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Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt?
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I didn't really pay close attention to the Lance Armstrong drug saga. He'd been a hero and the whole drug thing was kinda demoralizing. I'd have to say tho, that I never really understood why the powers-that-be went after him so hard. Educate me pls.

Maybe the International folks (UCI) didn't like him?
Maybe the US folks wanted to demonstrate their commitment to clean racing?
Maybe I'm wrong in my perception that the aggressiveness of the pursuit of him was unusual?

Your thoughts?

For those of you that might be angry types by nature and see a dark cloud everywhere, I do not "troll", I do not deliberately try to stir up trouble. Ever. So pls can we skip that drama?

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
I didn't really pay close attention to the Lance Armstrong drug saga. He'd been a hero and the whole drug thing was kinda demoralizing. I'd have to say tho, that I never really understood why the powers-that-be went after him so hard. Educate me pls.

Maybe the International folks (UCI) didn't like him?
Maybe the US folks wanted to demonstrate their commitment to clean racing?
Maybe I'm wrong in my perception that the aggressiveness of the pursuit of him was unusual?

Your thoughts?

For those of you that might be angry types by nature and see a dark cloud everywhere, I do not "troll", I do not deliberately try to stir up trouble. Ever. So pls can we skip that drama?

I've read some of the books and watched some of the documentaries. It seemed they wanted to get him for a few reasons:
1. He won a lot
2. Hardly anyone that is at that level is clean but they couldn't catch him so it became a mission
3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even
4. Jealousy - they couldn't dope as well as him (The riders)
5. He constantly challenged them to catch him

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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He cheated. He broke the rules. I understand he is your special boy but rules aren't set up to be flexible on the amount of likeability. You can be upset by this because he made you feel good but again, he cheated.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
I didn't really pay close attention to the Lance Armstrong drug saga. He'd been a hero and the whole drug thing was kinda demoralizing. I'd have to say tho, that I never really understood why the powers-that-be went after him so hard. Educate me pls.

Maybe the International folks (UCI) didn't like him?
Maybe the US folks wanted to demonstrate their commitment to clean racing?
Maybe I'm wrong in my perception that the aggressiveness of the pursuit of him was unusual?

Your thoughts?

For those of you that might be angry types by nature and see a dark cloud everywhere, I do not "troll", I do not deliberately try to stir up trouble. Ever. So pls can we skip that drama?


I've read some of the books and watched some of the documentaries. It seemed they wanted to get him for a few reasons:
1. He won a lot
2. Hardly anyone that is at that level is clean but they couldn't catch him so it became a mission
3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even
4. Jealousy - they couldn't dope as well as him (The riders)
5. He constantly challenged them to catch him

Add to this, he apparently mistreated, threatened, and lied to a lot of people along the way, giving not too many people reason to defend him, and plenty reason to rat him out.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even

They knew he was dirty because they were dirty and still couldn't beat him.

In a sense Lance won fair and square.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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He's a Cowboys fan

https://soundcloud.com/...with-lance-armstrong

That's all I need


****

To be honest, I enjoyed his "Stages" Podcast during the TDF

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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He was a colossal dick to a lot of people, which came back to bite him in the ass. On top of that he maintained his innocence long after the doping horse was out of the barn and everyone else had been caught and/or more or less come clean on the nature of the game.

That put a huge target on his back.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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And he was a world class asshole to anyone daring to question him about doping. I believe that alone contributed more to his fall from grace than the actual doping.

I raced SuperFrog in 2012 when LA was attempting his triathlon comeback. The race was less than a month from the release of USADA's reasoned decision. LA was treated like a god by the race organizers (got to park his RV in transition), athletes and spectators where tripping over themselves to be around him. After the race he gave a long impassioned speech about those who don't believe in miracles, yada, yada, yada. Anyone who has been paying attention leading up to USADA's report knew what was coming, it was was so eye opening to what another human being act to oblivious to the facts surrounding his own situation.

LA's absolute refusal to tell the truth in the face of overwhelming evidence he and his teams doped very much led to possible an over-aggressive prosecution. But, it's a bed of his own making.

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
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3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even


They knew he was dirty because they were dirty and still couldn't beat him.

In a sense Lance won fair and square.

I'd agree with this. He focused his entire team on one race and bested everyone for 7 years. Repeat winning is hard.

But, I'd say the reason for the hate is that he was an evangelist for clean racing while lying about racing dirty. Drugs, threats, retribution, etc. Lance professed to have his clean "god" on his side, all others be damned. For that, the extra hate.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Given how doping was systemic throughout the sport, I don't really understand the logic behind why he's taken the fall so hard. I understand how he's taken the fall, just not the logic behind it in comparison to others within the sport. Hell, on Mt. Ventoux stands a monument to Tom Simpson, who died during the race because of his doping. Pantani is still regarded as a hero. Ulrich wasn't stripped of titles. It was everywhere. But as for why he's taken the fall, it's a combo of the following, in my opinion:
  • He was brash, brazen, consistently a "fuck everyone" attitude. He burned bridges with the same frequency and carelessness that the rest of us take a leak. You can't make enemies with his consistency and not have a weakness exposed and turned on you.
  • What he did in the sport itself wasn't supposed to happen with a North American, dominating the biggest race on the calendar as he did. He was apparently more well-accepted and regarded in France than one would think, but still wasn't really liked. Nonetheless, it wasn't the UCI that undid him.
  • His comeback rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Landis, the only other person ever to have a TdF title stripped from his epic 2006 race (man, he was whiskey fueled!), wanted a spot on Team Radioshack when Lance came back in 2009. Lance put a stop to that, which pissed Landis off, and Landis went postal (see what I did there?), initiating the whistleblower investigation.
  • U.S.A.D.A. wants to prove a point that "Americans are clean and better than that." It's BS, really. Lance's teammates were given fake suspensions -- 6 months suspended from competition during their normal off seasons...so just like any other off season for them. Lance was the face of it all, profited financially the most. USADA has already banned him for life from any WADA types of events, U.S. Postal hasn't lost any money from L.A.'s doping, sounds like U.S. Postal actually did quite well from their publicity, and the only reason U.S. Postal may be in a financial bind now has much more to do with changes to how people do commerce & the regulations imposed on them than it does with a fringe-sport athlete that the vast majority of the public doesn't follow enough to have a clue that U.S. Postal was even a sponsor let alone the details of a lawsuit against him.
  • Allegedly, the doping program he was a part of was unfair because it was more advanced, more technical, and far superior to all of the other programs out at the time, run on a team-wide scale, highly organized in a way that was different than individual athletes doing their own doping. At best, that argument against L.A. seems dubious to me.

