Is it really a bold prediction?

Dow is at 25k
Unemployment is down,
Income taxes are down.
Mortgage rates are still very low.

Take those 4 facts and any expensive hobby should will do well.

We have a local RD that sold out his entire Olympic distance series last year. He is moving to a larger venue this year to accommodate the growth. Challenge is coming back to US. Who knows what that brings but I hope they are hugely successful this time around. I am signing up for their race. Lake Placid, Arizona and Texas is sold out. Florida is 20th anniversary so it may get close to selling out. It's a good year to make that prediction. These are just a few things I noticed. I don't follow the news like some.

---

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

Agreed. More money to spend means more bikes and gear being sold.

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

That makes sense but didn't tri's last growth spurt coincide with the Great Recession? The reasoning, which I'm pretty sure I read on ST, was that folks turned to sports like tri when they were dealing with financial difficulties.

I wish Dan would have provided more details in the article on why he thinks tri is rebounding. Maybe he's teasing us until after the TBI conference.

Except that logic doesn't quite work. The economic bull run started in 2009, and triathlon's decline has accelerated over the last couple years of that run. I don't see how there's some magic threshold where it starts growing again. There could be. I just don't see it.

I tend to think the trends are cultural, not economic. Marathon running is also down, and running is cheap.

I do agree with the article that triathlon needs to rediscover its grassroots origins.

Mark, you are right on about the last growth coinciding with the recession....also, increased participation by women drove the last large growth spurt also.....and lots of novices on mountain bikes in the transition....we were grabbing people who wanted to have fun and complete not compete. But a good portion of these seemed to do have visited us and then moved on....we didn't keep them in large enough numbers.

I think Dan is a bit optimistic but I hope he is right and I am wrong.....

What has been weird to me is the "big deal, and expensive" trend that triathlons have taken the last 10 years....When I started in 1985 it was a local group (a running club, a church, a local civic group) putting on a 3 sport challenge called a "triathalon". It was lower key and getting 150-180 finishers was seen as a solid field and the local group that put on the race saw those numbers plenty to keep putting the event on that showcased their small town.. The cost of the event was relatively lower because they didn't try to be a "big deal" race, just a local cool challenge that people sought out. We would serve our selves by getting back to this in some events and supporting those races.

I have purposely stayed away form our local big deal Triathlon that is an expensive hassle (even though I can easily afford them) and signed up for races like the local Hopkins Royal Triathlon that is less expensive but put on by a local group that does a great job. Lake Minnetonka Triathlon is another good example that does well.

I love rolling out of bed, driving less than an hour to the sprint triathlon, parking 100 yards from the Transition zone, racing and getting home by noon....Love it!

I actually disagree with Dan's optimistic prediction. I predict triathlon will continue to decline.

I wish it wasn't that way, but triathlon is becoming an ever-increasingly priced sport with a higher and higher barrier to entry, and we're missing any sort of national-headline grabbing status like the original crawl-across-Kona-finish line shots. Furthermore, doing an IM isn't as amazing an accomplishment anymore when Mr. Joe nonathlete from the cubicle next door finished an IM (in 17 hrs) last year.

I think at best, we'll claw back some of the recession-type short term losses, but I fail to see how triathlon grows and includes more young folks at a faster rate down the road.

Same here. I'm a bike racer, and we'll set up a race in damned office park and charge $30 entry fees.

If I want to sight-see or go on a vacation, I'll sight-see or go on a vacation.

Dan has been in this business for so many years and no doubt has the data to back up his claims, however, I am inclined to agree with you in some part. I think the ultra running community are poaching a LOT of endurance athletes nowadays (at least the young ones) as it is a sport I think that caters more to their personalities (social, fun and certainly cheaper than triathlons). I have noticed the prices for triathlon ever increasing and cities seem to becoming less and less inclined to shutting down streets for events like this. I think it will just get harder and harder to put these events on and even more expensive.
Soooooo many moving pieces to putting on triathlons....I am glad it isn't my job. :)

Unemployment has been down, mortgage rates low, and equity markets have been up for several years and yet triathlon has seen a decline over those years. If anything I'd be worried that an expensive sport isn't doing well when times are good.

I think it's less the ultrarunning scene than the obstacle-course type races which are increasingly winning over the hearts and minds of the millenials and other future up n coming athletes. It's a lot cooler and easier to say you crawled under a million watts of electricity and get the quick n easy chest thump than it is to bust your tail for years just to come in the top 20% of a triathlon without a podium award.

Like it or not as well, triathlon televises poorly compared to the popular sports. Ask any nonathlete if they would rather watch people getting creamed by obstacles, shocked by electricity, and muddified in big mud pits, versus watching a pro triathlete run and bike at a steady race-winning pace, and it's no contest.

And don't even get me started about the bike costs. I know I know, you can almost ride ANYTHING on the bike course - mtn bike, banana seat cruisers, virtually anything goes at small local events. But here's the hard, cold reality of the result of the superbike arms race from my middling AG perspective: At the last two LOCAL Oly races I did, in M40-50, literally every single bike was a hot TT bike or race-adapted aero road bike. There were literally NO entry-level bikes, and at least a third of the bikes were wireless Di2 or other shifting. We're talking $3k minimum at those 2 races for a bike - my Cervelo P2c 2008 (which is in great shape) was easily the oldest, cheapest bike in the entire group. Yes, I looked!

Now imagine if you're a curious M40-50 who's thinking about dabbling triathlon, so you go to this local 'small' race, and see the MOPers weaponized with $3-10k bikes. Yikes! Even I would likely think "ok, this is WAY too hardcore for me, ever - those bikes are nuts!" and not even try out triathlon, even if could potentially be good at it. So, yes, I think the increasing arms race costs of bikes def has a negative effect on the sport.

I recall when a Cervelo P2 at $2k used to be considered an uberbike, and that's not even a decade ago, and that price point alone was nearly enough to get me permanently turned off to triathlon (I did it anyway because I was hobbled by a stress fracture, lucky me.) Now a $2k bike is considered barely entry-level - no way inflation is accounting for this new standard.

Race directors and Race series doing everything in their power to make triathlons as easy as possible and less intimidating so more people will participate.

---

2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.

this => or at least almost this. it's not that RDs should dumb down their races. it's that there should be a welling up of new races that fit the changing mood and that appeal to audiences not previously catered to.

so, for example, one example: life time allowing a family to compete in the same wave. that's just one thing. not that alone is going to make much difference. but, consider the gran fondo. it's a thing that sprung up. it's not new. we used to have 10,000, or 30,000, take part in the rosarito=>ensenada, and tecate=>ensenada, back in the 80s and 90s. if you build it they might come. if you don't build it i guarantee they won't come.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think LifeTime has offered those family waves http://www.mplstri.com/race/divisions/....

check out their registration participation numbers over the years.....if you charge as much as they do compared to other local races, it aint working.....and likely not sustainable.

these are changes life time announced mid last year and began implementing late last year.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I also think this series is doing it all wrong...https://www.igniteswimrun.com/minnesota

.....charging to much for entry and trying to big deal in SwimRun.....$400 for a 2 person team?

if this same event was produced locally for $160 for a 2 person team, not trying to be to "fancy" but playing up the coolness of challenge with a post race get together at the local brewery they would have a better chance of making this a success.....how did Otillio get started again???

A lot of races do allow this in the East. My son and I start in the same wave 9/10 times we race.

They charge to much Dan, thats the bottom line....these changes will not make a difference.....

I actually think (and could DEF be wrong about this!) that a great potential, low-investment entryway to triathlon, is to run a lot more indoor triathlons by partnering with YMCAs and gyms with pool facilities. The one's I've done have been loaded with newbies, as low key as you can get from a triathlon, and it's been really fun to see the new ones super excited at finishing the race, as well as some of them even making the AG podium (which is obviously super soft compared to the typical local triathlon, let alone WTC events.)

One of them in my neighborhood is run as a promotional event by a local health club, to get more people to consider joining - I could see an organizer partnering with gyms, running these events which would also benefit these gyms/clubs as a marketing tool and event.

I tried to get a bunch of my M40-50 sedentary friends to try out triathlon in the past year, as several expressed interest. Only a small minority was willing to commit to even doing a small beginner-friendly sprint outdoors. ALL of them were interested in doing the indoor triathlon, which was alas, ultimately canceled by the organizer.

Triathlon may indeed rebound this year, but will it just be a "dead cat bounce"? (An old Wall Street term for a temporary recovery from a prolonged decline or a bear market followed by the continuation of the downtrend.)

Regardless, it's good to see Dan feeling the renewed optimism sweeping the country as we Make America Great Again. :)

I agree and this is why I love cyclocross.

I am new to triathlon. Last year was my first season. I did two halfs (Lake Raystown PA, and Savageman). I guess you would call these small local races. I really enjoyed them. I will be doing my first full this year to meet my ultimate goal. I almost talked myself into doing my own private full because of the cost, buy my wife did finally talk me into doing the official race.


When I everested, I was mostly alone and there was 0 entry fee. I also ran my last marathon alone, two weeks before the real race. I trained for it like it was a real race and set a PR. These races cost too much and now I am planning more and more of my own "races". I will do the one and done Ironman this year and shell out the $700-$800 entry fee, but future years I will be setting my own challenges and my own private races.


I do plan on supporting 1 or 2 local (non-branded) halfs each year and I have not ruled out running an official marathon in the future, but at the end of the day I am a MOPer and I am racing myself, no one else.

---

"If it costs you 30 minutes at Maryland so what" -dwreal

If the customer finds value.

What are races, clubs, coaches, etc doing to provide an increase in value for the customer (athlete).

While I agree the increase in costs has turned some away, I also think many other factors are in play here.

Most notably how will the younger age groups fair this year, they are the most careful to watch with the economy doing better as they are probably the most financially restricted in that sense.

Personally, what I am hearing, seeing, and observing through the local scene here is that logistically it is becoming too demanding for many.

Swim run will fail because of the team requirements. Sounds as good as a teammate required for triathlon. RD's need to off aquathlons more than they push aquabikes now...

There will be a networking event tonight in Nashville with coaches, RDs, retailers, etc to discuss opportunities to grow and unify our community. If you're in the area, and interested, shoot me a note.

With the NCAA introducing a female sport, it should grow the pipeline down that avenue.

I think a few things could help grow the sport:
-Create more competitive short course races. I think many folks compete at IM events because they are the most competitive but it limits how often you can race.
-Create more spectator friendly races (probably going to be short course).
-Short course races are less expensive.
-Create different qualifying events. It looks like Escape series is doing something like this.
-Create actual teams- Score it like Cross Country. have 7 per team, top 5 score. Lowest score wins. This would force people to source teammates and align for certain events.

---

USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach

I agree with this view even though I'm one of the rather flagrant offenders in this regard. The very first triathlon (olympic distance no less) I did was on a beach cruiser I borrowed from my dad with a basket on the front. Seeing bikes that looked like stealth bombers in transition was definitely intimidating. Even if you can get past the intimidation and even if you're just racing to "complete" and not "compete", the current state of sport definitely has a pay-to-win feel to it.

Golf was in a very similar spot twenty years ago.

I don't know. I think this thread has too much focus on triathlon as simply an economics issue. As if it's a widget in Econ 101 and we just need to shift some supply curves around.

I think it's probably more cultural. Triathlon used to be "different." It was cool. Triathletes were cool and different. There was a counter-culture feel.

Now it's golf. It's no longer different or counter-culture.

It needs to be rebranded. Not just tweaked.

It can be done. Michael Marckx (Belgian Waffle Ride RD) did it for gravel. I remember 4-5 years ago there was this buzz about BWR, before it went big. Riders who did this thing called "BWR" were cool. It's what the cool kids did. And now gravel is taking off (though Michael doesn't deserve *all* the credit).

Triathlon is not what the cool kids do. It's what the boring 45 y.o. dad does.

Boring is a good way to describe it, and it’s not the racing it’s how we have turned the training into mind numbing boredom. Now if you want to do a tri people look at you crossed if you say you don’t have coach or don’t have a powermeter. Then if you don’t go out and ride your steady state for the exact number of watts from your coach then you’re doing something wrong.

