The full email:

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"If it costs you 30 minutes at Maryland so what" -dwreal

I like that they added more race options (to appeal to a larger audience), including a flat option, but I can't believe they changed the main event to an easier bike course and a 10-mile run. I am very thankful that I was able to do the race last year in my first year of triathlon, before they nerfed it. I was so excited to go back and try to improve, but now I do not think I will be going back.

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"If it costs you 30 minutes at Maryland so what" -dwreal

I will speak up here.

As many know I created SavageMan in 2007 and handed over the reins to VTSMTS in 2014. The downward trend was already underway with participation having peaked in 2012.

While I have no "official" involvement in the event anymore I am still emotionally invested and I was involved in the changes announced today. (including the design of the new courses if that gives anyone confidence that the new SavageMan remains worthy of racing)

Anyone with eyes and half a cerebellum could see that SavageMan 2017 was not sustainable. So, there are two outcomes. Make changes or fold up shop. To Greg Hawkins's and VTSMTS's credit, they are committed to the event despite it being an exceptionally difficult one to put on. They understand they are stewards of an iconic race in the sport and simply shutting it down is not a decision made lightly.

So, changes were considered across the entire weekend to widen the appeal of the event and to inject new life and energy into the event.

The Sprint (20) and Olympic (30) are on separate days and totally separate courses. This means people that aren't ready or willing to handle the extremity of 60/70 in SavageMan terrain have option to race both days.

The format of the new 40 on Saturday is interesting and may be appealing to some, plus gives a good challenge on Saturday to those who think the 60 on Sunday is insufficient.

Why alter the 70 at all? It's pretty obvious that people like the idea of SavageMan 70 but were not able or willing to actually do it. Everyone who has done it loves it, pretty much unanimously. But new folks weren't coming and repeat customers weren't coming back. Will the changes to the 60 change that? Probably not. But, it does attempt to thread the needle of shortening it a little, while keeping it hard as hell, and simply adding change with new roads and new climbs to give people something new to experience who have done it before. All the while keeping Westernport and the tradition of the bricks intact.

Sticking to the 60, I will also state with confidence that it will still be the hardest triathlon of half-ironish distance that anyone will ever do. The bike is only 5 miles shorter, and while it eliminates the repeated blows to the face from miles 30-40, it adds in Dry Run Rd, a legitimate mountain pass. Have fun with that, everyone who thinks the new course is "watered down". Then there's the run. Now it's only 10 miles, but contains 3 hard climbs per 5 mile loop compared to the old course of 2 hard climbs per 6.5 mile loop. Guess what, there's gonna be plenty of suffering in those 10 miles.

My guess is the event is done and dusted. But without change it most certainly was. With these changes there is a chance that people will love it and the change will have injected some new life and energy into the race.

Lastly the new stretch of course is something special. For those who know SavageMan they understand how great the riding is out there. But, even by those standards, the haul along Savage River and then the climb up and out of the valley on Dry Run Rd are just phenomenal. If nothing else, before SavageMan folds up shop it needed to show to the triathlon world that these roads existed.

Yep, the masses have no interest in stuff that just kills a person.

The Auburn worlds toughest was changed to the Auburn Tri, and made more athlete friendly. Still tough, but nothing like it was. Either races change for the new customers, or they go into the history book.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

[/quote]
Lastly the new stretch of course is something special. For those who know SavageMan they understand how great the riding is out there. But, even by those standards, the haul along Savage River and then the climb up and out of the valley on Dry Run Rd are just phenomenal. If nothing else, before SavageMan folds up shop it needed to show to the triathlon world that these roads existed.[/quote]
I’ll second this last part from Kyle. The newly added stretch along Savage River is high in the fun factor. It is a TT biker’s dream with stunning scenery!

As for Dry Run: I’ve lived in this area most of my life and it is my favorite climb. Killer Miller may be gone but there is a short section at the top of Dry Run that will make you cry.

The other cool thing about this new course is that it will now cover the entire Savage River and she is a beauty.

In other words, I can't keep this on my "bucket list" any longer. I need to do it in 2018, because there may not be a 2019.

