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IM Canada F40-44: new thread
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it seems as if the previous thread on this topic has exhausted its purpose. accordingly, from here on in i'd prefer that you limit your posts to anything that you want to say regarding the factual elements of this particular case. catching someone who has cut a course, yes, i'm all for that. these discussions serve a purpose, as we ought to have the expectation of fair sport and uncovering cases where contestants do not finish the prescribed course, whether inadvertently or on purpose, is helpful. this is where my interest in these threads starts and stops.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Aug 27, 15 16:51
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed. Here are a few facts that might have got lost that i think shouldn't be lost.

IMC 2015 - https://www.evernote.com/...WCz1MBPcKcOw23aJE-aM

Vancouver Half 2014 - https://www.evernote.com/...kUkynuvf8AAx7UQVPqh4

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Last edited by: Slowman: Aug 27, 15 17:24
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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I missed all the posts from today from the original thread. Why was it yanked? What happened today that caused it to be removed?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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i edited out her coach's statement from your post. most of that statement is fine. but there is some editorializing in there that really was not pertinent. what is notable is that he has cut ties with her. he appears by his statement to have lost confidence in the relationship. that speaks for itself.

data that supports the notion that she did not follow the prescribed course, that's fine. news about adjustments to her race history, such as her retroactive adjustment to her Subaru Vancouver Half finish. all that is just fact-based. that's fine.

to answer the person who asked what was wrong with the thread that is now gone from view, i don't find any of this fun. others do, but i don't. i place myself in the position of various parties and i don't see the entertainment value. i don't blame those who do see it, but i don't. we're all going to be in a different place in 2 years, 5 years, 10 years. kids will grow up. we will grow old. i prefer to keep to the facts, which i think will help everybody involved more easily move to whatever the next place is in their lives.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [rico] [ In reply to ]
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rico wrote:
I missed all the posts from today from the original thread. Why was it yanked? What happened today that caused it to be removed?

Last I read today people were making a lot of assumptions about Julie not based on facts...and a debate was going on about those assumptions. If her kids read the thread with just the factual points being made...fair enough...but I guess Slowman has a point that he doesn't want to foster a discussion about Julie based on total speculation.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough. At this point I'm just interested in what the organizations (USAT, ITU, WTC, etc.) are going to do about it, if anything. There's a history there, and a ban had better be forthcoming.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [mbwallis] [ In reply to ]
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mbwallis wrote:
Fair enough. At this point I'm just interested in what the organizations (USAT, ITU, WTC, etc.) are going to do about it, if anything. There's a history there, and a ban had better be forthcoming.

Not to mention examining the results and discerning whether, on the balance of probabilities, foul play occurred, and issuing a DQ if they believed it had occurred.

Swim. Overbike. Walk.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i don't find any of this fun. others do.


I actually think comments have been pretty restrained.
Last edited by: Slowman: Aug 27, 15 18:33
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [GrimOopNorth] [ In reply to ]
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GrimOopNorth wrote:
mbwallis wrote:
Fair enough. At this point I'm just interested in what the organizations (USAT, ITU, WTC, etc.) are going to do about it, if anything. There's a history there, and a ban had better be forthcoming.


Not to mention examining the results and discerning whether, on the balance of probabilities, foul play occurred, and issuing a DQ if they believed it had occurred.
When there's a demonstrated pattern of repeated course cutting, the penalty should be a lengthy ban from competition, not just a DQ for a particular race. To me, it is on par with doping.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Would it be fair to ask to establish fact on whether or not she, or someone representing her, communicated with you and suggested the original thread be taken down? Again not trying to cause trouble but I am curious. More of a life lesson for me with dealing with certain types of people - in case I have not made it clear before I am genuinely interested sociology. If my question is inappropriate, accept my apologies and feel free to delete it.


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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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spudone wrote:
GrimOopNorth wrote:
mbwallis wrote:
Fair enough. At this point I'm just interested in what the organizations (USAT, ITU, WTC, etc.) are going to do about it, if anything. There's a history there, and a ban had better be forthcoming.


Not to mention examining the results and discerning whether, on the balance of probabilities, foul play occurred, and issuing a DQ if they believed it had occurred.

When there's a demonstrated pattern of repeated course cutting, the penalty should be a lengthy ban from competition, not just a DQ for a particular race. To me, it is on par with doping.

I was thinking more of the people who's pocket she (may) have picked to get the podium. But yeah, ban for a reasonable and justifiable length of time, not just for her but also to serve as warning to other who may be tempted.

Swim. Overbike. Walk.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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spudone wrote:
GrimOopNorth wrote:
mbwallis wrote:
Fair enough. At this point I'm just interested in what the organizations (USAT, ITU, WTC, etc.) are going to do about it, if anything. There's a history there, and a ban had better be forthcoming.


Not to mention examining the results and discerning whether, on the balance of probabilities, foul play occurred, and issuing a DQ if they believed it had occurred.

When there's a demonstrated pattern of repeated course cutting, the penalty should be a lengthy ban from competition, not just a DQ for a particular race. To me, it is on par with doping.

A guy in Australia was banned for 2 years for doing this exact thing, almost a carbon copy.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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i hope you'll please pardon my snip of your comments. i understand how you feel. yes, the behavior that the data indicates happened harmed those who were unjustly kept from enjoying their reward. they are now, if belatedly, realizing the credit they are due.

i've spoken to a number of people who know her who, if you discount for a moment this silo of her behavior, have nothing but glowing comments about her. she's loved, admired, she's known to be giving, inspirational, and on and on. i can't speak about julie, i don't know her, and wouldn't try to characterize her if i did, but in my experience those who are loved and admired are often or usually loved and admired for good, valid and real reasons. everything that was thought good about them was good. most of us think of people in binary terms: good or bad, healthy or unhealthy. in my experience that's just not real life.

therefore i would prefer for those here to be circumspect, judicious, measured in their commentary. the actions on the field of play speak for themselves. i don't think they need amplification.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i hope you'll please pardon my snip of your comments. i understand how you feel. yes, the behavior that the data indicates happened harmed those who were unjustly kept from enjoying their reward. they are now, if belatedly, realizing the credit they are due.

i've spoken to a number of people who know her who, if you discount for a moment this silo of her behavior, have nothing but glowing comments about her. she's loved, admired, she's known to be giving, inspirational, and on and on. i can't speak about julie, i don't know her, and wouldn't try to characterize her if i did, but in my experience those who are loved and admired are often or usually loved and admired for good, valid and real reasons. everything that was thought good about them was good. most of us think of people in binary terms: good or bad, healthy or unhealthy. in my experience that's just not real life.

therefore i would prefer for those here to be circumspect, judicious, measured in their commentary. the actions on the field of play speak for themselves. i don't think they need amplification.


Yeah no worries and I totally get where you're coming from. I have no idea what kind of person she is, what her life has been like, what adversity she's had to deal with etc etc and besides I'm not exactly an angel (I go drunk and stole an old mans mobility scooter when I was at Uni/college), so I shouldn't be too quick to judge.
Last edited by: zedzded: Aug 27, 15 19:06
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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"Would it be fair to ask to establish fact on whether or not she, or someone representing her, communicated with you and suggested the original thread be taken down?"

over the last 2 days in particular i've spoken to a number of people who are close to or advocates of julie miller. i tried to listen to my sense of right and duty. that sense told me that we need a place in the sport where we can, as a community, come together, share notes, and where justice and fairness can increase. absent a clearinghouse like this we can't do that.

i therefore resisted the notion that these threads should come down. and, i still resist the idea. there just is no way i'm going to knuckle to that. but i continued to watch the threads and ask myself whether:

1. we were still engaged in fact-finding?
2. were those who wished to express opinions and process how they felt were given a proper opportunity?

all spirited threads eventually degrade. it's the nature of internet discussions. it seemed to me that the thread was starting to morph from information to entertainment. i therefore felt it time to curve this discussion back around to its most important elements.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"if you discount for a moment this silo of her behavior"


How can we possibly discount it?

I have some friends, non-cycling folk, who thought the world of LA and all the good he did. He preached the gospel and they were truly shaken to the core when they discovered the real truth about him and the sham his life/recovery etc turned out to be.

Different kind of cheating for sure, but the same (or at least similar) type of person.


Thanks to Euro-Sports for my H3Cs.

http://www.euro-sports.ca
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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So far we have had a DQ from Ironman Canada in 2015 and a stripping of results from the Vancouver Half Iron in 2014

There has been a lot of speculation regarding the performance of Julie Miller at the ITU Long Course World Championship in China in 2014.

A run that decimated all in her age group - 1hr 23m 43s (some 6 minutes faster than anyone else in her AG over just 20km) and a run that decimated most of the pro / elite female field (she had the 4th Fastest Female time compared to all Elite/ Pro Women - beating Andrea Hewett (NZ) and Laura Bennett (USA)

The lady who came 2nd in the 40-44 Age Group, thereby losing the right to call herself a World Champion, is Victoria Hill who was representing Great Britain. Victoria is a super consistent athlete and a great runner. Following the recent DQ's and after a year of uncertainly she has decided to come forward with her version of events at that World Championship race.