It's really a joke. Lots of people profited and won't be returning their earnings; Trek wouldn't be the company they are without L.A. It's also funny to me that the most esteemed cyclist in history, Eddie Merckx (whose brand of bike I'm about to go for a lunchtime ride on), was booted out of a Giro for doping & I believe temporarily banned a second time...yet he's still loved almost universally and invited to be the face of many UCI events. Indurian is still a god in Spain. Vinokoruv almost certainly purchased races, not an uncommon practice at one time, and UCI now turns a blind eye to his involvement in Astana. And on and on and on.


I don't like the attitude L.A. comported himself with, don't like that even in his now seemingly more humble state he still seems to want to come across with the arrogance of being "the man," don't like that the sport was fueled by doping, but if you have high level sports you're going to have doping. I just don't see him as being any more guilty in that respect than anyone else was. Guilty of being the biggest asshole in the sport? Absolutely. But that's not what the lawsuit is about.



RangerGress wrote:
I didn't really pay close attention to the Lance Armstrong drug saga. He'd been a hero and the whole drug thing was kinda demoralizing. I'd have to say tho, that I never really understood why the powers-that-be went after him so hard. Educate me pls.


Maybe the International folks (UCI) didn't like him?
Maybe the US folks wanted to demonstrate their commitment to clean racing?
Maybe I'm wrong in my perception that the aggressiveness of the pursuit of him was unusual?

Your thoughts?

For those of you that might be angry types by nature and see a dark cloud everywhere, I do not "troll", I do not deliberately try to stir up trouble. Ever. So pls can we skip that drama?

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:

I've read some of the books and watched some of the documentaries. It seemed they wanted to get him for a few reasons:
1. He won a lot
2. Hardly anyone that is at that level is clean but they couldn't catch him so it became a mission
3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even
4. Jealousy - they couldn't dope as well as him (The riders)
5. He constantly challenged them to catch him

Almost none of that....

There are plenty of other riders who were doping and very very difficult to beat. There was no extensive pursuit of them (Ulrich, Pantani, Riis, the list goes on and on). And not much was out of jealousy that they couldn't dope as well as him, as most of the people testifying against him were his own teammates.

Plain and simple, he was an asshole to a lot of people, and made enemies. I think he's changed in recent years, but during his career as a pro cyclist, he was an ass.

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [mck414] [ In reply to ]
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mck414 wrote:
And he was a world class asshole to anyone daring to question him about doping. I believe that alone contributed more to his fall from grace than the actual doping.

I raced SuperFrog in 2012 when LA was attempting his triathlon comeback. The race was less than a month from the release of USADA's reasoned decision. LA was treated like a god by the race organizers (got to park his RV in transition), athletes and spectators where tripping over themselves to be around him. After the race he gave a long impassioned speech about those who don't believe in miracles, yada, yada, yada. Anyone who has been paying attention leading up to USADA's report knew what was coming, it was was so eye opening to what another human being act to oblivious to the facts surrounding his own situation.

LA's absolute refusal to tell the truth in the face of overwhelming evidence he and his teams doped very much led to possible an over-aggressive prosecution. But, it's a bed of his own making.


Exactly the bold-faced lying when everyone who had been paying attention knew the score for the better part of a decade was unreal.

But what ultimately did him in was his treatment of Landis, and when he didn't lie down and take it and decided to rat him out, the dam broke.
Last edited by: ThisIsIt: Aug 8, 17 10:53
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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I've read some of the books and watched some of the documentaries. It seemed they wanted to get him for a few reasons:
1. He won a lot
2. Hardly anyone that is at that level is clean but they couldn't catch him so it became a mission
3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even
4. Jealousy - they couldn't dope as well as him (The riders)
5. He constantly challenged them to catch him

Lance was under suspicion for a number of reasons. He was the lead rider in a sport full of drug problems so that is the main one. However, there was also his close friendship with Michelle Ferrari, a many known for his knowledge on drugs. There were accusations by Floyd Landis which turned out to be true and a book called L.A Confidential that outlined a very detailed description of Lance's involvement with drugs.

Then you have the other stories of Lance being the ring leader in getting drugs (by using Motoman to deliver them to the team). There was his intimidation of teammates to take them, attempts to silence any other rider who tried to speak out against drugs. He spent years threatening lawsuits against anyone who raised the drug issue. He tried to destroy the career of David Walsh, the author of L.A Confidential.

He also hid behind his charity and his cancer, suggesting anyone who almost died from his disease would never risk his life for a bike race. He would deflect attention away from drugs on to his charitable deeds.

And despite all that and much, much more, people still say the only reason they went after Lance is because they were jealous...





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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
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3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even


They knew he was dirty because they were dirty and still couldn't beat him.

In a sense Lance won fair and square.

Well there was a sense that he went too far to the point of it being unseemly. As far as we know no one else had a whole team blood doping. And not everyone had access to blood doping which seems to be have been a prerequisite at the time for winning a grand tour.

So yes theoretically it was level playing field but practically it wasn't.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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You knew something was fishy when Hincapie was outclimbing the climbers...

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Humans are an irrational lot. We believe more in Christ figures than in reason. Lance was a loud mouth asshole and we as a nation love that. He did an amazing thing with cancer and that gave him the Jesus of assholes. America loves that more than anything. He broke the rules but the rules don't matter when the rule breaker makes us feel all goopy in our goopy pants area. That is why I say legalize doping. We want the performances and we aren't able to hold everyone to the same standards. Legalize and move on.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
You knew something was fishy when Hincapie was outclimbing the climbers...

After sitting on the front for hours day after day...

If I remember right there were times when Hincapie would finally pull off on the last climb and all that would be left were a few other Postal riders and about an equal number of the favorites with no team mates.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Love you man, but no.

Call me an optimist, but I think that anti-doping is getting better, and sport in general is getting cleaner than in the heyday of doping from the 80's through 2007. As I am sure you already know, pro cyclists stopped doping in 2007.

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Does anyone think that the fact that an American became the face of cycling in which has mostly been a European sport played a factor?
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [AndysStrongAle] [ In reply to ]
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nope. the "witch hunt" was led by Americans.

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [AndysStrongAle] [ In reply to ]
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AndysStrongAle wrote:
Does anyone think that the fact that an American became the face of cycling in which has mostly been a European sport played a factor?

No, Verbruggen protected Lance because the U.S. market was a huge untapped market for professional cycling.

