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Tim Don - Campeche 70.3
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Anyone notice Tim Don's dominant performance today?

He came into T2 with a 5+ minute lead over Cody Beals and Trevor Wurtele. Split a 2:07 on the bike. Cody and Trevor split a 2:11 and Rapp went 2:13.

I honesty didn't know he had that kind of biking ability. I felt like he was pretty quiet last year. I have always liked him so I hope he's able to build on this.

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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
I honesty didn't know he had that kind of biking ability.

He doesn't. He got a massive tow from the moto.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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I'm gettin a disc. :)
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
stevej wrote:
I honesty didn't know he had that kind of biking ability.

He doesn't. He got a massive tow from the moto.

Are you just saying that or is there proof/quote saying so?

I thought this might be a possibility but I couldn't find any photos or any "triexcuses" on Twitter

blog
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Are you just saying that...

Consider the source.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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From what I read on twitter he's been working with Matt Bottrill for his bike training. Matt himself was a top Time Trialler in the UK and has now moved into multisport.

Matt runs a company that coaches lots of the top TTers in UK and they have branched out in coaching triathletes and duathletes too over the past year or 2.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
PubliusValerius wrote:
stevej wrote:
I honesty didn't know he had that kind of biking ability.


He doesn't. He got a massive tow from the moto.


Are you just saying that

I'm just saying that. But, come on. There is no way in hell Tim Don has four minutes worth of watts on Trevor and Cody. Not in any universe.

There is a circus at the front of these races and given that this was a first year race with (maybe?) a first time moto person, I think that explains it.

He doesn't win this race without a moto draft. Cody does.

Or maybe he's just working with a new cycling coach. That seems more likely.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
stevej wrote:
PubliusValerius wrote:
stevej wrote:
I honesty didn't know he had that kind of biking ability.


He doesn't. He got a massive tow from the moto.


Are you just saying that


I'm just saying that. But, come on. There is no way in hell Tim Don has four minutes worth of watts on Trevor and Cody. Not in any universe.

There is a circus at the front of these races and given that this was a first year race with (maybe?) a first time moto person, I think that explains it.

He doesn't win this race without a moto draft. Cody does.

Or maybe he's just working with a new cycling coach. That seems more likely.

Pubes can you please do the math on how many extra watts Tim Don would have had to generate to create this 4-5 min gap. This will give light to the guys how much crazy improvement Tim would have to have achieved. Or how much CdA Tim would have to have improved. I doubt at this point in his career his watts are magically going up (they just don't at this stage in a long career, because if they did, it means his engine improved, so his run should get better too). So that leaves improved aerodynamics and that is either self generated or moto generated. I'm going with the camp of Moto assist. Maybe he got more aero, but not 4 min worth. At the same time, I'll defend him with what Monty said maybe 25 years ago, "if the moto can't outbike the race leader, then the race leader earned the draft". It's really the organizer's problem, not the race leader.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I knew this would be a topic on slowtwitch today lol


What about Kaye opening up a 4:12 gap on Fredericksen in the first 27 miles of Puerto Rico?
Last edited by: Sean H: Mar 20, 17 5:59
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Whatever happened to "Tim had a great day, the others had a solid day." Some people just find another gear for races once in a while.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]
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boobooaboo wrote:
Whatever happened to "Tim had a great day, the others had a solid day." Some people just find another gear for races once in a while.

Unfortunately that sort of attitude died a long time ago. Once everyone became aware that almost all pro athletes dope, there are no more great days. Kind of sucks.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Pubes can you please do the math on how many extra watts Tim Don would have had to generate to create this 4-5 min gap. This will give light to the guys how much crazy improvement Tim would have to have achieved. Or how much CdA Tim would have to have improved. I doubt at this point in his career his watts are magically going up (they just don't at this stage in a long career, because if they did, it means his engine improved, so his run should get better too). So that leaves improved aerodynamics and that is either self generated or moto generated. I'm going with the camp of Moto assist. Maybe he got more aero, but not 4 min worth. At the same time, I'll defend him with what Monty said maybe 25 years ago, "if the moto can't outbike the race leader, then the race leader earned the draft". It's really the organizer's problem, not the race leader.