Here's what she had to say:

Quote:

At the time in Weihai, the result was always a mystery. Julie had clearly crossed the line in front of me..... I only clocked [saw] her on our last lap. I knew I was catching her, there was no way she is a faster runner than me. At the finish, the results said I had won which of course she challenged. She had crossed the line in front of me so I accepted I had come 2nd. The results were a debacle, it took ages for them to do our awards ceremony and then it transpired that her chip had been lost/something went wrong with it. I had no reason to think otherwise.

When the results finally came out on the website, it showed that she had come off the bike after me and then ran a faster time than me. I always knew this was wrong as I know for a fact no girl past me on the run. As this part is my strength, I normally do the passing on the run so would be well aware of another female passing me. The results only got published on line the next day and I never challenged it. In hindsight, of course I should have done but I just assumed she had come off the bike well in front of me and that I could not quite get her on the run. It was a 3 lap bike and a 4 lap run so somewhere she obviously ....


The third placed girl is also in contact with Victoria and they are looking to pursue the matter with ITU.

.

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Last edited by: JayPeeWhy: Aug 27, 15 19:28
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [boney] [ In reply to ]
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"How can we possibly discount it?"

let me put it this way. JFK cheated on his wife, was true to his country. Nixon cheated on his country, was true to his wife. we want to think of people in binary terms. in my experience, people aren't binary. i have foxhole friends upon whom i absolutely rely who i would never in a million years trust in business, or trust in love. i didn't grow up thinking this. i just was constrained by experience to change my view.

you brought up lance. i've known lance since he was a teenager, and i'm here to tell you - regardless of the shit i'll take for it - he's one of those foxhole types. there are any number of areas where i would absolutely trust lance and rely upon him. in fact, i'm beyond certain lance would never cut a course. but lance has areas where he is just not honorable. those who know me implicitly might say in response to that: pot-kettle.

i don't know julie, but if you're asking for my best uneducated guess those who felt she was a true friend, a loving wife and mom, a great worker, a tireless volunteer, etc., etc., did not lose the true friend, loving mom, etc. so, those folks can take this behavior we're discussing, set it aside for a moment, and consider the rest. i doubt the rest has changed.

the evidence discussed points to a silo of her life that doesn't comport with the rest, but that doesn't mean all the rest need be discounted.




Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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i looked hard at those WC results and unless i'm wrong victoria had the fastest female AG run of the day, all AGs. and she was 6min down on julie's run. i am very suspicious of this run. it makes no sense in the context of all her other results.

this, you may talk about. i hope you will talk about it. i hope the truth is found out about this WC race. this run split does not comport with all the rest of her results. further, her superhuman results are either in the bike, but not the run, or they're on the run, but not the bike. i have been in the sport since the beginning. i've seen it all. i've seen the entire arc of the sport. nobody ever has exhibited that kind of performance behavior while racing.

consequently, this deserves an explanation. i would like that china WC race thoroughly vetted, such results discussed right here. i hope you don't think i want to quash that discussion.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Local town news from up here.
<http://www.squamishchief.com/...om-ironman-1.2040964


Vancouver Half, OMG those P1 bike splits stand out very obviously - I am surprised it wasn't raised or passed on to scoring by someone in the category.

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://www.jagersport.com/
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"

you brought up lance. i've known lance since he was a teenager, and i'm here to tell you - regardless of the shit i'll take for it - he's one of those foxhole types. there are any number of areas where i would absolutely trust lance and rely upon him.


I've got mates that you wouldn't trust to be alone with your wife for 1 minute, but you know when the sh*t hits the fan, they'll be the first person to help you out and I can imagine LA being that type of guy. A complete paradox...
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i looked hard at those WC results and unless i'm wrong victoria had the fastest female AG run of the day, all AGs. and she was 6min down on julie's run. i am very suspicious of this run. it makes no sense in the context of all her other results.

this, you may talk about. i hope you will talk about it. i hope the truth is found out about this WC race. this run split does not comport with all the rest of her results. further, her superhuman results are either in the bike, but not the run, or they're on the run, but not the bike. i have been in the sport since the beginning. i've seen it all. i've seen the entire arc of the sport. nobody ever has exhibited that kind of performance behavior while racing.

consequently, this deserves an explanation. i would like that china WC race thoroughly vetted, such results discussed right here. i hope you don't think i want to quash that discussion.

You want to quash the public shaming and ridicule - and I commend you for it. Surely you recognize that most of that is borne out of frustration - with RDs and organizations who do not act promptly upon being notified of glaring irregularities in the results or, in one case, eye witness accounts of course-cutting. But here the arc of the moral universe is bending toward justice. More DQs will surely follow. And she does not need to be a human pińata for that to happen.

I was not deprived of an AG award or World Championship - nor did I donate miles or money to pay for her exotic travels - so I am not owed an apology. But others were so deprived (and taken). Hopefully an apology will be forthcoming.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i would like that china WC race thoroughly vetted, such results discussed right here. i hope you don't think i want to quash that discussion.

Having a look at her China results, she was top 3 in all 3 legs, so she must be an OK athlete? Cheating in one leg is doable, but in all three would be tricky, I would have thought.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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"Having a look at her China results, she was top 3 in all 3 legs"

no. in her AG 5th swim, 4th bike, 1st run. pretty good athlete, no doubt. but the swim was 12min or so behind the first in the AG. this is why some bring up the uncommon speed shown in that 57min canada swim. nothing wrong at all with the bike ride. it's that run. when you outsplit numerous olympians still having solid careers, one expects that run to be consistent throughout one's racing.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i looked hard at those WC results and unless i'm wrong victoria had the fastest female AG run of the day, all AGs. and she was 6min down on julie's run. i am very suspicious of this run. it makes no sense in the context of all her other results.

this, you may talk about. i hope you will talk about it. i hope the truth is found out about this WC race. this run split does not comport with all the rest of her results. further, her superhuman results are either in the bike, but not the run, or they're on the run, but not the bike. i have been in the sport since the beginning. i've seen it all. i've seen the entire arc of the sport. nobody ever has exhibited that kind of performance behavior while racing.

consequently, this deserves an explanation. i would like that china WC race thoroughly vetted, such results discussed right here. i hope you don't think i want to quash that discussion.

Doesn't there come a point where all significant results should be vacated? We do it with dopers. And this was pretty much as long lived and systematic as any doping regimen. As you point out, the course cutting had to be well planned out and timing weaknesses identified. She had to pick the spots on the swim, bike, and /or run that would not raise immediate flags. These aren't just moment of weakness, race not going well instances. We've all (well at least I have) had those times when a race goes down the tubes and you can see that if I just cut through here I can end this sooner moments. Almost all of us resist that, but this isn't that.

I know there are a lot of governing bodies involved and no overarching organization. But when someone has cheated this consistently and at the highest levels I don't think there is any result that should be given credit. Mike Rossi was accused of cutting the course to get to Boston, but he didn't win his age group by 20 minutes.

We are so fucked.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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I missed what the other podium females where saying on the awards stage. What was said? Curious.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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JayPeeWhy wrote:
So far we have had a DQ from Ironman Canada in 2015 and a stripping of results from the Vancouver Half Iron in 2014

There has been a lot of speculation regarding the performance of Julie Miller at the ITU Long Course World Championship in China in 2014.

A run that decimated all in her age group - 1hr 23m 43s (some 6 minutes faster than anyone else in her AG over just 20km) and a run that decimated most of the pro / elite female field (she had the 4th Fastest Female time compared to all Elite/ Pro Women - beating Andrea Hewett (NZ) and Laura Bennett (USA)

The lady who came 2nd in the 40-44 Age Group, thereby losing the right to call herself a World Champion, is Victoria Hill who was representing Great Britain. Victoria is a super consistent athlete and a great runner. Following the recent DQ's and after a year of uncertainly she has decided to come forward with her version of events at that World Championship race.

Here's what she had to say:

Quote:

At the time in Weihai, the result was always a mystery. Julie had clearly crossed the line in front of me..... I only clocked [saw] her on our last lap. I knew I was catching her, there was no way she is a faster runner than me. At the finish, the results said I had won which of course she challenged. She had crossed the line in front of me so I accepted I had come 2nd. The results were a debacle, it took ages for them to do our awards ceremony and then it transpired that her chip had been lost/something went wrong with it. I had no reason to think otherwise.

When the results finally came out on the website, it showed that she had come off the bike after me and then ran a faster time than me. I always knew this was wrong as I know for a fact no girl past me on the run. As this part is my strength, I normally do the passing on the run so would be well aware of another female passing me. The results only got published on line the next day and I never challenged it. In hindsight, of course I should have done but I just assumed she had come off the bike well in front of me and that I could not quite get her on the run. It was a 3 lap bike and a 4 lap run so somewhere she obviously ....


