The RD decides what they want to do. Also the athlete. I remember seeing Jamie Whitmore at a race win OA Female and pulled herself out of the AG awards.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

It really varies race to race. I've had a race where I was 1st amateur OA, top Master & AG winner to boot--yes, they awarded me for all of them. I don't think it was necessary, as I just raced because I heard it was a well run race. I've had other races where I've won the race OA, but was taken out of AG awards. Personally, I never race for plaques, trophies or ribbons. I've raced for some "titles" before but would have been fine without the hardware. I think OA should be taken out of AG hardware awards to spread the love. Just my opinion.

No hard and fast rule, but it's traditional to remove the top3 OA (podium) from the AG awards. Same thing if they award top Masters.
The high-level concept is that no one gets multiple awards (spread the love)....and that OA placing > AG placing.

Many times I've "won" my AG only because the guy ahead of me placed OA. Likewise, I've placed OA and never felt slighted to get the 3rd place award vs. 1st in my AG*.






*Yes, there will be a lot of FDB on this thread.

---

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

I don't think I've ever done an event here in the Mid-Atlantic area (or otherwise.....mostly Florida) where an overall winner also gets an AG award.

Same.
I did one race, however, that I "won" because they gave the winner the masters award. I wish they hadn't done that. She was faster than me and should have been given the OA female award. I would proudly display an honest second place award, but I am embarrassed by that first place plaque.

I just learned today at Door County Half that USAT rules forbid anyone in an "Elite" (and presumably "Pro" wave is not eligible for Age group awards but anyone not in said waves is eligible for OA awards. Kind of makes you wonder why you would even enter the Elite wave except maybe to get a clearer course with the earlier start time.

I think it really depends... the races in my area pull you out of the AG pool if you win OA or Masters podium.

The Mid-Atlantic Championship for the Olympic distance didn't do that last year... If you were on OA podium, Masters, AG... you got a bunch of awards for each.

Did a race in North Carolina and you have to register for an "Elite group" to be in the OA/Masters podium.. I finished 3rd and just got an AG award.

Summary... it depends on the race.

Pretty much. However, at West Point you have to race "open" to win the overall. A few years ago a real stud showed up, crushed the field and won his age group and not overall. He won by a lot..... Really to bad for him (but cool for the other guy) as the overall award was a West Point Cadet Sabre and the age group was a mug if I recall. He came back the next year and won the sabre.

That seems backwards? It seems like they knocked her down a level. Between OA, Masters and AG I've only ever seen them ranked this way OA - Masters - AG. So if you placed overall you wouldn't be eligible for masters or AG. If you didn't place OA then you would place in masters and not AG.

---

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

Practices vary. I'd say leave them in, because nothing is more worthless than an illegitimate medal... I've numerous times just missed the AG podium, only to be moved into the medals because they took out guys in the top 3 overall... Unless the prizes are really cool, generally it's a crappy medal, that is even crappier because I didn't legitimately earn it... On the same token, at my last race, I completely missed collecting for my age group win (it was a crappy lanyard for my medal, so no big loss), because I assumed I had been removed after a 2nd overall placing and wandered off to the washrooms... They should at least announce their practices up front, so that athletes know whether and how long they should be sticking around for at awards...

yes, i agree its so insulting to get roll down award. if OA also won AG, they should either get the prize also, or it goes to no one.

I've never understood the roll down of AG awards after Overall is removed. Give them 2nd and 3rd place. But don't pretend that they won the AG

Trauma wrote:

Practices vary. I'd say leave them in, because nothing is more worthless than an illegitimate medal...

Well, I think all medals are worthless for the most part, so nothing different here. I already have too many medals and another one isn't going to be significant to me regardless. But at the same time,this is slowtwitch. I think the people who would really value a medal (even an "illegitimate" one) are going to be those people still new to the sport. As previously mentioned in this thread-- "spread the love"

Besides, no one makes you keep an "illegitimate" medal. Just toss it, or consider donating it through something like I Run 4 (IR4 - long term commitment) or Medals4Mettle (no commitment)

I would agree that most of the medals I have are useless (the only one I value in any way shape or form, and it still sits in the same shoe box with the others, is the one medal I earned at a National Championship).

