Love it - there should be more of this.

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What a d-bag move from Guerra though.

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

more athlete need to stand up like this and send the clear message that once your caugh....your never welcome back.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Dude sprayed Gambles family and friends with champagne? Wow...someone should have knocked his teeth out.

That's one of the best RR I've ever read! He told it like it is, my hat's off to him.

i would have walked back on stage and punched him in the dick if he sprayed my family.

It is good to see Gambles taking a stance.

I wonder what would happen if before the race even started all the pros said to the RD we aren't racing if
you are knowingly allowing an athlete with a history of doping to participate?

I read the entire thing and liked the read. Relative to your question, how does a race director not allow someone who is legally entitled to race from racing. I believe Gerardmer is part of the Challenge group of races and they are locally governed under national federation rules, making it legal for the ex cyclist doper to race. Having said that, I believe that Fexlix from Challenge has said no ex doper will ever get a pro invite to Roth, so not sure how he does it. For example, I don't believe that WTC can keep Antonio Colom of of WTC races. He was suspended for doping as a pro cyclist. He is still the holder of the Mortirolo stage from the 2008 Giro....after his suspension was complete, he got into triathlon and later won IM Frankfurt 2014 and won the 2014 70.3 World's in Tremblant in 35-39

He doped, he got suspended, served his ban and returned to racing. He's allowed to do so. Maybe the rule needs to be changed but until it is changed, it is the rule. Who's this Gambles dude to decide that such or such athlete is not welcome to race anymore? The "pro" thing to do would have been to accept the ruling of his governing body, suck it up and acknowledge the winner's victory. Then find means to make his opinion known, other than by shaming him on stage.

I'm all for tougher sentences towards dopers. But I don't think they should be ostracize or discriminated against beyond what the ruling called for.

oh boy...

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if you can read this
YOU'RE DRAFTING!

The doper would still win the money.

Sometimes punishments handed down aren't really enough. Sometimes, extra steps can be taken by the public to further place sanctions on someone who has wronged the public in some way. The justice system isn't always the best system for doling out punishments.
Good for him for taking a stand.

side rant, my work firewall blocked access because the site has been categorized as , "Gambling". You can't make this stuff up.

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--------------------------
The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

All Gambles did was decline to shake his hand. Going after someone's family is way over the line and speaks volumes about Guerra's character (or lack thereof.)

This is how I wrote the race story:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...rardmer_XL_5328.html


H

Gerardmer is not under Challenge. It's a historic race. Maybe 29th edition.

Is anybody else struggling to view the OP's link?

Those are some slow bike splits. That must be one heck of a great bike course!

I don't know. Mixed feelings. I am not entirely comfortable with the whole refusing to applaud for the winner or shake their hand. It seems childish to me. I don't think there is a solution since the person served their ban. If he doesn't want to compete against "dopers", he should probably be venting some of this concern to the race directors and governing bodies that allow the athlete to compete.

Who was the genius that gave him a magnum of champagne at a banquet? Did they expect him to go round to tables pouring it out to audience members?

There is a real cognitive dissonance here in that I'll be upset at some one who's ethics allows them to cheat but if I'm offered a cheque I can look past alleged shady behaviour.

So I wonder if guerra had paid him cash would he have been OK with finishing second and shook his hand

this is a story of doper in sport. Try to stay on track....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Who sponsors Guerra anyway? (No, I won't google it....don't want to give him any visits to a webpage.) And more importantly, why would they sponsor him? A convicted doper that's now arguably a mediocre pro: what would be the upside to sponsoring a guy like this?

Any of these races are private enterprise. They can deny someone entry for any reason that is allowable under the law. Like, "no shirt, no service."

There's no doubt that any of these races COULD disallow someone convicted of doping from starting. The question is SHOULD they? I don't know. WADA has set up the code to allow athletes to serve their suspension and then return. It's not a perfect system, but it's the best we've got for now.

WTC could indeed disallow Colom. But as a WADA signatory, what does it achieve? WTC supports the WADA Code. Disallowing Colom, who served his suspension, would undercut that.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Awesome... this site is blocked by my employer because it's a "gambling site". Ummm, no.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Or its a story about a guy who gets caught does his time and beats someone who's to por a sport to congratulate a winner due to his past but apparently isnt above setting aside moral considerations if cash is involved

All depends how you look at it

Carry on

ok, now you're back almost on track. there is a lot of issue to discuss and you can start another thread about the money/team issue. I think it would be interesting

But it doesn't change the stand that elite athletes do in triathlon. While the system is poor and give a second chance, there is a very strong part of the professional that take on them to pass a clear message that a second chance doesn't exist in professional triatlon. I would had done the same thing when racing as a professional and i do this as a coach of other professional athletes.

