Felonia Milhous Von Pantsuit. She's the Wendell Wilkie of modern day politics. ;-)

Eh, it's obvious she and her husband Bill were raking in the dough as quickly as they could and then passing it around to what they expected would be members of her administration once she seized the White House. It was a big jobs program and payola organization for the Clinton cartel.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I never understood why they handled the foundation the way they did. If it was legitimate, they did everything they could to make it look corrupt. And if it was corrupt it was so in people's faces they had no choice but to notice. They could have at least been subtle about it.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

When you have spent your life above the law ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

About time is right. But you and I both know nothing will come of this. It slip off her just the email server investigation.

It may not be straightforward to prove there was quid pro quo, but yes, if they skate there will be howls from the right.

Impeach Hillary!

Yeah, but from the bottom of the article it says there is statute of limitations issues that might come into play.

I would have to dig up some stuff, but I recall something along the lines of her hiring her campaign staff to also work for the foundation. I'm sorry, but most people can't do two full time jobs, to me that is a big red flag.

Can we arrest her for getting Trump elected?

I’d throw in a couple of bucks to help fund that effort. ;-)

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Another shiny object to distract from the Russian investigation. Let throw some red meat to the ditto heads and investigate the Clintons again. How about investigating the Trump foundation! If the Lavender room had the money the Republicans have wasted investigating Hillary we could all retire. What a joke.

Nothing will come of it, her pant suits are made of teflon coated kevlar

And if they are prosecuted there will be howls from the left. No good will come of this except the continued hatred of the other side.

How is that "Russian" thing working out?

Pretty good. Four down 8 to go.

LOL...
can you pump your gas?

As a matter of fact I can. I'm a ridge running red neck out of the mountains of South Carolina. I can build a car out of a junk yard and run it on corn liquor.

So you don't think that there was anything wrong with the way the Clinton Foundation was being run while Hillary was SecState? And, how is the Trump Foundation similar to Clinton Foundation? Were there apparent government quid pro quo involved?

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Roger that. get back to me when President Trump is impeached for some reason or another!

I haven't seen any proof of quid pro quo. It is a nice target for Republicans and you would think the Clintons would have seen that. Hey if the facts show a crime prosecute them.
It's just a shame the Republicans don't put the same effort into investigating a known con man conspiring with the Russians to subvert our democracy. The Trump family is neck deep in Russian laundered money. There is a lot more circumstantial evidence of that than violations by the Clinton Foundation.

Google Trump family and Russian money and do a little reading.

I don't think Trump will be impeached. The Republicans in congress are all in and they will never vote to impeach no matter the crime. I think he needs to worry about New York that's where the criminal charges for his family will originate.

There is also the fact that the Clintons are probably smarter than the Trump's, although the whole email server stuff was pretty dumb.

Speaking of the Russia investigation, CNN has a special on it tonight at 10pm. I know CNN is clearly biased against Trump, but it could still be an interesting program.

Clintons are dirtier than an outhouse toilet seat.

Well if we use the standard being applied to Trump, meh, the economy ran good when Bill was in office.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Nothing will happen with the Clintons. They are dumb enough to always have accusations around them but smart enough to never get caught.

Oh give me a break. How long has the Russian investigation gone on and what have they found? All I have seen is a shady Uranium 1 deal and a Fusion GPS dossier most likely funded by HC's presidential campaign.

I'm not asking you to like Trump, I don't, but why continuing clinging to "Russian meddling" without any genuine proof?

I would love it if you would share verified information that shows Trump is involved with Russian laundered money. If the information can be verified I'm sure the FBI would like to see the information as well.

You seem to believe that the govt. should be investigating Trump and not Clinton. Wouldn't you want any politician who is suspected of doing something illegal investigated?

There will be howls from some on the left but for many it will be about time. I would have no problem with someone, similar to Mueller to investigate them. Get someone from the left to investigate and it will hold more weight. If the right goes after them, it will be the same old shit that always happens.

"They did it, they're bad. Don't look at what we're doing over here."

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TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

I have no problem with them investigating. What I have a problem with is the Republicans not applying the same standards investigating Trump as they do the Clintons. They won't subpoena or put witnesses under
Oath. They stonewall bringing people before the committee. In the house it's a farce. If the democrats take over the house you will see a different story.

it's undisputed fact the Russians meddled in our election. why would you not want an investigation into it to ensure it doesn't happen again and that there was no collusion by any US actors?

Eta, if all you know about the Fusion GPS dosier is that "it was most likely funded by HC's campaign" then you have much to learn.

And while the dosier was called "salicious and unverified" by Comey it has not been discredited by any stretch of the imagination. People need to learn what salicious and unverified mean. The dosier was compiled by an ex British spy who has spent much of his career working on Russia. It was also initially funded by Republicans, although who funded it may or may not be relevant. As mentioned above, the Congressional investigations, led by Republicans, appear to have no interest in following the possible money trail from the Russians to the Trumps and/or Kuchners. But Mueller will have no such qualms. Before you go around stating "no evidence", you may want to lift your blinders and read about some of what is known and understand that there is likely a huge amount of information we don't yet know.

Maybe start by watching the CNN special report tonight at 10pm.

It has been suggested that the Trump/Russia thing is some kind of attack on our democratic process, but what I haven't heard/seen is what exactly they are accused of colluding to do.

Was there voter fraud?
Was there voter intimidation?
Was there voter suppression?
Were there fake absentee ballots?
Were votes for one candidate changed to a different candidate?
Were voting machines hacked?

The only thing I have heard is that some FB ads may have come from Russia.