It was the USADA that took down Armstrong not Europeans. And Armstrong would have likely been able to maintain the lying forever if it weren't for Landis ratting him out, another American.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Well optimist this realist says that advantages will always be seeked beyond the rules because it pays to. Look at Lance. He is laid bare as a cheater who acted like a mafia thug and the masses still jerk off to his image. It's a joke. This thread proves that the anti doping rules are just a mask we wear to not see our true selves. We want the winner. We want them to win bigger. We want the doper performances. Let's all come to terms with who are and legalize it.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
nope. the "witch hunt" was led by Americans.

Then I blame the NFL, MLB and NBA for "funding the witch hunt", they don't want cycling becoming the face of sports entertainment and stealing their revenue.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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<<He broke the rules but the rules don't matter when the rule breaker makes us feel all goopy in our goopy pants area>>

You can turn a phrase every now and again, I'll give you that...:)
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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A lot of response here, especially how he was a bad guy and all. But it really is simple, he pissed of Tygart and almost caused him to lose his job. So the one and single guy that had all the power to go after him no matter what, he pissed off to no end. So that "one" guy used his resources to get back at him, no matter what. And is still doing so today(at least all that he put in motion)

All the rest is just noise used to justify peoples positions, and those are all over the place..
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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very true.

he was an asshole to the wrong guy....

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [wimsey] [ In reply to ]
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I am a joy to behold.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [AndysStrongAle] [ In reply to ]
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Does anyone think that the fact that an American became the face of cycling in which has mostly been a European sport played a factor?

Lance was very popular in France.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
A lot of response here, especially how he was a bad guy and all. But it really is simple, he pissed of Tygart and almost caused him to lose his job. So the one and single guy that had all the power to go after him no matter what, he pissed off to no end. So that "one" guy used his resources to get back at him, no matter what. And is still doing so today(at least all that he put in motion)

All the rest is just noise used to justify peoples positions, and those are all over the place..

Time wise when was that relative to Landis?
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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"he was an asshole to the wrong guy.... "

That is one of the most shameful joys in my life. Watching a monster dominate a tiny world the the monster set up for him to be king of but steps out of the bounds find an enemy the monster's ego was blind to. Seen it many times. Always makes me laugh.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
For those of you that might be angry types by nature and see a dark cloud everywhere, I do not "troll", I do not deliberately try to stir up trouble. Ever. So pls can we skip that drama?

Well, this is not the worst forum to be asking.....
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
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3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even


They knew he was dirty because they were dirty and still couldn't beat him.

In a sense Lance won fair and square.

Damn how I hate the "they all were dirty" argument. It's so lazy.

Even if you concede that the majority were dirty, it doesn't mean that all were dirty. And there definitely were those who refused to dope and didn't make it. They're the true victims.

Lance is where is he because he's a fucking idiot. That, and his ego. He didn't have to come back after retirement. And he could have cooperated with the investigation, as opposed to his scorched earth approach. And he could have demanded a hearing and appealed. Either one of those approaches and he likely would have only received a two to four year suspension and would have been able to keep the majority of his tour wins.

That said, I find him somewhat sympathetic. The current action against him is a bit of a joke.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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I don't get it. You don't play by the rules, so you die by the rules.
It was a risk to cheat and he lost in the long run. Time to except the rule's punishment just like he excepted all the ill-gotten gains.

This is what happens when the powers that be, decide who is to be prosecuted vs who's not because of clout.
Justice should be blind. In this case Lance would've been popped in 2001 when he allegedly failed a test.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
2. Hardly anyone that is at that level is clean but they couldn't catch him so it became a mission

5. He constantly challenged them to catch him
There's something to these two arguments. USADA might have seen this as a challenge worth pursuing, and in the end, they were rewarded. We all enjoy success.

I also dislike it when anyone brings up the "they were all doping so it was a level playing field so it was OK for Armstrong to cheat". Given the money Armstrong (and his teams) had available for drugs and doctors (and the preferential treatment he received from the UCI) there was no way everyone could be on Armstrong's level when it came to cheating. It's one thing to be able to buy better equipment or time in a wind tunnel, but being able to spend more money on cheating simply makes you the best cheater.

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Alvin Tostig] [ In reply to ]
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I think it's fun that all his supporters are upset because Lance was came at too hard. Yes he was doping but the testers where just big o' jerks.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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AlanShearer wrote:
Duffy wrote:
Quote:
3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even


They knew he was dirty because they were dirty and still couldn't beat him.

In a sense Lance won fair and square.

Damn how I hate the "they all were dirty" argument. It's so lazy.

Even if you concede that the majority were dirty, it doesn't mean that all were dirty. And there definitely were those who refused to dope and didn't make it. They're the true victims.

Lance is where is he because he's a fucking idiot. That, and his ego. He didn't have to come back after retirement. And he could have cooperated with the investigation, as opposed to his scorched earth approach. And he could have demanded a hearing and appealed. Either one of those approaches and he likely would have only received a two to four year suspension and would have been able to keep the majority of his tour wins.

That said, I find him somewhat sympathetic. The current action against him is a bit of a joke.

I'm not arguing anything nor am I defending Lance.

But I heard somewhere that when Lance was winning you'd have go down to somewhere around 56th place to find the first clean rider. And I think much of the hatred of him (in the cycling world) was because he was beating a bunch of dopers while claiming (adamantly) to being clean.

That's all.

My opinion, when pressed, is that Lance is a dickhead.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Old Hickory] [ In reply to ]
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Old Hickory wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
For those of you that might be angry types by nature and see a dark cloud everywhere, I do not "troll", I do not deliberately try to stir up trouble. Ever. So pls can we skip that drama?


Well, this is not the worst forum to be asking.....

If he wanted more opinions (and a lot more vitriol) he'd have posted this in the tri-forum. They are a bit behind on their bi-annual Armstrong thread.

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Is it a witch hunt when the hunted is 100% guilty?
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
Is it a witch hunt when the hunted is 100% guilty?

I've recently heard that it is indeed.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
Well optimist this realist says that advantages will always be seeked beyond the rules because it pays to. Look at Lance. He is laid bare as a cheater who acted like a mafia thug and the masses still jerk off to his image. It's a joke. This thread proves that the anti doping rules are just a mask we wear to not see our true selves. We want the winner. We want them to win bigger. We want the doper performances. Let's all come to terms with who are and legalize it.


I agree with you and have been saying this for years since the Lance deal all broke loose with the proof he did it. Why not just let them dope? Who cares? I want to see guys ripping the legs off each other going up Alpe D"huez not limping along. I was a fan of Armstrong's riding and couldn't care less about Lance the person, the same way I feel about all pro athletes. Show me a great performance( I don't care if its drugged up or not) and I will tune in. show me a guy climbing the Alps barely making it up and doing what it looks like I could do on a Sunday ride and I'm not interested.

