People who live in better weather than Philly?

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

people without the need to cart kids around. If you are 90% families with kids, there you go.

I want a Miata (or similar) but I can't justify it. It was going to be my 50th birthday present to me (a few years away still) but probably gonna push that back to 55. My son will be 10 and out of car seats. And it will be used.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Me. I no longer have kids in the house.

I drive a Dodge Challenger SCAT Pack. I currently have winter tires on it and have been driving it all winter.
I have previously mentioned the 1989 Corvette I drive in the summer (currently in storage).
Wifie drives a 2000 Porsche Boxster S in the summer (currently in storage).

---

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I live in a similar neighborhood with 44 houses. 1 Camero, 1 Mustang and one WRX (mine) is all I can think of. I don't know about your neighborhood, but I think the demographics of my neighborhood are much older than the typical sports car driver. I think the sports cars are more the 20-somethings living in apartments or smaller houses.

I also live in a place where it snows most days in the winter. Almost all pickups and SUVs.

People who like sports cars? The new ones aren’t cheap, and they’re always going to be a third car if you have snow. So it’s bit surprising you don’t see that many. Most people aren’t willing or don’t want to drop 60k+ on a third car, especially if you have kids.

Also the number of car people has I think dropped significantly. With the price increases, the inability to work on new ones yourself due to the complexities, the whole I love sports cars didn’t transfer as well to gen x and gen y.

In our circle the guy across from us doesn’t have kids, but he has a Maserati. I’ve got a 3000 gt vr4, which I’ve had forever so well before I got married and had a kid, then we have one more person down the street that has an older viper and a Shelby Cobra (that I’ve never seen out). But that person also has two Porsche Cayenne’s so they got some cash.

I’ve definitely seen a pretty big decrease on the number of sports cars on the road in the last 5-10 years. But that’s not too surprising.

Already mentioned: weather (i.e. road conditions) and kids. Shooting from the hip, I'd say that those two cover about 90% of why people don't own those particular vehicles.

---

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell

For the kids its a focus RS or RS3

For without the kids a caterham 7.......

Problem solved

People who like sports cars own sports cars... Do you have any of the four door faux sports cars like dodge chargers with the hemi? If so, like Jason said, once the kids are gone that dad/mom might be in line for a sports car down the road.

And it is Camaro, not camero.

---

Ryan

And a R?

Or is a 500hp golf, still a golf..........

In about 5 to 10 years depending upon how that vehicle is kept up and the equipment:
* It will be worth more that its purchase value new.
* Did you maybe speak with the owner? Maybe that car has sentimental value for some reason.
My first 2 cars were 3rd generation Camaro
* 85 base model - HS Graduation present
* 92 RS with V8 - First Car I bought on my own
If I did not have this Triathlon hobby, and did not live in a condo I could very well would buy an 80 to 90's Camaro and or Vette.
(My dad was Vette guy and he owned 6 of them from 1973 until he died and gave me the last one a 2002)
To be exact a 1996 LT4 Convertible Corvette in the Silver Anniversary package, which would cost about 10k is what I would buy and I want.
I like the Vette that JSA bought a while back.
I am 49 / College Educated / Work for a fortune 100 company / Lives in Los Angeles/ No kids

---

2017 Cervelo P2
2017 Cervelo S2
itraininla.com
#itraininla

What do you consider a sports car? I have 2 60's Datsun roadsters. I consider them sports cars. Some wouldn't. I live cheaper and rural. My brother-in-law has a souped up Camaro and he lives in the kind of place you described.

Yep. I still have the .:R. It too is currently in storage. She is used almost exclusively for racing and rallies now.

---

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

And I think less people want sports cars in general due to the cost. If you love cars it’s not a huge deal if you have the extra money. But most people would rather spend 7-8k a year going on trips than paying off a car loan for a 3rd car.

I live 60 minutes NE of Philly in central Jersey. I have my 2016 Challenger Scat Pack which... occasionally gets driven in the winter (days like today... 40 or above).

I pretty much only have it because of my wife's car. She doesn't work, so barely needs it... and it's an older Honda CRV with a lot of miles that I use for bad weather or to put in parking garages. If it weren't for her car.. I would have kept my Jeep.

The townhouse area I live in has a few mustangs, two corvettes, my challenger and one other one, and probably something else I haven't seen.

---

I talk to myself because mine are the only answers I'll accept - George Carlin

-
Yeah, I had a problem with definitions too, because in my mind your cars would be "sports" cars (esp if something like a 2000), and your BIL's a "muscle" car. The lines are blurred these days, with each side taking on more attributes of the other.

Basically this, cars are getting expensive. Especially when you can't find a new minivan for under $30k. Hell, my 2012 subaru outback was $23k new, three years later the new model listed for $28k.

I'll also add this, a $30k car is ~$500 a month payment, two cars is $1k a month. Most upper middle class people can't afford that and pay for their kids traveling soccer team.

Both are 2000's, one with the racing package but needs my restoration attention. My BIL doesn't even drive his. Sits in the 3rd bay and collects dust.

I live in Austin.

Tons of sports cars here: Challenger, 'vettes, Camaros, Mustangs, Porsches, sport coupes, etc.

When my son got out of a car seat, my wife had an Audi TT.

Not really a sports car, but I dropped twin turbos on my Infiniti FX and could blow doors off of most sports cars.

I think a Lexus RC is in my wife's near future. She loves the looks of that car.

People who are shorter than about 6’4”

-
Very cool, I seriously kicked around buying one a couple years ago, but didn't pull the trigger.

As a total aisde i dont, and this maybe heresy, consider mustangs, chargers, corvettes or camaros sports cars

I dont consider the RS, RS3 sports cars. Just hot hatches

Sports cars; gt3rs, gt2, anything with a straight up track pedigree

The others are many things but if you told a european you bought a sports car, they asked what and you said camaro i am not sure they would agree its a sports car ;)

I would add a wrinkle to your sports car train of thought and expand it. How many have motorcycles or UTV's? Motorcycles all the way from Harleys, crotch rockets, and dirt bikes. UTV's from utility to sport machines, boats, you could even add in RV's to that mix as a luxury item that many people have.

I've gone the route of a sport UTV, RV and dirt bikes. College, middle aged with a family so it fits our life style. I would love to have a muscle car or sports car in the garage but would rather have the items I currently own instead of one.

A big trend that I see is RV's and storage of them. There is a shortage of properties that allow storage so people put them in storage lots.

Also depends upon where you live for the above toys that I view to be in a similar category as a sports car but more budget friendly. I live in the west with lots of public land to enjoy these toys. Winter can also be an issue with snow in Idaho but it's not terrible.

There's a doctor down the street with a Camaro, farther down a guy has painstakingly restored his father's Italian something or other, there's a 944 farther down, and a Mustang GT500 around the corner. The doctor is relatively young, the others are older I believe.


Lots of Microsoft millionaires in Bellevue. I couldn't believe the array of exotics and supercars there.

In the Detroit area, you see a lot of sports cars, from Corvettes, Camaros to 911's, Ferarris, Lamborghinis etc.

You can triple that number if you start counting Porsche Cayennes, Panameras, Range Rovers, BMM X5s, X3s etc. as 'sports cars'

I think there is a significant difference between 200k on a gt3 rs and a RV or bikes

One has virtually no utility outside a track the other has quite a lot

-
I agree, and used to describe my ownership history as many sporty cars and a few sports cars. Time is the wrinkle, and your hot hatches could probably out-perform the true sports cars from a couple decades ago...so harder to keep a thumb on precise definitions. I might go with attributes like IRS and fairly equal weight distribution as well as some power to weight metrics. Heck, the sports cars these days have automatics!

Yep, I live in a highrise in downtown Austin and my parking garage is filled with sports cars. Most people in my building make a decent amount of money and don't have a family, this combination seems to lead to a lot of sports cars in my parking garage.

---

2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.

The people who own sports cars are the folks who haven't wised up to the fact that a second car is such a pain in the rear.

I now only own one all-purpose vehicle.