I mean really, even if there was collusion, but all they did was come up with some fake news that somehow changed the minds of some Hillary voters; I'd be embarrassed to have supported the investigation.

I have no problem with an investigation. So far the investigation has turned up $100k worth of facebook advertisements paid by Putin and shady Uranium 1 deal. With the release of the Comey memo and Peter Strzok text it looks much, much more likely that the FBI colluded against Trump than Trump colluded with Russia.

What are the misapplied standards? How about latest Comey memo that makes is look like the FBI colluding against Trump?

What we (As laymen) know:

... the Russians hacked into the DNC's server and leaked emails to Wikileaks.

Are you ok with that, and if so, is it because it was The Democrats' emails and it likely hurt Clinton's campaign?

I would never have voted for Clinton in a million years, but, as an America, I DO have a problem with what the Russians did, and I think it should be investigated.

Trump loves playing tough with our enemies, and even some of our allies. Do you not find it rather surprising then that he was so cozy with the Russians? Why do you think that was?

Was it not odd that Manafort was brought in as campaign manager, right around the time the Russians were offering dirt on Clinton?

What was Carter Page doing in Moscow in early 2016? What was his role in the Trump campaign?

What dirt have the Russians got on Trump? What if some of the salicious details in the dosier are accurate and the Russians have evidence of it?

What financial ties do Trump and Kuchner have to the Russian government?

We have already seen indictments and guilty pleas by members of Trump's team, and the investigation is FAR from over.

You are clearly choosing to only see what you want to see.

Off topic: speaking of voter fraud, what happened to Trump's claim that he would have won the popular vote were it not for millions of fraudulent votes? Oh yes, it was hogwash and the electoral commission investigating the claim was just wound up having found no evidence of any irregularities. Talk about a waste of time and taxpayers' money.

Well the investigation has turned up A LOT more than that, (and that's just what we - as the public - know), but keep your head in the sand.

If there was any misconduct within the FBI then it, too, should be investigated thoroughly. By the way, there is no rule saying FBI staff can't have political views, and as soon as Mueller learned of the Strzok texts, he removed him from the investigation. This is the same Mueller who is a registered Republican, and was appointed by the deputy AG, a Trump appointee (Rosenstein), who also recently testified to Congress that he was happy Mueller was doing a good job and had his full confidence. Thankfully some are willing to put the country and their own reputation before party politics.

it's undisputed fact the Russians meddled in our election. why would you not want an investigation into it to ensure it doesn't happen again and that there was no collusion by any US actors?

Eta, if all you know about the Fusion GPS dosier is that "it was most likely funded by HC's campaign" then you have much to learn.

And while the dosier was called "salicious and unverified" by Comey it has not been discredited by any stretch of the imagination. People need to learn what salicious and unverified mean. The dosier was compiled by an ex British spy who has spent much of his career working on Russia. It was also initially funded by Republicans, although who funded it may or may not be relevant. As mentioned above, the Congressional investigations, led by Republicans, appear to have no interest in following the possible money trail from the Russians to the Trumps and/or Kuchners. But Mueller will have no such qualms. Before you go around stating "no evidence", you may want to lift your blinders and read about some of what is known and understand that there is likely a huge amount of information we don't yet know.

Maybe start by watching the CNN special report tonight at 10pm.[/quote]
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You're right, words mean things, and at this point the dossier is still being described as "largely unverified", which is qa significant win for the Trump camp, until we hear otherwise. Parts of the dossier have been proven false, and the "dossier" as it became did not exist in the brief period that a Trump investigation was funded by the Washington Free Beacon.
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“We retained Fusion GPS to provide research on multiple candidates in the Republican presidential primary, just as we retained other firms to assist in our research into Hillary Clinton,” the Free Beacon said in a statement published on its website.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-russia-dossier-washington-free-beacon-funded-fusion-gps-a8024186.html
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I agree that some dirty money may eventually get Trump, but from what has been reported to date, probably nothing that had anything to do with the election. Also, the latest (if you've noted stories over the last few days) is the left is minimizing the role the dossier has played:
https://nypost.com/2018/01/04/democrats-dishonest-scramble-to-disown-the-trump-dossier/

Trump won't be impeached until after the 2018 elections and then only if they find really good glue. The only thing that might get Trump doinked is his actual mental well being, I really don't think his elevator is hitting the top floor, (ie. dementia issues).

   Look into what the Trump associates have actually pleaded to. Not much there, and nothing that makes Trump look bad or says collusion. We don't really know much about what Mueller has discovered, so we should probably hold judgement. Mueller still has my confidence, despite some embarrassing things. On that font, it appears Strzok was in director McCabe's office spewing heavily anti-Trump stuff, so McCabe likely knew just how virile Strzok and his GF were towards Trump, and their favoritism to Hillary, yet he did not pull Strzok from the Hillary investigation, and (apparently) did not mention this to Mueller. The interesting directions of this whole saga just never end.

I'd like to see the personal emails of the FBI agents in New York that pressured Comey to announce the additional emails before the election. It would also be great to see the personal text and emails of Trey Gowdy's "committee " investigating Hillary. I bet those would be awesome. This whole thing has become tribal. Your team against my team to the point neither side can see the truth.

Glad to see all the mental health experts that can now magically diagnose a persons mental state with out a proper medical exam.
We can’t even keep guns away from crazies, how the hell you going to impeach a president because “ you think his elavator doesn’t hit the top floor”.

You're right. I'm sure if just wait long enough they'll find something damning that hasn't been discovered in the last year. Maybe they'll even find something crazy like Melania being paid $500,000 to give a speech after Trump approved the sale of uranium to Russia. Wouldn't that be crazy?!

