That really is a fine line-up of carbon. Kudos to the three of you for making this happen.

---

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

The Felt wins the beauty contest for me! Strangely I don't totally hate the Diamondhumpback quite so much in black.

Looking forward to it, what time do you guys kick off? I'm assuming EDT, so I'm hoping to be able to catch some of this while I'm still at work this afternoon (UK). Hope it all runs smoothly for you.

No pictures of you and BryanD spooning?!

---

blog

On the way to the tunnel now

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Kiley is getting set up on the Felt B2. 1st run is Kylie on the bike. Pictures coming soon.

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I'm -guessing- Kiley's Diamondback is more pleasing to look at for most (me included) because it doesn't have all that extra storage box stuff in the stem area that Diamondback advertises it with.

Agreed. Kiley's setup plays a big role, but the color helps too.

---

My YouTubes

Is it strange that I wish we had a live feed camera?....

Not at all. I was going to ask if they were going to do any "live" feeds on FB or something else.

---

My YouTubes

We are working on some social media stuff. I'll show it soon.

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Email customer service!

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Go here for photos, live videos, etc. https://www.facebook.com/...amp-351344665263968/

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Cervelo P5-X up next!

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

How's Kiley's #'s look on the Felt?

---

My YouTubes

0.22 about. No other numbers will be disclosed now

I didn't even think we'd get that. Thanks for sharing.

---

My YouTubes

Premier Tactical up now instead of the P5-X

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

P5-X is going next

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Good luck Bryan! ;)

Keep in mind this exercise is in no way to optimize aero and CdA. Decisions were made to standardize variables across equipment. I am actually a bit higher on the stack here because we couldn't get the P5 as low as I wanted, so we brought everything else up slightly. Kit might also be slow but it has less potential for wrinkling than sleeved.

Stay tuned. Results looks very very consistent at zero yaw. I am holding still like my race depends on it.

If you haven't already, please share the social media or throw in a few bucks. We have already hit some impossible to predict snags in equipment that have robbed us of time. Who knew the thru axle threads were different between Andean and P5-X? I mean really, guys?

I was just curious as to your numbers based off your position (it looked pretty good based off what I saw). FWIW, I think my baseline was ~0.22 range too. I was a little high when I went in too. I know it was the briefest of rides, but how'd the drop on the DA feel compared to your setup(s)?

---

My YouTubes

Just kicked in a modest donation, hope the day goes well without too many glitches!

Kiley is on the P5-X right now

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

kicked in as well. good luck and stay still Kiley! Watching the process is a geeks dream - I'm getting nothing done at work.

Thru axles...<smh>...

Good luck today!

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Contribution made. Hope all goes well.

P5 is up next

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

"Who knew the thru axle threads were different between Andean and P5-X?"

me? but i take your point.

i'm getting an exploro, and as i recall this bike is 15mm front thru axle and 12mm rear. which is kinda weird. i commenced a thread some weeks back on thru axle adapters so that i could use various wheels on various bikes. it's a real bitch, that's for sure!

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The amazing thing is that a 12x142 rear thru axle may have a different thread from frame to frame, and on forks it is a total shit show on what TA works with what fork. I love how loosely the bike industry uses the term "standard"

---

Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes

+2 and makes it easier for the consumer to find replacement items when needed.

Can I just say, Dan, that after all the furore over this the last couple of weeks, good on you for not only making this thread a sticky but also contributing in a positive, friendly and constructive manner. We're all going to benefit from this (whether in real terms from the data gained or purely from an entertainment perspective) and you've shown yourself in a great light for letting this go ahead, in this manner, on the forum.

So, again, thank you.

Of what you've shot/run so far the P5 "looks" the fastest.

---

My YouTubes

Random question...are you wearing a watch? Was that intentional?

no one wants to guess which will win?

Dan, how about a poll? at 0 yaw + rider on, which bike will test fastest***********?







***********caveats may apply

---

----
@adamwfurlong

he wears a watch when he races.
Remember this test is set up for how Kiley races

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Yes. That's how he races.

---

"One Line Robert"

P5
Tactical
Andean
P5-X
Ventum
B2

Let's se how I do. My guess is that they are within 15 watts from first to worst and the top 3 are within 5 watts.

ETA: Results are at 0-5 watts with the bikes with sails (Andean/P5-X/Ventum) doing better at higher yaws.

---

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Ex-cyclist and I are also posting pics on IG and twitter

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Tactical...i hope. How cool would that be that the most ecomomical bike is also the fastest?

---

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

Not to mention that TA on a rear is just silly. The ONLY reason a TA rear needs to be 142mm wide is to gain back the locating feature eliminated by getting rid of the axle dropout. It's not any "stiffer" either. Madness.

And TAs on the front don't really solve any problem that large axle cap faces and a forwarding facing dropout wouldn't solve with a regular QR.

"Shit show" is a good phrase for all of it...change just for the sake of change.

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I posted my guesses on p. 1 of the other thread.

---

-------------------
Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

1) Ventum
2) Andean/P5X virtual tie
3) P5
4) Tactical
5) B2

The entire spread is ~10w.

Out at 10 degrees I'd guess

1) Ventum
2) Andean
3) P5x
4) P5
5) Tactical
6) B2

Entire spread is...maybe 15w.

Diamondback Andean is up next

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

1. Ventum
2. P5
3. Andean
4. Tactical
5. B2
6. P5X

P5
Andean
Ventum
Tactical
P5x
B2

First 3 very close, unsure about the tactical, wider spreads on the x and b2

---

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Going with order of testing (1st bikes test faster) even though I don't believe in reality it would be accurate....
Keeping a good position during all that can be a bitch...and that's an understatement.

"good on you for not only making this thread a sticky but also contributing in a positive, friendly and constructive manner"

thanks for saying so, but my intent was always to contribute to in a positive, friendly and constructive manner. i don't think my stipulations were over-burdensome. i'm much more comfortable with kileyay - and his current demeanor - in charge of this test than i would have been with publiusvalerius - and his demeanor - in charge of this test. so far, so good.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

what don't we know yet? that would be meaningful? if anything? and i'll put up a poll on that.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Only if you have a crappy position. If there's one thing I've learned from field testing (and being in a wind tunnel) is that a GOOD TT/Tri position is very repeatable/"hold-able", especially as compared to road positions. With a good TT/Tri position, you should be basically "locked in"...if you're not, it's not a good position.

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

i was just suggesting we might run a poll to see which bike everyone thinks will "win". and then see how smart all us smart-asses are.

---

----
@adamwfurlong

what do you think of what i have up there now?

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"a GOOD TT/Tri position is very repeatable/"hold-able", especially as compared to road positions. With a good TT/Tri position, you should be basically "locked in""

you're right. i agree. that's why i've always relied more on motion capture body angles in tri fits than i have with the more fungible road positions.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Ventum is up next

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Pretty good poll. At the end of the day, I think the differences will be marginal - then its fit range and cost for most athletes. I'm hoping this just eases the voice in the back of my head telling me I need a new bike.....please shut up now!

Really hoping for a good showing from the Felt.

BeIng on a P3 classic, a good result for the old tech in this shootout will go a long way in helping me putt off any thought of upgrading.

i added an addendum: not counting margin of error. my vote is 6-10w, but i think my vote would be 0-5w if the margin of error was applied.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Judging by the videos on FB, it seems like the Andean cadence was much lower than the others. He could have been spinning up to power before the test. Was cadence (and power for that matter) standardized across the runs?

What with boost etc thru axles van be a bit of a mine field!

great way of phrasing it, since i think that really gets to the core of what we are (or at least what I am) most interested in!

---

----
@adamwfurlong

I asked this on instagram....why doesn't the ventum have that big ass straw sticking out of the built in hydration? Seems like that should be required if the other bikes have bta bottles on them.

Good job pulling all this together!!

P5x appears to be moving around more during the test than others. Could this be because of the thru axle issue?

Also I agree about lower cadence on Andean. What's target cadence? Do you have a head unit to monitor?

---

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

At 0 yaw:

1: ventum
2: P5
3: Andean
4: P5x
5: B2
6: tactical (space between down tube and front wheel...)

