Bump

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Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miyagi

Power loss is far more common when lowing the saddle and I would say it's acceptable if it's accompanied by a drop in CdA. Seeing as raising your saddle is far more likely to raise your CdA, is simply put it back to where it was.
I'm very anti-fitter when it comes to TT position as changes in CdA can't be taken into account without testing.

Lower your saddle.

Thread title is misleading. You didn't lose power, you simply aren't gaining power. Something the fitter did might be the culprit, but if you came out of the fit with the "exact" same as FTP as you went in with, that theory is suspect.

I put exact in quotes because stating your FTP down to the single digit belies a fundamental understanding of the concept. At best, you call it to the nearest 5, but when you get up close to 300, it might be a good time to round it down to the nearest 10 and leave it at that, until you are certain it has gone up at least 10 watts.

Sounds like you have been at this for a long time, perhaps doing the same thing for a number of years? I would look first to reevaluating your program and perhaps posting some before and after photos and videos of the fit. You got those right? Of course you did. Because no slowtwitch reader is going to a fit and not getting at least before and after photos, along with their primary fit coordinates. I look forward to some vids with my morning joe.

That's just not true.

Oh? Go on, enlighten me.

First question would be whether you feel significantly better in the new position. If the answer is no. then mark your saddle height and try dropping it 5 mm. The same suggestion goes with raising the bar height 5 mm or changing the saddle angle by a couple degrees. Fitters are going by formula and eyeball observations. There is no absolute fastest formula. I can lose 20 watts at FTP for a minor saddle height or angle change.

Given that you cant make any fitness gains at this time of the year, mark and measure your current position and experiment with minor tweeks. If you find a position that is much more comfortable chances are it sill be faster because comfort=wattage and there aren't too many times that a minor tweak is going to save you 20-30 watts in Cd.

Thanks to all for your responses. This reply is the only one that answered my question. I was simply curious if raising the seat can hamper my training. Easy peasy question.

I understand that someone thought the subject line was misleading. I apologize. I suppose it would be more accurate to say "I haven't been making any gains since my last fitting almost two months ago. In addition,my trainer road sessions seem to be more difficult to finish since the fit." But that wouldn't fit on the subject line.

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Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miyagi

I don't feel any more comfortable, or less comfortable in the new position. I simply am struggling to finish workouts that were previously more "doable". WRT making fitness gains this time of year, I tend to make significant gains in the winter. I didn't know that was unusual. Is it?

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Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miyagi

Yeah, Einstein, I did that. I'll see how that goes over the next couple of weeks. Thanks.

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Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miyagi

at least you're doing intervals in the aero position... most people don't.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Do you have any heart rate data from before and after the fit? You could compare HR for a similar workout and see if maybe you can get an indication that your breathing is constricted. Did you go a bunch narrower. on the new fit?

I would take less issue with the statement if you replace "taken into account" with "measured precisely". Is that enlightening? I still disagree with the first part, but also understand that most riders' experience with bike fitters is less than ideal. I wouldn't quite say the industry is in shambles, but it is pretty much the wild west out there, despite our editor's attempts to improve it.

"Taken into account" really just means thought about or considered, and I consider the aerodynamic effects during every bike fit. Are my assumptions always correct? Probably not. Is lower always faster? No. The thing is, "lower isn't always faster" is just a trite way of saying that it is almost always is.

Certainly for the 99% of aerobar riders who walk through my door with 110° of hip angle and their heads 9 inches over the level of their back, yes they are absolutely leaving with improved, yet unquantified, CdA. For the 1%er, the slowtwitch reader, most likely you, there is less certainty, and I wouldn't propose to be certain. What I would propose is that the modern fit bike in capable hands is the place to begin. My goal for such fits is to insure the primary coordinates are optimized and then a formulate a hierarchy of questions to be answered via field or tunnel testing. Those questions are almost always 1) what helmet should I wear? 2) what clothing should I wear? 3) should I angle my forearms? 4) should I ride narrower or wider? 5) where should I put my nutrition?