It's not the keeping part for the illegitimate ones either, it's the being dragged up to the podium for them... I guess I should just ignore my name when it's called, rather than doing the podium walk of shame...

At my local races they award an OA podium. I was moved got moved from AG group winner to 3rd overall in a race last year. The guy who finished 3rd in AG ended up "winning" the age group because second place was awarded the Masters award.

My assessment is if you race AG you are not in the same race as the elite wave so you shouldn't be moved up to that category. The AG wave is not easier nor harder it is just different.

It was backward from what I have seen at other races, and like I said, I wish they hadn't done that. It was unfair to both of us. The race wasn't USAT, so they only had categories for male, female, masters for each, and relay. I did find her after the race when I realized that she had beaten me. Her masters award looked exactly like my OA award (they both just said first place), so we didn't switch.

Because generally if you're racing for OA you'll be in a separate wave, especially for Tris. So to make it fair and know who you are racing OA gets pulled out. Also at any race that has elite/pro they are racing as such so even though they may be 30 they aren't really racing in AG.

If it is a one wave race then it really doesn't matter which way they go, traditionally you can't double dips so they just keep going with that rule.

This does go both ways thought at some races. If you want to race for OA you have to start in the first wave so the leaders know there is someone else they are racing against.

I agree, though I've seen races without an OA/Elite wave that still pull OA out of the AG and then give the AG awards to "2nd" place

My experience has always been that there's Top 3 OA, and then everybody else gets whatever in their respective AG's.

At my local monthly tri club races, the top 3 OA are often all M50-54, so the "1st OA" in the M50-54 AG is really the 4th fastest guy in the AG.
But nobody actually cares all that much anyway - sometimes one of the other M50-54 guys will 'bitch' at one of the faster guys, if he does NOT place in the OA that race, as they get bumped down (or out) of the AG awards in that case.

---

float , hammer , and jog

My experience has always been that there's Top 3 OA, and then everybody else gets whatever in their respective AG's
---

I'm actually surprised that it's different for other people. This has always been the system for each and every race I've done.

---

---

---

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

I agree with this. In most races I do there is an elite race and an Age Group race. Elites usually self-identify and are allowed to go first into the water and they have their own race then the AG wave(s) follow. Two different races, so two different award structures. Although for smaller races it seems like overkill to have an overall podium of non-elite AG competitors. The AG podiums should be sufficient for the Age Group wave(s) in smaller races.

---

------------------
http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

As long as it is not an elite wave there seems to be no real consensus on this. I think if there is something more than a medal or award(like some cool swag) then the real winner ought to get whatever there is. If just awards, then roll them down and spread the wealth I guess, just an award that only the person and their family care about.

Just better not see in the paper some interview with the 2nd place person who got moved up to 1st saying that they won the race, that would be tacky.. I see it all the time though, people that win AG's and saying they won the race overall. Most lay people do not know any different, so kind of an after the race cheating..

That's always been kind of a joke when someone gets 5th in their AG and then tells the lay person that they got 5th.... with the lay person assuming 5th overall. But, to frame it as cheating is an interesting take and one I won't agree with, but I'd definitely like to hear more opinions on that. I mean, is placing in a race primarily an emotional reward/goal-achieved, and so by representing yourself in a way that falsely increases that emotional award.... then the person is thereby cheating? interesting.

---

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

some here are advocating "spread the love" by taking overall winners from the AG ranks. unless there are those AG-ers racing in Elite or Pro waves, i'd say to hell with that. are we talking in snowflake-ese here ? make as many people as possible feel good about themselves and their non-winning performances ?

let's go further and give everyone an award. a participation trophy, as it were.

me, i've never podium-ed, and likely won't until i hit the 80-85 AG..... , but if i did win my AG, i would want to know i won it outright, not because someone who beat me got another award instead. just my opinion.

Almost every race already does that, have you never gotten a finisher medal?


