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Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L)
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Question for those of you who swim in outdoor pools where thunderstorms roll through frequently in the warmer months: Are you routinely kicked out of the pool at the slightest rumble of thunder??? Three days in a row this has happened to me now; fortunately I have a nearby indoor pool with no windows which never closes for T&L, but I know some places in south Fla that only have outdoor pools, so I'm wondering how they deal with T&L. I know you can install lightning rods and ground the pool, but I'm not sure that these completely alleviate the potential of a lightning strike.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I work at a pool in Australia, if the thunder is within 30seconds of the lightning strike we kick everyone out.

That's the royal life saving guideline here, I'd assume you would have something similar. If we don't kick people out and someone gets bbq'd we face a jail sentence for negligence, so we are quick to kick people out.
Last edited by: TriguyBlue: Jun 15, 17 22:15
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I get kicked out of the indoor pool I go to.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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yep, roll with it. don't stress, stay flexible.

our LTF kicks everyone out of the outdoor and the indoor pool with thunder and lightning in the area. It can be sunny right above us but they keep an eye on the radar. Typical summer flash storm stuff.




"Outwork your talent." Kevin McHale
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [morpheus] [ In reply to ]
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It's interesting that they don't kick people out of the showers as well.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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In Montana I got kicked out of an indoor pool because of T & L...
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [TriStart] [ In reply to ]
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Im in south fl. Masters always gets shut down when lightning is near. My local LA fitness has an outdoor grounded pool. They nevet close for lightning.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
Question for those of you who swim in outdoor pools where thunderstorms roll through frequently in the warmer months: Are you routinely kicked out of the pool at the slightest rumble of thunder??? Three days in a row this has happened to me now; fortunately I have a nearby indoor pool with no windows which never closes for T&L, but I know some places in south Fla that only have outdoor pools, so I'm wondering how they deal with T&L. I know you can install lightning rods and ground the pool, but I'm not sure that these completely alleviate the potential of a lightning strike.

Our outdoor pool automatically closes for 30 minutes at any sign or sound of T&L, no matter how far away, and we have a 20 story building within 100 meters of the pool. Any additional sound or sighting resets the 30 minute clock. My pool as a youth had a 20 minute policy.

How long does your pool close for?
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Well, if you can hear the thunder, you can be struck by the lightning.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Our pool closes fro 30 minutes after each TorL. The indoor pool I know also closes for the same thing. These storms scattered across Florida are making it hard to swim. I haven't swam at all this week. I am hoping for tonight. We use to get more afternoon storms but they seem to be afternoon and evening this summer.

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Indoor pool (YMCA) shuts down 30 mins for thunder. Which usually turns into at least an hour because the HS kids they leave outside to watch magically hear another one or two as it's about to open.

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I live in Tampa, FL and swim outdoors year round. The two pools I use the most close for 20 mins whenever they hear Thunder. No need for lightning, thunder alone is good enough regardless if there is a cloud in the sky or not. If you don't swim first thing in the morning during the summer, then there is a good chance you will be hosed for the day. Teen lifeguards would rather be in the back office on social media so they will close the pool if they hear a pinecone drop. I would say that I agree with them about 60-70% of the time they make the call; but the rest are pure B.S. excuses to get out of work.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Every pool I've ever swam in, or my kids, has kicked everyone out for thunder except 1 pool. Personally I think it's ridiculous, along the lines of urban legend that an indoor pool can get hit by lightning. If you've ever seen what kids and parents do during a lightning evacuation (outdoor), it's way more dangerous: stand around the pool deck and chat.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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The pool I go to also has a play area for kids and a splash pad. We get kicked out as soon as thunder is heard. Or even if no thunder but very dark skies.

Like others said, I stay flexible and do something else. It's not gonna make or break my training.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [lordhong] [ In reply to ]
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It is my understanding that pools close because of all the plumbing connections in the ground handling all the water circulation, more than worry about a direct strike. But really, how in the world can anyone complain that people are trying to save your life? smh

I'm closer to the feathered end of the spear than the point.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [David_Tris] [ In reply to ]
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David_Tris wrote:
It is my understanding that pools close because of all the plumbing connections in the ground handling all the water circulation, more than worry about a direct strike. But really, how in the world can anyone complain that people are trying to save your life? smh

Pools plumbing should be grounded if it's a newer pool and up to code. But lets say that is the issue. Then why are the showers and bathrooms not cleared.

Outdoor pool I'm fine with the policy. Indoor pool it's pretty ridiculous.

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I used to work as a lifeguard in the biggest waterpark in Canada and we had to close the park for at least 30 min when lightning/thunder struck. You can imagine the clusterfuck! It's the guideline written in the lifeguarding books and it's all about safety to the users (and workers) and liability for those who own the pool/waterpark.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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any thunder closes outdoor and indoor pools for 30min..

I have never understood why indoor pools get closed since the risk is basically the same as for any building, and not increased by the presence of the pool.

However this sentence from lightningsafety.com explains,
" A Risk Management/Safety Professional will err on the side of caution every time and will be found harmless from allegations or claims of negligence. "
CYA is all it is.

so, I go swim by 11am each day this time of year..

"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [nbaffaro] [ In reply to ]
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Wtf... never seen that happen unless power goes out.

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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
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TriguyBlue wrote:
I work at a pool in Australia, if the thunder is within 30seconds of the lightning strike we kick everyone out.

That's the royal life saving guideline here, I'd assume you would have something similar. If we don't kick people out and someone gets bbq'd we face a jail sentence for negligence, so we are quick to kick people out.

What about when you hear T but do not see any L???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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nickwhite wrote:
Every pool I've ever swam in, or my kids, has kicked everyone out for thunder except 1 pool. Personally I think it's ridiculous, along the lines of urban legend that an indoor pool can get hit by lightning. If you've ever seen what kids and parents do during a lightning evacuation (outdoor), it's way more dangerous: stand around the pool deck and chat.

I think whether the indoor pool has any windows makes a difference, as these pools swear they've seen L strike through their windows. In the case of one of these pools, the guards have pointed out a crack in the wall near a window they say was caused by the the L. OTOH, at the other indoor pool with windows, there was no apparent damage from the L strike. Would there not be some damage from an actual L strike???

I have swum in several indoor pools, with zero windows, which never closed due to T&L. Right now, I swim at an outdoor pool on non-T days and at a never-close indoor pool on T-days.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [wetswimmer99] [ In reply to ]
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wetswimmer99 wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
Question for those of you who swim in outdoor pools where thunderstorms roll through frequently in the warmer months: Are you routinely kicked out of the pool at the slightest rumble of thunder??? Three days in a row this has happened to me now; fortunately I have a nearby indoor pool with no windows which never closes for T&L, but I know some places in south Fla that only have outdoor pools, so I'm wondering how they deal with T&L. I know you can install lightning rods and ground the pool, but I'm not sure that these completely alleviate the potential of a lightning strike.