Tris are fun because you can get 95 percent of the way there by going out and just biking and running hard, and trying not to drown. You don’t need a coach to do that you need to want have a lifestyle that lets you go enjoy a 50 mile bike ride just for fun. Having a coach telling you to do these specific workouts the first day into training for a sport you’ve never done only leads to burnout and boredom.

As a boring 45 y.o. dad, I literally represent that remark!

I openly tell people that I’m enjoying a healthy midlife crisis by taking up triathlon.

I completed two half’s this fall/winter: Ironman Miami 70.3 and HITS Naples. Miami is done. Naples might be done as well, if rumors are true. Conclusion: I’m killing triathlon. If I do a race, the race dies.

Sorry guys.

I'm 44, so was directing that at myself as well... :)

I love tri as much as the next STer, but I'd be lying through my teeth to say it's more exciting to both watch AND participate in than compared to, say a basketball tournament where I can actually compete well.

Then again, now that I'm M40+, I'm really glad I have a less-impact-injury sport to compete in and push myself in, rather than tearing up my ligaments with more basketball!

This is a great discussion, and I bet there are elements from almost all of the posts so far that are true influencers on where the sport finds itself.

I am in Year 4. Year 1 I did a few sprints on a cheap bike with borrowed tri bars that I didn’t use because I wasn’t comfortable on them. Year 2 I did sprint, Olympic, and half. All local races. All with a great buzz. All with lots of new entrants. But there seems to be a drive always to go longer. To turn the training into a second job. To buy speed (as guilty as the next man). To slowly squeeze the fun out of it....

I did my IM in year 3 and a local full last year, but started getting into ultra running events because they are cheap, logistically easy, and it is considered fine to aim to complete at your own pace. The buzz is brilliant. People talk to you.

This year I am trying a new approach. Not going to monitor my CTL or TSS. Not going to swim in a pool once, just going to have fun. I will do events that pick my fancy, but probably local. I will spend hours racing on zwift because it is awesome, even if it isn’t proper training.

Bit of a ramble, but I do think the sport has a bit of a problem with itself. It has lost a bit of its fun. It used to be okay to have a giggle while you waited to start. I recall a competitor with a basket bike and a huge smile on her face. I think when you get hooked on this sport you get sucked towards going long, and then you become a bit of a bore, which makes you a very poor salesman for the sport to new entrants. Oh, that bloke from the office who does they triathlon thing? He has to wake up at 5am every morning to work out before coming to the office, and whenever I ask him how his race went he tells me it was awful and he spent his time pooping his pants in a portaloo.

Both my kids go to a local tri club, and they love it. They both get to race once or twice a year, but it is one of 4 sports they do, and this club exists entirely because of the efforts of 2 people. And for every 10 adult triathlon clubs, I bet there isn’t even 1 junior club. Compare that to cricket, soccer, baseball, etc....

We triathletes are too self obsessed to run junior clubs. That is, after all, lost training time.

Heck, that rambling post almost reached a conclusion right there. I have surprised myself!

I might get some flack for this but I can't understand for the life of me why age groupers pay good money for a coach!...a coach! You aren't going to the Olympics!

That's a fair point: the sport is such a logistical beast that I could see it being really hard to introduce people younger than collegiate. Maybe HS.

I spent 10 years coaching juniors in rowing, and managing a team of juniors is, by itself, a logistical nightmare. Now having to handle them in multiple venues, with 3 different sets of equipment, etc. That's hard. Then there's the whole liability problem of having kids riding hard on public roads. Then there's the question of "when".

I know Jim Vance, here, ran an organized junior program for a while. And did a great job. But it's really hard to sustain, I bet, and not just because of self-absorption.

I might get some flack for this but I can't understand for the life of me why age groupers pay good money for a coach!...a coach! You aren't going to the Olympics! //

I don't think that high of a % of AG'ers have a coach. But besides that, I can't believe they pay good money for drugs, and they aren't going to the olympics!!! Reality is that a lot of AG'ers want to excel at the sport, so they get a coach, read up on things, and stick with it for years and years trying to make gains. Unfortunately a few go the next illegal step to further their ambitions, even to the point of putting their future health on the line..

Why do people hire an accountant when they can use quickbooks?

It's been interesting reading peoples perspective on this. There are a few reasons why the people I know aren't doing more triathlons (that have done them in the past).

The biggest is there seems to be so many more bike accidents now than there was 10 years ago. Most of my friends have been hit at least once (including myself). Add in the fact that you are not as nimble on a tri bike just makes it worse. We need safer roads/routes to ride. I don't ride nearly as much now.

The next reason is there's no longer any question if it can be done and done reasonably well. In other words, when I first started out, I wasn't sure if I could do it (full distance). It was a big challenge and an exciting one at that. It was a new limit to explore. Once you've done a few though, you know you can do it. You also know you can do it reasonably well if you put in the effort/work. It just becomes a lot of prolonged work and commitment at some point. The return on investment isn't really there. Opportunity costs are too high.

For an n=1, I'm running exclusively this year. I signed up for 3 local races for $235 total, all within 40 minutes drive. Everything is mailed right to me, no pick up the day before etc. Fitting in the training is easy compared to Ironman. Other people I know are now doing trail running, crossfit and grand fondo.

I'm sure triathlon will come back but it needs to reinvent itself somehow. I think the growth market is in the shorter local race distances. If I did another one, it would be something like that. This is all just an opinion, nothing more.

This. I was hit on 9/30/2017 destroying my Trek Speed Concept. I'm using the 20% crash replacement discount on a new Domane that I'm going to set up for gravel riding.

I haven't been on the road since the accident. Only mountain biking. I'm doing my first mountain bike race (bike only. not a tri) this Saturday. And I'm going to do some "Xterra" style triathlons this year.

---

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

i predict i'll several of you sad cases in september. you'll be happy cases by then.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

This x2. Plus those races are typically grass roots, often non sanctioned, they allow you to wear what you want, providing a fun experience for a modest and fair price.

Checking in as a boring 44 year old dad and yes I call it a mid-life crisis too! In fact, there is a triathlon club near me whose t-shirt says "this is what a mid-life crisis looks like". I laughed and the guy's wife said "yeah, much better than a sports car or another woman". I tried that on my wife and she rolled her eyes at me to clearly indicate that wasn't a good justification for doing triathlons :)

---

2018 Races: IM Santa Rosa, Vineman Monte Rio, Lake Tahoe 70.3

Things that have massively risen in popularity since the triboom and subsequent decline

Cyclocross (I think this has peaked)
Gran Fondos
Trail running
Mud run obstacle races
Gravel racing/fondos (still rising)
Color/Foam/Themed 5Ks


At one point triathlon was kind of "exotic" and cool, but there are a lot more options on the playing field. I just don't think we are ever going to the resurgence, based on the diversity and because I just think there is a different general mindset in the millenials. They are less interested in pure Type A competition and although they like "experiences" triathlon is not one that seems to fascinate them.

I say this because in bike racing and tris (based on my observations), the masters fields are becoming increasingly competitive and larger as compared to everyone else, because there are very reduced numbers of people under the age of forty who are seriously into competing. For example, I did a triathlon in Bend, OR last summer. I stood on the overall podium with two other masters. This shouldn't happen in a growing sport.

So I think there could be some further decline, but maybe it levels out. I don't think triathlon ever gets back to where it was between 2000 and 2010. I feel lucky that I was at the right age and fitness to live through that and face some great and deep competition.

This

 

If they could find a way to resurrect Wildflower into the current equivalent of the Belgian Waffle ride. It was a triathlon cultural touchstone (Woodstock of Triathlon) at one point, wish I had done back then. Get back the topless aid stations and build the counterculture buzz.

This is so true, well written:

This is how I'm playing it nowadays; I'm pretty fed-up of forking-out wads of cash for 'big-deal' events for the time being (last one was Frankfurt in '15). Getting back to the type of races I was doing 25 years ago feels good; thankfully there are a few still left.... those that survived the growth of big-deal consumerism.

---

29 years and counting

I'm assuming that is because you are better at basketball than S/B/R..

If so, that makes sense. Playing the sport you are "best at" is usually where you can compete.

how much of the decline is fed by the economics of staging one of these races? I spoke at length with the RD of a 70.3 licensed, but not produced, by IM. They had great participation, but the cost and aggravation of dealing with road closures and all the local people having their lives disrupted was taking this guy to the brink. Anything less than a sellout, and I think they would fold up shop.

If the mid sized race is not viable, then a lot of people won’t bother with a less conveniently located race, and the casual first timer won’t say “WTH? I am going to do the hometown race.” This discourages new entrants and the marginal triathlete.

Nope. I'm definitely better at triathlon, where I'm FOP, as compared to basketball, where Im def BOMOP. It's just more fun to be in a team sport competitive, fast paced situation, and I think most people who try both sports would likely agree, despite my love of triathlon.

i also think that tri, at least in north america, wrong-footed itself by becoming too boring an experience, frankly.

i started racing in canada as a teen in the 90s, and distances and formats were all over the place. people wore all kinds of different clothes, rode all kinds of wacky bikes, and just generally had an adventure with it.

but over time things became so homogenized, standardized, and yes, expensive. i'm looking at my calendar for racing this year in switzerland and i don't think there's a single standard-distance (sprint-oly-half-full) race on the calendar. there's some interval supersprints, some draft-legal middle-distance, a swim-bike-mountain bike-run, and so on.

make racing an adventure again and i'm there.

---

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Tri Nova Scotia just released their tentative schedule for 2018. looks like there are 3 new events this year, the last new one is a 2 day affair - women's event on one day and a mixed team relay the following day.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I agree, as a 47 year old dad (and youth xc coach). Observing other sports, running, uncool compared to other sports, can in some instances have a coolness factor associated with it, particularly in cross country. My kids are on a swim team and once you get close to that sphere, there's the cool factor too. I don't know much about youth cycling. The problem is that triathlon has no cool factor, and whatever association is to the middle-aged parent - since there are limited gateways for exposure, so often the exposure comes through parents or at least older people.

I try to encourage kids (my own included) who've done, swimming (team or summer) and, run track or xc, to give triathlon a go. Rather limited success, the avenues are not always there. Too expensive, too foreign, no access due to expensive bikes (and they're not always enthusiastic about racing in their old mountain bike, particularly if friends will be watching). And, probably more importantly, limited cool factor.

It seems to me that to attract that demographic you need access (cheap events and affordable bikes) and coolness in a social type of way, it's what cool kids do (the counter-cultural feel doesn't seem to be as important to this generation I think).

Your comment is similar to many here. Triathlon is old, it is stale, it's no longer cool, etc. Apart from the changes to the rules, I don't see that the basics of the sport has changed as much as people's approach to it. If I compare triathlon now to the first two triathlons I did in 1980, the bulk of changes are on the participant side not the event side. And yes, the atmosphere was different precisely because it was new and there were so few competitors. But that new-status ship has sailed and you can only tweak a sport so far before it is no longer the same sport.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with people exploring other sports. And there is nothing wrong with triathlon remaining a small, niche sport. In attempting to chase popularity, RDs risk losing folks who like the basic format regardless of the distance. Meanwhile, there is nothing stopping people from wearing different clothes and riding wacky bikes...that's a participant choice, not a sport issue.

BTW, I've done IM Switzerland and Powerman Zofingen. I hope to get back there one more time for the Rapperswil 70.3. I know there are lots of other great events in the country but I don't live there and its a big trip. Enjoy your racing season...I'm envious!

I am new to the sport. I am pissed right now at getting sucked into it. The problem is the bike. The gap to be competitive is too big and too expensive. It is frustrating and I should have just rode my POS hybrid bike. My suggestion to the sport is to have a recreational wave or a friends and family wave for people who just want to complete the event. Maybe they could give free beer to the competitors on the course and have a 10am start time.

I have helped produce a couple races locally the past few years. Every year the cost to produce goes up. Add to that more and more events that take up road space, not just Tri's, pop up each year. It's getting very crowded here.

I am not doing Tri's next year. Part due to finances of expenditures going to other ares of my life, part career focus, etc. However, if I didn't have all these other commitments, I would probably still race/compete less than I have in previous years. Nothing is really pulling me in, I want to seek adventure in other areas. I want different challenges.