The third placed girl is also in contact with Victoria and they are looking to pursue the matter with ITU.

.

In the interest of honesty and transparency, can you disclose what affiliation you have with the people that the guilty party cheated?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
I missed what the other podium females where saying on the awards stage. What was said? Curious.

x2, calling jaypee!
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [boney] [ In reply to ]
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boney wrote:
"if you discount for a moment this silo of her behavior"


How can we possibly discount it?

I have some friends, non-cycling folk, who thought the world of LA and all the good he did. He preached the gospel and they were truly shaken to the core when they discovered the real truth about him and the sham his life/recovery etc turned out to be.

Different kind of cheating for sure, but the same (or at least similar) type of person.

Hardly. One person has millions of dollars to benefit from, and another is an AGer. I'd be more disappointed in LA if he didn't "level" the playing field.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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Good job, JayPeeWhy. It's important to keep the baseline facts in a/the thread. This needs to be on the record to create some energy towards a resolution (in whatever form that may take...admission of guilt, apology, suspension, banishment...whatever). Perhaps it will also serve as a deterrent to those who may consider being a little too creative in getting to the finish line quickly in the future. I don't accept arbitrary censoring and am not happy that this thread has been censored, but I also respect that this shouldn't become a gong show, unmoderated free-for-all. The opinions expressed by the many serve to demonstrate a consistent and collective set of values....sportsmanship and fair play being among them. It is a means to an end...justice will not be denied. Fortunately, this has been allowed to play out on this forum to the point where it has achieved a critical mass and can't be ignored, regardless of the censorship.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
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He is married to one of the IMC podium finishers in JM's AG.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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wbattaile wrote:
He is married to one of the IMC podium finishers in JM's AG.

As JayPeeWhy's best friend in the whole world (just kidding) I must say, from the beginning, this had zero to do with Claire's placing. She had her Kona slot. This was, from the beginning, the absolute questioning of the legitimacy of the first place racer by other podium members and outside observers who questioned her in this race and previous events. I assure you, his pursuit of the truth here had very little to do with where his wife stood on the podium. She was going to suffer with him in Kona either way that this went.

Brent

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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dfru wrote:
wbattaile wrote:
He is married to one of the IMC podium finishers in JM's AG.


As JayPeeWhy's best friend in the whole world (just kidding) I must say, from the beginning, this had zero to do with Claire's placing. She had her Kona slot. This was, from the beginning, the absolute questioning of the legitimacy of the first place racer by other podium members and outside observers who questioned her in this race and previous events. I assure you, his pursuit of the truth here had very little to do with where his wife stood on the podium. She was going to suffer with him in Kona either way that this went.

Brent
\

Which is why, of course, he disclosed his conflict of interest in the very beginning because it didn't matter. Oops, oh wait.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"How can we possibly discount it?"

let me put it this way. JFK cheated on his wife, was true to his country. Nixon cheated on his country, was true to his wife. we want to think of people in binary terms. in my experience, people aren't binary. i have foxhole friends upon whom i absolutely rely who i would never in a million years trust in business, or trust in love. i didn't grow up thinking this. i just was constrained by experience to change my view.

you brought up lance. i've known lance since he was a teenager, and i'm here to tell you - regardless of the shit i'll take for it - he's one of those foxhole types. there are any number of areas where i would absolutely trust lance and rely upon him. in fact, i'm beyond certain lance would never cut a course. but lance has areas where he is just not honorable. those who know me implicitly might say in response to that: pot-kettle.

i don't know julie, but if you're asking for my best uneducated guess those who felt she was a true friend, a loving wife and mom, a great worker, a tireless volunteer, etc., etc., did not lose the true friend, loving mom, etc. so, those folks can take this behavior we're discussing, set it aside for a moment, and consider the rest. i doubt the rest has changed.

the evidence discussed points to a silo of her life that doesn't comport with the rest, but that doesn't mean all the rest need be discounted.

Comparing Lance's situation to an AGer is off base because he had so much more to gain. But at the same time, consider that he could (somewhat legitimately) believe he was "leveling the playing field" and "everyone was doing it". In contrast, she knows exactly what she's doing, and there's no fooling oneself that "everyone's cutting the course".

She may be everything her friends say outside of racing, but it is fairly irrelevant to this discussion.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
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aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
wbattaile wrote:
He is married to one of the IMC podium finishers in JM's AG.


As JayPeeWhy's best friend in the whole world (just kidding) I must say, from the beginning, this had zero to do with Claire's placing. She had her Kona slot. This was, from the beginning, the absolute questioning of the legitimacy of the first place racer by other podium members and outside observers who questioned her in this race and previous events. I assure you, his pursuit of the truth here had very little to do with where his wife stood on the podium. She was going to suffer with him in Kona either way that this went.

Brent
\

Which is why, of course, he disclosed his conflict of interest in the very beginning because it didn't matter. Oops, oh wait.

Pretty sure he disclosed it on the other thread.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't know anyone on this board, and with the other thread down cannot be sure - but I believe it was disclosed on the other thread. Sometimes when a conversation starts, it can continue on without going back and repeating yourself.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, just offering up a possible explanation. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Jason
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Dan Funk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
+1

I type too slow.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
wbattaile wrote:
He is married to one of the IMC podium finishers in JM's AG.


As JayPeeWhy's best friend in the whole world (just kidding) I must say, from the beginning, this had zero to do with Claire's placing. She had her Kona slot. This was, from the beginning, the absolute questioning of the legitimacy of the first place racer by other podium members and outside observers who questioned her in this race and previous events. I assure you, his pursuit of the truth here had very little to do with where his wife stood on the podium. She was going to suffer with him in Kona either way that this went.

Brent
\

Which is why, of course, he disclosed his conflict of interest in the very beginning because it didn't matter. Oops, oh wait.

There was a ton of behind the scenes stuff going on, of which I am not privy, and he put a good amount of it together. I don't see where his conflict of interest is. His wife did not win the AG. She is still going to Kona. Curious...did he do something wrong in bringing this to light?

Did I do something wrong in finding the Vancouver results from 2014?

This is a pattern of behavior (race behavior only, apparently) that if multiple people hadn't put it all together, would have resulted in Marla Zucht (sp) NOT going to Kona in a spot she earned. Having put it five IM attempts in to qualify for Kona myself (which I finally did at IMC, and I have GPS to back it up :) ) I know how hard she must've worked to get there. That fact, that the rightful 3rd placer got her spot to Kona, is the important part of this outcome. And for that I think JayPeeWhy should be commended.

Brent

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
He had disclosed he was married to one of the women early in the deleted thread.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
wbattaile wrote:
He is married to one of the IMC podium finishers in JM's AG.


As JayPeeWhy's best friend in the whole world (just kidding) I must say, from the beginning, this had zero to do with Claire's placing. She had her Kona slot. This was, from the beginning, the absolute questioning of the legitimacy of the first place racer by other podium members and outside observers who questioned her in this race and previous events. I assure you, his pursuit of the truth here had very little to do with where his wife stood on the podium. She was going to suffer with him in Kona either way that this went.

Brent
\

Which is why, of course, he disclosed his conflict of interest in the very beginning because it didn't matter. Oops, oh wait.

It has been disclosed several times. Apparently, you missed it, while many of the rest of us saw it.

------------------------
Loud pawls save lives
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [dfru] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dfru wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
wbattaile wrote:
He is married to one of the IMC podium finishers in JM's AG.


As JayPeeWhy's best friend in the whole world (just kidding) I must say, from the beginning, this had zero to do with Claire's placing. She had her Kona slot. This was, from the beginning, the absolute questioning of the legitimacy of the first place racer by other podium members and outside observers who questioned her in this race and previous events. I assure you, his pursuit of the truth here had very little to do with where his wife stood on the podium. She was going to suffer with him in Kona either way that this went.

Brent
\

Which is why, of course, he disclosed his conflict of interest in the very beginning because it didn't matter. Oops, oh wait.


There was a ton of behind the scenes stuff going on, of which I am not privy, and he put a good amount of it together. I don't see where his conflict of interest is. His wife did not win the AG. She is still going to Kona. Curious...did he do something wrong in bringing this to light?

Did I do something wrong in finding the Vancouver results from 2014?

This is a pattern of behavior (race behavior only, apparently) that if multiple people hadn't put it all together, would have resulted in Marla Zucht (sp) NOT going to Kona in a spot she earned. Having put it five IM attempts in to qualify for Kona myself (which I finally did at IMC, and I have GPS to back it up :) ) I know how hard she must've worked to get there. That fact, that the rightful 3rd placer got her spot to Kona, is the important part of this outcome. And for that I think JayPeeWhy should be commended.

Brent

His wife was involved in that AG, it's reasonable for people to expect him to disclose it. It's definitely in his interest to preface his comments since JM is pretty obviously guilty.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [BionicTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BionicTri wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
wbattaile wrote:
He is married to one of the IMC podium finishers in JM's AG.