Jordan rode 2:14 on about 300 watts, so I'll use that as my reference point. Holding effective CdA (and weight) equal for him, Cody, Trevor, and Don -- which of course isn't reality, but it's a proxy -- the maths goes like this:

Rapp: ~300W
Wurtele: ~312W
Beals: ~315W
Tim Don: ~340W

Keep in mind that basically nobody on the circuit can push 340 Watts for a 70.3 except for Lionel, Starky, Weiss. Maybe one or two others. But not Tim fucking Don. He doesn't outride those guys by 25 watts. Not happening.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Well if Cody follows his pattern of openness we will soon see his training peaks (or whatever it is) file for the race and know exactly what he put out. Lets remember Cody can put out more than 40kph on about 270w thanks to setup. So the power required to outbike him by 4 minutes may not be in the 340 region as quoted above.


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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Pubes can you please do the math on how many extra watts Tim Don would have had to generate to create this 4-5 min gap. This will give light to the guys how much crazy improvement Tim would have to have achieved. Or how much CdA Tim would have to have improved. I doubt at this point in his career his watts are magically going up (they just don't at this stage in a long career, because if they did, it means his engine improved, so his run should get better too). So that leaves improved aerodynamics and that is either self generated or moto generated. I'm going with the camp of Moto assist. Maybe he got more aero, but not 4 min worth. At the same time, I'll defend him with what Monty said maybe 25 years ago, "if the moto can't outbike the race leader, then the race leader earned the draft". It's really the organizer's problem, not the race leader.


Jordan rode 2:14 on about 300 watts, so I'll use that as my reference point. Holding effective CdA (and weight) equal for him, Cody, Trevor, and Don -- which of course isn't reality, but it's a proxy -- the maths goes like this:

Rapp: ~300W
Wurtele: ~312W
Beals: ~315W
Tim Don: ~340W

Keep in mind that basically nobody on the circuit can push 340 Watts for a 70.3 except for Lionel, Starky, Weiss. Maybe one or two others. But not Tim fucking Don. He doesn't outride those guys by 25 watts. Not happening.

There are also a couple of data points for Weiss @ 9k & 31.5k before the collision that took him out. 28" and 58" down to winner, while faster than any of the other top 5 MPros thru the first two splits.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
stevej wrote:
I honesty didn't know he had that kind of biking ability.

He doesn't. He got a massive tow from the moto.

Moto could be interpreted in so many ways these days 😉

https://twitter.com/mungub
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Pubes can you please do the math on how many extra watts Tim Don would have had to generate to create this 4-5 min gap. This will give light to the guys how much crazy improvement Tim would have to have achieved. Or how much CdA Tim would have to have improved. I doubt at this point in his career his watts are magically going up (they just don't at this stage in a long career, because if they did, it means his engine improved, so his run should get better too). So that leaves improved aerodynamics and that is either self generated or moto generated. I'm going with the camp of Moto assist. Maybe he got more aero, but not 4 min worth. At the same time, I'll defend him with what Monty said maybe 25 years ago, "if the moto can't outbike the race leader, then the race leader earned the draft". It's really the organizer's problem, not the race leader.

Jordan rode 2:14 on about 300 watts, so I'll use that as my reference point. Holding effective CdA (and weight) equal for him, Cody, Trevor, and Don -- which of course isn't reality, but it's a proxy -- the maths goes like this:

Rapp: ~300W
Wurtele: ~312W
Beals: ~315W
Tim Don: ~340W

Keep in mind that basically nobody on the circuit can push 340 Watts for a 70.3 except for Lionel, Starky, Weiss. Maybe one or two others. But not Tim fucking Don. He doesn't outride those guys by 25 watts. Not happening.

I think what Pubes has shown is a decent starting point. We would have to see Tim show he is around 25-40W more slippery to have earned that lead off the same watts as say Jordan or put out more watts for the same aeroness of Jordan. If not we are stuck with the drafting of the moto causing the more slippery environment.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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He could have just been much better in windy/hilly/hot conditions.

The last leg of the bike had the leader back in at average speed of 51:59kph.

Jordan Rapp manged only 46.55 over the last 13.5km (split 17:24)

Wurtele 49.35 (split 16:24)
Beals 49.09 (split 16:30)
Don 51.59 (split 15:42)

Losing nearly two minutes to the race leader on a short section with the wind on your back should not start a discussion about moto drafting or relative aero efficiency. It should start a discussion about crapping the bed on your race tactics, riding ability and effort.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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I honesty didn't know he had that kind of biking ability. I felt like he was pretty quiet last year. I have always liked him so I hope he's able to build on this.


Early season races like this are often hard to read or to draw conclusions from. These are often the first races for the athletes in a number of months - "rust-busters" we call them.

