It's the Internet what do you think?

Id say that there are some cheaters in regards to either zpower or "ideal weight" users. However, for the most part its a great training tool to keep motivation on rides/races.

I'm in the C group as well and struggle on climbs with an FTP of 3.8w/kg.
My buddies in the B Group have an FTP of between 4.2 and 4.7 w/kg and sometimes do well and sometimes finish mid-pack.
I know there are a ton of top tier riders out there (cat 1/Domestic pro) that hang in the A Group and are near 5.0 watts/kg

I think its a pretty fair measuring stick in that regard. Its easy to go out to a local ride and feel strong.. but when you get all the top riders from each area it really puts things in perspective with those group races. I love it.

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COROS Sports Science

You have to take any and all zwift races with a grain of salt (currently) because so many things you don't know that are variables, and that's assuming they are racing with power (and not zpower which opens up even more questions)

Does the person have a smart trainer? What kind of power meter? Is it set up right? Do they calibrate? Does it estimate?

I normally categorize myself as a B (around 4w/kg ftp) sometimes I end the ride with the A group, other times I end up with a bunch of "C" riders minutes ahead of me. It's just part of it right now.

That said, you are riding with people across the world, and to have the means/time/investment to play a dedicated cycling game you would have to expect a lot of them are more than casual cyclists. So there are likely some real beasts on.

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I have found my Tacx Vortex is giving about an 8% increase in watts over my Stages PM. I haven't raced on Zwift yet but I have altered my weight to hang with slower or faster group rides. I find it hard to find a group that is at my 3 to 3.5 w/kg at the times I can ride. If it's a recovery day and there is a <2w/kg group I'll add 10lbs and I'm not shooting off the front. That being said, it can be frustrating to see someone fly by at 8w/kg, and hold 5.5w/kg for entire lap on Z-Power.

I've wondered this before when someone blows by at 10+watt/kg and keeps holding it.

I got passed by the USS group ride and they were all holding 4-5+. I felt like:
http://33.media.tumblr.com/...kKN1r29i3uo4_400.gif

I ride on the pointy end in the A group of my local scene, but I too find that the Zwift races tend to be humbling. I like the challenge and have an FTP of about 4.7 w/kg but I think I'm going to race the B races to see if that is more reasonable. I don't think there is necessarily so much cheating as the talent pool is worldwide and quite a bit deeper. Also a one hour race with punchy climbs isn't my strength. There is a 65km or ~2 hour race on Jan 27 (Zwifta bianchi) that should be interesting to see if that format changes the dynamic a little.

It's a combination in your case. 1) There are a lot of people on Zwift who don't have real power meters so fudge the system by using BS weight with BS "Z Power". 2) A 3.6w/kg FTP is middle of the road so it's not unrealistic that 50% of the users are both faster and slower than you.

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I agree that it is a great training tool and adds a fun dimension to indoor winter riding.

I haven't paid much attention to how many riders with zpower//virtual power are on the system- as well as the calibration variables also mentioned.

I'd be really pleased if is simply a lot of riders that are strong. That puts my fitness in perspective and will certainly motivate me more.

I've got both a CycleOps PowerBeam trainer and a Pioneer PM I can/have used. With both calibrated properly my PowerBeam gives me about 0.5w/kg extra at ftp over the Pioneer. That's not a Zwift thing, it's not intentional, it's just that my PowerBeam reads high.

The 2 hour race would be interesting. If you lose the peloton it would be a world of hurt trying to catch up for 50km.

Probably a combination of strong riders, miscalibrated power meters, wrong virtual power (wheel slipping, tension wrong, wrong trainer selected), defective smart trainers, and finally people who accidentally or deliberately entered wrong info like their weight.

The trouble is, there's no way to know who's who and who does what on the Internet. We are all just a screen name and an avatar.

Reminds me of the saying. The Internet! Where men are men. Women are men. And teenage girls are undercover cops.

I do the USS group rides on Sundays. I average about 280 watts for the ride which is a little over an hour long and I weigh 170lbs. So that is definitely not world class level by a long stretch, but it is a fairly fast group ride.

Having said that, there are a LOT of Zpower riders that have completely unrealistic times on climbs, etc.

I have ridden with the USS group the last two Sunday's and I believe the majority of those riders are playing fair. There was a 23 yr old pro in that group the Sunday before last and he was killing us. Dropped me before the end of the first lap. Both time that I rode with them we formed a second group and finished at around a 3.5 average. It's not a race so I didn't care. Still had a great workout and was gassed at the end. A heck of a lot more fun then sitting on the trainer watching football.

Yeah, I actually meant that as two separate comments, didn't mean to imply the whole group was cheating or something. It was just crazy to see the comments of where they were and knowing they were getting close, then just being completely enveloped and passed. There are definitely some folks on there that are very talented/well trained.

It's one of the most ridiculous things about "competing" on Zwift. Want to go faster? Just weigh less.

They should add a "Validated Rider" feature, where the user gets a special badge or token added if they step on an ANT+ scale before the ride and record their weight. But even that is subject to fudging.

The ANT+ or at least a WiFi scale like a FitBit scale that is linked to Zwift might be required to race. But then again, a little assist by a towel rack when you're stepping on the scale might help shed a few pounds. So there is really no way to police it. I do know that a guy that is running one of the TT's is reviewing peoples Zwift and Strava profiles to see if the racers are all of a sudden finding unusual speed and power numbers on race day.

Didn't think you were accusing anyone of anything. I know that some of the games more seasoned riders were in that group. Which is why I'm going to try to hang with them this offseason as long as I can. Just like in real life, the best way to get fast is ride with stronger riders. At least this way I'm not left alone on an unfamiliar road trying to navigate my way home. My ego can handle being dropped in a video game. If you are riding next Sunday and you see us coming try and jump on. I'll be looking forming a second group at some point.

Don't forget that there's a "the other checkout line is faster than mine" bias going on - we tend to focus on the people passing us rather than the people we pass. Keep in mind too that if you're a triathlete, you're also dividing your time between 3 sports. There should be a class of cyclists who, all else equal, kick our butts.

I have no doubt that people are fudging the numbers though, even if it is the less serious "this is my ideal race weight" which gets input. The best metric is vs yourself, or vs a group of riders who are at the same "virtual" ability - however that is defined.

I'll bet its a lot of virtualpower miscalculations. Before I went Kickr/Powermeter, my Cycelops "virtualpower" pegged me at FTP of 300. Then I got a powermeter, and it was sad to see the real numbers were nowhere near as high...

People are either intentionally cheating (whether with Z-power or their own PM), or else have horribly calibrated setups, or else Zwift's algorithms are not very reflective of the real world.

There's no doubt that really good racers are on there, and tend to rise to the top. But even some really good (not elite) amateur racers are putting up numbers that are at UCI-pro level. Sorry, I just don't believe it.

Zwift should publish the numbers needed to hit certain KOM and lap time levels. When you see someone who's a Cat 5 on USA Cycling putting up sub 12 lap times (then doing 12 min laps over and over), 1:30 KOM times (on the Watopia course) then something is up. And that is with a PM, not Z-power.

Seems to have gotten even worse since being out of Beta.

Good luck! If I see you guys again I'll try to hang. You're right, much easier to get dropped there than in real life!

All good points.

I guess I'll have to wait for Zwift for to work with my treadmill and connect to my tubing (aka poor man's vasa) before really figuring my out my virtual excellence or lack thereof ;)

If a rider has a public profile on Strava its pretty easy to see where they really are. I watched a guy fly around the course and collect all three jerseys at a 5.5w/kg average. He was either pared to a PM or smart trainer. I looked at a couple rides of his from the summer on Strava and he was averaging 165W and 17mph. Now he's a cat 1 on Zwift.

On the FB group you see people saying they are moderate (17-18 mph) in real life, but doing well over 20 in Zwift world. Others credit that to not having to stop for lights, etc. etc. So, in addition to the % that always find ways to cheat, there seem to be number of people with miscalibrated/inaccurate setups that are creating a class of bikers that are (IMHO) fooling themselves a bit. For the most part, I just ignore all of that and worry about my own numbers and how they compare over time; but it does get a little discouraging to see so many that are routinely doing 4,5,6 on up to 10 or more w/k on a sustained basis.

Of course, that just makes it all the more "real"; since it mimics the course cutters, dopers, and drafters :)

V-doping or not, what you're experiencing is people cat'ing down which ironically is what you're doing. It's pretty common and continues to worsen. For example: in a recent race, the majority of D's were riding at B level. Think about how the true D racers feel when basically the entire group leaves them in the dust on the flats at the beginning of every race.

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Nanoo Nanoo

This is why I include my IRL race category and license number in my Strava profile. I "won" the Euro training A race last Thursday and didn't get too much static about it, but when I've had people ask about my performance I generally just point them in the direction of actual results or ride files that can back up what I do on the trainer. I also don't ride with a heart rate monitor so that makes people suspicious at times.

I think instead of trying to fix "cheating", Zwift should just give the community the ability to organize races or leagues that are self governed. I'd rather they focus on big picture functionality than micro managing training races.

Wonder what they assume is a proper power-to-CdA for everyone?

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AndyF
bike geek

Not a Zwift'er (live somewhere I can bike year-round), but this seems the most sensible. End goal is to have a good workout and proper drag race (motivation that is so hard to find on a trainer), so even if there's a bunch of folks gaming the system/miscalibrated/etc, who really cares? (Answer, a lot of people, honestly!) At some point, legit riders will still be legit riders and Zwift kings/queens will abruptly strike reality.

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The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

I had looked at the results and avg speeds of some of the prior races and I did feel bad about putting myself in a lower group than is recommended. I didn't feel so bad after the race.

What is the best way to improve this? Maybe the top ten of cat D, C and B should all be moved up a group respectively. This may make the groups more honest than just bumping up the top rider.

My outdoor group rides often have power numbers equal or higher than my Zwift rides. In fact, for similar ride times, my outdoor ride Intensity scores on Strava are almost always higher. I assume because there are many more short jumps of speed/high wattage in real life.

Zwift rides/races on the other hand have much lower wattage spikes and are much closer to racing a flat or rolling TT than a crit or road race.

Don't feel bad. It sucks to get dropped early in a race and I'm guessing that is one of the reasons people cat down. It's pretty common to read a post where someone got dropped so they are downgrading. You just have to keep in mind that everyone except the winner gets dropped (and sometimes even the eventual winner gets dropped early on). Because there's no points/series/prizes behind any of this, it might be best to just do what works best for you until Zwift creates a race module.

If I were hosting a race series, I wouldn't have any Categories but I would award points. Although a little off-topic, I'd have 2 neutral rider leaders, one you should pace off of and ideally be behind (in-game name of LEADER-LEADER-LEADER or something really obvious) and one 5 or so seconds up the road that you are DQ'd if you are ahead of when the neutral first ends (in-game name of DQ-DQ-DQ-DQ-DQ-DQ). Races starts would be communicated through TeamSpeak.

My hopes are that when a race module is introduced that there'll be official Cat's or a rating similar to ftp associated with each rider's profile that can be upgraded based on performances. Organizers could then define their categories based on this rating and even allow for overlap to account for those that want the option of riding with a slower or faster group.

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Nanoo Nanoo

A little off topic, but there seems to be enough Slowtwitch folks on Zwift to have a group ride.

