

I'm not avoiding or missing anything. It's the other folks that are avoiding and missing. They are avoiding the basic truth that fat gain/loss "Starts" with understanding the basic calorie math thermodynamics of the situation. Once that is understood, only then should they add on the complexities of how to eat less and how to eat better.

The problem is that most folks seem to skip over the thermodynamics entirely. Many, in fact, will deny the basic thermodynamics of the situation. They imagine that with interesting food choices they can eat 2x the calories as they could otherwise. If someone doesn't understand the thermodynamics of the situation, they are easy prey for all sorts of foolish ideas.


This is denying most of the existing research. You're fantasy-engineering rather than dealing with reality.


If you want to seriously assert that the laws of thermodynamics don't apply to humans, then we don't have enough common ground to debate. Next it will be eternal motion machines on late night infomercials.

Re. being an engineer. I came out of school as a mechanical engineer, but I've never worked in the field.


Curious to get your opinion on this paper?


https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/...0.1186/1475-2891-3-9
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [svennn] [ In reply to ]
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svennn wrote:


Curious to get your opinion on this paper?

https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/...0.1186/1475-2891-3-9


Interesting. I salute you for going looking for something authoritative.


Bottom line. 1) Your paper is terrible and mine is perfect. 2) Thermogenesis is a wuss compared to the satiation effect of protein. 3) I accede to your point that my "a calorie is a calorie" argument isn't perfect. It seems likely that we can eat a few more calories of protein because of the metabolic cost to burn it. But apparently the significance of the issue is small enough that empirical studies struggle to reach a consensus. You forced me to go do some reading to back up my blithe assertions. I salute you for that too.


The abstract of the Feinman paper sucks. The paper's attempt to use Entropy to assert "no violation of Thermodynamics" is weak-sauce. The paper's discussion of "the body burns fats and proteins inefficiently" is interesting, but insufficiently supported to be compelling.


The paper is attacking the idea that simple calorie counting accurately predicts weight loss. It makes 2 separate attacks, w/o really making it clear that the 2 points are entirely separate.


First attack: 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. The paper gets the idea of Entropy right and posits that the higher Entropy associated with the chemical reaction of turning protein into energy accounts for appreciable calories. They're probably right. But what they fail to show is that it's significant. If the increase in entropy is .0001% of the caloric value, then it's not worth considering.


The paragraph mentions a delta G as 4kcal/g (which is a big #), maybe hoping that the nutritionist target audience will see that # and attribute significance to the Entropy argument. But Gibbs free energy isn't Entropy, it's Entropy+Enthalpy+Heat.


Second attack: Thermogenisis. This is the idea that the body metabolizes carbs more efficiently. Therefore if the body has to work hard to digest proteins, there's energy losses there. That is to say, if it costs 10kcal to metabolize 100kcal of protein, then you can eat 110cal. The #'s in your paper all track nicely with the math with my paper in the below link.


I'd argue that the 1) diet induced thermogenesis issue is still contraversial and 2) to the extent that protein is widely available in junk food, the thermogenesis argument doesn't matter.


Issue is still contraversial. This study says a) Diet induced Thermogenesis is an attractive and plausible theory, yet there's lots of problems in the research. b) The empirical experiments don't match the math.


The study says that when you do the math, protein is burned at an inefficiency of 20-30%, alcohol at 10-30% inefficiency, carbs 5-10% inefficiency, and fats at 0-3%. It says that our bodies aren't adhering to the math because our metabolism can't be precisely duplicated by burning food in a petri dish and measuring the heat output. The study found that protein results in weight loss not by it's inherent inefficiency, but by the feeling of satiation it creates. Explaining away the thermogenesis affect of alcohol was particularly imaginative. The study suggested that maybe people who drank alchohol are more active.


https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-1-5

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
Last edited by: RangerGress: Mar 13, 18 6:16
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [WelshinPhilly] [ In reply to ]
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Speaking of...

Quote:
Parents Don't Believe BMI Tests or Doctors Who Say Kids Are Fat

Doctors can’t convince parents that their kids are obese, according to a new study of 109 moms and dads. Fifty-three percent of parents refused to believe their children’s BMI report cards accurately reflected their weights — whether their BMIs were overweight, underweight, or normal. And a mere 13 percent of parents whose children were deemed overweight by BMI report cards were galvanized into changing their diets or activity habits. The rest were decidedly unmoved.
Fucked.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Speaking of...

Quote:
Parents Don't Believe BMI Tests or Doctors Who Say Kids Are Fat

Doctors can’t convince parents that their kids are obese, according to a new study of 109 moms and dads. Fifty-three percent of parents refused to believe their children’s BMI report cards accurately reflected their weights — whether their BMIs were overweight, underweight, or normal. And a mere 13 percent of parents whose children were deemed overweight by BMI report cards were galvanized into changing their diets or activity habits. The rest were decidedly unmoved.

Fucked.

If they admit their kids are fat then they'll have to admit they are obese. You cannot exactly put your kid on a diet without him asking, "If I have to diet, why don't you? You're fatter than I am!"
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Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sphere wrote:
Speaking of...

Quote:
Parents Don't Believe BMI Tests or Doctors Who Say Kids Are Fat

Doctors can’t convince parents that their kids are obese, according to a new study of 109 moms and dads. Fifty-three percent of parents refused to believe their children’s BMI report cards accurately reflected their weights — whether their BMIs were overweight, underweight, or normal. And a mere 13 percent of parents whose children were deemed overweight by BMI report cards were galvanized into changing their diets or activity habits. The rest were decidedly unmoved.
Fucked.

How are parents supposed to see it in their kids when they can't even recognize it in themselves? I bet most people who are obese, but not morbidly so, wouldn't say they are obese but 'heavy' or something like that.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Post deleted by spudone [ In reply to ]
Re: Fat soon become the new norm? [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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spudone wrote:
Quote:
It continue to say that people aren't following the math because our metabolism can't be precisely duplicated by burning food in a petri dish and measuring the heat output.
This is part of my line of thought. Reason being: if you burn a piece of food and measure heat output, it is (mostly) repeatable. You burn it, you get some heat and you leave some waste. Given the same input, the heat generated should be the same. That gives a caloric value to the food.

But put that same food into a bunch of humans and you probably end up with different ratios of energy captured : waste output. Due to different gut flora, etc. I don't know how that could be directly measured though.

I guess for me the question is is the range of variability in absorbing calories going to be meaningful compared to the range of variability in what you eat and what you use through physical activity?

I think most likely you're talking a very thin layer of icing on the cake, and the cake has two very thick layers: the # of calories you put in your mouth and the # of calories your metabolism uses.
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