I think its a great idea.

But, just so you don't get stuck in a rules thicket, don't restrict the types of bikes allowed. Just set up the gravel course, let participants know in advance how bad the surfaces are/will be, and then let them make the choice on the best equipment to survive the bike course conditions. And tell 'em to bring lots of spare tubes !

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I love fondues.

Glad you caught that. I grew up in north jersey, and when I was a younger, fitter lad, I used to ride on 9w in a T shirt that said 'grand fondue this way.' I refuse to let that joke, or attitude, die.

Personally I love AmZof and trail running is fine with me in a tri/du. I have no desire to buy another bike, so I would not sign up for a race with a "non-road" ride.

Not sure what you mean by stage race, but if it take more than about 3 hours - I'd pass.

Great example is there is a local to me yearly gravel grinder in Umstead park. I didn't have a bike for it this year and didn't want to rent, so didn't do it. But there are great off road running in there, and a little lake there. It'd be a crappy swim, probably short and not a nice lake/pond, but you could definitely do a duathlon on the gravel there.

I'd do it.

I'm not that attracted to spending $300 for branded events. Keeping it within a gravel/park area means no need for road closures. That would keep logistics and cost much easier.

I think the size of your market is relatively small.
As your post says, most people want branded, specific distances.
Equipment is a big issue. How many triathletes who have invested heavily in a tri or road bike, also own a gravel ready bike?
I would do your event, but I'm an outlier. I do triathlon, road/gravel/CX racing, kayak racing, ultra running, etc...

All that said, it's time we put the multi back into multisport.

Great idea. I did a gravel grinder in Delaware County (western Catskills) a couple of years ago that was really awesome. Tons of great roads with really hard climbs there. I think the event was about 60 miles. About 2:15 drive from north Jersey/NYC.

That's my feeling. I'm tired of triathlon begin about spandex and race plans. Maybe Xterra already exists for this purpose, but an event like this couldn't hurt.

I was thinking-
-one transition, start/finish in the same spot. I'm not dealing with a damn pack of burroughs to transport stuff between two places.
-800-1200m swim, preferably two loops with a beach turnaround between each lap. This is good for the spectator and allows us to use a small body of water. minnewaska would be pretty ideal.
-25-30k bike- Theres a solid loop here that we could do that has a road descent so people would remain alive, and a brutal 25min dirt/rocky climb up the back. If you've ridden aumick rd, you don't fucking forget it. You wouldn't need a gravel bike, or a mountain bike, but you'd want one, just for traction on the climb. the loop is probably 50/50. road/dirt, and could be adjusted for more if necessary. The bike might take 75ish minutes for the front guys, double that for BOP? great views on this.
7-8k challenging gravel/doubletrack/singletrack run, with a few significant climbs and beautiful views

The total event would be maybe 2:30 for the winner, with maybe a 4hr cutoff.

I had considered a morning swim race of like 1500m, a big breakfast, a TT start gravel ride at noon, a light lunch and like a concert, and a run right before a big BBQ with another concert and a big expo. Its everything I hate about full-day race festivals and such, but maybe it's what the people want.

I live in New Paltz, NY, Home of the SOS Triathlon and the AmZof Duathlon. With the explosion of partially (fondues, gravel enduros, Enduro World Series MTB events) and non-competitive (gravel rides you have to pay for, supported century rides, and the like) that seem to proliferate cycling, I wonder if there is a market for an event like this.


There is and there is not.

Bare with me for a minute.

Triathlon headed down a road, from the get go where few if any swim/bike/run for the heck of it. Triathletes ONLY option for some kind of an event to go to has been a RACE - where times are taken, results calculated, and awards handed out. Thus a triathlon can't be anything else.

Cycling by contrast has always had a large group of people who ride, but never actually pin on a bib number and really RACE. For them, century rides, sportifs, charity rides and even gran fondos* have been something that they have been happy to sign up for and come out and participate in. Triathlon to day really has not had the equivalent of this. The closest you get is some very informal organized training days, that I know some coaches put on, that has a day of swimming/cycling/running all organized and laid out.