Same for American Football and other sport. Let them dope, do steroids and wow us with physical feats.. They are paid like gods so risking there lives for our enjoyment ( if the do it voluntarily) I have no problem with.

Dope Away...
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [ACE] [ In reply to ]
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ACE wrote:
Tibbsy wrote:
Well optimist this realist says that advantages will always be seeked beyond the rules because it pays to. Look at Lance. He is laid bare as a cheater who acted like a mafia thug and the masses still jerk off to his image. It's a joke. This thread proves that the anti doping rules are just a mask we wear to not see our true selves. We want the winner. We want them to win bigger. We want the doper performances. Let's all come to terms with who are and legalize it.



I agree with you and have been saying this for years since the Lance deal all broke loose with the proof he did it. Why not just let them dope? Who cares? I want to see guys ripping the legs off each other going up Alpe D"huez not limping along. I was a fan of Armstrong's riding and couldn't care less about Lance the person, the same way I feel about all pro athletes. Show me a great performance( I don't care if its drugged up or not) and I will tune in. show me a guy climbing the Alps barely making it up and doing what it looks like I could do on a Sunday ride and I'm not interested.

Same for American Football and other sport. Let them dope, do steroids and wow us with physical feats.. They are paid like gods so risking there lives for our enjoyment ( if the do it voluntarily) I have no problem with.

Dope Away...

I take it you don't have a kid competing in sports.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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getcereal wrote:
ACE wrote:
Tibbsy wrote:
Well optimist this realist says that advantages will always be seeked beyond the rules because it pays to. Look at Lance. He is laid bare as a cheater who acted like a mafia thug and the masses still jerk off to his image. It's a joke. This thread proves that the anti doping rules are just a mask we wear to not see our true selves. We want the winner. We want them to win bigger. We want the doper performances. Let's all come to terms with who are and legalize it.



I agree with you and have been saying this for years since the Lance deal all broke loose with the proof he did it. Why not just let them dope? Who cares? I want to see guys ripping the legs off each other going up Alpe D"huez not limping along. I was a fan of Armstrong's riding and couldn't care less about Lance the person, the same way I feel about all pro athletes. Show me a great performance( I don't care if its drugged up or not) and I will tune in. show me a guy climbing the Alps barely making it up and doing what it looks like I could do on a Sunday ride and I'm not interested.

Same for American Football and other sport. Let them dope, do steroids and wow us with physical feats.. They are paid like gods so risking there lives for our enjoyment ( if the do it voluntarily) I have no problem with.

Dope Away...


I take it you don't have a kid competing in sports.

Yes, multiple kids in sports but they are not worried about being pros and they don't idolize pro athletes. They see them for what they are, physical freaks and specimens that put on feats for our entertainment.

I don't think doping is that big in U6 soccer.

Let all pros dope in every sport and wow us!!!
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Not a good argument because of the horrible fact that life ain't fair. We can say what about the children all day but it doesn't take away from the fact that doping pays and always will.
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [ACE] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I am kinda weirded out. You are the first person to agree with me. Awesome.
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [H-] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The majority of the riders in the peloton appeared to be professional cyclists who chose to dope .... in order to advance their cycling careers. They didn't have a team of lawyers and public relations professionals telling them what to say. They didn't try to destroy their detractors. They took the cycling seriously but not the public relations.
"Hate the game not the player..."
They all seemed to say when they were caught.
We forgave them.

Lance on the other hand....

Lance said.....
"I am the game. And I am wonderful."

Lance's team of lawyers and public relations professionals - managed his entire approach to the matter. They claimed absolute innocence. Tried to destroy their detractors. Obscure the facts.
Even the charities, (in retrospect) appear to be part of an elaborate public relations plot.

In short - we hate Lance because he was
sooo much more full of sh#t than the rest of the Peloton.

Lance came off in the end as a professional doper, and self promoter ............
who was also into cycling.
Last edited by: Velocibuddha: Aug 8, 17 15:14
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Velocibuddha wrote:
The majority of the riders in the peloton appeared to be professional cyclists who chose to dope .... in order to advance their cycling careers. They didn't have a team of lawyers and public relations professionals telling them what to say. They didn't try to destroy their detractors. They took the cycling seriously but not the public relations.
"Hate the game not the player..."
They all seemed to say when they were caught.
We forgave them.

Lance on the other hand....
Lance said.....
"I am the game. And I am wonderful."

Lance's team of lawyers and public relations professionals - managed his entire approach to the matter. They claimed absolute innocence. Tried to destroy their detractors. Obscure the facts.
Even the charities, (in retrospect) appear to be part of an elaborate public relations plot.

In short - we hate Lance because he was
sooo much more full of sh#t than the rest of the Peloton.

Lance was a professional doper, and self promoter who was also into cycling.

I love it when the true haters come out. I always wonder, how did Armstrong's sins affect them so personally that they are SO ANGRY?

I have no problem with what happened to Armstrong. He doped (as did all others), won a lot and pissed off a lot of people. However, where I draw the line is the United States Justice Department suing him on behalf of USPS. Postal got their moneys worth out of Lance. They had to know there was a lot of doping in the sport during that time period, they took the risk. Our government need to get the hell out of the suit and move on.
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Alvin Tostig] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Alvin Tostig wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
2. Hardly anyone that is at that level is clean but they couldn't catch him so it became a mission

5. He constantly challenged them to catch him
There's something to these two arguments. USADA might have seen this as a challenge worth pursuing, and in the end, they were rewarded. We all enjoy success.

I also dislike it when anyone brings up the "they were all doping so it was a level playing field so it was OK for Armstrong to cheat". Given the money Armstrong (and his teams) had available for drugs and doctors (and the preferential treatment he received from the UCI) there was no way everyone could be on Armstrong's level when it came to cheating. It's one thing to be able to buy better equipment or time in a wind tunnel, but being able to spend more money on cheating simply makes you the best cheater.

It's unlikely that every team was on USPS' level of doping, but I'm betting that all of the top teams were, like CSC and Telekom and the rest of them. Everything I've read indicates that their budgets were at least as big as USPS. Teams like FDJ? Probably not so much, so agreed there. But, if you read Tyler Hamilton's book, it was Bjarne Riis that brought up blood doping to him, and it certainly read like it had been happening for a while. My guess that any team in the 90s and early 2000s that had legitimate tour contenders were probably on the same level of doping as USPS.