Spread 8 watts

At 10 degrees

1: ventum
2: Andean
3: P5x
4: P5
5: B2
6: tactical

Spread 15 watts

---

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

The lower cadence is from me taking video as the fans were turning on.

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Cool, thx

---

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

 



BryanD can't hang with all the excitement. Someone needed a nap!

#naptime

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I want the Felt to win so badly that it hurts.

Exactly. I am hoping that a good older style frame that is optimized will be close.

How long are you expecting it takes to publish the results of the test?

---

--Chris

On the TRS interview he said 4-6 weeks.

I'm pretty sure you guys are the first ones to have your hands on the premier bike, What were your thoughts on the bike itself other than the tunnel results? Quality, look, feel, etc.

Well said. This is the essence of my fit and my fit business

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I wanted to thank everyone that participated in the testing today and in the days/weeks leading up to the test. A2 did a great job, Kiely worked hard getting all the bikes lined up and then held a great position for hours on end. Really nice work.

With a combination of owners, operators, independent protocol, Herbert (slowtwitch) and some dedicated individuals overseeing the testing ..... it was very well done.

There were very small differences based mainly on design- but every metric that could be equalized was. Most within 1-2mm.

Great spending two days with Jimmy from Ventum.... I learned a lot from him.

The bikes are all great bikes. We have great data with notes and comments for evaluation. I'm really proud to have been included and look forward to a clean clear white paper outing the results.

For everyone that contributed .... money well spent.

---

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

Did Pubes just get Slowtwitch to pay for him to find his fastest optimized set up?

---

Internet User

not really - a lot of things are controlled for consistency (i.e. fit), whereas optimizing his fit would have meant picking one bike and then tinkering with adjustments to equipment and fit.

---

----
@adamwfurlong

Then I do not understand the point of the watch. Seems an unnecessary variable.

---

Internet User

Nope, he actually changed his fit (raised the front I think) so it would match the other bikes.

---

Team Zoot - Great Lakes

Does it really matter, as long as he used the watch on all the bikes?

It's ok to be jealous.

He got slowtwitch to pay for him to find the fastest bike with his current fit coordinates and race setup.

Does that make more sense?

And even then he had to raise all the bikes stack just to even the playing field for the p5.

---

blog

How many non-draft triathletes do you know that don't wear watches racing? Just sayin.

---

-------------------
Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

Did you guys get the right size? I thought I remembered reading that some modifications were needed.

---

"America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed." -Eleanor Roosevelt, 1936

We had to cut some bits & pieces to make the bike work. Needed additional funding to ensure this bike would be able to still be sold.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

My understanding is that TAs make placement of the rotor within the caliper more consistent so your disc brakes aren't as finicky :-). A must have for your new disc TT bike (tongue heavily planted in cheek)!

I understand the tongue-in-cheek...but, I just have to say that I've got a couple of QR equipped disc bikes and have NEVER had a problem with rotor placement in the caliper. Especially not on the rears, nor on the one with forward facing fork dropouts.

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Who won? We don't know who won. We won't know who won for some time, or by how much, or what it means -- we did a huge amount of runs and the interpretation task is daunting.

This has been an enormous undertaking and I am derelict in my professional, personal, and athletic duties from all the time and mind share and stress I have devoted to this effort especially in the last 10 days. Simply exhausted.

It's going to take time to get this together guys. I'm sorry. We are going to do this right and likely hand off the data anonymized to some quants with these kinds of chops. If they agree. If they don't, I will get us there with help from Brian and Heath and other advisers. It just won't be in R.

Let me thank a few people as well, many of whom also put sweat and tears into this and some of whom will continue to as we develop the report. Thanks to:

-All if you who donated and shared and followed and commented.
-Brian Stover/desert dude and Heath Dotson/ex-cyclist for putting together and outstanding AeroCamp Aero Shootout and taking charge of the protocol. You all should want to work with these guys -- trust me.
-The guys from A2 for dealing with head aches that this stupidly ambitious project required. Very pro operators.
-Dan Kennison/dkennison from Tactical and Jimmy Seear from Ventum for both providing equipment, attending, wrenching and so much more. DK in particular for taking down many measurements and for facing down the nightmare of last minute assembly with me and BryanD. And don't worry several people verified those key measurements.
-BryanD, Cid, and Mark from Inside Out Sports North Carolina for P5-X
-Dave Luscan from All3Sports Atlanta for P5
-Diamondback for getting me the damn bike in time, and for advising on protocol.
-So many others whom I will credit in the report.

It is early yet but I am happy with the integrity of the results. I think the controls showed strong consistency in the position. I think we did it right. I think we had the right hands on deck and the proper protocol and all that.

Thanks again everyone. I'll try to answer questions here in the coming hours and days.

I forgot to say. These are all great bikes. They are all fast bikes. They are all engineering marvels. Grateful to have seen them all and wrenched them and ridden them.

I have bones to pick with all of them too. And don't worry, I will. With respect mostly.

If the watt difference comes in as low as some people are predicting... Does that mean that i will be able to go back to buying my bike frame based on weight, looks, and cost rather than perceived aeroness?

I no longer wear a watch for long course triathlon. Just causes drag on swim and bike. No issue putting it on as you run out of transition.

I agree with you there.

My Garmin might take 60-90" to find the satellite though. And that means no data for the first stage of the run and and three extra steps during the footrace (1. put on the watch 2. start seeking the satellite 3. hitting start when it finds the satellite). I suppose one can lock in the satellite pre-race and refind it during the run which would speed up the seek time. But still requires the three steps.

I've seen a few pros grab their watches in T2 but see far more wearing them the entire race.

---

-------------------
Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

Tangential, but that seems like a really strange decision. We've just all postulated that the difference between a 15000 P5x and an 8 year old B2 is maybe <15w and you think your WATCH is worth chucking because it causes...too much drag?

Weird.

Either that, or the really good frames are just that good. But look at what I wrote about the gennix. That kind of thing adds another dimension to the decision.

That said, my view since 1989 has not changed: how comfortable, powerful, and aero YOU are on the frame trumps how aero the bike alone is.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I just start it right away whether it has satellite or not. That way you have the correct time split. My watch usually grabs it right away though. But still, you will be running on feel anyway and just verifying pace with the watch. No biggie if you don't have accurate pace for the first couple minutes in worse case scenario.

How is the watch making me faster on the swim or the bike?

Pictures and some details on the home page

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...bike_test__6309.html

I just start my watch before the race start, although I never do any races that would get anywhere close to using up all of the battery.

It's very possible that video was taken when I was simply warming up for the run. Or at the very beginning of the test, like you say.

Cadence and power weren't standardized across the board -- at least, not really. I never saw any numbers on that either. I was told to ride in the manner that allowed me to be most still, which I did. Sometimes that was easier and sometimes that was a little harder, much like you would on any ride. I think it was relatively consistent and at the right intensity.

The hardest part was keeping the head very still, and the second hardest part was not moving around on the saddle at all. Sometimes you want to readjust for a second, you know? Not okay here.

Cleva' gherl
It's my best jurassic park typing impersonation.

Not an issue of the thru axle. We have video from behind that shoes the thru axle completely still. The frame itself is flexing while affixed. You can see it flex relative to the rear wheel. It's not a huge deal -- I did notice I was moving more, but it wasn't anything crazy; in fact, I actually thought I was just really anxious from losing all the time fashioning the new pieces for the thru axle.

In retrospect, I think I would notice it in a controlled environment, like on a trainer, and frankly I can't say that I would feel all that comfortable riding that bike on a rear-axle fixed trainer, and not because of product integrity reasons but just because I wouldn't want to be moving side to side that much while making watts.


Target cadence is comfortable cadence. For me it's usually around 95-100rpm at that level of intensity. No head unit.

Was there any Pubes style banter in the windtunnel, or did they only get Kiley show up there?

Pubes tried to show up but we told him he had to leave

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Absolutely Dev. The real life fusion of kileyay and PubliusValerius showed up to the tunnel and did a fair amount of shit talking and a lot of just the opposite. The truth is somewhere in between those two, and depending on the circumstance, you may very well get both.