Agreed. I have a Sunbeam Tiger and a Focus RS. The Tiger is a 'sports car' by almost anyone's definition, but the RS would be, at best, a 'sporty car'. However, 50 years have moved the performance goalposts quite a bit. The two cars have similar horsepower (the Tiger is not stock), but the RS handles better, stops better, has a higher top speed, it seats four people... and I drove it to work in -34C weather today.

---

Less is more.

That's why I love my WRX wagon/hatch. I can go canyon carving one day and load it up with my dog and "toys" and go to the beach the next!

---

Chris
*********************
“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
― Hunter S. Thompson,

---

Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

I agree re the weather. I live in a neighborhood of about 60 homes and, by my count, we have:

2 Aston Martins
3 Maseratis
3 Porsche 911 Turbos (including my neighbor)
4 or 5 newer model Corvettes
2 Audi R8s
a few soccer mom's driving Panameras
2 original Shelby Cobras
Seems like every 3rd home has a Tesla

Lots of Range Rover's, which seem to be the Orange County cliche.

No muscle cars that I've seen.

Who owns these cars? It's mixed. Some are almost daily drivers, others (like my neighbor) rarely drive theirs. Some have small kids in the house, almost all have kids of some age - the houses aren't ideal for just one couple.

Some are clearly the 'keeping up with the Jones'' types, others (including my neighbor) are true sports car buffs and has the cash.

And here I am driving my Toyota Tundra as my everyday vehicle. I should probably buy a shell of a fancy car to put in the garage just to fit in. But, I actually love my Tundra, including the total lack of pretense, even to the point of the blue collar image.

In your book, is this a sports car?

---

Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

"Do you have any of the four door faux sports cars like dodge chargers with the hemi? "

No, none of those, either. Well.....the kid across the street (as I just looked out my window) has a a Monte Carlo (2 door), but that's not really what you meant.


Its mostly SUVs here with a few Lexuses, Acuras, and Mercedes in the older couples.

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

-
nice! The Elise ticks another important "sports car" box with "lightweight", though technology all around helps mute even that.

You live in deleware county right ? My neighborhood is similar to yours.

I've noticed in a few cases in this area people either invest in cars or homes. So not uncommon to see camero's , challengers, or mustangs in apartment building parking lots.

---

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

Time and again I've convinced myself to buy something fast and sporty and I always regret it. My daily driver is now a Ram 1500 Ecodiesel, and I've really come to like it. Rides like a big sedan, it's quiet and comfortable.

In terms of sportscars, I'm heavily biased towards small and light. Too many "sporty" cars these days are >4000lbs and pretty darn big. I'd love to have a 911 again or maybe a Cayman. I've been sniffing around the Alfa Romeo Giulia. But I've come to learn that the new car would be fabulous for only a month and then I'd be right back to driving my big, quiet comfortable truck. And once again I'd be stuck for months and months trying to sell my "latest good idea" in a region where cars move slow because we're a long ways from any major metro area.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Thanks guys. I really was just curious as I realized that I never see any. I had not considered the weather factor.

So is it safe to say that the following factors increase you chance of buying a sports car?

Good weather
No kids (ie Young people, old people, and people who just don't want kids)
Lots of money (ie upper middle class/wealthy....so above my neighborhood's status)
....or bad with money (I notice more sports cars in working class neighborhoods)


I'd actually love a sports car, but its probably the weather that makes the biggest difference. I never thought of it that way, but rather "how much for a 3rd car vs how fun would it be?" San Diego weather would make it a lot more fun.

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

+1 on that although I would say the car is not an investment

---

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I'm on the same page, too.

Solid rear axel = muscle car (high HP) or sporty car (low HP).

IRS/Hatch-back/Turbo = hot hatch

IRS/RWD/2-seater = sports car

I'm biased to include the lower-HP cars like the Miata/MX-5...cuz I own two...well, three if you count the totaled first racecar which is still sitting in my shop along with the rebuilt version 2.0. My kids are all grown, but even when they weren't, we had a similar setup as a suburban and a WRX (hot hatch).

A typical scenario I see in the DFW area is a SUV for the wife/kids/road-trips and a sporty+ car for Dad to drive to work. Even without kids now, we have a crew-cab truck and my miatas (and an RV for longer travel :-).

I used to have a 911 Targa and I absolutely loved driving it. My wife actually drove it more than I did, but it's so impractical and very small I got to the point where I'd only drive it once or twice per month. I had young kids at the time and wouldn't put them in it. I finally sold it, for about $5k more than I paid.

The only reason I wish I still had it is because it's now worth about 50% more than I paid!

Like you, I drive a full sized pickup truck. Totally ridiculous given where I live and where I typically drive but it's what I grew up with - I grew up in the middle of nowhere where one could go four-wheeling and ride motocross off the front driveway and it's my comfort zone.

Stock it is not a sports car

I have a skoda as it happens

They don't sell a sports car

That however is a sports car in the same way that this mini is

https://www.autosport.com/...-mini-for-2018-dakar

Or the lack of garage space. My 1-car garage holds bikes, lawn equipment and power tools.

Agreed, poor wording on my part.

---

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

You can have all the fun with a awd hot hatch. Rs3, Rs, any. 4 doors. The audi can be taken to 450 HP with no changes to stock bar air filter. They just wrote it up on evo

Where as to get a golf R or focus RS to that takes some work

Equally a caterham 7 weighing 700kg putting out 400bhp has some get up and go but not really a bad weather car

Weather and opportunity to drive it. If you live in a place where you basically do bumper to bumper commute every day, there's not much reason for a sports car.

I bought my BMW 335i, which I would characterize as a sports sedan, when I lived in Texas and took it to San Diego. It was great. Not as much fun in DC in the winter. Kids is the other big factor. I'm going overseas and will probably have a friend hold onto the car for me, but there is a concern because you can't really fit child seats in the back.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

2 Door ? I had a '99 323 and currently an '08 328. Car seats were no issue at all. Might have had to move front seats up a little when they were rear facing. The kids were part of why I stuck with BMW. Wanted a safe car to drive them around in. I will say as they are getting older it's a PITA because they are beating the shit out of the back of the car with their feet on seats and front arm rest area.

---

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

I've told my wife she can have any car she wants when we go back to the UK so long as the kids are not allowed in my new car at all

Yes, it's the coupe. Obviously, most "sports cars" are two doors, and don't provide a lot of access to the back seat, making it hard to work with kids, unless you don't really care about having them in a safety seat.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

In that case I'll include my E30 M3 as a sports car. It has one of the best track pedigrees you can find.

I am the only on in my neighborhood who has a sports though.

"What is a sports car?" In the postwar era, a "sports car" was any car that seated two, had a soft top, and could be used for competition. Thus, the Sports Car Club of America. An MG-TC was a sports car, as was an XK-120 or a Jowett Jupiter.
That same car with a permanent hardtop was considered a "Grand Tourer", meaning it would be appropriate for a young man to drive around Europe in varying weather conditions. Thus, the MGB-GT is an MGB sports car upgraded to Grand Tourer configuration.
Therefore most cars are Grand Touring cars, even cars like the GT3 RS or even RSR since they aren't open top. One could even argue a 911 Turbo S Cabriolet is too big to be a 'real' sports car.
Now, does that leave just the Miata? Or is it too underpowered?
Sporty vs High Performance? If you just look at performance, then things like the Cayenne Turbo S or the Lamborghini SUV have ridiculous performance. Is there a weight limit?
Much like the definition of "Sport", I think "Sports Car" can apply to a lot of cars, or technically, just a teeny tiny subset. Is calling a Mustang or Camaro a sports car, ok? Sure, what if it's the 4 or 6 cylinder version? Should we restrict it to just the GT500, and LT1 versions?

two door would be a colossal PITA

---

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

Personally, I think the sport vs. GT distinction today is more about "size" than the configuration of the top. Rag top vs. coupe doesn't really bring much to the distinction anymore. There just aren't many rag-tops anymore. I certainly think the MX-5 is a sports car, but I don't think its the only one. Its more about the size, weight, suspension, and drive-train configuration in my mind. I do NOT think its about "power" or power-weight. Or, if it is about power-to-weight, the MX-5 sets the minimum standard.