Unfortunately this decision does the exact opposite for me. After years of wanting to do this race but having irreconcilable conflicts each year -- I have even ridden/run the course in anticipation of doing the race -- I had finally committed in my mind to doing it in 2018. But I'm not doing a watered down version of this thing. No Killer Miller? Lame.

I wish we as a sport could keep races like this, but in my opinion this isn't the way to save them.

It's shorter. It's not watered down. The run course packs in MORE climbing in 3 fewer miles. The old 70 bike course finished with 13 flat "throwaway" miles. No more. Yes, the new bike course is 5 miles shorter, and may or may not be easier, but "watered down" it definitely is not. McAndrews, Otto, Killer Miller, Maynardier - all terrible, awful, miserable leg-busting climbs. But from the second you start each you know the end is in sight and the agony will be over shortly. Now you have Dry Run to contend with instead. Harder than those four steep ones in rapid succession? Probably not. But when that road kicks up to 16-18% near the top after 3 miles of steady climbing without a second of respite, talk to me about missing Maynardier Ridge.

At some point you just have to trust me. I brought you SavageMan in the first place, my word is good. I'm telling you that the 60 is worthy. It may be a disappointment that it is different, but watered down it is not. And, why not do the 20/20 double triathlon on Saturday, too? There is no way, no how that anyone does the full 100 and goes home unsatisfied. Not gonna happen.

I know there's disappointment, but the 60 is legit. Keep an open mind. And remember that more people raced the 70 in the inaugural year in 2007 than did this past year in 2017. So be happy there is a 2018 and if you want there to be a 2019, consider trusting me and trying the 60 in place of the 70 rather than abandoning ship because change must be bad.

Fair enough. I will keep this in mind and consider the race as I plan latter half of 2018 season.

I think it's hard to get people's head around different and thinking immediately that it's easier or watered down. Thanks for coming on here to explain the a little more about the changes and how it's still a brute of a course. Especially if those 13 easy/flat miles are gone from the end of the bike. That's where you prepare yourself for the run and now if they are gone it's gonna be full suffering.

Although with all the huge cassette options these days it's mechanically watered down already... ;)

I do wonder aloud if someone who sees Savageman 60 and thinks oh now I can do it versus seeing Savageman 70. Hopefully it will cost less due to the bike/run course changes so overall with the shorter events can still live on..

 I'm not so sure this new course will be any easier. Different? For sure. I just quickly mapped the new course on mapmyride and it shows 5661' of elevation gain. My strava file from this year's course shows 5568'. I know different programs write the elevation different but we are in the same ball park here. Dry Run Rd. is a legitimately hard climb. 3 miles at 7+% average with the top section just brutal. Even this is deceiving as the road does not let up after the 'official' climb. Just be glad they did not decide to throw Frank Brenneman into the equation afterwards. For me personally and my 'plus' size frame this new course will be easier. I can lock down an effort and handle the long climbs. The McCandrew's, Otto, Killer trio has me making deals with the devil by Maynardier.

It is interesting and refreshing that changes are being made. I think the new 40 really has potential and this new 60 bike course shares many of the same roads so I'm sure that saves money/time/resources. Hopefully these changes renew some excitement for the race weekend.

Thanks - your presentation makes it sound much better -- VTS/MTS should have had your help in writing the announcement. They presented it as all of the flavor, beauty, etc. etc with "much of the challenge while reducing the distance and extremity of the race just slightly. I read that (and still do) as watered down. They mention shortening the run but not that it is more difficult. I get that it comes down to money and trying to put on a race at all, but its just that the only reason a lot of people even considered getting out to Deep Creek, MD (beautiful but not exactly convenient travel wise if you aren't kind of local) was the Savageman 70.0. So if it is going to be on par with the past race as far as difficulty fine, but it seemed like they were trying to sell it as easier to recruit more people. That was the message a lot of people got from the email. And reading through all the other distances and options just honestly made my head spin.

After your take, I would consider giving the 60.0 a try in the future. I already have a race on the calendar next Sept, if it still exists in 2019, I will try to be there! I much prefer the smaller organization races, it's a shame they seem to be getting squeezed out of triathlon.

That's a bummer. A friend and fellow STer did Savageman this yr and loved it. It was on my list for the next year but now I may have to reevaluate.

I saw this on FB. I want to come back. My 2018 is about duathlon, American and then original Zofingen. Here's hoping this race makes it to 2019, and my love of suffering will still be intact.

