Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

A look into the US if Bernie got his way...
Quote | Reply
http://www.reuters.com/...-bread-idUSKBN16O09Z

Quote:
Venezuela this week arrested four bakers making illegal brownies and other pastries as President Nicolas Maduro's socialist government threatens to take over bakeries in Caracas as part of a new "bread war".

Maduro has sent inspectors and soldiers into more than 700 bakeries around the capital this week to enforce a rule that 90 percent of wheat must be destined to loaves rather than more expensive pastries and cakes.


There are shortages of bread and wheat.

Quote:
During this week's inspections, two men were arrested as their bakery was using too much wheat in sweet bread, ham-filled croissants and other products, the state Superintendency of Fair Prices said in a statement sent to media on Thursday.


Superintendency of Fair Prices...

Um, ok.


Quote:
"These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana republic now?"

-Bernie Sanders

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Last edited by: Duffy: Mar 17, 17 14:30
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeah, because the US is exactly like Venezuela...

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
nslckevin wrote:
Yeah, because the US is exactly like Venezuela...

Socialism is socialism. Fails every time it's tried.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Are you starting to regret your Feel the Bern tattoo???




If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
nslckevin wrote:
Yeah, because the US is exactly like Venezuela...

If Bernie had his way, it would be.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
nslckevin wrote:
Yeah, because the US is exactly like Venezuela...

It certainly will be if we don't protect our border from the anti-racists. The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money. Then govt can't keep promises with words so hey use force. It always happens and eventually wil in Europe maybe even here.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [JSA] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That really looks like i should be super imposed on a picture of a Penis.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It certainly will be if we don't protect our border from the anti-racists. The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money. Then govt can't keep promises with words so hey use force. It always happens and eventually wil in Europe maybe even here.


So, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, all of Scandinavia and all of Europe are all headed down the wrong road? We've got this all wrong? Disaster is eminent?


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The US is a socialist country. Public expenditures on healthcare in the US are equal to all expenditures on healthcare per capita in Canada. You have large numbers of kids on school lunch programs. Schools are largely run by governments. The government provides pensions (social security) to its citizens. Corporate tax rates are higher than many other countries. When the great recession hit large groups of the population were on unemployment for long period of time, like over a year. You are a socialist country. Get over it.

Duffy wrote:
nslckevin wrote:
Yeah, because the US is exactly like Venezuela...


Socialism is socialism. Fails every time it's tried.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [len] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Some of us want to reverse the trend, ok?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [len] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
len wrote:
The US is a socialist country. Public expenditures on healthcare in the US are equal to all expenditures on healthcare per capita in Canada. You have large numbers of kids on school lunch programs. Schools are largely run by governments. The government provides pensions (social security) to its citizens. Corporate tax rates are higher than many other countries. When the great recession hit large groups of the population were on unemployment for long period of time, like over a year. You are a socialist country. Get over it.

Duffy wrote:
nslckevin wrote:
Yeah, because the US is exactly like Venezuela...


Socialism is socialism. Fails every time it's tried.

And all of the above socialist programs are a failure or could be handled much more efficiently if the Feds got out of the way.

Health care - obviously it's fucked up

Schools - The state of public education in this country borders on criminal. Even the "best" school districts are horrific (if the goal is education).

School lunch - Have you seen what they serve? The school lunch program is really just a government give away to politically connected food suppliers.

Social Security - It's broke.

Corporate tax rates - Theft (and they will be reduced under Trump and would have been increased greatly if Bernie got his way)

Unemployment - long term UE benefits have contributed greatly to the sluggish "recovery" of the last decade. Hunger is a great motivator.

Can you name some US socialist programs that are successful? That are better than the private sector could do?

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TheForge wrote:
That really looks like i should be super imposed on a picture of a Penis.

theforge super imposed on a picture of a penis? well that escalated fast...
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [axlsix3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
axlsix3 wrote:
TheForge wrote:
That really looks like i should be super imposed on a picture of a Penis.


theforge super imposed on a picture of a penis? well that escalated fast...

Obviously women would get even more turned on if their hubby's penis had a tattoo of theforge on it - he is the alpha of all alpha males. I bet even Chuck Norris would tattoo a picture of theforge on his penis.
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So you have established that Americans are particularly bad at running gov't programs. I'll give you that. My point isn't socialism is all good. Neither would it be capitalism all bad. Almost all successful countries have a mixture of both.


Duffy wrote:
len wrote:
The US is a socialist country. Public expenditures on healthcare in the US are equal to all expenditures on healthcare per capita in Canada. You have large numbers of kids on school lunch programs. Schools are largely run by governments. The government provides pensions (social security) to its citizens. Corporate tax rates are higher than many other countries. When the great recession hit large groups of the population were on unemployment for long period of time, like over a year. You are a socialist country. Get over it.

Duffy wrote:
nslckevin wrote:
Yeah, because the US is exactly like Venezuela...


Socialism is socialism. Fails every time it's tried.


And all of the above socialist programs are a failure or could be handled much more efficiently if the Feds got out of the way.

Health care - obviously it's fucked up

Schools - The state of public education in this country borders on criminal. Even the "best" school districts are horrific (if the goal is education).

School lunch - Have you seen what they serve? The school lunch program is really just a government give away to politically connected food suppliers.

Social Security - It's broke.

Corporate tax rates - Theft (and they will be reduced under Trump and would have been increased greatly if Bernie got his way)

Unemployment - long term UE benefits have contributed greatly to the sluggish "recovery" of the last decade. Hunger is a great motivator.

Can you name some US socialist programs that are successful? That are better than the private sector could do?

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [len] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
So you have established that Americans are particularly bad at running gov't programs.

And Venezuelans.

Quote:
My point isn't socialism is all good. Neither would it be capitalism all bad. Almost all successful countries have a mixture of both.

And we have too much socialism. If the likes of Bernie Sanders had his way we'd have total socialism. And we'd end up arresting bakers for making too many pastries and not enough loaves. Think that's over the top? Just look at any other socialist regime in world history and you'll see where it always ends up.

And Bernie cited Venezuela as a model for the US!!!

Well, anyway, looks like we'll be getting more capitalism and less socialism for the next few years. And that's a welcome relief.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [len] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If the purely private sector was so great at fulfilling those services, then why did the federal government need to get involved in the first place?

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Control.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well maybe. Real capitalism or crony capitalism remains to be seen. Careful planning probably not. Beside why are we bringing up Bernie isn't he old news? And Venezuela is more of a tinpot dictatorship than a modern socialist country.

Duffy wrote:
Quote:
So you have established that Americans are particularly bad at running gov't programs.


And Venezuelans.

Quote:
My point isn't socialism is all good. Neither would it be capitalism all bad. Almost all successful countries have a mixture of both.


And we have too much socialism. If the likes of Bernie Sanders had his way we'd have total socialism. And we'd end up arresting bakers for making too many pastries and not enough loaves. Think that's over the top? Just look at any other socialist regime in world history and you'll see where it always ends up.

And Bernie cited Venezuela as a model for the US!!!

Well, anyway, looks like we'll be getting more capitalism and less socialism for the next few years. And that's a welcome relief.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Last edited by: len: Mar 19, 17 10:54
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sweden has bread shortages??

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You seriously think that at the time social security was implemented, the government just wanted to control people's retirement? Or was there a need that had to be filled?

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Sweden has bread shortages??

Sigh.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
We talking about social security in particular, or the impetus towards socialism in general?

Here's a question: If the need to be filled is that some elderly are poor, why impose a solution that encompasses everyone?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hey, you're the one who made the claim that all socialist countries collapse.

Some do, many don't.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Hey, you're the one who made the claim that all socialist countries collapse.

Some do, many don't.


Sweden is well on it's way as we speak.

And how much infusion of cash from Germany is Sweden the recipient of. And who defends Germany and Sweden against hostile countries?

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Last edited by: Duffy: Mar 19, 17 11:17
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I just picked one system, at random.

The follow up question to your question is that if it just covers the poor (ie those who cannot pay) then who pays for it?