Now I'm bound to rankle a few people here with what I'm about to say next, so I apologize ahead of time. When you look at the race field for a large 1/2 IM or full IM race, it's clear that somewhere in the race field (note I'm calling it a "race"), you can draw a line and, really people are not racing so much, they are going to finish and complete the distance. They have more in common with the sportif or century ride, rider than someone who ie really and truly racing that distance of triathlon. But if you called it the, say the Whistler Triathlon Sportif, and not IRONMAN Canada, you might have 20 people sign up!

*Gran Fondos fall into a bit of a grey area. Some are like a race, and some are completely non-competitive. Orginally, they were meant to be competitive and some still believe strongly that this is the case. - with times, places and awards, but the line has been blurred.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

This is the issue I have with this type of event- I'm not sure it caters to a group of people who really exist, rather it caters to a group of people who i believe (and maybe hope) exist. I am one of these guys- former tri guy, like to ride on dirt, like running on dirt, wish this race existed so I would have a reason to get back in the pool. I'm just not sure how many other people share my sentiment or have the financial means to equip themselves for this.

I never thought about the "triathlon sportif" angle.
So true. Triathlons are ALWAYS a competition.

Makes me want to go do Hydrosloths informal Ironman Canada Redux in Penticton this year.

It’s an interesting idea but a niche market within a niche market. I have been focusing on triathlons the last few years and am transitioning to gravel and mountain bike races... part of the reason is that I can’t justify the time and expense of swimming and I have never really enjoyed running. An added benefit is that I can sign up for a dozen races and spend less than I would on one Ironman race. With that being said and as someone who is probably your target market, I don’t think I would have any interest in a gravel tri. Just my two cents.

Well, grab you a fat bike (4" minimum tires) and head down to NC for the fat bike triathlon (held near Wilmington), this year. I was out of the country when it was held, this year. I'll be there, this year.

The whole thing never leaves the beach. Swim the surf....bike and run the beach.

I think they even had more than 20 people, this year. Not sure how many, though.

This is the issue I have with this type of event- I'm not sure it caters to a group of people who really exist, rather it caters to a group of people who i believe (and maybe hope) exist.


Indeed. If you are a triathlete, you are "in" the sport and signing up and doing "races". It's been that way since Day-1. There is really no other category. I can't think of one person that I know, that swim/bike/runs for the heck of it! They are putting that all together, doing the the training for all three, to get ready to go and enter a race!

I ride with a pretty fit group of masters level cyclists on Thursday nights and sometimes on weekends. Some of these guys really do race and are very good, and some of us do not (although we are fit and strong enough that we could race and acquit ourselves well in races if we did race). It's that latter group that does not exist in triathlon!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I agree. Everyone I know who's training sbr is doing so for a race(s) coming up. When they take a break from racing triathlons, they usually fall back to one, or maybe two of their favorite sbr activities to keep in shape and enjoyment purposes.

Don't you "race" in the Thursday night world championships? I know the serious group ride in my town feels like a race each week. That's certainly an advantage of cycling. Much harder to "race" that way when you have to combine SBR, thus nearly all triathletes are training for a race where they need to have a number and pay an entry fee.

Sounds like the Turducken of races.
"Honey, I have an event on Saturday.. I'll be home right after the expo, after the concert after the BBQ after the run after the other concert after the light lunch after we gravel ride after our big breakfast after we swim."

This

Don't you "race" in the Thursday night world championships?


Of course. It's the, "world championships"!

In late spring and summer, for me this is by far the hardest ride of the week. Just hanging in the group is often a challenge - but that IS my motivation - to stay in the group and NOT get dropped!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I think you have a good idea. There is a need out there for something different. I think your idea is too close to tri though. There are lots of people that have to retire from the traditional run/jump sports that are looking for something. That is the only reason I am into endurance sports now. I actually run/bike/swim for exercise. I also do running & cycling events as well. When I combine the 3 though, those are the most boring, dull events that I have done. At least with a sprint, there is the pedal to the metal/go for broke attitude. Adding distance just makes it slower and more boring. It is like the difference between a crit bike race and an ITT. The crit is mostly exciting and unpredictable. While the TT is all planned out and boring. The results at the end might not be, but the actual event is to me.