Even the 27 year old 1.6L Miata with 120-ish HP is fast enough on a track to scare the shit out of most people. I've given plenty of rides...I can't go more than about 7/10ths with a passenger, even then they are "hanging on for dear life".

I used to have an Acura RSX when I first moved to Canada, my daughter was 1 at the time. Wife and I were separated, so it was just me in the car most of the time. So long as there isn't someone in the front passenger seat, it wasn't that bad getting her in and out. rear facing car seat had a base that clipped in. and front facing wasn't bad getting her in and out of.

coupe is more of an issue when they are older, or if you are routinely carrying more than 2 people.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

My wife had a Celica GTS when our kid was born. The rear seat had that latch system. How much space does a baby need?

Not much space but from what I remember when my kids were rear facing. But getting them out would be a hassle in a 2 door from what I recall. Having to move a seat up, reaching in and unhooking from base and then angling to get it out. Then again I haven't had a 2 door since the early '90s.

---

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

Think of it as crossfit yoga reps.

For me it was the weight and twisting in to a low car

Understood. Glad to help.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

The muscle cars are to sports cars the same way body builders are to athletes.

---

Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

No one is mistaking a Bentley or RR GT for a sports car. Rag top or not

https://www.bentleymedia.com/en/newsitem/799

Not sure how old your kids are but it’s not the size of the baby it’s the size of the seat. Most of the rear facing seats are monsters now and they take up a bunch of room. The one we have in the Grand Cherokee is big enough that the front seat can’t move all the way back.

I have a 1997 328i BMW convertible I like to drive some. It’s old but pretty damn sporty.

It worked in 2000 ;)

With the way my wife drives, yes.

Is a Tesla a sports car? Because that's the I don't need this but I want it car up here.

There is no question in my mind that the stage of life has a lot to do with it. I didn't marry until I was 39, so I went through tons of sports cars and 'sporty' cars. I was active in several car clubs including the SCCA, Porsche Club, Corvette Club, etc. Did lots of track events, autocrosses, and concours. By the time I was in my 30's, I was into higher end cars and ended up with a Ferrari F355. It was equipped with a full cage, fire system five point harnesses, etc. I went to the National Ferrari meet at Road Atlanta and flogged the car for three days on a high speed track. On the last day of the meet, I was in one of the unlimited speed sessions and there was a pretty serious crash right in front of me. The session was black flagged and I made my way back to the pits and pulled into my parking spot. As I pulled in, my wife was standing in front of me with my one year old son in her arms. I sat for a moment thinking about the fact that only minutes before I had been going 165mph right behind a guy that was almost killed passing me going into a chicane. Just for fun. This wasn't a sanctioned race, it was just a Ferrari Club event.

I put the car up for sale about six months later and sold it for $5,000 more than I had paid for it. I stopped doing track events, but I continued to buy lots of fast cars. As the years went by, they got bigger and slower. Now, I am driving an Alpina B7. Hardly a 'sports car', that's for sure. Regardless, I enjoy sports cars and all sorts of others for the engineering and sophistication of design as much as anything. I gave my wife a Mini Cooper with the John Cooper Works package 12 years ago and we STILL have that car. Wife loves it. When I gave it to her, my daughter was about 4 or 5 at the time and said that was the car she was going to drive when she got older. We laughed at the thought back then since we knew the car would be long gone by then. However, I spent the last six months teaching her to drive a stick in it, and it looks like she is going to get her wish! Maybe another sports car nut is being born...

Greg

---

If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020

Yes. It's based on the Lotus Elise!


Tesla S? Nope
Tesla X? No way

That's cause sports cars don't have back seats ;)

I guess I'm 0 for 4.

Good weather? I live in New England
No kids? Nope, a 10 year old.
Lots of money? Nope. I'm not upper middle or upper class.
Bad with money? Nope. I'm not working class.

I own 2 sports cars (Lotus Europa S2 and a Miata). I daily a hot hatch (Fiesta ST).

Is the FiST the fastest of the 3? By far. Is it's a sports car? Nope.

Me, pushing 60 and no kids, pets, or spouse. And the top is down 10 months of the year.[/img]

---

DFL > DNF > DNS

To me, real sports cars were made in the UK in the 50's, 60's and 70's. My brother has a 1965 Lotus Elan, 1972 Lotus Europa twin cam and 1973 Triumph TR6. My best friend has a 1960 Triumph TR3 and 1971 Triumph GT6. Myself - 1980 Triumph TR8 and 1975 Triumph TR7 vintage race car that I'm slowly restoring. I've just been offered a 1969 Volvo Amazon 123GT by a friend who needs the money and will sell at a good price. Not really a sports car but a sporty sedan with a rally history. I am seriously thinking about it. New stuff just doesn't interest me that much.

---

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

-
That is such a chick car..oh wait, well done you. ;)

Unfortunately Mitsubishi killed the best version of the eclipses in what 98/99?

True. The 1996 was probably the "best" version, given the engine and suspension and tuner options. The 98/99 version lightened the overall weight, which normally is a good thing, but the balance was thrown off a bit.

---

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Apparently a lot of the kind of people who own sports cars live in Houston - which, despite stereotypes, is one of the more diverse areas of the US. Probably can’t make many assumptions as to the actual demographics of the people driving the “sports vehicles” as with a few million driving around its as likely to be an oilfield worker, pro athlete, or the really rich oil executive or Dr.

Being a well balanced and conservative driver (British upbringing showing itself) my personal sports car of choice is an MG Midget. Before you say that is not a sports car being underpowered and old (1974 to be precise) try driving along 59 and around 610 in a car that can go under most of the trucks around here and that you really need to drive just to avoid being killed and I’ll show you a car that can be more fun than a lot of so called sports cars that other than on a track are wasted most of the time.

It never ceases to amaze me how good car manufacturers are at jacking up a good thing. They could have easily beefed up the eclipse a bit slid it into the 3000gt vr4 spot in 2000, then come out with the “new eclipse” as their sporty coupe at not a sports car price. Instead they kill the good eclipse model, kill the vr4 and haven’t been the same company in the US since.

I guess they did have some sales of the EVO but that was never going to really be a killer sports car here. My wife had a 2014? MR and that had worse quality than my 91 vr4, and that by itself had some major quality problems with a couple things that were fixed in later years.

A '77 MG Midget 1500 was my first "sports car". Loved it and put lots of miles on it. Siting in it, you could almost touch the ground over the door when the window was down. It was super squirrelly and in wet weather, easily hydroplaned (didn't help always driving on almost slick tires)! I was driving on a highway once on a rainy night when it just started drifting into the next lane at ~55 mph. I just held on til I got grip again and was able to return it to the original lane.

I would often drive next to semi-trailers look at them thinking "I could really just drive under that into the lane on the other side".

I often long to get another, though pre-rubber bumper.

---

Chris
*********************
“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
― Hunter S. Thompson,

I don't think the EVO was ever a sports car. It was the same as the original saloon STi

I think we need some clarity on sports cars. The definition above does not work

A Bentley GT 3r - weight alone should disqualify it

http://motonetworks.com/...-power-weight-ratio/

This Aston on the other hand with a potential 1:1 power to weight ratio is it a sports car or a race car?

What is a sports car?

Clio RS cup? Golf R? Cupra R? Amg 45?

All sporty cars but sports cars

I am struggling here but i think we can rule out the US muscle cars. The lap of the viper on the nurburgring whilst amazing doesn't make it look like the most natural of sports cars from the handling department?

If a car is involved with spec racing, in my mind it is a sports car. The GT class includes Corvettes, Astiins, Bentleys, Mercedes, Viper, etc. Honestly, with British Touring cars and whatever the FIA WTCC is called next year, the list includes hot hatches.

Now from a consumer perspective, you could certainly make the claim that stock, off the lot cars may or may not be sports cars. It is laughablenthat someone thought a Vette wouldn't qualify, but so be it.

In my neighborhood, the only sports cars I see are Vettes, and the classic Ferrari 308 in my own garage. I would put my E36 M3 in the traditional sports car category. Perhaps sports coupe.

Fortunately, being in Houston I can travel to some parts of the area and spot the more recent exotics in great numbers in the wild.