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Same people who pay for it when it covers everyone, of course. Is that a trick question or something?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [axlsix3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
One of these days I'm going to resist the impulsion to post with my phone. You know what I meant. The Bernie hair and glasses.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
No, not a trick question. So why should people pay into a system if they wont be covered by its benefits?

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The argument is that social security is needed because some elderly people are poor, and we shouldn't allow those elderly people to live in poverty, right?

You can't sell people on the idea of providing a social safety net unless it sweeps up everyone, even the majority who don't need it?

Seems like a point of view that not only takes a low view of people and their decency, but also ignores some pretty attractive selling points- like affordability and sustainability.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Can you name some US socialist programs that are successful?

Perhaps it's just an American phenomenon then, because some/many of these "socialist" programs are reasonably to very successful in many other G20 countries.

Why don't they work in the U.S.? What's different in the U.S. and with Americans?


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
More value on individual freedoms, less belief in collectivism.

Hoping nobody takes that as an insult, because it's not intended to be. It's just that our emphasis on different values leads us to self-sabotage efforts that are in line with socialism.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't want to receive handouts from the State.

That should be reason enough.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Here's the situation as I see it:

Capitalism as currently practiced in the modern age is inevitably leading to greater concentrations of wealth and income in fewer and fewer people, and it's becoming more and more untenable for the majority of people to maintain what's considered to be an acceptable standard of living in such an extraordinarily wealthy society. The rich are getting incomprehensibly rich. (Literally.) The poor are increasingly trapped in poverty. The middle class is declining, feeling squeezed, and will be migrating to the lower classes more and more.

That's an untenable system. No society that values egalitarianism and opportunity and equality and independence will long tolerate it. We just aren't going to stand for a system in which we are the biggest and richest economy in the history of the world, but that's only enjoyed by 1% of the population and most of everyone else's fortunes are in decline.

There are basically two ways to solve that problem. The most obvious is socialism. Hey, if there's radical disparity in wealth and income, we'll just tax the rich and redistribute to the poor. We can do that in a thousand different ways- "single payer" healthcare, social security, universal basic income, and so on and so forth. Basically, this option capitulates to the idea that people are not capable of supporting themselves because they don't offer enough value to do so, so it's necessary to put them on the dole, whether they like it or not.

The second option is to restructure the system so that it allows and empowers people to support themselves. It's a more difficult path. I would much prefer it.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It works both ways. If you say we shouldn't give people welfare because they won't work that is taking a low view of your fellow citizen too. Its realistic to keep social security nets broad so they catch everyone but cover just essentials so most people will aspire to more. I would also say that when social security was started the vast majority of elderly didn't have a pension or the means to support themselves if they made it to 65. In Canada and the States if you take out company and gov't pensions (getting less common) shocking numbers are unprepared for retirement.



vitus979 wrote:
The argument is that social security is needed because some elderly people are poor, and we shouldn't allow those elderly people to live in poverty, right?

You can't sell people on the idea of providing a social safety net unless it sweeps up everyone, even the majority who don't need it?

Seems like a point of view that not only takes a low view of people and their decency, but also ignores some pretty attractive selling points- like affordability and sustainability.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [len] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If you say we shouldn't give people welfare because they won't work that is taking a low view of your fellow citizen too.

Maybe, but I didn't say that. (Not saying I disagree, either. I think there's clearly a disincentive effect.) What I'm saying is that universal "solutions" sweep up people who not only can work, but do work, and therefore don't need and don't want to be caught up in some social safety net.











"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I am sympathetic to your point of view. I wish we could inspire everyone to lift themselves up and take care of themselves as much as possible. I guess one of the problems of democracy is people prefer to buy into collective security.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [len] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I see it as less of a problem with democracy as with capitalism.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't mind social security per se but as applied especially with regard to social security disability I want it shut down.
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Duffy wrote:
I don't want to receive handouts from the State.

That should be reason enough.

You don't? I'm assuming you don't drive on publicly-funded roads or take the mortgage interest tax deduction then? Or are you only against handouts for people other than yourself?
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [UrsusMaximus] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
UrsusMaximus wrote:
Duffy wrote:
I don't want to receive handouts from the State.

That should be reason enough.

You don't? I'm assuming you don't drive on publicly-funded roads or take the mortgage interest tax deduction then? Or are you only against handouts for people other than yourself?

This is one of the dumber posts that's been on here in awhile.
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [UrsusMaximus] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
There's a difference between a handout and something that is a common good. Roads are a common good. The mortgage deduction, more of a handout. Medicaid, definite handout.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
Capitalism as currently practiced in the modern age is inevitably leading to greater concentrations of wealth and income in fewer and fewer people, and it's becoming more and more untenable for the majority of people to maintain what's considered to be an acceptable standard of living in such an extraordinarily wealthy society. The rich are getting incomprehensibly rich. (Literally.) The poor are increasingly trapped in poverty. The middle class is declining, feeling squeezed, and will be migrating to the lower classes more and more.

Because what is currently practiced isn't capitalism. When government picks and chooses winner based on who donates to who that's closer to economic fascism, cronie capitalism or an oligarchy.

Regulation is a huge factor as well. Ma and Pa businesses are all but extinct in California. The little guy simply cannot compete with major corporations in a heavily regualted environment.

A small example of this is in my own field. In the 1980s almost every single gas station in Santa Barabra was a one off, owned and operated by locals who only had one (or maybe two) stations. Enter a massively expensive regulation state and the single station owner simply couldn't afford to stay in business.

Yes, I am personally taking advantage of these regulations to run a business based entirely on keeping sites in complicance (no ma and pa operations can afford me) but I really would rather go to Bob's Gas 'n' Go than yet another Shell.

And who pushed for these in CA in the first place?

Shell Oil Company.

Why?

To kill the competition.

Mission accomplished.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Want to see the middle class grow?

Stop taxing income.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I want to believe. Given that half the population doesn't pay income tax right now, and we're still seeing increasing wealth and income inequality, I'm not sure what that accomplishes.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:
I want to believe. Given that half the population doesn't pay income tax right now, and we're still seeing increasing wealth and income inequality, I'm not sure what that accomplishes.

Tax consumption. Everybody pays.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:
Here's the situation as I see it... There are basically two ways to solve that problem. The most obvious is socialism.... The second option is to restructure the system so that it allows and empowers people to support themselves. It's a more difficult path. I would much prefer it.

Well, gosh-dang it. Why hadn't anyone else though of THAT. All these nation states muddling along with various types of social & Keynesian policies when all they had to do is take this second path. But just in case Norway or Luxembourg is is still confused, please explain how this second path works exactly...

Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
please explain how this second path works exactly...

Have to want it, for starters.









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:
please explain how this second path works exactly... Have to want it, for starters.

Got it. And then?....

Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ah, you're probably right. Clearly not possible to craft a system in which the bulk of people can be self sufficient, we should just all accept our dependency on the government.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:
There's a difference between a handout and something that is a common good. Roads are a common good. The mortgage deduction, more of a handout. Medicaid, definite handout.

medical care is a common good. herd immunity.

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:
Ah, you're probably right. Clearly not possible to craft a system in which the bulk of people can be self sufficient, we should just all accept our dependency on the government.

But you really piqued our interest here. You made a poignant and lucid argument on why social institutions and programs are bound to fail. Then you brought forward the germ of an alternative idea for better governance. And now that we want to better a understand the working details of this plan you espoused it seems you won't (or maybe can't) give us anything substantive. Who the hell do you think you are, the President?

Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
More value on individual freedoms, less belief in collectivism.

Hoping nobody takes that as an insult, because it's not intended to be. It's just that our emphasis on different values leads us to self-sabotage efforts that are in line with socialism.



Tom,

I think what you said right there is key.

Taking just healthcare - in Canada, that collectivism is at work. We know that it's not perfect. But collectively in Canada, the Public Healthcare that we have is consistently ranked in the top-3 great things, of being Canadian by over 75% of the population. It's looked upon as being an advantage and a benefit! And in terms of outcomes - it's serving us reasonably, to very well. If you you put it too a National Referendum - Keep Universal Healthcare or go to a "Private U.S. Style system"(?), an overwhelming majority of the population would vote to retain the current system. It would not even be close!