By far the most fun I have had in an endurance event was the Urbanathlon I used to do in Chicago before my brother moved from there. It was also dropped from Chicago. Now I don't want to spend the money to go to New York or the West coast. Show up, take off and hope you have what it take to get to the finish. The event I am looking for now does not exist. I'm looking for an event that combines everything. Triathlon, OCR, Crossfit, CX you name it. Combine it all and go at it. Every year during one of the LOTR TV marathons I tell my wife, "That is what I am looking for right there! Give me an event like that." It has most everything in it. Distance, all out sprinting, jumping, climbing, etc, etc, etc. Best part is that it is random so you can't plan your race out. I want stoppers on the course. By stoppers I mean obtacles/barriers/situations that stop you from advancing if you don't have the required athleticism to get past it. All you get before the race is maybe a total distance with the distances of each of the bike/swim/run/etc. But those distances may be split up and out of order. Anything to keep me guessing/adapting and overcoming so that when I cross the line I have earned it. If I come around a corner and there is a dragon to slay, so be it. Just give me a sword and a shield so I can get to it. If I can't get past it, then I was not worthy. Mostly what I am looking for is a spontaneous adventure that will test every part of my athletic ability. It doesn't really matter what kind of time I get or even if I don't finish. At least I will have fun which is more than I can say for the tris I have entered.

For all of you movie buffs, give me something with a little bit of LOTR, Running Man, Tron and The Warriors all in one. That is what I am looking for. I think there are a lot more out there like me.

I apologize for the rant.

I think you have a good idea. There is a need out there for something different. I think your idea is too close to tri though. There are lots of people that have to retire from the traditional run/jump sports that are looking for something. That is the only reason I am into endurance sports now. I actually run/bike/swim for exercise. I also do running & cycling events as well. When I combine the 3 though, those are the most boring, dull events that I have done. At least with a sprint, there is the pedal to the metal/go for broke attitude. Adding distance just makes it slower and more boring. It is like the difference between a crit bike race and an ITT. The crit is mostly exciting and unpredictable. While the TT is all planned out and boring. The results at the end might not be, but the actual event is to me.


Believe me there are those in the business, that want to go there - where you are talking about going above - short, interesting, challenging.

Almost 4 years ago now, Simon Whitfield convened a group of top people and leaders from triathlon, marketing and media in Canada for a full day conference to come up with a new model of triathlon. The version of the sport we came up with was as you had laid out - short, interesting, challenging but also very accessible!

HOWEVER, we also came to the conclusion, that in some or many respects the sport of triathlon was not ready for this, that a vast majority of active modern triathletes, were too obsessed with longer racing and IRONMAN in particular. It may take a few years for this to catch on.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I'd say I'm one of those people in a half or full and I am not offended at all.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

This. I wish Xterra would eliminate the restriction on drop-bar bikes.

you are not alone in the universe. gerard vroomen and i talk roughly weekly, planning our futures as producers of gravel events, mostly triathlons, tho both of us are not really stoked about the term gravel.

you should absolutely expect triathlons in your near future with the gravel bike as the vehicle. i promise you that whatever i'm involved in producing will:

1. have very few rules
2. the one ironclad rule is you have to do the whole bike ride on the same bike
3. please put me out of my misery if you ever see me produce an event that has a distance you recognize, or if any two events i produce are of the same distances. the one exception is the swim, where it's likely to be a mile, half-mile, 1km, or something like that.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'm glad someone is thinking about it. I might get flamed for this, but here is what I think the issue is: LC and IRONMAN, for the most part appeal to the hard type a personalities. They get their satisfaction from setting goals, results and achievements. I think the event is just a vehicle for getting those. Maybe not, though. Fun means different things to different people. To some people you can only have fun with success. Not to me, though. I can have a great time going out hard from the start in a 10k, trying to hang on, only to crash and burn a half a mile from the finish line! That's just as much fun for me. It's still smile inducing because I gave it all I could. I just didn't succeed that day. Maybe on the next one I make it all of the way before the wheels come off. Or I run it right and set a PR. I have options. It doesn't really matter, I'll still live to race another day. I can't say that about LC or IRONMAN. For me, it is always about being able to race another day.

This event definitely has appeal to me. I'm looking for unique, grassroots events that are NOT 140.6 or 70.3, where its a mixed bag for people participating - some wanting to see how quickly they can do it, but the majority of the folks are there to enjoy the journey of the day.