Different athletes take a different approach to the "off-season". How the off-season goes is often dependent on how the previous year went. The off-season may have been a true off-season. Or it could have been a time of some seriously heavy training. First races of the season are very often train-through affairs, so the athlete may have not been tapered or rested at all and coming into the race right off a big-block of training. Or they are just starting to build back up now!

This is also a time of experimentation, and refinement with new equipment via new sponsors - training with the stuff is one thing, but going at it at race-intensity effort can be something else entirely.

Athletes are sometimes there due to sponsor obligations, so they show up, have a go at it and do the best they can on the day - and know that it's literally for them a C-level race!

More going on than meets the eye or seen on the results sheet!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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. So that leaves improved aerodynamics and that is either self generated or moto generated. I'm going with the camp of Moto assist.

Matt Bottrill is obsessed with drag and aero. Friends of mine ride against him (I am not in that league, or even same bit of road!)
As a pure TT cyclist they take it to a different level than triathletes, not having to run afterwards.
He also believes that triathletes should train as if each discipline is separate, using the best know ideas for each. (at least he used to) rather than swim-bike-run

If Tim Don is working with him there is likely significant input/change on this parameter.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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tuckandgo wrote:


. So that leaves improved aerodynamics and that is either self generated or moto generated. I'm going with the camp of Moto assist.

Matt Bottrill is obsessed with drag and aero. Friends of mine ride against him (I am not in that league, or even same bit of road!)
As a pure TT cyclist they take it to a different level than triathletes, not having to run afterwards.
He also believes that triathletes should train as if each discipline is separate, using the best know ideas for each. (at least he used to) rather than swim-bike-run

If Tim Don is working with him there is likely significant input/change on this parameter.

I'm confused. You say at first you think his improved aerodynamics is more likely from a moto assist, but then go on to say if he's working with Matt Bottrill there is likely significant change "on this parameter" (you mean aerodynamics I assume). So which is it?

As Fleck points out above, there are other options - how well the athletes are trained early in the season, as well as how well they gauged their effort over the 90km.

It may be he received some moto benefit, but until someone who witnessed him doing so chimes in here, it's a bit presumptuous to assume that was the primary factor. It's not like Tim Don has come from nowhere to beat these guys. (2002 World Duathlon Champion, 2006 World Triathlon Champion, 3rd at the 2014 70.3 World Championship.)
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry - the first line is a quote from another poster - my reply is to that.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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tuckandgo wrote:


. So that leaves improved aerodynamics and that is either self generated or moto generated. I'm going with the camp of Moto assist.

Matt Bottrill is obsessed with drag and aero. Friends of mine ride against him (I am not in that league, or even same bit of road!)
As a pure TT cyclist they take it to a different level than triathletes, not having to run afterwards.
He also believes that triathletes should train as if each discipline is separate, using the best know ideas for each. (at least he used to) rather than swim-bike-run

If Tim Don is working with him there is likely significant input/change on this parameter.

There is inherently skepticism when sudden improvements in biking speed come from the leader on the bike in a race. It has been that was for 30+ years. In Kona they have fixed that problem ....other lower tier races this is not always the case. A great example was Ivan Rana's IM Austria bike split and win a few year ago. Next year, Marino shows up and takes the moto with him and suddenly Ivan is 15 minutes slower. It's not Don's fault, Ivan's fault or Marino's fault if they benefit from the moto....it is the race organizer....as Monty said, something along the lines of, "it's not my fault if I am leading the race and the moto does not have enough power to get out of my way".

Look at what Pubes posted above. Either Don gained watts, got more slippery than Rapp while generating similar watts as Rapp, or he got to push less air cause the moto was too slow. I'm tending towards the last one simply because this is a completely outlier performance for Don relative to his historic performances. I am a fan of the guy, so hold zero ill will. HE SHOULD DRAFT THE STUPID MOTO IF IT CAN'T GET OUT OF THE WAY!!!
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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wouldn't Beals have been expected to out bike Wurtele? maybe he was having a slightly off day? that seems to be the only outlier in the bike splits. Maybe he was and Don had a great day.

and this is the problem with your logic. there are only a few pros in any of these races. some will have good days, some won't. there will therefore be someone who performs well and others who don't (vs their potential). the one who feels good and has a great day on the bike will lead the bike leg, with others who maybe aren't have such a good day trailing. by your logic, that leader is gaining a moto draft, whoever it is. you are saying that, by definition, anyone who performs above expectations vs their competitors is probably getting a moto draft. in some cases you may be right. in many cases though, you won't. it will just be that one athlete is having a good day and others may not. it could even be...horrors... that they trained harder for an early season race.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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tuckandgo wrote:


. So that leaves improved aerodynamics and that is either self generated or moto generated. I'm going with the camp of Moto assist.