Hardly laughable if up against M series, gt3's or 2's

I literally googled is it a sports or a muscle car

https://www.classicmuscle.com/...les-sport-or-muscle/

I have always thought of it as a muscle car if comparing to those listed above. Then again a continental GT might race le mans but generally they are silhouettes. Only thing in common is the shape.

Anyway. Might just be a European perspective

Agree with the pre-rubber bumper/fender models being much more desirable - mine is the last model year with chrome bumper/fenders.
There is a certain purity/fear with driving an MG on the road these days - you feel that you are one with the road, and very possibly may become part of the road.

Since I don't have the time these days to attend track days (the only way to really enjoy and experience a sports car - or in my old days motorbikes) these lesser powered cars are the only safe way to have a sports car experience on the road. Is my MG a sports car today - not really when pretty much any car built in the last 20 years outperforms it? But it puts a smile on my face and makes me feel like I'm driving a sports car as you actually have to drive it. I had more fun riding my CBR400 on the road than my Fireblade (CBR900) because you could wring its neck all the time without killing yourself or going to jail. Now on the track the fireblade was an animal and a hoot.

1992 built before April 1992 ;) .
Bigger brakes (new for 92)
Bigger rear end (new for 92)
4 bolt mains (ended in April 92)

   Had a friend when I was in the military that was 6'5" had owned a Midget, and said that it was fine for leg room, just had to enter and exit in a specific way to get lower body through the door and in/out of the car.

There is a technique for getting in/out - especially for anyone over 6'. It is low though, so you need some flexibility/manoeuvrability to be able to get back out again.
I never have the roof up - nice weather drives only - so that makes getting in a little easier.

It's pretty hard to label today's cars. Especially with the shenanigans that the manufacturers are pulling (4 door coupes?).

Traditional muscle cars: shoehorn the biggest engine available into a (relatively) lightweight coupe. Handling sucked to begin with (compared to today), and putting a heavier engine in with drum brakes etc, made them mostly straight line machines. The Hellcats are probably the closest thing to a modern muscle car, except that it weights a couple tons. The Demon is a street legal drag racer, so maybe, but it's so specialized you can probably ignore it. Some of the AMG cars might be considered muscle cars (at least some of the early one E class Hammer etc.), since it's a big honking engine stuffed into a small(er) sedan or coupe.

Pony cars, like the original Mustang were small cars build to be sporty. Probably the American version of a sports car, but I think even then they were bigger than a MB, or Triumph. The current Mustangs and Camaros are much more Grand Tourers than pony or sports cars, just from shear size. The higher performance versions are just high performance GT cars.

Sports cars? Miata, Mini, Porsche 917 Boxer/Cayman, BMW Z4, Audi TT, Mercedes SLK, Jag F-Type. Arguments can be made for and against. Some are getting pretty big, but the Miata's performance really isn't up to the level of some of the others.

That leaves a a huge group of cars that a high, super high, and hyper high performance, but generally much larger than a traditional sports car, and much larger than their 60's ancestors. Corvettes, 911's, Ferarris, Lamborghinis, BMW M series, Merc SL.

That also leaves all the hot hatches on the outside looking in. Probably the closest thing in size/performance as traditional sports cars, but just don't seem to fit. Traditional sports cars were near the top in terms of performance, and could be raced with little modification, and modern 'hot' hatches just aren't that hot.

So I just we are just stuck either calling a wide range of cars/performance sports cars, or not calling anything sports cars.

I had a 1972 MG Midget with the 1275 engine. I had it hotted up with Mini-Cooper S competition parts - 3/4 cam, high compression pistons, competition header, over size twin SU carbs, ported/polished head and some suspension work. I used to be able to out drag things like Datsun Z's or even small block V8's at the stoplight grand prix. I really miss that car.

I can afford a sports car if I want it badly and most of the people I work with are similar, but <5% seem to keep one for any amount of time. I had a 911 for a few years as it was a dream for me through my younger years to own one. The reality of the ownership was that I rarely felt like taking it when I was going somewhere because I don't want to get it dirty, or someone to put a door ding in it, or it's too small, or it was not parked where it was easy to get out, etc. Occasionally I would take it out for a Sunday drive but it felt more like an obligation sometimes than what I really wanted to spend the time on. After about 3 years and doing the math on the cost of ownership I decided it wasn't worth it and sold it. I liked the idea of owning a Porsche a lot more than the actual owning of one. I think this only gets worse with higher end cars up to the point where you are so rich it doesn't matter. I read an article about a guy who bought a McLaren F1 and the cost of ownership, even if it was never driven, was remarkable. If your not into tracking it and have no need to impress people then bang for the buck is just not really there for any sports car, unless perhaps if you happen to live in a rural area with great roads that you can drive all the time.

That's the problem with most of today's high performance GT cars. The cost has gotten so high that it's hard to justify owning them, and driving them like they should be driven. Maybe some of the run of the mill Mustangs, Camaros, even Corvettes can be daily driven and even tracked without too much fear of wrecking and exorbitant repair/maintenance costs. But even the 911, which is possibly the most livable 'super' car costs $90k+ upfront, and I don't know what it would cost to put one into a tire barrier.

From all the people who have come up and talked to me while out and about in mine I have never had anyone say they were glad they had got rid of theirs.
It seems lots of people either had one or knew someone that had one.

Mine is still stock - except electronic ignition. I can out drag a few cars for, oh 10 meters (benefit of weighing nothing), before a lack of hp reminds me to sit back, relax, and cruise.

That's a great point. I got into tracking cars >10yrs ago. It didn't take long to see the risks associated with high hp and the minimal safety associated with daily driver (DD) cars, as opposed to a "race prepped" car withe cage, race seat, 6pt harness, Head-n-Neck restraint, and fire suppression. It's still pretty darn rare for someone to get hurt on the track, so statistically, it's pretty darn safe. But it didn't take me long to get the DD off of the road and buy a low cost, low hp, vastly more safe, race prepped car.

I used to do a lot of instructing. I would not have been comfortable with in someone's high hp DD unless I had a lot of confidence that they could keep the aggression dialed back. All too often the high hp car owner is an A type personality that's pretty much only known success their whole life. Then they get on the track with big sticky tires, aero, and handling electronics, and are slow to understand that the car is covering for the skills they've not yet learned.

There were a couple times when I had to tell a student that they either dial it back or the chief instructor was going to have to assign someone else to them. My father died when he was the same age I am now and I have 3 teenage boys. Being in the passenger seat, at 150mph, with some knucklehead that doesn't know wtf he's doing is stressful, statistics be damned.

In 2011 I had a helova crash the same place you were at, Road Atlanta. Some called it the worst crash in club racing that year. A car dumped coolant right in front of me and I hooked into a cement wall at about 80mph. I decelerated from 80 to zero in about 24" of crushed sheetmetal, the wall having zero give. I don't figure I'd have survived had I been in a DD. But because of all the safety equipment, to include the (now bent) cage that reinforced the passenger cell, the impact only knocked the wind out of me and cracked a rib, so essentially, nothing.

Consider how many g's a person has to absorb to go from 80mph to 0 in 24". And I just crawled out of the car, laid on the grass to wait the emergency vehicles, and enjoyed the sun on my face in the cool afternoon.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

I completely agree. I have mentioned my modified Golf .:R that puts down 500 awhp. It will drop damn near anything out on the road today. I have it lowered with racing suspension, a roll cage, and functional front and rear spoilers. But, it still isn't a "sports car" in the traditional sense of the word. Sure, it is a "race car," but so, technically, is the Toyota Camry NASCAR car.

But, many who see it call it a "sports car." Not really. It is a hot hatch, as you say.

---

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

 
Depending on your definition the wife and I own 2.5 sports cars.

1. 1987 Chrysler Conquest TSi with 50k original miles. Owned it for 16 years, it mainly collects dust in the garage but gets out a few times in the summer.

2. BMW 330ci convertible. Wife's daily driver. "Sports car" is debatable but it is impractical, small, and high maintenance so it checks a few boxes.

3. My .5 is my daily driver a BMW 530I. Not a sports car per say, but also not a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry.