Dude, my mother has dementia, trust me - the fucking brain in that man ain't quite right.

The whole point of an investigation is to see if the facts show a crime. It seems you are against even investigating the Clinton Foundation to see if any crimes were committed. And while I don’t know if there is currently any concrete evidence of quid pro quod, there is enough circumstantial evidence of just that to justify an investigation, IMO.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Im not against legitimate investigations, if they find something, they should be apropriately punished.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

6 months ago people were saying the investigation should stop because "no evidence of collusion had been found." Hate to break it to you, but these things take time, and it will go on for most of this year at least.

I had no problem with the Clintons being investigated last time...or the time before that...or the time before that...

I do have a problem with the president ordering the DOJ to investigate them to distract from his own legal issues.

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“Read the transcript.”

Exactly why it's damning to Trump. They all have cooperation deals. So who are they going to cooperate against, and for what?

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“Read the transcript.”

I may be incorrect...but the Russians didn’t “hack” the DNC. The passcodes were given by stupid spam emails that the DNC responded to. Big difference.

There were two different email tranches that were obtained, one from the DNC and the other from the Clinton campaign. It's still under debate as to how the DNC's emails were obtained (and they're still being none too forthcoming about that), but the Clinton campaign's emails were obtained through John Podesta, who fell victim to a spear phishing attack -- after being warned by the campaign's IT guy that he needed to change his password. Like a lot of older people not wise to such things, he got phished, simple as that.

As far as the Russians go, OF COURSE they interfered in the election. Just like we tried to interfere in the Israeli elections a couple years ago and just like we tried to influence the outcome of the Brexit referendum as well. We're just a little bit more open about it than the Russians -- revanchist Communists that they are. All countries try to interfere in the elections of other countries with whom they have relationships in order to ensure their interests are best served. Duh. Nations don't have friends, they have interests.

I'm no fan of Donny Two-Scoops, that guy in the White House, that's for sure (neither was I a fan of Felonia Milhous Von Pantsuit), but we've yet to see actual evidence of collusion between that guy's campaign and the Russians. Lots of innuendo and supposition by everyone, but zilch in terms of direct, or even circumstantial, evidence.

To me, the whole special counsel thing has been one long masturbatory exercise, but without the payoff. ;-)

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

The emails were stolen by agents of the Russian government and offered to the Trump campaign. Then the stolen emails were edited and released publicly. The semantics are irrelevant. Any American should be outraged that a campaign would conspire with an enemy of the United States to subvert a US election. If the Democrats had done this the whole administration would be out by now.

HRC paid a British spy with a long Russian history millions of dollars to travel to Russia and produce a salacious dossier from Russian sources. By doing this, she conspired with Russia with the sole intention of subverting a US election. How do you not see this?

Add on top the fact that HRC calling this “legal fees” is illegal and you have laws that were actually broken.

Where’s the special prosecutor?

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My training

If HRC did anything illegal wrt the dossier she should be held to account.

But the FBI has confirmed many parts of the dossier, and you should also understand that the words salacious and unverified do not mean false.

The Russians have a file on Trump going back to 1991 when Russian money started to help him out of his then bankruptcy. Do you really think with Trump holding the 2013 Miss Universe pageant in Moscow there are no salacious details in that file? Do you have any idea how things work in Russia and how Putin has held power for so long?

Meh. In this case “hacked” is a term that matters, at least to me. Also, if you think this is the ONLY time a foreign entity put an effort in to getting a political position in power in another country but their own, AND ESPECIALLY here in the US: you’re daft. They have a vested interest, and i always assume they “assist” just like any political contributor (personal or corporate) that would prefer “their side” to win. And it doesn’t bother me or shock me. They’re looking out for their interest...and if the “dirt” they dig up is the truth, i’m Glad to have seen it.

While I"m sure that you so desperately, passionately and deeply want everything in the dossier to be true...you need to come back to earth. You say the FBI has confirmed many parts of the dossier...um, no. They confirmed that Carter Page went to Russia? SHOCKING! CONSPIRACY!!! If there's anything even close to what you're saying, i.e. confirmed parts of the dossier, and they matter please enlighten me.

I don't know how anyone can find the inuendo surrounding Trump and the dossier as "evidence" and then totally disregard the actual breaking of laws wrt HRC. She bleached her harddrives after they were subponead. She hired a British spy to go to Russia and fabricate a dossier. She lied about the dossier and called it legal fees with the FEC. Her "foundation" was a thinly veiled pay to play scheme (the original focus of this thread). None of these have been objectively investigated due to extreme bias within the DOJ.

It is hypocrisy at its best. They're both crooks. For HRC, there's plenty, TONS of evidence but the FBI changed "Grossly negligent" to "extremely careless" so that she could get elected. FBI chases the "Dossier" the genesis of which has been shown to be at a minimum tangentially related to its own employees (and their spouses).

And yes you're right about something...the Russians have a file on Trump. They do on everyone! Or do you not know how things work in intelligence? They have files on Bill, Hillary, heck they probably knew about Weiner's sexting before CNN. I'm sure they have dirt on Huma and Kushner too.

Quit watching Maddow and apply the same logic and objective perspective to everyone and you'll see they're all crooks and idiots. The Clintons though...about 10x as bad.

Follow the evidence and you'll see Trump's an idiot and folks in his orbit are probably going down for money laundering. Follow the evidence and you'll see Hillary's a power hungry, treasonous (hiring foreign spies??) wretched human being who is the definition of hubris and corruption.

I highly doubt anyone will objectively pursue her for the reasons stated above. So we're all going to have to depend on our own thought boxes to see the obvious.