Now I hope I am not being rude, but in the U.S. this collective feeling/attitude is not in place with regards to healthcare - each person must figure things out on their own! Having that freedom, is important. But that will mean, that your neighbor down the street, may not have access to the same level of care that you have, but that's for him to figure out! You, again, not being rude, are "OK" with this, as the greater thing to you is that freedom and liberty to figure things out on your own.

I was recently in the U.S. and out for dinner with 3 middle-class Americans. We talked at length about this. Each of my dinner-mates, while socio-economically that same, was in different situations with regards to their healthcare. One gentleman - had coverage through is employer. Another was self-employed so, he had bought private coverage. The other had forgone any sort of coverage and was opting for a pay-as-you-go strategy. Each seemed, "OK" with their individual choices and situations - at least for now. I was a bit confused how the ACA either was better or worse for this group or how it applied. FWIW - they all thought the Canadian system would be, "better"!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Mar 19, 17 15:32
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
veganerd wrote:
vitus979 wrote:
There's a difference between a handout and something that is a common good. Roads are a common good. The mortgage deduction, more of a handout. Medicaid, definite handout.

medical care is a common good. herd immunity.

Vaccination you mean?
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Vitus - you implied there was some radical alternative to capitalism that wasn't socialism or communism.

This is like saying that you have achieved cold fusion in your bathroom.

Of course, we want to here what this new system is!
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You are so right.
Because everybody knows that when Bernie is talking about the Nordic countries, he is actually talking about Venezuela.
I am shocked that not more people are as smart as you so they can understand that Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark are all just the same as Venezuela.

Just because Danes are happy, Finland has a great school system, Norway has huge surplus and actually own 1% of all US companies, and Sweden has IKEA.

All of these countries are Venezuela. I am sure you have visit all of them.

Trump has said that the actual unemployment in the USA can be over 40%. Trump will never lie, he is the president.
If it is over 40% in the USA, think what the actual rate is in the Nordic countries. Must be over 100%.

I am just happy that poor Americans voted for Trump so I can get a big tax cut. People have to understand that giving the top 1% a lot of cuts will pay off.
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Halvard wrote:
You are so right.
Because everybody knows that when Bernie is talking about the Nordic countries, he is actually talking about Venezuela.
I am shocked that not more people are as smart as you so they can understand that Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark are all just the same as Venezuela.

Just because Danes are happy, Finland has a great school system, Norway has huge surplus and actually own 1% of all US companies, and Sweden has IKEA.

All of these countries are Venezuela. I am sure you have visit all of them.

Trump has said that the actual unemployment in the USA can be over 40%. Trump will never lie, he is the president.
If it is over 40% in the USA, think what the actual rate is in the Nordic countries. Must be over 100%.

I am just happy that poor Americans voted for Trump so I can get a big tax cut. People have to understand that giving the top 1% a lot of cuts will pay off.

Ah I love the Nordic argument that completely ignores the demographic differences between Scandinavia and the US
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Halvard wrote:
You are so right.
Because everybody knows that when Bernie is talking about the Nordic countries, he is actually talking about Venezuela.
I am shocked that not more people are as smart as you so they can understand that Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark are all just the same as Venezuela.

Just because Danes are happy, Finland has a great school system, Norway has huge surplus and actually own 1% of all US companies, and Sweden has IKEA.

All of these countries are Venezuela. I am sure you have visit all of them.

Trump has said that the actual unemployment in the USA can be over 40%. Trump will never lie, he is the president.
If it is over 40% in the USA, think what the actual rate is in the Nordic countries. Must be over 100%.

I am just happy that poor Americans voted for Trump so I can get a big tax cut. People have to understand that giving the top 1% a lot of cuts will pay off.

“These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger.â€

- Bernie Sanders

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windywave wrote:
Ah I love the Nordic argument that completely ignores the demographic differences between Scandinavia and the US

Tell us more about this demographic difference that precludes the US from achieving the same level of success? In your opinion is it a difference in average age? A gender ratio?

Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
And in terms of outcomes - it's serving us reasonably, to very well. If you you put it too a National Referendum - Keep Universal Healthcare or go to a "Private U.S. Style system"(?), an overwhelming majority of the population would vote to retain the current system.

I have no problem with that. If it works for you, and serves the goals you want served, and you're happy with it, go on and keep it. I'm just saying that you feel that way because you prioritize different values. It doesn't make our values superior to yours, or yours superior to ours.

in the U.S. this collective feeling/attitude is not in place with regards to healthcare - each person must figure things out on their own! Having that freedom, is important. But that will mean, that your neighbor down the street, may not have access to the same level of care that you have, but that's for him to figure out!


Not entirely true. As others have pointed out, we spend quite a bit on socialized medicine as it is. Healthcare represents a fourth of our considerable federal spending. It's not like we just have some rule of the jungle thing going on down here with healthcare, where we let people bleed to death in the street if they can't cut a check to the doctor right this instant.

Basically, we have a history of valuing individual capability and self-sufficiency. It's inherent to our ideals of personal freedom and liberty. If you have the ability to take care of yourself, you should do so. Socialized medicine- or socialism in general- is predicated on the idea that you can't take care of yourself, and therefore should rely on the government to take care of you. (Again, not intended to be an insult, and the reality is, I think capitalism as it's currently practiced is moving us inexorably in that direction anyway.)

One gentleman - had coverage through is employer. Another was self-employed so, he had bought private coverage. The other had forgone any sort of coverage and was opting for a pay-as-you-go strategy. Each seemed, "OK" with their individual choices and situations - at least for now.

I see nothing inherently wrong with that situation.

As far as the ACA goes, I don't know how it impacted any of those three individuals. I can say that when I had coverage through my employer, it didn't impact me personally. When I was unemployed, it impacted my significantly and negatively- I wasn't able to afford coverage at all, and was subject to a fine on top of not having health insurance. Now that I'm self-employed, it costs me FAR more than it used to, and I don't have the freedom to decide whether or not the cost is worth it, or whether I want to pay less for less coverage, or whatever.

Frankly, as much as I hate the House Republican's plan to replace the ACA, I would be much better off if it passes.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Guffaw wrote:
windywave wrote:
Ah I love the Nordic argument that completely ignores the demographic differences between Scandinavia and the US

Tell us more about this demographic difference that precludes the US from achieving the same level of success? In your opinion is it a difference in average age? A gender ratio?

I'll let you do the research yourself but the Cubs victory parade had about many people attend as the population of Norway
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't mean to be dense, but I didn't realize those were our only three options when it comes to economic systems.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:
I don't mean to be dense, but I didn't realize those were our only three options when it comes to economic systems.

Mercantilism
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windywave wrote:
veganerd wrote:
vitus979 wrote:
There's a difference between a handout and something that is a common good. Roads are a common good. The mortgage deduction, more of a handout. Medicaid, definite handout.

medical care is a common good. herd immunity.

Vaccination you mean?

no. that plays a role however.

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:
More value on individual freedoms, less belief in collectivism.

Hoping nobody takes that as an insult, because it's not intended to be. It's just that our emphasis on different values leads us to self-sabotage efforts that are in line with socialism.

Europe has monarchies too, imagine trying to setup a monarchy here.
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Guffaw wrote:
windywave wrote:
Ah I love the Nordic argument that completely ignores the demographic differences between Scandinavia and the US


Tell us more about this demographic difference that precludes the US from achieving the same level of success? In your opinion is it a difference in average age? A gender ratio?


Way fewer narcissist and sociopaths in Northern Europe.
(Or at least they have to hide it better).

I suppose there are a%holes, wankers and douchbags every where.

But Forge, Duffy and Windywave.
That is Olympic level douchery!

But not uncommon at all in the US.
Last edited by: Velocibuddha: Mar 19, 17 16:56
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tax consumption. Everybody pays.

The problem with a consumption tax is that someone making $1 million per year is taxed on things like food at the same rate as someone making $20,000 per year. There would be riots so you have to start with something more palatable to half the country.

I would start a tax overhaul by eliminating corporate taxes as that wouldn't have such a social impact. It would make the U.S corporations far more competitive and likely lead to far fewer jobs going overseas. The companies hire more people and more people pay tax.