As JayPeeWhy's best friend in the whole world (just kidding) I must say, from the beginning, this had zero to do with Claire's placing. She had her Kona slot. This was, from the beginning, the absolute questioning of the legitimacy of the first place racer by other podium members and outside observers who questioned her in this race and previous events. I assure you, his pursuit of the truth here had very little to do with where his wife stood on the podium. She was going to suffer with him in Kona either way that this went.

Brent
\

Which is why, of course, he disclosed his conflict of interest in the very beginning because it didn't matter. Oops, oh wait.


It has been disclosed several times. Apparently, you missed it, while many of the rest of us saw it.

No, it was disclosed in the previous thread, that got deleted. Non-biased people would want a record of that here. Apparently, the plane soared way over your head.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Writerguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
He not only disclosed it, he pointed out that his wife was the 'short, crazy one in the middle' in the photo showing the 5 podium finishers in the F40-44 AG. That's a fact, Jack.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
wbattaile wrote:
He is married to one of the IMC podium finishers in JM's AG.


As JayPeeWhy's best friend in the whole world (just kidding) I must say, from the beginning, this had zero to do with Claire's placing. She had her Kona slot. This was, from the beginning, the absolute questioning of the legitimacy of the first place racer by other podium members and outside observers who questioned her in this race and previous events. I assure you, his pursuit of the truth here had very little to do with where his wife stood on the podium. She was going to suffer with him in Kona either way that this went.

Brent
\

Which is why, of course, he disclosed his conflict of interest in the very beginning because it didn't matter. Oops, oh wait.


There was a ton of behind the scenes stuff going on, of which I am not privy, and he put a good amount of it together. I don't see where his conflict of interest is. His wife did not win the AG. She is still going to Kona. Curious...did he do something wrong in bringing this to light?

Did I do something wrong in finding the Vancouver results from 2014?

This is a pattern of behavior (race behavior only, apparently) that if multiple people hadn't put it all together, would have resulted in Marla Zucht (sp) NOT going to Kona in a spot she earned. Having put it five IM attempts in to qualify for Kona myself (which I finally did at IMC, and I have GPS to back it up :) ) I know how hard she must've worked to get there. That fact, that the rightful 3rd placer got her spot to Kona, is the important part of this outcome. And for that I think JayPeeWhy should be commended.

Brent


His wife was involved in that AG, it's reasonable for people to expect him to disclose it. It's definitely in his interest to preface his comments since JM is pretty obviously guilty.


It was in the other thread (I was pretty sure it was, but others confirmed it - I didn't pay attention since I know the Youngs) but in every discussion JPY and I have had in regards to this - every one - NEVER was Claire's placing discussed. So, with it already disclosed early, I'm glad we got it all cleared up!

Brent

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
Last edited by: dfru: Aug 27, 15 20:58
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [dfru] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dfru wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
wbattaile wrote:
He is married to one of the IMC podium finishers in JM's AG.


As JayPeeWhy's best friend in the whole world (just kidding) I must say, from the beginning, this had zero to do with Claire's placing. She had her Kona slot. This was, from the beginning, the absolute questioning of the legitimacy of the first place racer by other podium members and outside observers who questioned her in this race and previous events. I assure you, his pursuit of the truth here had very little to do with where his wife stood on the podium. She was going to suffer with him in Kona either way that this went.

Brent
\

Which is why, of course, he disclosed his conflict of interest in the very beginning because it didn't matter. Oops, oh wait.


There was a ton of behind the scenes stuff going on, of which I am not privy, and he put a good amount of it together. I don't see where his conflict of interest is. His wife did not win the AG. She is still going to Kona. Curious...did he do something wrong in bringing this to light?

Did I do something wrong in finding the Vancouver results from 2014?

This is a pattern of behavior (race behavior only, apparently) that if multiple people hadn't put it all together, would have resulted in Marla Zucht (sp) NOT going to Kona in a spot she earned. Having put it five IM attempts in to qualify for Kona myself (which I finally did at IMC, and I have GPS to back it up :) ) I know how hard she must've worked to get there. That fact, that the rightful 3rd placer got her spot to Kona, is the important part of this outcome. And for that I think JayPeeWhy should be commended.

Brent


His wife was involved in that AG, it's reasonable for people to expect him to disclose it. It's definitely in his interest to preface his comments since JM is pretty obviously guilty.


It was in the other thread (I was pretty sure it was, but others confirmed it - I didn't pay attention since I know the Youngs) but in every discussion JPY and I have had in regards to this - every one - NEVER was Claire's placing discussed. So, with it already disclosed early, I'm glad we got it all cleared up!

Brent

It was. Unfortunately, that entire thread was deleted and is now invisible to new readers...
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Runout] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Runout wrote:
He not only disclosed it, he pointed out that his wife was the 'short, crazy one in the middle' in the photo showing the 5 podium finishers in the F40-44 AG. That's a fact, Jack.

Yep, can you link the post? Oh wait...
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [spudone] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"She may be everything her friends say outside of racing, but it is fairly irrelevant to this discussion."

if you're saying the relevant discussion is the recitation facts and the data that demonstrate race course behavior that is either in accordance or at odds with the rules, i'm with you, brother. very happy to host that discussion.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
aravilare wrote:
BionicTri wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
wbattaile wrote:
He is married to one of the IMC podium finishers in JM's AG.


As JayPeeWhy's best friend in the whole world (just kidding) I must say, from the beginning, this had zero to do with Claire's placing. She had her Kona slot. This was, from the beginning, the absolute questioning of the legitimacy of the first place racer by other podium members and outside observers who questioned her in this race and previous events. I assure you, his pursuit of the truth here had very little to do with where his wife stood on the podium. She was going to suffer with him in Kona either way that this went.

Brent
\

Which is why, of course, he disclosed his conflict of interest in the very beginning because it didn't matter. Oops, oh wait.


It has been disclosed several times. Apparently, you missed it, while many of the rest of us saw it.

No, it was disclosed in the previous thread, that got deleted. Non-biased people would want a record of that here. Apparently, the plane soared way over your head.

Ha ha. Nice try. You aren't worth arguing with and the other responses to your posts are proving it. Good luck with your twitch hunt.

------------------------
Loud pawls save lives
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
aravilare wrote:
Runout wrote:
He not only disclosed it, he pointed out that his wife was the 'short, crazy one in the middle' in the photo showing the 5 podium finishers in the F40-44 AG. That's a fact, Jack.


Yep, can you link the post? Oh wait...

Pretty sure that everyone who is reading this thread has read the other thread as well. Don't know why you're still grasping at this.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [BionicTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BionicTri wrote:
aravilare wrote:
BionicTri wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
wbattaile wrote:
He is married to one of the IMC podium finishers in JM's AG.


As JayPeeWhy's best friend in the whole world (just kidding) I must say, from the beginning, this had zero to do with Claire's placing. She had her Kona slot. This was, from the beginning, the absolute questioning of the legitimacy of the first place racer by other podium members and outside observers who questioned her in this race and previous events. I assure you, his pursuit of the truth here had very little to do with where his wife stood on the podium. She was going to suffer with him in Kona either way that this went.

Brent
\

Which is why, of course, he disclosed his conflict of interest in the very beginning because it didn't matter. Oops, oh wait.


It has been disclosed several times. Apparently, you missed it, while many of the rest of us saw it.


No, it was disclosed in the previous thread, that got deleted. Non-biased people would want a record of that here. Apparently, the plane soared way over your head.


Ha ha. Nice try. You aren't worth arguing with and the other responses to your posts are proving it. Good luck with your twitch hunt.

Thanks! Good luck with Claire! Not sure white knights work, but maybe!
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
wbattaile wrote:
He is married to one of the IMC podium finishers in JM's AG.


As JayPeeWhy's best friend in the whole world (just kidding) I must say, from the beginning, this had zero to do with Claire's placing. She had her Kona slot. This was, from the beginning, the absolute questioning of the legitimacy of the first place racer by other podium members and outside observers who questioned her in this race and previous events. I assure you, his pursuit of the truth here had very little to do with where his wife stood on the podium. She was going to suffer with him in Kona either way that this went.

Brent
\

Which is why, of course, he disclosed his conflict of interest in the very beginning because it didn't matter. Oops, oh wait.


There was a ton of behind the scenes stuff going on, of which I am not privy, and he put a good amount of it together. I don't see where his conflict of interest is. His wife did not win the AG. She is still going to Kona. Curious...did he do something wrong in bringing this to light?

Did I do something wrong in finding the Vancouver results from 2014?

This is a pattern of behavior (race behavior only, apparently) that if multiple people hadn't put it all together, would have resulted in Marla Zucht (sp) NOT going to Kona in a spot she earned. Having put it five IM attempts in to qualify for Kona myself (which I finally did at IMC, and I have GPS to back it up :) ) I know how hard she must've worked to get there. That fact, that the rightful 3rd placer got her spot to Kona, is the important part of this outcome. And for that I think JayPeeWhy should be commended.