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My training

You seem to be the one getting passionate. For the record I've never watched Maddow and am no fan of the Clintons. Who started this thread?

The elements of the dossier that have been confirmed, at a minimum, are that the Russians meddled in the election process, and that the Trump camp knew more than they initially admitted to. There may be other elements that are true too, and there may be elements that are not. We don't know.

By the way, is it illegal to pay a foreign national to try to get dirt on your political opponents?

Here is a pretty balanced analysis of the Steele dossier by an ex CIA officer, someone who has far more credibility than you or me.

http://www.slate.com/...en_corroborated.html

A link to Slate? LOL!

Next up someone posts a "pretty balanced analysis" published by Breitbart or Infowars.

Did you even read the article?

No, I guess not. Ex CIA agent not credible enough for you. You stick to Fox I guess, right?

Hardly anyone gets "hacked." Look up phishing. People set up fake websites that look identical to other sites. Typically you'll get an email to log into your account and the email includes a link to the their fake site. The moment you log in on the fake a third party has your log in credentials for the genuine site.


I think everyone is in agreement that we do not want other countries meddling in our election. I understand that your bias makes this hard to understand but we have yet to see any evidence that Trump and the Republicans did collude with Russia. We know Russia paid $100k to run facebook ads and illegally obtained DNC emails. Wikileaks offered those emails to the Trump campaign on September 14th AFTER the emails were already in the public sphere. CNN released a correction confirming the September 14th date.

Do you honestly believe $100k in facebook ads and a few DNC emails had any measurable impact on the election?

This article in interesting and one of the best I’ve read on the subject. My takeaway is this investigation is very important if for no other reason than to understand what occurred or likely occurred and implement actions to prevent or minimize future Russian efforts to undermine our election processes.

Hardly means they swing the election to Trump and that Trump himself will be directly implicated. There is already enough to implicate some of his associates.

The Clinton investigation(s) are an entirely separate matter.

Are you intentionally vague with your comments? What exactly has been verified?

"When pushed for examples of what was verified in the anti-Trump dossier, (FBI Deputy Director) McCabe was only able to identify the fact that Trump campaign advisor Carter Page traveled to Moscow — McCabe could not even verify anything about the meetings that Page supposedly had."

https://www.dailywire.com/news/24938/report-mccabe-contradicts-himself-testimony-unable-ryan-saavedra


You sound like CNN. You're so hellbent that Trump is in bed with the Russians that you don't even need facts to come to that conclusion. At the same time you turn a blind eye to the evidence that exists with Clintons.

I don't need to read anything by Slate just as I don't need to read anything by Breitbart. Those are extremely biased media that cherry pick facts and sources that support their slant. They are not news media. They cannot even be classified as infotainment anymore. They are propaganda. The fact that you consider Slate a source of news says everything.

Find a story that does a side by side comparison between Clinton and Trump campaign links to Russia then get back to me. None of the leftist news you rely on will do that because it clearly shows what a farce the whole thing is.

This. (And glad you actually read the article, as others seem frightened to do.)

How any Americans think there should not be a thorough investigation into what Russia managed to do during the election is beyond me. Lindsay Graham gave a good interview this morning saying as much. I'm not inherently anti Trump. I just think, a) he's been proven to be incompetent, and b) some on his team may have acted improperly vis a vis Russia. Per the latter, we need to understand who and what was involved. Like Rod Rosenstein and Lindsay Graham, I have confidence in the job Mueller is doing to that end.

Follow the evidence and you'll see Trump's an idiot and folks in his orbit are probably going down for money laundering. Follow the evidence and you'll see Hillary's a power hungry, treasonous (hiring foreign spies??) wretched human being who is the definition of hubris and corruption.


How is it that these two people ended up facing off, for election to the most important political position in the U.S., and one of the most influential and important in the world?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

//How is it that these two people ended up facing off, for election to the most important political position in the U.S., and one of the most influential and important in the world? //

At the end of the day, this is THE issue. This must be resolved, no doubt about it.

At the end of the day, this is THE issue. This must be resolved, no doubt about it.


Indeed, I don't want to preach as an outsider, but I think that Americans, in general need to get more engaged in what's going on politically at all levels in their country. I know this will be hard, because I the other thing I sense is general distrust and dislike for politicians and the political process or a disengagement going in the opposite direction of what is really needed - but it is the democratic system we have of one-person-one-vote. So you get what you get!

More need to get engaged. and more people need to vote.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

But it’s not one person one vote, really. The electoral college moderates that. I live in CA and this state will always be Blue. Therefore, my vote against Dems really does not count.

To exacerbate the issue was the Supreme Court ruling allowing virtually unlimited financial contributions which means it’s about money which takes us down a rathole.

It’s a big and diverse country and politics in Washington are corrupt. By money.

I hear all that, and these are common complaints, from both side of the political spectrum in the U.S. - so, something has to change.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I’ve always thought term limits for Congress would greatly help. However, I was discussing this with an Economics professor who has advised Presidents and his view was that members of Congress are basically there to create wealth and money grab as evidenced by their wealth-growth whilst in Office. Because of this, his biew was we are more protected if they have many years to money-grab instead them them trying to do so in shorter periods of time. He believed the latter would cause exponential corruption.

He had no answer to the main issues and he’s a hell of a lot smarter than I so I just accept our system. Like most Americans who have more to worry about day to day.

So lets have campaign contributions be publicly funded. Each congressperson gets a 100k to set up a website. The presidential candidates get twice that. It's on them how they make that shoestring budget work. Not a single additional private dollar goes into the effort.