I have a lot of thoughts on this. I would like to write up more of it, but I just don't see having the time in the near future so I'll lay it out here

I am really surprised at how much I like it. It's one of those bikes whose maker obviously sweated all the details. It's just really well conceived. Everything was thought through painstakingly, and it designed for you, for us, and by that I mean not for triathletes but for slowtwitchers who also sweat the details; who want all out aero; who want functionality; and who want ease of ownership.

The base bar and whole front end is impressive as shit. The bar, though, looks like the Ventus II married the Speed Concept. It looks amazing, and it's as sturdy as they come. What I don't like so much is that you can't get multiple extension shapes (which could potentially impact aero on an individual basis) and that there isn't a good way to mount a regular BTA bottle (like bosses on the stem, or a plate between the pads, or whatever). The company recommends a Profile Design hydration system, but I've never loved those things you can refill and such. I just like round bottles. YMMV

There is no steerer, which is a crazy innovation. I don't know or understand exactly how it works, but I'm told it's easy.

The entire rear wheel is shrouded in an effort to clean up the air flow into the tires/tracks around there. Is it fast? I don't know, but this design supposedly tested fast on this bicycle.

The brakes are fine. They are going to stop the bike.

Everything is custom made for this bike. The seatpost clamp. The dropout style. The Speedbox things off the back, which are different for every size to map nicely to the top tube. The attention to detail is...well, it's not something you normally see in these types of products.

Besides all of that, in my opinion the case is genius -- it's just a leap forward in case design if you're okay traveling with a large case (I'm not, by the way, because I don't believe the airlines won't screw me).

There are some downsides:

The graphics aren't good. They aren't attractive -- or they aren't to me. The matte finish isn't terrible and it isn't great. I wish I didn't but I care about the looks of these bikes and I would struggle to be happy with this bike from the outset, as seen, with its current graphical design. I would get it custom painted if I bought it.

The caveat to all this is that I have no idea if it's a quality product. I didn't even ride it outside.

I think the community is going to get more from this testing than I got from it. That's all I can say for now.

"There is no steerer, which is a crazy innovation. I don't know or understand exactly how it works, but I'm told it's easy."

it's easy.

when the bike was here at the compound, we had some trouble with it, but it was just the lack of a centering ring that fit correctly. i found it curious that the factory didn't recognize this but it was a simple fix.

"The brakes are fine. They are going to stop the bike."

the brakes are a tririg homage. i'm sure if you're tririg the brakes are a tririg ripoff. but it's like all the speed box copies on so many tri bikes. good ideas get copied, good designs get copied. the tririg is a brilliant design and dan could not have picked a better brake to emulate for his bike.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Great job and thank you for doing this test! Looking forward to the results, ultimately, I think I'll just be happy with my Speed Concept Gen 2. But these bikes all look awesome.

Wondering if you took into account different body's and positions? Looks like the tester is pretty fit and a top AGer, but curious how they bikes would perform at "normal" AG bike speeds and someone more upright, etc..

Thanks!

kileyay wrote:

What I don't like so much is that you can't get multiple extension shapes (which could potentially impact aero on an individual basis) and that there isn't a good way to mount a regular BTA bottle (like bosses on the stem, or a plate between the pads, or whatever).

I picked up on that watching the facebook feeds come in, or more's the point what I picked up on was that your hands appeared lower relative to your elbows on the Tactical. That's the one thing that worries me with that bike, and I'm guessing with the proprietary steerer-less assembly that you can't just whack your own bars on there? I did wonder if it was possible to tilt the extensions; when I checked out the exploded view on the premier web page there are a couple of spacers shown which look like they might accomodate that (item #1 on the lower diagram)?

https://www.premierholding.org/.../bike-geometry-chart

The guy you replied to (kileyay) was the tester. He was the only tester and the positions were the same across all bikes. You start throwing more testers and different positions, you come away with data that you can't compare and is essentially useless for anyone else (unless you do it on every single bike which would take a lot of more time and $$$$).

---

blog

It appears the extension set up is the same as that of the Pro Missile Evo bars. Ovular extensions pinned between the arm pads and the bars with two semi-circle friction spacers. As such, I don't think angling is possible, though I'm sure Dan can chime in.

I thought Dan had posted on here awhile back that he was working on a bta mount.

Overall sounds like you were very pleased, I'll look forward to the aero results.

Even though I'm 6'10 and doubt this bike would ever fit me, it sure is an intriguing option. Even in the pictures I'll have to agree with you about the graphics, but I kinda like that about it. I wish more bike companies offered a nude frame.

All good, looking forward to results.

---

Internet User

Nice to read a review of this bike. I've been very interested in it since it was announced.

The BTA and extension issue may be solved by new add-on components later on. I don't see those a deal breaker.

I agree on the paint job and the graphics though. I have sent Dan a mockup of a paint job I think suits the bike better, and have commented here and other places on his graphics, particularly the logo and it's stylistic treatment. I said it before here on ST, I think the use of a traditional serif typeface for a sports product is completely wrong. A serif could be used, but carefully selected and likely modified. Further, the blue just does not play well with black - in order for blue to work well with black on this kind of product, it requires much higher contrast, so a lighter, less "default Photoshop blue" blue would work far better. This is the biggest issue I have with the bike and is a deal breaker for me. I want to lust after it, not reason with myself about why it's cool.

---

Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer

Agree on all that. You could get it custom painted but by then the frameset is around the same cost as a Speed Concept, which I think is a much safer bike to spend that much money on. We can all implicitly trust Trek, which I can't say about Premier -- for a full bike.

The chain I trust. The chain I will buy for every bike I own. That's a no brainer. Others think so too as they are supposedly flying off the shelves

I'm beginning to think the same thing.

We have added a tilt spacer for those that want more tilt.

Edit:

Just had a chance to read some more posts. The stem cover is alloy, it can be drilled and tapped for a BTA. Because the FC-35 works so well from an aero perspective on this bike - that is what we recommend; however some people like a BTA and we are happy to accommodate that.

I agree that our "Paint - Decal" look could be better and we will work on that. I just don't want our customers to be moving billboards for us. I believe companies put their names in too many places and over these bikes and it is not pleasing to me. Again, we concentrated on performance first - better look to follow :-) I promise.

The issue Dan E talked about on the stem was an omission of the centering ring for the bike that we airship out to meet the November Wind Tunnel and velodrome testing date. It was just an oversight in the rush to get the bike from Taiwan to California and Dan E was quick to identify it. No issue.

We will be coming out with additional extension options that can be a swapped out for the current extensions.

As an aside - I tried Jens trick "bought a first class ticket" (+$150) round trip and again had no charge on transporting the bike in the hard travel case to and from NC from Chicago.

Nice view from the front of the plane for a change :-)

---

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

I think it is funny that you never had your helmet off and it just added to the mystic of Kileyay/Pubes. lol

I am very excited to see how the FELT compared. Having a modified P2C which I do feel is still very aero, I would like to see how your FELT compared.

 
is it possible to set that bike up UCI legal?

Dan,

Not sure I got to tell you this before you left yesterday but I'm very impressed by all the little things you've done with the Premier.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I just wanted to throw it out there that I love this project, it's like a jab in the eye to all the so called research these companies feed us and expect everyone to blindly believe. Extra kudos to the manufacturers who showed up and put their best foot forward, that takes balls IMO.

Special thanks to all who participated and made this happen, I'd love to see a similar test done with a MOP athlete. But thanks again to all who participated in and made this possible!

The bike can not be set up UCI legal.


I copied my earlier post and edit to include most of the additional information here.


We have added a tilt spacer for those that want more tilt.

Just had a chance to read some more posts. The stem cover is alloy, it can be drilled and tapped for a BTA. Because the FC-35 works so well from an aero perspective on this bike - that is what we recommend; however some people like a BTA and we are happy to accommodate that.

I agree that our "Paint - Decal" look could be better and we will work on that. I just don't want our customers to be moving billboards for us. I believe companies put their names in too many places and over these bikes and it is not pleasing to me. Again, we concentrated on performance first - better look to follow :-) I promise.