And BTW, try though I have, again and again, I simply can't get my friends interested in these events. Their loyalties and goals seem aligned with mass produced events and the luer of qualifying for something.

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To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

I was initially heartbroken and disappointed when I read the VTSMTS email. But I feel reassured and enthused that the new Savageman will be just as savage as the original. I really wish VTSMTS had you write that announcement email. Probably wouldn't have resulted in so much backlash.

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http://trainingwheelsrequired.wordpress.com
@KellyNCollier

I'd agree with your assessment, the race is likely done and dusted. I'm a 3 timer for the "halfish" distance ('09,10,11) and it was my favorite race each of those three years and remains so today. It's the only race I've ever done where I felt the challenge as described was not at all over-hyped, To have such a scenic bike course on good road surfaces with the relentless hills and of course the Westernport Wall...what's not to love? Well, maybe the trashed legs for a week after...but aside from that, awesome race. The run, while not egregiously hard as a stand-alone was just brutal after that bike course.

So I'm left a bit mystified by my own absence at the race in recent years. I really love that race, recommend it to everyone, but just don't find myself wanting to go back. It's not that the challenge was too great...that's a big part of what drew me to the race in the first place. I've put a little thought into it on multiple occasions and finally teased it out, I think.

1) It's a commitment. I have to train for it specifically and acknowledge the 2 ton anvil it will drop on my race season.
2) It's a weekend...not a day.
3) It's very tough...but not tough enough. If this were fixed, then #1&2 above would no longer be a factor for me.

Now these are just MY reasons for not going back and I don't want to imply they are universal, but suspect I am not exactly alone either. Personally, I think the direction taken is unlikely to be successful and maybe there IS no saving the race. Just to put a number on it, I'd say there's a less than 5% chance the race survives without major changes and less than 50% chance regardless of just about any changes. That said, there are 2 things that would bring me back out there for another go or two.

1) Slowtwitch athletes and/or my friends heavily represented at the 2018 start line. I'd go for that.
or
2) Savageman 70ish tightens the branding message, cops an attitude and gets just a bit more badass...

> Lengthen the swim to 1.5-1.75 miles (tempted to go bigger here but...BIKE!)
> Lengthen the bike to 70-75 miles and put ALL the hills back in AND that new Dry Run bit...if you can...sounds awesome!
> Cap the run at 6-10 miles and no multiple loop or multiple out-n-back features (outdoor treadmills) but keep the fire trail!

I think the above would just make for a better race. The least remarkable thing about Savageman is the swim...Swan Boat and Turtle noted...it's just another swim. It's a nice lake, so why not add a little distance to the swim (if that's possible) and make that part of it's appeal? Savageman is about the bike...embrace it, don't shorten/flatten it! The run punishes legs and that's where the damage really occurs. Running 2 loops was OK but a 3 loop course is just an outdoor treadmill and who wants that? I think the race dynamics might get a little more interesting with a shorter run too.

Finally, it seems to me Savageman needs to take one of two approaches to have a chance at surviving.

The first is to become more exclusive at the front end, something along the lines of the Boston Marathon model. Maybe USAT score or ranking thresholds by AG, VTS-MTS ranking for locals (spit-balling here), time thresholds at qualifying races...multiple ways to get in, but all of them suggesting a certain level of athlete ability. I think something along those lines could save the race, but it's not the approach I would take.

The second approach is the one I would take and it would be inclusive on the front end, but exclusive on the back end...anyone can enter...but the race could embrace a certain failure rate...a high one, by having hard cutoff times for each leg of the race. When a few athletes miss an IM cutoff by seconds or minutes it becomes a big deal and ST threads get started and FB post arguments become heated and nobody is happy. That's not what I'm advocating at all. Notice how that does not happen at the Barkley event (I know...but the most extreme example is used to make a point) where EVERYBODY fails...almost. (Congrats JK!) It's not a tragedy to fail at Barkley...it's embraced as part of the experience at a stupid tough event. I think a 33-50% "failure" rate at Savageman would be awesome! Fail and you are NOT ALONE. There could be great camaraderie among those who would come back to "erase" that failure. Maybe do something along the lines of what some ultra run races do with the belt buckles for finishes within certain time standards for the front end of the race too.