Brent


His wife was involved in that AG, it's reasonable for people to expect him to disclose it. It's definitely in his interest to preface his comments since JM is pretty obviously guilty.


It was in the other thread (I was pretty sure it was, but others confirmed it - I didn't pay attention since I know the Youngs) but in every discussion JPY and I have had in regards to this - every one - NEVER was Claire's placing discussed. So, with it already disclosed early, I'm glad we got it all cleared up!

Brent


It was. Unfortunately, that entire thread was deleted and is now invisible to new readers...

Good - he's done the right thing with responsible research and made sure he had all the facts before he brought this forward. A less honorable way to do it would to have been to post as we were behind the stage at results when we would have done something emotional, like accusing someone of conflict of interest...

Brent

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [walie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
walie wrote:
aravilare wrote:
Runout wrote:
He not only disclosed it, he pointed out that his wife was the 'short, crazy one in the middle' in the photo showing the 5 podium finishers in the F40-44 AG. That's a fact, Jack.


Yep, can you link the post? Oh wait...


Pretty sure that everyone who is reading this thread has read the other thread as well. Don't know why you're still grasping at this.

Do you have some mental disability? Everyone who didn't read ST daily for the last few days is going to just see this thread? GTFO of your microcosm and recognize that most people don't read ST daily, or even weekly.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
aravilare wrote:


Yep, can you link the post? Oh wait...


And what about your agenda? What are you trying to prove here? Can't you just let it go and move on? ..... Ggggeeeeeeeezzzz......
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You actually bring up a point worth discussing.
It's clear you felt that because he had an association with one of the other women in the age group that this was a "conflict of interest".
While I agree it's necessary to disclose that information I think it's fair for him to reveal relevant information about the "case".
Who better to shine a light on rule benders then those who are there, witness it first hand and are effected by it?
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [dfru] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dfru wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
wbattaile wrote:
He is married to one of the IMC podium finishers in JM's AG.


As JayPeeWhy's best friend in the whole world (just kidding) I must say, from the beginning, this had zero to do with Claire's placing. She had her Kona slot. This was, from the beginning, the absolute questioning of the legitimacy of the first place racer by other podium members and outside observers who questioned her in this race and previous events. I assure you, his pursuit of the truth here had very little to do with where his wife stood on the podium. She was going to suffer with him in Kona either way that this went.

Brent
\

Which is why, of course, he disclosed his conflict of interest in the very beginning because it didn't matter. Oops, oh wait.


There was a ton of behind the scenes stuff going on, of which I am not privy, and he put a good amount of it together. I don't see where his conflict of interest is. His wife did not win the AG. She is still going to Kona. Curious...did he do something wrong in bringing this to light?

Did I do something wrong in finding the Vancouver results from 2014?

This is a pattern of behavior (race behavior only, apparently) that if multiple people hadn't put it all together, would have resulted in Marla Zucht (sp) NOT going to Kona in a spot she earned. Having put it five IM attempts in to qualify for Kona myself (which I finally did at IMC, and I have GPS to back it up :) ) I know how hard she must've worked to get there. That fact, that the rightful 3rd placer got her spot to Kona, is the important part of this outcome. And for that I think JayPeeWhy should be commended.

Brent


His wife was involved in that AG, it's reasonable for people to expect him to disclose it. It's definitely in his interest to preface his comments since JM is pretty obviously guilty.


It was in the other thread (I was pretty sure it was, but others confirmed it - I didn't pay attention since I know the Youngs) but in every discussion JPY and I have had in regards to this - every one - NEVER was Claire's placing discussed. So, with it already disclosed early, I'm glad we got it all cleared up!

Brent


It was. Unfortunately, that entire thread was deleted and is now invisible to new readers...


Good - he's done the right thing with responsible research and made sure he had all the facts before he brought this forward. A less honorable way to do it would to have been to post as we were behind the stage at results when we would have done something emotional, like accusing someone of conflict of interest...

Brent

Da fuck? Reasonable ethical standards would dictate people disclose their biases upfront. It doesn't invalidate anything but not saying anything is definitely a bad sign.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
aravilare wrote:

In the interest of honesty and transparency, can you disclose what affiliation you have with the people that the guilty party cheated?

What, all of them?

Married to one. Not married to the others. It was mentioned very early in I think, and numerous times later on but it was in passing. 'my wife came third' or something similar. I have never met Julie Miller.

Powered by - Wave Physiotherapy | PB+J Coaching
Last edited by: JayPeeWhy: Aug 27, 15 21:31
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
wbattaile wrote:
He is married to one of the IMC podium finishers in JM's AG.


As JayPeeWhy's best friend in the whole world (just kidding) I must say, from the beginning, this had zero to do with Claire's placing. She had her Kona slot. This was, from the beginning, the absolute questioning of the legitimacy of the first place racer by other podium members and outside observers who questioned her in this race and previous events. I assure you, his pursuit of the truth here had very little to do with where his wife stood on the podium. She was going to suffer with him in Kona either way that this went.

Brent
\

Which is why, of course, he disclosed his conflict of interest in the very beginning because it didn't matter. Oops, oh wait.


There was a ton of behind the scenes stuff going on, of which I am not privy, and he put a good amount of it together. I don't see where his conflict of interest is. His wife did not win the AG. She is still going to Kona. Curious...did he do something wrong in bringing this to light?

Did I do something wrong in finding the Vancouver results from 2014?

This is a pattern of behavior (race behavior only, apparently) that if multiple people hadn't put it all together, would have resulted in Marla Zucht (sp) NOT going to Kona in a spot she earned. Having put it five IM attempts in to qualify for Kona myself (which I finally did at IMC, and I have GPS to back it up :) ) I know how hard she must've worked to get there. That fact, that the rightful 3rd placer got her spot to Kona, is the important part of this outcome. And for that I think JayPeeWhy should be commended.

Brent


His wife was involved in that AG, it's reasonable for people to expect him to disclose it. It's definitely in his interest to preface his comments since JM is pretty obviously guilty.


It was in the other thread (I was pretty sure it was, but others confirmed it - I didn't pay attention since I know the Youngs) but in every discussion JPY and I have had in regards to this - every one - NEVER was Claire's placing discussed. So, with it already disclosed early, I'm glad we got it all cleared up!

Brent


It was. Unfortunately, that entire thread was deleted and is now invisible to new readers...


Good - he's done the right thing with responsible research and made sure he had all the facts before he brought this forward. A less honorable way to do it would to have been to post as we were behind the stage at results when we would have done something emotional, like accusing someone of conflict of interest...

Brent


Da fuck? Reasonable ethical standards would dictate people disclose their biases upfront. It doesn't invalidate anything but not saying anything is definitely a bad sign.

OK, I think that it is established that he put it out there early. So, you are reaching for something. Not sure what it is. I hope you find it. There's really nothing to hide for him or his wife in this - she was going to Kona either way. So good luck with whatever the motivation here is. I think he has been very fair with this in being factual only.

Brent

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JayPeeWhy wrote:
aravilare wrote:

In the interest of honesty and transparency, can you disclose what affiliation you have with the people that the guilty party cheated?[/quote

What, all of them?

Married to one. Not married to the others. It was mentioned very early in I think, and numerous times later on but it was in passing. 'my wife came third' or something similar. I have never met Julie Miller.

Thank you for responding, best wishes.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [dfru] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dfru wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
aravilare wrote:
dfru wrote:
wbattaile wrote:
He is married to one of the IMC podium finishers in JM's AG.


As JayPeeWhy's best friend in the whole world (just kidding) I must say, from the beginning, this had zero to do with Claire's placing. She had her Kona slot. This was, from the beginning, the absolute questioning of the legitimacy of the first place racer by other podium members and outside observers who questioned her in this race and previous events. I assure you, his pursuit of the truth here had very little to do with where his wife stood on the podium. She was going to suffer with him in Kona either way that this went.

Brent
\

Which is why, of course, he disclosed his conflict of interest in the very beginning because it didn't matter. Oops, oh wait.


There was a ton of behind the scenes stuff going on, of which I am not privy, and he put a good amount of it together. I don't see where his conflict of interest is. His wife did not win the AG. She is still going to Kona. Curious...did he do something wrong in bringing this to light?

Did I do something wrong in finding the Vancouver results from 2014?

This is a pattern of behavior (race behavior only, apparently) that if multiple people hadn't put it all together, would have resulted in Marla Zucht (sp) NOT going to Kona in a spot she earned. Having put it five IM attempts in to qualify for Kona myself (which I finally did at IMC, and I have GPS to back it up :) ) I know how hard she must've worked to get there. That fact, that the rightful 3rd placer got her spot to Kona, is the important part of this outcome. And for that I think JayPeeWhy should be commended.