Races that are fun and different draw people in. Triathlons need to have some unique characteristic and advertise it.

For example, the best race I've done recently was an 8x6 mile trail run (48 total miles). Each of the run intervals started at the top of the hour, so it was up to each participant to decided on their pace/rest cadence. There was also a sledding hill near the start/finish. At the end of each loop, participants could run up and down the hill as many times as they wanted to get the "king of the hill" prize (but they had to complete the loop in 1 hour). There were also 4x6 and 2x6 options, so the crowd increased during the day as more runners joined the race. It had a great vibe during the day too. People brought chairs, tents, food; family and friends came to spectate and set up portable grills to tailgate. And the winner was whoever won the last loop - although the race was more about having a good time and challenging yourself than winning.

BTW, the 48 mile winner was also the king of the hill. He ran about 8min pace, walked up the hill and ran down as many times as he could, and crossed the finish line right before the hour, drank some water, then turned around and started the next loop.

Homogenous is a good word for it. A lot of the races have removed the challenge from the race. The fact that it’s a triathlon is now the hard part, instead of throwing it on a harder course that is the challenge.

Look at all the downhill races for running that are out there now, it’s more important to have a PR course than a fun hard course.

Hello lightheir and All,

'Boring' perception poll (for observers) report: http://www.cyclingweekly.com/...darts-snooker-365046

They left out bowling, curling, birding and probably some others.



Excerpts:

"YouGov poll puts cycling mid-table in the league of most boring sports, less boring than golf but more boring than football, tennis and athletics"

Results of a survey into the most boring sports to watch on television show that cycling is more boring than football, tennis and athletics but less boring than golf, darts and snooker.

The survey – carried out by YouGov in November 2017 – polled members of the British public on 17 sports, asking them whether they found each one boring, exciting or neither one or the other.

Fifty per cent of respondents said that they found cycling boring or very boring, with 25 per cent saying that it is ‘very or quite exciting’. Perhaps they weren’t thrilled at last year’s start-to-finish coverage of every stage of the Tour de France?


American football, cricket, darts, snooker, basketball and horse racing were are ranked as more boring than cycling. [emphasis added]


Formula 1, boxing, rugby league, swimming, rugby union, gymnastics and tennis joined athletics and football as being more interesting to watch on TV than cycling."

---

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

"Athletics" = Track & Field???

---

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Hello japarker24 and All,


"Athletics" = Track & Field???


By the dictionary .... yes .... although who knows how respondents of the poll defined it.

Gymnastics is mentioned in the article but I did not see a list of 'athletic' sports .....

---

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

I can tell you why I had a coach last year. I'm been doing triathlons for 5 years now. starting with sprints. moving to olympic. then a few half distance. then before last year I decided to do a full distance triathlon. the year before training for a half I really burned myself out in my training. so part of my rational was having a coach to help me better manage that and also just maximize my performance. I had planned on a doing one full distance and that's it. So I wanted to give everything I had to train and perform as best as I could for my one full distance triathlon. It's some of the best money I've ever spent. I loved the training program. Loved how my coached worked with me. And was satisfied with my full distance results. If I had the money, I would probably keep up with a coach. Having someone plan and create workouts for me was great.

That you need a fancy bike is a myth. I ride a 2007 p2 that I bought on Craigslist, similar bikes are currently listed for less than $1000 on eBay, and I'm competitive at almost every race I enter.

Having a 10am start time is unrealistic. Cities don't want roads closed and won't approve the permits. At the same time, I agree with you that a recreational wave is a good idea.

In the four years our facility has been around, we just had our single biggest month of new unique athlete registrations ever. I am hoping we continue to see an upward trend. Our triathlon program fluctuates between 80-120 athletes depending on the time of year and general ebb and flow. We have a goal to get that number up. We are also seeing increased interest and participation in our junior program. We had nearly 20 junior triathletes at our training session on Tuesday.

---

_________________________________
Fit Endurance Coaching - Head Coach|Facebook
USAT L1 Coach | BikeFit Certified Fitter | Contributing Writer - Triathlete Magazine | ROKA

Might be less boring to watch than darts but at least in darts pro makes a killing. Christ its on sky sports weekly! There are million $ payouts in darts. Win Kona? $120000.

Premier League
Tournament information
Venue Various
Location Various
Country United Kingdom, Ireland, Netherlands, Germany
Established 2005
Organisation(s) PDC
Format Legs
Prize fund £825,000 (2017)

---

@rhyspencer

Hello rhys and All,

Rhys wrote in part: Prize fund £825,000 (2017)


Good point ...

Well .... there is more to the money equation than observer boredom ..... look at American football and basketball on the boredom chart (keeping in mind the respondents are in the UK).

How about triathlon races getting all that free labor from the volunteers?

It seems triathlon is still sort of unique.

How many other business plans would like to have that to plug in?

Well some do .... college football and basketball ('volunteer players') for instance ....... and college football coaches are well paid.

http://sports.newsday.com/...ll/coaches-salaries/

Check out Alabama ... Nick Saban 6 year contract $55,200,000 not too shabby ......

Maybe if we paid our triathlon coaches better we would see bigger prizes for the pros?

Not likley ...

---

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Or maybe you’re looking at cause and effect backwards. The people who were racing a ton, such as my friends and I were, upwards of over 20 times a year, werent being focused on. Instead Ironman/ other RDs looked at the one and doners as quick money. Instead of keeping the races that didn’t bring in 2000 people a year, those hard challenging ones got cut and the easy ones were brought on that catered to the average joe. This worked for awhile until Tris popularity took a downswing and now they are losing their cash cow, one and doners, and they already lost their repeat buyers. So you’re seeing the market swing that you are.

If you look at me and 3 of my good friends who used to race easily 10-20 times a year each.
Last year three of us did no Tris, just running races and one I think did one tri last year. So In a matter of 5-7 years on just 4 people who were racing consistantly they lost 40-60 some entries.

Slowman is very right in his assessment you want people to come back, and bring this back to an upswing, then bring back races that caused us to want race 20 times a year. Ones that RDs are taking flyers on like alaskaman and such. If I had any desire to do an iron distance race I’d be signed up for that instantly. An out and back swim, flat bike around a lake, and flat out and back run doesn’t cut it anymore.

Totally random thought: The fundamental goal would be to take advantage of the current cryptocurrency or similar hype/trend.

As a simple example, you could have prizes paid in your favorite coin for the top 5 swim/bike/run splits. Someone could certainly come up with a much more creative idea that could potentially broaden the opportunity for more people to win some cryptocurrency. Maybe pay them in cheap altcoins that might be worth something in a year or two.

Note: The late teen to early 20s love cryptos so it could be a way to attract more people from that age group.

Thanks, Chris

No thank you. This early 20 something would rather have real money as a prize.

Or....prizes paid in "Starbucks money" or a vinyl LP of your favorite artist. Also, how about a no lycra outfit required. That could be scaring some people away. Im' guessing you don't see alot of that in spartan races. Back in the day, speedo and shirtless was the way to go.

There certainly is a trend towards epic events. Until that one is done and the search is on for the next epic event. It never ends.
I don't really see a difference in racing IMLP or racing IMFL. I don't see one as being easier than the other. I will work equally hard in both. The only difference is my time in IMFL will be faster.

I do agree that triathlon got focused too much on the new crowd and introducing people to the sport. There is a local series that went this way and lost most/all of their competitive participants in one of the strongest tri areas in the world. They continue with this focus even though their events have had participant drops of over 50%. I took over a local race and targeted the competitive market, introduced prize money, great swag all for a lower price (<$60USD for Oly) (we don't get paid) and our event has grown 500%.

When I do a local race I should be coming in 15-30 place. I have no interest in picking events where I can come in top 3 because the focus is on fun. Bring back the competition. Competition from the front to the back breeds fun and excitement.

Is one of the challenges that the economics of holding the event require a near sellout for the RD to not lose money so the more challenging courses have gone away because the PR hunters and one-and-done crowds wouldn't show up to something like St George because they want the easier venues? Could this result in a lot of experienced people moving on to new challenges?

One thing I find interesting is the extremely hard ultramarathons have had a huge increase in interest lately to the point that sellouts are immediate or they've had to go to lotteries. Granted the field size is much smaller but it seems to me that ultras have become the new big challenge that long distance tri used to be.

There's also the fun factor. I did a tough mudder last year and it's just silly fun being around a bunch of adults acting like kids. Slog through the mud! Monkey bars! Crawl through tunnels! Everyone having a good time and nobody cares about finishing times because there's no clock. OCR is growing a market of letting adults take a small break from being adults and do silly kid stuff wrapped in an athletic event. I wonder if OCR has taken the "neat new sport" slot that tri used to have for people wanting to try a new sport.

I don't thing tri is going anywhere; it's just become a mature sport. I think the rapid growth years may be over and it'll find a level where some years are growth and some contraction but overall we'll see a steady participation level.

Interesting take....a competitive emphasis in a shorter course might be a niche that could be exploited....instead of "any one is good enough" its "are you good enough?"

Triathlon is still cool.
Problem is
1) cost. I can afford it but I prob costs me about 10k in direct and indirect costs yearly excluding the bike. Not many can do that. My local Olympic race is charging $190 this year. I paid $225 for 70.3FL. Makes it very hard to support local races.

2) it’s difficult. People are damn lazy. Nobody wants to deal with 2-3 hrs of daily working out to be good at it and waking up at 4 or sacrificing lunch to get a swim in. Consider that a very good runner who averages 60 miles per week can do this in 8 hours, while 8 hours will get u to finish line in 16 hours in an IM.

3) the swim is a barrier and it deters people who otherwise would be willing.

Here are some ideas I have thought about to increase sustainability for events:

-plan to do the event every other year rather than annually.

-announce new event will only be done for limited years....3 years and done....offer another event in another location for next 3 years....only here for a limited time, like the McRib...get its while its hot.

Agree with #1

Completely disagree with #2. I did an IM on about 8-9 hours of training a week 4 years ago and went sub 11:30 at IMWI. Also people are not lazy if they don't train 2-3 hours per week. However, many feel this is what is needed to do triathlon and that is becoming a HUGE barrier for many.

Plenty of high performing amateurs in a wide variety of sport train under 2-3 hours a day. But yes many in our country are lazy but those I believe are not really involved in this discussion.

#3. Thoughts on cycling become almost an equal barrier for those that want to get involved but only hear about the bike-car accidents?

Unfortunately they don't seem to have learned from Ironman and other triathlons. They are glomming on to the popularity of SwimRun and jamming a high-price tag down the throats of participants by being one of the only local events. Like pouring lighter fluid on a fire, the flame will burn bright for a bit but it will die off when the initial intensity goes away. Why not charge a reasonable entry fee to start with and keep the event low key? As you stated . . like Otillo.

---

Pete Githens
Reading, PA

This is an excellent post. Especially coming from a screen name of Misery. :)

But I think this is getting to the heart of the matter. Triathlon has come to take itself way too seriously. I don't think the emphasis on long-course has helped either. The training is ridiculous.

---

Pete Githens
Reading, PA

The decline also appears, on the surface anyway, to be somewhat uniquely North American. The brits, aussies, kiwis, and european nations in general all seem to be cranking out new races, clubs, and events that are full of entrants and successes. The US stands to get it's butt handed to them at the Collins cup later this year. Meanwhile other nations have talented fields that go generations deep.

---

Pete Githens
Reading, PA

The decline also appears, on the surface anyway, to be somewhat uniquely North American. The brits, aussies, kiwis, and european nations in general all seem to be cranking out new races, clubs, and events that are full of entrants and successes. The US stands to get it's butt handed to them at the Collins cup later this year. Meanwhile other nations have talented fields that go generations deep.


Yes, good point, Paul.

Doubly Ironic, because, arguably North America (San Diego) is the birth-place of triathlon many of the endemic businesses and brands that depend on the triathlon market and sell into it, have head-offices and corporate headquarters in North America!

