I race sprints and 70.3, but did many decently hard 4-5 hour weekend long rides with friends who were training for 140.6 in the summer when the weather was good. When the sun it out, it's fun to ride your bike.

I did a lot of trainer rides 3-3.5 hours this fall building into my 70.3, and tried to get my TSS and kj numbers for those long rides a good deal higher than the ride I was planning in my race, so that meant 3-3.5 hours was the right number for me.

My long runs were anywhere from 12-15 miles, but, more importantly in my mind, I was running 5x week and hitting 40-45 miles consistently for several weeks in my build.

In my own experience, make your run easier by making your bike ride easier. Focus on the bike. Then, to answer your question, make sure you're doing at least a ten mile run to get ready. Ideally, you're doing 18-20 mile runs toward the end of your prep. In the end, just go complete the race...

4.5 hours

Not a coach, take as you will


Assuming you want to "Race" the 70.3, then we need to add in not just discussion about how long does the workout need to be but also about intensity. I can slog away for hours & hours at bottom of zone 2 but I won't get much faster (assuming I am not just starting out).

If you are in the final build toward race day (say 10 - 14 weeks away), I don't see any reason to do an 18-20 mile run in prep (unless of course you just like to run long). I can see a nice healthy dose of 12 - 16 mile workouts with some of the miles at a slight bit faster than open HM pace and a few workouts like 20-20-20 negative split after coming off the bike. Same idea on the bike. Up to 3 to 3.5 hours or so with a good 2+ hours at a bit better than race pace. A nice 30 - 30 - 30 negative split ride ending with last 30 minutes as hard as you can is a lot of fun too.

If you are in winter and are still months away, then for running, run often, run mostly slow and occasionally add in some strides. I think the 40 - 50 miles a week is pretty good. I like to do most of my runs that are a little more than an hour with 1 run per week a nice slow 40 minutes and 1 run a week building up to 2 hours, maybe a little more. Weekends are almost always double workouts too with both a run and a bike (not a brick). For the bike, ride a lot and do a good amount of workouts like 3 x 15 or 2x20 at 95% of ftp and some over/unders with a nice long steady state ride on the weekend say 3 hours with a lot of it at 80%. Do some run races in the offseason. I like to do 5K and 10K races to add in some "speed" workouts and break up the monotony

(I don't swim so have no idea on adding that to the mix)

To go from 3+ hours to 2:45 is all about being able to maintain a sufficiently aero position for the duration of your race. Ie, most people can do 20 mph on a flat course with 2.5-2.75 w/kg. So your riding should be all about figuring out how to stay in aero for the duration of the race. Do you need rides much longer than that? Probably not.

This[/quote]

I didn't train enough in my first two 70.3 attempts. I bonked the run on both and did a lot of walking. On my third attempt, I was ready. I believe you must train at well over the bike and run distances (56 miles and 13 miles) multiple times. In my peak month prior, I road 70 miles on Saturdays and ran 16.5 on Sundays. I did this over 4 consecutive weekends. I also threw in some 25 mile / 3-6 mile bricks for good measure. This got me over the top and I finally raced well in last attempt -
there was no bonking!

---

"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

What were the weekly volumes for each discipline during those 4 weeks?

As someone up above mentioned, it's not just distance, it's distance and intensity.

What has worked for me is going at race intensity for up to 50 miles on the bike followed by 5-6 miles on the run. I raced very well off of that. Keep in mind for the 2 months prior I was working up to those distances at race intensity.

There is still obviously a time and place for longer standalone rides/runs at less than race effort, but I think this approach for the brick is very beneficial.

I just turned 53. I had shoulder surgery last Dec. and couldn't ride a bike until March. I ran, some (starting sometime in January).....and started swimming 3/22 and biking sometime around the first of the month. I'm pretty sure my longest run in prep for Choo (in May) was 14 mi. My long rides were probably 60-70 miles.....and those were not very numerous. I'm also a bigger guy (193#). My Choo time was 5:35:xx.

My previous two races were 70.3's also......each around 6 hours.