There is no such thing as doing your time when caught for EPO. The advantage carry much longer than the sanction. Those athletes aren't welcome anymore. This isn't cycling where drugs and doping as still very well accepted by the sport.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Part of "doing your time" is getting shat on if you choose to return. People will glare at you, people will talk shit about you behind your back, to your face, and on the internet. People will wear "dopers suck" t-shirts on the podium and refuse to shake your hand. If you're lucky, people will throw bags of piss on you. Being suspended from competition for 2 years is only part of the punishment. Dopers beware.

Gambles and all the other athletes have every right not to applaud or shake his hand. If that is too much for Guerra to handle then he's even weaker than his cheater past indicates. Spraying champagne on Gamble's family? Disgusting behavior, but we already know he is willing to do disgusting things to himself and other people so we should not be suprised.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

  

But it doesn't change the stand that elite athletes do in triathlon. While the system is poor and give a second chance, there is a very strong part of the professional that take on them to pass a clear message that a second chance doesn't exist in professional triatlon. I would had done the same thing when racing as a professional and i do this as a coach of other professional athletes.

There is no such thing as doing your time when caught for EPO. The advantage carry much longer than the sanction. Those athletes aren't welcome anymore. This isn't cycling where drugs and doping as still very well accepted by the sport.[/quote]
I agree. I think if you have been banned for something likeEPO, and even after a return you should not be eligible for prize purse.

X 2

Would have been worth whatever sanction WTC handed down

What a lowlife slimeball

The story sounds like bullshit. He was minding his own business, didn't shake hands, was just quiet and smug as can be about his unassailable integrity and dignity, and then, quick as a cat, a raging Guerra chewed off the top of the Champagne bottle with his teeth and sprayed his family. I suspect a few words being exchanged was left out of the story.

Sort of my point, apparently his integrity is directly proportional to the level of compensation received

Podiums are going to be awesome now if you've a doper and one of the thirteen - the insults could be epic

I guess I'll be the only one. I think they both acted childish. If Joe really wanted to make a statement (and I can't pretend to understand having to walk a fine line of corporate keeping happy and sponsor keeping happy and your own ethics) it would seem to me that he could have worn a shirt like some other pro did (as there is precedent) "Dopers Suck" or something other than throwing a water bottle. i certainly would have had words, but throwing things is on par with spraying with champagne when it could be argued and there is precedent for winners spraying the crowd and other podium winners during the ceremony. it could have been seen as joe being way out of line and the winner simply celebrating. aamof i'm having to take joe's word that the spray was vindictive as it seems like a normal thing that is done at a ceremony.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

So even if words were said what does that matter? I think I learned in 3rd grade that if someone says something to you which you don't like, it isn't ok to hit them. or in this case spray someone with champagne.

While it might not excuse Guerra's actions, it would certainly change the tone of the story, wouldn't it? Instead of a delicate snowflake making a subtle statement against doping and getting sprayed without cause, it would be a poor loser doing his best to ruin the moment of someone who doped years ago in a different sport with a completely different mentality about the acceptance of PEDs and then things escalating from there.

Well said.. In our society, people are given second a chance .. and sometimes a third chance.. Felons get back on the streets and it's tough for them to find work because they're branded a felon. The guy is clean right now (supposedly) and therefore he should not be treated as a doper. Even in the Olympics, Justin Gatlin did his suspension and came back to win bronze.

See JonnyO's response above. The benefits from doping last well beyond the ban.

I believe that statement is unproven and unlikely. The human body tends to fall back into equilibrium once you stop doing something that pulled you up. For example, if you normally run a 10K in 45minutes but you do special training that gets you to the 43 min pace... if you suddenly stop that special training, you probably go back to the 45 min pace. Maybe a bad example but things tend to go back to normal.

Reminds me of Chris Brown (singer) getting upset that people were still giving him crap over hitting his girlfriend. He said something about people should move on because it was a while ago and he's over it and been in court for it. No, dude. You don't get to decide when everybody else is over something. And that's the risk you take when behaving badly.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

I have no evidence to back this up, however, Person A and Person B both train the same way for 5 years. Person A is on EPO for 5 years and is able to train harder, longer, and recover faster than Person B and thus, gets faster than Person B. Person A gets popped for EPO and goes off the juice. How long does it take for Person A to get back the level Person B was at the whole time by training pure? 2 years? 5 years? Who knows. In my opinion, based on absolutely nothing but my gut and what seems logical, Person A will always be at a level beyond Person B as he was able to train beyond them for many years.