Anecdotally, I hear and see the sport is growing in the places you mention as well as South America, and Asia (China in particular). The Wanda Corp. bought the IRONMAN brand, with a hope/plan, to really make it big in China/Asia - and not necessarily attaching that IRONMAN name/brand with triathlon.

Part of the reason for the above, is that in North America, we have this strange relationship with endurance sports. Unlike many other countries, they are NEVER really treated-as and looked upon as sports. Notice what get's the media attention over here in Endurance Sports - either Lance Armstrong level scandal, or some guy running a marathon-a-day for a year for some cause. So it's either extreme scandal or extreme freak-show! There is no middle of the road. No coverage of running, cycling triathlon and other endurance sports . . as sports!

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

There you go. Someone finally said it. Fleck pointed out the main reason why triathlon is where it is in the pecking order of sports.

In the USA, the perception(and the reality for many) is that triathlon and cycling are the lowest of the low in the hierarchy of sports. Tri and cycling are the sports you try when you are unsuccessful at the other sports. They are the sports you get into when you are trying to prove to yourself and other people that you are an "athlete." Anyone can train their *ss off, get into good physical/fitness shape, buy some expensive gear and complete a tri/cycling event. A bicycle is nothing more than a child's toy. Crossfitters have the same image. It is all about the training/suffering and little to do with natural athleticism/skill. That is the perception out there.

A good analogy of another sport that suffers from a bad image is Badminton. Badminton is a very demanding sport. It is very popular in other parts of the world, but not the USA. In the USA it is looked upon as as something kids play in the backyard like croquet. Sad.

BTW, don't shoot the messenger. I'm just relaying info.

It's the age-old battle and challenge here in North America. All endurance sports - running, cycling, triathlon etc . . are WAY off the radar screen. The Pro Team sports, cheifly, football, baseball, basketball and hockey DOMINATE all sports coverage, with a sprinkling of golf, tennis and a bit of auto-racing (NASCAR). That's it.

When you go to all other countries in the world outside of the U.S. and Canada, what you notice if you are a sports fan, is that NONE of the big four here, are anywhere! Soccer (the real football) is #1 almost everywhere, and surprisingly cycling in many countries is the #2 sport that is followed, that the media pays attention to, and the top pro cyclists are real stars. THUS, in the #2 slot is an endurance sport - so there is an understanding and respect-for endurance sports, and thus it follows that running, and triathlon, ALSO get a good amount of media coverage and more importantly, get a high degree of respect from the general public.

What's odd is that if you add up all the runners, cyclists and triathletes in North America, the total number I've seen tossed around, is in the 60-million+ range - a sizable number, but it's like, they don't even exist!!

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

i used to think that. until lucas verzbicas came along, and became in my mind the second best runner in american high school history, behind jim ryun. off triathlon training. and i thought, well, that's a one-off. until i started to look around and saw daniel vertiz, tony smoragowicz, andy trouard, and others, including the womens, rising to the top of the running world. cycling? some years back i was talking to (world cycling champ) emma pooley, and she noted that pretty much all the top time trialists came from triathlon.

and then i reflected back to the fact that nobody ever comes to triathlon after a successful single sport career - from any country - and does well.

do you think this kid is does what he does because he can't excel in other sports?

i'm not saying a top triathlete would have been a good football player. and yes, there are good football or baseball players who would have been great triathletes. i just don't think it's quite as simple as your statement.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Sorry, I def disagree with you.

In all the 'major' track n field sports, there is a path to collegiate excellence and even (European) pro circuits that are lucrative. In contrast, pro triathletes make a pittance in comparison, unless you're top 5 in the world.

I def think that in the USA, aside from the rare anomaly, it's still 'go to the single sport and excel' for the truly talented. Even Lucas V - when he went to college, he ended up ditching triathlon to focus exclusively on track n field (whether that was a wise move is open to debate.)

i think you're disagreeing with some other me. not the actual me. i didn't saying anything about being a pro triathlete. lucas v should have ditched triathlon. not because of money or status or prestige, but because he was a better runner than he was a triathlete. emma pooley and kristin armstrong were better cyclists than triathletes. as was lance.

sometimes people do what they do because they're good at that thing they're doing. sometimes they do what they do because they like doing what they're doing. the notion that triathletes are triathletes because they're not good enough to do anything else with excellence is as hold as the hills, and the single sport athletes who've tried triathlon, or who train with triathletes, know better.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think this is a good model, people always like something new. Surprisingly, I don' think I have ever seen this, maybe there is some strong negative we are missing? Even for stalwart local events, it can be hard to keep up the momentum for extended periods, or at least keep up the numbers enough to make it financially viable.

One issues for RDs is there is some capital necessary to produce races and you need to produce a certain number of event with regularity to make it financially viable. Maybe as you suggest, could have "paired" events, with only have one event in the pair every other year. For example, Comrades marathon event in South Africa (which is hugely significant even there), alternates courses every year (it's a point to point), each year they go a different direction.

#3. Thoughts on cycling become almost an equal barrier for those that want to get involved but only hear about the bike-car accidents?

-------

The reason i started tri's in 1999 was converting from MTB to road was cliquey and annoying. So i looked up a triathlon. The local bike club the next year asked me to join bike race team once i showed their cliquey group triathletes are actually good riders. I was rather "FUQ" about that to be honest. This is not to say i havent done a lot of bike racing, that sport has not changed at all!!

Fast forward to now i see triathlon the same cliquey culture. I think that, and the super competitive results based culture thats come with it (like bike racing) is whats killing it. And i think the welcoming vibe of ultras and running is whats contributing to their growth.

Days end besdes the financial barriers etc. The fun of triathlon has just been sucked out.

As Fleck and i have talked about outside ST, I do not believe triathlon returns to growth mode in North America. Not even Gwen's gold in Rio and the epicness of that run battle has made an impression to suggest that IMO.

---

@rhyspencer

I started racing 7 years ago and it was typical M40-44 was largest field for IM events. Now that mass of men are in M45-49 but see no signs of growth in younger AG. Look at the new list for IMTX. 516 in M45-49, 295 in M50-54 and 195 in M55-59...... No new blood entering the sport. Has to come from growth in the Woman field perhaps but for the younger generation it is too expensive and time consuming. People are having babies too later in life..... IM is becoming a "Play Boy Sport".

I'm not sure about North America as a whole, but in the central MS area participation has gone down tremendously. Here are the individual finishers numbers from one of our bigger races here, The Heatwave Classic:

2010 - 421
2011 - 306
2012 - 350
2013 - 239
2014 - 298
2015 - 269
2016 - 217
2017 - 157

We had a pretty massive group in the area racing IM Chatt in 2014, and since then interest in the sport has dwindled dramatically. I raced AG Nationals that year instead to experience racing at that level (spoiler: they're fast). I think after that the majority of the IM finishers here as well as myself reached the point of wondering what there was left to do.

You reach a point in the sport where you're either a casual triathlete with not many check boxes left after your IM finish or a competitive racer where the gap between you and the next guy is so vast that the amount of additional training time needed to jump to the next level isn't sustainable if you want to have a family and career at the same time. At that point you either stagnate or just move on, which a lot of people in my area are doing.

The millennial demographic is what really died. I see the big movement amongst them is something called "November project" . There is likely one in your area . Check it out, take notes. Main reason is their use of local athletic coaches of varying back ground with great social media presence. Also everything is grass roots

good thoughts, but i think another thing that would possibly increase the popularity of racing is if racing wasn't such a big deal.

when i start running as a teen, the local running club held races in the park the first saturday of every month. they cost $2, and were timed by a guy at the finish line holding a stopwatch. no tshirts, no charity, no medals. if you wanted to show up and hammer with a few fast guys, or push a pram, or jog a training day with your friends, it was all fine. hell, when i was in grad school there was a similar series (also $2) of spring and fall cross-country races held on week nights.

following that model, most people could race at least 10x/year, plus pick a few big out of town or larger local races.

if you had simple, short, cheap local tris and dus (and whatever else - runs, rides, skis, snowshoes) you could nurture a general endurance/multisport community. the master's swimmer, or highschool runner, or skier, that has an ancient schwinn 10-speed in his garage, might jump into that kind of tri for a cool challenge. but he's not paying $350 to do a branded 70.3 that's 150 miles from home.

i feel like we've increasingly tried to convince people that racing should be expensive and infrequent and complicated and high-commitment. i think it should be the total opposite.

-mike

---

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Love it. Is the goal to get the most people doing tris or to get the most $ from people doing tris? :)

When we have situations like the Moats' bust, which took decades to finally happen, I think a lot of athletes are going to pass on triathlon. He is not an isolated case, lots of cheaters out there I fear.

Dan said in his article winners will be "those who produce good and safe events"....and then I read from like 10 people "back in the day it was so easy and cheap to do races"....so my question becomes, how do you as a RD produce good and safe events when you have the logistic issues that you have in our society in 2018. 30 years ago, yall showed up and S-B-R no matter what the conditions. 6' swells? Yall just did it, you didn't debate it, you didn't worry about water safety, you just pulled up your big boy pants and raced.

So my question becomes, is the answer to go rural only racing to cut costs and simply "race" and not worry about all the permits, etc....just do the bare minimum to get the race off the ground. Which I think is going to be targeting experienced athletes, as large majority of 1st time triathletes want some type of pool type of event, to "get through it" and then move into OW swim venues.


About 2.5 years ago here in Raleigh which is a very thriving multisport endurance community, there was about a 1 year time line where about every 2ish months, there was an actual free triathlon/duathlon.....transition area, course, etc., that was basically out in the rural area and basically RD didn't get any permits, simply showed up race, and left (they may have rented the transition area, but there were no cops on the course, just a few signs for the bike course etc). It was a great thing, and wanna know how many people showed up for those races? Not even 60 people on average. Maybe it was poor marketing, maybe the wrong person running it, etc., whatever the reason, no one showed up for these events. And they were FREE, just sign the waiver. And Raleigh has a ton of endurance athletes.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Running now has Parkrun http://www.parkrun.us/

a free 5K every week....I plan to hit up a few this spring and have already volunteered at one because I believe in it.....a Triathlon equivalent?...its going to be tougher to pull off but I am not saying it couldn't be done.

agreed, multisport is logistically more complicated (and therefore possibly more expensive). i used to put on a swim/run duathlon in a local park that was cheap as chips, though. it can be done.

more to the point for me is creating a sport that generally 'athletic' people can hop into without huge expense or commitment. again, i'm imagining the guy who plays rec league soccer, or who's keen on nordic skiing or something, and has an old half-decent road bike in the garage. he'll show up and race something local, cheap and low-key, that's short-to-middle distance. he'll do it with a buddy, or as cross-training, or whatever. i know because i got those people out to my race.

but that guy just isn't going to drive a few hours down the road to do a big branded m-dot race with 1500 other people on $8000 bikes and stuff.

anyway, i'd love more off-brand, off-distance, off-format options. i like those and i race 'em.

---

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I am so glad someone brought up parkrun (always lowercase). I helped start the one in Clermont, Florida 4 years ago. While we haven't increased dramatically in numbers, we have given a lot of people a starting point. We've had quite a few 40 min 5kers break 20 min, get into triathlon, and join the community. parkrun has a community feel and a low barrier to entry, so it's great for families, kids, single people, older people looking to be active. For many people one of the highlights is post run coffee and breakfast and getting to know each other.
I know of about 5 starting in the US in the near future, many were added last year in US and Canada too.
10-20% of our participants weekly are foreigners on vacation who want to visit a parkrun. parkrun tourism is an actual thing too. Many of our regulars have participated in parkruns across the globe in their travels.
I think this movement can directly impact the lifestyle piece of endurance sports and create a movement of participation again. I do not think triathlon is going to be the catalyst if triathlon is to rebound.

https://www.wsj.com/...-run-a-5k-1499697587

---

http://www.GearforMultisport.com

Zero entry fee, thats correct. Does the Nepalese government still charge $11k as a royalty fee for climbing. Which they claim goes to the sherpas but it doesn't. Lets say you wanted to hire your own sherpa, (which you said you were alone and maybe you didn't do) the cheapest I saw was roughly $3k. Not to mention the countless thousands of dollars in equipment.