That should kill the quid pro quo that, of course, is behind all, big direct and indirect, campaign contributions.

Also....the bar is way too high for proving quid pro quo in politics. There shouldn't need to be "proof". The mere appearance should be punishable. Look what happened to the Clinton Foundation after HC lost her bid for the big seat. It instantly dried right up. What does that tell you? I mean as a general point, not about HC.

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Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

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And here's a guy that claims to know stuff and says don't believe it:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/gradsoflife/2017/12/12/the-road-to-diversity-and-inclusion-defining-the-problem/#b87f3da6e005
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The article you linked ends with the guy saying that there is lots that we can't be sure of, but should be able to be verified by those still in govt. I'd hope that Mueller has just the team to do so, but for now all we can do is waste time arguing dogmatically about things we don't know.

ps. did you see today's:
http://www.latimes.com/...-20180106-story.html

Hard to imagine there will be collusion, not to say certain folks (Manafort) didn’t act improperly. I’m interested in the Russian game and preventing it in the future.

Obstruction, to me, starts a grasping at straws narrative.

For the ST record, I’m also very interested in the Clinton pay to play, etc. They’re criminals.

Want to make a bet nothing really happens to Trump or the Clinton’s regardless the exposed corruption/crimes/vile behavior?

I disagree with that. Votes always count, and a vote for the losing issue/candidate is not a "wasted vote."

You have to take the longview. Dramatic shifts in electoral voting (or any representative-type vote) can happen quickly and dramatically. We don't have to look for back for evidence of that. Same with popular votes (look even less far back). And the groundwork for those shifts isn't magic. It's the result of persistence and consistency. A vote always contributes to relevance.

Right now you have to convince people to fund your campaign. In other words, you have to have enough credibility that people (or organizations) are willing to reach into their wallets and give you some dough. Those who can gather the most financial support have a huge advantage and generally win out. With total public funding, the road will be open to all sorts of crackpots and nutters who would not have otherwise had a chance.

There has already been a progressive decline in the quality of presidential candidates. Public financing would take us down another few levels.

Just to be clear: you got those two quotes wrong. I am the first, not the second...

Lots of ways to fix that. Say, for example....
Some kind of austere website gets set up by the feds on your behalf. You need to get 1% of your constituency to sign your website in a (nonbinding) commitment that they will vote for you. Its up to you to gain enough notice with your zero budget that you're able to attract enough attention to get the 1% that allows you to make the cut. Then you get the real federal support, such as it is.

Besides, most folks think us libertarians are crackpots. Look how we've been doing lately with mainstream candidates. Trump is a reality TV president, Dem powerful made sure the Bernie didn't have a chance, HC has long been evil, and we've decades of big spenders both red and blue.

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Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

;-)

"Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage." -- H. L. Mencken

Lots of monkeys running things lately.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I've said it before, no form of campaign finance reform will work. When $4.5T is on the line, people will find a way.

The only way to 'fix' it, is to dramatically reduce the federal budget, to a point where it isn't worth it for people to get elected, and for people/corporations to help get people elected.

But right now, about 650 people get to dole out $4.5T a year, that's a lot of power.

I assume by ignoring my questions about actual, illegal, improper votes, that you agree that in the end, whatever supposed Trump/Russian collusion, Russian hacking/interference/meddling, had NO material impact on the election. (as backed up by your statement about the election commission finding no election irregularities)

Leaked DNC emails only hurt Hillary because it exposed the truth about how she perverted the democratic process.

Investigate them all. If they are crooked (they all are), let's find out.

By the way, when are you going to realize the Russia investigation is going to get you nothing? I can't believe there are still people who believe in it. Scary stuff.

I don't think you can say definitively that Russian interference had no material impact on the election, as their actions in terms of hacking and releasing emails and their efforts on social media netrowks may have affected voters' choices. We should understand their efforts and prevent future attempts to influence voters and or systems.

Did Russia manage to hack into the electoral systems and change votes? No, not to my knowledge. Could they in the future? They could try, so it's important to investigate any efforts to date and mitigate the risks.

Are you saying that because Russia was not successful in causing improper votes, that their other activities pertaining to the election should not be investigated?

By the way, the election commission was set up in response to pressure from Republicans after Trump's false assertion that he won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of illegal votes that were cast. He added that there was "Serious voter fraud in Virginia, New Hampshire and California - so why isn't the media reporting on this? Serious bias - big problem!" Of course that was more pants-on-fire rhetoric to ease his hurt ego at losing the popular vote. And of course he was not alleging Russian interference.

Finally, your point about the hacked DNC emails hurting Hilary, supports my point. Thank you. As I said before, I am no Clinton supporter. She is despicable and I was relieved when she lost (I just never throught Trump would be quite this bad). Her and the DNC's lack of ethics is a separate issue to the Russians hacking the DNC and releasing those embarassing emails.

You failed to answer my question: Are you only ok with the Russians doing this only because the hacking hurt Hilary? As an American, don't you want that to be investigated to help ensure no US political party's server is hacked again in the future?

See, I can look at it all dispationately as an American. There were plenty of things that happened under the Obama Administration I thought were terrible, and said so. But you seem to have partisan blinders on at every turn.

Replying to you just because it was last in line.

I think the best that can be said about the Clinton Foundation is that they at least wanted it to look like pay for play. I would think they weren't so dumb as to directly take money from it (but I would never presume to predict how dumb someone can be) and I have not heard too much noise about employing insiders at exorbitant pay (but admittedly haven't studied it in depth).

But even if everything is squeaky clean as far as that goes. I think they clearly wanted potential donors to believe that they were getting something from Hillary the politician in exchange for donating. Given who gave and how much, it really appears that the donors thought they would get political favors and not just the joy of giving.