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [jwbeuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jwbeuk wrote:

I love it when the true haters come out. I always wonder, how did Armstrong's sins affect them so personally that they are SO ANGRY?
.


I never understand this line of reasoning either.

Lance was an a-hole and full of shit, and deserved every bit of what he got. Am I angry? No, I'm perfectly happy! I think it's the Lance fanbois who would be more angry?

I also don't understand the assertion that it must affect me personally in some way before I can express an opinion on the subject. Bernie Madoff is in prison. I'm all for it! Did what he did affect me personally? No. So what?
Last edited by: trail: Aug 8, 17 16:50
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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And Team Sky is different how?
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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AMEN! BLESS YOU! It is totally possible to call an asshole an asshole and agree with what happens to the asshole without being a slobbering hate filled hater. Lance is a piece of shit and got caught.
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I love it when the true haters come out. I always wonder, how did Armstrong's sins affect them so personally that they are SO ANGRY?


I never understand this line of reasoning either.


It's really odd but that is almost the identical argument he uses to defend Trump...
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Duffy wrote:
Quote:
3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even

They knew he was dirty because they were dirty and still couldn't beat him.

In a sense Lance won fair and square.

This.

He also went after anyone who dared challenge him and tried to destroy them while maintaining his clean image.

I'm actually glad the whole thing happened to the sport I loved because the whole thing was a sham just waiting to collapse.

Sadly I don't care about it anymore and just assume they are all riding dirty.
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Duffy wrote:
Quote:
3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even


They knew he was dirty because they were dirty and still couldn't beat him.

In a sense Lance won fair and square.
crucify me....I agree.
he did more for biking in the USA than anyone in my memory.
Lance got America to tune in the Tour. period. I wonder what the rating stats are.

sometimes
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [mustangchef] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
he did more for biking in the USA than anyone in my memory.

So?

When LeMond won participation in cycling in the U.S went up and when he left it went down. Then Lance came and participation went up a lot more and when he left it went back down again.

If participation in a sport depends on one rider riding in the TDF at one time, it's really just a temporary change. America has never been a big supporter of cycling and never will, they just aren't interested. In fact, it might be argued that Lance did more long-term damage to the sport because of his drug use.



Last edited by: Sanuk: Aug 8, 17 18:58
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [spot] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
spot wrote:
Alvin Tostig wrote:
I also dislike it when anyone brings up the "they were all doping so it was a level playing field so it was OK for Armstrong to cheat". Given the money Armstrong (and his teams) had available for drugs and doctors (and the preferential treatment he received from the UCI) there was no way everyone could be on Armstrong's level when it came to cheating. It's one thing to be able to buy better equipment or time in a wind tunnel, but being able to spend more money on cheating simply makes you the best cheater.


It's unlikely that every team was on USPS' level of doping, but I'm betting that all of the top teams were, like CSC and Telekom and the rest of them. Everything I've read indicates that their budgets were at least as big as USPS. Teams like FDJ? Probably not so much, so agreed there. But, if you read Tyler Hamilton's book, it was Bjarne Riis that brought up blood doping to him, and it certainly read like it had been happening for a while. My guess that any team in the 90s and early 2000s that had legitimate tour contenders were probably on the same level of doping as USPS.
No doubt some of the other teams (Telekom, ONCE, CSC) were at the level of USPS when it came to doping. The riders who weren't on those teams were screwed when it came to getting the maximum benefit from drugs and blood doping. Also, there might have been some riders (Ulrich, Pantani) who were spending as much of their own money as Armstrong was spending on doctors and dope. The riders who didn't have that kind of money to spend were out of luck.

But Armstrong appears to have been alone in the degree to which the UCI protected him. He could fail a drug test, make a "donation" to the UCI, and that was the end of it. I'm not aware of another rider who had the same level of collusion with the UCI.

Armstrong was the best cheat.

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bravo.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tibbsy wrote:
Not a good argument because of the horrible fact that life ain't fair. We can say what about the children all day but it doesn't take away from the fact that doping pays and always will.

I don't get your argument. Life isn't fair but doing things illegal pays off so screw the morality/illegality of it?

Reminds me of... 'Do on to others before they do on to you.' Lol Great philosophy!

I read Tyler Hamilton's book, he admits to everything but even with all his great accomplishments, money, wins a gold medal he lived years of guilt and depression. I don't see how that pays, I would prefer to be only good, making a descent living but guilt free and proud. I think someone like Lance has such a huge narcissistic personality and this worked for him to ward of any guilt or shame. Most people aren't wired that way.
Look what damage it did to the sport 10 years later everyone still believes all good riders are still on drugs.

I will meet you half way. If you want to dope, there should be a Jacked up division with leagues, teams, every athlete juice up all they want. But don't lie and hide it in sports that want to be clean and only bust the careless.

When I competed I liked the fact I was clean, not juiced up on a bunch of hormones or EPO and accomplished a lot. I didn't like people who cheated whether on drugs or cutting the course. When I found out Lance lied I was disappointed.

Watching sports. Top athletes are extremely impressive without all the drugs. I myself would prefer to watch a clean sport. But I could be in the minority.
Who can really tell the difference between the peloton averaging a mile per hour faster or not?
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If something is made legal it is no longer illegal. Follow? If doing something is legal there is no shame in it. Dig?
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tibbsy wrote:
If something is made legal it is no longer illegal. Follow? If doing something is legal there is no shame in it. Dig?

I follow, I guess it is all about entertainment. A lot of sports taking it to an extreme, are dangerous and can be brutally hard on you. Why try to stop the extreme? Bring on the Gladiators!!!


Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Why are his nipples aiming at the ground? What did the ground do to deserve that?

getcereal wrote:
Bring on the Gladiators!!!

Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I guess if you're trying to set an example that doping is not tolerated, the bigger the fish, the bigger the statement. In my limited knowledge of the history of cycling my perception is that he's the biggest name the sport has ever seen. This could be obvious (but again I don't know a lot about the others) but I'd say he's made significantly more money than any other athlete in the sport.

If you're in charge of cracking down on the cheats what better statement could there be than to catch the biggest name in the sport. Particularly as Monty said when that athlete is attacking you.

It's a bit of a tangent but I know I hate seeing the underworld figures in our local newspapers flouting their millionaire lifestyles because they have the wood over the police investigating them (or have them on the books!). There's something about people making extreme amounts of money in a dishonest way that rubs people up the wrong way. LA may have existed in an era when it was full of cheats, but as some have suggested perhaps it wasn't as level a playing field as others implied.