Then you start dramatically cutting government and to lessen the social outcry, start lowering personal taxes. People would likely care a lot less about cutting the defense budget in half (saving $300B) it it meant that every American would save $1,000 out of their own pocket. Then go after Social Security and the other high cost items like healthcare.

It's not going to happen though, there is a trend to increase the size of government everywhere in the world and people have become dependent on it. It's just not going to change unless people are willing and I don't see that happening.


Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windywave wrote:
vitus979 wrote:
I don't mean to be dense, but I didn't realize those were our only three options when it comes to economic systems.


Mercantilism


Intermediate stage between feudalism and capitalism.

In addition to mercantilism...
There is feudalism.
And barter.
And hunter gather style egalitarian cooperation.

Not a lot of different flavors of economic activity.
Last edited by: Velocibuddha: Mar 19, 17 16:36
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Who says we tax groceries?

And BTW, we tax the shit out of cigarettes and who is it, generally, that's buying cigarettes? We tax auto fuel by the gallon. A billionaire and a pauper pay the same per gallon. Haven't seen riots about that.

And, yeah, when the 40+% who are getting a free ride suddenly have to start paying up I expect many will be upset.

Too bad.

Also, our government can do with A LOT less.

I think the most effective tax reform we could enact now is to do away with withholding. Make everyone pay quarterly estimated taxes on their full earnings. Make everyone write that check.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Now there is something that will start a riot. Besides gov't won't do that because the money will be spent before they can collect it.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 
Not a lot of different flavors of economic activity.

I count five in your post alone, and you didn't even mention socialism or communism.

More to the point, there are different shades of each. You can have capitalism as we practice it today, or you can have a capitalism that favors small scale owners and widely distributed property. Whether you call that by a new name (say . . . distributism) or consider it merely a variant of capitalism is really beside the point.













"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windywave wrote:
Guffaw wrote:
windywave wrote:
Ah I love the Nordic argument that completely ignores the demographic differences between Scandinavia and the US


Tell us more about this demographic difference that precludes the US from achieving the same level of success? In your opinion is it a difference in average age? A gender ratio?


I'll let you do the research yourself but the Cubs victory parade had about many people attend as the population of Norway

So you position is that the USA can't maintain a working modern social society like Scandinavia because of the sheer size of the USA? You're suggesting the model is not scalable?
Ergo, should the USA consider splintering into smaller but more functional nation states to make this work? Then would the nation of Tennessee would be as successful as Denmark?

Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ergo, should the USA consider splintering into smaller but more functional nation states to make this work?

Federalism, you say?

Capital idea.











"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:

Not a lot of different flavors of economic activity.

I count five in your post alone, and you didn't even mention socialism or communism.

More to the point, there are different shades of each. You can have capitalism as we practice it today, or you can have a capitalism that favors small scale owners and widely distributed property. Whether you call that by a new name (say . . . distributism) or consider it merely a variant of capitalism is really beside the point.






I have no dog in this race.

A society can have some capitalist, some socialist, some communist, some pre-historic egalitarian, and some feudal economic systems.

And most societies will have a weird mixture of all these things.

But you mentioned some "alternative" to capitalism that wasn't socialism!
Last edited by: Velocibuddha: Mar 19, 17 17:09
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What I said was that we should restructure the system to empower people and enable the majority of us to be self sufficient.

I don't have all the answers, but I can certainly come up with policies that further that goal, and I'm sure you can, too. I don't think it really requires the creation of a radically new, alternative economic system.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:
What I said was that we should restructure the system to empower people and enable the majority of us to be self sufficient.

I don't have all the answers, but I can certainly come up with policies that further that goal, and I'm sure you can, too. I don't think it really requires the creation of a radically new, alternative economic system.

That sounds good.
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:
Here's the situation as I see it:


The second option is to restructure the system so that it allows and empowers people to support themselves. It's a more difficult path. I would much prefer it.

I think this describes socialism to a T. How can this be done without it being some form of socialism?
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
When I was in Norway I read that Norwegians have a bit of a conflicted relationship with socialism. I read a joke somewhere where it was said that what an older Norwegian dreads the most is his annual vacation. I think one of the things that helps Scandinavian countries so much is that not too long ago they were relying on fish, mining and timber and for most it was about hard work and ingenuity to get by. I think when you look at what makes a country successful you have to look at the people and things like their morals and work ethic and where they came from. While most Scandinavians don't go to church I think there is a residium of Lutheranism as well.

Halvard wrote:
You are so right.
Because everybody knows that when Bernie is talking about the Nordic countries, he is actually talking about Venezuela.
I am shocked that not more people are as smart as you so they can understand that Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark are all just the same as Venezuela.

Just because Danes are happy, Finland has a great school system, Norway has huge surplus and actually own 1% of all US companies, and Sweden has IKEA.

All of these countries are Venezuela. I am sure you have visit all of them.

Trump has said that the actual unemployment in the USA can be over 40%. Trump will never lie, he is the president.
If it is over 40% in the USA, think what the actual rate is in the Nordic countries. Must be over 100%.

I am just happy that poor Americans voted for Trump so I can get a big tax cut. People have to understand that giving the top 1% a lot of cuts will pay off.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [LorenzoP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
LorenzoP wrote:
vitus979 wrote:
Here's the situation as I see it:


The second option is to restructure the system so that it allows and empowers people to support themselves. It's a more difficult path. I would much prefer it.

I think this describes socialism to a T. How can this be done without it being some form of socialism?

Actually I think we are going for some kind of cooperative anarchy.

http://www.youtube.com/...p;list=RDR7qT-C-0ajI
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Who says we tax groceries?


You said you have a consumption tax. If you don't tax groceries, what would you tax?


I lived in Bermuda where they have no income tax. You do take home about 94% of your pay with the 6% being a health "levy" and the rest is yours. However, the price of all goods are expensive, in other words, a consumption tax. You pay a lot for a car, and gas, and alcohol and groceries.


If you don't tax groceries, you are not going to have any government. Considering the outcry over Obamacare, try telling people you don't have a military, or social security.
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [LorenzoP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That's not socialism at all. Socialism has everyone dependent on a handout. Nobody is self sufficient.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
You said you have a consumption tax. If you don't tax groceries, what would you tax?

Stuff. You know, all that shit people buy on Black Friday?

Quote:
I lived in Bermuda...

That's nice. What does an island territory in the Caribbean under British rule have to do with this?

Quote:
f you don't tax groceries, you are not going to have any government. Considering the outcry over Obamacare, try telling people you don't have a military, or social security.

Drama much?

And we could use a huge scaling back of our Fed.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
By that definition I don't know if there even are any socialist countries. I'm sure the 22 swedish billionaries and the 6 norwegian ones are not dependent on handouts. They likely get something back for their taxes but to say they are dependent on handouts is a big stretch. Maybe Venezeula given the state controls all the oil and the distribution of the wealth thereof. But the power is concentrated in the hands of a few which is not traditionally how most of us think of socialism. Its more like dictatorship by demagoguery.

vitus979 wrote:
That's not socialism at all. Socialism has everyone dependent on a handout. Nobody is self sufficient.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [len] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
To the extent they're socialist, they are dependent on handouts.

I'm not all that interested in how Norway runs it's economy. If they're happy with the system, more power to 'em. I'm not trying to knock Norway.

Here in America, the entire premise of these socialized programs is that people are not capable of providing for themselves, and therefore need to be dependent on the government for sustenance of some sort. Health care is a perfect example- arguments in favor of it are entirely based on the assertion that some or many people, and perhaps most people, cannot manage to pay for their own health care or provide their own insurance. It's an argument that resonates because people increasingly perceive it to be true. So the solution offered is socialized medicine. But it's a solution that doesn't seek to restore people's ability to provide for themselves. Rather, it's a solution that accepts that they can't, and provides something for them. A handout, in other words. Dependency, not self-sufficiency.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Guffaw wrote:
windywave wrote:
Guffaw wrote:
windywave wrote:
Ah I love the Nordic argument that completely ignores the demographic differences between Scandinavia and the US


Tell us more about this demographic difference that precludes the US from achieving the same level of success? In your opinion is it a difference in average age? A gender ratio?