What were the weekly volumes for each discipline during those 4 weeks?[/quote]


About 10 hours a week. I don't think I ever went over 12 hours.

---

"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

I'm with most others in that long ride is >3 hrs (or 60 mi) and long run is >1 hr 45 min (or 14 mi). But as has been mentioned several times, proper intensity during those rides/runs is critical.

I'd be inclined to do longer rides than that. You really don't want the race distance or duration on the bike to be anywhere near your limit as starting the run in good shape is rather important. Also, unlike running, long cycles don't tend to batter your body unless you really overdo it on intensity. Most of my higher intensity training rides are in the 60-90 minute range. Over winter most of my longer rides will be 2-2.5hrs (one per week). However, early in spring I'll start increasing distance for the long rides and I expect to be doing 3.5-4hrs on a fairly regular basis prior to doing any mid distance races. On the bike, you want to be able to produce the power and you want to be able to sustain it in comfort. My training is a combination of rides shorter than my races but with a higher intensity and rides longer than my races but with a lower intensity. The race is where it comes together. Training is not necessarily best done by performing race simulations.

I spent the first half of this year training for a very tough, mountainous sportive in the Alps, the Marmotte Des Alpes. I was on my road bike for any outdoor rides but also did sweetspot/threshold/VO2max intensity trainer sessions on the Tri bike to supplement it. I spent most of my long rides climbing long steep hills and staying on the bike for 4-5hrs. My endurance on the bike ended up better than it's ever been. After the Marmotte, I had 6 weeks to prepare for a flat 70.3 which had originally been my A race until it was usurped by the Marmotte. When I got on the tri-bike outside on flat roads I was stunned by how fast I'd gotten. I was very significantly faster than before. Riding hills really does seem to work wonders for bike performance, in my case anyway.

I did a handful of long rides on the tri bike to ensure I was still comfortable in the aero position and the turbo sessions seemed to have left me ready to happily ride the tri-bike. In the race I massively outperformed my predicted bike time and still arrived at the run in good shape. I'd undertrained for the run due to my bike focus until shortly before the race but my comfort on the bike meant I was still able to do a decent (for me!) run. I had built hastily from almost zero running up to doing just a couple of 15km long runs before the 70.3. Next year I plan to back off a little on the bike, from 4-5hr long rides to probably 3.5-4hrs. That'll free up some time for more running. I plan to run based somewhat on the BarryP plan. 5 or 6 runs a week, with these peaking somewhere around 55km per week. That would mean I would do three 5.5km short runs per week, two 11km runs per week and one 16.5km run per week. Depending on how things go I might increase that to 6km, 12km and 18km. I think you want to be very comfortable on the bike and providing you can find the time, long, medium intensity, rides are easy to accommodate in your training. Long runs are more problematic, at least for me, because they need much more recovery.

Not sure what the goal of the question is. If you want a faster bike leg, you'll have to train at an intensity quite a bit above that power AND you might do well to do endurance rides and steady state rides in the 2-3 hour range. And do those all the time.


I haven't tried a 70.3 yet, so take my bike advice with a grain of salt.

I consider a metric century my "long" ride if I plan to go on a ride "at pace" the entire time. Meaning for a metric, I'll go at an IF at or above 90%. I'm a "time crunched athlete". I've got 6 hours a week, max. So I'm a little different from the norm for this stuff.

I don't have time for LSB or endless hours of base miles.

But I do a 2 - 3 hour road ride every week, even if I don't have anything coming up. All year. Those rides in the 2 1/2 hr range can have an IF of 90% plus.

If I had to do a 1/2 IM and wanted to improve my bike time, I'd probably either outdoors or indoors do a lot of tough sweetspot and over/under interval workouts. Sweetspot being above a 1/2 IM bike split pace.