Our outdoor pool automatically closes for 30 minutes at any sign or sound of T&L, no matter how far away, and we have a 20 story building within 100 meters of the pool. Any additional sound or sighting resets the 30 minute clock. My pool as a youth had a 20 minute policy.

How long does your pool close for?

My current outdoor pool has a 30-min policy but the outdoor pool i swam at last year had a 20-min policy, and of course any new T starts the timer over.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Couple years back a kid was killed here in Venice CA, summer storm lightning strike while he was in the ocean

Nothing to eff around with
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
It's interesting that they don't kick people out of the showers as well.

I wondered about that as well. And, what about people driving metallic cars in the rain with T&L??? Seems like they should shut the roads down too to provide max safety. And of course no biking and running outside during T&L.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.aquaticsintl.com/...-lightning-strikes_o

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisM wrote:
Couple years back a kid was killed here in Venice CA, summer storm lightning strike while he was in the ocean. Nothing to eff around with.

Sure it can happen but then again the odds are pretty low; acc to the National Weather Service, an average of 30 people per year were killed by L during the past 10 yrs (2007-'16) and they were not all in the water, e.g. the most recent (2017) death was a 30-something woman out riding her horse. OTOH, I guess you could argue that this number would be higher if not for the stringent pool safety regs.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
ChrisM wrote:
Couple years back a kid was killed here in Venice CA, summer storm lightning strike while he was in the ocean. Nothing to eff around with.


Sure it can happen but then again the odds are pretty low; acc to the National Weather Service, an average of 30 people per year were killed by L during the past 10 yrs (2007-'16) and they were not all in the water, e.g. the most recent (2017) death was a 30-something woman out riding her horse. OTOH, I guess you could argue that this number would be higher if not for the stringent pool safety regs.

Odds mean nothing if it's you

I swim in the Pacific, odds of a GW attack are very low. But they occur.

I suppose the takeaway is that if you are on someone else's property, gotta play by their rules. Build your own pool you can swim as long as you like :)
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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Leddy - Thanks for that reference. Apparently, there is a lot of confusion over closure or non-closure of indoor pools during T&L. Interesting that there appear to be many more documented cases of electrocution in showers than in indoor pools; I wrote "many more" since the indoor pool number is zero. :)

In summary, it appears that evacuation of outdoor pools, and outdoor water bodies, is fully warranted but not indoor pools.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [Dirt fighter] [ In reply to ]
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Dirt fighter wrote:
I'm in south fl. Masters always gets shut down when lightning is near. My local LA fitness has an outdoor grounded pool. They never close for lightning.

So what do the elite USA Swimming teams do in South Fla??? Do they start in the outdoor pool then move inside when/if the T comes??? I can't imagine elite teams allowing many of their practices to be canceled or shortened due to the weather.

Also, I just noticed that you said that your LA Fitness pool is grounded and outdoors and never closes due to T&L. You are the only poster so far to report an outdoor pool not closing due to T&L, very interesting. So apparently an outdoor pool can operate during T&L if properly grounded.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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How do you ground the pool water when someone's half in/out and lightning runs across the surface?

The sound pressure waves would likely deafen anyone in the pool, also.

I'm no electrician.........or meteorologist (but, I am a risk manager).
Last edited by: nc452010: Jun 16, 17 10:51
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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nc452010 wrote:
How do you ground the pool water when someone's half in/out and lightning runs across the surface? I'm no electrician.........or meteorologist (but, I am a risk manager).

OK, good point. Apparently, the LA Fitness pool that dirt fighter mentioned has decided its grounded outdoor pool is safe enough that they do no close it due to T&L. I would ass-u-me that they had some sort of risk evaluation???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I know the outdoor pool where I live does. I do not get to swim there due to hours, but know people that work there.

Also the indoor pool I swim at has a regulation that it be closed for 30min after, so both indoor and outdoor pools, run by different organization have the 30min after policy.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Obviously safety comes first. But yeah, I have seen a couple of lifeguards say "was that lightening?" blow the whistle, head to McDonald's and reopen when they get back.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I swim outdoor masters in South Florida. Storms usually hit in the early afternoon during the summer so the earlier you can get into the pool , the more likely you are to swim. If practice gets cancelled, don't get all worked up about it. Northerners may get to swim without issue. But, we get to bike outside in shorts all year long. It's a trade-off and your A race isn't going to go poorly just because you have to miss a few practices.

Side note: yes, all elite teams get out when it storms and the pool deck gets cleared. They usually have to do dry-land until it's clear again or watch swimming videos.
Last edited by: swimswam1003: Jun 16, 17 11:43
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas wrote:
Obviously safety comes first. But yeah, I have seen a couple of lifeguards say "was that lightening?" blow the whistle, head to McDonald's and reopen when they get back.

What about elite teams that swim outside??? Auburn and U. of Fla are both in a very T&L-prone area; actually, most SEC teams are just b/c they are in the southeast, duh.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [swimswam1003] [ In reply to ]
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swimswam1003 wrote:
I swim outdoor masters in South Florida. Storms usually hit in the early afternoon during the summer so the earlier you can get into the pool , the more likely you are to swim. If practice gets canceled, don't get all worked up about it. Northerners may get to swim without issue. But, we get to bike outside in shorts all year long. It's a trade-off and your A race isn't going to go poorly just because you have to miss a few practices.
Side note: yes, all elite teams get out when it storms and the pool deck gets cleared. They usually have to do dry-land until it's clear again or watch swimming videos.

I'm not "all worked up about it" but rather simply started this post to see what info I could get from other swimmers about this issue, since it comes up every summer, and indeed much valuable info has come to light. Apparently, some properly grounded outdoor pools do NOT close due to T&L, as noted by dirt fighter above. And, apparently it may not be necessary to close properly grounded indoor pools either, as noted in Leddy's reference above.

Thanks for the side note on the elite teams; i would think they would move into an indoor pool if they had access to one, but then they may not have sufficient lanes in the indoor pool, or even have an indoor pool. Anyway, thanks for your input.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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The elite teams don't move to indoor pools because they don't have them. In south Florida, the only indoor pools that exist are at LA Fitness. All the colleges and city pools have outdoor only.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [swimswam1003] [ In reply to ]
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swimswam1003 wrote:
The elite teams don't move to indoor pools because they don't have them. In south Florida, the only indoor pools that exist are at LA Fitness. All the colleges and city pools have outdoor only.