Matt Bottrill is obsessed with drag and aero. Friends of mine ride against him (I am not in that league, or even same bit of road!)
As a pure TT cyclist they take it to a different level than triathletes, not having to run afterwards.
He also believes that triathletes should train as if each discipline is separate, using the best know ideas for each. (at least he used to) rather than swim-bike-run

If Tim Don is working with him there is likely significant input/change on this parameter.

Great Swim like Phelps. Despite the fact you don't have his aerobic capacity or wingspan
Bike like Froome in a super aggressive position so you can't possibly run afterwards
Then run like Kipsang who weighs as much as a pack of Marlboros.


What could go wrong...
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Race1] [ In reply to ]
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Hey, don't shoot the messenger :-)
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [logella] [ In reply to ]
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logella wrote:
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Are you just saying that...


Consider the source.

2 thumbs up!
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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i mostly agree with what steve's said here, and would add that don's not some flash in the pan - he's been a hammer since the '90s and has toed more start lines that i've had hot dinners.

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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tuckandgo wrote:


He also believes that triathletes should train as if each discipline is separate, using the best know ideas for each. (at least he used to) rather than swim-bike-run

If Tim Don is working with him there is likely significant input/change on this parameter.

Given their respective pasts, I sincerely doubt that Bottrill has much influence on how Tim trains for the swim and run!
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [The Red Baron] [ In reply to ]
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People are difficult on here :-)

I was simply pointing out that Matt Borrtill uses a different approach to most tri coaches. I'm sure he is only helping Tim Don on the bike, although that is pure speculation.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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tuckandgo wrote:
People are difficult on here :-)

I was simply pointing out that Matt Borrtill uses a different approach to most tri coaches. I'm sure he is only helping Tim Don on the bike, although that is pure speculation.

I am sure he is helping Tim, but 4 minutes over other pros at this stage of his career just sounds too good to be true. Different for a neo pro who could have a breakout career changing race. At this stage in his career, that big a gain points to the moto not being able to drive fast enough. Good on Tim for riding fast enough to push the Moto to its limits. It's not his problem if the moto driver is too slow, and everyone he was competing with had the change to race against the moto.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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So you completely ignored my last post? What if Beals just had an off day? What if he was just at the end of a hard training block? If so, nothing about the bike splits looks odd. You might be right (and I know you're not being critical of Don), but there is also a chance you're not.

Maybe Jordan can chime in on what he witnessed at the turn-arounds on the course (I believe there were three).
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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You're all missing something vital here. This is a triathlon, you need to look at all the splits...

Don's run was by far the slowest on the podium and on the slow end of the top 10. Don is an ace runner (28:40 10k from his prime ITU days + regular top splits at 70.3) but he was outrun by ~2+ minutes by Cody and Trevor, who are both very good runners but not guns.

So maybe the answer is that Don went much harder on the bike - has he been injured and needed a buffer to secure a win? Is he not confident in his run yet, it being so early in the season still? Is he trying out a new tactic? So far, his cycling is what lets him down, so maybe he's seeing what harder biking will do to his run and overall results.

Had he run 1:13 or faster off that bike split, then I think we'd have something to actually discuss.

Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer
Last edited by: Staer: Mar 22, 17 8:44
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Staer] [ In reply to ]
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Staer wrote:
You're all missing something vital here. This is a triathlon, you need to look at all the splits...

Don's run was by far the slowest on the podium and on the slow end of the top 10. Don is an ace runner (28:40 10k from his prime ITU days + regular top splits at 70.3) but he was outrun by ~2+ minutes by Cody and Trevor, who are both very good runners but not guns.

So maybe the answer is that Don went much harder on the bike - has he been injured and needed a buffer to secure a win? Is he not confident in his run yet, it being so early in the season still? Is he trying out a new tactic? So far, his cycling is what lets him down, so maybe he's seeing what harder biking will do to his run and overall results.

Had he run 1:13 or faster off that bike split, then I think we'd have something to actually discuss.

Very possible.