It's a shame, because it's nice for the everyday folk to have heroes. It brought a lot of attention to cancer. Though perhaps without the cheating cancer research would still be years behind where it is now?
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mv2005 wrote:
Though perhaps without the cheating cancer research would still be years behind where it is now?

The Livestrong Foundation never funded cancer research. It was more about cancer support - providing various resources for people with cancer other than medical treatment. I don't mean that as a pejorative - just clarifying.
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mv2005 wrote:
I It brought a lot of attention to cancer.


No it didn't

It was a brilliant marketing ploy to extend the reach of a foundation of any kind to to white wash his reputation and moneys.
Last edited by: windschatten: Aug 8, 17 23:34
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sanuk wrote:
he did more for biking in the USA than anyone in my memory.

So? so , at the time I felt safer on my bike. cause i felt people had more respect for us...cell phones have negated all that. text...Bam!

When LeMond won participation in cycling in the U.S went up and when he left it went down. Then Lance came and participation went up a lot more and when he left it went back down again.

If participation in a sport depends on one rider riding in the TDF at one time, it's really just a temporary change. America has never been a big supporter of cycling and never will, they just aren't interested. In fact, it might be argued that Lance did more long-term damage to the sport because of his drug use.



sometimes
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This was an interesting thread, thanks guys. I had no idea that LA treated so many folks poorly. I have strong feelings about that sort of thing.

I did think that it was cool the way cycling was on the American skyline during the LA years. I think that did us, American cycling enthusiasts, lasting good.

It's messed up that usps is suing LA. Imo, their team was the greatest marketing campaign ever. How many magazine covers were emblazoned with their logo?

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [ACE] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ACE wrote:
getcereal wrote:
ACE wrote:
Tibbsy wrote:
Well optimist this realist says that advantages will always be seeked beyond the rules because it pays to. Look at Lance. He is laid bare as a cheater who acted like a mafia thug and the masses still jerk off to his image. It's a joke. This thread proves that the anti doping rules are just a mask we wear to not see our true selves. We want the winner. We want them to win bigger. We want the doper performances. Let's all come to terms with who are and legalize it.



I agree with you and have been saying this for years since the Lance deal all broke loose with the proof he did it. Why not just let them dope? Who cares? I want to see guys ripping the legs off each other going up Alpe D"huez not limping along. I was a fan of Armstrong's riding and couldn't care less about Lance the person, the same way I feel about all pro athletes. Show me a great performance( I don't care if its drugged up or not) and I will tune in. show me a guy climbing the Alps barely making it up and doing what it looks like I could do on a Sunday ride and I'm not interested.

Same for American Football and other sport. Let them dope, do steroids and wow us with physical feats.. They are paid like gods so risking there lives for our enjoyment ( if the do it voluntarily) I have no problem with.

Dope Away...


I take it you don't have a kid competing in sports.

Yes, multiple kids in sports but they are not worried about being pros and they don't idolize pro athletes. They see them for what they are, physical freaks and specimens that put on feats for our entertainment.

I don't think doping is that big in U6 soccer.

Let all pros dope in every sport and wow us!!!

And what if your kids DID have the talent to potentially turn pro?
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes. If you said he wasn't clean not only would he deny he would do everything he could to destroy you. If you were on his team and said we all doped he would do the same

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If doping where legal and a kid has a shot at being pro it would be time for the big talk of, "Life ain't fair." You have to also look at the fact that even if doping remains illegal you dope illegally to keep up.
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
jwbeuk wrote:

I love it when the true haters come out. I always wonder, how did Armstrong's sins affect them so personally that they are SO ANGRY?
.


I never understand this line of reasoning either.

Lance was an a-hole and full of shit, and deserved every bit of what he got. Am I angry? No, I'm perfectly happy! I think it's the Lance fanbois who would be more angry?

I also don't understand the assertion that it must affect me personally in some way before I can express an opinion on the subject. Bernie Madoff is in prison. I'm all for it! Did what he did affect me personally? No. So what?

Then open your eyes and look around. The level of hate is pretty obvious unless, of course, you share the emotions then it's just opinion and commentary. Right.

I haven't seen a Bernie Madoff thread on the LR in a while. Lance? About every freaking 6 months. And it's become predictable.

Now, where is the Barry Bonds thread? I can get behind some hate there.
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Old Hickory] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This is a endurance site. So the idea of Lance being talked about more than Madoff or Bonds is not a mystery at all and not proof that Lance has packs of us out for his blood. What to hear more about Madoff? Go to a business forum. Want to hear more about Bonds? Go to a baseball forum.
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It's what we do.
Look at any how the media and people go after a prominent Pastor or politicial that proclaims they are a Christian if they are in any type of compromising position that someone else would get a pass on. Saying you are doing one thing, creating your image off that and making a huge sum of money based on outright lying, usually pisses people off.
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tibbsy wrote:
This is a endurance site. So the idea of Lance being talked about more than Madoff or Bonds is not a mystery at all and not proof that Lance has packs of us out for his blood. What to hear more about Madoff? Go to a business forum. Want to hear more about Bonds? Go to a baseball forum.
well put

sometimes
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
what ever happened to Jan?

sometimes
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [mustangchef] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mustangchef wrote:
what ever happened to Jan?

He was at the Tour this year when it was in Germany, although not at the invite of ASO.
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ThisIsIt wrote:
mustangchef wrote:
what ever happened to Jan?


He was at the Tour this year when it was in Germany, although not at the invite of ASO.
hah.

sometimes
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Velocibuddha wrote:
The majority of the riders in the peloton appeared to be professional cyclists who chose to dope .... in order to advance their cycling careers. They didn't have a team of lawyers and public relations professionals telling them what to say. They didn't try to destroy their detractors. They took the cycling seriously but not the public relations.
"Hate the game not the player..."
They all seemed to say when they were caught.
We forgave them.

Lance on the other hand....

Lance said.....
"I am the game. And I am wonderful."

Lance's team of lawyers and public relations professionals - managed his entire approach to the matter. They claimed absolute innocence. Tried to destroy their detractors. Obscure the facts.
Even the charities, (in retrospect) appear to be part of an elaborate public relations plot.

In short - we hate Lance because he was
sooo much more full of sh#t than the rest of the Peloton.

Lance came off in the end as a professional doper, and self promoter ............
who was also into cycling.

This captures it best; the example I like using is to point at Indurain, as the last rider before LA to enjoy a similar run of dominance w/ 5 straight wins... Nobody who's paid any attention thinks he was clean (pretty much everyone who stuck around from the old ONCE/Banesto regime has been eventually busted or at least implicated), and yet nobody is out calling for his ass, why? All he did was show up, ride (dirty), win, keep his mouth shut, and go home. Yes, the system was rigged, and he played along, but all the while he did as little as possible to put himself in the spotlight any more than necessary as the race leader and didn't go out of his way to piss anyone off. For that, he is still celebrated as a winner.