Like this:
-10 min warmup, up 10 watts per 30 secs to sweetspot, then do a 1 min power interval to get things moving
-dip back into sweetspot (90%) of ftp for 30min to 1hr
-easy spin for 8-12 min
-repeat the sweetspot another 30min to 1hr
-or try for just a full 1-hour long sweetspot interval if you don't have much time, FOCUS
Example:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1266799496

OR

-warmup
-over unders, over at ftp and under at 92% ftp......1 min over 2 min under.....8 to 12 min per rep
-8 min rest between sets, do 3 to 5 sets
Example:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1222568596

Don't laugh at my examples. I'm not the strongest person in the world, but I got that stuff from a Carmichael plan. It worked pretty well.

The power interval stuff probably isn't very helpful for a bike leg in a 70.3. It would tickle up your ftp either way, but meh.....you're not road racing.

n=1. I went 2:45/1:48. I did multiple 60 mile bike rides right around my bike split wattage. I finished those with 10-30 min run. I ALWAYS ran the next day at my half marathon split pace or faster. Typically most runs were 12-14 miles. A lot of these rides/runs were fast finish. Meaning I'd start at my split wattage/pace and then pick it up the last 20-30 minutes.

I only train 8-10 hours a week so I do a lot of the higher intensity runs/rides during the week.

I disagree with most people on this topic. I went sub 5hr this past September in my 2nd half ironman ever and my longest ride was 3hr long followed up with a 30min run. And my longest straight run was 2hr. All my workouts were time based not distance based and would go hard up hills and try and find the wind if I could. Everybody is different I guess play with one strategy this time and if you didn't like the results change it for next time.

"Long" is defined by any run or ride whereupon completion of same I am greeted by D'Wife with: "Where the fuck have you been?"

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Interesting.

I feel the same about the bike, but a 10k (6~ miles) at HIM effort is a tough workout to recover from during a hard training block/build. I mean, if I'm not training much and go out and run 10k @ HIM pace it's obviously a pretty quick recover. But during a hard training cycle, I'll most likely do these sessions tired and with heavy-ish legs,so it's a lot tougher both from a performance and from a recovery point of view.

Exactly!

I have been riding 100% indoor and then the variation is: "Ffs, I can't believe you're still there."

What's your weekly run mileage? I didn't find it hard to recover from those at all.

40-45 miles per week, the vast majority of it very easy (7:50-8min/mile) and volume through frequency (6-7 runs per week).
HIM pace is around 6:55-7min/mile.

But on further thinking, most of the 10k runs @ HIM pace that fucked up my recovery were done when I was already pretty wrecked. I mean, it's probably an issue of overall accumulated fatigue.

Ok so pretty good mileage. I had done a good run block leading into that, so had done plenty of running a lot faster than HIM pace so maybe that's the difference.

Yeah, I have been upping my mileage and my frequency slowly. First few weeks of 6-7 runs were tough, but eventually the legs got used to it.

Thanks.

I also agree with this 'less is more' philosophy to to 70.3 (and others).

My fastest 70.3 was on no bike rides over 3hrs outdoors, and no trainer rides over 2.5 hrs, and I only did such a longer ride 1x/week, and probably only 5-6 of the 3 hrs rides prior to race day, with the remaining weekends being 1-2 hr rides.

There was no slacking on these rides, though. I rode them as nearly as hard as I could while maintaining as even a power output as possible and not blowing up which ends up being mostly z3 on flats and z4 on hills, but easy pedaling on downhills so it averages out to Z2-3.

I ran up to 13 miles in a single run in training as well having a running background, but again, the buildup to my best race involved 8-11 milers 1x/week as the long run (but closer to a 9.5 mile long run on avg.)

For me at least, the definite benefit of the decreased volume of overall training was increase in hard day intensity, and as race day approached, increased overall intensity.

I tried doing the 70mpw rides several times prior to race day with 15-18 mile runs back to back on Sat/Sun but it absolutely destroyed me,even if I was taking the rest of the week mostly easy. My races were 'ok but meh' with this training, was actually a little depressing that I could just of 'meh' performances on so much volume. Felt a LOT more snappy and ready to rock with the faster, lower volume approach, and had no bonkage problems whatsoever.

And FWIW, I am NOT someone who thrives on low-volume training - it's just that pushing those 75+mpw bikes + big runs didn't gun enough top-end speed for me to race 70.3 as fast as I could. (That type of volume would likely work well if I was IM training though.)