Conspicuously absent from that list is "How much drop should I ride?" While that is a question that testing is entirely qualified to answer, it's just not the low hanging fruit of testing time. There are just so many variables going into front end shape when you consider drop, reach, elbow width, hand width, aerobar angle, aerobar cant... and then how they all play into different helmets... testing everything from scratch is not possible. You have to start with a proper fit on proper equipment, with certain aerodynamic assumptions, and with an experienced eyeball wind tunnel that "takes into account" the most likely effects on CdA.

Yes, heart rate is slightly higher at comparable wattage. That's what has been grabbing my attention along with RPE.

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Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miyagi

So CdA gains/losses can't be quantified by a fitter with any more surety than throwing darts at a dartboard. Gotchya. Eyeball tunnel and butt dyno on order...

This gave me a giggle.
Is lower always faster? No. The thing is, "lower isn't always faster" is just a trite way of saying that it is almost always is.

Exactly! The only variable becomes "who's throwing the darts?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGNZ3GqYrVY

doesn't matter who is throwing the darts when they are throwing at the wrong board

I agree that for 99% of the population a good fitter can improve comfort and CDA.


For the 1% of people that are already towards the pointy end of the eyeball wind tunnel I have been using the STAC Virtual Wind Tunnel. It usually means a follow up appointment, but most people searching for percents are ok with a follow up.

Did you try it? I think I saw you posting about it on Facebook.

Definitely more accurate than throwing darts ha.

*I am sponsored by STAC so maybe I have some bias, but for convenience and ease I think it is a great tool

Have you compared it to a proper tunnel or velodrome? Give it a try if it's free, but I think it's a waste of cash.

If you could describe how your tangential "wrong board" metaphor relates to the already rebuked "dart board metaphor" I would be happy to discuss that as well. Specifically, what is the wrong board that bike fitters who assert they can improve your aerodynamics are throwing at?

All I see is a small cross section of riders asserting that something an admittedly small cross section of fitters can do quite successfully, can't be done.

Depends on your end game for fit.

Want to podium, race pro, top AG, etc? Fit is as aggressive as possible maximizing power and minimizing incorrect fit that could cause injury. You have to adapt to it and it is not the most comfortable fit.

Want to "enjoy" your ride? Fit to aggressive and then dial back to comfort level. No one is the same, so adjusting seat height could be due to preference or the fitter seeing you are out of motion range and could be an issue.

If it wasn't broke, don't fix it. If you wanted more power and everything else was good, time to change your training. If you had pain or discomfort and wanted an adjustment, then fit timing is right.

When you change the fit, even minimally, you will have a period of adjustment where your body needs to gain back efficiency to the new fit. I'd give it a few weeks, and if you don't see changes, change your training plan. If you are in pain or discomfort, change the seat back.

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Ryan
http://www.SetThePaceTriathlon.com
http://www.TriathlonTrainingDaddy.com
I got plans - https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...dotcom#trainingplans

This is just silly. Continuing the metaphor; it's as if neither the client nor the fitter can see the dartboard in question and the client is wholly reliant in what the fitter says he hit. The fitter simply can't validate an aero claim without testing, which very few are able to do.

If a fitter can educates a rider to go from the left head position to the right one, out of of 100 riders, how many times do you think the rider is likely to be less aerodynamic? You might think this is silly, but I find it silly that you think that something can't be almost certainly improved qualitatively simply because it can't be absolutely quantitatively measured.

So you charge to tell someone to shrug? Remind me again how they couldn't have got this information for free on the tinterwebs?

I was trying to be helpful.

Hell yeah I charge people to tell them to shrug! duh. More specifically I charge them for their primary and secondary fit coordinates, recommended touch point equipment, tire/wheel/helmet/clothing advice, and postural advice (rotate / turtle / shrug). In other words I do bike fits. I don't care what's available online... and what isn't available to learn online these days? And yet somehow people who teach others how to do things, still earn a living.