Ohh yeah, I forgot about the cost of an expedition. Another $10k or so.

I'd assume you didn't walk there. A grand on a plane ticket.

Anyway you get my point. While it didn't have an actual entry fee. It cost you a lot of money. Which gets back to a lot of peoples beef with and reasoning for the downtick in triathlon.....that shits expensive.

But maybe it's not and I've been living under this misconception for my adult life, that this whole time I could have gone and crossed that off my bucket list, failing to do so because I simply thought that I didn't have the money

---

_________________________________________________
When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey

I suspect he's talking about everesting on a bike, as in riding laps of a hill until you've climbed as much vert as Everest is tall

https://everesting.cc/everesting/

That’s a thing?

I stand mistaken then

---

_________________________________________________
When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey

Yeah, I have a buddy who's all about that stuff. Did that for a total of 10,000 meters. Absolutely nuts

wow, you nailed my story to a tee. I love riding my bike, but don't feel safe enough to ride 3-5 hours on the roads by myself. Plus running races are just simpler to manage, even if you have to travel. For now my line has been I want to race another IM, but don't want to train for another IM. FWIW I did a 50 mile ultra for the challenge. It was a challenge, but not so much fun.

I'm planning 2 marathons and will look for a few summer races, 5k, 10k and tri's. But it's been a real bummer with our main local race (The Columbia Tri) cancelling for the year and likely forever. I hope Dan's right and that Tri comes back big time.

---

Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe

So I'm square in the "old guy/dad" demographic of 40 with 3 kids and have been on/off again in Tri for the past 4 years or so, with an Oly being my max distance. I like that its something "different" from running and keeps training more interesting, and let's someone like me who can't compete in pure cycling events do something "competitive" on the bike.

It seems Tri used to be the place for folks that we're semi-competitive runners who wanted to try something new and different. Now a lot of that demographic seems to go to adventure races, ultras, etc. for the reasons folks have already articulated.

The main challenge I see is that Tri has lost its "soul" and become too clinical. One of the most fun races I did was at our community YMCA. It was a sprint with a pool swim, and the start was down the water slide into the pool, and there was a DJ and beer tent at the end. The average person looks at that and says "Hey, I'd give that a try, looks like fun" while that same person looks at Triathlete Magazine and concludes they need an undergraduate degree in Exercise Biology, $15K worth of equipment, and need to commit to a "real" race of at least 70.3 as minimum requirements for entry. Wanna start running? Grab your shoes and here's Couch 2 5K. Wanna start tri? Go grab a power meter, hire coaches, and live a monastic existence for 11.6 months of the year.

Even your "serious" running events have people in wacky T-shirts, a brewery tent at the finish, and whatnot, while everyone in Tri these days looks like they came off an assembly line where they traded in their personality for things made of carbon fiber.

Tri will never get mainstream TV coverage in the US (I used to ski competitively so I know the feeling of not being a 'real' athlete since you're not on TV all too well) but I don't think that's what gets you participants in a sport. American Football and NASCAR don't have millennials and dads putting on shoulder pads or doing high-speed laps at the mall. I'd love to see organizations like the YMCA running community-based sprints that are serious enough that it feels like an athletic accomplishment (vs. being electrocuted and getting muddy) but not so serious that it demands you become a bore.

This.

---

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Slappy,

I agree with you assessment of the current state of triathlon in the U.S. but there are plenty of the low key Y type tris in Ohio. Should we try to prevent people who are interested in continuing in tri from progressing to becoming, in your words, a bore? Will triathlon really become more healthy financially if most triathletes are mainly interested in doing several low key Y type tris each summer? I'm moving in that direction after being an IM-fixated "bore" for more than a decade (and having started back in the day as a runner looking for something different), but my decision to do a half-dozen fun, low-key sprint tris on a 18-year-old bicycle with no desire for coaching or the current training technology isn't really improving triathlon's bottom line much, as least I don't think it is.

Amen to that - especially saturday morning races so you can still enjoy the weekend.

Astute observations, all.

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

No way, and I certainly don't want to insult people that compete at the highest levels... I greatly admire those who do and their dedication. However, I keep going back to running since that's what led me to tri and still the sport where I participate in more races than tri. Most races have a small segment of top-tier competitors, but that coexists with the chubby dudes like yours truly who are gunning for a PR and are probably at the beer tent rocking to the band with 90% of the participants post-race rather than watching the awards ceremony. No one is looking down on the noobs and both groups happily coexist at most races, and I'd guess both groups feel like their needs are being met.

If you look at the running magazines and web sites, they're mostly targeted toward that 90% and convey a "Hey couch surfer, you can do this too" kind of vibe. Just look at magazine covers and see the language that's used ("better foods for better miles" vs. "Fueling").

I don't really know the economics of amateur sports, or how profits on a mid-tier marathon compare to a similar HIM/IM, but it seems like running has an event calendar and general "vibe" with relatively low barriers to entry, and a gradual, sliding scale of participation, from walking/jogging your local turkey trot to coaching, track work, and gadgets to compete at the top tier, but there doesn't seem to be an unwritten pressure that the former must become the latter in order to be a "true" participant in the sport, which is the vibe of tri. I don't know if there's some organization or "running illuminati" that thinks through all this or it just happens organically but I'd think you could successfully straddle both worlds in Tri, and that rising participation would lift all boats.

When you write that folks at tris appear to be "looking down on the noobs" what do you specifically mean? Is it related to equipment, fitness, both? I see plenty of chubby dudes at the tris I currently do and have done, including WTC events.

Certainly there are lower barriers to entry in running compared to tri and that is never going to change.

I think that based on most events, magazines, marketing etc. newbies have the idea that they need all this crap that the industry pushes to give it a go. I believe a lot of folks are worried about looking stupid and that they will fail. Can it be done? Absolutely! For what it is worth my very first Tri was and IM that i did on a bit of a dare. I bought a used wetsuits from the classifieds (I know I am dating myself) and an entry level Cannondale road bike with triple ring and clip on bars. No coach, no fancy nutrition products, etc. Now I am not fast but certainly faster than the average person but I finished and had some fun. I have been a competitive sports guy most of my life so I am not particularly intimidated, nor do I generally care what others think. That said, i definitely had the cheapest bike on the rack, a shoddy looking swim set up and was probably the only guy at the race meeting in jeans and a concert jersey. Yes - all the fancy gear and 2000 people walking around in Spandex and compression socks and logo'd up with all the latest products is totally scary to a lot of folks who might have a thought about trying.

Maybe as Slappy stated above the waterslide is where its at - especially for young kids. Why not have a waterslide, everyone has to ride a bike with a banana seat and clothes pinned baseball cards in the spokes and run backwards the last 250m. Maybe this will take away the intimidation. Running has done this with fun 5ks, colour runs, Rock'n Roll, Turkey trots etc. You can still race if you want but most are out for fun and it keeps participation high.

I'd say the "looking down" is largely related to equipment. Show up with a ratty mountain bike at the average event and you'll get some looks. Heck, I even get comments like "You know you can add aero bars" when I show up with my relatively modern and nice Felt AR5. Even if you don't get any looks or comments I was pretty intimidated when I showed up at my first sprint with a 20 yo steel road bike that I had to rack next to what looked like alien motorcycle spaceships at the time.

To mitigate this, I'd love to see some sort of "branded" sprint series. Call it the Tinman or something wacky. License it to RDs for free, but demand that they agree:

1) No fees above $100
2) Pool swim of 1-400 yards
3) Have a special USAT registration that's free and basically just gets your email address so you can start to share info with the noobs
4) A cheeky list of bike rules like No carbon fiber, must cost less than a used 2008 Honda Civic, less than 11 speeds or similar... you could even have a beach cruiser-only race, or charge $150 and include a $100 Chinese road bike from Walmart in the entry fee. Get creative here...
5) Give people a Tinman medal at the end, maybe it's a little heart or something. I hate participation awards as much as the next guy, but I still remember my first half-marathon medal and it felt like something I "earned" since HM isn't just something the average joe can do without some commitment and training. Even with a light-hearted spirit and related rules doing a sprint-distance tri is still something that's non-trivial for the average couch potato and deserves some recognition.
6) Maybe you even do something sacrilegious like run the event backwards (R/B/S or R/S/B) so people can start the run with their buddies and have a friendly face with them through T1.
7) Have a "Tri Ambassador" at these races that walks around and helps tell you were to go, how to rack, etc. and ideally wears a goofy shirt or clown hair or something ridiculous to lighten the mood and make them easy to spot.

Build some C25k-style training programs around this that don't go beyond the level of detail of "Swim hard for two laps, easy for the next", and make the next logical progression a sprint with open water that's draft legal and bans TT/Tri bikes so everyone is on a road bike. The noobs won't draft and don't get intimidated by spaceship bikes, while the vets get something interesting (draft legal).

Approach local cycling, running, and swimming groups and pitch tri as a way to cross train and have some fun and adjust the messaging/vibe around tri as discussed.

I'd bet 75% of mildly serious runners own a bike that's collecting dust, and would give tri a try if they saw itas a logical progression versus some completely different beast.

I would disagree slightly on the point that the same pressure to go long (when are you going to run a marathon?) exists in running, and there is a sense that you aren’t a real runner unless u run marathons.

https://www.runnersworld.com/...-is-freaking-awesome

It’s the mentality that makes people say “im ONLY doing the sprint” or I’m “JUST running the 10k” as if those versions are less impressive.

My first Tri, marketed as a beginner sprint was met with this kind of reception.

Forecast was rain, so I used a 5 gallon bucket as a transition bag to keep my stuff dry. Doubled as a seat as well. Another female newb next to me at the rack had the same idea. While we were getting ready, we had at least 2 separate passersby tell us to bring a proper transition bag for the next one. Then a Carbon Commando tried to bully 2 young females out of their assigned spots on the end of the rack. I told him to take his stuff and find his spot. He resisted. I told him if he didn't leave, I would break off his seatpost, impale him on it, and take him and the bike to a marshal. He took his bike and left. After the race, I was sitting at a table chowing on the food. Some people sitting at the table asked how my race went. Found out I was a first timer and wanted my opinion. I said it did not do much for me. I said, "but if it did is there some kind of weekly series/league that I could sign up for?" The guy sitting across from me says, "why would you want to do that? A Sprint is just a beginner tri. You are not a real Triathlete until you have done an Ironman. You need to sign up for one, get a coach and start training."

I kid you not.

I thanked him for the info and headed to get my stuff. As I am walking to the car with my bucket and bike, I catch up to the other newb with the bucket. We are sharing thoughts. She enjoyed the racing part and the training, but not enough to overcome the negative vibe she felt at the event. She doubted she would do another. As we get close to the parking lot we ge passed by a youngish couple dressed head to toe in IM sweats/headgear carrying IM backpacks. Did I mention it was around 90 degrees by that time? They mention in passing that 5 gallon buckets are not good transition bags. The other newb and I look at each other and shake our heads.

I kid you not.

Triathlon is very pricey and there is a large element of look at me types. There are also lots of really good people out having a good time being really nice and helpful.

The not so good element makes things a bit awkward for new entrants. People standing around talking about their awesome FTP, how this is not their A race, how good they are and you pay loads of money for it.

The kind of behaviour where people try to push others around openly as above or rack in another persons spot, move others people stuff around, don't give way to anyone in the transition areas. Just adds fuel to the fire that triathletes are knob jockeys

That sounds extreme! I dont know if it is a cultural thing or not though? Having to feel better than others...
THe races i have done, from sprint to IM have only been positive people. People might be very focused if they are serious and thus not that talkative, which is fine.
But i have never ever heard people talking down on others, e.g. people with road bikes in non draft legal etc. People in general know that you do a triathlon for different reasons, a sprint might be hard for some. For alot its not about competing with others as it is to compete with yourself. Or it might just be a thing at the end of some training done. E.g. we have quite a few mothers in our club, and i'm so fucking impressed that they have the time/motivation to train for a triathlon while having smaller kids too!

I actually would not want to be racking next someone using a 5 gallon bucket if the space on the rack is tight. If your bucket was placed at the end of the rack opposite to the egress/ingress side, that's cool. But if you put it next to the bike, you are likely taking up someone's space.