Even LA's homies on USPS/Disco like George and Levi get a similar pass ~ Sure, they were dirty too, but they were pretty much just going w/ the flow so nobody got a hard-on for singling them out. Lance, on the other hand, reveled in the spotlight and used its glare as a weapon to demean other riders and officials, and when anyone dared to question him, his response wasn't the kind of polite evasion you'd get from Hincapie but a doubled-down 'Fuck You' where'd he'd all but dare anyone to catch him. Funny thing, human nature ~ people don't appreciate being poked in the eye like that, so he made himself a bigger target. His fanboys keep saying he got singled out; well no shit, he singled himself out by design. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

I'd also point out that unlike all the other riders who were merely employees of their teams and had to face making a deal w/ the devil to keep/advance their job, Lance enjoyed vastly more pull as part owner of his team. So when we say the other domestiques are working for their team leader in the sporting sense, in Lance's case, they (and all the soigneurs, hell even Bruyneel) were also working for him in the literal sense for their actual paychecks. That's why I don't buy the argument that all the dopers should have gotten essentially equal punishment. That's like saying the FBI should treat the Mafia runner on the street corner just the same as the Don. In what bizarro world does that seem realistic?
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [ACE] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ACE wrote:
getcereal wrote:
ACE wrote:
Tibbsy wrote:
Well optimist this realist says that advantages will always be seeked beyond the rules because it pays to. Look at Lance. He is laid bare as a cheater who acted like a mafia thug and the masses still jerk off to his image. It's a joke. This thread proves that the anti doping rules are just a mask we wear to not see our true selves. We want the winner. We want them to win bigger. We want the doper performances. Let's all come to terms with who are and legalize it.


I agree with you and have been saying this for years since the Lance deal all broke loose with the proof he did it. Why not just let them dope? Who cares? I want to see guys ripping the legs off each other going up Alpe D"huez not limping along. I was a fan of Armstrong's riding and couldn't care less about Lance the person, the same way I feel about all pro athletes. Show me a great performance( I don't care if its drugged up or not) and I will tune in. show me a guy climbing the Alps barely making it up and doing what it looks like I could do on a Sunday ride and I'm not interested.

Same for American Football and other sport. Let them dope, do steroids and wow us with physical feats.. They are paid like gods so risking there lives for our enjoyment ( if the do it voluntarily) I have no problem with.

Dope Away...


I take it you don't have a kid competing in sports.


Yes, multiple kids in sports but they are not worried about being pros and they don't idolize pro athletes. They see them for what they are, physical freaks and specimens that put on feats for our entertainment.

I don't think doping is that big in U6 soccer.

Let all pros dope in every sport and wow us!!!

What about U12? U14? Keep lowering the bar for the pros, and it ripples down further into HS and even middle skool as well...
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sanuk wrote:
I love it when the true haters come out. I always wonder, how did Armstrong's sins affect them so personally that they are SO ANGRY?

I never understand this line of reasoning either.

It's really odd but that is almost the identical argument he uses to defend Trump...

Indeed, so very odd....
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The adult age in the US is 18. So there is your answer.
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sanuk wrote:
I love it when the true haters come out. I always wonder, how did Armstrong's sins affect them so personally that they are SO ANGRY?


I never understand this line of reasoning either.


It's really odd but that is almost the identical argument he uses to defend Trump...

Hey look, the Canuck was able to get a Trump reference into a post that had nothing to do with Trump. You may need another vacation to sex trade land, you seem to be losing it.
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [jwbeuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hey look! jwbeuk was able to respond to the a Trump jab. He is as much into Trump as the rest of us.
Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [jwbeuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You may need another vacation to sex trade land, you seem to be losing it.

Yeah because there is no sex trade where you live...

Quote Reply
Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sanuk wrote:
he did more for biking in the USA than anyone in my memory.

So?

When LeMond won participation in cycling in the U.S went up and when he left it went down. Then Lance came and participation went up a lot more and when he left it went back down again.

If participation in a sport depends on one rider riding in the TDF at one time, it's really just a temporary change. America has never been a big supporter of cycling and never will, they just aren't interested. In fact, it might be argued that Lance did more long-term damage to the sport because of his drug use.

Personally, as a cycling fan I can sorta abide the "everyone's doing it" blanket w/ regard to the doping issue and put it off to the side in a little mental box (unless it's a thread such as this where Lance himself is the specific topic of a deeper dive) ~ but regardless of the big kerfuffle over his doping and all-around dickishness and how those 2 things interplayed, my biggest disappointment is that by focusing exclusively on the Tour every year, he really did cycling in general a longer-term disservice. Sure, his success piqued interest here in the states which drove a lot of bike sales in the short run, but it was pretty much isolated to just him and LeTour and the eyeballs and sponsorships left along with him at the end. I saw it as a lost opportunity to spread that spotlightn further through the continent and racing season. I recall a time going back to Roche, Indurain, and even up to Pantani where the Tour and Giro were kind of 1A & 1B on the calendar; of course France still occupied center stage as the biggest of the big, but it wasn't the be-all end-all it became to the new wave of fans later in LA's reign. Eventually you got the sense from the domestic coverage here that if Lance wasn't in the race, it obviously was of no importance.

People would still say 'Hey, at least cycling coverage has increased overall' and that's true, but it was against the larger backdrop in that era of huge cable media expansion in general where you suddenly had 24/7 golf & food channels, too. Relative to that, I'd argue cycling coverage failed to keep up w/ the increased coverage of skateboarding and whatever else. Rock bottom for me was trying to watch coverage of Paris-Roubaix one year and they cut away from actual live racing to feature Lance back in his hotel room brushing his teeth and putting on deodorant before breakfast. Sorry, that's not 'cycling' coverage; might as well be 'Keeping Up w/ Lance Kardashian' FFS...
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
The adult age in the US is 18. So there is your answer.

Yeah, go ahead and get back to me when you have a kid approaching that age and let us know how well it goes holding that hard line
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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 I have a 24 year old daughter and a 22 year old son. I have done my best to help them make good decisions but sometimes they make good ones and sometimes they make bad ones. They are adults. So what if they chose to dope in professional sports? I would be disappointed because of the health risk but they are adults and make their decisions for themselves.