OK, in that case, why are these pools not properly grounded, since *apparently*, this will take care of the lightning. Or at least the grounded outdoor pool cited by dirt fighter does not close due to T&L. I guess what we need is a *REAL* authority on lightning protection. I understand that a proper grounding set-up costs money but grounding is not all that expensive and, given the prevalence of T&L in places like south Fla, I would *think* it would be a worthwhile investment.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
TriguyBlue wrote:
I work at a pool in Australia, if the thunder is within 30seconds of the lightning strike we kick everyone out.

That's the royal life saving guideline here, I'd assume you would have something similar. If we don't kick people out and someone gets bbq'd we face a jail sentence for negligence, so we are quick to kick people out.

What about when you hear T but do not see any L???

It just depends how close it is.
We don't close the indoor pool though, it's a completely separate body of water to the outdoor pool.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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For starters...nobody cares about swimming. The cities will only invest money in things that draw tourists. 99.99% of tourists do not come to South Florida to swim in an outdoor competition pool. The Ft. lauderdale Aquatic Complex (attached to swimming hall of fame) was where Phelps and Nathalie Coughlin set a bunch of records and it has been deteriorating ever since. It has been a nonstop dispute for several years with the city to put money into fixing it. Originally they were going to build a new complex. Then they decided just to tear the pools down to do something more profitable with the land. Then, after about a million meetings, they compromised and agreed to make minor improvements (like resurfacing the bottoms so they no longer leak).
So, to answer your question, it's not worth the investment. Not for those that actually own the pools.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
jaretj wrote:
It's interesting that they don't kick people out of the showers as well.


I wondered about that as well. And, what about people driving metallic cars in the rain with T&L??? Seems like they should shut the roads down too to provide max safety. And of course no biking and running outside during T&L.
There, I fixed it.

You do understand what electrical "grounding" is, and how it works, right?

ETA: so, if not apparent, most enclosed motor vehicles are rolling Faraday Cages.

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Last edited by: philly1x: Jun 16, 17 12:39
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [Dirt fighter] [ In reply to ]
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Dirt fighter wrote:
Im in south fl. Masters always gets shut down when lightning is near. My local LA fitness has an outdoor grounded pool. They nevet close for lightning.

Not challenging you just curious as i am an idiot when it comes to electricity, but AFAIK modern codes are going to require outdoor pools to be grounded with all of the equipment in there. Is that what you are referring to? And a grounded pool would completely protect a swimmer from a direct lightning strike onto the water?

Did a bit of googling but nothing came up that answers that (other than codes require grounding)
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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Leddy wrote:
http://www.aquaticsintl.com/...-lightning-strikes_o[/url][/quote]



I took this article to my swim facility several years ago when the pool had been closed during my morning swim three times in one week. They looked at it and essentially said that they didn't care, the pool was going to be closed if there was lightning or thunder. I tried persisting but eventually was stonewalled by bureaucracy and just gave up.

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Last edited by: wannabefaster: Jun 16, 17 13:29
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [wannabefaster] [ In reply to ]
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wannabefaster wrote:
Leddy wrote:
http://www.aquaticsintl.com/...-lightning-strikes_o[/url]




I took this article to my swim facility several years ago when the pool had been closed during my morning swim three times in one week. They looked at it and essentially said that they didn't care, the pool was going to be closed if there was lightning or thunder. I tried persisting but eventually was stonewalled by bureaucracy and just gave up.[/quote]


That was my outcome. I argued that if that's their stance shut down showers and gym for that matter. Someone has a better shot of being electrocuted on treadmill in a building
Strike. Fight crazy with crazy didn't work either. As someone mentioned earlier. No one cares about swimming.

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
Last edited by: Leddy: Jun 16, 17 14:20
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisM wrote:
Dirt fighter wrote:
Im in south fl. Masters always gets shut down when lightning is near. My local LA fitness has an outdoor grounded pool. They nevet close for lightning.

Not challenging you just curious as i am an idiot when it comes to electricity, but AFAIK modern codes are going to require outdoor pools to be grounded with all of the equipment in there. Is that what you are referring to? And a grounded pool would completely protect a swimmer from a direct lightning strike onto the water?

Did a bit of googling but nothing came up that answers that (other than codes require grounding)

Honesty I haven't a clue. One day masters was cancelled so I called my gym and asked if there pool was open and they said "yes our pool is grounded it's always open" for all I know it may not mean shit.
But it's literally the only place I can swim in the afternoons here except for my own 25 footer.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [Dirt fighter] [ In reply to ]
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Dirt fighter wrote:
ChrisM wrote:
Dirt fighter wrote:
Im in south fl. Masters always gets shut down when lightning is near. My local LA Fitness has an outdoor grounded pool. They never close for lightning.


Not challenging you just curious as i am an idiot when it comes to electricity, but AFAIK modern codes are going to require outdoor pools to be grounded with all of the equipment in there. Is that what you are referring to? And a grounded pool would completely protect a swimmer from a direct lightning strike onto the water?

Did a bit of googling but nothing came up that answers that (other than codes require grounding)

Honesty I haven't a clue. One day masters was canceled so I called my gym and asked if there pool was open and they said "yes our pool is grounded it's always open" for all I know it may not mean shit.
But it's literally the only place I can swim in the afternoons here except for my own 25 footer.

And your LA Fitness pool is an outdoor pool??? Just double-checking. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [philly1x] [ In reply to ]
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philly1x wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
jaretj wrote:
It's interesting that they don't kick people out of the showers as well.


I wondered about that as well. And, what about people driving metallic cars in the rain with T&L??? Seems like they should shut the roads down too to provide max safety. And of course no biking and running outside during T&L.

There, I fixed it.

You do understand what electrical "grounding" is, and how it works, right?

ETA: so, if not apparent, most enclosed motor vehicles are rolling Faraday Cages.

Ya, after thinking about it a bit more, I realized that cars are fairly safe, although I had forgotten about the "Faraday Cage" concept. Grounding is a bit complex though, in terms of how big the grounding array needs to be, the wetness of the soil, etc. When I was on USAF duty in AFG in 2009-10, we installed a large grounding array for a helicopter simulation training facility, and I remember the electrical engineer saying we needed to wet the very dry AFG soil to get good conductivity. I've forgotten whether he specified periodic re-wetting of the buried array, which I think would prob dry out eventually. I'm a chemical/envir engineer by background, so please forgive my lack of great electrical knowledge, which is why I posted this thread to start with, to get the best electrical engr minds of ST to weigh in. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
Dirt fighter wrote:
ChrisM wrote:
Dirt fighter wrote:
Im in south fl. Masters always gets shut down when lightning is near. My local LA Fitness has an outdoor grounded pool. They never close for lightning.