My 70.3 prep was similar.

I would do the above workout on Saturday. 50-60 miles on bike followed immediately with 5-6 mile run. The intensity on the bike was race pace, the run was easier and intended just to get the legs used to running off the bike. After the Saturday workout I would do an ice bath and get plenty of fluids and protein to help recover and get ready for the Sunday workout.

Sunday workout would be 30-40 miles slightly slower than race pace followed immediately by a 10ish mile tempo run building speed and effort through the 9 mile mark (starting pace was slower than race pace, ending pace was faster than race pace) and then shutting it down and warming down over the last mile or two. If I didn't have enough base, didn't dial in the hydration/nutrition, or overcooked the bike, I would blow up on the Sunday run. If I had the conditioning, nailed the hydration/nutrition, and the pacing, I was flying (for me) at the end of my Sunday run.

Good luck with your preparations and enjoy the journey!!

---

Tad

It took awhile, but I finally discovered that its not the destination that's important, but rather the journey.

At that pace though your bike leg is only, what, 2 1/2 hours plus/minus 10min? That's a meaningful amount more than 3 hours.

So you had a longest ride of 30 min longer than a 2 1/2 hr split.

That would be the same as a person on a 3 hr split having a longest ride of 3 1/2 hrs. So, the slower you are the longer your bike training rides may take time wise. That's why you tell new cyclists to train by hours, not distance. When you are a noob cyclist you plod along for 2 hours and manage 28 miles. Then when faster you manage 35 miles with hills.

Pretty sure the Time Crunched Triathlete book has rides longer than 3 hours in it.

3 hour long rides are fine for a half ironman, as are 1.5 hour runs. any run over 1.15 is a "long" run imo.

So very true and very well said.

that is good mileage for HIM training, but personally i do not think that that is a very easy pace for running given your HIM pace.
As a point of reference, my HIM pace is 6:20-6:30, and I do the vast majority of my running at 8:00 or even 8:30, sometimes 9:00 if I feel tired and it's warm.
So your legs were probably thrashed because you are not doing enough truly easy running.

I think that a 50 mile ride at HIM pace followed by 10K run at HIM pace is a really, really tough workout in the context of a hard training cycle. I personally would not recommend that more than once or twice, unless my overall volume was very low, because the recovery cost would be too high.

My second point is that I have raced two HIMs now off of a long ride of no longer than 1.5 hours (continuous, on trainer). Total weekly bike volume averaging about 4 hours, lots of intensity. And lots of running too (~50mpw). I biked well at 78% IF, and ran well, about 1:25 off of a ~1:20 open half marathon fitness. And I'm a shitty swimmer and don't swim much at all, so that puts me behind the eight ball as soon as the gun goes off.

I'm sure I would have had a higher FTP and maybe could have biked at 80 or low 80s IF, but I didn't have time in my life to do long rides.

Bottom line is that you can race HIM quite well without long rides at all. If you like doing them, do them, but just know that they are not really necessary unless you are trying to eke out that last few percent of performance. IM is a different beast though, gotta do the long rides for IM.

lately I have just been running, a lot, for marathon training. I was commenting to my buddy the other day, any run less than 16 miles isn't a long run, it's just a run. Obviously this is not applicable nor necessarily advisable for vast majority of triathletes doing triathlon training. But then again most triathletes are crappy runners.

solitude...how much time does it take you to run 16 miles? (ie 25.6kms) you must be pretty quick if you don't consider that long?

how many hours in a week does it take you to run 50 miles as you stated above?

plenty of elite itu guys/gals don't run much longer than 1.5 hours in a single run.

I was about to make a similar comment.