Kinda boring with all of us in the aerobars staying 4 bike lengths apart. ;)

Don't worry everyone, I am on almost every day slaying the V-dopers and taking the lap-jersey with real power numbers and a real weight. I can't touch those ridiculous KOMs and sprints some times but I can usually outlast the cheaters. I also have a clean record for the century on Richmond, so that's something.

Front door bragging aside, yeah the cheaters suck. Bothers me even more when they defend doing 450w for 2 hours on their Strava file and get indignant about it. Such is life.

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LOL .... True. Then this ride would have to be draft legal .... And on, god forbid ..... road bikes.

I did two A races. I got dropped.

I did a B race. I got dropped.

Now I don't do Zwift at all. Youtube is much more enjoyable.

I'm a cat 1 in real life.

So I just have to set my mag trainer to 1, lie about my weight and kick some ass for a false sense of accomplishment.

So, where is the biological passport (equivalent) for Zwift? I'm on a TVS with legit weight and a recent FTP test at 3.1 w/kg. Most of the rides I've participated in seem ok, based on w/kg. But I can see the occasional wonky combo of HR and w/kg - perhaps zpower, perhaps honest errors, perhaps something else. Still, I'd rather be in a group that pushes me rather than a ramping down to slay other riders with fabricated data.

I agree...its just so...laughable? Other day I saw a dude blow up a climb at 18-somthing watts/kg. I mean, really?

I can attest to this. I often see Jordano's avatar out there and find it pretty funny when he has the 2nd best time to someone riding with zpower. Yeah right!

Regarding races, I've done a few and generally find it is a great workout and that at least the ones I've tried seem a bit self-regulating. The zpower guys get called out and the guys I ended up working in a group with have some legit looking strava profiles, so it all seemed pretty fair to me. I do think that if you think you are the baddest guy in town based on usually being at the front of your small town local group ride, you are going to find zwift a bit humbling. The talent pool out there is pretty deep.

Interesting feedback on w/kg you've seen for your buddies who did zwift races. I haven't done many, but last Tue I did ZTR-EB (the Euro time fits my schedule better) and finished toward the back of the A (top 10-ish), but well ahead of any of group B, with ~280 watts average for the race at 145 lbs, or around 4.25 w/kg, so I'd actually be at the low end of what you thought of as group B (maybe the US timezone races are harder?). I will say that I've zwifted a lot and worked on my drafting there (definitely a bit of an art to timing efforts to stay in the draft), so maybe I'm doing it more efficiently than average. Regardless of which group you end up in, as long as there is some group that pushes you a bit, I think it is a pretty awesome workout.

yeah people with zPower should have a dif board.

I like it cause I can see my own improvements over time but the leader board is a shit show.

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

This happens alot, I like when local riders post there Zwift workouts on Strava and you know the wattage is total BS. Stava needs to add a new button beside Kudos..."Your kidding yourself"

i-sandbaggin? lol

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

Not to anyone in particular...

While I haven't ridden with a group yet I seem to find someone that is riding my pace after about 20 minutes and then we seem to stick together until one of us is done.

I find it enjoyable to ride with someone like that and just ignore the few people flying by at 8 W/Kg. I may look up some C rides soon just to see what it's like.

jaretj

Not all of us zPower folk are bad. Some of us make a point of ensuring that our power accurately reflects what we can do on the road.

 
Inthinknse people on the training races are definitely lying about there weight or something is up with there power meter. I did the A race las thirsday and was putting out 32-360w in the group before the 1st climb and then up the climb I was hitting 500w breathing out of my ass and all I could do was watch the group ride off.

I'm 77KGs. It's all good Training but I think some of these guys need to race pro cycling. The other week I did watopia reverse and first time up the climb I did around 450 for 4 minutes and a few guys put about 15 seconds into me up the hill. It could be right I don't know but bearing in mind it's a mid week training race I'm surprised by how much power some of the people on there are putting out.

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Triathlete specializing in 70.3 Distance and Ironman.

joeskipper.co.uk

"lying" is a pretty strong accusation there. I do suspect that there may be some slightly "in my favor" fudging, where people have a tendency to enter their "racing weight" and not their current weight. Or maybe just the more simple error that every time they hit a new lowest weight they think to update the weight, but then dismiss higher weights as a one off "mistakes". You would expect a similar thing with power meters. Few people complain, recalibrate carefully, etc if their PM is reading a few watts high, but god forbid it reads a little low and suddenly a full on debug session is on order. But as I said in some other posts, when I look at the resume's of some of the big hitters in the race I did, I was impressed, so some of it is just that there are some beasts out there. From what I've seen of the Cat 1/2 guys I know, 6 w/kg for 4 minutes is not at all crazy and wouldn't be a sign of "lying". That is what they do every week at our local worlds ride.

 
I stand by what I say and think that a lot of them are lying. I'll still do it as it gives me a good workout.

The think is there not doing 6W/kg for 4 minutes I'm doing that after rising at tempo/threshold going Into the climb and I'm getting spat like there's no tomorrow. The tip guys are doing a lot more then that and then still riding at 5w/kg+ for the next 40-50 minutes.

I've raced as an elite on the road in road races in England at premier calandar level and a professional criterium series and i think the standard in them races is higher.

I take it like a pinch of salt and it's improving my cycling so I'll keep going back. Just find it sad how people would take a few kilos off there weight to win a virtual race! Surely the only thing that matters is 'real life' racing.

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Triathlete specializing in 70.3 Distance and Ironman.

joeskipper.co.uk

You tend to notice things that alarm you 10x more than things that don't. It's a survival technique. Danger can kill you, no danger (usually) doesn't, so your brain amplifies odd stuff you don't understand to keep you alive. The people that didn't get alarmed when there was an odd rustle in the bushes often ended up as a lion snack before they could have babies, so they didn't pass that gene down. It's not that everybody is weight doping in Zwift, it's more that you just notice the ones that are far more than those that aren't.

I ride on Zwift according to proper protocol and I seem to be about where I should be. There's the occasional person that zooms buy at 600 mph, but since I don't know why their setup is doing that, I don't worry about it.

Another solution is to enjoy your own ride and don't ride in a roadie pack anyway. Those seem to be a giant clusterf*ck on wheels.

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I'm curious, was this the Euro version on the Richmond course? I won the A race and didn't see anything real sketchy. Like someone else said, there are a lot of us out there who just race bikes including me. I'm a cat 1 and can do the numbers you mentioned and have results against decent pros in time trials. For reference, my normalized power for the bulk of the race was 339w. I weigh 67kg.

Agreed, but seeing people on there I know and have ridden with posting huge numbers which are just not true just pisses me off, so I'm not going back on there, I race some of them regularly so looking forward to racing them in the summer and seeing just how fast they are in the real world!

Check out some of the Strava segments. I love the ones flooded with 700W for 20-30 minutes.

300-400 watts are "lying" numbers in triathlete's minds lol

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

Hammer hit the nail right on the head. Most of the Cs should be in the B group including me and it's everything I can do to finish mid-pack.

Doesn't really matter if you call yourself B or C. All that really matters is if you're in a group against foes of your own ability. Though it does suck trying to figure out which group to start with.

My hope is that when Zwift rolls out races, there will be an automatic leaderboard which places people in the right group - sort of like a matchmaking effort. Win too many games, or post a w/kg higher than a certain threshold, and you move up.

Not responding to anyone in particular, but just my $.02 from a non-subscriber. In any game I've ever played there have been people who cheat and also people who accuse clean players of being cheaters. For a few games I've been good enough to occasionally be called into the 2nd group of a clean player being accused of cheating. Granted, in video games people tend to cry a lot so this isn't really a BDB, anytime you beat someone they'll either think they lost fair and square or that you're a cheater. A lot of people cannot fathom not being the best so they struggle with being beat by other players.

Perhaps all of this doesn't directly correlate to Zwift. I'd like to think that the integrity of people on Zwift would be better than prepubscent 12 year olds playing the latest COD. I imagine some of it still carries over though. There are going to be those who decide on using "ideal" weight instead of "actual" weight, or people who just blatantly cheat so they can get the e-pen.

My stance in video games has always been to have fun. At the end of the day, that's what zwift is. If you're deriving your fun from competition with others than just realize you need to take it with a grain of salt. Some people may be cheating, other's may legitimately be better than you.

My final thought is this: As a non-subscriber i see several local riders on Zwift. Not a single one of them is posting outrageous numbers from what I've seen on the road. So I'm not sure what kind of people these V-dopers are riding with. Glad the local riders in my strava-network at least have some integrity.

A lot of it simply comes down to the inability to verify. zPower/calibration gets highlighted because the ability to fudge the numbers are more blatantly obvious, but the issue is there with weight as well. If someone blows by me, there's no way to know if it was legit or not, and my ego's first assumption is to look anywhere but my own legs for an answer.

Unfortunately in both cases, there is no easy fix

• Limiting zPower shuts out a large segment of your user base, and more importantly, a large segment of your target market (less costly than a controllable trainer or a power meter).
• No cost effective way to verify weight. You could pull data from Strava - but this doesn't stop people from lying to Strava either.

Until both of those are fixed, you're going to get people cheating, and people who think others are cheating.

I cycle with a group on Zwift named ODZ. We host a handful of rides and races every week.

Part of the issue is that riders on Zwift have bought into the belief that w/kg is the best way to break everyone into categories. On the flatter courses w/kg become s'more irrelevant.

We've started classifying everyone based on actual segment times. 3 laps of original Watopia or 2 laps of Richmond.

At least then you're racing against a category with people who have similar time abilities.

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http://www.endurancelab.fit

I race zwift in the A category almost daily. MOST of the racers at the tip of the races are on legitimate setups and have become friendly on FB enough to trust one another having an accurate setup. Allot of the riders have real life friends on their to vouch for their power or have real life results to back their performance. Zpower does come into play from time to time but it is not as common as some people think. When an unbelievable rider plays along we often just ignore them. I know my power and weight is legit so if I'm questioned - I'm honored and will gladly hand over real world race results to back my performance.

Overall you just have to accept it isn't perfect and have fun doing hard work. I would rather do races then hard intervals by myself so I will accept some imperfection for the entertainment part.

I also do ODZ quite often - I'm sure paths have crossed online

C.Schumm...

C.Schumm - M Dangremond here. Glad you enjoy the ODZ rides.

We are hosting two long endurance rides on Sunday mornings - one at 2.5 w/kg and one at 3.0 and sometimes higher. Nice large group rides at steady state.

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http://www.teamodz.com
http://www.endurancelab.fit

Not w/kg but rather w/CdA. That seems to be the thing that the Zwifters who repeat the above are missing. Otherwise the guy who weighs 270lbs and putting out a modest 3 w/kg would just ride me off his wheel on the flats. Oddly enough, that doesn't happen "in real life".

I was on this evening, doing a "TT session" at about the time the Tues training race was starting. It was rather amusing watching all the messages pop up, from guys bitching about cheating and/or sandbagging.

I also discovered, unintentionally, how easy it is for people to boost their wattage via the Kickr spindown. I was getting an extra 40w tonight. So don't rule out that people doing that also -- intentionally or not.

There are also riders that I suspect have modified the slope value on the quarq to goose their watts.

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http://www.teamodz.com
http://www.endurancelab.fit

Are the ODZ rides invite only or open? I don't remember seeing them on the Swift FB page.

The ODZ rides are generally open. We have to date been advertising our coffee and cat and mouse rides on the Zwift Riders Facebook page. We may discontinue doing that and post our rides solely on the Teamup calendar page and our ODZ Facebook page.

The coffee and cat and mouse rides are on Tues and Thurs mornings.

We also have metric century rides on wed and sun mornings.

Message me if you want additional info.

-Mitch

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http://www.teamodz.com
http://www.endurancelab.fit

Not sure that the cheating in the ZTR races is as rampant as some would believe. I've podium'd in a few of the A races and I can tell you I wasn't zipping around at 5wkg.

The racing community seems to be growing, and as mentioned - most of the racers are known RL competitors with very similar results/power outputs outside.

The ones you see zooming around at unbelievable speeds are usually not associated with the events. Most likely oblivious riders on classic trainers..

I had to turn off the group texts because of this. I find the complaining much more irritating than the guys blasting by me at 11 w/kg.

Not to mention the political bent they seem to have lately. I don't need to hear about who you support while I'm working out.

After seeing some ridiculous stuff on zwift, it was nice to go on a real group ride last week and realize I don't suck (that much).

Are people cheating on there... I guess so. I don't Zwift nor do I have the equipment to and honestly at this point I'll probably not even make an effort to stray from my rollers with resistance sweat fest when I work out inside. With this thread in mind I clicked on one of my friends Strava Zwift rides yesterday and checked out some of the KOMs... the first one had someone at 99mph and the next had something similar.

As another poster pointed out, the strava segment leaderboards are meaningless. It is polluted with the (often accidentally) worst configured setup. The "jerseys" used to track the fastest current times for lap/climb/sprint are a little bit better since zwift has some bogo-detection and they only have who is currently on, but they still have a tendency to have some junk data from misconfigured zpower riders (not all, but definitely lots). The races are cleaner still, with a few questionable results, but more accountability since you tend to race with the same people over and over. If someone is an obvious flyer, they are just ignored for the race; no biggie. I think the OP is mainly talking about more subtle zdoping like fudging weights or power meter calibration.

hey a.buzz here ... i've seen you in the EB races a few times. i hate to hijack a thread, but i've found it hard to actually join races. if you pause at the start/finish, the "are you done" window comes up and you can't see anything. if i try to time starting the app on the clock, i usually miss the group. what is the best way?

On the "are you done" screen there is a "back" button. If you click that the screen closes and you can see what is going on while you wait for the race to start.

This.

But Strava is different; no-one abuses the system there.

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29 years and counting

http://road.cc/content/news/84868-digital-epo-smash-your-strava-times%E2%80%A6-cheating

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

Indeed, I should have added a ..... =) or ;-)

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29 years and counting

Tons of virtual dopers. Checked the strava account of all the guys who finished ahead of me (16e out of 154), and 1 seems legit (10e), 2 look not really (no structured training, just racing everyday, which is impossible unless you decrease the resistance of your ht), and the rest had no account, or looked very weak cycloturists. And I know I wouldn't be dropped from firsts (none of them legit) like I was even at an elite level.

I'll don't say give them doubt benefice, because that's what cheaters mythomans want, and ride for : recognition. I personally focus on myself, and precise goals l've to reach (power at any zone). I know from experience there're soooooo many cheaters IRL, at the cost of their money and health (all that to cure their defecting ego). Do you think there'll not be even more virtually, when that doesn't cost people anything ? Cyclits are usually very arrogant (muuuuch more than runners for example) and overestimate themselves (as much their fitness level as their knowledge), that's why they also can justify their cheat, to stay in their delirium. Add to this the "pack group effect" : it's a binary one, dropped or not dropped (and not yourself against the time), and so, you can be the subject of mockery.

There are certainly quite a few guys with suspiciously low weights. So I suspect there are a lot of people faking it.
I'm a little slower than you ATM with about 3.45W/kg since my FTP is around 280W and weight is 81kg (versus 3.65W/kg during the summer with 288W @ 79kg)

When I do events, I use the correct category (B). I'd expect to get dropped by anyone at the upper end of the category, but some folks are going WAY too fast. If you look at their watts they're rarely huge but calculating from their W/kg, their weights are often <50kg. Some guys are that light, but not many. I've come across a suspiciously large number of guys who are producing say 220W but showing say 4.8W/kg. That means they have a weight of 46kg. I find that doubtful!
It's much more likely that the majority of these guys have a weight in the 65-85kg range and their performance is no better than, or worse than mine. But why cheat? I'd get no satisfaction out of "winning" a rigged race.

Regardless, I just pick out some riders doing a similar effort to me and try and beat them, or if they start to fade I pick the next guy up the road and chase them.

I've no doubt. IRL, i'm considered as a small format, with 1.70m and 66kg (63 at top condition ; 8% bf), and in the mentionned race, I came back pretty fast, on flat road, on the 2 guys ahead of me. You can see their size (compare their avatar to yours), and they were about 1.80-1.85m.
And, I came back on them, developping 1.2/1.4w/kg less than they were developping themselves (2.8-3.0w/kg vs 4.2 for the guy on the front), and passed them on my momentum. I don't even know if they felt ridiculous at this moment. Probably not.

As a true cat.D i can say i loose the peloton in the first 2-3 min of the race ,only a handful of actual D rides continue until one by one we burn off from trying to catch up to the Cs and Bs tagged as Ds
Great exercise and training overall, can say all the sprints in the beginning of each race have built up the skinny legs a bit

I'm relatively new to Zwift and am enjoying it. There are always going to be those who cheat, but if you take it for what it is, a fun training tool that makes hours on the trainer more tolerable, then it's amazing. ZwiftPower.com and ZwiftRankings.com have also helped to make it more enjoyable as zwiftpower will automatically bump people into the appropriate category based on their w/kg for the ride (or at least they have historically... it doesn't seem to work for my last couple of races with the updates). I'm a larger rider at 93 kg or so and it's interesting to look at ZwiftRankings and see how much better I do on flat courses than hilly. I signed up for the CVR Tuesday night Crit series and 3x up Box Hill last week just about did me in! To circle back to my original point, it's a fantastic training tool and I've been able to push myself harder trying to keep up with people faster than me... just like real life! I raced Saturday and pushed to the point where I was debating having my wife bring me a bucket but didn't have the energy to yell out for help... race finished up and I had a new FTP, which was awesome! I am on the higher end of the C range at this point and tend to finish middle of the pack. The majority of the people ahead of me look like they should probably be in the B's, but whatever floats their boat. I will have fun trying to catch them and will get faster doing it!

This. I ride the B races with a real power meter 230W FTP / 65 kg. It's a game, people. It doesn't matter where you place (which is typically still not last for me, in Z races). One thing about the Zwift math is that you get a lot of benefit for pack riding. If fall off the back of a pack you need to push 20 to 30 percent more power to get back to it.

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Less is more.

I'm working on another installment of the series of Zwift articles on the ST front page, and did a couple of races as a part of that. I am 185 pounds (83 kg) with an FTP of 220, so a back of the C pack rider at 2.65 watts/kg. I'm using my power meter to provide my power data in an effort to be as accurate as possible.

I tried to have a game plan for my last race - figured the best I could do for a ~40 minute race would be to hold just above FTP. Started too fast just trying to just keep up, but lost the draft and was dropped hard. Towards the end of the race, I was passed by a couple of D riders like I was standing still. Finished dead last for the C group, which is somewhat expected based on my 2.65 watts/kg being just above the 2.5 watts/kg cutoff. Based on the results, I'm finishing mid-pack for the Ds.

There are probably quite a few ways to game the game, either intentionally or unintentionally. I'm just going to ride with integrity and accept my results as they are. Even though the results are frustrating, I still am having a lot of fun doing the races this way. I think this is going to be a regular thing for me.

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

I do wish zwift would do a better job of policing numbers. I know it shouldn't bother me, but it does. I have an FTP of 330 at 165 lbs and am a MOP on zwift. It takes a lot of the fun out of it when you are getting wrecked by a guy who couldn't even hang onto your wheel in real life.

I'm using a KK Road Machine on Zpower. I always use the same tyre, and tyre pressure and roller compression to maintain as much consistency as possible. My results, in terms of achievable power for given periods, times for specific Zwift climbs, and HR correlation with power, are extremely consistent. I'm very confident in the precision of my power figures and I think the accuracy is reasonably good (I'd be surprised if it were 10% off). I don't think it's critical to be accurate unless you're having a Zwift Cat A competition with actual prizes. Consistency and honesty IS important to me.

I keep my weight pretty accurate. I don't adjust it regularly but it's always within about 1kg of current weekly average weight. I have a younger brother who is a significantly better athlete than me. He's been a competitive endurance athlete since he was 6 whereas I only started at 36. We're the same height but he weighs about 63kg while I weigh about 81kg at the moment (it was 88kg so the gap is narrowing!). He recently started using Zwift and in order to now be able to have some friendly races, he occasionally handicaps himself by using a weight of 80kg and we're actually fairly even then. It seems our power levels are reasonably close at the moment. I don't see a problem with that, but reducing weight to win races, especially against people you're not telling you've done it, is completely different.

Really? When you say "MOP" do you mean MOP in the A races? Or are you just sort of talking about riding around in general and seeing people pass you and feeling like that makes you MOP?

I replied to this thread a couple years ago when it started and my experience hasn't changed that much in doing ~100 races. There is no doubt there is some shady stuff going on, but I don't think it is that bad in the A category. No doubt it could be better, but the community does at least some policing. The really big A races seem a bit like Cat 1/2/3 and the smaller A races are a bit like Cat 3 in terms of overall strength. As a Cat 3 myself, this means I am pack fill in those big races, but can compete a bit in the smaller races.

Now the lower category races are a complete mess IMHO. People want to be at the front of the race, so everyone sandbags their numbers to not have to "upgrade". They justify to themselves that they aren't a "true A, or a true B" because they can't stand the idea of joining a race that they have no chance to win. This means that a huge percentage of the field is at or above the suggested category limits. Makes for a pretty stupid race a lot of the time.

I had a Kurt kinetic with smart dongle when I started a couple weeks ago and I was rolling along at 200 + for the hour ride the. I got a kickr and now it's 175 to 190 and it's so much more work. I don't know how to compare to the real world. My last half I averaged 21 mph so I don't know how it all translates still figuring it out but having fun.

I wish they had an online class where they walked newbies through it

Yes, saying "everyone" was hyperbole. It is a significant fraction though and an annoyingly visible fraction because they end up at the front of races. A recurring thread on some of the Zwift racing facebook groups is for someone to post asking for social permission to sandbag because <insert rationalization>. The responses vary quite a lot, which is a little frustrating. Plenty of the responses are of the form "its just a game", "are you getting a good workout", "I payed my $$$, I should get to do whatever I want", "I don't usually put out that high wattage, I just had a good day", etc. Trying to modify this perception is going to be a losing battle. I suspect that some technical "solution" either by Zwift itself or zwiftpower.com will be the only effective way to reduce the sandbagging issue. For example, it would be pretty effective to have people magically disappear if they exceed some category limit. zwiftpower.com can make them vanish from results depending on the race organizers settings.

I've never spent time on the Zwift groups so haven't seen that. It's bizarre that people think it's reasonable to try and rationalise cheating as you describe, and yet it doesn't surprise me!

Having said that, I presume this is specifically in regards to races? Group rides are a different thing entirely. I've often done C or D rides where I would expect to be comfortably able to keep up so long as everyone sticks to the target W/kg. If the ride is described as 30km ride are 2.5W/kg then it doesn't matter if I'm capable of 3.5W/kg so long as I don't use it. I just make sure not to ride off the front or push the pace. Of course I generally don't find them slow, since a lot of guys seem to consider group rides to be races too!

Agree. The now closer coordination between zwift and zwiftpower.com will certainly help. Additionally, zwiftpower's new terms and conditions regarding exposing HR, weight, and FTP metrics and changes to them is a good thing. Improvements in tracking unrealistic changes by potential sandbaggers/cheaters.

Plus, I think zPower (dumb trainer) riders should not be allowed to register in race results. Just too many flyers, unintended or not, out there and too easy to get one's 'calibration' messed up.

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tinman

I've raced quite a bit on zwift and I don't doubt there are people gaming the system, either by going lower cat or adjusting weight (I'll admit I don't spend time analyzing people's weights). I'm an ok cyclist (265 ftp, 3.78 w/kg, although I haven't raced with my recent ftp in a while). I think, with anything, there are always two sides, I think those of us who fall off the back, as I tend to do, like to think that other people are gaming the system, which I think is true to some extent. But I also think we don't use these things to learn where our own weaknesses lie. For me, I can't start well, there have been a few times where I put in the watts and managed to get into the lead a couple of minutes in, but then I can't ride as hard as I can on a steady effort.

I also don't think it's fair to expect zwift to have all these safeguards for races. I know they host a few but otherwise races are organized by KISS or another group, zwift provides the platform for groups but really the policing is done on the tail end with zwiftpower. As much as we'd like to exclude cheaters from starting in the first place (I'm sure they do set the tone for a race even if they are ultimately bumped in zwiftpower), I think that type of stuff is unreasonable to expect of the zwift platform. However (thinking off the top of my head here), if zwift were to allow private password protected events and group rides where organizers could verify and categorize people correctly, then maybe that can go a ways to having a better playing field.

Ha, for your own sanity I would advise not going to the zwift facebook groups.

This weekend I got dropped by the B group after 10 minutes at 345W (4.85w/kg). I'm using Power2Max as my power source. Yeah, Zwift is legit.

The "analysis" is just a matter of watching the other rider for a few moments to see what power they are producing and the corresponding W/kg.

Say you notice they are cruising at 5W/kg and when you watch them you see that corresponds to 240W.
It's a simple mental calculation to say 240/5 = 48kg (which I would consider suspect)

If mental calculations aren't your thing, you'll still get the gist with even a very rough estimate. You don't have to be exact.

I tried Zwift back in the beta test days. Conceptually fun for a lot of people. I have teammates run it all the time. I use VP with my KK Road Machine but I just do simple structured workouts based on my virtual FTP. The true test comes on race day, outside, the REAL DEAL where there's less cheating, I think....

If you can do 4.85w/kg for 10 minutes, why are you in the "B" group? Which race out of curiosity?

I think this is one of the things Zwift racing has struggled with a bit. For a lot of Zwift users, they view Zwift purely as a workout tool and a means to an end, getting faster for their "real" riding IRL. This allows them to justify all kinds of questionable behavior (like riders who basically "troll" others in a race with bogus power, hunting down all break aways, etc). But for a number of people, Zwift racing has become their "end" and for them it is the real deal. I am not 100% in that camp (yet?), but I do very much enjoy Zwift racing as a goal of its own. I still race IRL and am glad it helps prepare me for IRL racing, but that isn't the only reason I do it. I get that may not be your goal, but too many people are unwilling to recognize that it may be someone else's goal and maybe you shouldn't ruin or belittle that.

Very good points. Heh, when I re-read my post I can see where it comes across that way which wasn't my intention. It's clear what Zwift has gotten people to enjoy the indoor riding much more and for a lot of people that has proven to be beneficial come race season. I guess one thing that makes Zwift feel more "honest" is if you ride with people you know, teammates etc. and maybe not pay attention to the others out there throwing down 5 W/kg average for two hours etc.

Honest question, genuinely curious, not an accusation, etc... but if you have power on the road, then you have a PM on your bike, so even though you have a "dumb" trainer, why would you use zPower when you could just use the PM on your bike?

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

Best thing to do with Zwift is if you have a power meter on your bike, use it to track the power (even if you have a smart trainer providing the load). This will ensure that when you get out on the real road, you don't get a surprise one way or the other on your power levels. One thing that I'm finding, though, is that on the flat, Zwift predicts a faster speed than I typically achieve in real life for a given power output, so I guess I need to get a more aero bike... ;)

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Less is more.

I think where it gets real for some people is the fact that there are now race series that have real prizes. That'll always drive people to become a lot more intense about policing. I did just notice that Zwiftpower has implemented a tracker for each rider so that you can see their weight and height fluctuations (Ride profile --> Zwift stats). That's a huge step forward in trying to determine who's "doping".

Who knows how their algorithms work? But with w/kg a larger rider may tend to produce a higher absolute wattage on a flat road, which makes the pace very hard to hold. I’ve noticed that as a lighter rider, I drop many that I struggle to a wheel when a long climb starts. I think some of this depends if your advantage lies in the numerator or the denominator of w/kg.

I know some race series to not classify Zpower riders. It’s controversial, personally I’m riding a Tacx Neo, I don’t think that after the price increase Zwift is looking to offend all the non smart trainer users. Maybe they should add an virtual racing license and a smart trainer requirement to ride races. This stuff is in its infancy. For all the flaws, it’s still great fun, and a good workout. I’ve done some races where I’ve stayed with the lead pack and forgot I was on a trainer by the end. I was just following wheels. No risk of crashes, no driving to the start. I’m sure in the future the system will be more refined, but till then, I’m good with it all, and will race when my legs are willing.

Do you have a smart trainer?

I have similar numbers and I'm a Cat 1, but I was getting dropped in C and B races last year on my rollers or dumb trainer averaging 315w+. This year on a Tacx Flux and I have a 5th and a 6th in two different A races without really contesting the end and only averaging around 290w.

The smart trainer makes an enormous difference for me.

I don't generally know anybody who is on when I Zwift. There are always people passing me but then again there are always people to catch. I just try to focus on somebody ahead who is coming back slowly and try to catch them. Whatever make me keep my power up into the range I want.

If I catch someone I keep working and look for the next one.

An hour or two later, I've had a hell of a workout. I don't know who is legit, who is faking and who is -- well just an electronically generated rider. Hasn't mattered so far.

While riding, if you click on a riders name, you'll see what they are seeing.

A lot of people wear HRM's while riding. If I see someone doing 5+W/Kg and their HR is 110 or something like that then I know they are cheating.

More often than not, when I see a high power with someone that has a HRM on, it's accompanied with a high HR as well. Those people are only riding that hard for 5 or 10 min at a time though. I don't do races so I cannot comment on how those people ride.

jaretj

I had a 4.3w/kg FTP, and a dumb trainer. I was dropped only the 1st time when I didn't know you had to nearly sprint at the beginning. Then, when you know that and keep the wheels correctly, you can do a decent race. I did 3 or 4 races at 4.1 to 4.4 w/kg (depending the races) and I was ok, the best place being 8th, the rest still in the first half if not tiers of A racers. I stopped since I wasn't satisfied (not my top condition, i'll start when 4.8+ w/kg) and I had a dumb trainer so wasn't taked into account in all rankings.

Now with the kickr snap, the powers are consistent with what I do with dumb trainer (elite novo force ; resistance 3). There can be a diference if you can't manage the fact dumb trainer doesn't take gradient into account, so you deliver a constant power up hill and down hill, so you can be dropped up and go faster down, which is not an advantage since you loose the draft. But when you know that, you just have to push more power up hill to anticipate.

Yeah it’s 100% down to the start and making the first group, my ftp is around 250w, 4/wk and i can easily race B grade and stay with the group. I sprint like my legs are wet noodles, so i never win, but I’m not really trying too, it’s just a threshold training ride for me.

To answer the OP question - probably both.

Zwift races are fun and well worth doing. I agree about the start being a full-on VO2 effort to get in the front group but even if you miss that you get to stay with the second or 3rd group or just keep in a group of 3 or 4 riders for the next hour or 2. A rider might fade and drop after 30 miles, you might pick up another rider on route who'd been killed by the pace at the front. I'm 330W @76kg and i regularly end up doing 2hours at 290W or so and end up in the top 10 for a B race. I am faster than some, but get killed by the A guys for sure. It makes me feel old.

They are a great workout, and a great mix of being an ego boost as you get to know what you can do when the pressure is on and you don't want to be the one to fade first or let the group down, but they are also humbling as you see that there are some riders out there who are way faster than you.

If you care enough about it you can check people out on Zwift Power, which links to their Strava profile. So you can see that the guy who beat you to death out there wasn't cheating - he rides 250 miles a week and can do this in real life as well.

I'm doing some real life mountain bike races and always struggle to get good results whereas in Zwift i'm racing with top guys most of the time with my 4.7w/kg ftp. Calibrated power meter and correct weight.
Seeing the gap with real life i know many of the irl racers that beat me are way above 5 and are not pros (well the best could become but i would tell they they're at least in the 6 range).
Remember world class is in the 7 range ! I'm not surprised many amateurs are in the 5 range.
I can't win most races because my sprint is bad but i'm a triathlete so...
I would not say there is that much cheating in zwift. Sure there is some cheating, some weird results here and there, some impossible zpower but on an event with 400 people i would say it's about 4 people 1%.

x2. I don't know exactly how are why since in theory it's just W/kg, but I do *much* better on a smart trainer. With pretty much the same power reported by the Power2Max I used previously.

My FTP is at 318w and I weigh 140lbs. So just at 5w/kg and I get passed all the time. Even if I ignore folks using estimated power, there are still a lot of riders who go around averaging 6w/kg like it's a breeze.

With that said, I don't really care. Actually, if there were zero riders on a course when I ride, I'd like that better :-)

I wonder if there is a way for the software to determine your race category instead of letting people simply choose. I guess it does some kind of maximal power curve profiling, since it offers me a new FTP every now and again. People will always be able to manually change their FTP for whatever reason, but Zwift could use the number based on your previous efforts to place you in the right category.

Ok, people could sandbag in Cat D for a little while and then go and whoop ass, but as soon as they did the algorithm would be suggesting a new race category so you couldn't do it more than a couple of times. I don't know what happens when you take time off and essentially de-train, haven't figured it all out yet :-).

And of course it wouldn't stop people pissing about with power meter calibration, using whacky zpower numbers, or lying about their weight... but it would stop you having to watch a guy you're racing in cat C disappear down the road at 5w/kg for 15 minutes.

not sure about him, but for me, I "sandbag" in order to get in a decent tempo group workout. Riding alone on zwift sucks, and the group dynamics makes it a bit more bearable. I'm currently recovering and barely hang on in B group races at FTP of ~270 at 70 kg; B group rides don't go nearly hard enough (and are far and few in between). C and D group races lets me average about 220-230W for a decent workout.

Also, what's with the zwift drafting system? I ended up doing 265W for 30 minutes and barely received any benefit of drafting...

I think the concern about "who's cheating on zwift?" is pointless. If real prize money events become 'a thing', there WILL be real dopers in the mix. So calibration-cheating or weight-cheating will become sort of secondary anyways.

That isn't especially problematic behavior, assuming that you don't decide at the end that you may as well compete a bit and try to win the B race. If you just use it as a workout and sit in the pack for some motivation and then don't mess with the race at the end I see no real issue.

I don't know what you mean about zwift drafting. The drafting is a bit different than IRL, but it definitely works. I've been pretty regularly doing the KISS AT Base workouts, which are designed as Z2 base training. The big front group will do 27 mph on a flat course and I can average around 210w in the draft. 210w solo on zwift is more like 21 mph on the flats (which is still pretty high!). If you are in a big group doing 27 mph and drop off the back, you will notice real fast that you were getting a benefit. I might have been sitting in at just over 3 w/kg, and will need to do 5 w/kg to make it back to the group if a gap forms.

Drafting is the big thing that disappointed me when I got the cycleops hammer and tried zwifting with it. I think there is a draft in that you can hang with a group, but I expected a big decrease in power needed. I've looked off and on to see if drafting is really supposed to feel like the real world and I read something about higher ping rates (? not sure if ping is really a rate, but I'm using it lol) result in not feeling the effect. I'm in the boston area and I think my ping to CA, where zwift servers are, is like 80ms and I think I saw the ping should be in the 50s to feel it? Not sure if I'm getting it right, just seems like that's what I saw in some zwift support board postings.

You can switch to a non-scheduled "world" you know.....damn shouldn't tell people, don't want it getting crowded!

I didn't know. But I did notice that you can start with WiFi to establish course etc. and then turn it off, and everyone is gone :-)

The drafting works fine for me.
You can certainly maintain pace at significantly lower power when you are close behind one or more others. I've seen a lot of criticisms of the drafting and keep wondering if it's because people on smart trainers are expecting to feel something more pronounced or if it's actually a connection speed issue, as you suggest, which causes difficulties with relative positions of riders as seen by you, other riders, and the drafting algorithm.

For most of the last year I've ridden in Watopia regardless of where was scheduled if I was doing any sort of structured training session. You just add a line near the end of the prefs file. I didn't like Richmond or London much. However, I tried the new hilly roads on the London world when they were introduced and I find it much better now so I do a bit of both. The city environments just don't do it for me when cycling, either in real life or on Zwift!
When I do Watopia on non-Watopia days, there's usually only a handful of other riders around. You might pass one other rider as you traverse the main start finish stretch.
When I'm doing a group ride or race, I obviously have to use the same world as everyone else.

That's a whole new level of asocial ;)

I think Richmond is pretty much dead, 2days/month?
The London hills are pretty nice. I did a Greater London route last night and the Box Hill climb was kicking my ass.
I think it's pretty well-established that the zwift draft is not as pronounced as many road cyclists would like. I have a Tacx Neo and can definitely see the watts drop a bit when sitting on someone, but draft in the bunch is much less than IRL. Realistic draft would make for much more interesting racing. I think Zwift has their hands full and they see racing as an organic thing but it's not their focus. They're trying to grow the user base and be as inclusive as possible. It would be interesting to see if some of the competitors (Virtugo, etc) go with a more realistic draft.

Ever notice the crowds in London murmur a lot about 'Ginny Moser'? Who the hell is Ginny Moser..

Nah, structured training is generally a solo pursuit anyway (except for the new group workouts).
This is just a way to avoid distractions and have the terrain you like!
I do enjoy riding with groups when I don't have a specific plan for the session. So I do group rides or races too.

Although I have to say, I HATE the guys who ride around spamming everyone with Ride-Ons. Zwift really should cap the use of the Ride-On. Surely I'm not the only one who finds that irritating? I'll use it during or after riding with someone in a breakaway or racing them up a climb or in a sprint. It's a nice acknowledgement and thank you for cooperation or competition. But overuse is childish, noisy and de-values it.

Totally agree.

I don't get all the Richmond hate. I mean, if pressed I'll admit I like Watopia better, but I don't see a whole lot of difference between London and Richmond.

On which circuit do you both ride? Mythomania?
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_Threshold_Power

when you do that, are you the only one on the course?

The ride-ons are annoying. I actually don't have much to say while riding on zwift. Others I guess it helps to pass the time. I've only started using zwift more recenlty. I tried years ago with the beta and it didn't take but now that they've added more events (group rides, group workouts, races) I'm starting to like it more.

I'm still torn on whether I will continue with zwift. I stilll have the $10/month until the end of the year. I already paid for the year of trainerroad. At the end of the year I may just end up with perfpro one time fee and get out of the subscription model

For the 2 guys who see "groups of 6+w/kg", here's a race with a guy at 5.0w/kg who can race in open elite races IRL (so most are pros in this kind of IRL races). Not guys who are dividing their training in 3 disciplines who pretend to be 5w/kg while doing triathlon and MTB at the same time, but pure cyclists.

And the "winner" is a cheater, no HR, a 16yo who can't simply push this power and beat elites. So the real winner, if he's leggit, made 4.4w/kg (and probably know how to draft).

For what it's worth, there are limits set to flag riders exceeding 5 w/kg for 20 minutes, and 6 w/kg for 5 minutes. It's a high limit, but if you're hitting those numbers you should be able to provide proof of that power with either race results or outdoor power files.

I actually hit that limit today to win a race on a solo breakaway. Managed 425W for 5 minutes at 70.8 w/kg, exceeding the 6 w/kg limit by a mere 0.0026 w/kg. My files from outdoor races and rides have been sent in to ZADA (Zwift anti-doping agency) and I should be verified shortly.

I'm good at riding bike for a triathlete for sure, many top3 bike split. but i'm a very average bike racer. It's true i'm not full on triathlon and more interested in bike but still i can enjoy running (3h01 marathon) and survive the swim.
I mean just look at the top tdf rider, they are above 400FTP, many are around 60kg (some above some below) that put a number of them in the 7 range. It's a fact. Competing at top amateur level in cycling is certainly more around 6 than 5. i'm around 4.7 and get thrashed (that's one of the reason i'm doing some triathlon and not cycling only btw). I met a semi pro (study but sponsored, many race wins at regional level, some national top10) the guy had a 353watt average on a 3h30 race (uci marathon mtb world) he is in the 70kg range. With all the power surge i let you evaluate his ftp but it bet it's in the 6 at least.
https://www.strava.com/activities/1053340201

What will it take to win the Zwift national championships? I'm thinking 12 W/kg for the entire race...

I think what's being overlooked here is that Zwift is a game, with a very tangible training and fitness benefit. It could be that many of us bemoan cheating in the 'game', but then go out during the season and post PBs bc of the time spent Zwifting.

I do the same thing all the time! If I need to get some endurance hours in I'll just jump in whatever race is coming up next, and jump in the B event. I'll try not to interfere with racing dynamics, e.g. I won't shut down attacks (unless I feel someone's being a jackwagon and needs to have their shit shut down), and I always "sit up" for sprints.

This is one thing I complained about to Rapp in the other thread (but got no response). Currently with Zwift it takes a little work to sandbag the group workouts in the same way without going in and manually changing your FTP to dial down the intensity. The little FTP scaling tool only varies between 90-110%. One thing I like about trainerroad is you can dial your workout intensity on the fly to whatever you want. Since the groups are all kept together anyway I don't see any reason to *not* let me just dial my particular FTP scale factor down to 50% or something.

He had a 353W normalized (Coggan) power. Average power was 302W.

I'd guess he's somewhere between 5-5.5 W/kg for an hour. Not nearly 6. Definitely pro caliber, but not Salbutafroome level.

That's not a fact. Your numbers are a pretty long ways off.

Ajaj191 wrote:

I mean just look at the top tdf rider, they are above 400FTP, many are around 60kg (some above some below) that put a number of them in the 7 range. It's a fact. Competing at top amateur level in cycling is certainly more around 6 than 5.

I think 6.2 is a more reasonable limit for relatively clean tour riders.
From Sports Scientists (http://sportsscientists.com/2013/07/the-power-of-the-tour-de-france-performance-analysis-groundwork/):

Quote:

So, the method predicts a time of 24:17 for the 8.9km climb, based on a pVAM of 1640 m/hour. That corresponds, per Ferrari’s equation, to a relative power output of 5.98 W/kg, which is near enough that 6 to 6.2 W/kg limit you may have heard of so often.

That limit, incidentally, is something I’ve written on a great deal in the past, but will refer you to this post and the links it contains for more detail on this subject.

Briefly, however, the premise here is that in order to produce 6.2 W/kg or higher for longer than about 30 minutes requires physiology that is, frankly, not seen in normal situations. That doesn’t mean it’s not possible, but to illustrate, in order to ride at this kind of power output, a cyclist must have a VO2max that is tremendously high, in combination with an exceptional efficiency, and the ability to sustain upward of 85% of VO2max for those 30 minutes or more, at the end of a 5 hour stage. The combination of physiological factors does not, in my opinion, exist in order to validate power outputs above 6.2 W/kg for those durations.

I'm a bit confused by folks with 3.6-4.0 w/kg getting dropped in the 'B' group. Sometimes they go out with the 'A' group and you have to keep an eye out for who is who. . .but I find myself holding on and I'm a meager 3.6 FTP. I think the issue may partly be about how triathletes train and then trying to compete with roadies. You have to be able to dig pretty deep during the first 15 minutes or so.

I don't believe strava numbers if they're not realistic, mainly with guys who are fast to speak about their numbers. With 4.8w/kg I can ride in elite level in Belgium without problem, disputing for 20th places and above vs many dopers. 4.7w/kg and "trashed"? Or you have no idea how to draft, or your numbers are utterly overevalued (or you have big weaknesses in some domains, like accelerations, or perhaps endurance). You're supposed to ride 44km/h (without wind) for 1 hour if you weight 70kg
http://sportech.online.fr/sptc_idx.php?pge=spfr_esy.html
and you can't hold wheels during non-pro races?


The numbers of FTP provided on wikipedia are taken according races performances, so can be considered with doping with nearly certitude. Chris Froome = 6.1 to 6.5w/kg. Tony Martin 6 to 6.6. And they're world very bests, all other top world are below these numbers.
https://cyclingtips.com/2016/08/chris-froomes-lab-results-analysed-just-how-good-is-the-three-time-tour-de-france-champion/
Your numbers are "correct" only in the dreaming world you live in.

With the races I have done, I usually get dropped from B after 30 minutes or so. I'm still yet to master the draft effect in Zwift as it doesn't seem to benefit you that much when you're in it, but when you're trying to get back on from a distance back it is really quite hard. Maybe it's just that I'm usually always pretty fried going into the races anyway?

I'm about 3.6 w/kg although haven't done an ftp test in over a year and I usually just tempo it in once I'm dropped. Although I am much fitter than I was when I last did the test. I did the Greg Henderson vo2 workout and found that pretty easy so maybe I've improved on the surgey bits? Who knows, maybe my ftp setting is just completely inaccurate.

Although I did do the sst(long) workout recently and was pretty spent after that.

fulla wrote:

the draft effect in Zwift as it doesn't seem to benefit you that much when you're in it, but when you're trying to get back on from a distance back it is really quite hard.

It's contradictory. If the draft had no effect going 0.1w/kg harder than when in the pack would be enough to go back. However, compared to a large group, going 1w/kg harder (on the flat) is often not even enough.

If you ride with a HRM and a power meter (or power tracking trainer) then Zwift will raise your FTP when you do a ride where you exceed the value you've previously tested at. This may require you to do one of the Zwift FTP tests in the first place... but it's raised my FTP twice in the last couple of months, both times after I basically completely wrecked myself in a 40 km race.

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Less is more.

The cash/prizes will go to the best hacker, not the best rider.

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While one might get lucky in particular circumstances, in general realistic draft would not be possible to implement due to unpredictable delays/signal drops on Internet and also bluetooth/ANT+ to trainer interface.

There's typically a handful of others who do the same thing. I'm going to guess I generally see perhaps 10 other riders in the course of a one hour session in Watopia. So, essentially you have the road to yourself. Just don't all start doing it or my peace will be ruined!

I've never tried audio communication on Zwift. I do use the in-game messaging from time to time, but only occasionally when there's a reason. For example, I did a group workout last week and started a bit late so hadn't warmed up. So, I got dropped at the very start. After a few minutes I was warmed up and was matching W/kg with the big group ahead. There were a few others off the back of the group who had formed up on my wheel. So I messaged them to ask if they wanted to work together to catch up as it was unlikely I could manage a solo chase when the big group had a big drafting advantage. No luck, they weren't able for an increase in power so we formed our own group and rode together for a long while. That sort of thing works fine, but I'm not about to get into small talk by text with strangers while training!

Exactly. You can't credibly claim draft has no effect when you also feel you have to work harder without it. How does that make sense?

I mainly race mtb and i definitely struggle in the climb with 4.6-7 in the senior race. i am missing around 10% climbing speed. And the top guy i race with still lack about 5% climbing speed to be top national rider. Regarding my number i own a power2max, a vector 2 the vector are torqued to spec and calibrated frequently. My sprint and my 2 min power are not that good. My endurance is i think with a 5h13min at IM nice which is good without being exceptional.

I agree with this. What I don't get is what ZADA is really doing. I had to provide power files and race results about four months ago. Everything went through fine, but I am still in A races and see people routinely show up with suspicious performances and I have a hard time believing someone on a dumb trainer, with estimated power, weighing 125 lbs is able to pass me and keep me away as they do 5.8 w/kg for an hour+...Why are these people not having to provide power files and race results? There are plenty of stronger riders out there who can ride my ass in to the ground, but there are also a lot of suspicious riders as well who remain.

Off topic, but I was riding a month ago and Wout Poels came up on me. Once I realized it was him, I hung on for dear life and rode with him for a bit. He must have been doing intervals because he would push 6 - 6.3 w/kg for 20 minutes then drop it to 4 w/kg or so; rinse and repeat. I hung with him for a bit and when I blew up I followed him for a while to watch. So there are some legit powerhouses cruising around and racing too.

This just isn't true. The top riders are often ZADA approved and transparent about their numbers. There are a few questionable riders, but they have mostly been ferreted out with ZADA and the quality of riders they have to beat (and subsequently hit ZADA limits to do so).

In video game tournaments where there can actually be fairly large cash prizes, all players are physically present. That's probably the only way to really control cheating. It seems impossible to keep people from cheating using Aimbots and other client side hacks if they play remotely.

I sent them my info a month ago and haven't heard back yet. I have many a Strava segment at 6 w/kg for 5 minutes, and one at almost 5.9 for 7.5 minutes. All using power tap hubs.

From what I understand there is quite a backlog.

I was moved to the front of the line because I hit the 6 w/kg limit in a CVR World Cup race to win my Zone (B) for Bracket A. Once verified I will qualify for the live event in Los Angeles on March 24-25. Stoked!!

Hope they get to your verification soon!! Sorry I had to cut the line due to time constraints!

You probably haven't heard back because they're just sitting around a table ogling your numbers. "Look, ridenfish, so many 5-minute segments at 6!!!"

lol. Sorry to bother you.

Right -- Zwifft does have live events, and I think those will become a bigger deal going fwd. ("e-sports").
But unless Zwift is also going to perform drug testing, it is still fantasy racing. And I can't imagine a video game company carrying out pee testing.

I can't wait for when Zwift adds in the railgun upgrade.

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Less is more.

Sometimes I think people just race tactically poor in Zwift races. I usually average 4.2 w/kg in most races and am usually in the top 10. I don't win a lot of races, but I also rarely feel like I'm completely out of it either. Also, for most races, the winning averages are in the 4.5 to 4.6 range even in big races. For the Championship I'm sure there will be some higher average watts, but any good cat.2 in real life should do fine in Zwift A races. You don't need to be a pro.

dude, your quoting game needs work. for the record, i didn't say i jump into the B events for training miles

as for backdoor brag, i'm the first to admit i'm eating loads of humble pie right now. While I was dictating cat-3 races and breaking away at will when I was on form, that doesn't get me far in cat-2 land though. Throw in some life circumstances and an injury, and I was down to 250 W FTP (from 315-320 W). I know for a fact that @ridenfish will run circles around me; that dude is a monster on the bike. Pretty sure that @trail is a cat-1 as well.

also, all the ribbing is taken in good humor. Though if @trail starts telling me what's a proper wildcard pick, I may have an issue :p

Personally, I think it'd cool if there was a 'campaign mode'. Race against a pack of bots. Give them AI, so it's not just a TT effort.
Let the user choose from espoirs, elites, or pro level of difficulty.
Racing adapts to your ability. Sometimes you'd win, sometimes you'd get shelled.
Go full EA Madden or FIFA, and add in-game commentary. Would be fun and no worries about cheating.

ZADA? Really? FFS it's trainertainment.

How do you know the person isn't doping, old-skool style?
Indeed there would be some newer old-skool methods people can try, e.g. use of supplemental O2, which you could not practically do on a real ride but inside on a static trainer it'd be much more easily managed.

How do you know the person on the bike during a race is actually that person?
Real events with real people have simple but very effective processes that eliminate this problem. Why? Because before they did, it used to happen. It'll happen anywhere there are not effective systems in place to prevent it.

How do you know the trainer is even being driven by a bike rider, or rider's effort isn't being supplemented by "artificial" aid?
Motorised assistance is here and is trivial to set up/use.

How do you know the data stream going into the Zwift app is from a trainer at all?
Simulated data is already a thing with tools available now to generate ANT+ data streams.

How do you know the supplied files are actually from the person they claim to be or if the files are genuine or synthetically created?

How secure are Zwift's systems and are competitors' data and data streams from manipulation?


Look, I've no issue with "trainertainment", I think it's cool and if I ever get to ride again I may well join in the fun. But bike racing this is not and pretending it is just means it will attract all the same set of sad narcissistic wannabe champions you get in all walks of like. And they will cheat. They do now. They will get more creative over time as they find ways to do so and cheating in a way that will make a mockery of the concept.


Nearly 10 years ago I used to run indoor trainer races in a mutirider studio with Computrainers. We had actual people present and controlled all facets of the race (bar old-skool doping). We had prizes (~$5k worth). It was run as a handicap, IOW each rider was given a start time delay before they were permitted to commence pedalling. Slower riders started first and the progressively fitter/more powerful started later. Quickest total time (ride + handicap) wins, plus a bonus for fastest rider (ride time only). It was fabulous fun and people really gave it their all, with a crowd to watch. We had very close finishes and several dead heats. Beers afterwards. A series of races with different courses that suited different riders.

OK, grumpy old man mode off.

Get on it and have fun. Once it's no longer fun move along to something else that is.

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http://www.aerocoach.com.au

Oh, I wasn't talking about you, but the guy who said he had tons of 6 W/kg Strava segments.

Oof man, you had a lot to say. I agree with most of your points, you’re totally right there are probably people who set up a computer to “play the game”.

And users could submit someone else’s fit files for inspection. That’s fair.

I would like to protest that at the pointy end of Zwift racing, the community is very vocal and visible, with both frequent outdoor riding, race results, willingness to provide data, policing races, and promoting the game and racing community.

For instance, I crossed a threshold which flagged my race and gave me an Auto-DQ for averaging 6 w/kg in 5 minutes (425W at 70.8 kg in my race). I immediately weighed myself, and today (a day later) I went outside and did a maximum 5 minute effort at 443W or 6.24 w/kg) (effort: https://www.strava.com/activities/1407911358).

They can analyze my outdoor power, HR, cadence, outdoor speed, other Strava users on the same segment, etc. Many other riders have had to do this or at least provide race results if no outdoor power meter outside (fewer and fewer of those people nowadays).

This effort secured my position in a live event where I will go ride a calibrated trainer, weigh in in person, and race shoulder to shoulder in person but on Zwift. Prize purse is $106,000 for 16 racers (8 men, 8 women — equality in payouts between genders, so $53,000 for 8 men). I’d call that “racing” and less than “trainertainment”.

Cheers.

Right. Will you dope to the gills, prior to the event?

I won’t, but I guess you’re right that I can’t expect the same from my peers. Nothing I can do but be transparent with my own numbers and training. Would really be awful to lose to someone who’s not clean.

I also race 70.3 events, so I will be subject to random screenings at St. George this year. If i gets selected, I’d be happy to piss in a cup and prove I’m clean.

I got called out for sandbagging in one of the 10mi tt's yesterday.

*proud moment*

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

That's super impressive. After checking out your race results, I'd say you should consider working to translate that power into (real world as well as Zwift) results. That's not a back-handed insult. I sincerely think you should get a coach or something and consider being a real life bike racer.

I've just subscribed for the next national championship.
The first guy I've checked the profile : 1m76, 60kg, and absolutly not skinny (sprinter legs, because he's a sprinter, muscular arms). I've stopped to check here, and will focus on my preparation (his face before/during races look like a doped : red face).

Red faces equate to doped faces? That is interesting.

I agree...I do my winter training on Zwift with the power meter on my bike. There are no surprises when I get outside.

I’ve seen ZADA actually stem out some cheaters,., they don’t get excluded from races (we can do that as fellow riders mid race) but their results are excluded from leaderboard after the race

I think ZADA actually helps

Not perfect, but I’m happy they are there and doing what they do

Now I need to figure out how I can be strong enough to get ZADA certified

Why didn't WADA think of that? All these years and we could've had clean racing...

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I haven't done races in awhile, as I'm more invested in doing structured plans with trainerroad at the moment, but I wish zwift would allow for password protected events where organizers could verify stuff before hand and then allow users to join specific events/levels. While after the fact stuff is all well and good, it doesn't help when the dynamics of an event are affected by users who shouldn't be in lower categories, for example.

I had a pretty red face after one of my IMs in the bright sun and summer heat last year. I can't believe I passed my drug test! Surely it meant I was on something. ;)

A few weeks ago I was doing Watopia right at the bottom of "Epic KOM" about to climb when someone passed me doing 15+ w/kg. There weren't many people immediately ahead of me for me to catch, so I was able to watch him move up the standings ahead of me for over minute afterwards. For all that time, his w/kg never fell below that number. Finally he went off my screen.

Yeah.

It happens, can’t do anything about it

It’s a video game that makes training more fun .. at least for me. I compare myself to previous efforts not what others do

Once I stopped getting annoyed with cheaters and people better than me (real, pereceived, cheating, etc) it got a lot more fun

+1


My thoughts and prayers go out to all those beaten by a hacker. But now is not the time to be discussing Zwift anti hacking policy.

BTW, why is it ZADA? Shouldn't it be ZAHA?

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http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au

As the thread's devoted to that topic, I'm thinking it kinda is.

I'm not on Zwift, but a female friend is. She's been riding a mountain bike for a few years, but recently got a pretty sweet Cervelo which she keeps on a dumb trainer. She puts up both real and Zwift rides on Strava...

Typical real ride on mountain bike, on streets - 11.59 miles in 1:18:56; 1361 feet climbing; 8.8mph average, 27.3 max

Recent Zwift ride - Giro di Castelli Stage 4 - B Group: 16.68 miles in 44:25; 1099 feet climbing; 22.5mph, 53 max.

mmhmm... right!

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

My apologies for not using a pink font.

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http://www.cyclecoach.com
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Stop trolling when you've no clue of what you're talking about. A noob who thinks all organizators are fully ethic concerning doping, making unfinishing comments without any sense. There're signs to detect a doper, even if it obviously can't be taken into account as a legal proof in front of the law. When a guy has some kind of grey eyes, a strange red face (not all red faces look the same, this is typical), with a haggard look, sweat profusely and strangely (moist and homogeneous, whereas it is normally more focused on the forehead and has a greater tendency to drip), being inexplicably aggressive with mood swings, or being able to restart full gaz instantaneously without pain in the legs after several minutes of stopping (style puncture) are all signs of different kinds of doping. Not detectable if you don't have any subtlety or any experience of observing phenomena, which you can't have by making the clever one to spout nonsense on a forum.

Same remark for the other phenomenon which has no clue of what he's speaking about.

Since you have profound insight into ways to detect doping, perhaps you can work with WADA on the new facial recognition of doping.

And if you are so convinced about your observations, I'd be interested to learn about how many such people you have advised the anti-doping authority about your suspicions (they have a hotline), and as a result how many of them have subsequently received an ADRV?

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http://www.cyclecoach.com
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With some work on your delivery, you won't need it.

(On the other hand, I am no great shakes on that score. And compared to the "red-faced", "organizator" guy, you are Shakespeare )

This is a pretty ridiculous and pointless comparison.
You're comparing speeds from 2 potentially utterly different real and simulated rides and apparently trying to use that as a basis for questioning the credibility of the simulation.
Why do I think this is ridiculous?
Let me give you a few obvious reasons.

1. Well for starters, you don't tell us if she was putting in a similar effort. There's a limit to how fast I can go, but I can go as slow as I like! Was she wearing a HR strap or using a power meter to quantify the effort for each?
2. Were these routes both closed loops? It makes quite the difference if they started and finished at different altitudes or if the outdoor ride was predominantly into the wind.
3. What dumb trainer was she using and is it set up correctly. Does she have a power meter or is she using power curves for "virtual power"? If you select the wrong power curves for your trainer on Zwift, you can get VERY inaccurate data. That's not Zwift's fault. If it's a magnetic type trainer, did she use the correct resistance setting?
4. Did she ride continuously outdoors or were there junctions and delays included in the time and average speed given?
5. She was on a mountain bike for the road ride and a road bike on the trainer and in the sim. You don't think there might be differences here? What sort tyres on the MTN bike? Smooth or knobbly, and race or durable types? Position can make a very significant difference to speed. Zwift assumes a good road or tri bike position. How's her mountain bike position?
6. Her max speed outdoors was only 27.3mph. With the figures you gave she must at some point have been descending decent gradients unless it wasn't a closed loop route. Is she a very nervous descender? That's a very low speed. I doubt she was pedaling and she was probably braking during some or all descents. You can't brake in Zwift.
7. Was it windy out?
8. The outdoor ride has a very significant amount of extra climbing. 1361ft climbing in 11.59miles is very different to 1099ft in 16.68 miles. Average gradient is about 80% greater.
9. Did she enter accurate weight data in Zwift?

Seriously, the number of obvious flaws in drawing the parallel you did is stunning! Perhaps you have more information you didn't share, but as you posted it, the anecdote was worthless.


For me, Zwift may be slightly optimistic on speed but not dramatically so, and it doesn't matter anyway, so long as it's the same for everyone. My Zwift rides approximate pretty well with outdoor rides on the tri bike, but I'm slower in reality on the road bike. If I held the position the avatar does for the full ride, that would probably be close too but I rarely stay low on the road bike.

There's nothing unusual about my "sight". Many racers remarked to me, distinguishing various signs that they also noticed the obvious signs of doping. Aggressivity is well known concerning those taking testosterone for example. When you don't have any baggage, you avoid being ironic. Where is the ignore function on this forum?





I'm not native. I hope for you you're not neither.
http://dictionnaire.reverso.net/anglais-francais/red-faced
http://ccm.net/faq/4413-some-typographical-rules#brackets
Given your poor expertise of English, I won't ask you to compare the length of our dicks regarding the mastery of our respective primary language, "Shakespeare".





Nice effort, but for me point 5 was already more than enough to show the ridiculousness of Halfspeed's remark.




Otherwise the Zada still does a good job and eradicates hand over fist (if that's the correct expression). I have just done two races, and less than a third of the starters are in the final results... I didn't notice the dropouts along the way, but it's still impressive. But one thing they obviously don't do is notice that guys with a strong build, measuring 1m86, can't weigh 67kg.Even if there are still a few of them in the top places whose credibility we can doubt, it is difficult to be categorical, especially on their part because they have the responsibility not to exclude innocent people.

So...it wasn't in a race? You were just riding around? Who cares?

Zwift has become reality..
Kinda fascinating really.

Not pointless at all. I said typical.. day in, day out, nearly everyday, a discrepancy like that. I've ridden with her and she's slow AF. If I were to Zwift, and her Zwift setup is legit, I'd be fast AF in there.
I'm not discounting Zwift. I see its use and I would love to be able to afford a smart trainer and get on it. But the races? A good workout, but gotta laugh at the speed, and therefore the rankings of some zwifters. I'd only race myself in there.

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

You have to consider several things :
- In zwift, the roads are considered ideal (very soft), as new. Very rare in reality, but it exists.
- The wind's null. So to compare, you have to take the average speed of an IRL ride, and add a few km/h (headwind + backwind makes a slower speed to zero wind all the time).
- Relays are ideal in zwift (you don't need to step aside and take the wind to take your relay. You are considered to be taking the wind only once you have passed the rider in front of you, often crossing his body (time during which you are still protected).
- The equipment in zwift (bike + outfit) are considered excellent, especially when you win better bikes.
- There is a huge amount of drafting, even when you ride alone (by catching up or by getting caught up), which does not exist IRL (except when drafting behind cars/scooters/trucks/tractors).
- You should especially see the quality of your friend's setup, the problem is often there.
- 45km/h on a race, it's nothing exceptional IRL, and we don't go much faster on zwift, whereas the races are much shorter.
- You never slow down in zwift (turns, traffic lights, traffic do not exist). Even other cyclists don't slow you down. Think that you never brake.
- Last but not least, it doesn't matter if everyone is housed in the same building (already said previously).


P.S. : Concerning the races, don't worry too much about what happens during them. Clearly there are still some cheaters left, but frankly, if all of them were eliminated, it would be too easy, with the number of races, to finish 1st in many of them. Let's say they are there to balance the dispersion of riders on all races, in order to give you a more realistic ranking if you had to face all the regular riders on the same race.
And the job is well done, as I said, after an hour, the rankings are often drastically cleaned up.

I think you're entirely missing my point. There were many possible reasons for a discrepancy other than a dramatic failure of realism by Zwift. Given you say she is really very slow. It narrows things down and seems her Zwift setup is almost certainly NOT legit. Most likely a wrong resistance curve match or wrong resistance setting on a mag trainer. In which case your entire point.....is not a point.

I never said there was anything wrong with your sight.

I asked you to outline how many dopers have been caught as a result of your ability to pick them just by looking at them.

And what's your false positive rate?

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http://www.cyclecoach.com
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Stop the fallacies. Probability cannot be said to exist when there is no event. In this case, the "denunciation" event is void in my case.


And if you want to ask precisely why I don't denounce it, it's because I don't care anymore, knowing that it's a mafia-like environment (not just concerning athletes). Athletes having a reputation superior to the event's one, have a right of way. The practice is generalized at mid-high level, so I don't care to denounce individuals.



And if you want to know how many have been proven doped among those detected, the answer is 100%. On the other hand, I was not able to detect directly all those who were doped, having subsequently learned it by word of mouth, so not all doping is necessarily visually detectable, or we have to spend more time with individuals. As in the case of an athlete who may have had seizures before the effort, or who is required to do push-ups at night to circulate blood (and so prevent heart attack). This is observable, I was told, but I wasn't there to see any of these events. Some signs are more permanent, others much more ephemeral.

I haven't read much of this thread at all but, real question, why does anyone care if people manipulate their wkg? Does it have to do with these people cheating to win the virtual races and steal KOMs?

You're the who that claimed they could tell a doper by looking at them. I wanted to know more because if it's valid/reliable then it could be a useful means to better target testing resources but you are unable or unwilling to demonstrate this ability with any evidence. I don't see that as a fallacy.

Even so, if we take pro riders who've been on the podium of a major European race or GT stage over the past 30 years, a monkey throwing darts at a board full of rider's names has a better than even chance of hitting a doper, so claiming some sort of ability when the random odds of being right is already better than 50% isn't really saying much. You'd need to be able to do much better than the monkey.

In any case as a means of detecting doping for people riding an indoor trainertainment system where no one can actually see you, it's kind of moot.

No offence intended, I just like to question claims which sound extraordinary.
Ride well and tailwinds.

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http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au

AlexS wrote:

blablabla

So you really spend your time arguing, playing smart. You have proven several times to be unable to read a text, I will not quoter ad vitam eternam the same things. I leave you to your trolling, since you don't have the rhetorical arguments to discuss supposedly, or even the will, for that matter.

You made an extraordinary claim. I asked for the extraordinary evidence to support your claim. My question was not rhetorical, rather it is entirely straightforward and reasonable.

You can quote that for all time.

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http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au

This is the core question. The key to enjoying both Strava and Swift competition is the ability to compartmentalize butthurt and savage type-A competitive instinct to only real-life racing. If you're prone to butthurt, virtual competition may not be for you. Have fun with Strava and Zwift.

I’d love to see some of these “weight fudgers” or fishy power reading folks try out a real life A+ group hammer ride.

The more I ride the more I realize two things that are both true but seemingly at odds with each other:

-always someone faster than you, and sometimes vastly faster
-nowhere near as many roadies as think they can hang in a real life A or A+ ride can actually do so

Yep.

I could care less if some electronic image rolls away from me as long as I’m getting my work in. Zwift is a fun way to distract and one can generally tell if the image next to you is connected to a person of comparable ability to you or not. Or, alternatively, has adjusted their virtual wkg the way you have. In any case, it’s virtual. Pin on a number in the heat, wet, or cold, draft, pull, and risk crashing out, flatting and or being dropped while your gf stands roadside, bored stiff, texting her other bf if you want to race bikes, versus game. Then, you can give a shit, be humbled, humiliated, etc.

I'm not her other bf. We just f*ck a lot.

This I agree with. Now, a qualifier to my comment: I can handle getting dropped in real life but not virtual so won’t be signing up for Zwift.

But, lots of people pay good money for their fun there. The business model isn’t sustainable if customers get pissed that the competition is fake?

Why did so much big sponsor money leave real world cycling? Cheating.

Sure, it’s a video game. Sure, it’s not a blood bag cheater in the world tour. But it involves people’s money, so there has to be some assurance otherwise that money won’t stay. In this case customer money.

Well, after a good series of races, the situation is clear.
90% of A's are mythic addicts, just look at their profiles to see that they have little chance of pushing 300w+. We even see some of them daring the 340 while they must struggle to reach the 200...
For profiles without a photo, it is disqualificatory: for me it would be worth staying in D, or perhaps C if a certain number of proven km (constancy in training).
The worst is the ZADA approval of pure touring cyclists, pretending to be pro level. The worst ones (guignols that we find at the top of the rankings):
- Chinese (team +1S full troll, and they openly assume it...)
- The Danish
- Anonymous people (without photo).


There's an interesting thing behind all this, but I'll keep my mouth shut. That these weak and stupid ones stay as they are, believe it, you should do the races and not worry about them, focusing on your own thing. Even idiots at 12w/kg when they look like nothing apart from a troll are useful.

Yes, Danish bloke has a FTP 2400 W. Behind him is an english chap with FTP 2080 W. Not bad. I wonder what their sprint power can be.

But in C and B groups the overall situation is not so bad actually.

Yep, I've much more respect for the B and C riders, who have much more chance to be honest. You know what they worth, but as for all those 340w+ charlots that look like beginners/sick...

It is possible to hold to opposing thoughts: (1) Zwift "racing" is mostly a joke, with too many of the "A" and "B" riders riding with fake weight and intentionally overestimating power set-ups. (2) Zwift is a great off-season training tool that has really got people on the trainer consistently like little else I have seen.

- the rise of the group events and group rides is my favorite Zwift thing- love seeing 300 riders in the same jersey stream by the other way when doing my thing.
- also love to see the rarer country flags, fun to think you are riding with someone on the other side of the world.

For the few B I've checked, they look much more legit. It's not very very hard to reach a B level, if you train "just correctly" (not too bad). Then getting A is from my point of view a bit harder (excepted if very light), but the 300w+ generally (whatever the weight), you really don't see this every day, even when you live in Belgium a cycling country. So from countries that are lost, without any bike culture, seeing people as old / sick / ill / notorious beginners / overweight, overtake them happily...

Yes, racing is mostly a joke, but because of troll/mythomans, not because that's what it's essentially. Like IRL cycling races, which are the same kind of circus.

There’s also a lot of rubbish riders on zwift.
Like the guys above have noted, B grade is a good place to be.

See my thread about my first 4/5 race in real life.....

I'll politely disagree with the 300w thing. Especially when I spent that many minutes of a race at or above 300w.

I'm of the idea now that bike racing period is an anomaly versus "finishing a 1/2 marathon" or "finishing a 1/2 IM". Sure, to compete and win at those, you're really special. And for many, just finishing is special. But the basic ability level just to not get last and a DNF is beyond hanging on for the local quick group ride. It's like saying "oh, sorry, no 1/2 marathon finisher medal for you....you only ran an 8min/mi pace....you needed a 7min/mi to get a medal".

Sure, there's Zwift cheats. But Zwift gets an interesting subset of cycling culture. You're paying to play a racing video game. Not even half of real world bike racers necessarily do that. So you're already getting a pretty solid bunch of people together.

The most absurd are the flat out impossible rides

The following is the top 18 riders for the easy approach to the big climb in Watopia. It's 4 miles at 5%.


The fastest by a lady doing 1.1 kW for 10 minutes. None of places 2-10 are anywhere near believable either.

To find an actual believable result, we have to go all the way to 46th place. It's one of slowtwitch's own; dude is a legit climber and rides on Jelly Belly. As i've never heard of the guys faster than he, i'd assume there's a lot of garbage

What do you mean ? I speak about an FTP (1 hour) above 300w, not pushing it for some minutes. That means someone able to ride at 43km/h for one hour, with a TT bike. You don't meet that everyday, excepted among elites. And I don't see many "solid" riders there. My problem is not to be beaten (I always do good places just pushing like a retard : i don't care it's a workout), but to be "beaten" by noobs, who push 12w/kg for more than 1 minute until they come back, when they just train randomly, and come from countries where the few Caucasians athletes, who live there, make the law against hundreds of natives. As soon there's a video game, we see these trolls. But IRL...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MtfinntuCo

Follow Scottie Weiss if you want to know what a legit top cyclist can do.

But yeah I've given up looking through the leaderboards because of exactly what your picture shows, you have 50kg females at the top of leaderboards doing 500-600w for an hour.

Don't you know? Here on Slowtwitch everybody has an FTP >300w.

I kind of don't care about the virtual dopers. The thing that bothers me most is the weird group drafting dynamics, something not right there. I was trying to catch back up to my group after a lapse in concentration meant I got spit out the back on a short climb, and even though I could see I was producing 1w/kg more than the guy at the front, I still wasn't gaining. Understand if it was the guys in the pack, but this was the guy with his nose in the wind. Seems almost preposterously hard to gain on a group sometimes.

They don't attack on flat races, and just wait for the sprint...
I raced vs a pro (Jon Mould), and attacked 5-6 times, and nobody never followed, they just waited for the sprint too.

You have to go extremly fast if you're dropped alone, like 6-8w/kg as long as you can. Adam Weeb lost the contact (6-7") yesterday on our big group ride (3-3.5w/kg), and he never came back, even after pushing 6-7w/kg. Sometimes you really have to push 8w/kg to catch, or if you blow up before, rest some seconds and boost again as fast as you can until you came back. You must not lose your time pushing only 2w/kg more than them, you'll chase for ages.

Not to mention that the 3-3.5 w/kg group rides are harder than zwift races. Further exacerbated by people blasting off at 4.5-5w/kg. It’s like dude, just go race if you are that strong; the rest of us just want a tranquillo tempo ride...

I've gotten away a few times on flat(ish) races. Definitely harder (like in real life), but it is possible.

I like the group rides where it's "open" but you're encouraged to stay at, say 3.0-3.5 (or whatever). Or I like them when the bulk of people respect the ride and ride leader.

I've had a harder time enjoying the group workouts where Zwift packs everyone together regardless of what you do. It decouples enough from simulated group riding that something is lost, at least for me.

I guess this is a Zwift thing? Even in a race, there's no need to blast off at 150% of your FTP for the first 4-5 minutes. I'm not a "racer" but I've been told it's not like that in real life for a typical road race.

X2! I tried a couple group workouts and it's the only Zwift format I don't like, and for the same reason you stated. Mentally it just wrecks it when you know you are pushing x watts but virtual reality is greatly altered by the group "melding" (and imo, it's always negatively altered).

I think I'd get more satisfaction from a group workout if the individual effort was accurately reflected and then (just like in real life), if you end up near other similar strength riders, so be it. If not, then u just suffer knowing others are doing the same thing. (maybe this isn't easy to achieve, but that's what I'd prefer).

It can be like that in some road races, particularly criteriums. But the reason it typically happens is in situations where it's difficult to move up because maybe the road is narrow. That's why in, say, a cyclocross race the start is batshit crazy - because passing can take great effort.

But in Zwift there is no such situation. You can always move up just by pedalling harder. I think in Zwift it's purely a group psychology. There's some strong guys who started going apeshit at the start just to avoid dragging a field of wheelsuckers along for the entire race. So then other guys started going apeshit to try to neutralize those guys. Then pretty soon going apeshit just being a requirement for just saying in the main field.

It's weird. I wouldn't mind it in races - it's hard to bitch about there because the attack at the start - even if rare in real life - is a legitimate racing tactic. But I agree it's annoying in regular group rides. It'd be cool if Zwift maybe tried to neutralize the starts on group rides a bit to make them more sane. Maybe increase the aerodynamic drag or something for the first 5 minutes so there's a heavy cost for going off the front.

Took me a couple races to understand this, but I've learned just make sure you are really warmed up and ready drop the hammer for the first 90"...

I've accepted it's just the way racing on zwift works, so I know that no matter what, I need to cover the early break. It almost always comes back down to earth within 3-5 min, but it is a good way to create early separation and it usually succeeds in splintering the group.

Yeah, I didn't realise this was what was happening at first. I thought there were just loads of guys who routinely put themselves in the wrong category, and they were much, much stronger than me despite having seeded myself correctly versus my estimated FTP. I got dropped at the start of every race. Then I realised that most of them weren't so much stronger than me, they were just going all out at the start, while I was at or a bit below threshold.

Indeed very frustrating when you first start off, gradually you get used to the fast starts but it did take me some time
If there was a fixed threshold for the first 1-3 min i believe there would be less dropouts and better action during the whole race
Going all out for 1min and then steady for 100min is not for everyone, especially us tri ppl

As much as I'm not a fan of the sprint starts, I'm not sure adding artificial and rather arbitrary limitations is a good idea either. Zwift could end up chasing every "undesirable" trend in user behaviour so that races end up the way they think they should go. The sprint start is a legitimate race tactic, albeit one that doesn't suit everyone.

I agree it is a legitimate race tactic, but only because of the exaggerated draft benefit for group riding in Zwift... you shouldn't have to ride >1w/kg more than the rider at the front to gain on the group.

Helpful hint for the start... when you go on Zwift for an event, ride a bit of the course first before joining. You'll keep any power ups you pick up just for riding over the start line, and take them to the start of the race with you. Nice to have a draft or aero boost for that first sprint. Total cheat though ;-).

Good thinking.....but shame on you ;)

I know! :-)

Thing is, I'd seen other riders flying off the start line with aero boost powered up and wondered how they did it, until it clicked..

Maybe the exact reason people continue to do it is to drop "tri ppl". Seems like a strange request: "Please make other people race in such a way as to play to my strength instead of theirs."

After the first few races I noticed the hammer start as well... I did one race where I properly seeded myself ("C" group here) and pretty well dropped the hammer at the start. It was sort of fun to mix it up on the front for the first 5-10 minutes, then reality kicked in. Most of us slowed down and traded efforts at the front, with the occasional attack. Then some of the slower "B" riders came back to us and shattered the group as they would pull off the front harder, some guys would go with them, but myself and others didn't have the gas.

Yes I realize that's racing, but took some of the fun about racing in a group of 5-7 riders that were right at my level, tactically working to gain a bit of an advantage, but no one really strong enough to go off the front on their own for long. Put a B rider in there and some can hang on and pull away.

I've seen the same thing in outdoor group rides too when the fast group goes first, then a slower group second. Inevitably a few guys get dropped off of the fast group and come back to the slower group, but proceed to spend the rest of the ride "proving" to the rest of the slower riders that they really don't belong back here, which blows up the slower group.

Must agree with you here,becoming a bit selfish .I wish i did have a strength on the bike (think name says it all here)
Back to the drawing board, maybe better warmup ,speed sessions & high cadence drills

I did the KISS race this morning and the A group had a 5 minute head start on 3 loops of the Jungle Circuit. They passed me on my first loop going 4.5-5 W/KG consistent. All I can say to myself this is impossible.
I never seen pro's on Zwift go that hard.

I base all my results off of the ZwiftPower.com standings. I was doing the D group most of the winter until 1 month ago I started averaging 2.5-2.7/W/KG according to zwiftpower and results were not counting.
So I started doing the C group.

Since I use Zwiftpower, when in the D group I was always in first place because people either were too strong, or actual D group riders. We all stuck together until I would go hard at the end.

In the C group I noticed the fast start and I always get dropped in the beginning, but I know in the end the majority of the riders ahead of me there results will count on Zwiftpower. They all end up averaging higher than 3.1 W/KG.

I am still conflicted if I should stick with D and have other riders to stay with but not have my results count on Zwiftpower. Or continue with C group and stay mostly alone, but know my results count on Zwiftpower.

Yeah I find the blasting out of the gates a minor annoyance, but the result is typically that a small(er) group is established which I kinda like. I do the ZHR masters races and they seem to have a pretty good system of verifying people and their abilities (although by no means perfect). I wish they'd both a) bring back the 'burrito' power up (which stops anyone drafting you for a short period of time) and b) fix the 'blob' that makes it so hard to get/stay away or catch back on if you get gapped by just a few seconds. Racing on Zwift this year has definitely made me stronger.