---

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

There are jerks everywhere, although I don't think I've ever had that experience, people are generally pretty nice to me (and I try to be nice to them). The "not a real triathlete til Ironman" thing is annoying and off-putting to newcomers as well as people who've been in for a while and have no desire to do said Ironman.

That said, the bucket in the transition area is a no-no. It's very likely to get in someone elses way, if it gets knocked over or kicked into the path it can be a hazard to people running through, etc. The race organizers should have made that clear in the race packet and before the race as you are setting up. If they didn't, that's their fault, but in general, no buckets in transition is a good rule.

You don't need a fancy transition bag (I usually just use a mesh speedo swim gear bag, I got it for free but I think they sell for about $15-20. Get to transition, lay out towel, dump everything out and then organize. put stuff I don't need during the race back in the bag an go stash it somewhere til after the race.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

At a local Sprint/Oly, If you're packing people in so tight that a 5 gallon bucket (11.8" wide) can't fit in somebody's transition space, you're doing it wrong. Get some more racks. Beginners are going to take a little more time in transition; give them a little more space so they can be comfortable. Might be the difference between a one-and-done or a repeat customer.

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

all depends on the race, how many volunteers they managed to recruit to help set up and tear down, how big the area available for transition is, etc. some are tight, some aren't. smaller races typically have fewer racks available, less fencing for the transition area, and tighter budgets to work with.

I will add that most local races I've done pack the transition pretty tight. There isn't enough room for everyone to bring a 5 gallon bucket. And the way I think of it is "what would it be like if everyone did this thing?"

even if there is "space", it's a large hard object that can get kicked around and impede others or cause accidents in the transition area.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I'm a long course guy and I use my IM backpacks for transition ... why not? Should I throw them away? That said, I do the occasional local sprint tri and the pain of short course is very, very real. The difference between a sprint and an IM is that the former is like an hour of intense agony while the latter starts out easy, then begins to feel like a tooth ache coming on and ends up feeling like a root canal. Real triathletes can pick their own poison...neither is easy if you are giving your absolute best.

That said, I came to full time triathlon after decades as a runner. My initial thoughts in joining the tri community was that runners were easier going than the tri-crowd although I have become friends with so many great people over the years. But my wife's viewpoint was exactly the opposite of mine. As a spectator/sherpa she has always said that the tri-spouses and race scene was much, much more friendly than the running race crowd.

As to the buckets - I see a few at every local race. They aren't banned by our local RDs, and they are definitely poor transition choices, but I would never say a thing. There are douches in every sport...you just happened to meet a few on your time out.

I wish I could say the same for some of the experiences I've had at a whole host of races. I have definitely experienced some very negative people. Some people who try to act like elitist and quite frankly think they're better than you. Which isn't all bad because when you kick the Daylights out of them it feels extra good. But at One race that I was just spectating I saw a woman in a trek speed concept do nothing but talk down blatantly to people who are on road bikes my wife being one of them. But like I said when she ended up pushing that Trek speed concept up a hill in all her Ironman swag it brought a huge smile to my face when my wife passed her.

Well considering that a 5 gallon bucket is about the same dimensions, maybe smaller than transition bags such as this one:
https://www.ironmanstore.com/...pack-gray-black.html
or this one:
http://www.elite-it.com/...nsition-area/tri-box
I could keep listing others, but that argument doesn't hold water. Those real transition bags can cause the same problems as the bucket. I didn't lay my stuff out because of the rain. It all stayed in the bucket. The bucket only took up a 11.5 inch circle. That is a lot smaller than they typical layed out setup. In fact, if you look at this image, you see how much space a bucket takes compared to the rest of the setup.
https://www.google.com/...mgrc=iqR1FlWKl3w8RM:
About all you can say is that the bucket might roll. but the same will happen to one of those transition bags if it is kicked or windy. A 5lb weight, which was in the bottom of the bucket took care of that.

often the races don't allow a bag of any sort in the transition. You take your stuff out, lay it out on the ground (on a towel), so the only space you need is literally the width of your handlebars.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I've always just used my old 40L mountaineering rucksack - remove the frame and it rolls-up into a street wear bag if required. I've never understood people balancing the big plastic box, or spening $150 on a Tri specific bag.

---

29 years and counting

Welcome to the triathlon community. So sorry you had a negative first experience. Please don't leave us quite yet. Most of us (*most*of the time) are really pretty nice. Of course there are a few bad apples, but it really is a great community and promotes a heathly fitness lifestyle that is very rewarding.

Where are you located? Just wondering.

Again, welcome and please give the tri community another chance!

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

I think it is more a cultural thing that has evolved as the sport has evolved. Which goes hand in hand with some of the comments up on the thread about "soul," fun, etc. Let me share the "positive" people experience from that tri. The race organizers had a pre-race bike ride the weekend before the race. My "tri" bike is a 1987 Centurion Dave Scott Ironman with the awesome Fushia and Maize paint scheme. I am rolling out slowly on the pre-ride enjoying the scene around me. This pack of young geared up hardcores come slowly passing by. They are looking at me/bike and giving me a mean sneer. The last rider looks to be about my age. (50s) He is some type of mentor/coach. He takes a look and says, "sweet bike! I used to have one of those." He then tells the group to slow down and let me pass so they can take another look at the bike. As they go back by, I latch onto the back. The mentor/coach begins this history lesson on the sport of Tri. He's telling them about how it all began. He's telling them about Dave Scott, Scott Tinley, Mark Allen, Scott Molina, Mike Pigg, etc, etc. He's telling them about how the bike I am riding helped make the sport what it is. Those sneers changed to grins and questions back to the mentor. The group eventually got serious and rode off. That history lesson probably did more for that pack of youngsters that day than the training ride. The sport needs to get back to where it came from.

Now for what turned out to be the most fun part of the whole event. The race was on a Sunday. They had a pre swim on Friday evening. The swim was in a river with a current. On the pre swim, we were supposed to go in at the exit point, swim up current to the start point, then swim back. 650M swim. There had been a lot of rain. The river was up and the current was strong. The current was so strong that the swimmers were not making any progress. It was awesome, like swimming in a Swim Spa! Only 5-10 swimmers made it to the start point/turnaround point within 30 minutes. Most had not gone over 100 yards. I made it about 50 yards. I would swim for 5 minutes, look up and still be about the same place. The swim director blew a whistle after 30 minutes and told everyone to turn around and come back. It sure made for an easy swim during the event. If you had trouble, you could just float and make it to the exit point easy. After that Friday swim, the rest of the event was fairly dull.

Nice ride! I wanted one of those back in the day. Nice bike, hope you were wearing your Bell V1 Pro, mesh backed cycling gloves, and Oakley Factory Pilots to complete the look.

I didn't get the Centurion, but I did get a purple Miele in about '88 or 89, with white Sante' components.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

That tends to be true in the larger races. But at the local races in my area you see the buckets, the pans of water for rinsing feet, and all manner of stuff ... it doesn't phase me at all as long as the person doesn't take any of my space or isn't pushing bikes down the rack to make room for their camp. :)

Purple with white Sante, styling! Do you still have the bike? One of my customers was a real hardcore tri athlete. Married/ no kids/wife triathlete as well. He is 51 now. About 3 years ago his job changed so that he could not put the effort into Tri anymore. The Tri club that he belonged to had a group of people that were in the same boat. The interest was waning and they didn't know what to do. They ended up pulling out/finding old steel bikes, putting 1X on them, and making everyone in the group run very similar wheel/equipment setups. Basically created a "Merckx" group within the Tri club.The equipment issue was eliminated with a focus on the athlete instead.Times were not important. The only thing that was important was beating the others in the group and the needling/trash talk that goes with it. The group enjoyed a renaissance and became a popular part of the Tri club. It kept a lot of their members in the sport.

For those higher ups reading this thread, I think there is a niche/need there. It doesn't necessarily have to be "vintage" Merckx. More like Weekend Warrior. As it is, everyone has to race open class equipment wise. People don't want to be racking their bike staring at a Diamondback Andean knowing they are going against that rider.

I wish I still had it, but no... It was actually a size too big, replaced it in the early '90's with a Serotta. Still have that one hanging in the garage. Just needs a couple of parts to get it back on the road.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

If there's space, it doesn't bother me, I've seen it done. Just that there are much better alternatives than the bucket, that's all.

Usually the races around here, at least the last few I've been to, we've all just had to stash our bags in the grass / trees just outside the transition area. The racks were pretty full. No big deal, I don't need anything from the bag during the race anyway.

Anyway, didn't mean this bucket thing to be such a big deal.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I commute daily on my Centurion, which was the first "tri" bike I bought in the mid '80s. It's the yellow Accordo model that was a bit cheaper than the Dave Scott signature model. There's no excuse for mean-spirited unsolicited advice from fellow participants. Sorry you have had to deal with that. Slappy wrote that running is his favorite. I agree and that's one of the reasons that I continue to do triathlons. Swimming and cycling and competing in tris provide me additional athletic outlets other than running. If I wouldn't have started doing tris in the '80s I probably wouldn't be enjoying running now as much as I do. I likely would have become burned out, chronically injured or bored with running. So that makes it worth dealing with some of the unwelcoming folks doing tris. :)

P.S. There were attempts when the first aero bars and disc wheels became popular to segregate participants using those tech advantages from the rest of the field in triathlons. I did a very popular tri in Ohio in the late '80s (Caesar Creek) where there was a separate division at least one year for those with the fancy new technology. Obviously, that didn't stick. It may be worth trying it again, but I doubt it will work. Just look at the ads surrounding this forum. :)

Triathlon is a dying sport in North America. The predominant race series throughout the world is Ironman, and many perceive that you aren't even an athlete, if you're not doing IM 140.6 events. The average entry fee for an IM 140.6 is $800. $800 for one damn race! That doesn't even cover any additional expenses associated with the race or sport. If you are a young person, you're thinking I can buy an iphone X for around the same price. That same race is not insured at that fee and what if there is a weather issue resulting in modification of the race you're so heavily invested in? Don't even get me started on bike costs and newbies rolling up to sprint tri's on $5,000-$10,000 super bikes to bucket list one and done. Just ridiculous!

As well, most folks have a hard enough time getting off the couch or finding 30 minutes at a local Planet Fitness for $10/month. Are those same younger folks really going to be keen on spending 10-20 hours a week training their asses off? Where is the appeal?

Finally, there is a marketing issue. Triathlon is boring to watch, especially on TV. It will never be an ESPN sport. Part of the draw in athletics is that folks aspire to be athletes. If triathletes are perceived as being good at exercising, but not real athletes in North America then how does it have a cool factor of say a LeBron James or Tom Brady? Face it, if it is not media (TV, internet, etc.) friendly then you can't market it to the masses.

Finally, there is a marketing issue. Triathlon is boring to watch, especially on TV. It will never be an ESPN sport. Part of the draw in athletics is that folks aspire to be athletes. If triathletes are perceived as being good at exercising, but not real athletes in North America then how does it have a cool factor of say a LeBron James or Tom Brady? Face it, if it is not media (TV, internet, etc.) friendly then you can't market it to the masses.

--------

Funny thing, that the format that works for TV and fans to attend the easiest, is hated by large majority of AG athletes- DL sprint triathlons.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The media / TV friendly thing is a bit of a red herring, IMO. lots of sports are or have been popular but aren't TV friendly. The thing is that the sport has to be accessible for new entrants, and fun for people to stick around.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Triathlon is one of the absolutely very few sports where the AG triathlon events are pretty much the complete different type of event than the professional event that can be marketed for TV. DL events really are about the only event that the sport can market to ESPN/Fox etc. IM events would have to be so edited to ever make tv. DL sprint legal tri could and is done in less than 90 mins.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Exactly! In 5 years there won't be any Ironman or 70.3 events; Kona will be gone and WTC completely out of business. Triathlon will have gone the way of outdoor rollerblade races from the early 90s...you'll be lucky to find 10 whole triathlons in the entire country. Dead I tell you!

There seem to be more IM 140.6 and 70.3 races being eliminated than added. The sport has been retracting and not expanding for several years now. I don’t think IM will be gone tomorrow, but it very likely will be a lot smaller in the next 10-20 years.