I think it's wise to ride longer duration in training than you will in the race. Distance is not the critical factor. Wind and terrain can dramatically impact the time it takes to cover a given distance. I think 3.5hrs is a sensible long training ride duration if you expect to ride about 2.5hrs where I am at the moment for rolling/flat routes. If you expect to take in the region of 3hrs, then I'd be doing slighty longer rides. Maybe 3.5-4hrs. If you have the time, I think even longer rides, some of it at lower intensity, will do no harm. A lot of guys here seem to be working very hard on their long rides (and runs). I prefer to work really hard on short mid-week rides and then take it a lot easier for the longer stuff at the weekend. I'll do occasional hard long rides in late spring to see how I hold up when I push the intensity on long rides, but if you make all your rides hard work, that tends to dull you and the result is that your shorter, harder rides become less intense IMO. Making every ride a heavy workout kills my enthusiasm. Variety and recovery please!

Long rides don't require huge recovery unless you ride them at excessive intensity.
I'd often do 2x20mins@95%FTP with 4 minute recovery. Add a 15 minute recovery and 10 minute cool down and that's 69 minutes. I usually do these on the trainer but distance wise, for me, it's equivalent to maybe a 37-38km ride. I'd typically need at least as much recovery from that, done well, as from my lower intensity 3-4hr ride in the mountains.

My peak weekends for my last 70.3 had a long Saturday ride of 2.5 to 3 hrs, and a Sunday brick of 45min-1hr on the bike and 10-12 mile run.

I'd still put an asterisk on my 2:37 bike split at Muncie because the air gets so soft in Mdot races, and my run was 2:05.

What does this mean?

Usually about 2hrs 10 min, right around 8:00min/mile pace. Long runs take a lot less out of me when I run them easy. Same with the 50mpw. Probably takes me about 6.5-7 hours weekly, but the vast majority is at an easy pace.

Agree that my approach is not for everyone. More for people with a ton of run mileage in the legs and on a run-heavy tri training program. If I run them easy enough, 16 miles doesn't impose much of a recovery cost at all. Keep in mind that the ITU run is less than half the distance of a HIM run, and that they are doing way more weekly volume than I am which increases the recovery cost of a run longer than 1.5 hrs.

anyway, just want to add my contrarian perspective to the thread. I don't think you really need super long runs or long rides to race a good HIM, but if you have the time doing both is great, and if I had to pick one or the other I would go with long runs.

The corollary would be: Twice as long as it takes for you to say "Oh shit! I'd better get home"

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

About 10 hours a week. I don't think I ever went over 12 hours.[/quote]


Meant to say (in terms of breakdown per discipline) about 3-4 hours of running, 1 hour of swimming, 5-7 hours of riding (per week)

---

"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

I don't quite understand what you are saying here. Do you think I need to up my volume/distance? not trying to sound pessimistic just a general ask, I am also always curious to others training and attempting to learn.

ya what does this mean?

If I'm not mistaken, he's suggesting that a 3hr long ride for an athlete who will be completing the bike leg in around 2.5hrs is significantly longer duration than the race. For an athlete expecting to take 3hrs or more in the race this is not the case, so perhaps a weaker athlete needs more endurance? I would agree with that.

Weaker athletes are on the course for longer. For example a very weak runner could spend as long doing a half marathon as a really competitive runner would take to do a full marathon. So, if they're racing the same distance, it doesn't make much sense to automatically recommend they do equal duration long runs. The weaker athlete actually needs considerably more endurance and will be forced to operate at lower intensity to permit this.

I think he means:

When you ride in a pack, you have less wind to fight. (He was drafting).

Ooooh! That didn't even occur to me.
Why didn't he just say what he meant..."My bike time is not legitimate. I cheat."?

....LOL. Very good one. And I guess kind of true for many of us....especially with kids.

Before my first/only(?) IM i once did a 100 mile bike ride followed by a 10 mile run.

That still amazes me months later as an "I can't believe that seemed like a reasonable way to spend a Saturday morning". It was great at the time but back in the realms of just "normal" training now i couldn't imagine doing that sort of thing.

Thanks for the feedback.

I agree that it doesn't look "easy" enough, but I run basically on perceived effort and don't care much about the pace. Running slower than 5min/km (8min/mile) just feels super odd ans sometimes I feel it is harder to run like that than at a "natural" pace, one with a little more turnover and that makes my mechanics better.

Makes sense?