The issue Dan E talked about on the stem was an omission of the centering ring for the bike that we airship out to meet the November Wind Tunnel and velodrome testing date. It was just an oversight in the rush to get the bike from Taiwan to California and Dan E was quick to identify it. No issue.

We will be coming out with additional extension options that can be a swapped out for the current extensions.

As an aside - I tried Jens trick "bought a first class ticket" (+$150) round trip and again had no charge on transporting the bike in the hard travel case to and from NC from Chicago.

Nice view from the front of the plane for a change :-)

---

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

"it's like a jab in the eye to all the so called research these companies feed us and expect everyone to blindly believe."

second time i've read this today. what if it turns out that this test confirms the "research these companies feed us"?

what is it you're asking for? i've seen cervelo bashed today for not giving us enough research on its P5X. now it's a company that is "feeding us research"?

you guys want to tell me what your expectations are here? because i'm getting whiplash.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I expect that all the bikes will be so close that it doesn't matter, for me anyway. In which case I will do as I always have, get the best looking option :)

---

--Chris

The curious things I'm wondering.

A) what watts difference is acceptable to being the "difference"...IE is 5w enough to announce that A is clearly better than B, C and D. Or is it so "close" that it becomes a political term, "too close to call". So I guess I'm asking yes you can name a winner as the "faster" bike, but I'm also wondering, is there a threshold allowance that we can legitly say....these bikes are all very close and thus buy what you want/like/feel comfortable on, etc. Or is 3w difference enough to say, this is clearly the fastest bike after this particular protocol testing.

B) IF it turns out that at this particular testing all the bikes are fairly even, does it validate the claims by each bike manufactor? Does it devalue what they are putting out to the public?

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

In the spirit of this crowd-sourced effort (awesome work BTW) why not put a design contest out to the tri community? Maybe offer up a frame set for the winning design...

 
5 pages of responses and no actual data.

I'll bet each of the following would make a much bigger difference than which of these frames you use:

1) Your position on the bike
2) The discipline of your position on the bike (I see so many people in races with great positions, who inadvertently splay their knees way out or periscope their head so bad that they may as well ride in a road position)
3) Your clothing
4) How your tires match your wheels
5) The stupid race number flapping around
6) The rolling resistance of your tires
7) Powercranks
....

---

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

You will get data when the data is ready

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

"is there a threshold allowance that we can legitly say....these bikes are all very close and thus buy what you want/like/feel comfortable on, etc."

yes. in my opinion. in my experience every company has its own style or set of imperatives when it tests. i promise you that if these same guys did this test, same test, day after tomorrow, then any bikes within 5w of each other are liable to swap places. it should also be remembered that with the exception of the specialized tunnel all these tunnels used in the bike industry were designed to test large objects traveling from 200mph to 500mph. remember, these tests were conducted at 30mph so that you could actually ferret out the differences. were they conducted at 24mph all these bikes would have tested the same. it's my guess they all tested very closely anyway, even at 30mph.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

That's actually not true about A2; I think you're thinking of Aerodyn.

That will not be for several weeks either.

Everyone is traveling back yesterday & today and we are currently running more testing on tires/wheels and other people today.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Brian, if you get a second, could you elaborate a bit on this? I'm planning to buy a Tactical as soon as I'm able to (code for "get spousal approval"), but would love to know more specifically about what items you were impressed with in particular. Thanks for all the work during the testing and lead-up as well-

This is why we have error bars. I agree with Dan.

I think a more interesting question is this: what are consumers willing to spend per watt, or what watts threshold is sufficient to convince them to switch bikes or make their purchase? Would you pay $1000 extra for 10 watts? What about 10 watts with error bars representing say +/- 5 watts?

One of the things I want to do -- and I know this has been done before but not in this way -- is give the watts per dollar context for these frames. My guess is that that watts per dollar context will all over the map.

What clip on are you using on the diamondback? looks like a PD with Zipp extensions?

The stem is Andean proprietary. The bar is stock Corsair. The cups and pads are Profile Design. The extensions are modified Zipp Evo 110 Carbons. The junction box is inside the stem, and you can barely see a cable the way I ran it. It's clean and I like it a lot.

So have you decided to keep the Andean?

---

blog

I think what he wrote above might imply he's keeping the Felt ;-)

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

you would know better than i. the A2 tunnel looks pretty good sized to me. but i haven't been there. i know you can put a full scale nascar vehicle in aerodyne, but i thought the A2 tunnel also accommodates these.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I am selling the Andean and the Felt and buying the Tactical. But it's going to be quite a bit before I can get the right Tactical. Before I do:

-I need either the XS size that is in development or a post option that is far steeper. The way I run my saddle -- the stock post is such that I can't run the BTS bottle setup that tested close to neutral. I could only run the one that costs me half a dozen watts.
-Sexy design work on the frame
-Extension options
-Pad and cup options

At this point I have wrenched on or owned nearly every major bike, and the only one close to the impressiveness of the design of the Tactical is the Speed Concept. SC is better right now. It just is the best bike. But I don't have a relationship with a Trek dealer -- Carl is my Trek dealer and I'm all out of favors. And I think the brakes are a PIA.

By the way, this all has nothing to do with the test. I knew that the Tactical was my next bike the night before the test.

My reasons for selling the Andean were also formed prior to the test. I'm writing a review of the product, but my review will validate Tom A. I don't want disc brakes on a TT bike. Not now. Not ever. As long as Trek or Premier make a bike that brakes at the fucking rim, I'll be on rim brakes. You guys go buy what you want. I'm not following you off this cliff.

Do you think it might be cable pull and the levers? Might hydro solve that issue? That Diamondback stopped worse than the DA with CF wheels. I even looked at the rotors to see if they were still virgin.

Regardless, I am with you and Tom on this one.

---

My YouTubes

Well it's a great value. disc, front race wheel, optimized chain for racing, travel case, the bars don't require removing 12 or more screws to change things around like some bars from other brands used to. It's just a well thought out package when it comes to that stuff. There really isn't anything I'd change out of the box. There aren't many, if any super bikes/fast bikes off the top of my head, except the Felt IA's 14 16 (which ever are the top end ones) that I can say that about until now. The one thing I'd change is adding in the dual side power meter. That is one upgrade I wouldn't fail to make personally

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

 
I think a more interesting question is this: what are consumers willing to spend per watt, or what watts threshold is sufficient to convince them to switch bikes or make their purchase?

------

What percentage of consumer do you think this question applies to?

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Hydro will make my issues worse. I will explain more later I swear

I forgot about the Canyon, which may be in the same league I just don't know because I have never even seen the thing up close

Awesome. Glad the worked. Now if you repeat a bunch of times, you can get the United Global Services experience, which I can also recommend highly. ;-)

---

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Had a feeling this would be the case. Cool stuff.

And I agree with you on the trek (besides the brakes). It's got everything you need to race a sprint or an ironman while having a very fast setup. Every time I think about a new bike, there isn't a bike that beats it IMO and I end up back at the sc. I'll be keeping mine until something better comes out..... which could be a while.

---

blog

Wait? So are you saying that adding disc brakes to ANY bike doesn't make it automatically better?...Who knew?? ;-)

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

In my view of triathlon social dynamics, it's probably half and here is why. Those of us here, and the pros who ALL lurk here -- females excepted -- are leaders in triathlon consumerism. We are early adopters. And we win races -- we cover ground fast. The others who are riding bikes that cost $2k+ likes what we like, and what we like is speed. So by the transitive property...

the reason you see P5s and disc wheels in MOP is because they see them in the pro and profamateur ranks. The reason those Rigs have so many gels and and round bottles and bananas on the bike is because knowledge about such things isn't well known by them. They carry all that shit in that way because they don't know. If they didn't care they wouldn't buy these expensive bikes that promise to be simply faster -- those they see the local KQ athlete ride.

Wow I got off topic here. Need moar sleep

Agree on all points except the IAx, which is in every way inferior to the Tactical including aero

The Andean did not have hydro disc brakes and according to Kiley braked pretty terribly in the parking lot of the hotel.