But you never really answered my question, so let's back up. Your original statement, paraphrased, was that bike fitters were not useful for aerobar riders because we are unable to consider aerodynamics. After verbally challenging you, I posted a picture and a question, which if you had answered honestly, would pretty thoroughly undercut your original statement.

Instead of answering, your premise changed to, again paraphrasing, "well, some of what you do is available online, so... *insert something you think this proves, either 1) that bike fitters still can't help people with aerobars or 2) because you can learn to shrug online therefor my opinion doesn't count*

LOL, you posted a picture of a dude in and out of a shrug. My original point still stands. How do you quantity the aero gain/loss from moving a saddle up or down 5mm? Or arms wide or together? Or moving hands 5mm one way or the other? Hey, let's go back to the shrug, how do know own the delta between shrug and relaxed and the helmet interaction with both to know how to ride a half or full?

Again, charging someone for a shrug is not a bike fit. You might be able to put someone in a painless and sustainable position, but neither you nor your client will every truly know if it was the fastest fit.

No, your original point was "I'm very anti-fitter when it comes to TT position as changes in CdA can't be taken into account without testing."

So sorry, but you don't get to change it to, "How do you quantity the aero gain/loss from moving a saddle up or down 5mm?" or "charging someone for a shrug is not a bike fit."

Being unable to take positional changes into account is not remotely the same thing as being unable to quantify the Cda changes from a 5mm saddle height change.

And the first part of your statement (before you accuse me of taking the 2nd part out of context), "Power loss is far more common when lowing the saddle and I would say it's acceptable if it's accompanied by a drop in CdA." is often correct, but very ill advised. It leaves out the part that lowering the saddle to the point where power is lost is a really great way to induce an overuse injury.

This is a ridiculously circular discussion. Please tell me how you can tell the impact of fit changes on CdA? You can't. That was the point I was making.

I stand by my point about lower saddle position. The fact that I didn't mention you shouldn't ride a position that isn't maintainable and causes pain/injury doesn't mean anything, because A) obvs and B) the OP rode just fine with a lower saddle position before (it is his thread after all).

He never said anything about quantifying the impact, just that he can get a lot of people into positions that are going to be better than their old ones. I imagine that is a lot less expensive than getting tunnel time to quantify minor changes, which is what you might be interested in.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

"I'm very anti-fitter when it comes to TT position as changes in CdA can't be taken into account without testing."


Once more, "taken into account" is the part I dispute, as it suggests that any advice a bike fitter provides about aerodynamics is no better than a coin toss.
"tell the impact" is NOT the same as "taken into account". I take a lot of shit into account without being able to tell the absolute impact.

Taking to its' logical conclusion, your assertion has us testing everyone sitting upright on road bikes because there is no way to tell anything without testing.

... and we're off topic! :-)

Back to the original threat... A few things comes to mind. First, raising the saddle can cause fatigue if you are above your functional range. Triathletes tend to have tight quads and hamstrings, which reduces the functional range. This could account for the sensation that you have, struggling to finish workouts that were doable prior to the fit. Since you've already lowered the saddle, you might've solved this already.

Reading the thread, it sounds like you have not been outdoors yet. It could very well be that you have a more efficient fit, so for the same power, you go faster. If that is the case, then same power as before might not be too bad!

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"Suddenly the thought struck me. My floor is someone elses ceiling"-Nils Ferlin

I had the same thing.



Just switched from a 2015 Cervelo S2 with S5 dual position seat post set to TT position, T2 Clip-ons and fit at shop. I've ridden the S2 in the TT position for almost a year now and spend 99% of my time in the aero position. New bike is a Argon-18 E-112. The TT bike is very comfortable and was not fit in an aggressive way (Slammed).