Brent


His wife was involved in that AG, it's reasonable for people to expect him to disclose it. It's definitely in his interest to preface his comments since JM is pretty obviously guilty.


It was in the other thread (I was pretty sure it was, but others confirmed it - I didn't pay attention since I know the Youngs) but in every discussion JPY and I have had in regards to this - every one - NEVER was Claire's placing discussed. So, with it already disclosed early, I'm glad we got it all cleared up!

Brent


It was. Unfortunately, that entire thread was deleted and is now invisible to new readers...


Good - he's done the right thing with responsible research and made sure he had all the facts before he brought this forward. A less honorable way to do it would to have been to post as we were behind the stage at results when we would have done something emotional, like accusing someone of conflict of interest...

Brent


Da fuck? Reasonable ethical standards would dictate people disclose their biases upfront. It doesn't invalidate anything but not saying anything is definitely a bad sign.


OK, I think that it is established that he put it out there early. So, you are reaching for something. Not sure what it is. I hope you find it. There's really nothing to hide for him or his wife in this - she was going to Kona either way. So good luck with whatever the motivation here is. I think he has been very fair with this in being factual only.

Brent

The other thread has been deleted.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
aravilare wrote:

The other thread has been deleted.

As your previous post related to jpy... Funny, eh, how things can be deleted sometimes ;)
Glad you find what you were looking for.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [playmobil31] [ In reply to ]
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playmobil31 wrote:
aravilare wrote:


The other thread has been deleted.


As your previous post related to jpy... Funny, eh, how things can be deleted sometimes ;)
Glad you find what you were looking for.

Nope.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [playmobil31] [ In reply to ]
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Is it really that hard to ignore him?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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spudone wrote:
GrimOopNorth wrote:
mbwallis wrote:
Fair enough. At this point I'm just interested in what the organizations (USAT, ITU, WTC, etc.) are going to do about it, if anything. There's a history there, and a ban had better be forthcoming.


Not to mention examining the results and discerning whether, on the balance of probabilities, foul play occurred, and issuing a DQ if they believed it had occurred.

When there's a demonstrated pattern of repeated course cutting, the penalty should be a lengthy ban from competition, not just a DQ for a particular race. To me, it is on par with doping.
I would say there is a substantial difference. If a cheater mends their ways, they can race on a level playing field, whereas I imagine a doper can retain some of the benefits from doping for quite a long time.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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JayPeeWhy:

I just got off the road after 8 hours to find a missing thread.

What was obvious to the girls on the podium in Whistler? What was their conversation? What did they know that we can use?

The thing I've been pondering is that the officials missed the fact that Julie beat the pro men in Vancouver for a couple of splits, but no one caught it until now.

What was obvious on that podium that we can use to prevent future cheating?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Pancks] [ In reply to ]
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Pancks wrote:
Is it really that hard to ignore him?

Don't feed the troll.

Swim. Overbike. Walk.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Pacific John] [ In reply to ]
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For questionable performances (especially those netting a podium, KQ, WCQ, BQ, etc.) it would be great to see the burden shifted to the athlete to validate their performance as a condition of qualifying.

Lost your chip, better make sure your Garmin is working. Forgot to start your Garmin, make sure your number is visible and pose extra-pretty for the race photogs.


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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Pacific John] [ In reply to ]
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when you're racing at the pointier end, you generally have a pretty acute sense of your own pacing, and are pretty aware of your competition, too. sometimes people just have great days, and sometimes somebody you don't know comes out of nowhere to win.
i'm sure most of the girls would be thinking, "i don't remember her passing me," or "i don't recognize her," or "i know that i should have run X given that course in this weather" or whatever. but it's a bit of a stretch for most of us to go from that to thinking that someone outright cheated - it's not usually where our minds go, first. you might assume a mistake on the athlete's part, or course volunteers misdirecting someone, or the timing being screwed up. i'm sure the first though was . . . "huh, that's weird."

it's also usually the case that after a big race you're tired and overwhelmed, and the results are often in a messy format (uncorrected for waves, 'gun vs chip' times, and so on). even after the fact, some of the results we've seen (like the world's results) have been a bit hard to read. it's only in the clear light of day when we sit down with a cup of tea and look over a few different races that something is clearly wrong.

i could imagine a way in which chip timing companies might be able to program their machines to 'beep' when an age-grouper put in a performance that deviated massively from the mean (or broke a world record!) or something, but maybe this process is always going to be at least somewhat retrospective.

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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JayPeeWhy wrote:
So far we have had a DQ from Ironman Canada in 2015 and a stripping of results from the Vancouver Half Iron in 2014

There has been a lot of speculation regarding the performance of Julie Miller at the ITU Long Course World Championship in China in 2014.

A run that decimated all in her age group - 1hr 23m 43s (some 6 minutes faster than anyone else in her AG over just 20km) and a run that decimated most of the pro / elite female field (she had the 4th Fastest Female time compared to all Elite/ Pro Women - beating Andrea Hewett (NZ) and Laura Bennett (USA)

The lady who came 2nd in the 40-44 Age Group, thereby losing the right to call herself a World Champion, is Victoria Hill who was representing Great Britain. Victoria is a super consistent athlete and a great runner. Following the recent DQ's and after a year of uncertainly she has decided to come forward with her version of events at that World Championship race.

Here's what she had to say:

Quote:

At the time in Weihai, the result was always a mystery. Julie had clearly crossed the line in front of me..... I only clocked [saw] her on our last lap. I knew I was catching her, there was no way she is a faster runner than me. At the finish, the results said I had won which of course she challenged. She had crossed the line in front of me so I accepted I had come 2nd. The results were a debacle, it took ages for them to do our awards ceremony and then it transpired that her chip had been lost/something went wrong with it. I had no reason to think otherwise.

When the results finally came out on the website, it showed that she had come off the bike after me and then ran a faster time than me. I always knew this was wrong as I know for a fact no girl past me on the run. As this part is my strength, I normally do the passing on the run so would be well aware of another female passing me. The results only got published on line the next day and I never challenged it. In hindsight, of course I should have done but I just assumed she had come off the bike well in front of me and that I could not quite get her on the run. It was a 3 lap bike and a 4 lap run so somewhere she obviously ....


The third placed girl is also in contact with Victoria and they are looking to pursue the matter with ITU.

.

I think the discussion needs to be turned more towards this (and no the credibility of JayPeeWhy, ref last 2 pages of this new thread). Thanks for posting the above. I also posted in the previous IMC-thread regarding JM's run in Weihai. 1:23 for 20K - running only slightly slower than most ELITE men - Craig Alexander had the by far fastest split that day with 1:09. This seems highly unlikley - as backed up by the post from JayPeeWhy above.

Just out of curiosity I found a map of what seems to be the 2014 Weihei Run-course. A 4-loop 5k: http://www.triathlon.org/...ts/LD_run_course.jpg

For me the run-split is evidence enough - pretty much in line with the bike-splits of lap 3+4 in Vancouver Half 2014. It is more than hard to believe that JM could run 1:23 for 20k on the back of a 4 hrs bike@just under 30 km/h. I am all for keeping the faith that I one day may truly perform to my potential and bust out a huge PR for a run-split in IM/HIM, but I think that this is just not realistic at the very pointy end of the field.

Sure: if your previous PR was - for instance - 1:30 for a HIM run split - achieving a 2min PR is actually quite a bit of an improvement. Going 5-6 sec faster every K may not sound that incredible, but IMO the difference of 4:15/k and 4:10k is pretty noticable.. Still - this is well within the realm of possibility. What is not within the realm of possibility is - as far as I'm concerned - going from a 4:45/pace to 4-4:15min/K for a HIM-run split. This just does not happen over night, no matter how good a day you had. One thing is going from 6:30min/K to 5:45 min/K - which in itself would be a huge improvement. However, gains will be more easily obtained the slower your starting-speed was. When approaching speeds at 4min/k and below for a HIM-split you are so close to the really pointy end of your own potential, I just dont believe it can happen from one month to another. I should note that I dont have any good grounds to establish JMs normal running ability (partly becaue all of her results are now being questioned), but for example se ran:

- 1:39 in Vancouver half where it seems she cut the bike. This is approx 4:40min/k.

- 3:01 for 2015 ITU Long Dist (30k run) - this is approx 6:00/k - allthough on the back of a longer bike than your normal HIM.

Based of this alone she would have to cook up one heck of an explanation for me to believe she ran 4:10/k on the back of a 120k bike in Weihai..

Sure - course-profiles would also affect this picture, but the unlikleyness of her run split in ITU 2014 is supported by comparing her run split to other racers in the various events - she chrushed it compered to everyone else in Weihai. Not so much the other events. Also - the run course in Weihai - where she has by far her fastes run-pace - seems to be quite hilly: http://www.triathlon.org/...un_Profile_Graph.jpg
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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As was in the other thread, if someone at a race challenges race results either at the race, or like on ST, they basically get attacked.

I know in a race I did a while back I looked at the race results and a guy beat me who had a 20 minute swim. I know everyone in my AG and no one
can swim a 20 minute swim. This was at the level of only 1 or 2 swam in the entire race. Harpers kid swam about this. So I go over and talk to the timer and I got nothing but crap. That I was
a poor sport. He is the best. I was shocked. Never had I had a timing company challenge me with clearly a result that was not possible. His bike time was fine,
and his run time was fine. I went to the USAT official to file a protest and he just did not want to do it. I even challenged the person on the podium
asking had he ever swam a 20 in an Olympic 1.5K before and he said yes.

I left with nothing but everyone supporting him saying he is the best and I was just a poor sport.

The next day magically his times were adjusted. They added 5 minutes to his swim. Took 5 minutes off his bike. No other person had
an issue with the timing system. Clearly he started in the wrong wave which was 5 minutes before. But the "system" covered for him.

I went back and forth with the USAT official and the end result from the USAT side was because they could not "prove" anything, they could do nothing.
Unless you have a timing mat at the start of the swim, I person can start in an early way and there is basically nothing one can do about it.

So I can clearly see why folks do not want to bring up issues they see with results. They are at the risk of being attacked for being the messenger.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Julie has a delusional friend: http://www.kristaguloien.net/...79e80cf2de902a762586

2018 Races:
Finland 70.3, Lahti, Finland, June 30th | Jonkoping 70.3, Jonkoping, Sweden, July 8th | Augusta 70.3,
September 23rd
| Waco 70.3, Waco, TX, October 28th | Cartagena 70.3, Cartagena, Colombia December 2nd

Gear: Dimond Bikes | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
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Ironic that the writer of that blog's tag line is "Sports do not build character. They reveal it!"
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
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It would be interesting to see if she has full race splits for IMC 2013. How long does sportstats keep that data?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
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oh man, that's tough to read. sad.

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
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Everything she wrote sounds reasonable on the surface. Once she digs a little deeper Krista will be disappointed.

The problem is it's not easy to get reliable, incontrovertible evidence. Anyone who comments on her post would be at risk of being a cyber bully with ulterior motives. Even on this thread, just pointing out past results has an individual's character and motives questioned.
Last edited by: gregf83: Aug 28, 15 5:23
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [msk] [ In reply to ]
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msk wrote:
It would be interesting to see if she has full race splits for IMC 2013. How long does sportstats keep that data?

IIRC she "lost" her chip for the run at that race too.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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Her argument that her 2013 time would have gotten her 2nd place in 2015 is really weak. I could argue the exact opposite following her logic (and that conclusion would be far closer to the truth probably). 2013 35-39 winner 10:01, 2015 35-39 winner 11:18. Tenth place (JM's place) 2013 35-39 10:56, tenth place 2015 35-39 12:08. So by my very flawed logic, disregarding the fact that there were different athletes at diff events (just like she is), the 2015 race was at least an hour slower, and that makes JM's time all the more unrealistic.

Add to that she lost her chip at more than one races and it's impossible to tell which times are real and which aren't. The cherry on top is of course the "why would she cheat to a 10th place".
Last edited by: snaaijert: Aug 28, 15 5:45
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
IIRC she "lost" her chip for the run at that race too.

Hugh

Ah... Photos show the chip must have gone missing in T2 in 2013 too
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [snaaijert] [ In reply to ]
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Not only different athletes (2013 was the 100 Kona slot year so it was very top heavy) but the weather conditions were way better in 2013. I raced Whistler both 2013 and 2014. 2013 was a dream compared to 2014 when it got blasting ass hot and sunny the last 40 miles of the bike ride.

2015 was just awful from what I've read. Cold and wet.

So comparing times from 2013 to 2015 is apples to oranges.

2018 Races:
Finland 70.3, Lahti, Finland, June 30th | Jonkoping 70.3, Jonkoping, Sweden, July 8th | Augusta 70.3,
September 23rd
| Waco 70.3, Waco, TX, October 28th | Cartagena 70.3, Cartagena, Colombia December 2nd

Gear: Dimond Bikes | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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gregf83 wrote:
Everything she wrote sounds reasonable on the surface. Once she digs a little deeper Krista will be disappointed.

The problem is it's not easy to get reliable, incontrovertible evidence. Anyone who comments on her post would be at risk of being a cyber bully with ulterior motives. Even on this thread, just pointing out past results has an individual's character and motives questioned.

I'm all for standing up for your friend but do it in a rational and responsible manner.

Her friend's blog post was neither. All she did was set her self up for ridicule. I have a feeling she will want to get back in her Delorean time machine and never submit that blog post before the day is over.

2018 Races:
Finland 70.3, Lahti, Finland, June 30th | Jonkoping 70.3, Jonkoping, Sweden, July 8th | Augusta 70.3,
September 23rd
| Waco 70.3, Waco, TX, October 28th | Cartagena 70.3, Cartagena, Colombia December 2nd

Gear: Dimond Bikes | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
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GMAN19030 wrote:
Julie has a delusional friend: http://www.kristaguloien.net/...79e80cf2de902a762586

Not just any friend...an Olympic Athlete friend.

https://www.miles4matt.run/
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
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In fairness, the blog was (I think) written prior to the Vancouver data coming out and prior to Julie's coach releasing a statement indicating that after looking at the data he was cutting ties. So there is that to take into account.

Clearly she has missed the key point regarding the impossible run pace. Either that or she has not actually seen the data and relied on someone providing some info but not all, which may indicate why she mentions minor points like sun angle (which I agree is pretty redundant considering everything else). Anyway, I see her one Olympian and raise her at least two of my own .... who actually run.

Regardless, I have messaged the lady in question and offered a friendly and open conversation to see if she can convince me that there was no foul play.

Julie has an exemplary record (previously) in the Squamish community. It's not difficult to understand why people are struggling to accept it.

Powered by - Wave Physiotherapy | PB+J Coaching
Last edited by: JayPeeWhy: Aug 28, 15 6:56
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [GrimOopNorth] [ In reply to ]
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GrimOopNorth wrote:
Pancks wrote:
Is it really that hard to ignore him?


Don't feed the troll.

The forum upgrade that's coming is going to have an "Ignore" Button, right Dan?

As for the whole "Body Is A Temple" thing? Well, many ancient deities often enjoyed offerings of Sweets and Intoxicants
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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You started a thread to publicly shame all people who have ever transgressed. Do you think that was reasonable and in line with you long rant about being a victim?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Jctriguy wrote:
You started a thread to publicly shame all people who have ever transgressed. Do you think that was reasonable and in line with you long rant about being a victim?

Please read the 3 comments in the post immediately above yours. I think they all apply.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
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New blog post http://www.kristaguloien.net/...77dc0cf24e84f75b03ef

Seems that she has gotten into her Delorean but has failed to start the car.

"I still stand by my belief (however foolish anyone might think it is) that it was not Julie's intention to cut the course." which race?

She also went on to say that "I will never regret standing up for a friend not matter what information anyone uncovers" and there for me is her delusion. As a friend It sounds great but in reality there are things humans do that no one in their right mind would condone, let alone stand for in defense of.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [MukMuk] [ In reply to ]
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I don't blame her for sticking up for her friend. I think it is a natural reaction to trust your friends word, especially when JM came out with a public statement and this friend did not look at all the facts for herself like others have.

I think the 2015 Whistler facts have sunk in, but the 2013 Whistler, 2014 Vancouver half, and 2014 ITU worlds facts have not set been reviewed by her yet. Along with the 2015 worlds performance where it seems like course cutting was impossible.

I'm trying to imagine how I would react if some of my most successful friends were being accused like this. I think I would react similar, but as always...you should really think before you post something online and take a hard stance.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [MukMuk] [ In reply to ]
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I do not think calling her delusional is going to get us any further in the discussions on how we can make this right. This will just get the thread yanked yet again. Let's keep if factual and as accurate as possible.


AERO & LIGHT is RIGHT

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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [MukMuk] [ In reply to ]
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"She also went on to say that "I will never regret standing up for a friend not matter what information anyone uncovers" and there for me is her delusion. As a friend It sounds great but in reality there are things humans do that no one in their right mind would condone, let alone stand for in defense of.[/quote]"

Can we keep this into perspective? This is a sport, a hobby. She didn't murder anyone. If one of my best friends made an allegedly poor choice, a life mistake, i wouldn't condemn them for it. I would be a supportive friend regardless of the denial or acceptance. That's what friends do. I don't understand how you wouldn't be supportive. Everyone makes mistakes and poor decisions.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [MukMuk] [ In reply to ]
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i must agree with what others have written. friends of mine have done some pretty unpalatable things. cheated on their spouses. were dopers. even cut courses. and other equally unpalatable stuff, or worse.

they're all still my friends, and i will stick up for them when they are accused of being entirely bad because they have one particular failing, weakness, or when a bad angel sits on one shoulder.

it is easy to hold more than one idea in your head about the same person. you just have to open yourself up to the realization that people can be very good, very honorable, very giving, yet have one or more dark, weak failings. in fact, ask yourself if that's you. because it's me.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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While I would probably agree that the previous thread had exceeded its usefulness and deserved to be locked, I seriously question deleting the thread entirely. Sure, I wouldn't want my kids to read that about me, but if I didn't want my kids to find out I was a thief, I wouldn't steal. More importantly, though, it sets a new precedent. To my knowledge, similar threads have been locked (or not), but not deleted. I'm thinking specifically about Finman and T3. What is different in this case that warrants some sort of different treatment? That she seems otherwise honorable? That she has young children? Those seem like arbitrary criteria.