We live in Idaho so temp swings of -10 in the winter to 110 in the summer. Snow isn't too bad, it usually only snows 2-3 times and is gone in a week. Still, the convertible is a poor choice based on the climate as it sucks in the winter and it is too hot in the summer to have the top down IMO. March to July and September are nice. But the wife loves it and goes topless all summer long (no, I won't post pics).

We are 32 and 30 years old, and have no kids. Looks like we might not have kids at all, I am ok with that.

One of the big things is storage. Just a month ago we had 5 cars, 1 motorcycle and a boat. Decided to sell one of the cars. We have a large 3 car garage and have behind fence parking along the side of our house. When we had 5 cars we had 3 plus the boat in the garage and two in the driveway, that was a bit much. Now 3 cars plus boat in the garage and just my truck in the driveway. If I had more storage I might have more cars, if I had less storage I might give up another car.

You don't follow WEC, IMSA, or more specifically, the 24 Hours of LeMans, do you?

I'm not a Corvette fanboy, but the Corvette has done quite well in endurance racing against Porsche, Ferrari, Aston, etc.

I thought that wasn't permitted. I did not think you could buy a car outside of Washington and bring it back to Washington. I thought there was a 6 month waiting period or something like that.

---

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Pics or it didn't happen.

The C5R was a beast of a race car! C6.R too, I don't know about the C7R, but the C5 brought respectability to GM in IMSA

Pretty certain that you are not trying to suggest that GM and the corvette have been as remotely successful at endurance racing as Audi, Porsche and Ferrari, or are you? Even if you exclude lmp 1 and 2 are you suggesting that if someone said to you, pick the most successful sports car marques from endurance racing you would say GM?

The only notable exception by a country mile would be Ford because of what they did.

Anyway, it's a bit like arguing how long is a piece of string.

Hot hatches have performance that porsche and Ferraris didn't have a decade ago but I don't think they are sports cars.

Anyway, I said before I don't think a continental GT is a sports car and Bentley don't agree with me, so it's hardly a surprise that GM wouldn't either (or I don't agree with them;))

GM (really Pratt & Miller) have a great record in endurance racing.

Winning Overall at the Rolex 24 (ahead of the prototypes), and the GT class at Le Mans in 2001.

They dominated ALMS and Le Mans for years, killing the GT1 class in the process.

GT doesn't have the stature of LMP, and certainly Audis domination of LMP is legendary, but you can't say that GM (Pratt & Miller) didn't have great success at endurance racing.

That would be 200g if you truly decelerated from 80mph to 0 in 2 ft.

80mph = 117 fps
stopping time = 2 ft / 117 fps = 0.018 s

deceleration = 117 fps / 0.018 s = 6500 ft per s per s

6500 / 32.2 = 201 g

That's assuming that you really impacted at 80mph and you came to a dead stop with 0 deflection following impact.

The highest recorded impact g survived is somewhat murky. But, there's a good argument for David Purley, at 179g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Purley (108mph -> 0 in 26"). Purley suffered multiple fractures to his legs, pelvis and ribs. There's also Kenny Brack at 214g, in 2003.

I had a similar sort of impact in april 2016. Hit a wet spot while loaded up at 2g in a deep camber 100 mph turn. Rear stepped out, caught it but the car stepped out of the groove...off for the ride. Car pirouetted 180 degrees, backed into a tree, was thrown into the air and I landed behind the tree. Measured speed at impact with the tree 55.1 mph, as recorded by my data system. Real impact g, also recorded 20g. So, I shed about 30mph directly into the tree at impact and the balance of the energy was dissipated elsewhere.

I walked away with no bruises or injury. Honestly I didn't think I'd hit that hard, and since all the damage was to the rear and out of sight of my mirrors I thought the car might be drivable and tried to start it and get back into the race.

Given your injury, and feelings post impact you clearly experienced more than me. But, I'm kinda skeptical of the 200g---given that is near or above the maximum survivability limit.

Nevertheless, the point is well made that a 3 point belt (well really a street car safety system) and 150 mph DO NOT MIX. The few HPDE crash deaths that I'm aware of have been to INSTRUCTORS in DD cars. I won't ride in the right seat with a student track driver.

And I didn't

I said I don't agree with how the manufacturers view their cars (and you know how much they care about my opinion? They could give exactly zero f$$ks)

I also said that GM don't havr the same track record as the big 3 in almost any class BUT that does not preclude them from being successful. It's all relative

(As an aside I have been watching dakar this evening and now Le Mans 16)

I have pondered a driver experience day with an instructor BUT the prospect of some clown believing they are Lewis hamilton and destroying my car - which would not be insured - terrifies me. Better to rent a track car me thinks.

I have a 3L BMW Z3. No kids, it's our 3rd car, not our daily driver, and we live in sunny SC, so I can drive it all year round. The book value is just north of $10k. Oh, and the roof stays down. ALWAYS.

Yep. agreed. I would have told you that I hit that tree at 100mph before reviewing the data. Nevertheless, I have a screen grab from my incar video at the moment of impact with my speedo directly in view showing 55.1 on the display. Plus, I have the recorded G-data at 100 samples per second.

But, its surprising how much we slow down before impact, and how much velocity we may still have which we call "0" after impact. Good thing too....I don't want to find out how survivable 150g is for a 50 year old weekender.

The impact that killed Earnhardt Sr. at Daytona is only estimated to have reduced his velocity by 44mph.

My car, like Ranger's is a full race prepped car with 6 point welded cage, full containment seat, 6 point harness, head and neck restraint, 6 nozzle integrated fire system, etc. I wouldn't want anything to do with a high G, spinning, flying impact in anything less.

Do you mean yourself as the student? Are you referring to yourself as the "lewis Hamilton" type? I'm confused, because half of this sentence seems like you are meaning yourself and the other half seems like you mean someone else.

My father bought a 1984 911 Turbo about 10 years ago. I drive it whenever I feel like so I see no need to buy a sports car. Problem with the older cars is finding mechanics able to work on them. The local Porsche dealer only has one older tech who knows the ins and outs of the 70's & 80's Porsches and there is only 1-2 independent mechanics who really know how to work on them. And they are both in their 60's.
The pic below isn't his but looks exactly like it.

I would be a student in my car with an instructor.

I am more concerned about other people wrecking it.

I worked out the math years ago too. The result isn't really believable. So we're missing something. Certainly other folks have survived much harder collisions than I, without much injury.

One thing that's not accounted for is the stretching of the harness and deformation of me around the harness. But I don't know what that would be, 6" maybe?

Back before HNR's tho, I don't know how anyone would have survived that kind of thing.

Speaking of SpecMiata, our class, SpecE30, has just gone to a new, much stouter, spring set. It's the greatest thing to ever happen to our class. No longer will we lose drivers to you guys simply because our car handles like a POS ferry boat. With the new springs the car practically reads your mind. No longer is it an incredible battle of coaxing, cajoling, fighting, giving way, and fighting some more, to make the damned car take exactly the line you wanted. But sadly, there's some availability problems and with the exception of a few test mules, no one has the new springs yet. It's positively killing us.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

2 car wrecks in DE are exceedingly rare. In fact, I don't know that I'm aware of one. This is in large part because DE almost universally outlaws passing in the corners. And passing is again almost universally only allowed with a point-by from the car being passed.

What that means is that the lead car has to recognize that the following car is there, and stick his arm out the window and tell the following car which side to pass on, at the beginning of the passing zone. Then the lead car has to let off the gas (in most cases) to allow the following car to make the pass before the end of the straight.

People who pass outside of the designated passing zones, or pass without a point-by are usually given one warning, and asked to leave on the second offence. Its simply not tolerated---and is dealt with swiftly. Drivers who don't give a point-by for several laps, or who drag race after giving a point-by are treated equally harshly.

So, your risk of a wreck in DE is entirely within your control. If you respect your car, and your abilities, you are VERY unlikely to take your car home in pieces. You are in MUCH bigger danger on the road to/from the track. I would have zero concern about serious damage to your DD at a DE day. I did it for several years. I drove my car to the track, I spent the day lapping, then I drove home. No big deal.