The Clinton Foundation being dirty or appearing dirty has no relation to whether Trump and family need to go down. I really wish people would be able to separate the two.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

So you are opposed to anything that might influence voters? So, no more political ads? No more political commentary on TV/newspapers/magazines? No campaigning by candidates?


No, I am only concerned that it took (possible) Russian hacking to discover the truth about how the DNC and Hillary usurped the democratic process. There should be systems and checks that wouldn't allow them to do what they did, and therefore no hacking would have been necessary. Would you have been happier if it had been a DNC insider that blew the whistle on what was going on? Or are you only concerned that it was the Russians that uncovered the corruption?

You are the one with the blinders on. Focusing on an investigation initiated by biased FBI agent and a bought and paid for (to foreign agents) dossier, that has only turned up unreported contacts with Russians. As opposed to actions that directly eliminated any chance Bernie had of getting the nomination, and also allowed Hillary to completely co-opt the party (financial agreement).

You're being intentionally obtuse and/or juvenile. So you're ok with a foreign adversary trying to influence the outcome of our elections?


I agreed that what Hilary and DNC did was unethical (and possibly illegal, I'm not sure). What you seem to incapable of doing is separating the two issues (the DNC's unethical behaviour and the Russian hacking), but at least you answered the question finally: You are unconcerned that a foreign adversary hacked into the servers of one of America's two main political parties. Good to know.

In answer to your question, yes, I would have been happier for a whistle blower to tell the public what was going on between the DNC and Hilary, than for the Russians to have gained the information through hacking into their servers. Wouldn't you?

As for the investigation, Lindsay Graham said this yesterday:

"SEN. GRAHAM: But [Trump] believes that collusion is a hoax. All I can say is that it's not a hoax. The Russians stole the emails. They did interfere in our elections. We now know that Trump Junior met with the Russians in Trump Tower and that Bob Mueller is doing a great job. He's the right guy at the right time. He needs to be allowed to do his job."

I agree with Senator Graham. Let's see what the investigation finds. Would you prefer the investigation were wound up at this time? (Try to answer this without bringing up Hilary again.)

If by "influence" you mean taking out fb ads, or billboards, or yard signs; no, I am not any more concerned about the Russians than I am the UAW, SEIU, or NEA running ads.


Like what? You already agreed that no improper votes were placed. So, what was the interference? That some fake news made a new weak minded Clinton voters vote for Trump?

If you are concerned about that, you should be shitting your pants about the clear and obvious bias in the MSM, and that they were full on campaigning for Clinton. Talk about interfering with the election.

You still seem incapable from distinguishing between US politicians and media outlets (which of course have political bias), and the Russian government - our adversary. Clearly you have no interest in this distinction, nor the potential results of the Mueller investigation which you've made up your mind is not going to unearth any lessons for the future nor any improprietous behaviour by members of the Trump campaign team, even though indictments and guilty pleas have already come. Do you not think those indictments and pleas are part of Mueller's team building a case to net the bigger fish? No need to answer...

You seem to be unable to understand that you haven't articulated any real wrong actions. No, there isn't much difference between a fb ad bought by 'The Evil Empire' and an ad bought by the Teamsters.

Are you just upset because you think Russia is an adversary? Would it be ok if England or France took out some ads, or their leaders proclaimed some preference in political candidates?

What are the potential results of the Mueller investigation? OMG, these people didn't report that they had contact with Russians! OMG! Putin preferred Trump over Clinton! OMG! There was even talk about taking out fb ads! Democracy is dead!

What do you think/hope the investigation finds? Be specific, and try not to use the words, meddle, interfere, or influence.

Again, you agreed that no illegal/improper votes were placed. So, is your whole point really that a foreign government tried to influence public opinion like any other entity, foreign or domestic, via fb ads etc? Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

You've been watching a lot of Fox & Friends.

Personally I don't "hope" the investigation finds anything. I "think" it will find there are strong ties between the Trump and Kuchner businesses and Russian oligarch's money. I think it will find the Russians have a degree of influence over Trump, either through his debt to them (which could be perfectly legal), or them being complicit in illegal activities, possibly money laundering. Do I think Trump colluded with the Russians in the election? I doubt he did personally, and even if members of his team did (which it seems they did in some degree regarding the hacked emails), it is not clear if what was done was, in fact, illegal.

What is clear is that there has been strong ties between Trump and Russia for years, despite his complete denial of any associations on the campaign trail. Members of his team have also lied about contacts with Russia. We're talking about our president potentially being compromised with the Russians and you don't care. That's your prerogative. Meanwhile I agree with Senator Graham that the Mueller investigation should be allowed to run its course.

This conversation is now futile, and you've shown in the other thread you're a nutjob, so I'm out.

LOL!!! Bows out after admitting he doubts Trump colluded with the Russians which btw is what the Muller investigation is supposed to be about. Want to investigate Trump for those claims you are making then fine, but Muller should stick to the scope of his investigation. If there is other things he finds he should turn the evidence over to the FBI. Nice job on the insult too.

Separating what I suggest Trump may be guilty of vis-a-vis financial crimes or other *dirt* the Russians may have over him, and what he might be guilty of vis-a-vis collusion, are potentially entirely related. If you can't see that, then you too have been blinded by the right wing media machine.

Pot meet Kettle... blinded by the left wing media machine.

Nice try. I've quoted and agreed with Lindsay Graham in this thread. And I started this thread saying it was about time the Feds opened an investigation into the Clinton Foundation. I would sooner have voted for Trump than Clinton, and I did vote for a Republican in my local elections last November.