I'll let you do the research yourself but the Cubs victory parade had about many people attend as the population of Norway

So you position is that the USA can't maintain a working modern social society like Scandinavia because of the sheer size of the USA? You're suggesting the model is not scalable?
Ergo, should the USA consider splintering into smaller but more functional nation states to make this work? Then would the nation of Tennessee would be as successful as Denmark?

You mean reducing the size of the Federal government? Making more homogeneous society? Having taxpayers actually see how their funds are spent?
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sanuk wrote:
Who says we tax groceries?


You said you have a consumption tax. If you don't tax groceries, what would you tax?


I lived in Bermuda where they have no income tax. You do take home about 94% of your pay with the 6% being a health "levy" and the rest is yours. However, the price of all goods are expensive, in other words, a consumption tax. You pay a lot for a car, and gas, and alcohol and groceries.


If you don't tax groceries, you are not going to have any government. Considering the outcry over Obamacare, try telling people you don't have a military, or social security.

Bermuda is a fucking island of course everything is going to be expensive
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [len] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
len wrote:
When I was in Norway I read that Norwegians have a bit of a conflicted relationship with socialism. I read a joke somewhere where it was said that what an older Norwegian dreads the most is his annual vacation. I think one of the things that helps Scandinavian countries so much is that not too long ago they were relying on fish, mining and timber and for most it was about hard work and ingenuity to get by. I think when you look at what makes a country successful you have to look at the people and things like their morals and work ethic and where they came from. While most Scandinavians don't go to church I think there is a residium of Lutheranism as well.


Halvard wrote:
You are so right.

Because everybody knows that when Bernie is talking about the Nordic countries, he is actually talking about Venezuela.
I am shocked that not more people are as smart as you so they can understand that Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark are all just the same as Venezuela.

Just because Danes are happy, Finland has a great school system, Norway has huge surplus and actually own 1% of all US companies, and Sweden has IKEA.

All of these countries are Venezuela. I am sure you have visit all of them.

Trump has said that the actual unemployment in the USA can be over 40%. Trump will never lie, he is the president.
If it is over 40% in the USA, think what the actual rate is in the Nordic countries. Must be over 100%.

I am just happy that poor Americans voted for Trump so I can get a big tax cut. People have to understand that giving the top 1% a lot of cuts will pay off.


What makes Norway to a horrible socialistic country is that it actually charge quite a bit of oil and gas leases.
Then it takes that cash flow and invest in stocks and bonds around the world.
The fund size is currently 900 Billion Dollars for 5 million people.
Last year the return was 53 Billion Dollars.
https://www.bloomberg.com/...er-trump-stock-rally


Of course it is a lot better to do it the capitalistic way, the American way.
You give away the the oil and gas on federal land almost free.
That way the companies, many that the Norwegian oil fund owns stock in get richer.
So the hard working Americans are paying Norwegians to have vacation.


That is why Trump rocks. He will do more of that. Talking about out smart the socialistic Norwegians.
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Things aren't more expensive because it is an island. Things are more expensive because it is a small island with high real estate and labour costs, and does not have the same economies of scale as larger islands.

But, the point is that things are substantually more expensive than they would be otherwise, because that is how the govt generates revenue.

Consumption taxes aren't really any more fair than income taxes, if you think about it. The "fairest " tax would theoretically be that everyone pays the exact same amount, but there is major problem with that approach in that a very large number of people could not afford it.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Another thing I read which I thought was quite smart is it is legislated that the fund invest almost all the money outside of Norway so that it doesn't inflate the value of Norwegian companies and prop up inefficient ones. The challenge will be to maintain the standard of living as the oil runs out. I had fun in Norway but boy was it expensive. I thought food was reasonable given that most of it has to be imported. Real estate seemed to be reasonable as well. Consumer goods expensive. And Norwegians sure have got good at building tunnels.

Halvard wrote:
len wrote:
When I was in Norway I read that Norwegians have a bit of a conflicted relationship with socialism. I read a joke somewhere where it was said that what an older Norwegian dreads the most is his annual vacation. I think one of the things that helps Scandinavian countries so much is that not too long ago they were relying on fish, mining and timber and for most it was about hard work and ingenuity to get by. I think when you look at what makes a country successful you have to look at the people and things like their morals and work ethic and where they came from. While most Scandinavians don't go to church I think there is a residium of Lutheranism as well.


Halvard wrote:
You are so right.

Because everybody knows that when Bernie is talking about the Nordic countries, he is actually talking about Venezuela.
I am shocked that not more people are as smart as you so they can understand that Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark are all just the same as Venezuela.

Just because Danes are happy, Finland has a great school system, Norway has huge surplus and actually own 1% of all US companies, and Sweden has IKEA.

All of these countries are Venezuela. I am sure you have visit all of them.

Trump has said that the actual unemployment in the USA can be over 40%. Trump will never lie, he is the president.
If it is over 40% in the USA, think what the actual rate is in the Nordic countries. Must be over 100%.

I am just happy that poor Americans voted for Trump so I can get a big tax cut. People have to understand that giving the top 1% a lot of cuts will pay off.


What makes Norway to a horrible socialistic country is that it actually charge quite a bit of oil and gas leases.
Then it takes that cash flow and invest in stocks and bonds around the world.
The fund size is currently 900 Billion Dollars for 5 million people.
Last year the return was 53 Billion Dollars.
https://www.bloomberg.com/...er-trump-stock-rally


Of course it is a lot better to do it the capitalistic way, the American way.
You give away the the oil and gas on federal land almost free.
That way the companies, many that the Norwegian oil fund owns stock in get richer.
So the hard working Americans are paying Norwegians to have vacation.


That is why Trump rocks. He will do more of that. Talking about out smart the socialistic Norwegians.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
So the hard working Americans are paying Norwegians to have vacation.

And therein lies the secret to the Norwegians' socialist success. It's funded by capitalism.

Thank you very much.

/thread.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The irony is stunning. Norway gets presented as a socialist paradise precisely because it's the capitalist class.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bermuda is a fucking island of course everything is going to be expensive


Being an island has very little to do with it. Governments have to generate revenue so if there is no income tax, where do they get revenue?


In Bermuda, it is from fees paid by International companies and duty tax on goods imported. That is why everything is expensive, from cars, to alcohol to food. But, you don't have to buy a car or alcohol, so it is a consumption tax. If you guy the goods, you pay for them.


Food is also high because of the duty. It's high because that is how the government makes money. When I worked there, I took home 94.5% of my pay and I would be in a high tax bracket. The higher take home pay more than made up for the high cost of food, and gas and my motorcycle. It's a good system because if I wanted to save, I just don't buy goods with a high duty. Simple.


The reason the goods in Bermuda are expensive, is only very marginally because they are an island, Almost all of the prices are from an import duty the government assesses to make up for a lack of income tax.




Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Duffy wrote:
Quote:
So the hard working Americans are paying Norwegians to have vacation.


And therein lies the secret to the Norwegians' socialist success. It's funded by capitalism.

Thank you very much.

/thread.

You really need to take a class in political science so you can get your definitions right.
Or maybe you took a political science class from from De Vos......

You see, if you behave capitalistic, you cannot be a socialist.

If you suck at capitalism, you give away your stuff so the profit can go to other countries.

But I am sure Trump is going to fix that. He is really smart.
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:
The irony is stunning. Norway gets presented as a socialist paradise precisely because it's the capitalist class.

Quote:
Then it takes that cash flow and invest in stocks and bonds around the world.

Stocks and bonds?

And then this from the link provided by Halvard in an attempt to show us how Norway's socialism is superior to the US capitalism...

Quote:
Norway’s sovereign wealth fund, the world’s biggest, gained 447 billion kroner ($53 billion) last year after stocks rallied following the election of Donald Trump and as the investor plowed deeper into emerging and frontier markets.

Thanks, Trump!!!!!!!


Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

Fucking gold!

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You just provided proof that american capitalism is what funds Norway's socialist utopia.