Perhaps it will result in a re-genesis if the sport once it bottoms out. I don’t think the rebirth will occur when bikes are still running $5,000-$10,000 and race entries are $800. I foresee a bottoming out and then a new grassroots movement, but the sport will have to undergo dramatic changes from where it is now to re-establish itself as fun, cool, trendy and reasonably affordable to the masses.

It’s a lot like Harley Davidson. Those bikes were originally for gritty bad ass bikers. Now the only ones who can afford them are doctors, attorneys, business owners, etc. At some point in part to escalating costs the company lost its identity. I think triathlon is getting close to being in a similar position. Hey they do sell a $20,000 Ventum which is about the price of a Harley. Lol!

If there were 1/3 fewer IMs today then that would still be a boat load more than there were about 10 years ago. And 70.3s only started around 2006 so you could cut those in half and it would still be a massive increase. If your perspective is only from North America, and only from around 2012 to present then yeah, it might look like the sport is dying. But I did my first triathlon in 1980 and to me the sport is massively larger.

The bike issue is a red herring. There are several threads on ST telling you that we are past peak aero. The independent wind tunnel test results published last summer showed you that the most expensive super bikes give you hardly anything more than a standard Felt. People are paying $1000s more for virtually no benefit...that's the lesson if you read those threads.

What else do I see? How about massive growth in XTreme triathlons. I think Norseman started in 2002 and I can name about a dozen more that have sprung up as IM has become mundane for some. And look what Otillo has done to promote swim-run events around the globe.

Why does triathlon have to be cool and trendy? Running and swimming aren't cool and trendy...it's been the same basic thing for eons and yet people still do them. By adding the bike, triathlon will ALWAYS be more expensive. And with the time commitment, it will never be a sport for the masses - thankfully!! That doesn't mean it can't be improved, but the hyperbole around the death of triathlon is so overstated that it gets tiresome.

I think we've reached the peak that the entire tri industry + athletes is "IM or bust" and sorta going back to the basics of "just go compete", whether short/long, anything you want just do it. And yes the sport as a whole is still IM centric, but I think we are at a point where we've seen the "oh shit" moments, and turning more to just race/train. Want to do short course, go for it, want to do LC go for it. But even races around here in NC...it's turning into...want to do a tri? Great we got that....want to just swim/bike...we got that too, want to run/bike, we got that now all at the same event.

So will that turn numbers around? Eh I dont even know or think it even matters...well I mean it matters, but I think we are getting more efficient and that's likely more important than so dependent on 1 and doners, etc.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I know a number of collegiate triathletes and most don't really care about ironman and such. Many are of the opinion that they might do one someday just to say they did, but most are primarily short course and like it that way.

I'm tired, so if that didn't make sense, all I'm saying is that in my experience I agree, we're moving away from being so IM-centric.

My predictions on triathlon in North America going forward:

1. Decrease (continued) in participant numbers in triathlon
2. Decrease in the number of IM 140.6 events ($800! C'mon!) I think this will be a significant decrease. A lot of the boomers are breaking down physically and the millenials are not filling the void whatsoever.
3. Increase in the number of IM 70.3 events. Big increase!
4. Increase in the price of IM 70.3 events (see #3 unfortunately) $400-$500 for an IM 70.3 is right around the corner and people will pay it. That's half of $800 right?
5. Companies will continue to try to unseat Ironman such as Toughman, Challenge and Rev3. They will not succeed
6. SwimRun will have difficulties. Reasons: Triathletes already have expensive tribikes. Do you let it collect dust? Also, the partner idea makes it logistically difficult for most. Finally, the costs are pretty significant and close to IM 70.3 prices. Ouch!
7. At some point people are going to realize the super bikes are for sponsored pros, because they're so damn expensive and the cost/benefit isn't there. The bike industry will focus more on mass producing quality time trial bikes at an entry level price. Maybe even some new companies emerge with very competitive starter pricing. Reality has to kick in eventually. I think this will happen sooner than later.

Just my thoughts based on observations. I could be totally wrong.

he bike industry will focus more on mass producing quality time trial bikes at an entry level price. Maybe even some new companies emerge with very competitive starter pricing.

Remember the days when companies offered aluminum bikes at reasonable prices? No reason they couldn't have a semi-decent tri-bike now starting at the $1500 mark or below. Use standard components, regular (round) seatpost, spec with Sora and microshift shifters.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Those are mostly fair predictions although I don't see the cost of 70.3s hitting $500 anywhere in the near future. For what it's worth, my cost to enter IM South Africa last year including the processing fee in U.S. dollars was only $417 thanks to the exchange rate.

I definitely agree on the swim-run thing. The partner requirement will keep that sport from getting too much bigger. But isn't great that it NOW exists and people have the option?

FYI - the millennials aren't really filling any sports void as far as I can tell.

What about young women in half marathon and shorter running events? Don't women outnumber men now in all U.S. race distances below the marathon?

But is that a win if more women enter but even more men leave resulting in a net decline to running? From the article below (and youtube version) you can see that running shared roughly the same boom years and experienced the same bust as triathlon. And pricing pressure is cited as a reason for the decline in running as well. Interesting to note that an increase in run, bike, and multi-sport events is expected to increase over the next 5 years...same as Dan is predicting.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/...arathon-running.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIT3i9YtEXU

I see your point. Sad that some of the increased no.of fit young women runners have to settle for pudgy video and fantasy sports obsessed boyfriends. ;)

Let me ask you guys - why would you want triathlon to increase?

I like the relative exclusivity of the Ironman events. I like the fact that these events are hard, and you need to put time and effort in if you want to succeed. In my mind, these events are meant to be very hard and challenging, not all-inclusive. You don't get the wow factor if everybody and their brother is doing it.

Think about marathons. Forty years ago it was a big deal if you finished one. Nowadays, I know lots of folks that have run them and it doesn't seem like a big thing anymore. I wouldn't want the IM to get to that point, where you get a 'meh' from casuals.

As someone who is entirely new to Triathlon (never done one yet) i'll offer some observations from the many different competitive environments i came from.
part 1:

i ran track and cross country in high school and track in college. this is very structured training, practice, racing for youth to get involved and be competitive. it works great too... when i was in high school (96'-99'), our track team was large and drew in all the best athletes from the school. HS cross country we even were able to poach some of the top tier football players (largely because the football team sucked, and football wasnt that big in michigan. soccer was more popular). There was not even a hint of anything triathlon even available at the school. literally no grass roots involvement, no school involvement, nothing.

part 2:

my first job in high school was working for a local bike shop. i immediately got involved in Mountain bike racing and followed shortly by road racing. won several junior state championships in every type of disipline offered. competed all through the midwest and even did junior nationals for road racing. 100% of that was done without any coaching, no team to work with, no clubs to help out with what to do. I loved doing it is why i did it, but i was essentially one of maybe 3 kids at my highschool racing bikes. Its much, much harder to get involved in the sport when there is zero outreach to youth. im confident thats why Triathlon is largely a mid/late age group involvement.

part 3:

i raced some mountain bikes in college as well. we did have a club sport (but it was a division 3 school so not a big club), and we did attend NCAA events through the midwest. there was good involvement at those events and excellent competition. But the local bike shops and cycling club largely didnt help or get involved with the college team (i know the bigger schools did have that involvement though). more outreach from clubs and shops would most certainly have brought more people to the sport. I continued to race mountain bikes, at a lesser level after graduating college and brought a bunch of friends from grad school and work to start doing it with me. moral of this part of the story is that having done it as a youth, i continued to do it as a young adult, and brought other people in. even with basically no one guiding me on what or how to do it. As the mountain bike racing evolved over the years, they ran into a problem of dividing the racing groups up to much. and then they made to many different types of events. so now most of the events get half the people attending that i saw in the late 90s at the races i did as a junior. its silly to have a beginner class, sport class, expert, and then pro, all with age groups subdivided, and again subdivided with single speed and Clydesdale. and now days its XC racing, enduro racing, downhill, endurance races, cyclocross all drawing from the same crowd of people. your basically racing yourself at that point. and further break it up by having a half dozen different organizations offering events in the same region... its racing overload!! in the 90's it was one race organization in michigan, with maybe 5-8 races a year, and that was it, well attended, super fun. We had one national level NORBA race at the end of the year called iceman cometh that was huge. easy to schedule, you knew everyone was going to all of them. now you have to pick a series you want to do, and hope some competition shows up.

part 4:

i have a business now building hopped up street cars and race cars. "expensive" hobbies is a relative term... one grassroots race weekend our mitsubishi evo race cars can burn 1500$ in tires, $100 in gas, 200$ in brake pads, and easily need 500-1000$ in post race repairs/service. that doesnt include building the 40-50k+ car and any of the travel expenses associated with it. or the truck and trailer needed to move it. multiply everything by 2-3+ if you want to do it with a porsche or other exotic car. I actually sold all my race car parts and put my car up for sale to start doing Tris because its significantly LESS expensive. However, there is a lot of people who race cars, but at the pointy end of the field there are few people doing it outside of unlimited budget gentlemen racers and pro teams. If you want to be the outright fastest, it costs money, period. the sport has largely flocked to budget racing (think lemons racing and chump car, where the car has to be less then 500$ per the rules). but even still the cost of actually doing an event and building the car is still thousands and thousands of dollars. its likely half, or even a 1/4 cost of a NASA race with 10x more seat time. people love the budget racing because it enables people without the huge budgets to get out and race competitively.. sadly even that form of racing is getting polluted with big dollar builds on "cheap" cars to be competitive. Further, arrive a drive is becoming very popular. think renting yourself a top level tri bike for a week or two leading up to a race. significantly cheaper then buying the same bike and using it twice a year.

part 5:

Trying to get involved in Triathlons just recently turn out to be far harder then i thought it would be. with facebook, google and basically every resource at my fingertips, it was amazingly hard to find people to train with locally, clubs to work with, and even my local bike shop hasnt been all that helpful in getting in touch with the right people. finding events to participate in (outside of ironman events), is almost on a "Who-you-know" basis to find the oddball webpage where the race and registration information is. my observation is that the resources to do this sport are far to segmented. if you want people to get involved at all levels, it needs to be everyone working together. bike shops, running stores, and swimming stores all need to participate with youth, clubs and events... it is afterall their clientele... i have to do the same thing with my car shop, and it works exceptionally well at driving business my way. Web resources and facebook groups should be more consolidated, although honestly the only way thats going to happen is if someone builds a good webpage that offers event calendars that source from all different types of events/venues and locations. This page has the traffic and most of the pieces in place, but looking at my region for races its basically empty (Dallas). Clubs should reach out to high schools and colleges to draw in younger athletes to the sports, and the shops/manufacturers need to help the clubs do this too.

cliffs notes:

tri basically has zero youth outreach.
to many events drives down participation levels at each
cost is relative - to be the fastest is never cheap. if you are out to have fun, dont worry about spending the most, but dont cry if you dont win.
increasing involvement takes the entire community. clubs/teams, shops, manufacturers, and racers all working to bring people in and make it successful.

hope that is some feedback on someone new to this sport. doing Half IM galveston in april!

I personally don't care if it does, but not because it makes triathlon less exclusive. I applaud and encourage anyone who wants to do a triathlon of any distance, but I don't have a vested interest in the continued growth of the sport. Obviously, bigger is not always better. I do have a vested interest in enough people maintaining interest so that triathlons continue to be organized near where I live.

Generally, it is interesting to discuss having been a triathlete for 35 years, and I have friends who are in the tri biz.

That has been tried before. They didn't sell enough to justify continuing to do so. The bottom level specialized transition and the Felt s22 are examples of this.

Why wouldn't you want triathlon to increase? You realize there's more to the sport than ironman, right? Increased numbers means increased competition, more races, cheaper races, cheaper gear. More people racing means more acceptance of the sport from society as a whole; it'd be nice of people didn't think I'm weird because I race tris. Also, the pro scene would have more opportunities to grow, which I would love. More money in the sport for pros means that more pros are able to make a living at it meaning professional racing gets faster.