That said, driving a race car is much more fun than a street car--and you will learn more faster. A full harness, and a race seat provide the proper restraint for your body which allows you to focus on driving the car instead of resisting the cornering and braking forces. This also allows you to perceive what the car is doing better, and therefore react more correctly to the early signs of altered traction.

The physics is accurate, IF you really go from 80 to 0 in 24". In fact its really an average G over the entire 24" and can spike higher then drop lower such that it averages out over the entire 20ms. The point is that there is almost always some braking deceleration before hand, and there is almost always some residual velocity afterwards.

True, you didn't say which direction you impacted so I didn't assume you had any belt stretch. For an impact like that, the belts likely stretched farther than 6". Maybe closer to a foot. I hit backwards, and I have a welded steel seat back brace. So, the only impact absorption besides crumpling steel was my rib cage.

Re: Springs: that's funny. In SM we consider our springs to be soft. I was having a coaching session with a semi-pro driver one time. He was telling me "you really have to turn the wheel hard because the SM springs are so soft that you have to be really aggressive with the car to get the weight to transfer quickly." SM is still where its at!

Pretty certain I am suggesting Corvette has been quite successful at endurance racing unless you don't count LeMans, Daytona, and Sebring as endurance races.

You mentioned a sports car must have track pedigree. I would suggest winning multiple times on the above mentioned tracks is pretty good pedigree.
Would love to see the Cadillac DPis to be allowed to compete at LeMans. Oops, another GM product dominating endurance racing.

I never said I was consistent or rational

Anyway. Opel was a crime against automobiles and can't be forgiven even if it has been given to the french

That's good looking

Helpful (thumbs up emoji)

In a standard car class such as spec miata. What's the cost in consumables per season after the sunk cost of the car

I am looking at the caterham academy in the UK. Very straightforward cars but was wondering what sort of costs in terms of maintenance and Tyres over a 14 race series?

And you can put it on BAT anytime you wish to cash in that very nice piggy bank, as these have skyrocketed these last 3-4 years, as have all the 70-80's air cooled 911s.

Right now we are living thru a golden age of new-speed. You can buy fairly manageable 700+hp cars off the showroom floor and they are (mostly) surprisingly driveable. But very, very few of them have any soul, and the weekend warrior syndrome is strong with these (google cars & coffee + mustang crash). I don't disagree with a previous poster that GM is making some very nice sports cars: the two top Camaro & Mustang GT350/350R are world class values in a sports car. Unfortunately you can rent the same body/interior at your local Enterprise in a 6 cylinder and those are POS to DD. But the same could be said for the latest generations of AMG/M and RS from the Euros, though their base models are now closer to Camry/Accord than they were 20 years ago. Porsche is still Porsche, though the 911 is now more of a grand tourer, as it & most of its Euro brethern have gotten simply bigger over the last few generations. I DD an E39 M5, and it is smaller than today's 3 series. With some bolt-on mods + a FS tune it can still drop (or at least hang) with all but the fastest of the modern production cars. I'm going down the JSA route and am building a 68 Alfa GTAm tribute that will have the same PTW of a C6. I'm almost done with a 74 Alfa GTV that is a mod resto. And my summer car is a AP1 S200 that is frankly one of the funnest cars I've driven, outside of the Cayman GT4, but I get to have the top down & I paid $12k for it so on a bang-for-the-buck it is a no brainer. My next acquisition is going to be either a CL S65 or an SL S65, but from the mid to late 00's. They have bottomed out in value (15-20% of what they were 10-12 years ago) and are starting to appreciate, and lord knows buying a new V12 in the foreseeable future isn't where the market is going. The CL/SL AMG isn't a sports car, and it shares more with the modern Mustang GT as a road rocket vs something you want to throw thru the twisties. I don't think there has been this much affordable speed in the market, or a focus on performance, since the heyday of the muscle car (which was about doing 1 thing fairly well and that certainly wasn't taking corners/braking/etc).

As to the OP's opening query "what kind of people own sports cars?": all kinds. While nothing is 100% & there are some pretty broad brush strokes in here, what kind of sports car you drive really does kind of define you (or at least shed some light on your inner soul). That being said, I'm not sure how comfortable JSA is in his corvette when all the dentists with gold chains start complementing his ride.....

---

____________
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." John Rogers

The value in the past few years for his Porsche has skyrocketed. He bought it for $40,000 about 12 years ago. Had it in the shop for a tune-up and the dealer offered him $160,000. The rate it keeps going up is crazy.

That's where the 24" comes from in the math.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

If your car is hurt, it will be on you. Car on car incidents at drivers education events are almost unheard of.

Also, different tracks have different risks. Tracks with lots of walls collect a lot more cars than tracks with few walls. If I was selecting my first Driver's Education event, I'd do it a track that was perceived as especially forgiving. Road Atlanta is not a forgiving track.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Would be goodwood, Silverstone, brands hatch or oulton park..........

Or nurburgring but only in a rental;)

I looked up SpecMiata front springs, which ought to be comparable since we both have McPherson struts. You've got 700 lb/in in front. The only suspension I really know is our own, so I don't have much context for that. But given the low weight of your car, 700 lb/in seems pretty down stout to me. We're going from 315 lb/in to 525 lb/in, so 66% more stiff. Our rear springs are also getting stouter, but the change is less dramatic.

If we put on 700 lb/in springs, I wonder if our strut towers would handle the peak loads. We're already kinda wary of what 525 lb/in might do. We bang our cars over curbing all the time. I've never really noticed how much of that sort of thing the Miatas do. Less I imagine or the car would get pretty unsettled?

Not so much for Tom but for everyone. A 700 lb/in spring deflects one inch for every 700lbs you put on it.

The OEM front spring on a 1987-91 BMW 325i is 118 lb/in. The 315 /b/in that we're walking away from would be very unpleasant in a street car.....brutal on any imperfect road surface.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Point of note. The miata does not have struts, it's double a-arms on all 4 corners. We run adjustable bilsteen coil over dampeners with the springs. We have had issues in the early days with shocks punching through the tower. It was really punching through the hat because the shock pushrod washer wasn't strong enough and would fold. That was solved with a modified shock hat a long time ago. Banging curbs is not an issue for the suspension.

We all run 99 hats and the fat cat bump stop kit today regardless of the model of the car.

The amount of curbing a driver takes depends on the rear end setup. We are allowed 4 different diffs: open, viscous lsd, torsen lsd, clutch pack lsd (90-93 only). Both the open and viscous lsd generally make better lap times by keeping the inner rear on the ground. Clutch packs almost always bang the curbs. The torsen behaves like an open when a wheel is off the ground, so it is a bit of a mix and takes trial and error to find the faster approach at a new track.

I will add that I have a total of 3/4" of suspension travel between the shock body and the bump stop on all 4 corners. I live in the country and do go out for test drives sometimes. My roads suck, and it is definitely a bumpy ride.

Ah so. Then can't compare unless we know your effective spring rate. I did some poking around and found .72 for the Miata and .88 for us.

SpecMiata effective wheel rate 700(.72) is 504 lbs/in.

New SpecE30 effective wheel rate 525(.88) is 462 lbs/in
Old SpecE30 effective wheel rate 275(.88) is 242 lbs/in.

I'm told that one is unlikely to detect a change in springs of <50lbs/in, but I've no experience in that. If that's the case, our new springs will feel as stiff as yours, or almost so. But that ignores the fact that your car is 10% lighter. It's going to be awesome.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

That is a great story--thanks for sharing it.

In HS and early college I had a MGB. I'm 6'5" but once i got in the damn thing it was fine--sort of like sitting in a fighter plane. When it ran it was great fun. My Dad and I pulled the engine and rebuilt it from the crankshaft out. I learned a LOT from my Dad during that father son bonding experience--like several new ways to string curse words together. The joys of the Lucas Electrical system and balancing dual carbs. Good times.

Pic of me and my brother with our respective rides at the time. My senior year in college I sold the MGB and bought a IHC Scout. I sure do miss that Scout--the MGB not so much

---

Steve

Goodness. My father bought his 1974 911 in 1978, spiffed it up a bit and left it to me in good running condition. It looks a bit like the one you posted and oftentimes people have offered to buy it. This car has been in my life for 38 years and I cannot see myself ever selling it.