Seems like there are lots of possibilities perspectives/explanations for a former doper like this. Two of the more extreme ends might be:

1.) Guy is a psychopath/asshole willing to cheat in any and every way. He got caught doping as a pro cyclist and has moved on to easier pickings in triathlon where he is still cheating but hasn't been caught yet.
2.) Guy was a naive young man put in a tough situation with a sport/team that was dirty and made some poor decisions that he regrets. After being caught he decided to move on to a sport with fewer temptations to cheat and is trying to re-create himself there as a clean athlete.

I'm amazed that so many people seem to immediately assume something close to scenario #1. I don't know this particular guy at all and maybe that scenario is closest to the truth, but I'm inclined to think the story is more nuanced than that the guy is essentially just "evil".

x2

Kathy,
According to the blog Joe did not throw a water bottle: his dad did. According to the blog Joe simply did not shake hands.

Apologist! Get him!


+1 Just like the story told by Gambles of what he felt happened at the banquet, there are likely a few different versions of why Guerra doped. I've not seen anything on that end, which I think most tend not to care about.

Looking over the splits, Guerra's doping past must only be helping him on that bike, or maybe he's still a hell of biker without the juice...

One thing I think we as a sport do far better than T&F or cycling is stand up as pros and tell convicted dopers (& by doper I mean true intending doping like blood transfusion or EPO) to fuck off and go away. I think this is great because it curbs any opportunity of omertà. Cycling got its mess because everyone was silent and were chasing each other in the dope race to the sky. Decades long too. Triathlon is saying NO YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE. And that collective behavior is far better than any drug test because it's a test of your peers. And, I think collectively we are protective especially of former doped cyclists crossing over to SBR because with them comes a culture.

I read this story to my wife and her face turned to pure and total hilarity and then she said "I can only imagine what you'd do if he sprayed me and your dad with champagne like that!!!" Certainly faster than Ali v Liston he'd be on the deck. I'm not saying that with any particular pride either....that's just fight or flight mentality and some dude just sprayed my family!!

Now...I will say I don't judged this guy for doing EPO in cycling. I don't know where he came from, don't know his circumstance as to what life cycling could give him from what life he grew up with etc....I grew up silver spoon so his decision to dope and circumstance that led to it I won't judge. But I will say it's 2015 not 1998...go chase your dragon back on 2 wheels....in SBR...in this era...you are not welcomed.

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@rhyspencer

"The benefits from doping last well beyond the ban." The current science agrees with the preceding statement, and not your disbelief in this possibility. Science feels it's more clear cut: that doping provides a life long advantage. Gambles, was robbed of his win, but unfortunately the rules about doping are the world that pros must operate in- whether they are clean or dirty.

http://www.bbc.com/...environment-24730151

http://www.bbc.com/...0/athletics/29510575

If you remove psychopath and evil from scenario #1 it's a lot closer to the truth most of the time than scenario #2, which is a very naive scenario ime.

Doping controls are not enough so peer pressure and non acceptance from fans and sponsors are the most effective deterrents against doping. There's no question, according to the current rules, that convicted dopers have as much right to race again as anyone else after serving their ban. However, the rest of us have as much right to not welcome them back or support them when they start racing again.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

I'd go with a hell of a biker. These guys show BOATLOADS of talent before they're ever shuttled near the pro ranks (and the doping).

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Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

https://triomultisport.com/
http://www.mjolnircycles.com/

Says nothing about EPO use.

Agreed. Should have been pinkish...

thank you for providing these links. i thought i had remembered reading the same but was too lazy to find the links. :)

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

There was a really interesting discussion on Universal during the Vuelta coverage yesterday. The commentator said that Frank Schleck had been "struggling since his return to competition and was not able to reach his former abilities".

I thought "Really? Frank was doped to the gills in his glory days and now maybe he is racing cleaner." Maybe Frank wants to see what he can do "less doped" (maybe even clean...who knows).

I actually found it fun watching a human Frank Schleck winning that insane stage at the Vuelta.