But it's also possible he only ran as fast as he needed to. Maybe he could have ran 1:10-1:13 but realized how big his lead was and only ran what he needed to in order to get the win.

blog
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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This is more accurate to Tim's style of racing. Tim has often turned his run way down once he's figured he has the win. I'd be curious to see his pace (run) for the first 8-10 miles and then his pace towards the end.
I can't say if he was helped by the moto or not but Tim is a very strong rider. He's beaten those boys since starting 70.3 and IM racing so this performance doesn't surprise me or any of his competitors I am sure.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [trimdc] [ In reply to ]
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trimdc wrote:
This is more accurate to Tim's style of racing. Tim has often turned his run way down once he's figured he has the win. I'd be curious to see his pace (run) for the first 8-10 miles and then his pace towards the end.
I can't say if he was helped by the moto or not but Tim is a very strong rider. He's beaten those boys since starting 70.3 and IM racing so this performance doesn't surprise me or any of his competitors I am sure.
This ^^^^

He came off the bike six minutes ahead of second place (Beals).

He's a smart veteran.

He was on cruise control.

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Wow there is a lot of BS in this thread. I don't know why STers need to look at things in absolutes. It was more than likely it was a little but of everything combined. I.e he got a little benefit from the moto, his watts are slightly up, his cda is slightly better, the others were slightly off. If you add up the small contribution from a number of factors it could easily account for the difference. In other words, nothing to see here apart from Don's good performance
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
So you completely ignored my last post? What if Beals just had an off day? What if he was just at the end of a hard training block? If so, nothing about the bike splits looks odd. You might be right (and I know you're not being critical of Don), but there is also a chance you're not.

Maybe Jordan can chime in on what he witnessed at the turn-arounds on the course (I believe there were three).

I am being critical of the race organizers, not Don. Don or whomever is in the front should ride as fast as they can/want. Any vehicles need to get out of the way and go way up the road. The onus is not on the race leader to slow down to not benefit from the lead vehicle. The onus is on the race director to get the stupid vehicle out of the way of the race and deliver a fair race to all parties.

I can almost guarantee you that Cody Beals was not wasting time traveling that far for a day where he is that much off. Maybe a bit off, but not that much.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Here's another guy "just saying" the same thing I am:
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ST: Tim Don put some serious time into all of you and his bike split was more than 4 minutes better than the next fastest time. Were you surprised when you got splits during the race?

Trevor [Wurtele]: Yeah, I was surprised at the gap. I really like Tim and he’s truly one of the triathlon greats. In Campeche though, I do think he was lucky to have some press and official motorbikes around him for those cross wind sections. He’s very particular about his gear selection and aero position, and obviously an amazing athlete, but I just don’t think 4 minutes is possible with the numbers myself, Cody, and Jordan were putting out. Such is racing though. It’s nothing new, and it’s not possible to avoid it if you want media coverage on a course with side winds. I’m speculating here though. I know Tim’s CdA is ridiculously low, and I’m sure riding 4+w/kg is not a big deal for him. Could very well have been a completely legit ride.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
Here's another guy "just saying" the same thing I am:
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ST: Tim Don put some serious time into all of you and his bike split was more than 4 minutes better than the next fastest time. Were you surprised when you got splits during the race?

Trevor [Wurtele]: Yeah, I was surprised at the gap. I really like Tim and he’s truly one of the triathlon greats. In Campeche though, I do think he was lucky to have some press and official motorbikes around him for those cross wind sections. He’s very particular about his gear selection and aero position, and obviously an amazing athlete, but I just don’t think 4 minutes is possible with the numbers myself, Cody, and Jordan were putting out. Such is racing though. It’s nothing new, and it’s not possible to avoid it if you want media coverage on a course with side winds. I’m speculating here though. I know Tim’s CdA is ridiculously low, and I’m sure riding 4+w/kg is not a big deal for him. Could very well have been a completely legit ride.

CONSIDER THE SOURCE! Idiot...

"One Line Robert"
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [rock] [ In reply to ]
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Eh, I would almost say the opposite in cases like these. Or atleast I dont think "adding up 8 variables = outlier performance". When you have steady improvements that is very much likely the case of fitness+specificity+aeroness, etc. But when an *outlier* performance occurs in athletics, there is usually an * to the performance. And I'm not saying anything illegal here, just from taking in what was said about the course and we know the motos on the front have been issues in the past.