I have great respect for the RD and his team as they put on outstanding events and have for a number of years. I love this race as well, if it's been on your bucket list, it's time.

I'm with you pretty much across the board here.

Here's one thing to keep in mind, though. When people say SavageMan and think SavageMan they are thinking the SavageMan 70. But, the SavageMan 70 only contributed 25% of the total athletes to the SavageMan weekend this year. It only had 140 finishers. There was more than that in the inaugural year when the event had no reputation, no credence, no nothing.

So, the changes were to attempt to increase the scope of the entire weekend while keeping an extreme option even if that extreme option is a changed version of what the event is known for.

Splitting the 20 and 30 to different days was probably the real driver here. Again, 3x more folks are doing the 20/30 than the 70, and a large number of these folks would race both the 20 and 30 if they had the opportunity. So, VTSMTS wanted them to have the opportunity. Hence the 30 and 70 are now on the same day. But the 70 is already an incredibly resource-intensive course to support and marshal and now you've got the 30 going on at the same time, a course which up through 2017 had absolutely zero overlap with the 70 course. It's not possible. Can't be done. There aren't enough police in Garrett County and volunteers available to handle both the 30 and 70 at the same time, using the old courses. So, let's consider options. You have to keep Westernport and the Wall and the bricks tradition. So the 70 (60) is going that way no matter what, which means the 30 must too. Now you're incredibly limited on options. But luckily the option of Savage River Rd and Dry Run is there. And so the 30 now dives down into Savage River Valley and comes back out Dry Run. Which means the 70 must also, and so it does.

Honestly, what VTSMTS settled on here, with my consultation and strong endorsement, is the best option. The 60 is mile-for-mile, just as hard if not harder than the 70. The split of the 20 and 30 to separate days is a good move. The new 20/20 double triathlon will be fun and is a great option for those who think the change of the 70 has made things too easy.

I do hope people have an open mind and give the event a chance, because I'm quite confident these changes will be an overall improvement. I do hope that VTSMTS puts resources into promoting it, marketing it, preaching the positive. Because the anger and vehemence I'm seeing on facebook is really more than I anticipated, and I expected there to be pushback. But, man, no one does the 70 anymore, why is there so much anger that VTSMTS would therefore make changes?

Oh man, I read this email with a lump in my throat. I had a feeling that this year would be the last Savageman but I'm glad to see it's back for 2018.

Kyle's exactly right. As much as I'm not a numbers guy you have to give the people what they want and they want the shorter, less extreme races that are still a unique experience. Any growth in this race was all on the Saturday schedule and not the Sunday 70.0 race. That bums me out! Savageman is literally the only reason I attempt to swim throughout the year lol...

They have to do right for the business they are in so I understand. But man, if the race doesn't look like it has longevity on it's side, double down and make it close to 140 miles total, invite all the past participants, do a relay, and go out with a bang! I'd gladly pay what other IM races cost just to try it. I want to know if anyone can do the bike course twice and still run for a marathon!

Yeah I'm with you, I don't get it. The 70 has been dwindling down in numbers for years. A change sounded necessary to support the brutal challenge that is the Savageman.

Maybe enough people will sign up for the 30 to keep the longer race afloat.

That does seem like the Savage way to go out. But, I don't think VTSMTS is ready to committing to going out, however.

I do think, though, that they should do something crazy, like a full IM version, every Olympic year or something.

I got that email, too. I live in the area, so I have done either the oly or the 70 almost every year since I started triathlons. I am glad that I had a chance to do the full 70 course before it was changed, but if this change is needed to save the race, then I support it. They were smart and left the wall in, which I think is a big draw for people. Am I reading it right that they put the fire road back in the run course for the 30? I was very disappointed that they took that out. As a trail runner, I could make up some time on that stretch.

In a way, I am relieved to see the race shortened. It still won't be easy, but I am thinking that next year, I would like to do more, shorter races instead of focusing on just a couple longer races. I am close enough to the course, that I can always find friends who want to ride it with me while I train, which makes me extra lucky. Bonus: when I was running this summer, I found a hill less than two miles from my house that is over 25% for longer than the wall, so I can really get ready for that brick.