Big thing is though after switching over, I now get an insane burn in my quads. First workout I did was Pettit and even that was difficult. I then did a FTP test and I could barely hold 240 watts (last test was 280w on S2) before quads over loaded and couldn't finish the 20min test.


Not sure what to do right now because I don't feel like i can even get a good cardio workout on the Argon.


Feels like the new position is massively engaging my quads now and limiting my power.


Trying to figure out whether to bite it and grind through this or keep messing with my position on my own.

You should post some before and after videos or at least photos, as that is a massive power loss and something could be apparent from a visual assessment. I'm guessing seat height / crank length.

Broseph I've learnt most of what I know about coaching and physical therapy online. Sure I've spent some serious dough for some of my knowledge, but the absolute majority is from free online resources. Does this mean that any sports coaching or physical therapy that's not done by yourself on yourself is a waste of time and money?

I also do some bikefitting, mainly for my coaching clients because it makes them hell of a lot faster "for free", giving me some street cred as people watching might be lead to believe that I make my athletes crazy fit on the bike when they drop 45 mins on their ironman bike split. But I guess I'm just in good luck since I cant quantify the gains without proper testing.

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

So you're able to eyeball aero losses and and gains against positional changes too? Okay.

Do you know who else is able to do that? Everyone.

Were you using the same powermeter on each bike? Were the FTP tests done in similar conditions?

Thank you for the thoughtful and informative response. Good information that you've provided. I do seem to notice lots hamstring tightness, actually. The higher saddle was comfortable, I just wasn't sure if it could affect power/strength. Sounds like its a possibility.

edit: I lowered my saddle slightly, but don't have a lot of time logged with this change. So far, I've felt stronger, but perhaps its placebo.

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Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miyagi

[quote]Seeing as raising your saddle is far more likely to raise your CdA[/quote]


Sometimes yes sometimes no. It's 40-60 or 60-40 but somewhere in that range. At least judging from what we've seen on the velodrome and in the tunnel

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Dude, Grill knows how to make people aerodynamic. Who do you think you are... some guy who understands wind tunnels or something?

You make me laugh dude. Funny how my view that if you're paying for a fit then changes ought be accompanied by validated aero data is so easily misrepresented. I get it though, people paying for fits want to believe they got VFM, and those selling them don't want to their business to drop off as a result of people either sorting themselves out or spending the money elsewhere.

I'm sorry. I definitely don't want to misrepresent your views. I want to perfectly represent them and then explain why they're wrong. The tough part is that your views change a little every time you post. Would you precisely summarize the reasons and extent to which bike fitters are unqualified to address aerodynamics? I think then we can put all these unpleasantries to rest.

I was also recently fitted and can see both sides of this. The fit is a starting point, a good one but it is dynamic and can change over time depending on many factors including flexibility, body type, and maybe even muscle composition. I am a masher and am thus quite quad dominant and my fitter actually took this into account when fitting me.

coupla things. first, that point you made about lowering the saddle. there's data on that. on whether lowering the saddle or raising the saddle, from the point of a perfect saddle height, is more deleterious to power. you'll want to consider and perhaps reference that data when making your claim.

second, you're right, you can't look at someone and know whether the position just got more aero. however, damon rinard and nathan barry (cannondale) have studied these changes as classes, that is, if you do take people to the wind tunnel, and you do narrow elbows, lower the bars, shrug, etc., you get data on average benefit by class.

to be clear, if you look at the data points, they aren't clustered. if you take 8 people and lower their bars by 1cm, 5 will be around X seconds of gain over 40k (or drag savings @ 30mph), 2 will be more, and 1 will have more drag, or no change. so, you can't say for certain. but you can make an estimated guess. whether those changes actually get you the time savings is another thing (if you narrow elbows, do you get the benefit if you're horribly uncomfortable?).

second, there are products that you can use in a fit studio that do a pretty good job of "guessing" your drag. here is velogicfit's 3D aero. it's pretty easy to set up, i've got all the hardware, software, 2 cameras, set up in my fit studio now. it's not a wind tunnel, but it's a proxy for it (just as a wind tunnel isn't the road, but it's a proxy for it).

look, i'm the first one to tell you, bike fitters are wizards or their charlatans, just as the people you date are dreams or duds. if you've had a dud experience, you can swear off love or you can rest in the knowledge that love is valid, but the mechanics of finding it are not straightforward. likewise with bike fitting.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Cool to see Dan contributing to “my” thread. Thanks for the input.