Is it true buyers have to sign some form of indemnity waiver when they purchase a Tactical bike?
Never mind, I see a thread about it.

---

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

OK...so the point stands. Discs, in and of themselves, don't necessarily make for good braking performance...well, duh.

Unlike what we are being bombarded with by the bicycling industry/media ("Discs are ALWAYS BETTER!!!), it sounds like execution matters in the use of disc brakes...which is the same that can be said for existing rim brake designs. That's been one of my pet peeves on this entire subject: people comparing "worst in class" rim braking setups (i.e. especially on carbon rims) to "best in class" disc brake setups.

Guess what?...there's a wide range in performance on both, AND a lot of overlap.

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Is this the tipping point we reverse course back in favor of Mr. RR Aero Sins?

This tweet from Bike Snob says it all in my opinion. Well, except for wheel rub liability

"If only there were some sort of lightweight, effective brake with no cutting risk (real or perceived) that allowed for quick wheelchanges..."

Love it. It's like your favorite joke but actually funny ;)

"it sounds like execution matters in the use of disc brakes"

this is what constitutes evidence to you? a guy quoting what another guy said about riding a bike around the parking lot? (which i take to mean, just from what was written, it's the first ride after having first hiked his leg over the bike.)

yes, you're right. disc brake bikes that aren't set up well, aren't assembled well (etc) don't perform well. i have 7 or 8 bikes that have disc brakes on them, road, gravel, tri, MTB. they all are assembled and adjusted properly. if they weren't properly assembled and adjusted then, yes, as you said, they would not be bikes with properly-performing brakes.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think it's the transparency of this model that folks here are appreciating. I think the expectation of complete transparency from companies is a bit unrealistic. It's interesting to me that it centers around bikes. Are we getting testing and design details for the Nike Vapor Fly shoes? I expect a bit of secrecy...it's business.

"I think it's the transparency of this model that folks here are appreciating. I think the expectation of complete transparency from companies is a bit unrealistic."

i would be shocked if you're going to get any more transparency from this process than you get from a similar process executed by a bike manufacturer. i'm not criticizing the test that went on yesterday, just, what do you think you're getting here that you didn't or don't get from testing by cervelo, diamondback, specialized, etc?

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

No...it's not what I'm taking as evidence. I know from my own experience, AND my own stable of disc and rim brake equipped bikes that "execution matters".

There are good and crappy examples of each. But, BryanD was trying to imply that the brakes were bad because they weren't hydraulic...which, to be honest, is another copout. I've got cable actuated brake setups that outperform hydraulic actuated setups. Again, setup matters.

Besides, this conversation isn't about what you and I do in our brake setups (neither of which tolerate poor setups, apparently). Instead, my comments are about what the cycling population in general does. My first thought when hearing that people thought that ANY disc setup is better than a rim setup was "Man, you guys must be riding some crappy rim setups..."

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

That's why he's a comedic writer and I'm an engineer :-P

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

"execution matters"

i don't disagree at all.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You're also the grandson of a dentist. What would gramps say if he knew you ride alloy tracks from a manufacturer that isn't Zipp, Enve, Lightweight, Dash, or Knight? Shameful.

I'm still allowed to make this joke as kileyay, I hope?

Did Slowman just do a mic drop?

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Ha! If you only knew my grandpa...

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I guess that's what folks don't, or didn't know; what it looks like when manufacturers run through testing. This can now be a chance for you and others involved in the testing to lead the discussion with data in your back pocket to point to.

Personally, I'm a bit more trusting of manufacturer claims and I've always assumed that the super bikes are very comparable. I'll go with what I can 1. Can afford, 2. Get most comfortable on, and 3. Looks good.

Sucks that you bought those Enve 7.8s. The good news is they are going to look sick on your Exploro?

---

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

"i guess that's what folks don't, or didn't know; what it looks like when manufacturers run through testing."

we get invited to the wind tunnel all the time. i'll bet there's a dozen or 15 stories on slowtwitch on wind tunnel tests we've attended. last fall we were invited to the diamondback tunnel for andean testing. free rein to look at anything we wanted, take pics of anything we wanted.

if it's that you haven't seen it with sufficient clarity before then that's either our fault because we didn't describe it well in the past, or we did and you just weren't focused on it at that time.

here's the big revelation! (at least this will be my guess.) the shocking truth! bike companies don't lie. or obfuscate. or set up a test in order to deceive you or take advantage of their competitors. i have on a number of occasions been asked to help bike companies choose the bike sizes and configs of their rival companies in order to make certain the comparative test is straight up and fair.

did you get raw data yesterday? did i miss that? anybody get raw data? dan kennison, jimmy searr, herbert, bryand, got the raw data? want to share it? no?

and that's fine. i can understand why nobody has that data yet. 100 percent "transparency" isn't illustrative, rather it can be obfuscatory. just, it's unfair to say that bike companies are less transparent. this was a transparent test yesterday. but it was no different in its level of transparency (from my perspective) than most other tests.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I have a ton of pictures I need to post here. Let me get clearance from the team and I will.

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Disc brake pads need to first 'settle in' to work ideally...this can take a couple rides....so this info is meaningless.

On the other hand: Rim brakes normally work well right out of the box.

I'm with you, but I need the XL and not the XS, the stack isn't even close for me

We can get the raw data & we are getting the raw data. That's not the problem, at all. A2 will give it to us. The problem is the sheer size of the raw data and everything that's on it.

The data we see in the tunnel was > 400 lines long and 10-12 columns wide on and excel spreadsheet (I forgot even though I looked at that screen for >10h between yesterday and today's testing). The raw data is 3-4x that size.

I had to put all the testing we've done in the last 2 years on a thumb drive this afternoon. Took over an hour to transfer. That's the reason why no one got raw data yesterday. Because no one wanted to wait around for it to download. Much quicker to download the data sheets.

Jimmy & Dan had early flights. Geoff has to get there before we do to get the tunnel prepped & stay after to shut it down pretty sure he doesn't want to be there longer, Kiley was beat from all the testing, BryanD could hardly keep his eyes open, Heath and I just wanted beer and to put our feet up.

The other thing about the raw data is that unless your a math nerd (which I'm not) you'll only understand about 30-40% of it...at best. I do believe the discussion ended with us trying to find a nerd (and I say this in the best manner possible) who wants to look over all this data (possible masters thesis/PhD anyone) and then report back to us.

I'm pretty sure even though I made an A in stats in college, the math required for this analysis is well above my ability. IOW to quote some A list B schools "we've never seen GMAT score that high with such a low quantitative score." Which is code for "you're not getting into this school buddy." any Bschools want to accept me without a GMAT score :-)

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I nominate RChung :-)

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Hard to argue with that if he's willing to take on the task.

It does fit and test many types of vehicles (tesla, various types of race cars, bob sleds, skeletons, bikes, etc), but only goes up to 85mph. It's the lower cost, less expensive brother to Aerodyn.

Further reading comp of your first post (that I replied to anyway) reveals you were referring more to the vehicles/objects tested IN the tunnel, not so much the tunnels themselves. But, like I said, A2 tests a bit of everything. Aerodyn ONLY tests sprint cup cars, because that's the only group that can afford the time. I think Aerodyn has like...5 customers. (I'm being half serious). The other big team tunnel in Mooresville is Wind Shear, but I know much less about that one.

Aero helmets are an easy sell to your "average" consumer. Clothing? Not really. Wheels? Yes, but for the wrong reasons. Position? Sometimes the average consumer seems to "get it" when it comes to fit first and equipment second, but that's rare.

Here on Slowtwitch though? The dollar spent / watt gained ratio is otherwordly.

We can't give you the raw data because the methods we used were proprietary and not for attribution. But we are happy to release A LOT of data and far more data than any manufacturer has ever

I think you're underestimating the level of transparency we will bring and greatly exaggerating the level of transparency these firms provide, which is very very little

Where is that P5-X white paper again? Andean white paper? Oh right -- they don't exist.

Kiley...stop with the jabs at the industry. I think you are going to find out how hard it is to write a tech paper. It takes quite a while and is not an easy task.