---

_____________________________________
DISH is how we do it.

Think you might want to get a valuation and check the insurance.........

You should check out Adrian Newey' s new autobiography...........

Genius

Wrong demographic for sports cars.

In Australia you'll find the most sports cars where all the miners work and live.

What turn did that happen on? Turn 7 at the back of the course? Or, the chicane before the bridge? (Turns 10 & 11 if I remember correctly) I suppose it could have been 12 at the bottom of the drop before the front straight...there's a nice high brick wall on the outside of that one.

One of the problems we suffered with in the unlimited speed sessions was the wide range of abilities on the track. There were no driving tests for that session, just verification of certain equipment on the car, a legal fire suit and a legal helmet. As a result, there were guys on the track with far more money than driving ability. I shared the track with some unbelievable cars including one of Gerhard Berger's F1 cars, Gino Moretti's MOMO Ferrari 333SP, and a factory prepped F50 that was supposed to race at Le Mans and didn't due to the privateer racing team running out of money. The guy in the Le Mans prepped F50 couldn't drive as well as my wife. I lapped him about every three laps...in an F355. At the same time, I was getting lapped by the F1 car and the MOMO 333 equally as quickly. Those cars were driven by semi-pro drivers and they were something to watch. We had a couple of crashes that were undoubtedly caused by people driving so slowly and unpredictably that they were hazards.

I seem to remember you reside in the Savannah, GA area. That's where I grew up and I know Roebling Road well. I threw the F355 off the track there a couple of times. Fortunately, no damage aside from ego.

Greg

---

If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020

Crash was in the S's. Read the comments for the details. I didn't try too hard to save it. I felt the rear end giving way far before it's visible in the video. I decided it couldn't be saved and I would instead try to slide sideways down thru the S's. But ABS kicked in and tried to make the car go in the direction it was pointed. The wall. My plan failed. ABS's plan succeed.

https://vimeo.com/33128427


I can't watch the vid anymore. In the second before the impact, as I headed for the wall, I was astonished to see just how fast I was going. You never really appreciate how fast your car is going until you're headed for something. Then it's suddenly "holy shit I'm going fast. This is going to be bad".

We're racing at Roebling Road next weekend. 3 day weekend for me because I'll be teaching Comp School on Friday.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Since we are sharing crash video...

https://vimeo.com/164793791

Texas World Speedway, crash happens in T7, about 45s into video.

Tws was the fastest track in Texas, the only track where the miata broke 110mph entering T1. Tws was the third super Speedway with Daytona and taledega commissioned in 1969 and taken off the nascar circuit in the early 80s. From then until 2017 it served as an amateur race track...always at risk of being sold for profit. In 2017 it became a storage facility for all the flooded cars from the gulf coast hurricane Harvey. Thus, tws is unlikely to ever be raced on again.

https://goo.gl/images/cvQFzN

That's unbelievable

It will take years to sort that out

Here's what a race is like. Lots of commentary to explain the action.
https://vimeo.com/159221010


Sorry man, that sucks.


Our class is pretty tight with the SpecMiatas. We race at the same time so there's been some conflicts over the years. But the character of both classes has kind of changed since the harder years when we sometimes didn't get along well. The veterans of both classes back then were less "social" then they are now. The later generation of formal and informal leaders of both classes hang out together and that sort of thing is a big deal for classes getting along well.

It helps that the Miata drivers tend to be very skilled, which reduces the # of problems between classes. Also, we come down hard on the errant SpecE30 if he plays rough with a different class.


SCCA owns our local track, Roebling Road. As such I used to flag for SCCA events occasionally and I still go to the odd event there when an "older" buddy needs crew. I'm left with the impression that SCCA isn't as social as NASA is. SpecE30 in our region (SE) is the largest group of the largest class in NASA, and we're really tight. We park together in the paddock and hang out together all weekend. It's kind of a big party and some racing breaks out. My impression of SCCA is that they're at the track to win, not to hang out with their buddies.

In SpecE30, if someone comes off the track with a problem, folks gather around to find out what the guy needs. In 2009, back when I could barely change the oil on my car, the guys did a complete engine swap for me at the track and I made the Saturday race. That day made a big impression on me.

In this region SCCA gets huge car counts in SpecMiata and, of course, we envy that. But the fact that they don't seem to hang out together in the paddock is kinda foreign to us. We come to the race track to hang out with our buddies.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Just a guess, it I’m thinking the SUV and Crossover changed cars as we once knew them. The Japanese automaker killed the imports- No more Mazda RX7, no more Toyota Supra, no more Mitsubishi 3000GT, etc.

Porsche had to embrace the trend- the Cayenne and Macan are the most sold Porsche’s, by a huge margin too.

Some sports cars held their own due to being iconic... the Porsche 911 and the Chevy Corvette. Otherwise, not so much. Of course, the new trend is the high powered SUV or Crossover. Satisfies a lot of cravings.

I personally have always loved cars. I have always had an extra car- a sports car. It gets driven little and is for enjoyment only. Rarely is it actual “transportation” in that sense as a daily driver would be.

Some people customize trucks. Some people love jeeps. Others love sports cars.

I wouldn’t say any of those tastes are of a large market. The majority of people have daily drivers and that’s it.

I had a 335xi. Daily driver with twins in the back seat. It was a sedan, which is why it worked so well as a daily driver with kids being a four door. Of course, I added a Burger tuning JB4 and bumped HP to about 400hp. That car ruled. I miss it and want another one someday. Reliable too and just ticked every box in the want list. That car is so great, I would find a sedan and sell your 2 door if you need car seats in the back.

Getting in and out of an Elise makes it a sports car for that reason alone! Lol
It’s a yoga workout in itself. That car is so impressive with its ability to carry speed in a corner. Not even a question that it’s a true sports car.

Ouch. Holy shit. That was a hard hit, for sure. I saw a 308 loose it two turns before your off track excursion. Got it on video. I shot lots of video that weekend at Road Atlanta with a full sized camcorder mounted to the diagonal bracing of my cage. Unfortunately, it is all videotape and not digital. I suppose I will need to take it to a video service and have it converted at some point.

Greg

---

If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020

I think that’s also a good point when your SUV has 350+ hp and it’s set up like a sports car, you start losing some of the desire to have a second fast car unless you just love sports cars.

My Grand Cherokee is 360hp and in sport mode it’s still fun. It’s not the vr4 or any other sports car I’ve been in but it’s still not a clunker car that’s boring to drive.

On top of that you have sedans now that have the HP of sports cars 5-10 years ago and are significantly more practical. My wife has an Audi s4 and all though she would love to have a Porsche 911 or her Exige she used to have. The S4 is still fun for her to drive until we can get one of those and it works at least with one kid. Two might be rough with the smaller trunk.

 
You don't follow WEC, IMSA, or more specifically, the 24 Hours of LeMans, do you?

I'm not a Corvette fanboy, but the Corvette has done quite well in endurance racing against Porsche, Ferrari, Aston, etc.[/quote]

Your question's not addressed to me, but I'm responding because the majority of my job is tied to IMSA. I don't know that I'll end up at every race this year, but I'll get to at least half of them. I haven't come up with solid work reason to to go LeMans yet, but I'm working on it.

That's easy. You're scouting the viability of convincing FIA to accept DPi cars as LMPs to keep that level of racing alive in the WEC.

Would love to see the Caddies make a go. It'll be interesting to see what Joest does with the Mazdas this year.

As I live in Austin, I'm bummed COTA isn't on either schedule this year.

^^^ THIS^^^

I have done a couple DE track days. It is great fun. You learn a lot from the instructors too. After you leave the track, you realize what a waste it is to drive an awesome car on city streets when you know what it is really capable of. Both times I was in a Porsche 911. You just can’t hurt that car. I didn’t feel bad one bit. It is made to go fast on a track!