FWIW, I have lowered my saddle slightly (essentially split the difference between the old and new height), and so far seem to feel better.

I had the new height for about 7 weeks, so it seems that I would have worked through the “getting used to it” phase. Anyway, perhaps I’ve found the sweet spot by adjusting the saddle down slightly. Feeling good once again.

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Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miyagi

Kraig Willett had a nugget of wisdom that has stuck with me. He said if you can't adapt to a new portion in 2 weeks, it just isn't going to work for you. I had to learn that the hard way.

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe someone can find a link to Mark Hodges' study.


Worth pointing out those hyperlinked words are worth clicking on. They take you here: http://www.slowtwitch.com/...Free_Speed_6113.html

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

Reading the AeroLab patent paper was very insightful education about air flow and compression effects ..

To the OP: Some power will come back by time if the body can adopt to the new position and just to ride harder is not always stopping the watch sooner ;-)

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___/\___/\___/\___ the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>

Interesting patent! Thanks for the link.

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

What saddle are you on? Effective seat tube on the bike? Your hip flexor measurement from your Retul fit?

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Robert Driskell
Certified Master Body Geometry fit Technician
Certified Master Retul Fit Technician
Zipp Service Course Specialist
Bikes Plus Pensacola Florida

Yes, as I can eyeball running mechanics. This does not mean that I can tell anyone that their ground reaction force reduced 3% with a change without force plates, but I can tell with reasonable certainty when GRF goes up and down. This is because there is some general patterns in running (cadence, impact sounds, leg stiffness etc) with correlate closely with GRF just as there is general patterns with correlate closely with cda (horizontal sternum, narrow and tight cockpit, proper saddle height etc).

Are you also anti-swimcoach? Because swim coaches cant verify just how much drag sinky scissoring legs create and report in a validated metric?

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

...

Yes, these findings are inconclusive. Adding stack usually raises cda, going narrower usually lowers cda, tilt can do anything. I did these changes and using only BBS Aero tool it seems like a narrower, higher and tilted setup made me faster, but, race times did not reflect this. Because of weather on race day? Maybe this suit is slower than the castelli i used last year? Because if the new setup? I'm already pretty dialed in this position and changes here are not obvious anymore, and need more careful testing. For the absolute majority, this is not the case.

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

Your times don't reflect your expectations because you have no idea what impact they had on your CdA. This is my point.

Put some pants on and get rid of the Tempor.

You have no idea how that will impact my cda.

Jokes aside. It's easy to get most people aero on the bike. Estimating what 15mm extra stack does, if it's better or worse to move pads in some 20mm, if 7 degrees of tilt are more aero or just more comfy is not really possible and it's not our debate. That shit needs more careful testing, more than just riding a standard route a few times and using BBS aero analyzer. Because it SEEMS like my new setup is faster, and that race times were simply slower this year.

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

Skin is slow. I have lots of data on that.
The Tempor is fast, but yet to be fastest, in one position (and is a freaking parachute if you deviate). I have plenty of data on that too.

Are you... extrapolating from others data to draw conclusions about my equipment choices without testing?!! You charlatan!

I wear speedos to keep it fun, honor the roots.

I wear the tempor because the flat, stingray shaped tail covers my ponytail well. And it looks bloody crazy 8-) With tilted aerobars I have no issues to maintain a decent head position (like the one in the picture) for ~5h with only very short deviations (when grabbing bottles for example). For IM's and longer, some comfort is a good idea.

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede