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Fastest Aero Helmets?
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I'm having a hard time finding aero data or comparisons for aero helmets? I'm looking for a fast helmet with a visor. I've been looking at the Rudy Project Wing57 and the Giro Aerohead MIPS. From what I've read, the Rudy one isn't as aero as it's said to be, but I cant find any hard data like you can easily find on wheels (charts, etc.). I'm open to suggestions as well.
Last edited by: Born Aero: Nov 17, 16 18:03
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Born Aero] [ In reply to ]
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It is all subjective anyway, as it depends on your body position.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Born Aero] [ In reply to ]
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The Aerohead and the LG p-09 are generally considered some of the most consistent performers across a wide range of body shapes.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [ffips] [ In reply to ]
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ffips wrote:
It is all subjective anyway, as it depends on your body position.

This. There is the fastest for you and fastest for everyone else, but you'll need to test to find what works. I have soft spots for the Bell Javelin and S-Works TT as they tend to not be poor and cover a couple of price points.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Born Aero] [ In reply to ]
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As others have mentioned, it depends. Are you a head back or head down racer? With my neck injuries I'm heads down which means the fastest helmet for me would not be the same as a head up rider. How it fits your head will play into this too.
Last edited by: Juanmoretime: Nov 19, 16 3:17
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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I'm still clinging to my Giro A2 based on the same premise (I ride head-up). Mind you, if you believe the Giro in-house data, even the Air Attack is faster than the A2 now.....

29 years and counting
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Juanmoretime] [ In reply to ]
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Juanmoretime wrote:
Are you a head back or head down racer?


Obviously position matters, but I am not sure just stating head position is a good determiner of whether a helmet is going to be fast or not. Now if you're talking about looking straight down then I agree that something without a pronounced tail is probably going to be better and since that type of head posture requires "peeking" then something like a Cerebel or Bambino would be good choices there. However, if by head down you mean something like my position:



Then I think the question is not as clear whether short, long, bulbous, narrow, etc. is better. You don't know unless you test. And I think body type and position might play a bigger role in what is a good helmet and what isn't. For me I am having my doubts as to how good the Cerebel is for me and am thinking of going back to my Selector (which tested very fast for me) or perhaps trying the S-Works.

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Last edited by: LAI: Nov 18, 16 6:28
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Juanmoretime] [ In reply to ]
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Head up
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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LAI wrote:
Juanmoretime wrote:
Are you a head back or head down racer?

Obviously position matters, but I am not sure just stating head position is a good determiner of whether a helmet is going to be fast or not. Now if you're talking about looking straight down then I agree that something with a pronounced tail is probably going to be better and since that type of head posture requires "peeking" then something like a Cerebel or Bambino would be good choices there. However, if by head down you mean something like my position:



Then I think the question is not as clear whether short, long, bulbous, narrow, etc. is better. You don't know unless you test. And It think body type and position might play a bigger role in what is a good helmet and what isn't. For me I am having my doubts as to how good the Cerebel is for me and am thinking of going back to my Selector (which tested very fast for me) or perhaps trying the S-Works.

My position looks pretty similar to yours. More head-up than down
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Juanmoretime] [ In reply to ]
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Since you ride head down, which helmet do you use?
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [nocolonstlrolln] [ In reply to ]
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I currently use a Rudy Project Wingspan.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Born Aero] [ In reply to ]
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how do you like that bambino @ BornAero??? i think i love more down than you and currently have a long wide tear drop helmet which i'm sure isn't helping me lol going to go with either a bambino or aerohead and call it a day regardless of the actual outcome, going for mostly looks

Speed kills unless you have speed skills!!!
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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Not to get too off-topic, but what base bar is that?

Strava
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [gmh39] [ In reply to ]
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That is Felt's Bayonet III Devox and I was lucky enough to source one on the cheap. I'm not sure how many they made but this thing is about as adjustable as it gets and aero to boot.....well, SD claimed it to be second only to the 4.2:1 Bayonet II Devox.

Extensions are Zipps Ski Bend.

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Last edited by: LAI: Nov 18, 16 11:56
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Born Aero] [ In reply to ]
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I am looking to invest in decent kit for next season. Decent meaning mid-range. I am keen on the Giro Aerohead MIPS mostly from what I have read on here and other forums. The problem is in not being able to test or try any. It is a bit of a leap of faith really. Do people go with gut feel a lot as I cannot see that everyone gets the opportunity to try a number of helmets in situations that give scientific feedback.

Similar thoughts on skin suits as well. You need to try on for size which isn't easy for everyone.

My foray into time trialling at the age of 60
https://sixtyplustimetrialling.wordpress.com/
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Johnnybike] [ In reply to ]
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if you can't test for yourself you have two options in my mind.

- Pick one of the helmets that test well on a wide range of people (giro a2/selector, javelin, Spec TT, Aerohead, LP09, etc) and just assume it's not going to be terrible.
- Pick the one you think looks coolest... tell yourself it's the best.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
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Mind you, if you believe the Giro in-house data, even the Air Attack is faster than the A2 now.....

Giro is so silly

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Johnnybike] [ In reply to ]
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Since these 2 topics, skinsuits and helemts come up frequently and we've (ex-cyclist and I) helped with the design of a couple of them and tested more and have tested > 75 people there are a few rules of thumb to keep in mind if you're not going to test.

Go with the helmets that seem to work the best for the most number of people and avoid the helmets that seem to work the least often. The helmets that work most often are the Giro Advantage 2 (top 3 helmet about 90% of the time) LG P09 (top 3 helmet about 85% of the time -although when this one is bad it tends to do worse than the Giro A2). The new Giro Aerohead seems to be doing really well for most of the tests that I've seen, although I've only tested it on 1 person and it wasn't that great.