Not challenging you just curious as i am an idiot when it comes to electricity, but AFAIK modern codes are going to require outdoor pools to be grounded with all of the equipment in there. Is that what you are referring to? And a grounded pool would completely protect a swimmer from a direct lightning strike onto the water?

Did a bit of googling but nothing came up that answers that (other than codes require grounding)

Honesty I haven't a clue. One day masters was canceled so I called my gym and asked if there pool was open and they said "yes our pool is grounded it's always open" for all I know it may not mean shit.
But it's literally the only place I can swim in the afternoons here except for my own 25 footer.

And your LA Fitness pool is an outdoor pool??? Just double-checking. :)
Yep .. outdoor pool
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Im sure the elite teams swim early. Storms here usually develop inland around noon and move to the coast where they blow up and become heavy lightning storms then peter out just in time for sunset.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [Dirt fighter] [ In reply to ]
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Dirt fighter wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
Dirt fighter wrote:
ChrisM wrote:
Dirt fighter wrote:
Im in south fl. Masters always gets shut down when lightning is near. My local LA Fitness has an outdoor grounded pool. They never close for lightning.


Not challenging you just curious as i am an idiot when it comes to electricity, but AFAIK modern codes are going to require outdoor pools to be grounded with all of the equipment in there. Is that what you are referring to? And a grounded pool would completely protect a swimmer from a direct lightning strike onto the water?

Did a bit of googling but nothing came up that answers that (other than codes require grounding)

Honesty I haven't a clue. One day masters was canceled so I called my gym and asked if there pool was open and they said "yes our pool is grounded it's always open" for all I know it may not mean shit.
But it's literally the only place I can swim in the afternoons here except for my own 25 footer.


And your LA Fitness (LAF) pool is an outdoor pool??? Just double-checking. :)


Yep .. outdoor pool

OK, thanks!!! Very interesting, your LAF pool is definitely bucking the trend.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [Dirt fighter] [ In reply to ]
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Dirt fighter wrote:
Im sure the elite teams swim early. Storms here usually develop inland around noon and move to the coast where they blow up and become heavy lightning storms then peter out just in time for sunset.

Right, I'm sure they train 5 am to 7.30-ish in the mornings but often they will have afternoon workouts also, somewhere around 3 pm to 6-ish. Many elite groups require swimmers to do at least 9 workouts/wk, preferably 10-11, but the swimmer is allowed to pick which 10 workouts to do out of 12 workouts offered, e.g. 2 per day Mon - Sat. The afternoon workouts are obv the ones most likely to be knocked out by the T&L, which is why I asked about these elite teams. Just to continue in this vein, I know of 2-3 college teams that offer 25 workouts/wk, 4 a day Mon-Fri, and 2 on Sat. The 4 weekday workouts are 6-8 am, 12-2 pm, 4-6 pm, and 8-10 pm. In this manner, swimmers have much more flex in when they swim and can get their 10 workouts/wk in along with all of their classes, labs, etc.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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nc452010 wrote:
How do you ground the pool water when someone's half in/out and lightning runs across the surface?

The sound pressure waves would likely deafen anyone in the pool, also.

I'm no electrician.........or meteorologist (but, I am a risk manager).

I would never swim in an outdoor pool during a lightening storm - even if it claimed to be grounded. Lightening is no joke, and I really don't think there is sufficient grounding that would ensure I don't get zapped while in the water.

I have seen someone get zapped on basically a clear day with thunder in the distance (they lived).

I worked with a guy who was sitting in his basement across the room from an open window. The lighting came in the window and hit him (he lived).

I met a guy who was back country camping in a tent, something close to him got hit and the metal poles singed so badly they burn holes in the tent (I saw the tent).

Got caught in the very middle of a massive lighting storm in an open boat 40 minutes from shore. Lightening went off like constant flashbulbs for about 15 minutes all around us. Smelt like sulphur the whole time, you would start to hear the crackle of lightening and before it could finish the flash would go off, seemed like about one every five seconds or so - no delay between the thunder and the lightening, basically the thunder just constantly rolled and the lightening constantly flashed. Had a few strikes seemed like they were less than ten feet away - really loud, but not deafening. I was pretty glad to get off the water that day, but I will say it really focusses the mind navigating a difficult channel in blinding rain while trying to get out from under a potential deadly storm, so that was interesting.

My opposite SAR crew picked up a guy who got hit in his boat on open water and died.

After all of that, I don't take any chances with lightening it can be deadly, and unexpected.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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Back in the heydays of Triathlon, I once raced an Oympic in severe T&L with torrential rain.

Yep, swimming with lightning moving in and had a L- strike quite close when riding through an alley of trees....deafening....

One of the most exhilarating races in my life.

Nobody got killed that day.



The Guardian wrote:
nc452010 wrote:
How do you ground the pool water when someone's half in/out and lightning runs across the surface?

The sound pressure waves would likely deafen anyone in the pool, also.

I'm no electrician.........or meteorologist (but, I am a risk manager).


I would never swim in an outdoor pool during a lightening storm - even if it claimed to be grounded. Lightening is no joke, and I really don't think there is sufficient grounding that would ensure I don't get zapped while in the water.

I have seen someone get zapped on basically a clear day with thunder in the distance (they lived).

I worked with a guy who was sitting in his basement across the room from an open window. The lighting came in the window and hit him (he lived).

I met a guy who was back country camping in a tent, something close to him got hit and the metal poles singed so badly they burn holes in the tent (I saw the tent).

Got caught in the very middle of a massive lighting storm in an open boat 40 minutes from shore. Lightening went off like constant flashbulbs for about 15 minutes all around us. Smelt like sulphur the whole time, you would start to hear the crackle of lightening and before it could finish the flash would go off, seemed like about one every five seconds or so - no delay between the thunder and the lightening, basically the thunder just constantly rolled and the lightening constantly flashed. Had a few strikes seemed like they were less than ten feet away - really loud, but not deafening. I was pretty glad to get off the water that day, but I will say it really focusses the mind navigating a difficult channel in blinding rain while trying to get out from under a potential deadly storm, so that was interesting.

My opposite SAR crew picked up a guy who got hit in his boat on open water and died.

After all of that, I don't take any chances with lightening it can be deadly, and unexpected.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The Guardian wrote:
nc452010 wrote:
How do you ground the pool water when someone's half in/out and lightning runs across the surface?

The sound pressure waves would likely deafen anyone in the pool, also.