I don't know, maybe these guys are less evil than we assume. Maybe they get caught up as young men chasing their chilldhoodd protour dreams. It would be no different than a high school football superstar getting recruited for Div 1 football and being subtly told by coaches and trainers that the only way he is making the starting line up is get on the program, improve his squat 20 percent, improve his bench press, beef up 40 lbs and shave O.5 seconds off his 40 yard dash. Serious question...how many college kids are not going to get on the plan. Next step NFL or next step bench warmer in Arena football.

If I look at what it would take Antonio Colom to win the Mortirolo in the Giro 2008 vs. Have the top bike split at the Mallorca 70.3 or the 70.3 World's the delta would be in line with being relatively clean now.

But coming back to Rapp's point, if WTC, or Challeng or the organizers of Gerardmer won't close their races to these guys, then shaming them would only go so far (and they may truly regret their past). Better maybe to put pressure on race organizers not the former dopers directly.

On Jonnyo's point about the effects lasting a long time, in Tyler's book he was talking about the strength not being in the legs, but in the blood. When the blood values return to normal natural ranges, it seems that the performances of these guys becomes human again. A few examples I can think of include David Miller, Frank Schleck, Nina Kraft and even a "more human" Contador because, I suppose you could say the "human version" of these athletes is a higher level than what they would have been.

i understood that and did not make my post very clear. thanks for clarifying.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

With all your knowledge of the sport, if you think a cyclist, during the 2000s only took EPO, and not testosterone, among other PEDs than I have a bridge to sell you. That's giving you the benefit of the doubt that EPO doesn't give long term benefits, which I feel is probably not the case.

Things like the Stanford prison experiment or the Milgram experiment suggest that we are more susceptible to situational behavior than most people think. I suspect that many of us would not like what we would find out about ourselves if put in the positions of the typical pro cyclists who doped (or the football scenario you outlined). Note that doesn't mean I excuse their behavior and in fact based on that I have even more respect for those who were in similar situations and didn't dope. That takes some impressive conviction, character and courage. It does however mean that not every doper is fundamentally lacking in character when they are in other situations.

You must not have done well in your science classes when you were in school, huh?.... You're comparing apples and oranges... First, the two articles you linked are for anabolic steroids.. and both articles say anabolic steroids could have a lasting effect... the keyword is "could" which is far from does have a lasting effect. That does not sound very convincing...

Also, Guerra was banned for EPO which is far from anabolic steriods lol.. UNless Guerra was trying to be a body builder on the side, that's like saying the recent study that vitamin C is bad for training means you should stop drinking OJ for training... and stop drinking chocolate milk, Gatorade or any other fluids just because all fluids are a like?... yes all doping is alike too?

Finally, I can find an article for anything.. EPO blood doping useless for elite athletes it says in this article, I guess must be true? http://www.mensfitness.com/...s-for-elite-athletes So according to that article, current science says Guerra had no performance enhancements other than the mental edge believing he had an enhancement?

I have been given varied info about EPO. Some say they go right back to an undoped level after the red blood cells die off. One rider claims he was worse afterward, which I find hard to believe. Others say there is a longtime or permanent benefit, but they described it as a neuromuscular benefit or efficiency benefit. Overall I doubt any of them can legitimately discern the possible longtime gains of EPO and transfusions from the gains of riding 30K a year for a decade plus.

you need to understand that EPO does also help in increasing training load. Over a few years, training load is the most important factor to performance. To squeeze more work in over a few years as long lasting effect. Now, if he got caught for the expensive EPO....he most likely had a few other ingrediant to help him during his cycling career. Testimony for other athlete in the same sport at the same time tell us the story of how the game was play.

But as i said, until you race professionally, putting it all on the line in a honest way and play by the rule, it might be hard to understand why clean triathlete take such strong stand against past doper. Cycling welcome them, and the sport as turn into a circus. In triathlon, your in for a rough go if you got caught. the peer pressure is one of the most effective way to push a athlete away.

The rules are the rules, they are allow to race back, but it dosnt mean we need to welcome them back. Race as a professional is a privilege and as huge influence on kids and up and comer..... i dont beleive in second chance for this privilege. I think Challenge roth is setting a great exemple in now allowing past doper in the pro field

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

You F with my family....shit gets real! Gambles has a "hall pass" from me!

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

 

[/quote]Apparently whoever wrote that sign needs to get a partial refund on his football scholarship/education...
"If your lucky enough..." and "you wont make enough..."
How about "if YOU'RE lucky enough..." and "you WON'T make enough..."
As a teacher for the past 23 years, seeing stuff like this is so frustrating.
And I teach science! If I taught English, I likely would have quit long ago!
Ugh.