Do it.

what do you do?

thinking of going myself - that or Paul Ricard for the GP

We do all the tire work for Michelin Motorsports as well as working with their Motorsports Marketing group.. For the last several years the tire support has obviously been GTLM only. Next year, when Michelin gets the whole show, it's going to be nuts. All of our at-track operations are my responsibility so for me much of this year is about next year. I actually didn't come into this gig as a racing guy or a car guy, but somehow I've stumbled into a job that's ended up being pretty cool.

We do the same for offroad through the BFG brand, but with Michelin getting the IMSA deal I'm not involved in that much anymore.

---

Significantly undertrained since 1999

In the US? or Clermont ferrand at Michelin?

Very ridiculously cool

Ok, I'm jealous. That sounds like a pretty cool job.

I saw the tire support at COTA for IMSA. Looked like quite a production.

Is there still going to be a Continental Tire Challenge or will you guys become the title sponsor of that series?

US only. We have a few guys that go over and help with LeMans, but that’s it.

Continental is gone completely at the end of this season. Michelin will be spec on all classes except GTLM. GTLM is open and will stay that way, but it’s open now and all the teams choose to run on Michelin.

I dont understand - what exactly does your firm do?

Long answer alert:

Michelin hires us to do all the tire work for teams racing on Michelins. Right now that's only the 9/10 GTLM cars in Weathertech. In 2019 Michelin is spec tire so it will be Weathertech, Conti Sportscar Challenge & Prototype Challenge. 100-ish cars. Before I started this job and had actually seen what we do I could've guessed, but didn't really know what "tire work" meant so here's an example of a race weekend.

Racing - Next weekend for the Rolex 24 we'll drive 6 tractor trailers loaded with a few thousand tires and a bunch of equipment along with a crew of 20+ guys to Daytona. They'll pull in on Monday. When the teams roll in and start setting up for practice one of the first things they'll do is come see us. They'll bring as many wheels as they're allowed (IMSA defines how many tires they can use) to our "tire compound" and our operation will mount, balance and prepare their tires for the race. The race team engineers will have worked with Michelin engineers to figure out what compound they want to run and we're responsible to make sure the right tires are there. Then they'll go practice and figure out if they like their choice. If they don't they'll come back to us and we strip the wheels of the tires they don't want and remount tires for the compound they do want. When it rains, like it's supposed to this weekend, the world blows up and teams scramble back to get us to swap slicks for wets. For the GTLM class all the tires are confidential so none of the teams have the tires between races. We give them to them for the race and take every one of them home (even the used ones) after the race.

Motorsports Marketing - We also help Michelin with at-track marketing activation. If they have a tent or other presence in a fanzone, or on a midway, that's us. If they have dealer's hospitality, that's us. At some races (VIR and Mosport last year) we'll bring in performance cars and pro drivers and Michelin will do hot laps for different groups of people. That's us. IMSA always has hot laps during a race weekend. We get any Michelin guests to experience that and generally ensure they have an enjoyable race weekend.

Other Marketing - At Sebring this year Michelin is hosting a group of influencers so we're the agency responsible for everything that group will experience. That will include laps on the track (driving and being driven), autocross exercises and all the hospitality and dining for a "premium" experience. There's more here, but you're probably tired of reading.

Yeah. I talk too much. I clearly need to work on my elevator speech or just make sure I only ride in really tall buildings.

It never ceases to amaze me who is on this forum and what they do.

Important question: Will you be staffing the fanzone areas with as good of talent as Conti did/does? Asking for a friend...

Sorry to say that the Conti talent will in all likelihood be replaced by a large, round dude.

Is it your people in the pits taking tire temps etc?

As an aside, for others wondering why Michelin would hire a company for this work, when you see a 'factory team' in racing. It's almost always a race team hired by the factory/manufacturer.

Corvette Racing is Pratt & Miller Engineering. IIRC, Doug Fehan is the only GM employee.

Aston Martin Racing was/is Prodrive, Toyota is Oreca, even Audi was Joest.

That's pretty cool. I know Forza and IMSA announced an alliance back in October.

Those are Michelin engineers. Each GTLM team has a Michelin engineer dedicated to them during race week. It's amazing how quickly a conversation about tires with those guys can leap into stratospheric levels of geekiness.

I bought a BMW M2 almost two years ago. I didn't need a sports car but I was "looking".

I stopped by the dealership and it had just been unloaded, one of the first ones to make it to the USA. It was pretty much love at first sight and I offered to buy it on the spot. The salesman laughed and said that there were eight people in front of me in line for the car. I gave him a deposit anyway (which I think shocked him). Two days later he called me to say that everyone on the list had turned it down because it was a stick....... I picked it up the next day.

I have never regretted buying it for a second. My dad had told me many times over the years that he had an opportunity to buy a M3 in the early 80s and always wished he would have done it. I didn't want to make the same mistake.

I smile every time I see it in the garage. I smile even bigger whenever I drive it. It isn't a garage queen. I drive it in all weather except snow. I'm planning to own it until I'm 80.

That's what kind of people own sports cars ;-)

---

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

I think you’re really over estimating how quick self driving cars will start being available. Given that we still don’t have one fully self driving car for sale. We’re barely at level 3 autonomy, Tesla is level 2. When you consider the number of 10+ year old cars are on the road even if we have those available in 10 years you’re looking at 20-30 before they start really being seen more on the road.

Also there is no reason for insurance companies to raise rates. Insurance rates are risk based. more self driving cars decrease risk of accidents so rates overall would go down for non-selfdriving cars as there is less risk of an accident.

I think we massively underestimate both the pace at which things will change and the wider implications for urban planning

An architect friend works for a Audi partner on the urban master planning of two new cities, one in mainland China and one urban redesign of a US town.

The plans are entirely predicated upon removing most privately owned vehicles, the consequence of autonomous vehicles being no on grade real estate required for parking. Less space required for parking vehicles with no drivers, the ability to call vehicles to get you directly as well as regular public transport links but by far and away the biggest advantage is the absolute drop in number of vehicles on the road.

I currently have one motor bike and one car. Both are idle for 20-22 hours per day most days of the year.

I am sure insurance, taxation and other levers will be used by governments to decrease private vehicle ownership.

My kids are 2 and 4. I don't expect they will learn to drive and I suspect in 20 years the only place I could use a caterham or focus RS is the track

Yup. Your the kind of person that should own that car. Ive always been a car guy. I like working on them and maintaining them. I enjoy that part of ownership. Depending on the car, sometimes ownership is more of a stewardship than anything. It’s kind of a desire to continue the preservation of the masterpiece of mechanical marvel that the car is.

Recently, I bought a 1986 Porsche 944 Turbo. I wanted one 20 years ago and just didn’t get the car. I thought it didn’t make sense given my needs. I bought a Mazda RX7 instead. Anywho, I have swapped all the fluids, I put in a new clutch, put on new tires, new rotors and pads, etc. the car runs awesome. I plan to continue to update the car through my ownership and keep it in great shape. I should add that I was taking the twins to a soccer game and we ended up lined up at a stop light next to a Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4. We toasted the guy off the line in city street drag race to about 70mph. The kids thought it was awesome. On paper, the VR4 should have won, but on paper isn’t a real race! Good times.

That's funny..... because my first fast, frivolous car was an '86 944 turbo that I bought in 2003. It was in beautiful condition, had been very well maintained, and had also had a lot of aftermarket work done to it. It was putting down 320 HP at the wheels, kinda fast:-)

Unfortunately in 2003 I was still establishing myself in my career and money was a little bit tight. Porsche mechanics don't care if they are working on a 17 year old Porsche, they charge the same price no matter what. I did some work on the car myself but it still cost me about $2,000/year for maintenance and replacement of parts that would break. At the time it was just a little too much money and I sold it in 2007. I still miss that car and if I owned it today, 10 years later, much more established and comfortable, I wouldn't even think about selling it.

I'm a little bit jealous. Enjoy your car.

ps. I recently had an opportunity to trade my M2 in for almost new 911C2 but I realized that I would miss the M2. It is all the car that I need. So fun to drive. Fairly unique (so far). It has totally "scratched my itch" for a fast, fun car.

---

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

Q: What kind of people DRIVE sports cars?

A: Bald men in driving moccasins and obese women with more than $1K of high end lingerie stacked perfectly in their cinnamon sache'd dresser drawers.