I'm no electrician.........or meteorologist (but, I am a risk manager).

I would never swim in an outdoor pool during a lightening storm - even if it claimed to be grounded. Lightening is no joke, and I really don't think there is sufficient grounding that would ensure I don't get zapped while in the water.

I have seen someone get zapped on basically a clear day with thunder in the distance (they lived).

I worked with a guy who was sitting in his basement across the room from an open window. The lighting came in the window and hit him (he lived).

I met a guy who was back country camping in a tent, something close to him got hit and the metal poles singed so badly they burn holes in the tent (I saw the tent).

Got caught in the very middle of a massive lighting storm in an open boat 40 minutes from shore. Lightening went off like constant flashbulbs for about 15 minutes all around us. Smelt like sulphur the whole time, you would start to hear the crackle of lightening and before it could finish the flash would go off, seemed like about one every five seconds or so - no delay between the thunder and the lightening, basically the thunder just constantly rolled and the lightening constantly flashed. Had a few strikes seemed like they were less than ten feet away - really loud, but not deafening. I was pretty glad to get off the water that day, but I will say it really focusses the mind navigating a difficult channel in blinding rain while trying to get out from under a potential deadly storm, so that was interesting.

My opposite SAR crew picked up a guy who got hit in his boat on open water and died.

After all of that, I don't take any chances with lightening it can be deadly, and unexpected.
Sounds like you where definatly in a typical south fl summer storm . The lightning is rediculous for sure. I guess thats why they call this area the lightning capitol. I should probably respect it more than I do. Ive had many close calls when I worked on the water. Now my job consists of being on roofs waving a metal wand that shoots water while being soaked lol. I was at a local mx race a couple years ago , I was in the tower watching my son do a perade lap with the other riders before the first moto. There was a storm moving in quick. Next thing I know I here probably the loudest crack of thunder Ive ever heard. Then I noticed the guy about 10 bikes in front of my son was struck. I checked out his bike after the ambulance hauled him away. The aluminum brake perch and lever were welded together. The guy recovered but he permanently f'd up.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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Remind me to never stand near you in a lightening storm

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [Dirt fighter] [ In reply to ]
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Dirt fighter wrote:

Honesty I haven't a clue. One day masters was cancelled so I called my gym and asked if there pool was open and they said "yes our pool is grounded it's always open" for all I know it may not mean shit.
But it's literally the only place I can swim in the afternoons here except for my own 25 footer.

Any chance you could check with LA again? I'm curious if the person assumed you were asking about the indoor pool? It's hard to believe that the outdoor pool would stay open. I'm basing this off their reply of its grounded. That sounds like what they would say for indoor.

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
Last edited by: Leddy: Jun 17, 17 5:48
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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Leddy wrote:
Indoor pool (YMCA) shuts down 30 mins for thunder. Which usually turns into at least an hour because the HS kids they leave outside to watch magically hear another one or two as it's about to open.


YMCA says showers and pool should be evacuated. My YMCA closes the pool, not showers.

http://www.lightningsafety.com/...ol_closing_guide.pdf
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [schroeder] [ In reply to ]
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schroeder wrote:
Leddy wrote:
Indoor pool (YMCA) shuts down 30 mins for thunder. Which usually turns into at least an hour because the HS kids they leave outside to watch magically hear another one or two as it's about to open.


YMCA says showers and pool should be evacuated. My YMCA closes the pool, not showers.

http://www.lightningsafety.com/...ol_closing_guide.pdf

Goes hand in hand with they don't care about making swimmers mad but dont want to piss off general membership.

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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For a long time I've been aggravated by being kicked out of pools when there were reports of lightning many dozen miles away. I'm an engineer and spent time as an electronic tech so I'm pretty good on electricity. I went poking around the issue and couldn't come up with a reason why we'd be in more peril in the pool then say, walking out to our cars in the parking lot having been just kicked out of the pool. This was in the '90's so not much info on the web. I tried and tried to reason with lifeguards and pool management, but they were either min. wage lackies or bureaucrats and I got no where.

Around 2005 tho, I went after the issue again. This time info was starting to appear on the web. To include....apparently there has never been a confirmed case of someone getting struck by lighting in an indoor or outdoor pool in the US. Never, at least that was apparently the truth back then. With the bit in my teeth, I contacted one of my physics profs from the mid 80's to get his take on it. I was able to track him down only because he became a sci fi author. He agreed that being in a pool didn't make one especially vulnerable. Armed with those emails and a handful of other printouts, I went to my pool in 2014. They were very cool about it and allowed me to see the text of their insurance on this specific issue. Ultimately they agreed to no longer close the indoor pool unless the storm was "really bad". I couldn't get them to budge on the outdoor pool.

There's a bunch of variables, many very hard to predict, that determine the precise location of a lightning strike. First tho, the cloud's above are charged and therefore attract the opposite charge. That attraction causes invisible "streamers" to go up Earth preferentially up from things that are grounded. A streamer meets a counterpart coming down, and the lightning we see blasts thru that path.

It's invisible, then the strike goes down. I'm pulling this out of distant recall so there's sure to be some errors.

Unlike what we see on TV, water is a crappy conductor. It's the impurities in water that make it a pretty good conductor, salts being a fine way to make water conduct. So pool water is a reasonable insulator. Unlike pool water, you are pretty salty so being immersed in an insulator is not a bad place to be. Grounding the pool doesn't do any good because a) Grounding something attracts lightning. Remember the source of the streamers going up. So grounding the pool would simply attract the water to where you are. 2) The pool water is an insulator. The smart thing to do would be to avoid grounding the pool, use plastic pipes or something, and therefore make the water an even better insulator.

When folks ground a building in order to protect it from lightning, the aren't "preventing" lightning strikes, they are "guiding" the lightning strikes. You put a big piece of steel on top of a building, then connect large electrical conductors over the roof, down the sides of the building, and then into deep stakes into the ground. That gives the lightning energy a nice conductive path on the outside of the building. Sure, it also attracts lighting, but that's unavoidable. So the way to ground a pool is to put a big piece of steel way above it, then connect big conductors from it to the ground, all well away from anywhere people hang out. Of course, this would also attract lightning to the pool.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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Leddy wrote:
Dirt fighter wrote:

Honesty I haven't a clue. One day masters was cancelled so I called my gym and asked if there pool was open and they said "yes our pool is grounded it's always open" for all I know it may not mean shit.
But it's literally the only place I can swim in the afternoons here except for my own 25 footer.

Any chance you could check with LA again? I'm curious if the person assumed you were asking about the indoor pool? It's hard to believe that the outdoor pool would stay open. I'm basing this off their reply of its grounded. That sounds like what they would say for indoor.
This location only has an outdoor pool but I'll ask again tomorrow.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Ranger, thanks for weighing in here!!! You are exactly the resource I was looking for when I posted this thread. A couple of thoughts based on your exposition:

1. Several posts above ChrisM mentions a swimmer killed in the ocean off of Malibu Beach, CA; based on your explanation, the fact that he was in SALTWATER, not fresh water, was likely a big contributor to his being hit.
2. "No confirmed cases of any swimmer being hit by lightning in an indoor or outdoor pool"; is this as of 2005 or more recently???
3. You say that the best way to protect a pool would be to put a big piece of steel "way above the pool", then connect it to a grounding system away from people. How high would you put the steel if you were advising a client on upgrading a pool??? Also, would the grounding system really need to be away from people??? You said earlier that skyscrapers run their lightning guidance cables down the sides of the building...maybe an outdoor pool is diff since it is, well, outdoors with no walls enclosing it??? My local YMCA is planning to upgrade their outdoor 25 yd by 50 m pool which I think was built in the 70s. Maybe we could get you on-board as a consultant!!!

Cheers,

Eric


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
Ranger, thanks for weighing in here!!! You are exactly the resource I was looking for when I posted this thread. A couple of thoughts based on your exposition:

1. Several posts above ChrisM mentions a swimmer killed in the ocean off of Malibu Beach, CA; based on your explanation, the fact that he was in SALTWATER, not fresh water, was likely a big contributor to his being hit.
2. "No confirmed cases of any swimmer being hit by lightning in an indoor or outdoor pool"; is this as of 2005 or more recently???
3. You say that the best way to protect a pool would be to put a big piece of steel "way above the pool", then connect it to a grounding system away from people. How high would you put the steel if you were advising a client on upgrading a pool??? Also, would the grounding system really need to be away from people??? You said earlier that skyscrapers run their lightning guidance cables down the sides of the building...maybe an outdoor pool is diff since it is, well, outdoors with no walls enclosing it??? My local YMCA is planning to upgrade their outdoor 25 yd by 50 m pool which I think was built in the 70s. Maybe we could get you on-board as a consultant!!!

Cheers,

Eric

Hmm. Be advised that my ability to sound like I know what I'm talking about is highly trained. But that doesn't mean I really do know what I'm talking about.

1. I found that Reports of swimmer deaths due to lightning strike fall apart under closer inspection. So I would go looking for the source material re. the Malibu Beach death. For example, IIRC, the most often cited source of "lightning killed someone in a US swimming pool" turned out to be a guy that a heart attack when lightning struck the ground near the pool. No indication of electrocution. For someone to be hit while swimming in the ocean he'd have to have been a concentration of a millennia of bad luck. For electricity to kill you, it has to go thru you. Electricity seeks a ground. If the ground is on the other side of you, lets say you're standing on the ground hanging on to a ground rod, then a bolt of lightning might find it's way to the ground rod thru you. That would be bad.

But if you're in the middle of the ocean, your immersed in a great big zone of ground potential. So there's no need to go thru you to get to ground. Ground is everywhere. In fact, because of galvanic skin response, you're actually kind of an insulator in a big zone of ground potential, just not a strong insulator. Sure, if lightning struck right next to you, the voltage would be briefly so high that it might go poorly for you. But having high voltage right next to you is not an immed death. Think about a bird sitting safely on a high voltage wire. It comes back to.....does the electricity have a reason to go thru you. The answer to that depends on the precise scenario, but if you're in the water, I'm thinking "no".

2. I used to carry my whole sheaf of papers in my swim bag. But that was a while ago. I couldn't tell you the exact date of the sources. Certainly after 2000 tho.

3. No. It's a mistake to attempt to apply logic to a largely emotional issue. I don't think that folks aren't likely to risk dicking around trying to divert lightning from a pool. Because we've become so litigious, we're hugely risk averse. Modern lightning protection measures are probably all building code and architectural "best practices" stuff based on 50yr old science. Personally, I think the best you're going to be able to do is to put together an information packet like I did in an attempt to show an adult just how low the level of risk really is. Help them take a look at their insurance policy too. They've probably not read it carefully, and few folks can accurately parse a sentence anyhow. See if you can't get the pool honcho to agree to something like "pool open unless lightning 2mi away".

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
Last edited by: RangerGress: Jun 17, 17 11:06
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
Unlike what we see on TV, water is a crappy conductor. It's the impurities in water that make it a pretty good conductor, salts being a fine way to make water conduct. So pool water is a reasonable insulator. Unlike pool water, you are pretty salty so being immersed in an insulator is not a bad place to be.

Distilled or de-ionized water is a good insulator. Pool water is far less pure. First of all, the water used to fill a pool typically has dissolved, conductive minerals in it. Then it is treated with chlorine, which makes it even more conductive.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
Ranger, thanks for weighing in here!!! You are exactly the resource I was looking for when I posted this thread. A couple of thoughts based on your exposition:

1. Several posts above ChrisM mentions a swimmer killed in the ocean off of Malibu Beach, CA; based on your explanation, the fact that he was in SALTWATER, not fresh water, was likely a big contributor to his being hit.
2. "No confirmed cases of any swimmer being hit by lightning in an indoor or outdoor pool"; is this as of 2005 or more recently???
3. You say that the best way to protect a pool would be to put a big piece of steel "way above the pool", then connect it to a grounding system away from people. How high would you put the steel if you were advising a client on upgrading a pool??? Also, would the grounding system really need to be away from people??? You said earlier that skyscrapers run their lightning guidance cables down the sides of the building...maybe an outdoor pool is diff since it is, well, outdoors with no walls enclosing it??? My local YMCA is planning to upgrade their outdoor 25 yd by 50 m pool which I think was built in the 70s. Maybe we could get you on-board as a consultant!!!

Cheers,

Eric

Hmm. Be advised that my ability to sound like I know what I'm talking about is highly trained. But that doesn't mean I really do know what I'm talking about.

1. I found that Reports of swimmer deaths due to lightning strike fall apart under closer inspection. So I would go looking for the source material re. the Malibu Beach death. For example, IIRC, the most often cited source of "lightning killed someone in a US swimming pool" turned out to be a guy that a heart attack when lightning struck the ground near the pool. No indication of electrocution. For someone to be hit while swimming in the ocean he'd have to have been a concentration of a millennia of bad luck. For electricity to kill you, it has to go thru you. Electricity seeks a ground. If the ground is on the other side of you, lets say you're standing on the ground hanging on to a ground rod, then a bolt of lightning might find it's way to the ground rod thru you. That would be bad.
But if you're in the middle of the ocean, your immersed in a great big zone of ground potential. So there's no need to go thru you to get to ground. Ground is everywhere. In fact, because of galvanic skin response, you're actually kind of an insulator in a big zone of ground potential, just not a strong insulator. Sure, if lightning struck right next to you, the voltage would be briefly so high that it might go poorly for you. But having high voltage right next to you is not an immed death. Think about a bird sitting safely on a high voltage wire. It comes back to.....does the electricity have a reason to go thru you. The answer to that depends on the precise scenario, but if you're in the water, I'm thinking "no".

Nice analysis...:)

2. I used to carry my whole sheaf of papers in my swim bag. But that was a while ago. I couldn't tell you the exact date of the sources. Certainly after 2000 tho.

3. No. It's a mistake to attempt to apply logic to a largely emotional issue. I don't think that folks aren't likely to risk dicking around trying to divert lightning from a pool. Because we've become so litigious, we're hugely risk averse. Modern lightning protection measures are probably all building code and architectural "best practices" stuff based on 50yr old science. Personally, I think the best you're going to be able to do is to put together an information packet like I did in an attempt to show an adult just how low the level of risk really is. Help them take a look at their insurance policy too. They've probably not read it carefully, and few folks can accurately parse a sentence anyhow. See if you can't get the pool honcho to agree to something like "pool open unless lightning 2mi away".

I'm a member of 2 pools so my plan of attack is, whenever the sky looks threatening as i leave my house for the pool, simply to go to the indoor pool with no windows which literally never closes as the gym is open 24/7. When it's sunny with no apparent threat of T, then I go to the outdoor pool.

Some may ask then why I even bothered posting but I just mainly wanted to verify that this getting-run-out-of-the-pool-for-T&L was standard operating procedure (SOP). Apparently, it definitely is SOP at the vast majority of outdoor pools, and even some indoor pools. I definitely appreciate all of your input though as it has helped me understand the issue much better.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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20 year old kid, cause of death electrocution

https://www.google.com/...coroners-office/amp/
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
Ranger, thanks for weighing in here!!! You are exactly the resource I was looking for when I posted this thread. A couple of thoughts based on your exposition:

1. Several posts above ChrisM mentions a swimmer killed in the ocean off of Malibu Beach, CA; based on your explanation, the fact that he was in SALTWATER, not fresh water, was likely a big contributor to his being hit.
2. "No confirmed cases of any swimmer being hit by lightning in an indoor or outdoor pool"; is this as of 2005 or more recently???
3. You say that the best way to protect a pool would be to put a big piece of steel "way above the pool", then connect it to a grounding system away from people. How high would you put the steel if you were advising a client on upgrading a pool??? Also, would the grounding system really need to be away from people??? You said earlier that skyscrapers run their lightning guidance cables down the sides of the building...maybe an outdoor pool is diff since it is, well, outdoors with no walls enclosing it??? My local YMCA is planning to upgrade their outdoor 25 yd by 50 m pool which I think was built in the 70s. Maybe we could get you on-board as a consultant!!!

Cheers,

Eric

Hmm. Be advised that my ability to sound like I know what I'm talking about is highly trained. But that doesn't mean I really do know what I'm talking about.

1. I found that Reports of swimmer deaths due to lightning strike fall apart under closer inspection. So I would go looking for the source material re. the Malibu Beach death. For example, IIRC, the most often cited source of "lightning killed someone in a US swimming pool" turned out to be a guy that a heart attack when lightning struck the ground near the pool. No indication of electrocution. For someone to be hit while swimming in the ocean he'd have to have been a concentration of a millennia of bad luck. For electricity to kill you, it has to go thru you. Electricity seeks a ground. If the ground is on the other side of you, lets say you're standing on the ground hanging on to a ground rod, then a bolt of lightning might find it's way to the ground rod thru you. That would be bad.

But if you're in the middle of the ocean, your immersed in a great big zone of ground potential. So there's no need to go thru you to get to ground. Ground is everywhere. In fact, because of galvanic skin response, you're actually kind of an insulator in a big zone of ground potential, just not a strong insulator. Sure, if lightning struck right next to you, the voltage would be briefly so high that it might go poorly for you. But having high voltage right next to you is not an immed death. Think about a bird sitting safely on a high voltage wire. It comes back to.....does the electricity have a reason to go thru you. The answer to that depends on the precise scenario, but if you're in the water, I'm thinking "no".

2. I used to carry my whole sheaf of papers in my swim bag. But that was a while ago. I couldn't tell you the exact date of the sources. Certainly after 2000 tho.

3. No. It's a mistake to attempt to apply logic to a largely emotional issue. I don't think that folks aren't likely to risk dicking around trying to divert lightning from a pool. Because we've become so litigious, we're hugely risk averse. Modern lightning protection measures are probably all building code and architectural "best practices" stuff based on 50yr old science. Personally, I think the best you're going to be able to do is to put together an information packet like I did in an attempt to show an adult just how low the level of risk really is. Help them take a look at their insurance policy too. They've probably not read it carefully, and few folks can accurately parse a sentence anyhow. See if you can't get the pool honcho to agree to something like "pool open unless lightning 2mi away".


I think you're mistakenly surmising people would be immersed (totally) in the water. I know I'm not, when I'm swimming.

I'd figure you to be a crispy critter if you were within 6' or so of the strike (in the water).

I also have a crisp $20 that says the poster is mistaken about the outdoor pool remaining open, during lightning. The signal to exit the pool, during storms, should be a no-brainer to take safe cover. If you're stupid enough to walk to your car............here's your sign.

**Edit.....I'd also figure you to be deaf.
Last edited by: nc452010: Jun 17, 17 13:05
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
RangerGress wrote:

Unlike what we see on TV, water is a crappy conductor. It's the impurities in water that make it a pretty good conductor, salts being a fine way to make water conduct. So pool water is a reasonable insulator. Unlike pool water, you are pretty salty so being immersed in an insulator is not a bad place to be.


Distilled or de-ionized water is a good insulator. Pool water is far less pure. First of all, the water used to fill a pool typically has dissolved, conductive minerals in it. Then it is treated with chlorine, which makes it even more conductive.


Hmm. Well, I did some poking around to see what I could find. Sure, there's dissolved stuff in a pool, but I'd argue that being a "better" conductor than terrible is simply a bit less terrible. Based on the chart in the link below, I think we're looking at seawater being 7 orders of magnitude worse conductor then the metals we normally think of as "conductors", and drinking water is 2-4 orders of magnitude worse than that. So lets call call pool water halfway between sea water and drinking water in terms of dissolved stuff creating free ions and being conductive. That puts us at 8-9 orders of magnitude crappier conductor then wiring. We get another order of magnitude of insulation value, compared to a real insulator, by the fact that we get to take credit for an honest 6' or better thickness of water.