Cheers,
John

Yes, Gamble's site has issues. Hit refresh a few times fixes it sometimes.

The EU has restraint of trade laws that make it tricky.

My guess is that officially the Pro entry fee for Roth is, say $10000, but if you get an invite you get it comp'd. So any ex doper pro could race if they wanted, but they'd need to pay their way.

I'm pretty sure that as a WADA signatory they can't disallow someone who has served their ban, without withdrawing from WADA first - or being expelled afterwards.

Joe Gambles sounds like a champ... Great race by him and well done.

I'm pretty certain that IF that is the case and a doper could demonstrate that it was only ex-dopers that were asked to pay that they can make the case that they are discriminated against

Here is our picture gallery from the race, and they do a great job with this annual triathlon extravaganza.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...rdmer_pics_5334.html

I concur that the story as told by Gambles seems to be missing the part where he tells us what provoked Guerra into behaving the way he did - not that that excuses how he behaved, but it does mitigate it.

Again though, this is another case of "Pros" not behaving in a professional manner.

Possibly - things will get trickier (for everyone) if/when an ex doper starts doing well in the sport. At the moment, the ex dopers are only winning/doing well at 2nd/3rd/4th tier races where there are no 1st tier pros, so the likes of Roth have the cover (if they need it) that they only invite athletes of a certain caliber. If one starts winning regional championships and other "big" races then it may prompt a change in stance from WTC/Challenge. But again, they will be limited by trade laws and WADA codes, etc.

this...

better not be close to me ever again cause shit will get real...

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

The media should report the news. The media should not skew the news that is presented to readers based on the writers opinions. Both the article on the race as well as the picture gallery pretend as if the male winner did not exist. If you want to write an op-ed on your opinion on ex-dopers in triathlon, then do it. But, don't cleanse the reporting of the race through a filter that excludes the winner because you (and many others, myself included) don't like the fact that an ex-doper is the winner.

The name "Guerra" is mentioned 8 times, and there's a two-paragraph blow-by-blow description of the battle between him and Gambles. That's hardly pretending he "did not exist."

But even then, I disagree in your assertion that Herbert (and other authors) must take an apparently "neutral" stance on doping. This is a triathlon results article, not AP coverage of immigration in Europe.

The 100m is a perfect example of what we all hope triathlon doesn't become.

My impression of initial reading of the article on the race was that the male winner had been downplayed in the article, but upon second reading I get less of that sense. Complete omission of the male winner in the gallery article screams to me as editorializing by selective omission. Both pieces are under the "Latest News" heading. I do think if you were to ask Herbert if he was giving the male winner short shrift in his coverage because no one is rooting for his success in triathlon due to his pro cycling doping background, I think the answer would be yes. I don't expect Herbert to be so candid, because he cannot be, but that's my guess.

I think they should have gone the other way and put his picture up there with the caption Ex-Doper wins race. We shouldn't be hiding or ignoring his past. We should embrace it and get it out there for all to see.
M~

Most substances are not PEDs, most substances people think are PEDs are still not actually PEDs. When you come to substances that truly are - like anabolic steroids - you have to consider whether the benefit is something that is worth doing. In almost any conceivable endurance sport anabolic steroids are useless. Unless you are using them to 'cut down' but that process would be a death sentence for an endurance athlete since you essentially starve yourself when you 'cut down'.

The more actual scientific evidence I see regarding PEDs the less impressed I am with them. Besides my already established attitude that no drug should be banned for almost any reason for adults; the evidence is weak that they do much of anything at all. Then we get into the very ethereal discussion on what is a PED, should we be banned from eating broccoli and spinach? The most powerful PED, simply put, is food. Elite athletes are under a different set of pressures than amateurs and it is akin to an arms build-up. Even if you don't need that shiny new missile you might as well have it because the other guy might have one. That, in of itself, is not evidence that PEDs actually work or that they are a good idea.

To someone else's point; doping certainly doesn't make you 'evil'. Stupid, maybe. Greedy, probably. Evil, that is a much different judgement indeed.

I generally had the same impression as you. Keep in mind that ST staff is not huge. In an ideal world, there would be 2 articles. One that just reports the story/race results without delving into the background of the winner, the other would be a separate editorial article that provides an opinion piece on a former doper playing and winning.

If you think doping only starts when they get near the pro ranks, you are sadly misinformed.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

A picture gallery is always listed as a lifestyle piece and not news or otherwise. So who is in and who is not is either up to what is available or suits the style of the author. But I am sorry to have disappointed you.