And they got a yuge bump in funds that is to Trump.

That is what you just posted above.

Again, thank you for making my point better than I ever could.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Duffy wrote:
You just provided proof that american capitalism is what funds Norway's socialist utopia.

And they got a yuge bump in funds that is to Trump.

That is what you just posted above.

Again, thank you for making my point better than I ever could.

Dear god.
You really need that political science class.
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hahahaha!

You need to read what you wrote and read the article you linked to.

Hahahahah!

You just proved that, in fact you said it yourself outright, (americans are funding Norwegians' vacations) that America's money is paying for Norway's social programs.

Oh, and evil oil pays for it too!!!!

Norway, living the easy life thanks to the US and global warming products!!!

And Norway got a big boost thanks to Trump!

Again, thank you.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If Norway is investing their money in stocks and bonds, how is that Americas money?

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JasoninHalifax wrote:
If Norway is investing their money in stocks and bonds, how is that Americas money?

Just read Halvard's post and his link. That explains it pretty well.

And keep in mind that Norway only invests in non-Norwegian stocks. It may not all be America's money but almost none of it is Norway's.

See how socialism can be successful? You just fund it with other people's money.

If the US ever went full socialist the world's economy would collapse and we'd all descend into a totalitarian nightmare. Or total worldwide chaos.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't need to read Harvard link. Norway is investing their money. That means they are investing their capital in various companies and governments, and getting a return on that investment.

The companies and governments benefit from the use of that capital. Simple economics.

So how is it americas money if Norway is providing the capital?

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Things aren't more expensive because it is an island. Things are more expensive because it is a small island with high real estate and labour costs, and does not have the same economies of scale as larger islands.

But, the point is that things are substantually more expensive than they would be otherwise, because that is how the govt generates revenue.

Consumption taxes aren't really any more fair than income taxes, if you think about it. The "fairest " tax would theoretically be that everyone pays the exact same amount, but there is major problem with that approach in that a very large number of people could not afford it.

I disagree with your premise solely due to shipping costs.
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [len] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
len wrote:
Another thing I read which I thought was quite smart is it is legislated that the fund invest almost all the money outside of Norway so that it doesn't inflate the value of Norwegian companies and prop up inefficient ones. The challenge will be to maintain the standard of living as the oil runs out. I had fun in Norway but boy was it expensive. I thought food was reasonable given that most of it has to be imported. Real estate seemed to be reasonable as well. Consumer goods expensive. And Norwegians sure have got good at building tunnels.

Halvard wrote:
len wrote:
When I was in Norway I read that Norwegians have a bit of a conflicted relationship with socialism. I read a joke somewhere where it was said that what an older Norwegian dreads the most is his annual vacation. I think one of the things that helps Scandinavian countries so much is that not too long ago they were relying on fish, mining and timber and for most it was about hard work and ingenuity to get by. I think when you look at what makes a country successful you have to look at the people and things like their morals and work ethic and where they came from. While most Scandinavians don't go to church I think there is a residium of Lutheranism as well.


Halvard wrote:
You are so right.

Because everybody knows that when Bernie is talking about the Nordic countries, he is actually talking about Venezuela.
I am shocked that not more people are as smart as you so they can understand that Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark are all just the same as Venezuela.

Just because Danes are happy, Finland has a great school system, Norway has huge surplus and actually own 1% of all US companies, and Sweden has IKEA.

All of these countries are Venezuela. I am sure you have visit all of them.

Trump has said that the actual unemployment in the USA can be over 40%. Trump will never lie, he is the president.
If it is over 40% in the USA, think what the actual rate is in the Nordic countries. Must be over 100%.

I am just happy that poor Americans voted for Trump so I can get a big tax cut. People have to understand that giving the top 1% a lot of cuts will pay off.


What makes Norway to a horrible socialistic country is that it actually charge quite a bit of oil and gas leases.
Then it takes that cash flow and invest in stocks and bonds around the world.
The fund size is currently 900 Billion Dollars for 5 million people.
Last year the return was 53 Billion Dollars.
https://www.bloomberg.com/...er-trump-stock-rally


Of course it is a lot better to do it the capitalistic way, the American way.
You give away the the oil and gas on federal land almost free.
That way the companies, many that the Norwegian oil fund owns stock in get richer.
So the hard working Americans are paying Norwegians to have vacation.


That is why Trump rocks. He will do more of that. Talking about out smart the socialistic Norwegians.

They tapped it last year for the first time ever to pay their deficit
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Everywhere in the world has shipping costs. The reason things are expensive is primarily the cost of labour (importers need to eat too), and the fact that it is a small market, along with the duties.

I spent the first 35 years of my life in Bermuda, btw.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Halvard wrote:
What makes Norway to a horrible socialistic country is that it actually charge quite a bit of oil and gas leases.
Then it takes that cash flow and invest in stocks and bonds around the world.
The fund size is currently 900 Billion Dollars for 5 million people.
Last year the return was 53 Billion Dollars.
https://www.bloomberg.com/...er-trump-stock-rally


Of course it is a lot better to do it the capitalistic way, the American way.
You give away the the oil and gas on federal land almost free.
That way the companies, many that the Norwegian oil fund owns stock in get richer.
So the hard working Americans are paying Norwegians to have vacation.


That is why Trump rocks. He will do more of that. Talking about out smart the socialistic Norwegians.
Interesting, citing the very reason that people say you can't compare Norway to the US, as the reason Scandanavian-brand socialism is better than the US-brand blend.

Forgetting that Norway is about the size of New Mexico with a population less than Minnesota, the Norwegian oil production per-capita is only less than Qatar, Kuwait, Guinea and UAE. The country produces five times as much oil per day, per capita, than Canada, the second-highest developed nation in oil production. Good for Norway that they've decided to socialize the production and developed a fund, I'd hope that any small nation would do the same with natural resources on that scale. The US doesn't have that luxury, not only is it 100x the size of Norway, it produces just 1/20th the oil (per capita) that Norway does. Half a barrel, per day, for every man, woman and child in that nation.
http://www.nationmaster.com/...roduction/Per-capita

Again, props to them for having the foresight to socialize it and save billions for the future when oil is no longer driving their economy, I'm sure that wouldn't have been done in the US and we'd be having great big fights about it now. But Norway has oil production that dwarfs that of any other developed country in the world, sorry if I'm having a problem seeing how the US can replicate that fantastic socialist 'system'.
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
$40 billion in annual revenue from oil, and more than that in return on their $800 billion fund. For 5 million people...I mean come on, are people serious comparing the US to Norway? Mainland GDP growth is non-existent and has been for a while but it doesn't have to be, the country has so much money it doesn't need REAL economic growth, just 'drill baby drill'.

I wonder how Norwegians feel about climate change and reducing emissions, producing a barrel of oil every day for every two people in the country...
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:
That's not socialism at all. Socialism has everyone dependent on a handout. Nobody is self sufficient.

When there are consistent broad swaths of people living off handouts - this is a broken economic system whether it's capitalism or socialism
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [LorenzoP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Um . . . What?

I'm not able to make sense of your post. What are you saying?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [LorenzoP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
When there are consistent broad swaths of people living off handouts

What is a "large swath"?


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [LorenzoP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I pay a lot for my "handouts".

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fleck wrote:
When there are consistent broad swaths of people living off handouts

What is a "large swath"?

I am not defining 'large swath' intentially, I am saying that having people living off handouts indicates a broken system - and is not an indicator of socialism as Vitus intends
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Everywhere in the world has shipping costs. The reason things are expensive is primarily the cost of labour (importers need to eat too), and the fact that it is a small market, along with the duties.

I spent the first 35 years of my life in Bermuda, btw.

Right but how much stuff is directly imported to Bermuda as opposed to the US or Canada and then shipped on. That means added duties and shipping costs. There is no way anything imported won't be more expensive on an island than mainland
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [LorenzoP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I am not defining 'large swath' intentially, I am saying that having people living off handouts indicates a broken system


What is a "hand out"?

I ask, because language is important - words that get used a lot in the U.S., such as "handout" or "entitlement" have a negative context associated with them.