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Luckily I smacked the GMAT quant. So I can be a great go between for all

Like I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?

I see what you did there...

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

"So you physically take the specs from the customers?"

"No, my secretary does that"

Just don't start shilling for "Jump to Conclusions" mats any time soon.

---

I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

boy, that didn't take long!

if you want to blame "the industry" blame me. i was given carte blanche by both diamondback and cervelo to print whatever aero info i wanted. DB invited me to the tunnel and gave me access to everything. including the raw data, which was not, "proprietary and not for attribution."

you produced a very nice test yesterday, and when it's all over with you'll have demonstrated (i'm quite confident) than cervelo and diamondback - whom you seem to want to hate - were straightforward and honest and transparent with their testing. and that will be of value. you will have done the readers here (and wherever else readers read) a service. just, the service you provide will be to have corroborating the industry's claims, rather than exposing the industry's lies.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I was wondering about that. Thanks for posting that.

BTW in the IT big data world, a database with one million records (lines) and 100 columns (fields) would not be considered big. It'd be about average. A few terabytes here, a few there, and pretty soon you are talking real data.

400 lines (or 3x4 times that) is tiny and could be interpreted by a human easily.
Although we still wouldn't want to because computers are better at it. For truly large datasets looking at the data is meaningless. That's where math comes in, specifically writing reports that bring out useful information out of that raw data.

I think your mistake here is trying to present a reasoned argument when Kiley is just messing with you like he did for months as PV.

Yeah, that's what I was wondering. Haven't done a bike with disc brakes, yet, but I've done some autocross racing in the past, and always followed a "bedding in" procedure when we put new pads and/or rotors on the car. Long story short, you do a series of medium speed decelerations, followed by a couple higher speed decelerations, then let the brakes cool. Effectively, you're transferring a thin layer of the brake pad material to the rotors, resulting in a more consistent performance. I've been wondering if bicycle disc brakes need a similar bedding in process.

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

ah. wise counsel. point taken.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

They do...but it's not really THAT dramatic of a difference between "bedded" and not IME...

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm not actually. I'm just really tired and slowman is saying one thing, most of which I actually agree with, and I'm hearing the one thing I don't REALLY LOUDLY. I apologize, actually. I just need to get some sleep.

Well, that depends. Sometimes it can make a big difference. Sometimes very small. Sometimes somewhere in the middle.

Let's just say I've seen MORE difference between "clean" and contaminated by simple road wetness/grime than "bedded" and not....so there's that :-/

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

If what you are predicting is true--that these bikes will all be virtual deadlocks on pure speed, then I think that is a fairly big loss for at least Cervelo (P5X) and Diamondback.

It may be justifiable, even reasonable if you have money, to purchase a ferociously ugly bike when the justification is "its the fastest bike money can buy" or even if it were--and we know it won't be--"it's the best bang for buck you can buy". But, if the designs of the P5X and Andean don't test materially better than their competition, then I can't imagine how anyone could look at those bikes and say "I gotta have it" unless you just fall into the category of I just like to be different than everyone else.

As the owner/builder/driver of an actual racecar (Spec Miata)....Bedding racecar brakes has very little if anything to do with bikes. One of the primary aspects of racecar brake bedding is OUTGASSING the pad material so that it doesn't create a gas layer under the extreme heat. But, racecar brakes get insanely hot. Glowing red, throwing sparks, boiling hydraulic fluid type of hot. They are also design to slow a 2500 lbs (or more) vehicle from 120mph to 45 mph at 1.5g every 10 seconds for an hour.

Other than the physical arrangement of the disc, and pads...nothing could be more different.

"If what you are predicting is true--that these bikes will all be virtual deadlocks on pure speed, then I think that is a fairly big loss for at least Cervelo (P5X) and Diamondback."

well, i don't see it that way. bear in mind that when these bikes first came out they were certain (among some, including kiley) to be aero dogs (the P5X in particular). so all of a sudden if they're equal to the best bikes out there, they lose? every time one of these bikes is primed to overcome an objection the bar gets placed higher.

being a best in class superbike generally means bikes that are:

1. hard to adjust for fit coordinates
2. hard to travel with
3. hard to adjust the brakes
4. often not very good stopping power
5. often not very adjustable period

i know a lot of people don't want to hear this but, as a technical class, on average, disc brakes just stop better than superbike brakes. they stop better, they're easier to adjust. both these bikes have a ton of storage. the P5X, in particular, is easy to adjust, ship, work on, store stuff on, you can put bottles just about everywhere you want, then there's extra storage, the damned thing just does everything, and it's a best in class bike (at least that's what i predict).

the andean starts at around $4000, complete. you can get this bike any which way, from the factory: 1x, 2x, mechanical, electronic, this wheel, that wheel, this color, that color. i predict it will be within a few watts of the fastest bikes tested head on, and it will really come into its own between 5° and 7.5°.

but it just doesn't seem to matter what this bike does, some folks are going to object to it.

let me tell you what the knock on this bike is. the real knock. if you exclude the horseshit complaints that don't add up to spit. this bike is spec'd with the wrong aerobar, and the integrated stem that comes with this bike disallows the use of most other bars. this needs to be fixed. i think it soon will be. (you can ride it now with a standard stem, or there is a list being compiled of other aerobars you can use with the existing stem.)

but that's it! that is the one area where the andean doesn't kill it.

now, the P5X? this is also a great bike. a GREAT bike. but this post is already too long so i'll stop here.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think the Andean is fantastic looking. If the prices/fit/aero were the same I'd choose that one.

I can understand what you're saying with the P5X. At $15k I think it needs to be more aero to justify that cost. If it tests the same as the Tactical that's not good for Cervelo and great for Premier just because of the cost difference.

---

--Chris

"At $15k I think it needs to be more aero to justify that cost."

here are my reasons:

1. it's $15,000 the way it's spec'd at $15,000. spec a speed concept, a felt IA, a scott plasma, a dimond, a ventum, you pick the bike, you spec it that way, tell me the price of that bike.

2. there's also a $11,000 spec.

3. the felt DA, when it came out, almost a decade ago, was $12,000. period. that was the price. you can get a P5X for less than you could have gotten that initial DA for.

4. this is a new platform. just as with that DA, new platforms are way up there. they didn't get rid of the P5, the P3, the P2, they added a new bike and next year, the year after, it'll come down in price just as did the Felt DA and IA.

5. have you ridden the bike? have you adjusted it to fit you? have you taken it apart for shipping, put it back together again? i have. if you have the ability to spend time with this bike you'll discover its virtues.

6. and finally, this bike is the grand experiment in human behavior. i don't know how you race, but i know how you writ large races. i know how you plural races. this bike is designed for how people race. how they live. their actual training and racing behavior. i spent upwards of a week with this bike. i climbed from sea level to 6000' and back down. i rode in gusty 30mph sidewinds. i set it up quickly for myself, and had to stop 3 times on the road to make adjustments. what would have taken me 45 minutes to do on a P5-6 took me 45 seconds to do on this bike.

it's hard to appreciate this bike unless you spend some time with it. but look, you may well be better off on a tactical. that bike is just as much a marvel as the P5X. but just because you are best served on the tactical, that doesn't mean everyone else is. i promise you the P5X will make some users 5X happier than they would have been on a tactical. but i also see why the tactical is a no-brainer for a lot of people. that's why i wrote about it in pretty glowing terms.

the tactical: the best value in a high-end superbike.
the P5X: easily the most civilized superbike ever made.
the andean: what would come out if the tactical's value and the P5X's virtues mated and had a baby.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Sure, I recognize looks are subjective and a small percentage of people will like the looks of the Andean but you must also recognize that you are in the very small minority if you like the looks of that bike.

Regarding livability with these bikes what about changing a flat with the P5X and Andean? I'm not sure with disc brakes and through axles how challenging that would be.

---

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

Perhaps but I will stick with my emotional, unapologetic , can't-even-get-to-the-substance-of-the-bike-because-they-are-so-ugly response.