My preference is to have the event be longer because if I'm driving to a Destination "Race", it just feels more worthwhile if I'm going to be out there for >5 hours (preferably closer to 10 hrs).

I haven't done SOS, but its on my radar and has the uniqueness and epicness that is appealing. I did Sea to Summit last summer, and absolutely loved it despite horrible weather (swim canceled and no mountain top finish because of lightning). The SwimRun events that are popping up also hold appeal.

If you are trying to get more interest, you could entice newbies with a sprint distance (<90 minutes) to compliment medium (90-180 minutes) and long distance (>180 minutes) race options (I'm intentionally not including distances).

As others have said, I don't think these types of events will ever appeal to the masses, but that is one of the attractions for me. I'm tired of the races with the masses. And the mainstreaming of IM distance events is a big detractor for me, especially when race organizations "wussify" the courses by having downstream swims and flat rides to enable faster times.

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Tad

It took awhile, but I finally discovered that its not the destination that's important, but rather the journey.

Ironman has a logo that can be attached to an experience that brings social capital and brand recognition, along with a profit. All of those things have their place, but an event like this- which exists solely in my head- would be the anithesis of that. Instead of "I am an Ironman but almost didn't finish because I forgot my calf compression sleeves," on twitter, I want the finishers of this event to say "I raced this morning, and I almost didn't finish because I narrowly avoided a porcupine while I was checking out the view of the Catskills" while sitting at the bar.

I'm a college swim coach, and 28 years old. So often, I run into issues with my swimmers and with my peers (and myself) when they (I) seemingly have to jusitfy their (my) actions on social media or to themselves- If it's not the perfect use of their time, complete with a perfect picture, there's no reason to do it. If anything doesn't go according to plan, it seems to be a failure- my swimmers get so bent out of shape when they have to change their plans because of something out of their control. *

This event would exist only to exist- I am not thinking about putting this on to make money, but simply because I want to race this event, and hopefully race some other people. It's a chance to test oneself- the results will have no other comparable event- and try to adapt mid race to different challenges.

The unknown is the appeal to me. I want something different, after racing as a pro for 5 years, and college athletics before that. I have raced more than 50 Olympic distance races, and I remember parts of some, and none of others. This is more about creating a series of moments that I want to revisit mentally than it is about instagramming a podium pic. The test is still the same- 'how quickly can I cover this course-' but instead of planning for it, the event will be more about adapting and overcoming challenges the terrain, weather, and our minds can put before us.

I want to combine the spirit of Cool cycling events, e/g Rasputitsa, etc; adventure racing or orienteering (which is inherently unpredictable, cool) and rock climbing- (also unpredictable and cool). Maybe this can never exist, but it's been really fun to think about. and thanks @Slowman your article certainly made me think about this a bunch.

* I know this is a generalization, but it is my perception of the population with whom I work most closely.

I think a sportif would flourish if started 100% grassroots, but might have trouble gaining traction (ha ha) if they are kicked off as big events. Kind of recreate the conditions that started the sport in the first place.

"At 6am, I am going to swim from Excelsior beach around Frog Island and back. Then, I am going to ride the 48-mile Tour de Tonka route. After that, I plan on running the last part of the Lake Minnetonka Half-Marathon course to Navarre and back. If anyone cares to join me, you're more than welcome. Next month, we'll head up to Elm Creek to go off-road."

 
this sounds great!

my favorite races have been odd-distance multisport. exciting to race, making use of the natural features of the geographical area. Point to point trail runs, strange bike, swim across a lake, etc.

winter opens up the possibility of even more cool multi sport races, like the incredible pentathlon des neiges in quebec city (bike>run>ski>speedskate>snowshoe)!.

I like the idea and I think it would work well as a multi day event, sort of ultraman in remote location, possibly a team event like otillo. Long swim day 1 or even swim run day 1. Long gravel ride day 2 and trail run day 3. You could choose to participate to one day only, two days or the three. If your wife only runs or bike, that would give her a chance to particpate. Near a lakw with a camping site so you could make it holiday with the family.

I'm really excited about the idea of more gravel triathlons popping up in the near future.