I agree with this fully. You are really devaluing the age group award if you remove the OA awardees from the AG. After racing the Door County 70.3 this weekend (it is a great race, btw) where there was an elite wave and the elite wave was removed from the AG results, I have decided I don't like the idea of an elite wave either. If you get first in your age group wave, but there were faster people in your age group racing in the elite wave, did you really get first in the AG? Door County did however let people double dip so to speak and you could win both an AG award and an overall award as long as you raced in the AG wave.

on this, i stand corrected - you got me there !!!! i suppose i would defend my comment by saying i meant that the 'participation award' was in the context of giving everyone something so they will not feel bad about not being the winner, but for some, being oh-so-close enough. the finisher's medals, to me, are just mementos of the event, not an award, per se. but, thanks for calling me out, i deserved that one !

I like elite waves and do not like AG's. If there's a person in the 25-29 AG and another person in the 35-39 AG who are similar ability levels, they should be racing head to head, in merit based categories like in cycling. This would also provide a path to racing semi pro and then pro vs the current system that's celebrates mediocrity. I don't like AG's or USAT rankings. It's all garbage in my opinion, as is faster swimmers having 2:30/100y swimmers seated in front of them. Let's get with it and have 5 merit based categories.

---

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Are the Houston Rockets considered the Western Conference champions because the Golden State Warriors were bumped up to NBA champions?
Are the Pittsburgh Steelers considered the AFC champions because the New England Patriots were bumped up to Super Bowl champions?

I think awards should be given that reflect what actually happened during the race, based on how you lined up at the starting line. If a race wants to avoid giving awards to the overall and AG to the same person, they should designate a separate elite or open division. If everyone lines up as an AG athlete, then they should be eligible for AG awards, and if the race also wants to give out overall, that too.

Haha, I couldn't help myself, it was all too timely. I just commented in another thread about how triathletes and their finisher medals are forbidden to complain about participation trophies, lol.

In any event, I get your point and largely agree with your sentiment concerning rolling down awards.

It's not really hard to follow. Most big races have an elite wave. If you are racing elite you don't qualify for Ag awards. In a lot of races Ag can't win overall either. It's not that they normally are pulled out they weren't supposed to be in AG awards in the first place. Since this was originally the norm in races, smaller races followed suit and say if you're in the top 3 you aren't considered in age group.

Age groups for racing until 35 -40 is a joke anyways. The problem isn't pulling people out for awards for overall. It's that we have a system that has age groups anyways.

I believe the rule is for AG awards, you must start in the exact same wave.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I agree with you. I think cycling has it right with categories, including forcing people to advance in the category system so someone cannot just sandbag in Cat 4 for years. My comment however was directed at the system where you have an elite wave but also have age groups. If you are gonna have age group awards, have everyone in the age group in the same wave and all eligible for the award. If you are gonna have a merit based category, have everyone in merit based categories and award categories. I would place a higher value on a third place age group medal when everyone in that age bracket was racing in the same wave and eligible for the award than I would on a first place medal when two people my age put up faster times but were ineligible because they raced in the elite wave. My point is taking people out of the age group that self-identify as "elite" devalues the age group award, similar to how removing the top 3 overall from age group awards and rolling the award down devalues the award.

I believe that is correct.

Who actually stays for awards? Been doing triathlons since 1985, unless it's money or a gift card I don't stay, anything else is just a dust collector, I mean really what do you do with the award, hang it somewhere so people will ask you about your race? My friends always stay the extra 1-2 hours waiting for awards so they can get their $5 award for their $100 + entry fee.

Because I don't see it changing, I support elite categories because they allow for actual racing, and that's why I show up, not for an award and not for USAT rankings. Heck, I'd opt for zero awards altogether to have more and better post race food, and a good race that removes the 1:30/100y swimmers from being seated ahead of faster swimmers who've put the time in to train to race. But forcing everyone to stay in their AG to have better AG awards punishes those who want a head to head race

---

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Yup, I think you make a good point and I get it. To that end however, I assume you want a head to head race so you can battle it out for the win. The Elite Wave followed by Age Group Waves combo still opens the elite wave racers up to being beaten by people in the AG waves who started 30 min behind removing some of that head to head competition. It is certainly not perfect, but perhaps the lesser of two evils. Its too bad all the mass start races seem to be phasing out.

Yep, and a cycling style category system would largely prevent that sandbagger from behind beating the self selected "elites" (open wave is a much better terminology). And yes, self seeded mass waves are sorely missed.

---

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram