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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [runner66] [ In reply to ]
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This is per length, yards pool, with a push from the wall?

Definitely work on getting this down. Even 17 is a tad high, but it's a good target.

***
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [runner66] [ In reply to ]
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I think you should focus on better form, technique and holding the water throughout the stroke. Your strokes per length will automatically come down improving those.

just your average age grouper . no one special . no scientific knowledge . just having fun.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [runner66] [ In reply to ]
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To me, SPL is descriptive, not prescriptive. There isn't a specific target that you should strive for, as there are a lot of things that affect it.

That said, your strike count indicates to me that you are slipping a lot of water on the pull. Focus on holding more water, and the SPL will come down as a byproduct of that.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [runner66] [ In reply to ]
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runner66 wrote:
I swim with a masters group and my instructor has been working with me to reduce the number of strokes I take per 25. I usually am at 20-22 spl, but that climbs to 25 when sprinting 25s or 50s. I am slow. My typical pace is 1:40-1:45 per 100 for longer sets, and 1:35 for a 200 or 400. When I get the spl down to 17-19, my instructor has told me that my stroke looks much better, smoother, better rotation, etc. Should I be concentrating on reducing the spl number? I have been doing tris for several years, and my ow times are better than my pool times due to the wetsuit.

It feels like I am working too hard when I take 20-22 spl, but I don't want to sacrifice speed.

Strokes per length is kind of meaningless. Is your wingspan 7 feet or 4 foot 6". What is the length of your body and side of feet and hands? There is no correct number.

Sadly there are ton of coaches standing on deck thinking there is a correct number that is closer to the number for Phelps vs the number for someone like Janet Evans. The hydrodynamics and "oars" of different humans are different. It's like using the hydrodynamics of an Olympic rowing shell and associated oars and then trying to apply the same to a canoe. Why would you ever do that? Yet there is this prevalence of coaches who think that what works for the rowing shell should be applied to the canoe when it comes to swimming!

See what Jason wrote. I am not an expert on the swimming side, but I studied some amount of fluid mechanics in my earlier career to know that some of these coaches are dead wrong and creating dead/stall/high drag positions in the hydrodynamics of the body in the water by artificially pushing really high stroke lengths that are not applicable to certain body types.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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You are not an expert on swimming, yet criticize coaches who probably have more expertise. The difference in stroke rate and technique between Michael Phelps and Janet Evans is surprisingly small. The comparison between a paddling a canoe and rowing a boat is a dumb one. Watch any swim meet (any swim meet where people are swimmers- a competitive high school meet or an age group meet will suffice)- the difference between technique of the faster swimmers is small.

As noted by other commenters, your number of strokes is high. There are several ways to lower it. One is to simply focus on lowering it. Your technique will improve- it will be forced to if you hope to get down the length of a pool in the same amount of time with fewer strokes. Or you can to drill work to improve your technique, and then focus on lowering stroke count.

Technique bits to focus on, in order:
1) Neutral head position. If you are looking forward, your hips will sink. Take a normal standing position, and take that body position and put it in the water. That means you are looking down. Then tilt your eyes forward a little. A LITTLE.
2) When your hands are in the water, your fingertips should be pointed to the bottom, and your elbow should be to the side of the pool.
3) When you are swimming, your left hand should wait out in front of your body at the "11" position until your right hand nears your face. Then it can start to pull. Then your right hand should wait at the "1" position until your left hand nears your face. This will keep you long and efficient.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [beachedbeluga] [ In reply to ]
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On point 3) That will reduce stoke count, but IMO that's too much of a glide phase. I like to see the catch start no later than when the opposite arm is about to release from the water. That gets the strong pull phase of the stroke starting when the opposite hand is around the head, and if the shoulders and hips are in sync, creates what Gary hall sr describes as a nice coupling motion.

Seems like what you are describing is a semi-catch up drill. Which is a good drill for helping improve efficiency, but I wouldn't do regular swim sets like that.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [runner66] [ In reply to ]
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I think of SPL as a directional metric. It tells me how good my form/technique is. When I am fresh and my form is on point my SPL is lower. When I am deep into a set/workout and powering through instead of maintaining form my SPL is higher. SPL becomes an indicator and reminds me that form is more important than power.

As others have said, your goal shouldn't be to lower your SPL. Your goal should be to improve your technique, which will naturally lower your SPL.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [runner66] [ In reply to ]
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runner66 wrote:
I swim with a masters group and my instructor has been working with me to reduce the number of strokes I take per 25. I usually am at 20-22 spl, but that climbs to 25 when sprinting 25s or 50s. I am slow. My typical pace is 1:40-1:45 per 100 for longer sets, and 1:35 for a 200 or 400. When I get the spl down to 17-19, my instructor has told me that my stroke looks much better, smoother, better rotation, etc. Should I be concentrating on reducing the spl number? I have been doing tris for several years, and my ow times are better than my pool times due to the wetsuit.

It feels like I am working too hard when I take 20-22 spl, but I don't want to sacrifice speed.


beachedbeluga wrote:


As noted by other commenters, your number of strokes is high. There are several ways to lower it. One is to simply focus on lowering it. Your technique will improve- it will be forced to if you hope to get down the length of a pool in the same amount of time with fewer strokes. Or you can to drill work to improve your technique, and then focus on lowering stroke count.


This is what it boils down to. OP is aiming for better efficiency and technique. OP, you feel like you're working harder when you are at a higher SPL count because you are. When you go to 25 SPL during a sprint you are increasing your turnover rate and losing some of your technique in your pull and form. Throw on paddles and a pull buoy and your SPL will decrease, your stroke rate will probably decrease, and your technique will probably improve.

I think what Jason and I are saying is, rather than focusing on reducing your SPL, use it as an indicator for improvement in form for a given effort.

just your average age grouper . no one special . no scientific knowledge . just having fun.
Last edited by: way2sloow: Apr 21, 17 10:58
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [beachedbeluga] [ In reply to ]
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beachedbeluga wrote:
1) Neutral head position. If you are looking forward, your hips will sink.

Why will this happen? You aren't rotating around some pivot.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [way2sloow] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty much that.

As an example, every so often I do play games in the pool and try to get my stroke count down as low as possible, speed be damned. (Without dolphin kicking the entire length underwater, of course) I think my pr is 9 strokes, it might be eight. (That's one left + one right = 2 strokes). To do that I have to cheat, ie introducing a massive amount of glide on each stroke, over kicking, and not breathing. It is also substantially slower than my normal cruising form, which is anywhere between 14 and 18 strokes depending on how in shape I am. Better fitness = Better form = lower stroke count at a given speed and higher sustainable speed for a given distance.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Yes you are-your body has two axes- one at your waist, and one that goes the length of your body. Stand up, and push your butt out- your upper body leans forward. If you tilt your head up while swimming freestyle (or butterfly, or breaststroke), your hips will sink. Try it for yourself- next time you go to the pool, float on your stomach. Then, tilt your head up. You will sink.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev, I'll throw two facts out for you.


For the 96 people I have critical pace testing data on, stroke count, (not even adjusted for height) accounts for 50% of the variation in speed.

In 9 years of critical pace testing, we have never had anyone with a stroke count of 19 or higher ever get a time faster than 6 minutes for the 500 yard time trial in our 25 yard pool. Precisely one person has done it at 18 strokes per length. I know there are people around the country who could do it, but it certainly isn't common.

So it is a long way from meaningless.

I do agree with most other folks insofar as the question is how to get faster at swimming - that taking a lot of strokes leads one to think that your catch and streamline could be markedly improved. Just trying to slow down or swim catch up to take fewer strokes isn't the way to go. We need to figure out what about a person's stroke makes them take more strokes to get across the pool; and then fix whatever that is.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [beachedbeluga] [ In reply to ]
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That's somewhat of an individual thing, I think, depending on neck mobility maybe?

I can't try your test because I cant float on my stomach or back without my legs sinking, no matter what I do.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [beachedbeluga] [ In reply to ]
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beachedbeluga wrote:
Yes you are-your body has two axes- one at your waist, and one that goes the length of your body. Stand up, and push your butt out- your upper body leans forward. If you tilt your head up while swimming freestyle (or butterfly, or breaststroke), your hips will sink. Try it for yourself- next time you go to the pool, float on your stomach. Then, tilt your head up. You will sink.

The analogy between swimming and standing on the ground doesn't hold, as you aren't pushing against something in the water to raise your head. You are using muscles in a more-or-less inert medium. If you were in a weightless environment (like floating in a pool or in outer space) and you tilted your head back, your *feet* would also move back (towards the back of your head), exactly opposite to what you are saying will happen.

If you are floating on your stomach in the pool, and you use your neck and back muscles to tilt your head up, there's no force that will sink your lower body and not your whole body: your whole body will ride lower in the water to compensate for the head being above your center of gravity. That's not the same as "your hips will sink."

Are you trying to say that riding lower in the water is the same as "your hips will sink"?

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [runner66] [ In reply to ]
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There's some good discussion on this thread, but I'll add my two cents. Without knowing who your coach is and if they know what they're talking about or not, here's what I think...
If you are seeing an improved stroke by focusing on distance per stroke, they it seems you have your answer. I agree that Janet Evans and other more recent swimmers had success with high stroke rates, but many more swimmers have had success with lower stroke rates. The missing component to this discussion is that these ELITE swimmers everyone is trying to compare to have kicks that alone can be faster than your 100yd pace. You have to do what's right for you. Everyone has a best stroke rate based on who they are. Yours may be 16, it may be 24, or more likely it's in the range of 17-19 as your coach has identified. He's probably seeing you swim a proper, complete arm stroke (including a proper finish), which is why your stroke rate is lower when you concentrate and higher when you swim. Especially since you mention your wetsuit OW swim times are better, I'd guess your kick isn't the greatest and so a higher stroke rate isn't a sin. However, if you're not performing a proper stroke cycle (from catch to finish) and allowing each stroke to develop properly (starting the hip rotation before the pull begins) then you may be taking more strokes than what is most efficient. I'll also comment that the timing of the stroke proposed by whoever wrote about the clock, etc. is one that I agree with completely and was surprised to see others (whose swim opinions I respect) disagree with it.

Again, if you trust your coach, let him/her continue to guide you.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Well, confounding all that is the issue that raising or lowering the head will affect the centre of buoyancy (how it does I haven't bothered to figure out)

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Yes you are pushing against something, you are pushing against gravity. By lifting your head, you now have more mass above your center of gravity, and you will sink. Go float and lift your head, and your hips will sink, then you will sink if you don't do anything to correct it. By lowering your hips in the water, you are swimming with a greater angle of attack to the water, thus increasing your drag.

Go try it, let me know what happens. Not only will your hips sink, your feet will sink, you will go vertical, and sink if you do nothing to correct it.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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If you can't float on your stomach, then float on your stomach and do the bare minimum kick it takes to keep your legs up. While kicking, slowly change your head position from neutral to looking forward and see what happens.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
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Kevin in MD wrote:
Dev, I'll throw two facts out for you.


For the 96 people I have critical pace testing data on, stroke count, (not even adjusted for height) accounts for 50% of the variation in speed.

In 9 years of critical pace testing, we have never had anyone with a stroke count of 19 or higher ever get a time faster than 6 minutes for the 500 yard time trial in our 25 yard pool. Precisely one person has done it at 18 strokes per length. I know there are people around the country who could do it, but it certainly isn't common.

I guess I was one of those (back when I swam Masters around age 30-32), as I would typically take 20-21 strokes and I did a 5:18 500 scy.

For me, and perhaps others, it was and is physiologically difficult to streamline with an extended arm, due to shoulder "impingement". So if I were to hold the extension for any amount of time, it would be with my hand perhaps a foot underwater, which obviously was very non-hydrodynamic. I adapted to this by swimming with a high head position that effectively put my extended arm more in the line of travel, and pulling very early after reaching full extension. This results in very high turnover from having no glide whatsoever. For this reason, I also have a relatively short breakout off the wall.

Perhaps this would work for others who don't have the shoulder flexibility required to hold a streamlined position.

(to give you an idea, if I stand with my heels, butt, and shoulders to a wall and extend my arms overhead, my hands don't come within a foot of the wall behind my head)

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [beachedbeluga] [ In reply to ]
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beachedbeluga wrote:
Yes you are pushing against something, you are pushing against gravity. By lifting your head, you now have more mass above your center of gravity, and you will sink. Go float and lift your head, and your hips will sink, then you will sink if you don't do anything to correct it. By lowering your hips in the water, you are swimming with a greater angle of attack to the water, thus increasing your drag.

Go try it, let me know what happens. Not only will your hips sink, your feet will sink, you will go vertical, and sink if you do nothing to correct it.

So when you say "your hips will sink" you really mean your whole body will sink. I don't agree that it changes your angle of attack, as you haven't explained the physics of that (see my example of what happens in a weightless environment).

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Go try it. Then you will understand. Or you can draw out a force diagram. And after you draw out a force diagram, you can try it. Jump in a pool. Float on your stomach. Lift your head. Do nothing else. If you don't sink, I assume you can also turn water into wine, or have a BMI of 30+.

Then, while you are swimming freestyle, notice what happens to your hips as you lift your head higher and higher.

And then, watch this youtube video showing everything and more of what I described.

http://www.savagesentiments.blogspot.com/
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
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Kevin in MD wrote:
Dev, I'll throw two facts out for you.


For the 96 people I have critical pace testing data on, stroke count, (not even adjusted for height) accounts for 50% of the variation in speed.

In 9 years of critical pace testing, we have never had anyone with a stroke count of 19 or higher ever get a time faster than 6 minutes for the 500 yard time trial in our 25 yard pool. Precisely one person has done it at 18 strokes per length. I know there are people around the country who could do it, but it certainly isn't common.

So it is a long way from meaningless.

I do agree with most other folks insofar as the question is how to get faster at swimming - that taking a lot of strokes leads one to think that your catch and streamline could be markedly improved. Just trying to slow down or swim catch up to take fewer strokes isn't the way to go. We need to figure out what about a person's stroke makes them take more strokes to get across the pool; and then fix whatever that is.

This is GREAT information. Thanks!
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
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Kevin in MD wrote:
In 9 years of critical pace testing, we have never had anyone with a stroke count of 19 or higher ever get a time faster than 6 minutes for the 500 yard time trial in our 25 yard pool. Precisely one person has done it at 18 strokes per length. I know there are people around the country who could do it, but it certainly isn't common.


I counted 48 for a 50m length for Laure Manaudou here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG9e81gjbAA


I'm not trained for swimming nowadays, but when I do go and swim, my slowness compared to when I was trained is almost entirely due to a reduced stroke rate rather than an increased stroke count.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [beachedbeluga] [ In reply to ]
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If literally "all" you do is lift your head, then in theory what should happen in a static model is that the head (because it is above the surface of the water) will lower and actually raise the legs.

The problem is that this isn't all we do, and we aren't static.

I have been working on getting my head down, but the reason is that it gets the legs up, and this part is important, while maintaining the same shoulder height relative to the surface of the water. Or put another way, I can get my shoulders higher while maintaining the same leg height (since dropping my legs isn't a problem for me)

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Please. Go try it. Watch the video I linked earlier. Tell me what happens.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Have you found you've had to work on this as you've progressed in the sport?
Mainly due to the increased muscle density from running and biking?

I only ask because I come from a swimming back ground with little running (did run hurdles and the 400 in HS) and recreational mountain biking (nothing serious).

I've found that my legs do sink more now than when I was just a swimmer.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [way2sloow] [ In reply to ]
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way2sloow wrote:

This is what it boils down to. OP is aiming for better efficiency and technique. OP, you feel like you're working harder when you are at a higher SPL count because you are. When you go to 25 SPL during a sprint you are increasing your turnover rate and losing some of your technique in your pull and form. Throw on paddles and a pull buoy and your SPL will decrease, your stroke rate will probably decrease, and your technique will probably improve.

I think what Jason and I are saying is, rather than focusing on reducing your SPL, use it as an indicator for improvement in form for a given effort.

I'm with this guy. I think SPL is huge, but it is an indicator for improving on technique and efficiency. I highly, highly encourage as well to swim 3/4 catchup when swimming distance. Why? It allows you to have active streamline, meaning having one arm out in front of you for over 75% of your stroke cycle allows you cut through the water a lot cleaner and carry the momentum from each stroke and each kick. The more windmillish of a stroke you have, meaning you got your arms at like 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock at some point, the more you're opening up your body and aren't as clean through the water and are actually slowing momentum. For me, doing this cuts my stroke rate way down and be more efficient.

A good metric to use is SWOLF. Don't use Garmin's watch metric. Do it yourself. Do a 50 freestyle. Count each stroke (not cycle, but each stroke). So maybe you take 17 strokes heading out, 18 strokes heading back. Add that up and it's 35 strokes. Then, add your time in. Say you went 47 seconds. Okay, 35+47 = 82. 82 is then your SWOLF count. But just like golf, you want that to be as low as you can. Less strokes with a similar time means more efficiency. Less strokes with a faster time means really more efficient. Work on getting that count down.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [lessthaneight] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not a big fan of SWOLF. I prefer to use time and RPE. Faster at a given effort (say perceived 400 pace) is more efficient. Faster in a long set of repeats (say 10x100 or 20 x100 on 10-20s rest ) is more efficient.

The problem with excessive gliding is that you slow down on the glide. Which means that you then have to reaccelerate. Then slow down again then reaccelerate. On every stroke.

No one at the top level has a true glide in competition . Not even sun yang.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
runner66 wrote:
I swim with a masters group and my instructor has been working with me to reduce the number of strokes I take per 25. I usually am at 20-22 spl, but that climbs to 25 when sprinting 25s or 50s. I am slow. My typical pace is 1:40-1:45 per 100 for longer sets, and 1:35 for a 200 or 400. When I get the spl down to 17-19, my instructor has told me that my stroke looks much better, smoother, better rotation, etc. Should I be concentrating on reducing the spl number? I have been doing tris for several years, and my ow times are better than my pool times due to the wetsuit.

It feels like I am working too hard when I take 20-22 spl, but I don't want to sacrifice speed.


Strokes per length is kind of meaningless. Is your wingspan 7 feet or 4 foot 6". What is the length of your body and side of feet and hands? There is no correct number.

Sadly there are ton of coaches standing on deck thinking there is a correct number that is closer to the number for Phelps vs the number for someone like Janet Evans. The hydrodynamics and "oars" of different humans are different. It's like using the hydrodynamics of an Olympic rowing shell and associated oars and then trying to apply the same to a canoe. Why would you ever do that? Yet there is this prevalence of coaches who think that what works for the rowing shell should be applied to the canoe when it comes to swimming!

See what Jason wrote. I am not an expert on the swimming side, but I studied some amount of fluid mechanics in my earlier career to know that some of these coaches are dead wrong and creating dead/stall/high drag positions in the hydrodynamics of the body in the water by artificially pushing really high stroke lengths that are not applicable to certain body types.

I'm with you. (I also suspect I know where you quoted it all from)

All these "experts" haven't explained why Harry Wiltshire was first out of the water at Kona.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVC42uR-RyU


They also haven't mentioned how many people they've had be first out the water. Given their training is so tried and tested.

Kevin in MD wrote:

In 9 years of critical pace testing, we have never had anyone with a stroke count of 19 or higher ever get a time faster than 6 minutes for the 500 yard time trial in our 25 yard pool. Precisely one person has done it at 18 strokes per length. I know there are people around the country who could do it, but it certainly isn't common.

So it is a long way from meaningless.

.

It's a good job that the IM swim is only 500 yards isn't it. After all, lets practice what we can do whilst sprinting (cause that's what 500yrds is "relatively" ) for an endurance race. It's important to be great for 500 yards and then garbage for the next few thousand.



For reference, I swam with a group that amongst other things used to focus on lowering the stroke count (and this coach has written for, the now defunct, Triathlete Magazine Europe in the past)

I found I had far too much "glide" as a result. Which given I was racing in Open Water is largely pointless. Since the general chop/swirl and whatever doesn't really lend itself to gliding anywhere!

Switched to a different group, And once I had a tempo trainer making me up the stroke count I got a lot faster! AND as I was more efficient so I got to the bike fresher.

And I'm by no means a decent swimmer.
28/1500 and 1h15 / 3.8k
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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I've got a pretty efficient stroke and here's one thing that helped get me there - Whenever you take a break to relax around your house, lay flat on your back with your arms over your head in the same position as if you are pushing off the wall (arms straight and hands overlapped.)

You'll feel a lot of tightness and even pain in your lats and armpits and shoulder joints. You probably won't be able to get your hands near the floor at all... at first. Hold that position and you'll feel the stretching happening a bit in just a few minutes.

Do it daily for a few weeks and soon you should be laying totally flat. The trick is to make it a daily habit by integrating it with another daily habit at the same time. If you make a daily phone call or watch a tv show, make a habit of doing it then. Then you'll always do it and boom, torpedo flexibility achieved.

After I get up every day, I have a cup of coffee and a snack, and then spend a few minutes thinking about the day ahead. That's when I do mine.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [beachedbeluga] [ In reply to ]
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beachedbeluga wrote:
You are not an expert on swimming, yet criticize coaches who probably have more expertise. The difference in stroke rate and technique between Michael Phelps and Janet Evans is surprisingly small. The comparison between a paddling a canoe and rowing a boat is a dumb one. Watch any swim meet (any swim meet where people are swimmers- a competitive high school meet or an age group meet will suffice)- the difference between technique of the faster swimmers is small.

As noted by other commenters, your number of strokes is high. There are several ways to lower it. One is to simply focus on lowering it. Your technique will improve- it will be forced to if you hope to get down the length of a pool in the same amount of time with fewer strokes. Or you can to drill work to improve your technique, and then focus on lowering stroke count.

Technique bits to focus on, in order:
1) Neutral head position. If you are looking forward, your hips will sink. Take a normal standing position, and take that body position and put it in the water. That means you are looking down. Then tilt your eyes forward a little. A LITTLE.
2) When your hands are in the water, your fingertips should be pointed to the bottom, and your elbow should be to the side of the pool.
3) When you are swimming, your left hand should wait out in front of your body at the "11" position until your right hand nears your face. Then it can start to pull. Then your right hand should wait at the "1" position until your left hand nears your face. This will keep you long and efficient.

A couple of things. First of all, I never mentioned my own stroke count per length so not sure where you decided if mine was high or low. Secondly, I used some extreme examples in referring to naval architecture to make a point. Obviously the variation between humans is not the same as between a rowing shell and a canoe, but there is variation between humans.

Of course the variation in technique between faster swimmers at a swim meet is small just like the variation between how NFL wide receivers catch a football is small or how pro tennis players hit a tennis ball is small. There is obviously "good technique" to aspire towards. I never said that you should not. I was mainly pointing out that the stroke count per length can vary between a really short person and really tall person. It's just basic physics. No point denying that. What each person does inside a stroke should converge for all of us inside each stroke to the sports best practices. How that results in strokes per length in a pool will be different depending on size of the body.

...and while I am not an expert in swimming, I am more an expert at it than a LOT of coaches standing on the deck especially when it comes to freestyle for adult swimmers trying to get competent at triathlon swimming. I am only criticizing those coaches who don't get some of the subtleties of what makes a competent wetsuit triathlon swimmer. I get it that becoming an awesome pool swimmer is going to make you an awesome wetsuit tri swimmer, but in many cases, we don't have "time or opportunity" to make an adult onset swimmer who can only get to the pool 2x per week for 30 minutes for 4 months per year that good anyway. So it's really what can you get to.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [beachedbeluga] [ In reply to ]
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Look at what Jasoninhalifax wrote above:


The problem with excessive gliding is that you slow down on the glide. Which means that you then have to reaccelerate. Then slow down again then reaccelerate. On every stroke.


No one at the top level has a true glide in competition . Not even sun yang.


That's exactly what I am getting at. I can get my stroke count per length down to 10 strokes per length by just gliding, kicking, and essentially having no upper body propulsion. Lots of guys cheat their way to excessively long length per stroke, but end up with excessively low stroke rate, which of course results in slower swimming. If you are short person trying to get the same stroke length as a 7 footer, you'll just spend a lot of time in the zero propulsion phase. Bad idea.

I see all kinds of people (triathletes) who take 40-45 minutes for a half Ironman with excessively low stroke rate who look pretty in the water and take nice long strokes....but they are getting nowhere slowly and to top it off, they are getting less oxygen by artificially taking so few strokes per length and spending so much time stalling in a zero propulsion phase.

Sun Yang can take nice long strokes but his stroke rate is decent, but mainly he's never in the zero propulsion phase.

Dev
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Never said anything about excessive gliding. I'm talking about not opening up your stroke early. Lots of people recover over the top and start their pull as soon as their hand hits the water. That means that they are swimming 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock. So when you're half way through a stroke, you're head is leading the way. That is a lot of resistance. That's why you don't streamline with your arms at your side. 3/4 catch up allows for that active streamline and to use more of that propulsion out of each pull. You don't have to slow your stroke rate down or overtly glide. I actually don't advocate for either of those. But efficiency to me means getting the most out of each stroke.

Totally get what you're saying about RPE and time, but also think changes there have a lot more to do with increase in aerobic capacity than SWOLF does. That's what I'd promote SWOLF in a case like this where the conversation is about stroke efficiency.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [lessthaneight] [ In reply to ]
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on pull sets [tiniest paddle TYR makes] I'm around 14/lap [L+R], normal freestyle 18-20 [base pace like 1:25/100y], sprint up around 24-5 [not going to state sprint pace lol cry]

//Noob triathlete//bike commuter//ex-swimmer//slower than you

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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Steve Irwin wrote:
I'm not trained for swimming nowadays, but when I do go and swim, my slowness compared to when I was trained is almost entirely due to a reduced stroke rate rather than an increased stroke count.[/font]

The retest data I have shows that people re-attaining speed don't change their stroke count. Its most obvious looking at adult onset vs youth onset swimmers. Youth onset swimmers don't change their stroke counts.

I see similar things with adult onset swimmers looking to get back to their former speed, their strokes don't really get longer, their turnover gets faster.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [lessthaneight] [ In reply to ]
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Im talking about speed/rpe at the same level of fitness, not as a training effect.

In college, we played with swolf as an exercise, on occasion, but it wasn't trained and wasn't monitored. We just worked on pace and some hr (heart rate was the trend at the time.

I've never said anything about a windmill stroke being the most efficient. I agree that you want your lead arm outstretched for better streamlining (mostly because getting that mass out front narrows the frontal profile and gets the legs up). That's why a quick recovery is important, it gets the recovering arm into a streamline quickly, so that the lead arm is streamlined when the pulling arm gets to the peak power phase of the stroke

But I think that waiting until the recovering arm is passing the head before even starting the catch phase of the pull is excessive gliding. That's a huge dead spot.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [lessthaneight] [ In reply to ]
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you do not want to swim through chop with a catch up
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with you there. I would argue that there's not really a dead spot. With keeping that active streamline, you're actually probably carrying more momentum and losing less than if you were to open up any sooner and start your stroke 0.1-0.2 earlier.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
I've got a pretty efficient stroke and here's one thing that helped get me there - Whenever you take a break to relax around your house, lay flat on your back with your arms over your head in the same position as if you are pushing off the wall (arms straight and hands overlapped.)

You'll feel a lot of tightness and even pain in your lats and armpits and shoulder joints. You probably won't be able to get your hands near the floor at all... at first. Hold that position and you'll feel the stretching happening a bit in just a few minutes.

Do it daily for a few weeks and soon you should be laying totally flat. The trick is to make it a daily habit by integrating it with another daily habit at the same time. If you make a daily phone call or watch a tv show, make a habit of doing it then. Then you'll always do it and boom, torpedo flexibility achieved.

After I get up every day, I have a cup of coffee and a snack, and then spend a few minutes thinking about the day ahead. That's when I do mine.

While I certainly appreciate the ideas you give, believe me that I tried when I first started swimming. Lots of stretching, hanging, PT, etc. Wasn't going to happen.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [stoobie] [ In reply to ]
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stoobie wrote:
Have you found you've had to work on this as you've progressed in the sport?
Mainly due to the increased muscle density from running and biking?

I only ask because I come from a swimming back ground with little running (did run hurdles and the 400 in HS) and recreational mountain biking (nothing serious).

I've found that my legs do sink more now than when I was just a swimmer.

Not really, I've always carried a lot of muscle in my legs, especially quads and hamstrings / butt. I don't do a lot of bike or run anymore, but they don't really change my muscle mass in my legs.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [runner66] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn't stress the stroke count. Try to have your hand exit the water the same place you had it enter. Count will take care of itself if you can do that.

Formerly TriBrad02
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [runner66] [ In reply to ]
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Oh, I should add I was speaking in generalities before, not just to your specific situation.

your coach sees things that we cannot (obviously). If coach says that your stroke looks best at 17-19 strokes, then work towards that because that is a DPS that should work for you. You can get the speed by training with those mechanics that get you the distance per stroke and increasing turnover while maintaining the DPS.

runner66 wrote:
I swim with a masters group and my instructor has been working with me to reduce the number of strokes I take per 25. I usually am at 20-22 spl, but that climbs to 25 when sprinting 25s or 50s. I am slow. My typical pace is 1:40-1:45 per 100 for longer sets, and 1:35 for a 200 or 400. When I get the spl down to 17-19, my instructor has told me that my stroke looks much better, smoother, better rotation, etc. Should I be concentrating on reducing the spl number? I have been doing tris for several years, and my ow times are better than my pool times due to the wetsuit.

It feels like I am working too hard when I take 20-22 spl, but I don't want to sacrifice speed.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [runner66] [ In reply to ]
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As an experienced swimmer I concentrate on stroke technique not stroke count.
When I hear your stroke count per 25 yards it makes me think that you don't know how to concentrate on stroke technique.
When I hear your coach give you instructions based on stroke count instead of technique it makes me think he doesn't know how to teach stroke technique.

Based on all that you can see why I and others are reluctant to try and give much advice based on SPL criteria.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [SH] [ In reply to ]
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Depends on if they are using SPL as an individualized marker (ie observes stroke looks good here, what's the stroke count? Ie it's just a reference point for where runner66's stroke seems to come together nicely.

If the coach is just using SPL as a target in and of itself, that would be dumb, but I'll assume that the coach actually knows what they are doing.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Depends on if they are using SPL as an individualized marker (ie observes stroke looks good here, what's the stroke count? Ie it's just a reference point for where runner66's stroke seems to come together nicely.

If the coach is just using SPL as a target in and of itself, that would be dumb, but I'll assume that the coach actually knows what they are doing.

Sure, let's give the coach the benefit of the doubt, and assume he knows what he's doing. =)

But, thanks to the coach, does Runner66 know what he's doing? When I see an OP that's functionally fixated on stroke count it makes me think that he has missed the big picture here. Now we essentially get asked: "Guys, should I take 18 strokes or 20 strokes per length?". Experienced swimmer know that this is not a good question. That's the danger of even bringing up SPL with inexperienced swimmers IMO -- it's too easy a concept for them to make primal, and that's not what it should be.
Last edited by: SH: Apr 21, 17 18:50
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [SH] [ In reply to ]
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SH wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Depends on if they are using SPL as an individualized marker (ie observes stroke looks good here, what's the stroke count? Ie it's just a reference point for where runner66's stroke seems to come together nicely.

If the coach is just using SPL as a target in and of itself, that would be dumb, but I'll assume that the coach actually knows what they are doing.

Sure, let's give the coach the benefit of the doubt, and assume he knows what he's doing. =)

But, thanks to the coach, does Runner66 know what he's doing? When I see an OP that's functionally fixated on stroke count it makes me think that he has missed the big picture here. Now we essentially get asked: "Guys, should I take 18 strokes or 20 strokes per length?". Experienced swimmer know that this is not a good question. That's the danger of even bringing up SPL with inexperienced swimmers IMO -- it's too easy a concept for them to make primal, and that's not what it should be.

A few good points in what you said above and what you said here:


As an experienced swimmer I concentrate on stroke technique not stroke count.
When I hear your stroke count per 25 yards it makes me think that you don't know how to concentrate on stroke technique.
When I hear your coach give you instructions based on stroke count instead of technique it makes me think he doesn't know how to teach stroke technique.


Based on all that you can see why I and others are reluctant to try and give much advice based on SPL criteria.



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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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How does this kind of flexibility make somebody more efficient in the water if stroke technique still sucks?
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [Petrarch] [ In reply to ]
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Petrarch wrote:
How does this kind of flexibility make somebody more efficient in the water if stroke technique still sucks?

It should enable one to get into a better streamline so you can access better technique. You just can't access that aspect of better technique if you can't put your body into the correct configuration in the first place. Imagine a high jumper you cannot arch his back to clear the bar. He'll always just lower than a jumper who can. Being able to do some things with your body that others can't can help with certain things in certain sports. If you can't put your body in the preferred position for an aspect of technique for that sport, you'll just miss out on being able to do some element.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [SH] [ In reply to ]
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SH wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Depends on if they are using SPL as an individualized marker (ie observes stroke looks good here, what's the stroke count? Ie it's just a reference point for where runner66's stroke seems to come together nicely.

If the coach is just using SPL as a target in and of itself, that would be dumb, but I'll assume that the coach actually knows what they are doing.

Sure, let's give the coach the benefit of the doubt, and assume he knows what he's doing. =)

But, thanks to the coach, does Runner66 know what he's doing? When I see an OP that's functionally fixated on stroke count it makes me think that he has missed the big picture here. Now we essentially get asked: "Guys, should I take 18 strokes or 20 strokes per length?". Experienced swimmer know that this is not a good question. That's the danger of even bringing up SPL with inexperienced swimmers IMO -- it's too easy a concept for them to make primal, and that's not what it should be.

Good points

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [runner66] [ In reply to ]
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I do think think strokes per length matters, and it definitely matters among most pure swimmers. One "breakthrough" I had as a young swimmer was learning what "power" means in swimming, and realizing the difference between "windmilling" with high turnover vs. pulling hard each stroke, like a "piston" or something. These days, when I'm in swim shape, I'm about 17 per length. I have a terrible swim kick, and have always been a strong puller – love the pull buoy!

Some other things that help:
- Flip turns with long streamlines obviously reduce strokes per length.
- Having long limbs does make a difference. There's a really tall guy at my pool who's really powerful and takes 11-14 strokes per length. I don't know how he does it! It's amazing.
- Having a strong kick can also lower your strokes per length.

It can help to take some underwater video and have a knowledgeable coach go over it with you. Borrow a waterproof GoPro or put a camera in a water-tight Ziplock.

Focus on trying to squeeze and press through each stroke for power per stroke. Drop your head more than you think you need to. Lift weights to help with tricep and lat strength. Relax each arms on the recovery between strokes (drills can help learn this). Think of swim speed as based on the arms/hands as a slow piston, and not as a fast turnover windmill.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
While I certainly appreciate the ideas you give, believe me that I tried when I first started swimming. Lots of stretching, hanging, PT, etc. Wasn't going to happen.

Ok... Well... You're your own roadblock then. Nobody else can help you until you quit believing you're the one person on earth who can't become more flexible. shrug.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
klehner wrote:

While I certainly appreciate the ideas you give, believe me that I tried when I first started swimming. Lots of stretching, hanging, PT, etc. Wasn't going to happen.


Ok... Well... You're your own roadblock then. Nobody else can help you until you quit believing you're the one person on earth who can't become more flexible. shrug.

I've got flexibility challenges that sound very similar to what klehner describes and attempts to remedy through stretching, limited PT exercises and yoga, well nothing has made much difference over the years. One of the workaround solutions is just as klehner describes and it's effective enough in terms of triathlon performance for anyone who puts in the work to be properly swim fit.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
klehner wrote:

While I certainly appreciate the ideas you give, believe me that I tried when I first started swimming. Lots of stretching, hanging, PT, etc. Wasn't going to happen.


Ok... Well... You're your own roadblock then. Nobody else can help you until you quit believing you're the one person on earth who can't become more flexible. shrug.

Nice. Thanks.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [gregn] [ In reply to ]
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gregn wrote:
ZenTriBrett wrote:
klehner wrote:

While I certainly appreciate the ideas you give, believe me that I tried when I first started swimming. Lots of stretching, hanging, PT, etc. Wasn't going to happen.


Ok... Well... You're your own roadblock then. Nobody else can help you until you quit believing you're the one person on earth who can't become more flexible. shrug.


I've got flexibility challenges that sound very similar to what klehner describes and attempts to remedy through stretching, limited PT exercises and yoga, well nothing has made much difference over the years. One of the workaround solutions is just as klehner describes and it's effective enough in terms of triathlon performance for anyone who puts in the work to be properly swim fit.

I guess we are the *two* people on earth, then.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
klehner wrote:

While I certainly appreciate the ideas you give, believe me that I tried when I first started swimming. Lots of stretching, hanging, PT, etc. Wasn't going to happen.


Ok... Well... You're your own roadblock then. Nobody else can help you until you quit believing you're the one person on earth who can't become more flexible. shrug.

Out of curiosity, how old are you? I'm 55 and a very poor (2:10/100y) adult onset swimmer. I have very poor flexibility and no matter how much stretching I do I haven't been able to increase my flexibility significantly.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [SH] [ In reply to ]
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SH wrote:
As an experienced swimmer I concentrate on stroke technique not stroke count.
When I hear your stroke count per 25 yards it makes me think that you don't know how to concentrate on stroke technique.
When I hear your coach give you instructions based on stroke count instead of technique it makes me think he doesn't know how to teach stroke technique.

Based on all that you can see why I and others are reluctant to try and give much advice based on SPL criteria.

Since you're too modest to mention it, I'll add that you're also the current WR holder in the men's 50-54 100 scm IM, going 1:00.57 in Dec 2016. Congrats on that WR; is that the first WR of your life???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [runner66] [ In reply to ]
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Rio Olympic 1500 m Paltrinieri swims 39 strokes per 1500 and wins. He is 6'3". Connor Jaeger 6'0" 28 strokes per 50 comes in second. Two swimmers both elite big difference in strokes per length. Yang swims 28 per 50 and Cochrane 36 Yang is a I believe 2 inches taller but that is a fairly different stroke count. Open water swimmers take more strokes for distance. When I lower my stroke count I get slower and my shoulders start to hurt. I want a coach who improves my technique and finds the stroke rate that makes me fastest not one who is focused on strokes per length.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [runner66] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not someone who can give you any advice on swimming, but I can at least share an observation that might be helpful.

I watched my stroke count per length drop as a result of getting faster, not the other way around. [edit: originally wrote "stroke rate". Meant "count"]

Better catch, better overall form, and stronger lats - the other things I did that made me faster just sort of brought my stroke count [edit again] down naturally
Last edited by: JoeO: Apr 22, 17 17:58
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [len] [ In reply to ]
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Moral of the story: The best stroke count is the one that gets you from point a to point b the fastest.

just your average age grouper . no one special . no scientific knowledge . just having fun.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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JoeO wrote:
I'm not someone who can give you any advice on swimming, but I can at least share an observation that might be helpful.

I watched my stroke rate drop as a result of getting faster, not the other way around.

Better catch, better overall form, and stronger lats - the other things I did that made me faster just sort of brought my stroke rate down naturally

Stroke rate or stroke count?
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, typo, I meant stroke count.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [Race1] [ In reply to ]
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Race1 wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
runner66 wrote:
I swim with a masters group and my instructor has been working with me to reduce the number of strokes I take per 25. I usually am at 20-22 spl, but that climbs to 25 when sprinting 25s or 50s. I am slow. My typical pace is 1:40-1:45 per 100 for longer sets, and 1:35 for a 200 or 400. When I get the spl down to 17-19, my instructor has told me that my stroke looks much better, smoother, better rotation, etc. Should I be concentrating on reducing the spl number? I have been doing tris for several years, and my ow times are better than my pool times due to the wetsuit.

It feels like I am working too hard when I take 20-22 spl, but I don't want to sacrifice speed.


Strokes per length is kind of meaningless. Is your wingspan 7 feet or 4 foot 6". What is the length of your body and side of feet and hands? There is no correct number.

Sadly there are ton of coaches standing on deck thinking there is a correct number that is closer to the number for Phelps vs the number for someone like Janet Evans. The hydrodynamics and "oars" of different humans are different. It's like using the hydrodynamics of an Olympic rowing shell and associated oars and then trying to apply the same to a canoe. Why would you ever do that? Yet there is this prevalence of coaches who think that what works for the rowing shell should be applied to the canoe when it comes to swimming!

See what Jason wrote. I am not an expert on the swimming side, but I studied some amount of fluid mechanics in my earlier career to know that some of these coaches are dead wrong and creating dead/stall/high drag positions in the hydrodynamics of the body in the water by artificially pushing really high stroke lengths that are not applicable to certain body types.


I'm with you. (I also suspect I know where you quoted it all from)

All these "experts" haven't explained why Harry Wiltshire was first out of the water at Kona.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVC42uR-RyU


They also haven't mentioned how many people they've had be first out the water. Given their training is so tried and tested.

Kevin in MD wrote:

In 9 years of critical pace testing, we have never had anyone with a stroke count of 19 or higher ever get a time faster than 6 minutes for the 500 yard time trial in our 25 yard pool. Precisely one person has done it at 18 strokes per length. I know there are people around the country who could do it, but it certainly isn't common.
So it is a long way from meaningless.


It's a good job that the IM swim is only 500 yards isn't it. After all, lets practice what we can do whilst sprinting (cause that's what 500yrds is "relatively" ) for an endurance race. It's important to be great for 500 yards and then garbage for the next few thousand.
For reference, I swam with a group that amongst other things used to focus on lowering the stroke count (and this coach has written for, the now defunct, Triathlete Magazine Europe in the past)
I found I had far too much "glide" as a result. Which given I was racing in Open Water is largely pointless. Since the general chop/swirl and whatever doesn't really lend itself to gliding anywhere!
Switched to a different group, And once I had a tempo trainer making me up the stroke count I got a lot faster! AND as I was more efficient so I got to the bike fresher.
And I'm by no means a decent swimmer.
28/1500 and 1h15 / 3.8k

Actually, the 500 free is an excellent predictor of speed in longer races like the 1000, 1650, and even the 4200 yd iron swim. The 500 is short enough that you're not totally trashed after an all-out effort but long enough that you get into endurance territory. Thus it makes an excellent distance to assess progress every 3-4 weeks.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
Kevin in MD wrote:

In 9 years of critical pace testing, we have never had anyone with a stroke count of 19 or higher ever get a time faster than 6 minutes for the 500 yard time trial in our 25 yard pool. Precisely one person has done it at 18 strokes per length. I know there are people around the country who could do it, but it certainly isn't common.


I guess I was one of those (back when I swam Masters around age 30-32), as I would typically take 20-21 strokes and I did a 5:18 500 scy.
streamlined position.

Like Ken, I am another exception. I am 5'7"and my normal stroke count in a 25y pool for distances ranging from 500y to the USMS 1 hour postal swim is 19-21 strokes per length. Back in college when I did a sub 5 min 500 and sub 17 min 1650 the stroke count was consistently 19-21 strokes per length with the pace getting faster when the stroke count went up because the turnover was higher. My natural stroke rate is in the upper 80s to low 90s when racing. Others can race with a stroke rate closer to 60 strokes per min at the same pace as my 90 spm rate. They tend to have a stronger catch, pull and kick. I increase my pace by speeding up the recovery and throwing my arms rather than trying to get more power out of the pull or by kicking harder. It isn't pretty but it works for me.

I think newer swimmers should work on efficiency first, and that will usually result in a lower stroke count. The stroke count is one easy way to help assess efficiency. Just reducing the stroke count won't necessarily make one more efficient or help with speed though. Hell, I can pull and do as few as 11 strokes per length but it is sooo slow. There really is no magic number that is ideal. Sub-18 spl? Perhaps for some but others may be better off at 20 spl. Once a swimmer has a relatively efficient stroke, improvement gains may be found by increasing the stroke rate even if the number of strokes per length increases. Of course if one can increase the stroke rate while keeping the same number of strokes per length, the speed will certainly increase. That's the tricky part! Less strokes are not necessarily better. I am a big fan of playing around with a Tempo Trainer to see what rate results in the fastest time. It really is different strokes for different folks.

-leh
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:

Actually, the 500 free is an excellent predictor of speed in longer races like the 1000, 1650, and even the 4200 yd iron swim. The 500 is short enough that you're not totally trashed after an all-out effort but long enough that you get into endurance territory. Thus it makes an excellent distance to assess progress every 3-4 weeks.

I know that people like to say that, but it's the same as saying my 10K time has any bearing on my Marathon. If it did I'd be a sub 3, and I am sadly not

So I don't buy it. :)
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [Race1] [ In reply to ]
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My most recent 400m and 1500m free ... 4:14.6 and 16:58.9 respectively. I know based on my times in shorter races if my 800/1500 are on track training wise. Race day execution and pacing is another deal.

I probably was out too quick in the first 150 in the 1500 and cost my self a sub 16:50 swim.

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Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [beachedbeluga] [ In reply to ]
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beachedbeluga wrote:
Please. Go try it. Watch the video I linked earlier. Tell me what happens.

I did exactly this in the morning swim workout. Raising my head while doing freestyle had absolutely no effect on the angle of my body in the water. No effect. My legs and hips were the same relative to the surface of the water. Even if raising my head lowered my body, the effect was so small as to be unnoticeable. I'm not surprised, because there is no physics reason for there to be an effect.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [runner66] [ In reply to ]
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You and me are basically the same swimmer.

For me, SPL is the symptom, not the disease. If the disease is swimming fast, then when I do, I have a low SPL. It's not the other way around.

Yesterday's warm-up started with a 300 free / 300 kick / 300 pull (with buoy). My 300 free was 5:24. My 300 pull was 4:59. No increase in effort. I was keeping it relaxed since the main set was a whole bunch of fast 50's. Thing is, I am always significantly faster with the buoy and my SPL drops 3-4 strokes from 25ish to 21/22ish when I use it. So, for me, it's all lower body drag. No matter what I do, no matter what I visualize ("swim downhill", "keep your head low", "float your legs") I still have a kick that hinders my performance.

I've dropped my repeatable, open turn, 100 scy from 2:20 to 1:40 mostly on fitness. I've resigned myself to the fact that I'll probably never get much faster until I find a coach who can stand on the deck and shock me when I have form breaks or watch me do technique drills and then correct me in real-time.

If there's a YouTube video, I've watched it. If there's a drill, I've tried it. And yet, here I am. Routinely smoked by the 10u in the lane next to me at the Y or the 75-year-old with cafeteria lady flaps and a shower cap.

P.S. - I run with a cadence of 175 to 185. I'd never tell a slower runner to pick up their cadence and they'll magically run faster. That's dumb. Telling a slow swimmer to reduce their SPL and they'll swim faster is just as dumb. There's lots more to the equation.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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DJRed wrote:
No matter what I do, no matter what I visualize ("swim downhill", "keep your head low", "float your legs") I still have a kick that hinders my performance.

Visualization isn't the answer. Using the correct muscles is the answer to keeping your legs at the surface.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
DJRed wrote:
No matter what I do, no matter what I visualize ("swim downhill", "keep your head low", "float your legs") I still have a kick that hinders my performance.


Visualization isn't the answer. Using the correct muscles is the answer to keeping your legs at the surface.


I understand that. But the way swimmers try to teach me to use the correct muscles is to "visualize" stuff. Or "try to feel like..." Or "imagine you are..."

What they are basically saying is "I've been swimming since 4 and I have no idea why I'm faster than you." My wife is a former college swimmer and she has no idea how to help me. I've asked her about her head position, her catch, her hip roll, her core engagement, all of it. She has no idea how to communicate what she does. She just does it.

When I teach a player to kick a soccer ball I can show them exactly where to place their non-kicking foot. I can show them what it means to "lock your ankle". I can show them the correct follow through.

What I do know is if I go from a 100 kick with a board to a freestyle swim, I am much faster - - presumably because the kicking puts my body in the right position. I just haven't / don't swim enough to make that muscle memory permanent.

But, none of it has to do with focusing on lowering my SPL.
Last edited by: DJRed: Apr 23, 17 11:08
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
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Kevin in MD wrote:
We need to figure out what about a person's stroke makes them take more strokes to get across the pool; and then fix whatever that is.


This is my not-a-swim-coach take as well.

Stroke count is a secondary indicator, not the main issue.

Similarly, if your car is overheating, punching out the "Engine Temp" warning light does not address the problem. The primary goal is not to make that light go off. But that doesn't mean you should ignore the warning light. Get your cooling system fixed, and the light will go off.

Taking the analogy one step more absurdist, don't use "Engine Temp" as your only indicator. Pay attention to the oil pressure and electrical indicators too. For swimming I think pace and RPE give good info as well as stroke count.
Last edited by: alathIN: Apr 23, 17 13:01
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
beachedbeluga wrote:
Please. Go try it. Watch the video I linked earlier. Tell me what happens.


I did exactly this in the morning swim workout. Raising my head while doing freestyle had absolutely no effect on the angle of my body in the water. No effect. My legs and hips were the same relative to the surface of the water. Even if raising my head lowered my body, the effect was so small as to be unnoticeable. I'm not surprised, because there is no physics reason for there to be an effect.

One of the big name-brand swim gurus - I think it's SwimSmooth.com - advises experimenting with head position and finding out what works for you.

Like you said above I am somewhat lacking in flexibility. When my head gets too low in the water, I start "plowing" the water an a way that is super-efficient at creating drag. All the coaches in my swim club have all commented on it. The thing is, it's not a direct effect of head position. It's when I tire, my upper back posture slumps and my head points down. I physically cannot fix this just by moving my head, but if I re-focus on my body posture it almost fixes itself. I'm definitely faster this way... but I am guessing the head position and "bow wave" is only part of what's going on.

Re, getting more flexibile. OK, this is a "flexibility improvement" that could go on the Pathetic Triathletes forum, it's so lame. But I started swimming as a 45 year old with essentially zero upper body flexibility. One stretch that is laughably easy for real swimmers but helped me was swimming on my back (backstroke kick) while extending my arms over my head with my forearms/wrists crossed over and my palms together. It's a good recovery between sets or cool-down at the end of a workout. It's helped my ability to get my shoulder blades back and closer together, and improve that "slumped" posture. So, no, I haven't gone from 45 year old inflexible man to 51 year old contortionist. But you can make small improvements, enough to help.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know why this is bothering me so much, but let's start out with the physics part:

More dense objects sink. If you increase the amount of mass above the center of gravity, it will sink. Since you mentioned physics, I am assume you are familiar with force diagrams.

By lifting your head, you are increasing the force on the body. So unless you have another force acting on your body keeping it up that is counteracting it, then your hips will sink.

If you don't like force diagrams, here is an anatomical drawing:

If you lift your head, for your hips to stay in the same position, you must be arching your back to keep them up. Again, you are exerting force to keep your hips up.

Now, if these don't convince you, or the videos don't convince you, I am wondering what machinations are going through your mind. Let's consider some questions:
1) If head position doesn't matter, why is it constant amongst the best swimmers? Or even competent swimmers?
2) If head position doesn't matter, why don't swimmers swim head up?
3) If head position doesn't matter, why do you immediately put your head back down after sighting?

I find it interesting that you said that you tried what I asked you to do while swimming. I told you to do it while floating. Or to do it kicking lightly. Just float, eyes down, then slowly lift your head. If you do it while swimming, you are going to compensate. Lifting your head will cause a degree or two drop in your hips. You may not notice it, but its there.

On a forum where people debate changes that will have less than ~1% changes, improving swim technique could have a significant, measurable impact on your swimming efficiency and speed. A neutral head position is listed as something to work on here, here, and lots of other places.

The internet is full of unicorns- people where reality doesn't apply to them. I guess you are the unicorn. But for the rest of you, keep a neutral head position. Eyes down, and look forward a little. It will help.

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [beachedbeluga] [ In reply to ]
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Next time, draw a complete force diagram. If you are just floating there, in that position with head down, then by definition your centre of mass must be at the same position as your centre of buoyancy.

lifting your head will shift your centre of buoyancy rearward, c of mass is unchanged, which will cause your legs to actually raise up, not lower, assuming that your muscles are making your body rigid and that you have positive overall buoyancy.

Try it, float facedown, arms by your side with a small pullbuoy to compensate for the rearward shift in centre of mass caused by the arms by your side (arms by your side to ensure you aren't sculling) and from that position raise your head out of the water as if to sight and see what happens.

This should demonstrate that the only way that you can raise your head and keep it up is by exerting a downward force on the water with your arms. It is that downward force that causes legs to sink, and/or a failure to get the centre of mass forward enough, not simply lifting the head.

If that doesn't convince you, imagine you are standing in the middle of a floating dock. It's level. Now walk to one edge. What happens to the edge you walked to and the opposite edge?

Btw, Ian Thorpe swam "eyes forward", just like we all did back in the 70's 80's and '90's. His times still stand up today.

This is Palteirini demonstrating why the lower head is actually beneficial (imo). Although he's looking down, the head isn't actually riding low in the water. But look how high his shoulders get.



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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Apr 24, 17 2:10
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [beachedbeluga] [ In reply to ]
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beachedbeluga wrote:
I don't know why this is bothering me so much, but let's start out with the physics part:

More dense objects sink. If you increase the amount of mass above the center of gravity, it will sink. Since you mentioned physics, I am assume you are familiar with force diagrams.

By lifting your head, you are increasing the force on the body. So unless you have another force acting on your body keeping it up that is counteracting it, then your hips will sink.

If you don't like force diagrams, here is an anatomical drawing:

If you lift your head, for your hips to stay in the same position, you must be arching your back to keep them up. Again, you are exerting force to keep your hips up.

Now, if these don't convince you, or the videos don't convince you, I am wondering what machinations are going through your mind. Let's consider some questions:
1) If head position doesn't matter, why is it constant amongst the best swimmers? Or even competent swimmers?
2) If head position doesn't matter, why don't swimmers swim head up?
3) If head position doesn't matter, why do you immediately put your head back down after sighting?

I find it interesting that you said that you tried what I asked you to do while swimming. I told you to do it while floating. Or to do it kicking lightly. Just float, eyes down, then slowly lift your head. If you do it while swimming, you are going to compensate. Lifting your head will cause a degree or two drop in your hips. You may not notice it, but its there.

On a forum where people debate changes that will have less than ~1% changes, improving swim technique could have a significant, measurable impact on your swimming efficiency and speed. A neutral head position is listed as something to work on here, here, and lots of other places.

The internet is full of unicorns- people where reality doesn't apply to them. I guess you are the unicorn. But for the rest of you, keep a neutral head position. Eyes down, and look forward a little. It will help.

In your free body diagram, you are missing two forces....thrust/propulsion and drag. Here is the interesting thing about the relationship between drag and lift. In some fluid dynamics situations, what seems like higher drag can result in better lift. You could have a higher drag contribution from one part of your body resulting in more lift overall, reducing the drag of the rest of the your body. That's the complex part of fluid dynamics, which is why you can't just isolate one drag contributor and assume everything else stays the same or also increases because of that. Furthermore, a higher drag contribution from one part of the body, MAY allow certain swimmers to apply more thrust/propulsion.

But for sure, if you can reduce overall drag while and increase propulsion it's a win. If you can keep the drag the same and increase propulsion its a win. I am with you on keeping the head down and hips up for most of us. Without seeing Ken, we can't know what is going on, but based on what he has posted about swimming on here, his results in races, and his swim speed vs what he can do in the other sports, it seems like he is getting the speed out of his body in swimming that his engine can deliver. Most of us on this forum aside from a few fish, have swim results that are inferior to what our engines give us on the bike and run.

I would not under estimate biomechanical limitations in athletes though. They are real and no amount of work for some will get them in the right theoretical body position. In my case with several neck and shoulder/upper body injuries, my swim speed really took a nose dive in my early 30's and was never able to get things back to where they were. Adding another head/neck injury in my mid 40's just made all that worse. Still working on it. I'm not about to give up though, but all this hurts me the most in freestyle. Fly, breast, back are less affected by my neck+shoulder limitations.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [runner66] [ In reply to ]
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not relative to your body. relative to the side of the pool.

i.e. if you are swimming next to a lane rope, your hand should exit the water at the same lane marker as it went in at. If you are really good, it can come out ahead of where it went in (due to the reach and kick)

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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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his FBD is assuming you are just floating, no force or propulsion. He's missing the rotational forces.

devashish_paul wrote:
beachedbeluga wrote:
I don't know why this is bothering me so much, but let's start out with the physics part:

More dense objects sink. If you increase the amount of mass above the center of gravity, it will sink. Since you mentioned physics, I am assume you are familiar with force diagrams.

By lifting your head, you are increasing the force on the body. So unless you have another force acting on your body keeping it up that is counteracting it, then your hips will sink.

If you don't like force diagrams, here is an anatomical drawing:

If you lift your head, for your hips to stay in the same position, you must be arching your back to keep them up. Again, you are exerting force to keep your hips up.

Now, if these don't convince you, or the videos don't convince you, I am wondering what machinations are going through your mind. Let's consider some questions:
1) If head position doesn't matter, why is it constant amongst the best swimmers? Or even competent swimmers?
2) If head position doesn't matter, why don't swimmers swim head up?
3) If head position doesn't matter, why do you immediately put your head back down after sighting?

I find it interesting that you said that you tried what I asked you to do while swimming. I told you to do it while floating. Or to do it kicking lightly. Just float, eyes down, then slowly lift your head. If you do it while swimming, you are going to compensate. Lifting your head will cause a degree or two drop in your hips. You may not notice it, but its there.

On a forum where people debate changes that will have less than ~1% changes, improving swim technique could have a significant, measurable impact on your swimming efficiency and speed. A neutral head position is listed as something to work on here, here, and lots of other places.

The internet is full of unicorns- people where reality doesn't apply to them. I guess you are the unicorn. But for the rest of you, keep a neutral head position. Eyes down, and look forward a little. It will help.


In your free body diagram, you are missing two forces....thrust/propulsion and drag. Here is the interesting thing about the relationship between drag and lift. In some fluid dynamics situations, what seems like higher drag can result in better lift. You could have a higher drag contribution from one part of your body resulting in more lift overall, reducing the drag of the rest of the your body. That's the complex part of fluid dynamics, which is why you can't just isolate one drag contributor and assume everything else stays the same or also increases because of that. Furthermore, a higher drag contribution from one part of the body, MAY allow certain swimmers to apply more thrust/propulsion.

But for sure, if you can reduce overall drag while and increase propulsion it's a win. If you can keep the drag the same and increase propulsion its a win. I am with you on keeping the head down and hips up for most of us. Without seeing Ken, we can't know what is going on, but based on what he has posted about swimming on here, his results in races, and his swim speed vs what he can do in the other sports, it seems like he is getting the speed out of his body in swimming that his engine can deliver. Most of us on this forum aside from a few fish, have swim results that are inferior to what our engines give us on the bike and run.

I would not under estimate biomechanical limitations in athletes though. They are real and no amount of work for some will get them in the right theoretical body position. In my case with several neck and shoulder/upper body injuries, my swim speed really took a nose dive in my early 30's and was never able to get things back to where they were. Adding another head/neck injury in my mid 40's just made all that worse. Still working on it. I'm not about to give up though, but all this hurts me the most in freestyle. Fly, breast, back are less affected by my neck+shoulder limitations.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
his FBD is assuming you are just floating, no force or propulsion. He's missing the rotational forces.

He's missing a lot more than that. He assumes that the body is like a seesaw with a fixed pivot, such that a force in one direction on one end necessarily results in a movement of the other end. Of course, there is no such fixed pivot in a human body in water. He also misses that when the buoyant force is reduced by lifting the head out of the water, that force acts on the center of buoyancy and not on one end of the body. Finally (maybe), he misses that the head is not lifted by pushing on the water; rather, it is lifted by contracting muscles that are attached to the head (thereby lifting the head) and are also attached to the back/shoulders/spine...thereby lifting that part of the body.

According to his model, if you were flexible enough, by lifting your head back far enough your body would start rotating in place.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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been struggling w this thread and hoping to add some clarification here. Dev you have had some great responses and this discussion is interesting. you and beached are both coming at this from different view points ie one is static (beached) and one is active (you). Certainly with your perspective there are many more "forces" being encountered.
However beached is struggling with his descriptions too.
Im no unicorn and will work hard to not offer soundbites bc i agree... too many of them.
The construction of ones "aquatic posture" is a critical to enhanced performance in the water (whatever that metric happens to be spl, velocity, effeciency etc). Our aquatic posture is quite different than our land based posture that we have been using for quite a while to hunt and gather and run like hell at times.
The (main) 4 components of our posture (land and water) are our hips, chest, head and what connects them, our spine. Just as we learned on land to manage these components from birth until we are upright and moving, we have to re-learn them in the aquatic environment.
On land you can "play" with these segments to become more athletic with them. Articulate them more. Connect/"feel" them more. IE sliding the head on jaw line or tilting, extending sternum forward and back, pelvic tilts to name a few. This will help when you lose solid land and are horizontal in the water.
The impact of gravity changes dramatically as well as we go from vertical on land to horizontal in the water and essentially add two more gravity lines. So an increased awareness and athleticism with these parts will help you to know your making changes.
But i felt this discussion could use some clarification on the key components we are discussing and taking a step back.

Thankfully, there is no ONE WAY to be in the water with posture. We ALL bring a different set of factors that impact this and a good coach will work with you to help you find the alignment and energy in the components based on your personal factors.

To use me as an example... im a sinker with virtually no real kick to speak of. So for me to think about DPS (a paradigm that supports physios more than it does swimmers) is not only a waste of time but actually is negative to my performance.

To continue to watch videos of the best in the world is such a useless exercise. Its fun! Dont get me wrong! I stared, jaw on the floor watching mr thorpe kick 100 meter repeats at the otc back in the day (without fins) on a 1:20 base doing like 1:08s. If we all had that kick...(and his high COM and low Den and ability to coordinate his kick w his rotation etc etc) then spl can def be an impressive metric to track!
daved
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [AG Tri Newbie] [ In reply to ]
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A four page thread on strokes per length and the only mention of stroke rate was as a typo? How fast you turnover is a far more important thing to focus on. You will almost certainly (adult onset) swim faster with increased stroke rate, and your SPL will go down as a result.

Something to play with is called "The Happy Medium" drill, though it's really more of an activity....

Repeat 25s or 50s on short rest at moderate speed
ODD - Maximum distance per stroke, not exceeding a 6 beat kick
EVEN - Maximum stroke rate, not exceeding a 2 beat kick.

Your ideal stroke rate is somewhere in the middle. Play.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [beachedbeluga] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the tips. This is my first year of triathlons and I have only been swimming since the beginning of the year. Little tips like this always seems to take about 5 seconds off my avg 100 yard time.
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [daved] [ In reply to ]
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daved wrote:
been struggling w this thread and hoping to add some clarification here. Dev you have had some great responses and this discussion is interesting. you and beached are both coming at this from different view points ie one is static (beached) and one is active (you). Certainly with your perspective there are many more "forces" being encountered.
However beached is struggling with his descriptions too.
Im no unicorn and will work hard to not offer soundbites bc i agree... too many of them.
The construction of ones "aquatic posture" is a critical to enhanced performance in the water (whatever that metric happens to be spl, velocity, effeciency etc). Our aquatic posture is quite different than our land based posture that we have been using for quite a while to hunt and gather and run like hell at times.
The (main) 4 components of our posture (land and water) are our hips, chest, head and what connects them, our spine. Just as we learned on land to manage these components from birth until we are upright and moving, we have to re-learn them in the aquatic environment.
On land you can "play" with these segments to become more athletic with them. Articulate them more. Connect/"feel" them more. IE sliding the head on jaw line or tilting, extending sternum forward and back, pelvic tilts to name a few. This will help when you lose solid land and are horizontal in the water.
The impact of gravity changes dramatically as well as we go from vertical on land to horizontal in the water and essentially add two more gravity lines. So an increased awareness and athleticism with these parts will help you to know your making changes.
But i felt this discussion could use some clarification on the key components we are discussing and taking a step back.

Thankfully, there is no ONE WAY to be in the water with posture. We ALL bring a different set of factors that impact this and a good coach will work with you to help you find the alignment and energy in the components based on your personal factors.

To use me as an example... im a sinker with virtually no real kick to speak of. So for me to think about DPS (a paradigm that supports physios more than it does swimmers) is not only a waste of time but actually is negative to my performance.

To continue to watch videos of the best in the world is such a useless exercise. Its fun! Dont get me wrong! I stared, jaw on the floor watching mr thorpe kick 100 meter repeats at the otc back in the day (without fins) on a 1:20 base doing like 1:08s. If we all had that kick...(and his high COM and low Den and ability to coordinate his kick w his rotation etc etc) then spl can def be an impressive metric to track!
daved

One thing I can share about aquatic posture and it was literally about my body "changing" from a land based beast to the required flexibility to turn as much as possible into a water based mammal. Last year, I changed my program from swimming around 200-250K per year (barely 6K per week), to 1200K. I basically averaged 100K per month. It meant spending more than 1 hour per day, every day of the year in the pool (I missed some days but had several 90-120 minute days too). In any case, what I noticed over time, is that my body's natural state on land changed a bit over the year just because of the repetition and flexibility that gets forced by spending so much time in the water. For example, if I take a large stability ball, I can now rest on my back and arch my spine at the cervical, thoracic and lumbar regions so that my hands and feet are in contact with the ground with my back arched. And I can rest there with zero "effort". There is no way I could do that last year. My natural desire was to crouch forward into an "aero position" I have enough flexibility in my shoulders and neck to swim fly reasonable well with large paddles. Last year at this time, I could barely generate enough cervical spine mobility to take a breath while doing fly. I find myself working on my "water posture" on dry land in all kinds of scenarios to the point that I don't even realize it. People at work think I am crazy, but I don't care and I use the excuse of recovering from a disk injury.

There is a lot of work to get your body into the config of the image below. It basically took me over a year to transform small areas of flexibility in my body to push it off. It's not one part of the body, but more small changes in the entire chain. I'm there now and can 'ride the wave' in the water and keep a streamline.


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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Next time, draw a complete force diagram. If you are just floating there, in that position with head down, then by definition your centre of mass must be at the same position as your centre of buoyancy.
lifting your head will shift your centre of buoyancy rearward, c of mass is unchanged, which will cause your legs to actually raise up, not lower, assuming that your muscles are making your body rigid and that you have positive overall buoyancy.
Try it, float facedown, arms by your side with a small pullbuoy to compensate for the rearward shift in centre of mass caused by the arms by your side (arms by your side to ensure you aren't sculling) and from that position raise your head out of the water as if to sight and see what happens.
This should demonstrate that the only way that you can raise your head and keep it up is by exerting a downward force on the water with your arms. It is that downward force that causes legs to sink, and/or a failure to get the centre of mass forward enough, not simply lifting the head.
If that doesn't convince you, imagine you are standing in the middle of a floating dock. It's level. Now walk to one edge. What happens to the edge you walked to and the opposite edge?
Btw, Ian Thorpe swam "eyes forward", just like we all did back in the 70's 80's and '90's. His times still stand up today.
This is Palteirini demonstrating why the lower head is actually beneficial (imo). Although he's looking down, the head isn't actually riding low in the water. But look how high his shoulders get.


It's just amazing to me how fricking incredibly fast Palt is turning over during that entire 1500 meters; he's turning over like i would in an all-out 50 or 100 but sustaining it for 1500. I guess that's why he's the WR holder and I'm just a no-name masters swimmer. Also, it would be interesting to see him and Clark Smith swim side by side, since Clark has a much slower turnover rate but swims roughly same speed. Clark is 6'9" vs Palt at 6'3" but I *think* their diff in stroke rate is greater than their relative diff in height.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Number of strokes per length (25 yds)? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:


It's just amazing to me how fricking incredibly fast Palt is turning over during that entire 1500 meters; he's turning over like i would in an all-out 50 or 100 but sustaining it for 1500. I guess that's why he's the WR holder and I'm just a no-name masters swimmer. Also, it would be interesting to see him and Clark Smith swim side by side, since Clark has a much slower turnover rate but swims roughly same speed. Clark is 6'9" vs Palt at 6'3" but I *think* their diff in stroke rate is greater than their relative diff in height.



Yeah, Paltrineiri pretty much sprints a 1500. I like this video which has Ryan Cochrane, with a good "middle of the road" example of SPM vs DPS, with Sun Yang, the ultimate low SPM/high DPS distance swimmer on one side, and Paltrinieri with his insane-for-a-1500 SPM style on the other.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe5lLJKSU-o

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Apr 25, 17 11:20
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