Bike makers have tried, but the market hasn't responded. Fuji carried a ~US$1200 11 speed alloy Tri/TT bike up until the last year, and couldn't get any market traction. The remainders had to be whored out on bikesdirect.com for $799. Hell, they still have some size 54's in stock almost a year later. And +/- US$1200 has been the "street price" of the carbon Kestral Talon tri bike for a number of years. I bet is sells in fewer #s than the $7500+ Cervelo P5.

The "bike problem" with triathlon, if we have one, has nothing to do with availability and everything to do with perception.

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

To expand on Gary's point--you can find quite a few full carbon Tri bikes for less than $2500 new from Specialized, Orbea, Trek, etc . That's less than any even semi-serious mountain bike, which are typically treated as consumables by their owners.

Some basic napkin-math would indicate that buying a Shiv Sport is actually cheaper than the cost for me to enter, attend and finish the next closest IM-branded 140.6.

I stand corrected.

I haven't seen one of these bikes in an LBS in years, so I thought they didn't exist anymore.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Yea, I was pricing out used bikes last year and my wife texted me that our LBS had a pair of Shiv Sports. I think I saved that screenshot where she told me to go buy one.

Sure, it's got some budget components here and there--but it's a very effective tool for a beginner through intermediate and it's easy enough to upgrade those parts when needed.

I realize that 2100 is more than 1200---but looking at the range of MTB prices at any LBS, that's right in the meat of what they sell.

These are benefits for which I would support an increase in triathlon although I think it is understandable that some people don't want to participate in highly popular sports. For example, I think the exclusivity of Ironman was a draw for many people. Now that completing an Ironman is common, there has been an explosion of Xtreme races which draw far fewer. There is nothing wrong with people seeking a different path, and thus wishing for fewer, not more participants.


I think pros would agree with your opinion, but I find this a very weak reason to support increased participation, especially since the pro scene is an interesting side show that many triathletes don't give a rat's ass about. It's been stated on ST over and over that few people car about them, and they certainly don't sign up for races because pro athlete so and so might be there. Age groupers, not pros are responsible for the financial success of the sport. Athletes that want to make a living at a given sport might want to investigate the pay scales and odds of success before making their selection.

Yep

What area of the country do you live in?

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Part 5: hits the mark, triathletes are generally narcissistic. Clubs and groups form and quickly engage in exclusive behaviour. When new people reach out or try to join, tri groups either ignore or make it hard and don't encourage new entrants.

Classic example is the pool. People swimming doin their thing. In saunters tri coach with his squad 20 minutes before they are due to start. Athletes start posing and preening, doing stretches talking smack.

Coach or helper coach puts out lane reserved sign and informs swimmers that they have this lane booked, you say well in 20 minutes, they say yes but you have to get out. Say okay, keep swimming. They come back in ten minutes and tell you again you have to get out.

Squad then jumps in and starts swimming anyway 10 minutes before they have the lane. Confused looking public members say who are they as we all move over to another lane. A few of said they are triathletes, everyone goes ah okay.

Now could coach have used that scenario to encourage, even invite some people to join in and maybe become saying customers one day. They then spend most of the first 15 minutes of their squad standing on the pool deck looking at the white board doing weird things on dry land that looked like swimming.

Got to your local 5 k run races, they do the same thing stand around in groups with club logos talking about themselves, wearing compression socks.

They run and are lucky if anyone goes under 22 minutes.

On the upside they generally don't infest bike races at all.

I personally am interested in pro races and am trying to get my pro card, so I'd be very happy if that side of the sport grew. I also think it's good for the sport to have things like super league and major league tri that can be televised and get people interested. I got into tri after being inspired by a local pro who won the first race I ever did, so there's also that side of things.

I think it's very short sighted to not care about your sport decreasing, or even wanting it to do so. Triathlon is a lot more than just ironman, as I said before. You can be an elitist asshole and want your races to remain 'exclusive', and that's ok I guess, but it's still good for the sport for a whole for the local sprint/Olympic scene to grow.

im in dallas/ft worth. coppell/valley ranch to be specific

It is hard to support someone's argument when they resort to name calling. Were the pioneers of our sport, many of whom were attracted to it precisely because it was practiced by so few people, elitist assholes? As I noted in my previous post, I agreed with the benefits of growth that you outlined, but I also can understand why some people would prefer a smaller sport and that doesn't mean they are elitist.

Meanwhile, I wish you all the best in getting your pro card while saying at the same time that neither I nor the sport owes you a living. And there were no pros when I did my first triathlon in 1980. It was simply a different challenge that I wanted to try despite my very limited swim ability. That same challenge is still there today for anyone who has never done a triathlon.

I'm sorry, the name calling was uncalled for. The way i see it it's one thing to try a new sport, it's another to say you like the sport being small and exclusive; especially with the way tri is going right now that means it's available mostly to those with the time and financial means to participate rather than physical ability. I don't want triathlon to become the new country club golf scene.

I support growth in professional racing because I like to see people going fast and that inspired me as a kid. I'm currently getting my masters for mechanical engineering, I fully understand that I'm almost certainly never going to be in a position to be a full time triathlete and I'm ok with that.

Read the article on the front page about Chris Stirling who won Celtman and Canadaman last year. His first race was an XTRI in 2012 on a steel bike costing 60 pound sterling (~$100).

The area in triathlon I would like to see growth in is olympic distance racing. There are plenty of sprints, HIMs and IMs. And there are a lot of "international distance" races where one or more legs are not exactly the same as an olympic, most typically shorter. There just don't seem to be a lot of solid olympic distance races to choose from.

The masters in mech is were your future lies. Triathlon and the pro card should just be for fun.

I'd also love to see a growth of Olympic distance races. People get too caught up in long course racing and forget about the short course stuff that usually got them started. My coach in MT said he thinks this is the main reason the sport is deteriorating in many areas. I feel like the sport would be a lot more sustainable if Olympic distance was the mainstay.

"Trying to get involved in Triathlons just recently turn out to be far harder then i thought it would be. with facebook, google and basically every resource at my fingertips, it was amazingly hard to find people to train with locally, clubs to work with, and even my local bike shop hasnt been all that helpful in getting in touch with the right people. finding events to participate in (outside of ironman events), is almost on a "Who-you-know" basis to find the oddball webpage where the race and registration information is. my observation is that the resources to do this sport are far to segmented. if you want people to get involved at all levels, it needs to be everyone working together. bike shops, running stores, and swimming stores all need to participate with youth, clubs and events... it is afterall their clientele..."

This works really well in our area (Long Island) where athletes, coaches and stores all support each other. Athletes and coaches support the stores that in turn, put on the races and refer athletes to the coaches, while also running group training sessions, even though the retailers may cost a little more. A quick count of upcoming races is over 20 an hour or less from my home. Sprints up to 70.3's.

Nobody should be leaving 5 gallon buckets or large bags (even if they are "transition" bags) at the bike racks. Use whatever you want to bring your stuff, but out of respect for other people, you should not be leaving this stuff at the racks. Put it along the fencing at the perimeter out of everyone's way.

I agree the people were douchy, what they should have said is something along the lines of those buckets could be obstacles, could easily be knocked over etc. and that is probably not the safest thing to have in transition and out of respect to other athletes consider other options in the future.

Think of it like this, if every single athlete had a 5 gallon bucket in the transition area, how do you think that would work out?

This is my very first post ever, ever, to slowtwitch. Everyone's thoughts here resonate with mine exactly. I've had these sort of sad thoughts lately as for me Triathlon has somewhat lost its mojo- or maybe I've lost my mojo for triathlon temporarily. That's why I'm here, that's how I found this thread. I hope you have a few good laughs with my post.

I moved to Southern California in 2006 (the peak years) and have been competing in triathlon ever since. In the past 12 years here is what I've witnessed here in So-Cal

A few iconic, or cool, or unique races, completely folded. (LA Triathlon, Encinitas Triathlon, Playa del Rey Aquathlon, lake arrowhead triathlon, many more)

Most triathlons had at most a sprint/Olympic race going on at the same time at most. Maybe 5 years ago some races started offering Duathon,5k, fitnesswalk, kids race, aquathon, 1 mileswim, 1/2mile swim, heck lets have a potato sack race too, options all at the same time. I'm not sure that was the right approach and I don't see as much of that the last year as I used to so it probably wasn't.

Race sponsorship HAS dropped a lot, the back of my race T shirts from 2006-2009 look like the side of a Nascar Winston cup car, Insert Major company name here! Since 2010 to now the shirts are getting quite empty. 2018 = Tri Sponsored by , "frank's bike service, your aunt's bagel shop" end of the list. We also know after the 2008/9 depression as municipalities were hurting for money they were eager to charge race directors more. Bill the years half over and the budget is busted!, hey Frank what about this 4th of July 5k for how much can we bilk them to use the park?

2006 Many more usa triathlon stickers and swim bike run stickers on cars at your local gym, 2018 -Spartan Race helmet stickers, "Spartan-up" loud in your face cross-fit stickers on cars. ""Killer Cross-Fit Gym #982 that just open last month Sticker - where real men are made - roar""

There is some truth to what the veterans here are saying, yes when you met a triathlete 20 years ago the thinking was wow what kind of special breed of an amazing human being are you! As lightheir stated yes, when in 2018 Joe nonathlete cubicle next door signs up for "Ironman U" does 1 ironman triathlon and more or less quits the sport immediately when their done it takes away that "captures the imagination" essence of the sport. It's the same when I see an overweight lady on the bike running path year after year in her Ironman gear head to toe shuffling along at a walking pace, it just takes away that "captures the imagination" factor. People forget running a marathon had a wow factor 20 years ago because they shut down clock at 4hrs and 0minutes and disassembled the finish chute - when you ran a marathon it was assumed you ran it.

I listen to Bob Babbitt's show often, and the Endurance nation podcast often. It's been discussed on his show often lately, how do we grow triathlon now that the endurance marketplace has changed so dramatically. On the endurance nation podcast which I adore and learn so much from, I do see how the current state of training is very different from 12 years ago. I'm not saying you'll win a race or always win your age group but it seems now its been proven you can focus on being a bike beast and unless your an inherently bad runner your run will just take care of itself, you will move up the field. People use to train very differently for triathlons, kind of added to the mystique (how will this persons questionable strategy pay off? We won't know till race day) Now in 2018 Jim Vance explains to us, the higher the athletes watts per kilo, the more success they have, every, single time. Once we find the answer, the mystique goes away, Will the 6'2" power biker beat the 5'9" hill climbing beast, well, now we know the answer before the race starts.

I don't have any reason to believe triathlon will rebound, I believe it will level as some have said. Maybe the ironman brand may scale back just a bit? They have so many races now. USAT has a new CEO who in an interview last summer said he is very aware how they didn't do much to capture the imagination of people and make sure people were getting a great experience at triathlons. They were just like "well you know......., we provide insurance........, and we focus on our next Olympic team" so the new CEO is aware of some things that are lacking.

As for me, I'll take a break from 70.3, just doing three of them in three years I lost much swim/run speed. As we age we gravitate to longer slower events but I think its the exact opposite if what we should be doing. I'll probably hit up the races in so cal that I have never done before. Big bear lake seems like an epic place to race. I have a hard time dropping $160-180 to do the Orange County triathlon for the 5th time even though its under new direction. I remember in 2009 I did the USAT sprint nation championship right here in Laguna Beach and yes the race was loaded with fast people and I made some new friends but wow, Boy Scouts marking the course with iddy bitty chalk sticks, hand drawn arrow signs on paper, same rickety bike racks, and whoever started the race had khaki shorts and a golf shirt on - I thought some random beachgoer grabbed the bull horn and started the race? There was nothing "national championship" about it, I though oh my goodness this race was just not worth $140 or whatever was at the time - never did the Pacfic Coast Triathlon again even though for 7 years I now work 5 miles from the start line.

It's been depressing watching some non-IM branded 70.3 events start here in so-cal with so much fan fair only to fizzle and fade so fast - depressing to witness.

I'll work on finding my Mojo, like in the 2nd Austin Powers film, I hope triathlon can find a thing or two to keep it exciting. I'm not sure what they NEED to do, I think the veterans of sport have most of the answers.