Whereas, in other countries where socialized programs, are more entrenched, and accepted as part of the system, you rarely if ever hear those programs referred to in that manner. On the contrary, they are often looked upon as a significant net benefit of living in those countries!

In Canada or the UK or any of the many other G20 countries that have Universal Healthcare, or the many countries in Europe that have fully Government paid for University, you rarely hear those systems and programs referred to as a "handout" or an "entitlement".


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Mar 20, 17 8:18
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windywave wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Everywhere in the world has shipping costs. The reason things are expensive is primarily the cost of labour (importers need to eat too), and the fact that it is a small market, along with the duties.

I spent the first 35 years of my life in Bermuda, btw.


Right but how much stuff is directly imported to Bermuda as opposed to the US or Canada and then shipped on. That means added duties and shipping costs. There is no way anything imported won't be more expensive on an island than mainland

right - added duties, which are imposed locally. Exactly what we've been talking about. Most places in the US or Canada don't import their goods directly, they'll come to a port and then get redistributed from there, like I said, everywhere has shipping costs.

the cost of the shipping does add to the cost, but only marginally so. They don't explain why a box of lucky charms is 2-3x the price as it is in the US. (the exception is for short-shelf life perishable goods, which have to be brought in by air rather than by sea).

The big drivers of cost are import duties, the local cost of labour (getting the goods off the ship to the shelves), and local markups need to be high (because of the factors I mentioned).

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
No what Halvard explained is how a country can use capitalism very intelligently to provide enough revenue to provide valuable services to all its citizens in an efficient collective manner. Its a mixture of socialism and capitalism. The reason Norway invests abroad is it avoids crony capitalism because Norwegian companies don't get propped up by cheap money. Norway is blessed with lots of oil but at least they aren't farting it away as many countries would. But Norway isn't the only country that has a successful mixture of capitalism and socialism. The Danes do very well and all they have is some agricultural land. The Finns live next door to Russia and all they have is trees and their witts and they get by quite well. America is quite blessed as well. Huge areas of agricultural land with a relatively benign climate, decades of access to cheap labour in the form of immigrants, tons of oil and gas and relative isolation from foreign wars and good people. I like America I'm glad to live next door. I just am baffled about why Americans refuse to learn from what other countries are doing.
Duffy wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
If Norway is investing their money in stocks and bonds, how is that Americas money?


Just read Halvard's post and his link. That explains it pretty well.

And keep in mind that Norway only invests in non-Norwegian stocks. It may not all be America's money but almost none of it is Norway's.

See how socialism can be successful? You just fund it with other people's money.

If the US ever went full socialist the world's economy would collapse and we'd all descend into a totalitarian nightmare. Or total worldwide chaos.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bingo. some countries offer free university tuition or trade apprenticeships, some give free health care, or child care, or community sport. some offer farm subsidies, or keep huge standing armies as a sort of jobs program.

every country in the world offers some sort of 'handout.'

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [len] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TLDR.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [LorenzoP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Let's not get hung up on the word "handouts."

Under socialism, you are dependent on the government. You are not independent, and you're not self sufficient. That's pretty much the entire justification for every socialized policy we have- individuals are not capable of taking care of their own needs, therefore we need to institute a sweeping social policy so that people's needs are provided for. (Provided for by the government.)








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:
Let's not get hung up on the word "handouts."

Under socialism, you are dependent on the government. You are not independent, and you're not self sufficient. That's pretty much the entire justification for every socialized policy we have- individuals are not capable of taking care of their own needs, therefore we need to institute a sweeping social policy so that people's needs are provided for. (Provided for by the government.)

No. It's through such programs that we empower people to do well and improve their lot - just like you earlier described your preferred scenario. When such programs fail we have a broken system. Whether that system be more of a capitalist or socialist economy
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [LorenzoP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Uh, no.

If you're on the dole, you're not empowered, and you're not self sufficient. You might be having your needs met, but you're a dependent.

Again, it's the entire justification for such programs. And again, the health care debate in this country is a perfect example. Every single argument for a single payer system rests on the assumption that people are simply incapable of providing for their own health care, because it's too expensive, or they're too poor, or both. Socialized medicine doesn't seek to restore their self sufficiency, it just accepts that we can't figure out how to get most people to a point where they could provide their own health care, so the government will give it to them.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I would argue that the socialized model pretty much accepts that most people would be able to provide for their own healthcare (for example), but there is a sizable minority of people who cannot, and we have made the decision to not let such people fall through the cracks, for a variety of reasons.

up here, we still have a whole bunch of healthcare needs which are privately met. dental, prescription and over-the-counter medications, reproductive therapies, massage, psychological services, etc etc... But we've made the decision that we don't want people falling through the cracks for essential services. We don't want people to be bankrupted by major illness, and we want the healthcare providers to get paid for all of the work they do.

There are problems with the system, but on balance it works well. I would guess that most of us in Canada don't think that we are unable to provide for our own care. We do provide for our own care in many many ways.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Mar 20, 17 9:07
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:
.

Again, it's the entire justification for such programs. And again, the health care debate in this country is a perfect example. Every single argument for a single payer system rests on the assumption that people are simply incapable of providing for their own health care, because it's too expensive, or they're too poor, or both. Socialized medicine doesn't seek to restore their self sufficiency, it just accepts that we can't figure out how to get most people to a point where they could provide their own health care, so the government will give it to them.

really? what arguments are you reading? the work i've done in health systems research comes back to a few points, chief among them that the american model is grossly inefficient: that the states spends too much on healthcare and its outcomes aren't good enough. some people make a more 'justice' or 'equality'-based argument.

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I would argue that the socialized model pretty much accepts that most people would be able to provide for their own healthcare (for example), but there is a sizable minority of people who cannot, and we have made the decision to not let such people fall through the cracks, for a variety of reasons.

That's a fair description. My point is that you don't simply provide the safety net for those that need it, you catch up everyone with it. And it isn't a solution that empowers individuals or restores self sufficiency to as many people as possible.

Again, if you're happy with it, that's fine with me.

Here in the US, I think we're faced with a similar situation. There's a sizable minority of people who can't provide for their own health care. We have been hearing calls for socialized medicine as a way to address that problem for awhile now, and they resonate precisely because people cannot see how that sizable minority can be made more self sufficient, and more and more people are afraid of finding themselves in that minority.

Calls for a universal basic income are just starting to be heard, but it's because of the same kind of thing. People see that wealth and income are both being concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, and looking forward, it's hard to see how that trend won't accelerate. People are worried that average people won't be able to find jobs that provide for a decent standard of living in a first world country. A universal basic income is a rational solution to that problem, and it might prove to be necessary at some future point. But it's not a solution that results in increased independence or self sufficiency, it's a solution that surrenders to the fact of dependency on others.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:
If you're on the dole, you're not empowered, and you're not self sufficient.

this is important in discussions about 'socialism.'

who is self sufficient today? anyone?

i mean, sure, i'll take your point about the dole, but where do you stop? there aren't a whole lot of off-the-grid homesteaders anymore.

what if i'm not on the dole but i use federal highways, or take flights that use air traffic controllers, or drink tap water that's provided by the state? what if i start a business and enjoy copyright protection from federal law?

where do you draw the line on 'self-sufficiency?'

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
really? what arguments are you reading? the work i've done in health systems research comes back to a few points, chief among them that the american model is grossly inefficient:

Oh, I don't know, arguments in here, arguments from the media, arguments from politicians and policy makers, arguments from people in general . . .

People do sometimes point out that our system is less efficient than a socialized model, but that's pretty much a minor point and nobody would find it that compelling. Nobody cares if the system as a whole is optimized for "efficiency" or not, really, as long as it is perceived to be meeting most people's needs.

No, the argument that gets advanced and that resonates with people is that health care is simply too expensive for most people to afford. Tens of millions of people can't afford insurance, and without it, you'll die in the gutter because you can't afford to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of medical care.