I'm not in the market for a bike... I'm perfectly to ride my well-thought out P2 build but if I were, that Premier would be at the top of the list as it appears to check all the boxes you mention for much less.

I know.

---

--Chris

"Regarding livability with these bikes what about changing a flat with the P5X and Andean? I'm not sure with disc brakes and through axles how challenging that would be."

there are thru axles and there are thru axles. nowadays the speed it takes to change a flat with a thru axle is just about the same as with a standard quick release, bearing in mind that it all got slowed down a bit after lawyer lips became the norm.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"you are in the very small minority if you like the looks of that bike."

you are in the very small minority of people who feel the need to let everybody know their unsolicited opinion about that bike.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'm sure it's fantastic but $15k is a big ask for a lot of people, me included. Doesn't matter if it's $15k for a Cervelo, Trek or anything else. I've bought 3 new motorcycles for less than $15k.

I know people will buy it and love it, but I think for many people it'll be hard to justify that cost if the shootout comes out as a draw, which I think it will.

---

--Chris

need? definitely not.

Unsolicited? I guess...but that's an interestingly narrow definition of "unsolicited". There are dozens of threads dedicated to discussing these bikes none of which were started by me. There are many forum members who have made a living--or at least a name for themselves-- by offering "unsolicited" opinions about their looks, functionality, aeroness, price point etc. Isn't that the point of an online forum--discussion of all things triathlon?? I am simply weighing in--and very late to the game in doing so.

I think you're thinking of the 2011 DA update which was first released in a Di2-only version for $12,500.

The original, 2007, DA was $7250 retail.

Your point is still valid. Wouldn't have brought it up except mentioning the $12.5K DA can go full circle: it's the same frame mold as the B2 used in the role of "Mavic Open Pro" in this test. (minus Bayonet fork). Kind of bolsters your argument about how quickly things can trickle down.

it has simply been my observation that when people offer public, unsolicited opinions about the appearance of men or women they don't intend to date, religions they don't intend to join, or products they don't intend to buy, those opinions trend toward the negative.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Do you mean like "He/She is HOT!" ;-)

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

"Do you mean like "He/She is HOT!" ;-)"

no, i'm talking about people you do not intend to (or have an interest in) dating!

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'd be willing to bet that when most people make those observations about he/she/it, they don't really intend to date/pursue/purchase either...

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I don't understand the fixation on price when judging the P5X.

Both the Felt IA FRD (which was the only trim level available for at least a full year I believe) and the P5 sold for about 15k when they first launched. This price is not unheard of. Bikes from less proven/regarded brands sell for the same, but no one is balking at them in quite the same way.

Maybe it's the styling that people are objecting to? There wasn't nearly as much noise about pricing when the IA and P5 were announced, but they are also more classically styled. It seems the majority thinks the P5X is ugly and therefore not worthy of such a price tag. That doesn't really make sense. Cervelo and Diamondback made the ultimate tri bike – like you stated – and in Cervelo's case, managed to make it test 3w faster. 3w is not much, but it is still faster. So they made a bike that can do it all, offers everything everyone has ever wanted in a tri bike, made it faster than the previous "gold standard" and actually aren't charging more for it than they have with their previous top of the line halo models.

Personally, I think it's hideous and as such would never buy it. But that doesn't really matter for this discussion.

---

Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer

I agree that COMFORT is the most critical of all, at the end of the day (particularly long bike rides)

I'm not talking armchair comfort, but there is some of that. I'm talking mainly comfort such that you can hold the most areo position YOU can hold for the whole race. No use being wicked aero for 100km then sitting up for 80km because your back or neck is stuffed (like a buddy of mine used to ride). And even THAT isn't that important unless it's a TT or your going for the bike prime. You have to be comfortable enough that you can run well, right off the bike. Back in the day I had a position I could ride all day, but coming off the bike I could barely hobble for 4-5km, losing tons of time overall. Finally I dialled in a position that was more comfortable, but gave a slower bike split. However, I was able to run a lot faster off the bike so overall, it got me to the finishers medal quicker and THAT is what triathlon is all about really.

Remember tho that I'm a crap cyclist and even worse runner, but the concept remains valid I believe. I'm reminded of the example of Bjorn at IMNZ when his wicked fast position got him to T2 19 minutes faster than Cam Brown, but he ran (relative to good running triathletes) so badly, that Cam passed him by about the 30km mark from memory. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Bjorns and his dedication to fast bike splits etc, but even if he never had the pure running speed required, I still believe his fast bike splits were not the fastest way for him to get to the finish line. Giving up 5-10 minutes on the bike would probably have got him to the finish line 10-15 minutes faster overall.

Of course I don't think his extremely low cadence helped him either. A faster bike cadence would likely have increased his run cadence as well, saving his legs better and allowing him to run (and finish) slightly faster. But, as he's retired now, we will never know.

---

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

It's pretty easy to take the wheels off the P5-X

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

"It seems the majority thinks the P5X is ugly and therefore not worthy of such a price tag."

i don't think that's true. i'm talking to hundreds of people at our road shows, all across the country, and felt, QR, parlee, cervelo and others have been at these shows. i have not heard once that folks don't like the looks of this bike. i'll perform around 100 fits a year, maybe 150, and then talk to people about the bikes that would work for them. if i bring up the P5X, i've never heard anything negative about the look of this bike. (a size run of these bikes for test rides is at most road shows, and will be at the remaining 3 road shows.)

what i think is that people who feel an overwhelming need to have their voices heard think the P5X is ugly, and the great majority of people stay silent because they don't want to be ridiculed by those who disagree with them.

now, you don't have to be a loud mouthed blowhard to dislike the look of this bike. there's no problem disliking this bike. i'm just saying that what i see out in america is very different than what i read on internet forums about this bike.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Well I assure you I have high opinions of many women I don't intend to date, religions I don't intend to join and bikes and other products I don't intend to buy, including several in the shootout!! :)"

which you don't share with us! ;-)

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

And yet..one of your largest (if not THE largest) threads ever was the "Hottie" thread, right? :-/

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I meant the majority here, criticizing the bike.

But it's true what you say, in the real world, people seem to like it. I went to the official Toronto launch event and everyone there was gaga for it. It has a Lamborghini Batmobile look to it that seems to excite.

---

Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer

I think this whole testing and the forum follow up has been tremendous, and I'm glad I supported the efforts, because it might help me determine my next tri bike.

I think it will be interesting to read about the Kona bike count in 2017, even better would be a Kona bike count that includes the supermodel bikes: number of P5s, P5xs, Andeans, etc. It's fun to talk about these super bikes, but it will be interesting to see what the KQ athlete or the On the bubble KQ athlete does with their pocket book in 2017. Personally, unless you have really deep pockets or want the latest flash any BOP or MOP athlete should train more, work on their position, and potentially go to a wind tunnel, along with buying a P2 (or equivalent) and call it a day, as those are super aero, light, and brake exceptionally well.

If you are a FOP KQ type athlete looking for every second, this shootout could drive a lot of sales, if there is a big difference between the old Felt versus the new superbikes. If there is no difference, it might be a bust for these super bikes and reconfirming bikes are near peak aero or have been for some time, with further refinements coming from positioning, clothing, helmets, shoes, etc. As others have mentioned, I'd love to see how the Canyon would fare against these worthy competitors.

Thanks to everyone involved!

I've replied to you before on this and I'm going to say it again.

They have NOT been transparent with us (the customer). Maybe to you they have, but we don't have the contacts or access that you do. All the data that has been released only begs more questions. They have yet to answer those questions. How is that transparent?

We keep hearing to wait for the white papers.... We are waiting..... Until then, I'm doing my best to reserve my judgement but the more time ticks away, the more suspect I become. And if you say it takes a while to write a white paper, I seem to remember trek releasing their white paper the same day the bike was released.

---

blog

Wow...

/r/The_Donald would like its argument back.

The bias is at least as large for the opposite in your example.

In face to face discussion, an individual is more inclined _not_ to be critical.

Now consider you, a well known and respected member of the cycling industry and community, is the receiver of the criticism, possibly while in attendance in a professional capacity. Whether or not you sell the product, more bias again.