ETA: And as Dev earlier stated, this is not really an athlete issue, nor should the athlete be held responsible to ride the "fair" way. It's the job of the race to do what it needs to do to get the media shots and then get out of the way.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Mar 23, 17 9:48
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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It's not a huge surprise with a first year race in a new location. They're a lot more liable to have teething problems with how the motos cover the race than other races with more experience personnel i.e. have been yelled at before for being too close . This first year they were probably just happy to get motos to cover the race.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I made an edit to my post. Just dont turn around and say as a race organization the athlete should ride further back or not "draft". This isn't and shouldn't ever be on the athlete to solve.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
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wsrobert wrote:
PubliusValerius wrote:
Here's another guy "just saying" the same thing I am:
Quote:
ST: Tim Don put some serious time into all of you and his bike split was more than 4 minutes better than the next fastest time. Were you surprised when you got splits during the race?

Trevor [Wurtele]: Yeah, I was surprised at the gap. I really like Tim and he’s truly one of the triathlon greats. In Campeche though, I do think he was lucky to have some press and official motorbikes around him for those cross wind sections. He’s very particular about his gear selection and aero position, and obviously an amazing athlete, but I just don’t think 4 minutes is possible with the numbers myself, Cody, and Jordan were putting out. Such is racing though. It’s nothing new, and it’s not possible to avoid it if you want media coverage on a course with side winds. I’m speculating here though. I know Tim’s CdA is ridiculously low, and I’m sure riding 4+w/kg is not a big deal for him. Could very well have been a completely legit ride.


CONSIDER THE SOURCE! Idiot...

What's wrong with Trevor as source??? Frankly, I have refrained from this thread and I am not going to get into after being annihilated last year on something similar but honestly things should be relatively obvious to people who are critical and understand what is possible and what isn't possible. Frankly, I would like to propose that just like we have GPS tracking at major Ironmans that we also have:

#1) Mandatory requirement for powermeters for pros. Calibrated by neutral source on race morning

#2) All bike computers are collected at T2.

#3) Results are compared to riders known data points and or inputted into a 3rd party system. Outliers are examined further. Media coverage doesn't get paid if it is determined they influenced the race, slightly pink... But seriously we aren't even attempting to understand the problem. This is livelihood for some.


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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I honestly thought the comment by Trevor was very unwise. Basically, on no evidence, other than I was going hard so there is no way someone can have been going harder than me,he calls another athlete a cheat. He even admits he didn't have the visual on it.

1) Why is anybody surprised that Tim won this race. This is a class above the others at this distance. Lets remember when on form he was 3rd only to Javier/Jan at the WC.
2) He is quite small so maybe he has a lower drag.
3) Perhaps the course suited Tim more. Trevor own words "It starts off with a steep little climb and decent, then you hit rolling highway. Pretty solid rollers," I would guess this course suits a smaller/light biker like Tim?
4) Maybe he has made a step up.
5)Maybe he pushed the bike hard than normal.

Typical ST witch hunt.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas,

I think a more constructive approach would be for WTC to insist media / moto drivers attend pro briefing, at least for foreseeable future.

Plus RD at meeting....

- Brief drivers and pro's vehicles at all times should never be alongside a lead rider, i.e. between 2 o'clock & 4 o'clock and 8 & 10 o'clock.

- Brief drivers and pro's vehicles at all times they are in front of lead rider they are at least 50m in front, 100m if it is a car, irrespective of whether the are 'off to the side' or in front of rider.

- Brief drivers and pro's vehicles at all times if vehicle is behind rider may only be upto 20m and between 5 0'clock and 7 o'clock (ironically the upside of this would be if wind is a tail cross that the moto is limiting the sail effect of the rider)

That doesn't seem overly complicated to convey by any race organiser.

My 2c on the matter.

Regards

David

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [newManUK] [ In reply to ]
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newManUK wrote:
I honestly thought the comment by Trevor was very unwise. Basically, on no evidence, other than I was going hard so there is no way someone can have been going harder than me,he calls another athlete a cheat. He even admits he didn't have the visual on it.

1) Why is anybody surprised that Tim won this race. This is a class above the others at this distance. Lets remember when on form he was 3rd only to Javier/Jan at the WC.
2) He is quite small so maybe he has a lower drag.
3) Perhaps the course suited Tim more. Trevor own words "It starts off with a steep little climb and decent, then you hit rolling highway. Pretty solid rollers," I would guess this course suits a smaller/light biker like Tim?
4) Maybe he has made a step up.
5)Maybe he pushed the bike hard than normal.

Typical ST witch hunt.