Hold it, an American business with ties to Russia? If having ties with Russia is evil, how about politicians and those who work for politicians? I can come up with a long list of politicians, from both sides, with ties to Russia. As for businesses with ties to Russia, again, that list is rather long. I suggest you do some research that doesn't include far left organizations.

If the "Russians" (a generic term, so, whoever they may be) have such influence why has Trump done nothing since taking office that has truly benefited the, again, "Russians"? Plus, if they have so much dirt on him (I see you buy into Steele's fantasy), why have they not used that dirt to influence him?

I think you spend way to much time watching the crazies on MSNBC and CNN, which seems to have left you with NO ability to think for yourself. But, this conversation is futile. You've shown in virtually every thread you post in that you are a "nutjob". Yep, using your term. The one you like to use when you have no answer when a person disagrees with your absolutely inane, radical, crazy, over the top, assertions posts. Which, considering that you state you actually have a job, happen a lot over the course of a single day.

And for the record, I don't have cable and don 't have access to any cable news and don't watch Fox News. So I ask you, how much MSNBC and CNN do you watch?

For Kay:

Sorry, I corrected my original post.

i think a rhetorical dilemma for both 'sides' in this whole hot mess is that finding one party guilty does not exonerate the other (and vice versa). i can imagine a lot of trump supporters might think that if the clinton foundation is found to have broken the law, that therefore means that trump and his campaign didn't. likewise people hanging on trump getting perp-walked out of the whitehouse by muller means hilary and the DNC are also off the hook.

who knows how it will shake down, but my gut feeling is that there's a lot of misdeeds here and plenty of blame to go around.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Things didn't end so well for the last guy who allegedly did do that. RIP Seth Rich.

You should update your site, http://zpub.com/un/un-bc-body.html

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Kay for the love of God please be specific! You continually throw out vague statements like "strong ties to Russia" and "Russia influenced the election" as though those things are actually illegal. The investigation will run its course and if something illegal took place hopefully it will be uncovered. In the absence of actual facts everything else is speculation.

The only thing that has been proven so far is that Russia bought facebook ads and Trump Jr. took a meeting with a Russian lawyer who claimed to have dirt on Hillary. As Jr. did not have a position in Dads administration the meeting was not illegal, but certainly a bad decision. Jr. testified that her statements were "vague, ambiguous and made no sense." The most likely conclusion is the meeting was a set up and in typical Trump fashion Jr. fell for it.

Not sure if you actually believe what you are saying or just following the company line.

There have been multiple guilty pleas with people who appear to be cooperating.

Try reading this - https://www.washingtonpost.com/...m_term=.f73a1a32a533

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Summary:

blah blah blah IF blah blah blah blah IF blah blah blah IF blah blah blah IF
blah blah blah IF blah blah blah IF blah blah blah IF blah blah blah

Collude tuff to prove back to carny in chief. Mentored by his father and folks like Roy Cohn in rough and tumble ny, trump dealt with unions, mafia, etc and knew how not to get caught. He had his bag men like stone etc. I think signals were sent between putin and trump and were oral closed room (like he did with comey). Putin also wanted to get hillary too. So no need for constant communication between camps. There may have been some helping on voter targeting. Then the clowns got loose, Flynn, papa, Donnie jr and screwed up. So carny had to do damage control on the "adoption" meeting and likely messed up big time by clearly telling folks to lie about the meeting. And on and on.

This country deserves better.

There has been plenty of fake news around Flynn. All we know so far is that Flynn plead guilty to making false statements to the FBI. Where it gets very interesting is that he was interviewed by the now infamous FBI agent Peter Strzok and without his attorney present.

Some specifics? Sure...

Trump began receiving money from Russians around 1991 after he went bankrupt and had little access to bank financing. Later there were his efforts to build a Trump tower in Moscow, that were still happening even in 2016, despite his denials on the campaign that he has any ties to Russia whatsoever (i.e. a clear lie). He held the 2013 Miss Universe pageant in Moscow. There were other cities/countries very keen to host, but he chose Moscow. Maybe there was a legitimate business reason. Maybe not. Maybe all his dealings with Russians have been completely above board, but maybe not...

In 2005 Trump bought a property in Florida for $40m. Three years later, despite the housing collapse, he sold it to Dmitry Rybolovlev for around $95m. Rybolovlev's private jet was spotted three times at airports where Trump happened to be campaigning in 2016. Coincidence? So says Rybolovlev. By the way, one of the most popular ways for Russian oligarchs to get funds out of Russia and 'cleaned' has been via property markets.

Felix Sater was a Russian who worked for Trump, of whom Trump later said he barely knew and wouldn't recognise in a room. Google him. Sater said in a series of emails to Trump’s lawyer Michael Cohen, that building a Trump Tower in Moscow would benefit the Trump's presidential candidacy. (Read that again.)

Why do you think Trump is so keen for the investigation NOT to look into his financial and business dealings? If he were so squeaky clean, why would he be so fearful?

Then you have all the stuff with Flynn, Don Jr, Carter Page, Manafort, Gates, Kuchner, Sessions, Papadopulous... I'm sure you can do a little research to learn more specifics on those issues, if you care to.

Why do you think Bannon said Trump Jr will be "cracked like an egg?"

Let's see if more indictments and guilty pleas will come. I suspect so.

You know what I'm amazed by? That the two sides in this debate can look at the exact same evidence and come up with completely opposing viewpoints and opinions about what that evidence means.