There are certain helmets to avoid bc they just aren't typically fast unless you're in the 5-10% of people super lucky. The Bambino, the Rudy projects, road aero helmets for TT's (yes we've tested them vs TT helmets)

Or go with leegohead's suggestion and buy the one you like the best if you're not going to test, even a slow TT helmet is faster than your road helmet but can be minutes slower than the right TT helmet.

When it comes to clothing it's all about the fit. You want very little to no wrinkles along the clavicles and shoulder/armpit area. You'll have some wrinkling but more is worse. You want sleeves that go down towards the crook in the elbow and you want the longest legs you can find. Basically cover as much skin as possible.

Brian Stover USAT LII
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Great advice Brian, thank you very much.
Leegohead, yes If I cannot prove which is the best for me personally I might as well go on preference.

My foray into time trialling at the age of 60
https://sixtyplustimetrialling.wordpress.com/
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Solid advice. Do you know how the Specialized S-Works TT stacks up in testing compared to the Aerohead? I assume not as well since you didn't mention it.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
Solid advice. Do you know how the Specialized S-Works TT stacks up in testing compared to the Aerohead? I assume not as well since you didn't mention it.

I would not assume that... lots of very fast ppl use the Sworks TT.. including ITT WC.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Haha I like that. Maybe I'll design my own helmet and call it the leegohead.

Or maybe I'll dig up my old selector I cut up to try to turn into the snub tail ones like the pro's were using a few years ago and re brand it ;) The Giro Leegohead.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone ever done testing on the Casco SpeedTime?

It's been around for a couple of years but I've very rarely seen it mentioned and certainly don't remember seeing any educated comparisons.
Last edited by: Ai_1: Nov 27, 16 6:41
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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Do you know how the Specialized S-Works TT stacks up in testing compared to the Aerohead?

For you? Just choose one and hope you choose the fastest if you're not going to test.

I know in at least 1 test the Aerohead beat the S Works TT helmet by a couple of watts. Most likely you will get a different result should you test the two

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Have you seen if aero road helmets (evade or ballista) give any gains to a standard road helmet with a head-down position?

just your average age grouper . no one special . no scientific knowledge . just having fun.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I just had a nasty crash with my aerohead MIPS and the visor seemed to have cut my cheek near the eye. I could just rebuy the giro aerohead or do something different...

Desert dude:. When you reference the giro advantage, do you put the giro selector in the same category? Basically, I want an aero helmet with a visor... (Much better viz due to not having sweat marks on the frameless glasses). Thanks
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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The Advantage seems to work for a greater cohort of people than the Selector or Javelin.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Last edited by: desert dude: Nov 29, 17 12:29
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks. Though would you mind checking your response. You wrote selector twice. Do you mean the advantage works for a greater cohort?

Btw, I loved the aerohead except for two things:
1. The lip on the brow negatively affected the viz a bit. Had to put the head higher rather than typical turtle
2. Slightly heavier than my LG rocket. Felt it a bit after 2 hrs.
Of course, there was the bizarre event of getting sliced by the visor.

Everybody: recommend a lid that covers as much skin as possible (eg ears). Makes a big difference when hitting the deck hard.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Born Aero] [ In reply to ]
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We might be coming to the age of "peak aero" when it comes to helmets as most of the new stuff is all testing within a watt or two of each other. At this point, multiple tests are necessary for many athletes to tease out any real differences. Specific to your desire for helmets with Visors, The Aerohead, Oakley Aro 7, P09 (even with visor is still good), and Specialized S-Works are all good on most athletes. Bambino is a crap shoot for sure; great when it works, but not much better than a regular road helmet when it doesn't. In fact, the Infinity is probably an overall more consistent performer. Haven't tested the new Mistral yet

Since it's going to come up. I think I'm the only person to test the Aro 7 outside of Oakley. 3-4 tests so far and it's looking pretty good, though right there with the Aerohead and P09, so no real gains. Still, it's very good and the visor quality is excellent. Not much else I can talk about just yet when it comes to the Oakleys. I will say, it looks to the eye much smaller than it is. The medium looks very small until you put it on and realize there's a lot of room in there. I would say sizes are pretty normal.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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Not to put words in Brian's mouth, but in no particular order:
  • Giro Advantage 2
  • Louis-Garneau P-09
  • Giro Aerohead

My recommendation is the A2, since it can be found on sale right now for ~$60, where the Aerohead and LG are easily three times that.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [duckies] [ In reply to ]
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At the risk of hijack, anyone with experience with the aerohead experienced issues in humid race conditions with the visor fogging up? That's my only complaint with it after racing all year with one. It's enough of an issue that I've considered using my original Advantage at a couple of soupy races. The Aerohead fogged up so badly at a July sprint race down here that I had to flip the visor for 1/2 the bike leg. On the plus side, that's an easy task to accomplish even at flat-out sprint riding due to the magnets.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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Fixed that and I did accidentally put Selector in there.

The Advantage seems to work for a slightly larger group of people vs the Selector/Javelin.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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POC Cerebel tested very well for me... not sure how it's testing on others though. Good visored helmet solution.

Jim@EROsports wrote:
We might be coming to the age of "peak aero" when it comes to helmets as most of the new stuff is all testing within a watt or two of each other. At this point, multiple tests are necessary for many athletes to tease out any real differences. Specific to your desire for helmets with Visors, The Aerohead, Oakley Aro 7, P09 (even with visor is still good), and Specialized S-Works are all good on most athletes. Bambino is a crap shoot for sure; great when it works, but not much better than a regular road helmet when it doesn't. In fact, the Infinity is probably an overall more consistent performer. Haven't tested the new Mistral yet

Since it's going to come up. I think I'm the only person to test the Aro 7 outside of Oakley. 3-4 tests so far and it's looking pretty good, though right there with the Aerohead and P09, so no real gains. Still, it's very good and the visor quality is excellent. Not much else I can talk about just yet when it comes to the Oakleys. I will say, it looks to the eye much smaller than it is. The medium looks very small until you put it on and realize there's a lot of room in there. I would say sizes are pretty normal.

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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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TriBriGuy wrote:
At the risk of hijack, anyone with experience with the aerohead experienced issues in humid race conditions with the visor fogging up?

Did quite some hot rides including Kona since I've got the Aerohead (the "normal" one, not the expensive version) and did not have any issues with the heat or with fogging. I just do not notice the helmet. Seems to be perfect for me.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
We might be coming to the age of "peak aero" when it comes to helmets as most of the new stuff is all testing within a watt or two of each other. At this point, multiple tests are necessary for many athletes to tease out any real differences. Specific to your desire for helmets with Visors, The Aerohead, Oakley Aro 7, P09 (even with visor is still good), and Specialized S-Works are all good on most athletes. Bambino is a crap shoot for sure; great when it works, but not much better than a regular road helmet when it doesn't. In fact, the Infinity is probably an overall more consistent performer. Haven't tested the new Mistral yet

Since it's going to come up. I think I'm the only person to test the Aro 7 outside of Oakley. 3-4 tests so far and it's looking pretty good, though right there with the Aerohead and P09, so no real gains. Still, it's very good and the visor quality is excellent. Not much else I can talk about just yet when it comes to the Oakleys. I will say, it looks to the eye much smaller than it is. The medium looks very small until you put it on and realize there's a lot of room in there. I would say sizes are pretty normal.

Thanks for the info on the Oakley, 3-4 test still not a large test base but something to go on at least. Do you know what pro's/athletes worn it at Kona? I would switch from the Aerohead for better optics.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
We might be coming to the age of "peak aero" when it comes to helmets as most of the new stuff is all testing within a watt or two of each other. At this point, multiple tests are necessary for many athletes to tease out any real differences. Specific to your desire for helmets with Visors, The Aerohead, Oakley Aro 7, P09 (even with visor is still good), and Specialized S-Works are all good on most athletes. Bambino is a crap shoot for sure; great when it works, but not much better than a regular road helmet when it doesn't. In fact, the Infinity is probably an overall more consistent performer. Haven't tested the new Mistral yet

Since it's going to come up. I think I'm the only person to test the Aro 7 outside of Oakley. 3-4 tests so far and it's looking pretty good, though right there with the Aerohead and P09, so no real gains. Still, it's very good and the visor quality is excellent. Not much else I can talk about just yet when it comes to the Oakleys. I will say, it looks to the eye much smaller than it is. The medium looks very small until you put it on and realize there's a lot of room in there. I would say sizes are pretty normal.

Jim, is there a reason you don’t refer to the Advantage when comparing helmets?
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Karl.n] [ In reply to ]
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The OP was asking about helmets with visors.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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Jan Frodeno wore a custom Aro7 (long tail) and Nick Kastelein wore the Aro7 that will be available to the public (short tail).

The Aro7 comes w/ an injection molded visor w/ Oakley's Prizm Road lens tint and an injection molded clear lens as well.
Last edited by: capnslow: Dec 5, 17 21:28
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [capnslow] [ In reply to ]
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capnslow wrote:
Jan Frodeno wore a custom Aro7 and Nick Kastelein wore the Aro7 that will be available to the public.

The Aro7 comes w/ an injection molded visor w/ Oakley's Prizm Road lens tint. The consumer helmets will come w/ a clear lens as well.

Bummer I would have liked the small tail....I think

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Does anyone maybe have any info on the Bontrager Aeolus Aero helmet? I realise it's "illegal" in the US to use, but a webshop I found has a 50% sale on them so I was wondering if it was worth it over my Ballista?

I've read about ventilation maybe being an issue but if it really is too hot during my olympics/halfs then I can always just take the Ballista if needed..
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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It's very fast from the few tests I've done with it. Kills the Ballista, which is an okay aero road helmet.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Have you tested the LG P-06 with a visor? I just picked one up, and I don't expect that it's as fast as the high-end lids, but it it seems like it should be pretty good.

Just curious how it compares to the p-09 or similar, not that I'm gonna switch anytime soon.

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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Born Aero] [ In reply to ]
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Born Aero wrote:
Head up


I am a visor helmet triathlete all the way. I am more a head down rider and I have a collection of helmets but personally the Catlike Rapid is getting used more often then not purely based on it is as cool as not wearing a visor time trial helmet. I live in Australia and most races are hot and you may get away with a 70.3 but if you race Ironman I just want to get the helmet off by the end as it gets warm and become claustrophobic. I have done Ironmans in Giro Selector, Rudy Wing 57, Lazer Wasp, Giro Air Attack and the Catlike Rapid. I rode the Rapid at Kona this year and was even fine there. Aero aside the Catlike is the most versatile helmet and if you are head up you really don't need a tail so aero gains are minimal. If you ride in cooler races then I'd go based on looks and price.

http://aerogeeks.com/2016/08/03/catlike-rapid-tri-review/
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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similarly, head downish. Going to try the smith podium - like you I'm in aus, so will have to import

edit: I don't see too many catlike rapids around - are there any tests out there on them?
Last edited by: coates_hbk: Dec 6, 17 18:02
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Have you tested the LG P-06 with a visor? I just picked one up, and I don't expect that it's as fast as the high-end lids, but it it seems like it should be pretty good.

Just curious how it compares to the p-09 or similar, not that I'm gonna switch anytime soon.

The new P-06 has some subtle updates/touches on the older one I have. So happy I got it too. My old visor will fit as well.

I think it's more helmet/rider vs helmet/rider. And other factors like visor distortion, attachment. weight and how well the straps integrate might be the bigger reasons to go with another design. Cooling is another factor hence you see athletes using the aero road models.

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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
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The Smith Podium has basically no vents which I don't like personally but many people use the Kask Bambino with no issues and similar helmet. Movistar cycling team used them last season but changed sponsors this season and they always used the tri version. I haven't seen too many tests on the but a few of the pros were wearing them at Kona this year.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim, I am curious. Do you happen to have any information on size of helmet vs aero?

For a lot of helmets, my head falls on the very upper range of an M (59cm) and usually I can squeeze my head into a size M, but with noticeable discomfort. So, I often go up a L in the name of comfort.

Do you happen to have any data on how much more drag that might be?
Last edited by: bloodyshogun: Dec 6, 17 20:31
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [bloodyshogun] [ In reply to ]
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bloodyshogun wrote:
Jim, I am curious. Do you happen to have any information on size of helmet vs aero?

For a lot of helmets, my head falls on the very upper range of an M (59cm) and usually I can squeeze my head into a size M, but with noticeable discomfort. So, I often go up a L in the name of comfort.

Do you happen to have any data on how much more drag that might be?

It's all about frontal area, so larger will be slower. It is on me. I, too, fall right in between on a lot of helmets, but mediums are always faster on me. How much difference is there for you? Tough to tell without testing.

Comfort is a consideration, though, as discomfort can have a negative effect on performance.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Any insights about Scott cadence in tri position instead of road position as tested by swiss side?
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
bloodyshogun wrote:
Jim, I am curious. Do you happen to have any information on size of helmet vs aero?

For a lot of helmets, my head falls on the very upper range of an M (59cm) and usually I can squeeze my head into a size M, but with noticeable discomfort. So, I often go up a L in the name of comfort.

Do you happen to have any data on how much more drag that might be?


It's all about frontal area, so larger will be slower. It is on me. I, too, fall right in between on a lot of helmets, but mediums are always faster on me. How much difference is there for you? Tough to tell without testing.

Comfort is a consideration, though, as discomfort can have a negative effect on performance.

For the past couple of years I've been using a Louis Garneau Course, under the heading of ventilation/comfort & those big channel's somewhat reducing the effective frontal area.

I'd love to know if something like a Giro Advantage 2 generally tests faster than the LG Course or if it's generally marginal.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
bloodyshogun wrote:
Jim, I am curious. Do you happen to have any information on size of helmet vs aero?


For a lot of helmets, my head falls on the very upper range of an M (59cm) and usually I can squeeze my head into a size M, but with noticeable discomfort. So, I often go up a L in the name of comfort.

Do you happen to have any data on how much more drag that might be?


It's all about frontal area, so larger will be slower. It is on me. I, too, fall right in between on a lot of helmets, but mediums are always faster on me. How much difference is there for you? Tough to tell without testing.

Comfort is a consideration, though, as discomfort can have a negative effect on performance.


I wouldn't say this is necessarily the case. The MET Drone as Frodeno used last year has a huge frontal area but if you have a good aero position it is hitting the clean air before it hits your shoulders and tested most aero for him for years without sponsorship. As long as it doesn't increase your total frontal area in regard to the wind the larger frontal area can be faster. I would say you are desperate for seconds if you downsize a helmet based on being worried about its aerodynamics.

http://www.220triathlon.com/gear/gear-guides/tt-bike-helmets-6-of-the-best-reviewed/9031-2.html
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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You misunderstand. If the frontal area of a large is larger than the frontal area of a medium (same helmet), there's a likely chance the drag will increase for an individual athlete. In fact, if you were just to test helmet vs helmet w/o a human head inside, it would absolutely have a higher CdA. It would have to as it's a larger frontal area.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Darn, that means my size 8 melon is always gonna be slower :-( ... of course my friends love 'drafting' off of me as my head leaves a pretty big wake ... Ha!
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [bloodyshogun] [ In reply to ]
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I have the same size head (59) as you and can squeeze into a medium Giro but very few other brands. A very respected fitter told me that one can compress the foam at pinch points, with your thumb, to make a tight helmet fit and a smaller size helmet is always faster .

But of course that would be against the rules.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [SteveM] [ In reply to ]
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Is there any difference between a Giro Advantage and a Giro Advantage 2? I have the Advantage.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed if you just tested helmets it would have a significant impact but real world with a person inside changes it and as with a bigger frontal area may be faster. As with the link I sent the head up and head down a better indication for people worried about aerodynamics.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [ In reply to ]
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Anyone do any testing with the Scott cadence plus? Great looking bucket IMO. Works for keinle as well.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
Born Aero wrote:
Head up


I am a visor helmet triathlete all the way. I am more a head down rider and I have a collection of helmets but personally the Catlike Rapid is getting used more often then not purely based on it is as cool as not wearing a visor time trial helmet. I live in Australia and most races are hot and you may get away with a 70.3 but if you race Ironman I just want to get the helmet off by the end as it gets warm and become claustrophobic. I have done Ironmans in Giro Selector, Rudy Wing 57, Lazer Wasp, Giro Air Attack and the Catlike Rapid. I rode the Rapid at Kona this year and was even fine there. Aero aside the Catlike is the most versatile helmet and if you are head up you really don't need a tail so aero gains are minimal. If you ride in cooler races then I'd go based on looks and price.

http://aerogeeks.com/2016/08/03/catlike-rapid-tri-review/

Shambolic, I rode with the catlike rapid this season and loved it, great ventilation. But I hasd issues at IM events with visor coming off in transition bag and it takes too long to fiddle fitting back on in a race. In the end I resorted to putting the case in bag, but that's not great either as can split bag with wetsuit in. Any experience\tips?
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jubbely] [ In reply to ]
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I've only had it is a transition bag once but I am extra vigilant about how it is placed on top of everything to not get the visor dirty and nothing pressing against it and had no issues. I pull it out the bag before tipping anything out. All other races my helmet has been at the bike. I guess take that second to make sure it is secure as you put it on. Those seconds that feel a lot longer than they are?
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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What do you feel is the best option for a "head down" most of the time 40km person.... I find I put out more power head down and go faster....just me.
Years of doing this as a roadie make change hard....


My gut says:


Aerohead MIPS?

Bambino"

Other - am I missing anything important (POC...etc.)?


I prefer the idea of a visor.

Thanks.

jeff
Last edited by: jcb-memphis: Dec 26, 17 12:45
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
You misunderstand. If the frontal area of a large is larger than the frontal area of a medium (same helmet), there's a likely chance the drag will increase for an individual athlete. In fact, if you were just to test helmet vs helmet w/o a human head inside, it would absolutely have a higher CdA. It would have to as it's a larger frontal area.

I have seen large helmets test faster than their smaller counterparts...
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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Grill wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
You misunderstand. If the frontal area of a large is larger than the frontal area of a medium (same helmet), there's a likely chance the drag will increase for an individual athlete. In fact, if you were just to test helmet vs helmet w/o a human head inside, it would absolutely have a higher CdA. It would have to as it's a larger frontal area.


I have seen large helmets test faster than their smaller counterparts...

I would assume that if this is true for some people, its must smooth out the air flow around the transition from the helmet to the body?

BoulderCyclingCoach.com
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [rockdude] [ In reply to ]
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rockdude wrote:
Grill wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
You misunderstand. If the frontal area of a large is larger than the frontal area of a medium (same helmet), there's a likely chance the drag will increase for an individual athlete. In fact, if you were just to test helmet vs helmet w/o a human head inside, it would absolutely have a higher CdA. It would have to as it's a larger frontal area.


I have seen large helmets test faster than their smaller counterparts...

I would assume that if this is true for some people, its must smooth out the air flow around the transition from the helmet to the body?

Agreed, kinda like the met drone
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
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Jim,

Any testing done yet on the Smith Podium TT?? I have worn mine several times this year, and I really like it. But, I have no idea if it's fast compared to others.

Your insight would be very helpful.

Thanks,

Team Zoot-Texas, and Pickle Juice
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Taugen] [ In reply to ]
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I am also curious about the Smith. Anyone seen any independent CdA numbers?

I mostly prefer head down with some peeking, however crowded races require more heads up.

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Taugen] [ In reply to ]
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I tested the Smith Podium with Jim in February... Again, it’s personal so you may get different results, but the Aerohead was 2W faster on my case...
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
We might be coming to the age of "peak aero" when it comes to helmets as most of the new stuff is all testing within a watt or two of each other. At this point, multiple tests are necessary for many athletes to tease out any real differences. Specific to your desire for helmets with Visors, The Aerohead, Oakley Aro 7, P09 (even with visor is still good), and Specialized S-Works are all good on most athletes. Bambino is a crap shoot for sure; great when it works, but not much better than a regular road helmet when it doesn't. In fact, the Infinity is probably an overall more consistent performer. Haven't tested the new Mistral yet

Since it's going to come up. I think I'm the only person to test the Aro 7 outside of Oakley. 3-4 tests so far and it's looking pretty good, though right there with the Aerohead and P09, so no real gains. Still, it's very good and the visor quality is excellent. Not much else I can talk about just yet when it comes to the Oakleys. I will say, it looks to the eye much smaller than it is. The medium looks very small until you put it on and realize there's a lot of room in there. I would say sizes are pretty normal.

Thanks for this data. I just keep looking at the ARO 7 and it doesn't "look" fast to me. Any more data at this time as I am tempted but it is very expensive so I sort of was hoping for your wisdom on this. My other plan was to get a specialized s works tt helmet and use glasses...supposedly as fast as with the visor but a lot cooler (temperature-wise).

I have a giro aerohead mips and I find it hot and heavy (neck hurts) - the front loaded nature of it is just odd and I don't train in my tt helmet - is the ARO 7 cool/light.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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I got an aerohead and used it a few days ago

Wow I really like it. The fit is great and so adjustable

The field of view is huge. I really like it.

I only do sprint so the following is a non issue for me
BUT the amount of sweating on my head was crazy.

It was so bad when I went around a tight corner at least a couple tablespooons of sweat came out the side of the helmet.

I’ve never had sweat come down my face except for with the aerohead.

After just 45 minutes of hard riding my hair looked like I had just gotten out of the shower and towel dried

I would never use it if I was going to race a hot Olympic or longer race

But for me I am SUPER happy and glad I got it.
Last edited by: RBR: Jul 4, 18 11:25
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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jcb-memphis wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
We might be coming to the age of "peak aero" when it comes to helmets as most of the new stuff is all testing within a watt or two of each other. At this point, multiple tests are necessary for many athletes to tease out any real differences. Specific to your desire for helmets with Visors, The Aerohead, Oakley Aro 7, P09 (even with visor is still good), and Specialized S-Works are all good on most athletes. Bambino is a crap shoot for sure; great when it works, but not much better than a regular road helmet when it doesn't. In fact, the Infinity is probably an overall more consistent performer. Haven't tested the new Mistral yet

Since it's going to come up. I think I'm the only person to test the Aro 7 outside of Oakley. 3-4 tests so far and it's looking pretty good, though right there with the Aerohead and P09, so no real gains. Still, it's very good and the visor quality is excellent. Not much else I can talk about just yet when it comes to the Oakleys. I will say, it looks to the eye much smaller than it is. The medium looks very small until you put it on and realize there's a lot of room in there. I would say sizes are pretty normal.


Thanks for this data. I just keep looking at the ARO 7 and it doesn't "look" fast to me. Any more data at this time as I am tempted but it is very expensive so I sort of was hoping for your wisdom on this. My other plan was to get a specialized s works tt helmet and use glasses...supposedly as fast as with the visor but a lot cooler (temperature-wise).

I have a giro aerohead mips and I find it hot and heavy (neck hurts) - the front loaded nature of it is just odd and I don't train in my tt helmet - is the ARO 7 cool/light.

I have an AO7, White, medium that I am willing to sell. I will go over and post it in the Classifieds. I wore it one time at the Chattanooga 70.3 in May. It is an excellent helmet, and light. It just doesn't fit me correctly as it is unisex (male) style. A medium fits my head, but I am female, 5' 3" and race at 115 lbs. So, the shield comes over my entire nose. It was a very hot race, and I didn't notice it being hot either. Visibility is amazing. If you are interested, PM me.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. One of your athletes you coach used a Rudy Project Wingspan for some time, and used a Bambino to win 2 National titles thus far in 2018. Yet you said they were basically slow. I take it he would fall into that small % that tested faster with them?
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [RBR] [ In reply to ]
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That is what I have found with aero helmets is basically how long can you endure it. I've commented earlier in this thread about the Catlike Rapid Tri and how cool it is and my other go to is the Met Drone purely because the volume of air around your head it is bearable in a not too extreme heat IM and well looks more aero. What I'm waiting for is the new Met. I've seen them call it a Drone but I'll guess we'll see when Met release it to the public. Same visor style as the Aerohead but with some vents and hopefully some cooler aspects of the Drone? It has a shorter tail and shaped a bit like the new Kask.


Best pic's I can find...


https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/diego-ulissi-italian-cyclist-of-uae-team-emirates-during-news-photo/973552812#diego-ulissi-italian-cyclist-of-uae-team-emirates-during-the-start-of-picture-id973552812


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/dauphine-dan-martin-gets-confidence-boost-for-tour-de-france-team-time-trial/
Last edited by: Shambolic: Jul 4, 18 22:20
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
That is what I have found with aero helmets is basically how long can you endure it. I've commented earlier in this thread about the Catlike Rapid Tri and how cool it is and my other go to is the Met Drone purely because the volume of air around your head it is bearable in a not too extreme heat IM and well looks more aero. What I'm waiting for is the new Met. I've seen them call it a Drone but I'll guess we'll see when Met release it to the public. Same visor style as the Aerohead but with some vents and hopefully some cooler aspects of the Drone? It has a shorter tail and shaped a bit like the new Kask.


Best pic's I can find...


https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/diego-ulissi-italian-cyclist-of-uae-team-emirates-during-news-photo/973552812#diego-ulissi-italian-cyclist-of-uae-team-emirates-during-the-start-of-picture-id973552812


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/dauphine-dan-martin-gets-confidence-boost-for-tour-de-france-team-time-trial/

I also have the Louis Garneau Superleggera and could wear hat all day.

For me the aerohead is a sauna but as I say I only do sprints now so not an issue

I do believe the LG may be more aero for me because of my position. I have to work on it
Last edited by: RBR: Jul 5, 18 5:50
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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at the moment for 70.3 an IM i've used a giro air attack shield (with a really good visor) but it's 5 years old and for the next IM i'm looking for something more aero....but i'd like to wear it even in training sessions and i'd like to use something with no (or really short) tail.

I love the oakley but 500$ it's too much for me...so i'd like something like catlike, aerohead (but it is a bit 'extreme' as an every day helmet)..something with integrated visor...
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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If you're considering Specialized, why not get the LG P09? Just as fast if not faster on most with much better venting. That helmet is still a no-brainer.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
If you're considering Specialized, why not get the LG P09? Just as fast if not faster on most with much better venting. That helmet is still a no-brainer.


Thanks.

Unlike pro bikers, many of us have broad shoulders/upper bodies ....so your testing data and insights are really helpful.
And, to be honest, if the Met Wide Body Drone were sold here I'd buy that and be done.

Your reply raises a few questions for me:

1. Is the P09 data you note (it being a no brainer) with the plug pulled out (open hole) in the front and with or without the lens? The new slightly fatter version (after the recall)?
2. Is the Oakley faster than the P09? (and were your Oakey tests on the short tailed, consumer version....?) For now, ignore the dollars as just the training time and travel wipe out the issues - I want a helmet that is fast and cool. The aerohead mips is not doing it for me for whatever reason despite the happy posts by many....too hot. I am older now and seem to have gotten increasingly sensitive to overheating in the last few years.

I am sort of hoping the Oakley is fast and cool. The tail just looks too short to my eye (it looks like a bambino 3). I am almost willing to go Vanquish....for really hot races.


Again, thanks!

Jeff
Last edited by: jcb-memphis: Jul 5, 18 7:49
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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jcb-memphis wrote:
.... I am almost willing to go Vanquish....for really hot races.

I'm thinking of doing the same. I've had a P-09 in the past and found I was getting too hot in it. Granted, I did not have that front plug pulled out, maybe that would have helped. I currently use a Smith Podium, and that can get toasty too.
I tried on the Oakley ARO7, and the fit is odd, squeezes the very top of the head, and the magnets holding the visor on don't inspire confidence at all...
I've wondered about the Catlike Rapid Tri helmet, which is also pretty short tailed.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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jcb-memphis wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
If you're considering Specialized, why not get the LG P09? Just as fast if not faster on most with much better venting. That helmet is still a no-brainer.
And, to be honest, if the Met Wide Body Drone were sold here I'd buy that and be done.



Jeff

Where is ‘here’?

https://www.bikeinn.com/...BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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The P09 shouldn't even come with the plug. It's faster without it, and the best vented aero helmet out there when it's pulled. I always think this is common knowledge, but I forget how long that helmet's been out, so many folks just don't know.

Most of the top aero helmets are pretty close if your position is good. Oakley, Giro, LG, Specialized, etc., etc. With good positions, we're just not seeing large differences between them, and multiple tests will often have them switching order as far as which is fastest with the results all within the margin of error. If your position isn't good, well, that's a whole different story.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
The P09 shouldn't even come with the plug. It's faster without it, and the best vented aero helmet out there when it's pulled. I always think this is common knowledge, but I forget how long that helmet's been out, so many folks just don't know.

Most of the top aero helmets are pretty close if your position is good. Oakley, Giro, LG, Specialized, etc., etc. With good positions, we're just not seeing large differences between them, and multiple tests will often have them switching order as far as which is fastest with the results all within the margin of error. If your position isn't good, well, that's a whole different story.


Super thank you.

Any of them that are US legal typically better at a large shouldered but flat backed person....properly fitted, etc. Hitting the same target if you will as the MET Drone Wide Body for shoulder coverage. We cannot buy the MET Drone WB in the USA and use it (link above appreciated and pm'd). The P-09 sure hits the mark in dollars....and suggested temp control.


jeff
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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jcb-memphis wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
The P09 shouldn't even come with the plug. It's faster without it, and the best vented aero helmet out there when it's pulled. I always think this is common knowledge, but I forget how long that helmet's been out, so many folks just don't know.

Most of the top aero helmets are pretty close if your position is good. Oakley, Giro, LG, Specialized, etc., etc. With good positions, we're just not seeing large differences between them, and multiple tests will often have them switching order as far as which is fastest with the results all within the margin of error. If your position isn't good, well, that's a whole different story.


Super thank you.

Any of them that are US legal typically better at a large shouldered but flat backed person....properly fitted, etc. Hitting the same target if you will as the MET Drone Wide Body for shoulder coverage. We cannot buy the MET Drone WB in the USA and use it (link above appreciated and pm'd). The P-09 sure hits the mark in dollars....and suggested temp control.


jeff

Anyone know if the MET drone legal for US triathlons?
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [RBR] [ In reply to ]
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Except for competitions with exceptions (Kona...), no.

I contacted MET and they said no.....



They have CE (world save US), not the US approvals.

Sort of too bad for us...it was a fast helmet if you kept in position for broad shoulders...wish other vendors focused on the broad shoulders too (and were fast)....not sure if the aerohead is but given the suggestions here it probably is actually faster than the MET anyway.

My plan is to train in the head with a terribly hot helmet. Get acclimated...and then see what happens.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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jcb-memphis wrote:
Except for competitions with exceptions (Kona...), no.

I contacted MET and they said no.....



They have CE (world save US), not the US approvals.

Sort of too bad for us...it was a fast helmet if you kept in position for broad shoulders...wish other vendors focused on the broad shoulders too (and were fast)....not sure if the aerohead is but given the suggestions here it probably is actually faster than the MET anyway.

My plan is to train in the head with a terribly hot helmet. Get acclimated...and then see what happens.



Update:


Have the following helmets and have tested them on the same bike with the same clothing with the same wind conditions just going downhill in the same hand position. Head down but not turtled. Exact same hand position on the bards. Fingers too...same position.
All data based on 2 descents, gps speed via wahoo bolt.

The V is my "terminal velocity" - it is not a very steep hill, a roller if you will. Temp was 92F. Humidity 100%. Wind under 2mph. Brutal in the sun. Start at the top of the hill is exactly at 21.0mph in a steady state. This is the best I can afford to do.

Ballista: 28.9, 29.2 "cool, quiet, very light" Oakley evzeros.

Giro Aerohead Mips: 30.1, 31.0 "hot and moist, quiet, heavy" Visor

Giro Vanquish 29.5, 30.5 "cool, quiet, neutral weight" Visor

Kask Bambino Pro 29.9, 30.6 "hot and moist, quiet, very light" Visor

Specialized S works TT 32.5, 33.1 "medium, very loud, very light" Oakley evzeros (no plan to use the visors)



Conclusions:

N of 1 data. My shape is not your shape. One person. Trying to be fast and "the same" but who knows....if a few mm up or down on the saddle nose...


I am moving to a mostly two helmet plan for tt's: Super hot race and training: Vanquish with visor. Racing (if it matters): The S-works TT. Acclimation training, the S-works so at least 1-2x a week with it. For me, my position, and my needs, this is the best set of options. For a triathlete the S-works is not trivial to get on/off, but with practice it can be done quickly. For me, the lightness and sans visor coolness trump the hastle. And I have big ears. Went with light colors on the Vanquish (white) and S-works (silver). Probably does not matter, but overheating for me has been an issue in the the aerohead mips in black.

I had the P-09 in the past and the post-recall ones got fat.

I was really surprised the S-works, an older design, was just so much faster at least for me. I have broad shoulders and a flat back and have had a racing license for a long time.....my focus is TTs. Perhaps there is not a lot left to gain since 2012....the s-works people certainly did a great job. McClaren too.

I was also surprised that if I had my head up, most of the helmets slow you the same/ a little but the aerohead seems to just kill your speed. Did not measure this well, but if your position is not head down now, the aerohead might be a really bad choice for some based on this N of 1.

The Ballista looks a lot nicer than the vanquish, so I plan to keep it for social events like team rids and hill training in groups. It and the evade are much nicer looking for road racing. The Vanquish is growing on me.

The Bambino is the nicest in quality followed by the vanquish. The S-works is a little rough around the edges, literally. And it is newest in terms of ownership.

The aerohead is too heavy and hot for my liking...if they lowered the weight and got more air into it....maybe. The Scott at the TdF that was camouflaged at the TTT was perhaps this kind of option.

The noise of the S-works is like a disk wheel's noise...it makes you feel faster maybe too. At least how it makes me feel. Good luck.

I have no conflicts to report. Just an old bike racer with a day job.
Last edited by: jcb-memphis: Aug 9, 18 6:33
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting, the fatter p09 might actually be good for you given the broader shoulders, kinda like the MET. Any chance you have a pic of your position?
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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You’ve gone to a lot of effort there. May I suggest a more reliable test approach? If you have files for those runs from a Garmin or similar you can do this with that data:

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...g_Protocol_P3536905/

Developing aero, fit and other fun stuff at Red is Faster
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [ In reply to ]
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Just came here to comment on helmet size and some of the older comments on frontal area. You have to consider the head position so that if you're low and turtling there is a component of area that disapears. When A is gone Cd is what's left and that is driven by pressure drag. Think of it as an IR heat map, where high pressure is red and low pressure is blue. Your ultimate goal is try to minimize total pressure differential so you should start by addressing the brightest red areas (high pressure, smoothen transitions) and deepest blue ones (low pressure, fill gaps or manage flow). I think this image makes it easy to understand how helmets can easily test differently for everyone and a larger helmet can indeed be more aero.

____________________________________
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is up to you.
Last edited by: Runorama: Aug 10, 18 4:28
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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Curious how you like the Giro Vanquish? I've been eyeing one up for the season and found a couple reviews, but curious if they are as good as they look? Thanks!

Go where you feel most alive. |TriHub
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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jcb-memphis wrote:
Have the following helmets and have tested them on the same bike with the same clothing with the same wind conditions just going downhill in the same hand position. Head down but not turtled. Exact same hand position on the bards. Fingers too...same position.
All data based on 2 descents, gps speed via wahoo bolt.

The V is my "terminal velocity" - it is not a very steep hill, a roller if you will. Temp was 92F. Humidity 100%. Wind under 2mph. Brutal in the sun. Start at the top of the hill is exactly at 21.0mph in a steady state. This is the best I can afford to do.

Ballista: 28.9, 29.2 "cool, quiet, very light" Oakley evzeros.
Giro Aerohead Mips: 30.1, 31.0 "hot and moist, quiet, heavy" Visor
Giro Vanquish 29.5, 30.5 "cool, quiet, neutral weight" Visor
Kask Bambino Pro 29.9, 30.6 "hot and moist, quiet, very light" Visor
Specialized S works TT 32.5, 33.1 "medium, very loud, very light" Oakley evzeros (no plan to use the visors)

Sorry, but even a light wind will mess up your data big time. There is no way the SWorks is 3mph faster in reality.

If you don't have a PM and want to stick with this protocol, I'd suggest picking 2 helmets you like the best, and do at least 8 runs with each, alternating the helmets each time. That isn't necessarily going to be enough for you to conclude anything, but you can probably tell if the protocol is viable for a reasonable time investment.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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jcb-memphis wrote:
gps speed via wahoo bolt.

GPS is only accurate to within 5 to 10 meters (16 to 33 feet) under normal conditions - nowhere as accurate as using a manually entered wheel circumference value that was carefully measured from a wheel roll-out. GPS accuracy is even worst on a slope.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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RichardL wrote:
jcb-memphis wrote:
gps speed via wahoo bolt.


GPS is only accurate to within 5 to 10 meters (16 to 33 feet) under normal conditions - nowhere as accurate as using a manually entered wheel circumference value that was carefully measured from a wheel roll-out. GPS accuracy is even worst on a slope.

You're correct that wheel odometry is far more accurate. But that GPS position error isn't randomly distributed, so the error in velocity can be much less than you might think. For example if you start in position 1 that is 10m to the left of the "real position" then cycle 100m, the error is likely to still be around 10m to the left, so the error in distance/time might be pretty small relative to absolute position error. It's not 10m in some totally different direction (assuming a clear view of the sky - once there's multipath all bets are off).
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