When Wildflower announced its comeback for next year I noticed they had renamed the Mountain Bike Sprint to "off-road" sprint and after looking at the course description noted that it stated the bike had to have "knobby tires". I recall the old race specifically having a rule against riding a cross/gravel bike so I emailed Tri-Cal to see if something had changed. I got an email back from Terry Davis saying that indeed you can ride a cross/gravel bike and I have to say I'm more fired up for this race then anything else on my schedule for next year. It's unique and different and after doing tri's for 15 years I'm all for a new twist on swim, bike, run.

Hope to see more of these.

A close friend and I have been discussing something similar. Our idea would be a Strava type triathlon. Build your course, and challenge the crowd. Transitions don’t matter, as you might be the only one at the parking lot that particular day. Only segment times count. This way you could swim at lake A, bike route B, and run route C with more variety. Keep,the course open 30 days. Participants meet at the local watering spot, where the winner receives a free beer, or whatever. Challenging, local, grassroots, social.
Done.

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Only those who risk going too far can find out how far they can go...

i think this is a great idea, AmZof continues to be my favorite event, I tried to get into SOS for the 1st time. It took me 6 years to move up from "participant" to "competitive" in triathlon, but agree completely on the comment that events succeed because they appeal to all. In that veign, I'd suggest keeping this as simple as possible -
-swim - keep it a short course & simple, 2x 800s is good so people feel the break between laps.
-bike - not sure you want anything with a treacherous up or downhill, again you want more participation, not to hurt people.
-run is all good, as we are all on our feet.

for the participation idea, you can actually rope in a bunch of people that don't normally do "events." one could do this course, if selected right, on a gravel bike, road bike, MTB, Fatty, or even the hybrids that many people have..

keep at it, this can succeed, especially if your goal is a local grass roots event with a AmZof type of transition area and virtually no commercialization.

So we swim through melted cheese?

Or ride through knee deep melted cheese?

Cross streams of melted cheese on the run?

I gotta say, I'm not gettin' this idea.

Interested.
Nice to do non standard and non branded races. Low key as well.
I live in Westchester county, close enough to the Hudson valley

I am looking for something different to rekindle an interest in multisport. Gravel certainly appeals from a course stand point, I'm just not that wild about forcing a triathlon into those parameters. Biking, running, hiking, climbing, kayaking, in some combination would be cool. I'll leave the swimming for after the race.

so basically all talk....no action. Glad the friends that started Swim/run did not have a conference to explore multisport business opportunities....

At the risk of being crass - there was a want for this to be a viable business opportunity because many things in this sport right now are not sustainable. They APPEAR to be looking in from the outside but are not sustainable over a 5 - 10 year plan.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

That is awesome to hear Slowman.... You have got to come visit SOS next September and get a small dose of the carriage roads "better sounding than gravel" that we have here. I have space for you right in the heart of all of it. This type of racing speaks to the soul first and all the other noise later..

I put on a couple of gravel (I call them multi-surface, because there's a fair amount of pavement involved) rides each year. One in May (Elbe Multi-Strada Loop Ride -- https://www.facebook.com/...ts/1722342027810684/), and one in July (Lucky Masochist's Gravel Deuce -- https://www.facebook.com/events/150306302270855/). The May ride will be the 5th edition, and it's grown each year -- this past year we started with 17 riders. The July ride is a two-day thing, but people are welcome to do either day or both. So far I'm the only one who has done both days, and usually the Sunday ride is much smaller (I did it solo the first year). Both rides are free (including free food/beer after the first day ride), and they're characterized as a group ride on a prescribed course, not a race. No closed roads, no traffic control.

I've toyed with the idea of doing an off-pavement tri, but once you introduce a swim, you NEED to have insurance in place (in my opinion). I have good friends that put on a LOT of races (running, cycling, and tri -- BuDu Racing, for those in the PacNW area), and I know the amount of work it takes to even put on small multi-sport events.

I've also toyed with a "burrito" event (continuous repeat tri, sbrsbrsbr...), and have venues and courses laid out. BuDu has said they would help, but I also know I'm the one that would be doing the heavy lifting on that one, and quite frankly I don't have the time.

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I love races like that, but I might be a bit of an outlier. For example, one I have done a couple times is run, kayak, gravel bike (in that order). It is one of my favorites. I am a craptastic mountain biker, so I am going to see if one of my friends will do a relay Xterra race with me, because he wins local mtb races but doesn't swim or trail run.