Someone in this thread already said what I'm going to say:

1. Hillary Clinton isn't going to go to jail or be charged with a crime. That ain't happening.

2. Donny Two-Scoops isn't going to be charged with a crime or be impeached or frogmarched from the Oval Office and kicked out into the street. That, too, ain't happening.


We've survived 44 presidents. We'll survive the 45th -- who's with us for at least 3, if not 7, more years. And we'll survive the 46th, and 47th and so on and so forth, worlds without end, Amen. ;-)

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

The reason is that one side here is chosing not to look at all the evidence, or acknowledge there is likely a ton of evidence we - as laymen - are ignorant of. They just keep their eyes closed and cry, "show me the evidence!" "Witchhunt!"

-
hmmm, Two guilty pleas, neither of which mean much, excepting that as described in the piece you posted, there is an expectation that they may lead to more Trump dirt. Manafort and Gates indicted (for acts not related to Trump) and are not guilty pleads, so not much so far, but the left is hoping these are foundational to a big Mueller hammer on Trump.

I fixed that for you.

All I'm saying is that we should wait for facts to be made public before jumping to conclusions. I don't have a personal stake in the outcome of Hillary or Trumps investigations. The media sensationalizes everything and their bias against Trump has lead to a lot of half truths and whole lies. Again, I'll wait for more facts before casting judgment. It's not like Trump used BleachBit to destroy the emails on his personal server ;)

Show me where I have jumped to any conclusions. I have been accused of suffering from TDS, but I have always maintained we need to wait to see what the investigation uncovers. The Trump ball washers seem to just want the investigation to go away, despite many in the GOP saying the investigation is warranted and should continue (including Rod Rosenstein).

As for the media, for the most part, even the left wing media like CNN, has only reported what is known. They simply don't make stuff up, despite how many times Trump says They do. I dont disagree they sensationalise it, but whats happening here is pretty sensational and agter all, they are trying to attract viewers.

But the likes of CNN also tend to have panelists from both the right and the left on their discussion panels. One tends not to see this on Fox, AmericaFirst, Lou Dobbs etc. Those outlets seem, to me, (and yes I do watch them), to simply be op eds or have a few likeminded people enjoying some groupthink.

The whole "Fake News" narrative has been lapped up by the right, including some here. Any mistakes made by the MSM - which of course do happen - have been quickly corrected, sometimes with reporters suspended. Meanwhile the White House misrepresents facts almost daily.

See, this post by you is right. That is all WE know. So to think anyone knows that there will be more or nothing is silly. Mueller knows more about what is going on but is rightly not saying anything or allowing leaks like has happened with other special prosecutors or investigations. Above you at least implied there was nothing TO know.

It would be great for everyone if he were done. But he isn't. When he is we will know more.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Well said. I feel that many people and the media are making conclusions without all the information and facts. In my opinion the rush to judgment is filled with bias and speculation.

So, what your saying is that Trump started colluding with the Russians in 1991 to win the Presidency in 2017?

Actually, it is likely that in a million years he wouldn't have thought he'd become president. Which is more reason he might have sailed close to the wind with the Russians, and who knows who else. He would never have imagined he'd be under this kind of scrutiny and it speaks to reports that said some in his camp were horrified when they realized he would win. Maybe this is why.

and all those retired generals that gave many years to military service? Are they colluding too? Won the cold war, yet crumbled to Russians for what? Money? To elect Trump?


Well, he did get caught when those hookers pee'd on him....so yeah, I guess they have that on him.


Serious question. Tomorrow, if Mueller comes out and says trump did not collude with the Russians, closed the investigation, would you be ok with that?

Would you be able to get on with your life and enjoy your upcoming tax break?

If that's what Mueller says tomorrow, absolutely I'd be ok with that. I have actually said on this forum more than once that I don't think trump himself colluded with Russia. I don't think he's smart enough nor his campaign organized enough, though I won't be super surprised if I'm wrong. I do think Trump and members of his team may be guilty of other things though.

Tax break? Good one. I live in NJ.

Hey, what if he finds evidence that a white house employee gave Trump a blowjob?

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“Read the transcript.”

I thought he paid them to take a leak on the bed Barack Obama slept on in that Russian hotel, not take a leak on him personally. Isn't he some sort of germaphobe? Or has he really gone down the Yellow River?

Sorry. That was juvenile on my part. Which is why I said it. ;-)

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

The question still remains, what do you contend that Trump (or his people) collude with the Russians to do?

You have already agreed and posted info that the Election Commission found no irregularities. Therefore the Russians did not hack/interfere/influence/meddle in the election.

It seems like there is no crime to investigate.

I have answered this before, but just for you maybe this will help:

"The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by then-FBI Director James B. Comey in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including:
(i)any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and
(iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).
(c) If the Special Counsel believes it is necessary and appropriate, the Special Counsel is
authorized to prosecute federal crimes arising from the investigation of these matters."...more

Thanks, for a minute I thought this was about an attack on democracy, a stolen election, or something.

This sounds like investigating middle school kids for passing notes in class.

You're welcome. I'm sure you'll catch up eventually.

I am in Ca and I get the same tax break as you.

So, you wont be ok with it because in your mind, trump and his crew are "guilty of something"!


Can you show me how to make a tinfoil hat?

LOL

Wtf would you know about my taxes? Give you a clue, I pay over $40k in property taxes. this tax bill is not helping me.

I don't care how much you pay in property taxes. All that shows is that your a rich privileged white ass who is to stupid to MOVE.


Some people don't even make 40 k a year. You crackers crack me up. Boo Hoo, I pay 40 k in property taxes. you rich people and your problems.....

Now go pay your taxes and let the adult talks

The irony.

shhhhh...

Too late. The secret's already out...






You're a stable genius!