I wish we as a sport could keep races like this, but in my opinion this isn't the way to save them.


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Ok then what is the way to save them?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

That is a very cool idea! As a Canadian, I've had this event on my watch list for a while, but the combo of life or other closer races have kept me from coming and doing it.

This change doesn't really lessen my interest, but the reality is, there is alot of races at that time of year to pick from. Blowing it up, every 4 years to an epic distance (as you suggested) may really help pull people, like myself to come from afar and make it priority. I don't envy the job of RD though... Pros and cons to everything!

Stop WTC. How exactly, I don’t know. And I’m part of the problem.

Yes, the fire tower road is in the run course for both the 30 and 60.

I might check out the 20/20 race. I hope to one day got the hills again out there. Was an amazing race. I would love to see my brick too!

I'm kinda bummed about the early pricing for some of these races (vtsmts). They are starting the early registration prices at 75 for a sprint. That seems way too high to me. I will try a few this next year and maybe move on from this. I like training and I enjoy my roadie.

Prices go up tonight. I've scheduled a calendar reminder to register the wife and I tonight (after I've started drinking). Finally going to do it. Anyone else with me?

Might use as "tuneup" for IMAZ as I've always wanted to do this race.

Travelling from Kansas City also?

I'm in for the 20/20 and 60. Really excited. Races like this really keep me motivated.

70 is back for 2019.

And this:

Big Savage Challenge
3 days of racing. $10,000 in prize money. Lowest cumulative time wins. Select Big Savage Challenge when registering for a multi-event discount.
Friday – Swim-Run Prologue / Saturday – Olympic / Sunday – Long Course

anyone know if the race happened in 2018? I didn't see any results.

Glad that they brought the 70 back, since I had it on my bucket list for a while. Doing it this year and didn't realize that there were this many iterations of the race. Looks like about 500 athletes signed up for the various events, so while there will only be about 100 for the 70, there are at least people signing up for the shorter ones. Admittedly though since they are on different days, it ads to the costs/logistics.

The race was canceled due to weather. It was borderline apocalyptic here in Maryland with all the rain last year and a lot of local events were canceled or modified due to being in a constant state of flood.

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Level II USAT Coach | Level 3 USAC Coach | NASM-CPT
Team Zoot | Tailwind Trailblazer
I can tell you why you're sick, I just can't write you an Rx

I remember thinking that it was canceled due to the rain when I was looking but couldn't remember specifically if that weekend was actually bad. But now I can see I rode inside on a Saturday that weekend (I'm out near Frederick), but thought the weekend before was the crazy one.

Wow, just 100 in the 70. That's depressing. Gonna be lonely out there. In the peak years it had about 600 registrants and 500 actually racing on course and 250+ people earning bricks to go in the road. I sure hope they get more than 100 out there, although that will sure make for less congestion on the Wall. :)

I think it’s closer to 200? Site shows 132, and then another 67 for the big savage challenge (plus 4 relays and 15 aqua bikes)

That sounds a lot better. Still way down from the peak years of 2011-13, but pretty consistent with the past few years. So, that's good. Sasquatch will have a lot more difficulty isolating single riders atop Big Savage Mountain to take back to his lair.

It's going to be awesome I think we're going to have a good amount of people from st there

I think the answer is simple. Support (= enter) indi events, not WTC ones.
Indies are flourishing in the UK, because people keep entering them.

I rode up there for a few days in June and did the GCGF and am chiming in to say the roads there are incredible. If you are on the fence, you have to go do this race. Just beautiful. You will not regret it.

Cam Wurf's been doing a lot of training out there. Not many KOMs left around for others to have....

I didn't mean around to say <= 100. But i did forget to add in the big savage challenge racers.

About the same size as the ex2 xterra in flintstone.

Im pre riding the course tomorrow, nice that this heat wave finally broke. Im hoping to do pretty well in my age group but there will be some fast people in the 40-44 group.

I'm in 40 - 44. I hope just to be middle of the pack. There are some studs in our AG.

It's a gorgeous freaking day. And high of 67. I'm going to go out on a limb and wager that you had a most enjoyable ride today.

It was phenomenal out there. Very nice ride. I'm going to post up my thoughts on the other thread for this year's race.

Do a roll call with ur thoughts?