Anyway, I am sincere in saying I am sorry that the relentless negativity online has made you feel this way but this was a very specious argument.

Having talked with several in the industry I suspect the white paper if it was released that day was prewritten, at least large swaths of it. They probably did more than 1 testing session prior to and had the numbers already. Then did the white paper testing session as final confirmation.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

We agree again. I liked how it looked under me in the video and pretty much like how it looked otherwise too except for the rear derailleur calipers (but I ignore that because I know that's a temporary thing).

But I don't think people should be blamed for thinking it's ugly not having seen it, because I thought it was ugly before I had the thing in my possession. I think the way I set mine up made it look hawt.



Because I chose the size at the bottom of the stack envelope, you don't have that sort of unstable looked single pillar spacer with all that space, which I think makes the bike look kind of strange. It also looks pretty bad loaded up with all those round bottles. Every bike looks bad loaded up with three round bottles! But Cervelo continues to show us that bike in their marketing in the configuration in which it looks worse.

So no, I don't think it's just trendy to say it's ugly. I think it's actually ugly in the configuration its being shown to consumers, who can't really see how it's good functionally or aesthetically. I'm struggling with the disc brake thing in general -- especially where disc brakes are right now in the development cycle -- but I really do like the bike now and I'm surprised that I do.

A lot of people are talking crap about it because they just haven't seen it or don't have an imagination of how it will look and work for you after you get it all set up. That's my theory anyways. Oh, and because it's really really expensive.

"But I don't think people should be blamed for thinking it's ugly not having seen it"

i don't blame anybody! i think everyone has the right both to have an opinion and to voice the opinion. i'm simply saying that when i go to a road show, and i fit somebody, and derive bike solutions for him or her, and we walk around the shop and talk about bikes, the folks i talk to are never reticent to share their opinions about how a bike strikes them. nobody is shy about saying, "i just don't like the way that bike looks."

in my experience, people online are more likely to comment negatively on something they don't like, even if they have no intention of buying it (and wouldn't be in the market even if they loved the looks of the product).

in my experience - when i'm talking to people in shops - it's, "wow, i love the orange on the new QR PR6," or, "I liked cervelo's P2 colorway last year more than this year," and i just don't find the opinions in person that i find online.

this is even more the case with the andean. everybody in person loves the andean.

but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with voicing a negative opinion online. keep 'em coming!

"Oh, and because it's really really expensive."

i only partway buy that argument. does this bike offend you, because of its price? or this one? or the "race build", which is $500 less than the similarly equipped P5X but would you rather have the HED wheels on the P5X or the profile design wheels?

the "problem" with the P5X is that cervelo did what a lot of bike companies do, which is to build a new halo bike in one build (or two), they're premium bikes, and they cost a lot of money because they are premium builds.

pick your favorite superbike. put di2 dura ace on it throughout. put an enve aerobar on it. put enve wheels on it. get as close as you can on the rest of the spec. tell me what you find a bike like that costs.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'm really hoping we see more bikes with front ends as easy to adjust as the P5x. I've read Trevor's thoughts on how he has been able to dial in his position during training rides with the same ease we now made seatpost adjustments. Any opinions on this aspect of the bike?

I know I've read elsewhere that you prefer round bottles, and this is what the Cervelo folks found, too, when visually surveying race participant bikes at ironman events. But, I'm still don't want to give up on integrated hydration, such as the Shiv bladder. Any thoughts on the Ventum integrated reservoir? While there's the common belief that bta bottles are more aero than no bottle, I have a hard time believing that bottle hand offs with volunteers and removing and replacing the bottle in a bta set up is more aero than having a hands-free cambelbak hose to drink from...

---

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

You won't hear anyone talk bad about Dimond or the Felt. People are just mad because it's a Cervelo. They can't seem to comprehend that large drag reductions just don't happen anymore and storage is the new focus. They will eventually come around but it will take time.

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Of course it was pre-written. They finalized the design what..... 6-12 months before the bike was released? And they did the the final testing around that same time probably. Note that the bike was available to order the same day it was released. So again this poses the question; how and why can trek release a white paper the same day the bike is released and cervelo can't even deliver one 6 months after their bike is released?

---

blog

Wow, sounds like you are not at a good space right now.

This wind tunnel test and the thread is really aggravating you.

Just take a deep breath and relax.

It's a not 'life or death' situation, isn't it?

In the stone age, bikes were unreliable and uncomfortable and heavy and had a single gear. Over time, they became more reliable, more comfortable, more lightweight, and gained gears. Those gears even migrated to the handlebars. Eventually they got disc brakes. All of these things were directly perceptible to the rider, or measurable with household equipment.

However the introduction of carbon fibre changed the game and allowed vast variation of shapes within the ‘two wheels and a saddle’ theme. And as a result bicycle development has started to move into aerodynamics.

The difference here is that the outputs here are not directly measurable – not by any person who does not have access to a million dollar tunnel and several trained staff. So we’re in an environment in which there is a high degree of trust, and that trust is exchanged for money. In the past I think many of us would have given that trust automatically and assumed that because a brand took their equipment to a tunnel and then published a claim that the claim was justified. However we’ve seen lack of clarity and obfuscation (testing against unnamed ‘mystery bikes’, for example), and as the easy aero gains disappear those obfuscations seem to be getting worse.

Because we have no way of measuring their claims for ourselves the industry owes it to us to present their data and methods with a maximum of clarity. And events like this one become even more important to those of us who are exchanging our hard earned money for their outsize claims (in order to pursue a frivolous recreation).

I’d like for this to become a yearly event, actually.

---

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

I actually think if a manufacturer would just advertise on Slowtwitch with the statement:

'Buy our bike because you like the price, looks and specs of it"

he wouldn't do too bad among Slowtwitchers.

They would never admit that, though (like the rest of consumer sheep).

Ummm...Are we reading the same forum?

what?

the wind tunnel test was great! i'm not aggravated in the least. i think i'm in a pretty good space (thank you for asking, and for your concern!). i guess i'll have to be a little more careful about making my observations public, lest i touch a nerve!

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Actually, when the P5 was introduced it was $10K, although it came with a low end wheelset. Even adjusting for the wheelset still $2K-2.5K less. And the Felt IA FRD was $14K.

I think any way you look at it this bike is priced in a pretty rarified tier, $11K for the less expensive model is really high for an Ultegra Di2 bike.

 
i guess the numbers the bike sells will show if people like the p5X .
I would think its undeniable the p4 did not hit the spot of the design buyer.
(great for me i got mine super cheap)
the funny thing overall is there was a bike windtunnel test and suddently we are talking about design etc , rather than waiting for the results.
It does make me smile that one would go to do an aero test and then decide the night before the test to sell a bike that was ridden 5 minutes ( not even a dentist would do that )

I don't find that odd at all, pretty much consistent with what Kiley has been saying all along. I don't think he is very keen on the Diamondhumpback's brakes, and I did wonder if he only bought it for this test in the first place. There are lots of reasons to buy a bike; aerodynamics is just one reason, albeit a very high-ranking reason for right-minded competitive triathletes.

For me, I'm very keen to see the results (and even chipped in some money) but at the same time I'm almost certain that the next bike I buy will be the Ventum (when I can afford it). The reason? 1.4 litres of integrated hydration storage. I like to carry liquid calories for my long-distance racing, and pick up water from the aid stations. The Ventum has enough on-board capacity to hold all the liquid calories I need for the whole race at 140.6 and I can put a BTA in there for the water handups. So minimal or no aero penalty for what I need to carry and I don't have to stop at special needs to grab my second bottle of Infinit, or stick it behind my arse.

But what I suspect will actually happen is the B2 will be close enough that I am encouraged to keep my optimized P3C for a couple more years.

Agree wth this. If I had a choice I'd probably go ventum or tactical if I could. I'm not in the place to afford a new bike but I don't want disc brakes since I don't want to replace all my wheel sets. I want ease of travel in case I want to travel to races and I want good integration and Ventum has that locked down. And that bike can be ridden on the trainer which is huge. Dimond is out because of that for me.

---

Twitter - Instagram