So how about this, I know Tim is super polite, how about asking him to produce a power file and lets all analyze then. Please don't bait me, nobody wants to accuse anyone of anything. All Trevor was doing was making a simple argument based on physics.

Are you aware of what Cody Beals CdA is??? Are you aware of how much power Cody put out?


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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Well my point exactly. What physics is Trevor basing his point on? Does he have a table of all of this competitors Cdas, rolling resistance and power threshold?
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:

What's wrong with Trevor as source??? Frankly, I have refrained from this thread and I am not going to get into after being annihilated last year on something similar but honestly things should be relatively obvious to people who are critical and understand what is possible and what isn't possible. Frankly, I would like to propose that just like we have GPS tracking at major Ironmans that we also have:

#1) Mandatory requirement for powermeters for pros. Calibrated by neutral source on race morning

#2) All bike computers are collected at T2.

#3) Results are compared to riders known data points and or inputted into a 3rd party system. Outliers are examined further. Media coverage doesn't get paid if it is determined they influenced the race, slightly pink... But seriously we aren't even attempting to understand the problem. This is livelihood for some.

I could poke all kinds of holes in this and I know you could too. You should know better that this isn't reasonable or even reliable for the following reasons:

- sponsorship obligations to pm's/companies/head units
- compatibility of the same PM on everyone's bike. Can that frame work with a certain pm? What about drivetrain if it's a crank pm?
- not all pm's are going to read exactly the same
- what if there's communication issues (drops, spikes)?
- how do you ensure everyone has a pm with proper battery level?
- gps data is unreliable

blog
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [newManUK] [ In reply to ]
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Why is anybody surprised that Tim won this race

________

I dont think anyone is surprised and even the ST article says that. It's the time that was won by, that was questioned. Big big difference there.

ETA: Like I said, more times than not in sports, outlier splits occur because of specific outlier conditions.

ETA #2- Motto drafting isn't something that is unheard of at IM races, so I think it's fair to atleast consider, and not act as if nothing happened there. To not add that as part of the story as as foolish on your part for trying to clarify how this result could have occurred. Maybe he never once drafted, but IM races at the front have had issues before. That's reality of situation, and necessary evil with getting media coverage.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Mar 23, 17 10:33
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [newManUK] [ In reply to ]
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newManUK wrote:
Well my point exactly. What physics is Trevor basing his point on? Does he have a table of all of this competitors Cdas, rolling resistance and power threshold?


How about direct video evidence? The moto is within several feet of Tim for the vast majority of the ride.

CONSIDER THE SOURCE

You guys are complete morons.
Last edited by: PubliusValerius: Mar 23, 17 10:36
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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You read the whole thread? Sarcasm TG. Some expert commentary on the first page.

"One Line Robert"
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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No bro. Typical witch hunt. That link is fake news.

"One Line Robert"
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
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wsrobert wrote:
You read the whole thread? Sarcasm TG. Some expert commentary on the first page.

We all know this topic is difficult for me. Honestly if a pro told me 5 years ago how it really works I would have never started down this path. The amount of time I spend swimming in relation to biking/running is sickening. Getting faster swimming helps u in so many ways ;)

But I am going to duck out. This topic just makes me angry. 15 min interval startin in 30 seconds...


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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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I mean, this topic means a lot to me. I am passionate about it. As someone who has lead smaller races I understand how truly impactful race vehicles can be. I have lots of ideas and I didn't put a lot of thought into that response as I was banging away while riding, but my point is we aren't even trying to address the topic. Similar to an Athlete's Biological Passport we should be building an Athlete's Physics Passport as well.That is in conjunction with education of all parties about how they may be *unintentionally* affecting race outcomes. Believe me, I get a bad rap from a lot of my peers because I am vocal about this stuff. I realize I risk sponsorship dollars, friendships, etc, but I just want the fairest race possible for myself, fellow competitors, the fans of sport, and society.


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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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First of all, I'm glad to see pro races generating so much discussion!

I've been hesitant to comment publicly on the issue of lead vehicle interference for a number of reasons. Only fellow pro athletes, those who follow the sport closely or those with some background in aerodynamics appreciate the severity and prevalence of this problem. Discussing this issue immediately following a race can come across as unsportsmanlike and unprofessional.