The argument boils down to, individuals just can't afford to cover their medical costs. Bottom line.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"Again, props to them for having the foresight to socialize it and save billions for the future when oil is no longer driving their economy, I'm sure that wouldn't have been done in the US and we'd be having great big fights about it now. "


It's not just Norway - it's worked pretty well in Alaska with the Permanent Fund. And yeah, we have lots of big fights about it!
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
the argument that gets advanced and that resonates with people is that health care is simply too expensive for most people to afford.

That's another way of saying that it is inefficient.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It's a continuum, perhaps.

There are, as I said, things that are legitimately common goods- roads, defense, etc. There are others that don't fall into the category of a common good, but are just individual needs that everyone has- food, shelter, health care, etc. And yes, we're societal animals and nobody is or should want to be completely and purely "independent" of everyone else in a literal sense. But there remains such a thing as basic self-sufficiency, and universal socialized programs do not advance individual self-sufficiency.

Not really sure why people seem to be getting upset over this. It's not an insult, and it's virtually tautological. It just reflects a different set of values, or a significantly different emphasis in values.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
the argument that gets advanced and that resonates with people is that health care is simply too expensive for most people to afford.

That's another way of saying that it is inefficient.

No, it really isn't.

It would be most efficient for me to buy paper towels at Costco. I don't, however, buy my paper towels at Costco. I can still afford paper towels. I'm not especially concerned that my paper towel buying habits are not optimally efficient.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
are you being entirely sincere here? 'people have been getting upset over this' since the dawn of civilization, i think.

that it's a continuum is certainly self-evident; the hard part is deciding where, exactly, on that continuum a given program or state ought to plunk itself. and your sweeping statements about other stuff fall flat, for me.

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Don't think anyone is getting upset here. You just seem to have some misconceptions over what socialized medicine actually looks like in practice.

We "could" have gone to a US-style Medicaid model to cover those who cannot cover themselves. That said,the US had (maybe still has?) a lot of problems with people not qualifying for Medicaid but still being unable to afford their own care. The most effective way to ensure that no-one slips through cracks is to eliminate the cracks. Cover everyone. Cover the costs through taxes. Done.

The Canadian systems have lots of problems too, which vary by province. But we do make sure that everyone can at least get a basic level of care, if they need it.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In this context, the criticism of the costs of healthcare were largely driven by the real or perceived lack of efficiency in the system. We aren't talking about paper towels.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Mar 20, 17 10:17
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JasoninHalifax wrote:
the argument that gets advanced and that resonates with people is that health care is simply too expensive for most people to afford.

That's another way of saying that it is inefficient.

Wringing all the efficiency out of it isn't going to fix two problems. One is we have an aging, unhealthy population that needs a lot of healthcare. Two we have really good medicine, a lot of which costs a good bit to provide.
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You just seem to have some misconceptions over what socialized medicine actually looks like in practice.

In what way?


The most effective way to ensure that no-one slips through cracks is to eliminate the cracks.

I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm saying it doesn't maximize self-sufficiency.

The most effective to to ensure that nobody goes hungry might be to give everyone a food allowance, covering everyone. You could still buy extra food if you want, but you'd get enough to cover the nutritional basics. That might be a wildly efficient system, and some people might be very happy with it. It just isn't a system that encourages or enables self-sufficiency. And it would be unlikely to be adopted by a people who felt that most people can and therefore should provide for themselves. It would only be likely to get passed if there's a perception that a significant amount of people would go hungry because they aren't capable of providing for their own dietary needs.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In this context, the criticism of the costs of healthcare were largely driven by the real or perceived lack of efficiency in the system.

Maybe in Canada. Not here. Here, the criticism has been driven by horror stories about people with massive medical bills and their disastrous consequences on people, and by the reality that many people have no realistic chance of affording health insurance on their own. Efficiency of the system overall has little to nothing to do with it.









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 
"One is we have an aging, unhealthy population that needs a lot of healthcare." - yup, same as Canada and much of Europe.

"Two we have really good medicine, a lot of which costs a good bit to provide."

And how much of that "really good medicine" is medically unnecessary?

I'm not saying that efficiency is the be-all and end all, but it is a substantial reason that healthcare costs are high. The current system encourages lots of unnecessary stuff. It's your system, if you want the unnecessary stuff then have at 'er.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
if you say so. I was following the US debate for some time, but then I tend to ignore hyperbole and one-off sob stories. The way I was interpreting a lot of the statements is that ACA was supposed to bring costs down and help make things more efficient. There are lots of problems with the ACA (it's a middle child, IMO, pardon the expression), neither one thing nor the other. Should've either gone all the way to single payer, or gone a completely different direction.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JasoninHalifax wrote:
windywave wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Everywhere in the world has shipping costs. The reason things are expensive is primarily the cost of labour (importers need to eat too), and the fact that it is a small market, along with the duties.

I spent the first 35 years of my life in Bermuda, btw.


Right but how much stuff is directly imported to Bermuda as opposed to the US or Canada and then shipped on. That means added duties and shipping costs. There is no way anything imported won't be more expensive on an island than mainland

right - added duties, which are imposed locally. Exactly what we've been talking about. Most places in the US or Canada don't import their goods directly, they'll come to a port and then get redistributed from there, like I said, everywhere has shipping costs.

the cost of the shipping does add to the cost, but only marginally so. They don't explain why a box of lucky charms is 2-3x the price as it is in the US. (the exception is for short-shelf life perishable goods, which have to be brought in by air rather than by sea).

The big drivers of cost are import duties, the local cost of labour (getting the goods off the ship to the shelves), and local markups need to be high (because of the factors I mentioned).

My point is that Lucky Charms in the US are made in Michigan and sent to the Grocery store warehouse where they are sent to the store. The cost per box wholesale is lower the more you purchase. In Bermuda off the bat the price is higher because the wholesale price is higher. Now that smaller lot is shipped to a port and loaded on a ship and shipped to Bermuda where it is unloaded and sent to the store. In all likelihood there is at least one more step probably two where a pallet is broken down and repacked. And yes there's a tax. That's just a straight import of a US product.
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
wholesale price is a function of the size of the market, not specifically anything to do with being an island. One of the factors I specifically pointed out was that BDA is a small market. That's not unique to being an island.

The actual incremental shipping cost of sending products to Bermuda as opposed to, say, Sydney NS, is marginal. In Sydney, you are either paying for a long haul trucker, or getting the container shipped to Halifax, where it may or may not be broken down, and then reloaded onto a truck, driven to Sydney, unloaded, unpacked, etc.

The difference is that breaking down the pallet locally, stocking the shelves, and so on is performed at $40 / hour rather than $11.50, and the government charges an import duty of anywhere between 0 and 150%, depending on the goods. ETA - most foods are between 5-10%, with some being 0% and some higher. Ice cream is something like 22.5%

further ETA - I looked it up and breakfast cereals have an import duty rate of 0%, so bad example on my part. but that still doesn't change the larger point, which is that the local cost of labour is a much higher factor in the cost of goods than shipping.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Mar 20, 17 11:11
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windywave wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Things aren't more expensive because it is an island. Things are more expensive because it is a small island with high real estate and labour costs, and does not have the same economies of scale as larger islands.

But, the point is that things are substantually more expensive than they would be otherwise, because that is how the govt generates revenue.

Consumption taxes aren't really any more fair than income taxes, if you think about it. The "fairest " tax would theoretically be that everyone pays the exact same amount, but there is major problem with that approach in that a very large number of people could not afford it.

I disagree with your premise solely due to shipping costs.

I live on an island. Everything we get is shipped in from Vancouver. Most goods are more expensive in Vancouver then here.

Long Chile was a silly place.
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
what is the population of the island? what is the infrastructure, can it handle large(ish) ships, or are you ferrying goods? and how much more expensive are you talking about?

That's my point. Many goods in BDA are double the price as compared to the US. shipping costs are just an incremental amount

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [len] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The problem with this discussion is that some people have no clue what the definition of socialism.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

  1. 1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

  2. 2a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private propertyb : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

  3. 3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

When someone is calling Canada or any Nordic country for socialists or saying that the countries is organized after a socialist model, they have need to go back to school.


Norway is a social democracy based on capitalism.



Quote Reply
Re: A look into the US if Bernie got his way... [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
X2

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Quote Reply