OP, for what it's worth Joel Friel's Triathlete's Training Bible states:

"A general rule of thumb is that the longest workouts should be about the same duration as, or slightly longer than that discipline's leg of the longest race you will compete in. There are obvious exceptions at both ends of the race-duration spectrum. For example, it's not wise when training for an Ironman to go the full race distance in all three disciplines in a single workout, but training at twice sprint-distance duration can be beneficial."

thanks everyone. A lot to digest.
my A race is Vineman 2018, so not until next July. Just getting back into it, but my runs have been 10-miles on Saturday. Those will go to 12 in December, and stay at 2-hour pace while my body re-adjusts to running. I re-read the BarryP stuff, and it's going to be very tough for me to schedule 6 runs/week over the Winter. I'll be at 9-10 hours/week until Spring: 2 hours swim (3x), 3-4 hours bike (3x) and the rest running.
For the cycling, during my 3 weekly turbo sessions, I plan to get up to 2 hours, but no more, for Winter. Once the weather breaks (and in California it's usually just fine by March), I will get some 60s in there. I do like all the suggestions for intensity on those as well, instead of just rolling around for 3 hours.
Thanks again for all the input.
Michael

I did two 90/14's in my IM build. Seemed nuts, then.....and seems nuts, now.

If I was you, I wouldn't try and spread the cycling time around too much, by which I mean I'd keep the short rides relatively short (say 60-90mins) and if possible allocate more time to the weekend long ride. So if you've say 6hrs to spend on the bike, don't do 3x2hrs or 2x1.5hrs and 1x3hrs. Instead do 1x60mins, 1x75mins and 1x3.5hrs or similar.

Best to make your hard rides hard and your long ones long rather than make everything kinda hard and kinda long. It'll have better impact and be more interesting.

I've just started a BarryP style approach and I'm getting 2 short & easy runs in by tagging them onto the end of my two weekday short hard trainer sessions as a Brick. It saves time doing them back to back, you only get changed once and have one shower. Wouldn't work with a longer run or anything above easy recovery effort since I'm already spent from the bike session.
So far this working well but my run volume is still small. Will see after Christmas when my volume is climbing whether this continues to work but I think it will.
My plan will hit 10-12hrs per week after Christmas and would be very sufficient training for a 70.3 IMO.

I completely agree. I’ve broken the upcoming training into 3, major, blocks.
Now-Jan 1st: Run/Bike only (no pool access). Ramping up from, currently, 6 1/2 hours to 9. Run 2x 1hr, 1x 2 hour. For me, @9:30 pace, that should be about race distance, but at Z2 for now. Biking is all Turbo, doing the Zwift FTP-builder. I think the longest one there is about 90 min or so. Anything “blue” and above, I stay in aero. Tonight, week 3, work 1, is 6x 6:00 at 70% FTP. So I’ll spend 36 minutes in aero. My last 70.3 races I wasn’t able to stay down long, and it hurt my time for sure.
Jan-March: 3 months where I add back the swimming (which will add 2 hours/week). I’m thinking I’ll add 15-20 min. Of running either before or after, BarryP style. But I’ll still be keeping my long runs to 2 hours. I’ll be switching to race pace for the second half, however. I’ll also switch my Sun rides on the Turbo to more free form and get in the 2-2 1/2 hour range. My goal for this block is 10-12 hours/week.
April-July: get back outside on the bike, and get some 60 milers (which is about 3 1/2 hours in Z2-3), and get some 14-16 mile runs in as well. With more day light, I can run off the bike mid-week too.
I’m also, generally, doing my long runs on Saturday. This is an injury-reduction strategy for me. Running 2 hours on dead legs after a long ride is necessary training, but for most of the year I prefer to flip it.
Anything grossly wrong here?
Michael

What I was saying is that Mdot bike courses are crowded enough that even riding clean, you're in someone's draft zone and getting SOME benefit for a lot of the time. I actually overbiked in that race trying to keep myself clean to the letter of the rules.

I'm probably a legit 2:45ish bike on a flat course, probably could have biked 2:30 that day if I wanted to cheat like the rest of the lemmings.