I've been on both ends of the vehicle advantage/disadvantage. As a relatively weaker swimmer and stronger cyclist, interference by vehicles has had an overwhelmingly negative effect on my racing. I'm confident that it has cost me fastest bike splits (and bonuses), if not higher finishes on more than one occasion. In the past at local races, I can point to some incredible power-speed relationships thanks to lead vehicles. The good news is that I believe that most Ironman races are very fair and problems with vehicles are the exception, not the norm.

I feel that Trevor's comments in his recent Slowtwitch interview were honest yet tactful. I couldn't resist adding a few statements and disclaimers:

-Tim is obviously a world class athlete, not to mention an athlete I like and admire. Lead vehicles impacting the race are not his problem and shouldn't cheapen his win in any way. This is Ironman's and race directors' responsibility. I by no means wish to suggest that the outcome at Campeche would have been any different.

-Word has it that Tim has been working on his bike fitness and aerodynamics. That could quite conceivably account for a good deal of his dominance on the bike.

-Based on what I observed during the race and post-race discussions with other pros, I don't doubt that the motorcycles at the front of the race provided some advantage. How much, I can't say.

-I was fit and reasonably well rested in Campeche. I rode well and generally had a good day. I'd give myself an A- for overall execution.

-Unfortunately, I don't have power data since my head unit was stolen at the airport. My best guess is an average power a little over 300W, in line with my other good 70.3 races, based on fitness, perceived exertion and comparing numbers to other pros. Typically, when I've averaged over 300W, it's been enough to set 70.3 bike course records and outride all but a small group of uberbikers, especially when the field is fragmented into small groups like at Campeche.

-Trevor and Jordan are both very strong cyclists. Sometimes I outride them, sometimes they outride me. I consider us all in the same league of "strong cyclists" a rung below the uberbikers.

-Developing a better understanding of how lead vehicles can impact the pro race has dictated significant changes to my training and tactics.

-I've been corresponding with Ironman and other pros about this issue. I would like to see Ironman take stronger measures to ensure that the influence of vehicles on the pro race is minimized. I appreciate that it's a complex issue balancing factors like fairness, athlete safety and quality media coverage. One simple measure would be for Ironman to issue clear and quantitative guidelines for best practices for vehicles on the course to all race directors. These guidelines would then me passed on to every single driver (officials, police, media) at a briefing prior to every single race. In the meantime, I plan to raise this issue at pro briefings.

Anyways, I need to avoid getting drawn deeper into this discussion. Among other reasons, I need to focus on racing again in Galveston next weekend.

CodyBeals.com | Instagram | TikTok
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Lol. The first part of the video I clicked on was about 12 minutes in and the film crew might have as well been inside his bottom bracket. Non-cyclists don't know how much just being close to a car helps; the rider doesn't have to be 3 feet directly behind it. We see wacky race execution stuff like this all the time in countries that don't have a huge middle class and cycling culture. Not enough people bike recreationaly/competitively to know what's right and wrong.

----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [newManUK] [ In reply to ]
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newManUK wrote:
I honestly thought the comment by Trevor was very unwise. Basically, on no evidence, other than I was going hard so there is no way someone can have been going harder than me,he calls another athlete a cheat. He even admits he didn't have the visual on it.

1) Why is anybody surprised that Tim won this race. This is a class above the others at this distance. Lets remember when on form he was 3rd only to Javier/Jan at the WC.
2) He is quite small so maybe he has a lower drag.
3) Perhaps the course suited Tim more. Trevor own words "It starts off with a steep little climb and decent, then you hit rolling highway. Pretty solid rollers," I would guess this course suits a smaller/light biker like Tim?
4) Maybe he has made a step up.
5)Maybe he pushed the bike hard than normal.

Typical ST witch hunt.

See what Brooks and I wrote. No one is calling Don a cheat. Trevor did not either. If you are leading a race, and the motos can't get out of the way and have less power than your legs, its not your responsibility to slow down. This is all on the race organizer, not Tim Don assuming the motos got in Don's way. If Tim Don was just more aero and powerful with no moto interference, good for him, but if the motos interfered with his riding, that's not his problem.

As I said previously I am a Tim Don fan and feel he got the short end of the stick from UK selectors for the London Olympics (there were countless threads on that topic back in 2012 on here).
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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Here is the snippet I saw. Granted it wasn't like this for very long, but shows at times the moto couldn't out run him. By the way, that is 100% Tim Don behind that moto.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Cody Beals] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with every single thing you just said. I'd even strengthen one part of it. Instead of "best practices", I think it should be "mandatory practices." If we leave it at best, people won't follow it in the heat of the moment.

Good luck, Cody!

----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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