This what about the children argument is just so fucking tired. It has been used for everything for so long as to be meaningless. It's just funny to me that doping is illegal now and adults still do it while there are kids in sports. So are the kids doping to their gills now days? Do we have under six soccer teams on the juice. Doping is happening so by your logic every child is doping.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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I don't play the "what about the kids" card, but I do have friends who are current and former professional athletes. They aren't just a freakshow for our entertainment, IMO, and I wouldn't want them to be forced to take PED's in order to make a living.

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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It is their choice if they are going to be a freak show or not. No one is forcing them to dope and no one is forcing them to do sports for a living.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
It is their choice if they are going to be a freak show or not. No one is forcing them to dope and no one is forcing them to do sports for a living.

Well, one could say that about any job. I don't really care about that argument. I would rather that people have good working conditions regardless of their chosen career.

If we say "dope is legal" then that is in essence, forcing someone to dope if they want to pursue that career path.

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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It is already happening. There is already pressure to dope. To reach the top you dope. It is futile to put on your blinders and say, "Because I think it is wrong it is not happening. The rules say it won't happen so it isn't." Nothing gets better in the shadows. Bring it to the light. This will make for better health monitoring and safer practices. Again. What you are hoping to avoid is already happening.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Because there are rules, then there are limits to what can and cannot be done without getting caught.

make it legal, and people will push boundaries. yes, it is done now, but at a much smaller scale than it would be if it was permitted in sports.

remember the East German "women's" teams of the '70's? You don't see that anymore. Wanna bet what would happen if the floodgates were opened?

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
It is already happening. There is already pressure to dope. To reach the top you dope. It is futile to put on your blinders and say, "Because I think it is wrong it is not happening. The rules say it won't happen so it isn't." Nothing gets better in the shadows. Bring it to the light. This will make for better health monitoring and safer practices. Again. What you are hoping to avoid is already happening.

The same reason the war on drugs and gun control will never work.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Let the floodgates open. Truth is always better than lying. As far as there are rules, yeah change the rules.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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lets agree to disagree.

allowing unfettered doping would be beyond reckless, IMO...

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Keeping it in the dark kills athletes.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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FFS... well by that logic why even bother banning motors on bicycles then?
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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not having rules would kill more.

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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Because that argument is so stupid it broke my balls. Really? You going to stand by that?
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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If doping where allowed the athletes would have better access to care because they don't have to slink around and do shit in hotel rooms and deal with doctors who will break the law. If you dope in the light then you get better products and you have access to more information about them. If you are feeling pressured to go on things you feel would be dangerous to you can go to the press and complain about the dangers you are put under.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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but you are forgetting that they will still push boundaries. the doc says "this much" is safe, well, lets take just a little more. and the next guy says that they'll take a little more than that. so forth and so on....

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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And this isn't happening now? Also if legal an athlete can go to the press and say the team is endangering their lives. They will have a safety net and a place to insure their safety. Right now they don't have that.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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not to the extent that it would be if it were legal and everything was allowed.

You seriously think that young, invulerable athletes looking for an edge would go and say "hey, this is endangering our lives"?

Ok, suppose they do say "this is endangering our lives". What then? Say "too bad"? or prohibit certain practices and chemicals from use in training or competition?

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Certain practices might be deemed not legal because of the danger. Also there is a lot of power when someone says, "I will die." The teams will be looking to keep the people healthy and alive because your whole team dying not only looks bad but is incredibly expensive. Do you honestly think teams are going to spend a ton of money on someone to then jack him up until he dies? Bad business.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
Because that argument is so stupid it broke my balls. Really? You going to stand by that?

Hey, I think it's stupid too. Except it's simply a logical extension of:

Tibbsy wrote:
It is already happening. There is already pressure to dope. To reach the top you dope. It is futile to put on your blinders and say, "Because I think it is wrong it is not happening. The rules say it won't happen so it isn't." Nothing gets better in the shadows. Bring it to the light. This will make for better health monitoring and safer practices. Again. What you are hoping to avoid is already happening.

and

Tibbsy wrote:
Let the floodgates open. Truth is always better than lying. As far as there are rules, yeah change the rules.

...or are you not aware that 'mechanical doping' is already a thing as well...?

No less stupid than the "If we outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns" mantra... Sure there's some truth to it, but it's hardly an intelligent argument towards formulating any meaningful policy. Don't we still bar convicted felons from owning firearms? Why? They've already demonstrated contempt for the law before. I mean, people routinely run red lights all day, every day ~ why even bother having any traffic controls then? Let's just throw up our hands since we obviously will never completely eliminate cheating, right?

Of all the tired & weak arguments, surely "It's already happening anyway" has gotta rate at the top.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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We have motorcycle racing. If it is desired there will be electric bike races. These are mechanical which is different from human powered.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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There seem to be a lot of sports already that are willing to have no line in terms of the danger they will let competitors put themselves in. Take a look at some of the extreme sports, half-pipe snowboarding, etc. It's basically go higher and faster until you break your neck, which a lot of them do.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Dapper Dan] [ In reply to ]
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Yes.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
We have motorcycle racing. If it is desired there will be electric bike races. These are mechanical which is different from human powered.

And you're proving the point. We have races where people can use a motor legally, and yet there are still some who choose to cheat. By making it a free for all, you just end up eliminating the human powered races in favour of the motorized ones

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Except no. If we are going to play this dumb game then nothing means anything. We can take anything to an extreme. Anything. This line of argument is nonsense
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Basically, the only way your way "works", and I put "works" in air quotes for a reason, is to take it to the extreme and allow literally anything. Once you put in rules of any sort then people will find ways to break them.

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Ok. This is not a rational argument. This is you appealing to emotions to prove your point. You are bypassing my points and going straight to chaos. You have changed the field of play which bullshit. Gimme a minute to lost my points.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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- Bicycle racing is a human powered sport. This has been agreed upon since the beginning of the sport. Adding an engine makes a motorcycle and they already race those.

- The early history of the sport had cyclist using PEDs openly. They would tell the press what they took. It already has a history in the sport.

- Doping happens because people want the performances and stories. The performance boost from the drugs provides greater entertainment for the fans which drives sponsorship dollars. This increases the pay and fame of the riders encouraging doping. Non dope performances are boring and now one wants to see them.

- Because taking PEDs is against the rules it is done in the dark. The doctors have no ethics which means they are more likely to do things that endanger the athlete. Their desire not to be caught leads to risky behaviors that don't have to happen if it was done in the open.

- We want the performances. If you saw we don't you are wrong. Lance wouldn't be a god to many if he would have had a mediocre career after his cancer. He is loved because he won. Demanding the performances but making the athletes cheat to give them us is hypocrisy at the highest.
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