I guess the bottom line is that pool water isn't very conductive. It's not something that one would choose as an insulator, but there's, I dunno, 15 orders of magnitude of conductivity between insulators and conductors. Pool water is about exactly in the middle.

https://www.thoughtco.com/...-conductivity-608499





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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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nc452010 wrote:
I think you're mistakenly surmising people would be immersed (totally) in the water. I know I'm not, when I'm swimming.

I'd figure you to be a crispy critter if you were within 6' or so of the strike (in the water).

I also have a crisp $20 that says the poster is mistaken about the outdoor pool remaining open, during lightning. The signal to exit the pool, during storms, should be a no-brainer to take safe cover. If you're stupid enough to walk to your car............here's your sign.

I don't think the total immersion issue is a factor. Remember, the start of the lightning strike is a streamer going up, not down. Those streamers are coming up from things at ground potential. The fact that you're swimming in something non-conductive is a big deal. The fact that a couple inches of you is not immersed shouldn't be a big deal when the water is 6' deep in non-conductive material. Of course, the lightning storm might be a bad time to choose to stand in the pool and stretch to the sky. Rubber bottom pool, you're good. Masonry bottom pool, probably less good.

I'm in the deep South (US). Big thunder storms pound thru every afternoon. We don't do much in the way of precautions. Probably don't want to stand in an open field, nor under a tree. Other than that, drive on. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to walk thru a parking lot in a lightning storm. Sure, you "might" be killed but you'd "certainly" lose your man card. Gotta play the percentages. As we used to tell the aviators when we were coordinating fast mover assets with indirect fire...... "big sky, little bullet", meaning (it's necessary to visualize a scene where you're thoroughly exhausted and you've not showered in a week, and you're talking to a clean, rested, perfumed, pompous flyboy) "chances are, you'll be ok. Don't be a wuss".

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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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The electricity's going to take the path of least resistance. If water is such a poor conductor, wouldn't that path be the surface?
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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Air is a lot worse conductor than water. It's a matter, I think, of what location sends up the strongest streamer due to the opposite charges up above in the cloud. Imagine a region of ground 100m on a side. Some trees, some big puddles, and some ground rods of different materials and length that have been banged into the earth. Which of these is the best route to ground? One could make some pretty good predictions but one wouldn't know for sure until they tested because there's variables that can't be intuited. But the one that did have the best ground would send up the strongest streamer, and that should be where the lightning will strike. Probably something metal near or above the pool.

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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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And dirt's not much of a conductor, either. That's why lightning hits the ground and dissipates (as it travels) across the surface.

Path of least resistance.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisM wrote:
20 year old kid, cause of death electrocution

https://www.google.com/...coroners-office/amp/

Not a pool, but that certainly looks like a legit report.

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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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If someone handed me a bunch of papers I'd tell them to fck off. If you want to run the risk of getting struck whether you're in the water or not, go do it on public land or your own private land.

While you are on the pools property the staff have a duty of care. It's not that we just don't want people in the pool in a storm, we don't really want people outside.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
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Aren't accurate facts important and shouldn't they be evaluated?

Kinda true for anything in life. It's how we progress as a society. Just because we thought it was bad doesnt mean it has to be bad forever.

We once thought smoking was good until someone you would have told to f off came in with papers saying otherwise. Glad someone listened... and that didn't change overnight just like this won't.

For what its worth - I swim at LA fitness despite their crappy pool maintenance because I know it'll never be closed. Not for lightning or any other reason.
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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nc452010 wrote:
The electricity's going to take the path of least resistance. If water is such a poor conductor, wouldn't that path be the surface?


In the case of pool/strike on water, the electrical current moves from the grounded plane or source of electrons (e.g. the body of water) up into the charged cloud. Impurities in water conduct. Very pure water - true is not a good conductor. The thing that makes lakes and pools bad is you are the obviously the point, kinda like a spark plug tip.

You can have small localized pockets of charged air - there is no way to predict location or how intense they are. The odds are slim, but when I see activity - I'm out.

We had several lightning strikes around our lake in Ontario . What a light show. Trees mostly, some split in 1/2. There was also a kid that got zapped in a canoe trying to head home in a storm. Got a good buzz but he was OK.

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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [Jnags7] [ In reply to ]
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Not some random research by a random patron. The regulations in Australia are set nationally, if they change then I'll change when I kick people out. But outside of that, a coroner's court isn't going to care if I tell them an engineer told me it might be safe to swim in a storm.

I personally wouldn't even read some random papers handed to me.
Last edited by: TriguyBlue: Jun 18, 17 0:52
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
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TriguyBlue wrote:
If someone handed me a bunch of papers I'd tell them to fck off. If you want to run the risk of getting struck whether you're in the water or not, go do it on public land or your own private land.

While you are on the pools property the staff have a duty of care. It's not that we just don't want people in the pool in a storm, we don't really want people outside.
Some people have so much irresistible charm and charisma that it can be hard to say "no". Others are dicks and they get told "fck off".

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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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I'd at least be nice in person and then throw it in the garbage. If you want the regulations changed you have to take the research to the regulators, not an individual pool where the staff aren't qualified to make that call.

It's an interesting topic, but pool staff aren't in a position to change the rules or even understand the physics of lightning and water.
Last edited by: TriguyBlue: Jun 18, 17 18:56
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Re: Outdoor Pools and Thunder and Lightning (T&L) [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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I have learned in High School Physics Class (more than a quarter century ago) that the one and only reason that they clear the pool / deck is because people do hang on to metal structures in and around the pool (railings, ladders etc.), and these are perfect paths for lightning to strike to.

Hang on to a railing or ladder, and you get fried.....



SharkFM wrote:
nc452010 wrote:
The electricity's going to take the path of least resistance. If water is such a poor conductor, wouldn't that path be the surface?



In the case of pool/strike on water, the electrical current moves from the grounded plane or source of electrons (e.g. the body of water) up into the charged cloud. Impurities in water conduct. Very pure water - true is not a good conductor. The thing that makes lakes and pools bad is you are the obviously the point, kinda like a spark plug tip.

You can have small localized pockets of charged air - there is no way to predict location or how intense they are. The odds are slim, but when I see activity - I'm out.

We had several lightning strikes around our lake in Ontario . What a light show. Trees mostly, some split in 1/2. There was also a kid that got zapped in a canoe trying to head home in a storm. Got a good buzz but he was OK.
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