Oh the irony.
I returned to ST seeking a refuge from the news these days. Everything in the news and on my social media is so contentious with meanness, stupidity, science denial, fake news, and righteous indignation.
So I return to ST and see a thread on crank length, a topic on which I have an interest and might have something to contribute. And what did I find in that thread? Meanness, stupidity, science denial, fake news, and righteous indignation.
I guess the only refuge is to be off line.
Sigh,
Jim

...but I do think it also drives people away.

...but I do think it also drives people away.

Hey, I resemble that remark!

Really, I do. I avoid threads started by, or taken over by, H2Ofun.

Oh the irony.
I returned to ST seeking a refuge from the news these days. Everything in the news and on my social media is so contentious with meanness, stupidity, science denial, fake news, and righteous indignation.
So I return to ST and see a thread on crank length, a topic on which I have an interest and might have something to contribute. And what did I find in that thread? Meanness, stupidity, science denial, fake news, and righteous indignation.
I guess the only refuge is to be off line.
Sigh,
Jim

Here's the deal,

In spite of 6-10 threads and a combined post count of at least a thousand, this isn't about crank arm length..AT ALL, it's about safety...and Dave's possible desire to buy a new bike.

IIRC it was back in the Diamond back thread before all this started I told dave that due to lower BB drop and shorter FC he will have to go away from 200's due to safety, basically he would bottom out or hit the front wheel with toe overlap and things that would happen would be worse than say "not tightening your seat post" or "putting your large front chain ring on backwards".

So this year or next he will buy a new bike, simply because based on some of the original pics...he has scary stem stack (fork spacers) and that will only get worse....by the time he settles on position that stack or perhaps according leverage on the steerer tube would be REALLY bad. IE dangerous, IE I wouldn't ride it.

So...back to the thread(s)....in most reasonable threads people who don't know come on here, get reasonable advise from say 10-20 people and some odd stuff from 1-2 (IE tire choice etc) most "reasonable" people look at the arguments, perhaps science behind that and make "reasonable and appropriate decisions based on said input.

To be fair Dave is wired very differently...IE I don't think he's a Troll, I honestly believe that he believes his version of reality to be true. He is not targeting one person (IE AC trolls) or selling shit. Basically he thinks he is right. But for some to think or validate that they are right they have this innate desire for everyone else to disagree with them.

So Dave is faced with a CR of 175 or under, because of what comes stock with new bikes. I predict this year or next Dave will be riding a very large (New) disc brake bike (Andean) with CR of 165-175 (simply because Dave is too cheap to buy after market) reasonable seat height and angle and fork spacers which don't scare the shit out of me.

Anyways, IMO the threads have been interesting and of good value...some of your links have made be go back and re-read the research (and then get stuck in the rabbit hole of google and other papers) some of Dave Luscan and Trents posts on the "holistic" nature of fit have, and should be looked at. I think most of ST is seeing or perhaps learning a bit from these.

Given Slowmans passion for correct fit and value for what you get from a fitter I find his absence interesting.

Anyways just my 2c

Maurice

My change has zero to do with safety!! I buy what I need, which is why I purchased 3 sets of 200 cranks at 450 each. I also bought in installed square bottom brackets in my 2 P2 cervelo's.

Who knows what crank length, which directly impacts fits, and my RPM focus will end up being. But I am having fun gather data to see. If the end results is what the "experts" say, great. But so far I am not seeing data that supports the experts opinions.



IMO, your post hits on what I see as the issue in our society now, which is so many believe their opinion is the ONLY right opinion, even with no facts and data to support. Then when someone has the guts to challenge them, they just go nuts and attack, which is why I call them snowflakes. So many just cannot debate. If bike fit and crank length only had one answer, then all these folks asking about it would have no reason to.

Oh well, life is fun

Given Slowmans passion for correct fit and value for what you get from a fitter I find his absence interesting.

i see no value in contributing to a thread where minds are already made up.

yep, but still wish you would offer your 2 cents. This is not about being "right" or "wrong". It is just debating, which as I have stated, seems to be a lost art.
Everyone just wants to get their way and personal. This is just hobby stuff.

Oh well, I bet in the future we will find that social media was one of the worst things that came out of the internet.

You still going to do a bike fit on me in Rocklin? :)

It would be my pleasure to fit you in rocklin this year. Between now and then, I encourage you to experiment. I also encourage you to do that with full acknowledgement of the primacy on this issue of Damon Rinard and bio McGeek. Read my front page thingy on orthodoxy and know that thee 2 guy
s are the keepers of orthodox fact here.

Sorry i have never believed in the orthodoxy attitude. Guess this is why my teams where called the campbell rebels. My experience is a good engineer is always asking why. Challenging the status quo. Drove folks nuts in life that were orthidox belivers. Great things came from folks who were willing to challenge the status quo and think outside the box. I respect folks who can debate give facts and leave the personal egos at the door. When frank is done with me you will then get the chance to see if his result you think is nuts and non orthodox. Then i will race and see what happens. What if my bike times get better?

Sorry i have never believed in the orthodoxy attitude. Guess this is why my teams where called the campbell rebels. My experience is a good engineer is always asking why. Challenging the status quo.

dave, both your statements above can't be true. you either:

1. didn't read my article on orthodoxy; or
2. no, you aren't a good engineer.

challenging the status quo and always asking why are fine attributes, but are entirely beside the point.

Given Slowmans passion for correct fit and value for what you get from a fitter I find his absence interesting.

Fleck wrote:

Yep, most folks have lost the art to be able to debate.


Indeed - debate, discussion and discourse is how we learn. It's how we collectively move forward.

These days, many people come into a debate or discussion with their feet REALLY dug in. Having a position on something is OK, BUT, it's important to listen to what the other side has to say - their may be something valid in what they have to say.

Yep, most folks have lost the art to be able to debate.


Indeed - debate, discussion and discourse is how we learn. It's how we collectively move forward.

These days, many people come into a debate or discussion with their feet REALLY dug in. Having a position on something is OK, BUT, it's important to listen to what the other side has to say - their may be something valid in what they have to say.

Bingo!! I guess us old folks were taught these skills.

Covey's 5th principal of highly effective people.

5 - Seek First to Understand, Then to be UnderstoodUse empathetic listening to genuinely understand a person, which compels them to reciprocate the listening and take an open mind to being influenced by you. This creates an atmosphere of caring, and positive problem solving.The Habit 5 is greatly embraced in the Greek philosophy represented by 3 words:1) Ethos - your personal credibility. It's the trust that you inspire, your Emotional Bank Account.2) Pathos is the empathic side -- it's the alignment with the emotional trust of another person communication.3) Logos is the logic -- the reasoning part of the presentation.The order is important: ethos, pathos, logos -- your character, and your relationships, and then the logic of your presentation.
Seeking to understand, is asking why. But so so making just jump into snowflake mode and attack. Open mind, again, this training somehow has been lost in our schools.
see it all the time on TV. We need a safe place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/...hly_Effective_People

Given our exchange in the other thread you obviously don't care about item 2 in that list very much.

OMG.

2) Pathos is the empathic side -- it's the alignment with the emotional trust of another person communication.


In the other thread, you basically admitted that, to you, not even basic courtesy, let alone "alignment with the emotional trust of [the other person]" is important in communication.

I have no idea your answer actually refers to, because it's definitely not what I meant.