I'd appreciate some more insight as to why the thread was deleted rather than locked, because it really feels like arbitrary censorship.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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deh20 wrote:
While I would probably agree that the previous thread had exceeded its usefulness and deserved to be locked, I seriously question deleting the thread entirely. Sure, I wouldn't want my kids to read that about me, but if I didn't want my kids to find out I was a thief, I wouldn't steal. More importantly, though, it sets a new precedent. To my knowledge, similar threads have been locked (or not), but not deleted. I'm thinking specifically about Finman and T3. What is different in this case that warrants some sort of different treatment? That she seems otherwise honorable? That she has young children? Those seem like arbitrary criteria.

I'd appreciate some more insight as to why the thread was deleted rather than locked, because it really feels like arbitrary censorship.

I saw something on facebook that was clipped from the thread before it was archived. It served little purpose beyond poking fun at the accused. I believe that's the sort of thing that Dan was talking about when he said it had devolved into little more than entertainment. I've seen threads here and on BT where things got so muddy that the task of editing individual posts and deleting some others to make it acceptable were so great that the moderators decided to remove the entire thread. I suspect that may have been the case here.

____________________________________________
Don Larkin
http://steelcityendurance.com/
http://www.reachmultisport.com/
USAT Lvl1 Coach, NSCA-CPT, TRX Qualified (Standard & Sports Medicine)
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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"I'd appreciate some more insight as to why the thread was deleted rather than locked, because it really feels like arbitrary censorship."

first, it's not censorship, it's moderation. second, it's not arbitrary. arbitrary means i take every 12th post, and every 15th thread, and delete it. third, it's not deleted. it's hidden. sometimes, even after 16 years, i still am unsure what is the wisest course of action. sometimes i don't see it from all relevant sides, and if i need time to make a wise decision i place a thread, or a front page article, in abeyance, reasoning that there is no huge harm done if a thread is gone from view temporarily.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
As was in the other thread, if someone at a race challenges race results either at the race, or like on ST, they basically get attacked. I know in a race I did a while back I looked at the race results and a guy beat me who had a 20 minute swim... So I go over and talk to the timer and I got nothing but crap... The next day magically his times were adjusted. They added 5 minutes to his swim. Took 5 minutes off his bike. Clearly he started in the wrong wave which was 5 minutes before. But the "system" covered for him... So I can clearly see why folks do not want to bring up issues they see with results. They are at the risk of being attacked for being the messenger.
That is brutal. For me it would be a lot more embarrassing to let a bogus result stand than to have somebody point out a bogus result that I missed. So please feel free to let me know if you see anything weird at a race that I'm timing. I enjoy inquiries like that - it's a nice change from "WHERE IS MY HUSBAND I THOUGHT HE MIGHT HAVE FINISHED BY NOW I DON'T KNOW HIS NUMBER CAN YOU LOOK HIM UP?" Not sure how a bike split changes when a start wave is corrected. If he started at 8:00 am and finished at 8:25 and was in the system as starting at 8:05, it explains the 20:00 swim at first, corrected to 25:00. That stuff happens all the time. But if he finished the bike at 9:30, he's always going to have a bike time of 1:05 (minus transition). Finish the race at 10:15 and he always has a 45-minute run, but his final time goes from 2:10 to 2:15 when they correct the start time. The only times that should change with the wave correction are swim and overall.

Sylvan Smyth | http://www.sportstats.us | sylvan@sportstats.us | Starvas
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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I agree that the thread should have not been "hidden-deleted" as well but it is Dan's sandbox. He does have the arbitrary authority to ban, block, hide, delete or do as he sees fit with his forum. I don't like it but it's the rules. Is there anything to be gleaned from the hidden post, I don't know, there was a lot of anonymous attacking on a personal level but here was also some good rational discussion. It appears the bullys got the sandbox closed down.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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What I intended by arbitrary was that I saw no difference between the other cheater threads and this one, so deletion of this thread and not the others appears arbitrary to the forum participant.

Your forum, your rules, but when people invest their energy in debate and discussion, it's frustrating to see that work disappear. Hopefully it is temporary. More importantly, hopefully there was nothing that truly crossed the line after the last update I saw.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
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I find it laughable that you are accusing someone of not disclosing info that a lot of us saw, yet you find it "ok" to just be an absolute ass about it. Before you go pointing your finger at someone else, please recognize you're being an ass while doing it.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ttmonkey] [ In reply to ]
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"it is Dan's sandbox"

no. it is your sandbox. i moderate it. if this was a government-owned enterprise you all would still demand moderators. you'd elect them. or you'd elect a CEO to appoint them. either way, you'd want them. that moderator is going to make decisions that are variously popular and unpopular, depending on the person.

the guidelines here are also generally not my rules, but yours. in the classifieds, in the lavender room, i ask the folks who spend their time there what they want. they tell me and that's what they get.




Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sylvan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sylvan wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
As was in the other thread, if someone at a race challenges race results either at the race, or like on ST, they basically get attacked. I know in a race I did a while back I looked at the race results and a guy beat me who had a 20 minute swim... So I go over and talk to the timer and I got nothing but crap... The next day magically his times were adjusted. They added 5 minutes to his swim. Took 5 minutes off his bike. Clearly he started in the wrong wave which was 5 minutes before. But the "system" covered for him... So I can clearly see why folks do not want to bring up issues they see with results. They are at the risk of being attacked for being the messenger.
That is brutal. For me it would be a lot more embarrassing to let a bogus result stand than to have somebody point out a bogus result that I missed. So please feel free to let me know if you see anything weird at a race that I'm timing. I enjoy inquiries like that - it's a nice change from "WHERE IS MY HUSBAND I THOUGHT HE MIGHT HAVE FINISHED BY NOW I DON'T KNOW HIS NUMBER CAN YOU LOOK HIM UP?" Not sure how a bike split changes when a start wave is corrected. If he started at 8:00 am and finished at 8:25 and was in the system as starting at 8:05, it explains the 20:00 swim at first, corrected to 25:00. That stuff happens all the time. But if he finished the bike at 9:30, he's always going to have a bike time of 1:05 (minus transition). Finish the race at 10:15 and he always has a 45-minute run, but his final time goes from 2:10 to 2:15 when they correct the start time. The only times that should change with the wave correction are swim and overall.

Yep, we are both on the same page. His bike and run were correct. But as I said, when I asked the timer, he just gave me a bad time like the guy was a stud and I had no idea what I was talking about.
Now, since he started early , seems this is a DQ. But the next day add 5 minutes, exactly, to the swim, take 5 minutes off the bike, which cant be wrong, and leave the final time the same, ....
At least I challenged him to his face. Others races know exactly what happened. Still interesting that I got made out to be the bad guy for calling out this person for not doing the race correctly.
It did impact rankings, but, ...

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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"I saw no difference between the other cheater threads and this one"

you ought to look at it from the moderator's POV. i promise you, those are the mostly ardently watched threads. i am pretty activist about balancing the need and right to discuss what happened and compare notes, with the sensitivity required to know when the rush to get at it outpaces the need to exercise patience and discretion. most of you get it. some of you don't.

i hear you loud and clear on the issue of investment in a discussion. this is why, when some of you come and ask to have your entire account and posting history deleted i pretty much always decline. it's because your posts are part of the fabric of a discussion and without them the rest of the discussion doesn't make sense.

it is rare that i delete threads. in fact this forum has, if anything, a reputation for being as liberal as possible. we're not as liberal as letsrun, but how many people have come here from beginnertri because the moderation was considered over-tight in that forum?



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [spankybc] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Can we keep this into perspective? This is a sport, a hobby. She didn't murder anyone. If one of my best friends made an allegedly poor choice, a life mistake, i wouldn't condemn them for it. I would be a supportive friend regardless of the denial or acceptance. That's what friends do. I don't understand how you wouldn't be supportive. Everyone makes mistakes and poor decisions.


The links in the 2nd post on this thread are great analysis. But this friend will probably continue to disbelieve until someone covertly follows Julie with a GoPro for an entire race.
Last edited by: spudone: Aug 28, 15 12:08
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Moderation is locking the thread, "hiding-deleting" is disciplining. Showing not only that you have the power to do it but admonishing the contributors that they aren't playing nice.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ttmonkey] [ In reply to ]
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"Moderation is locking the thread, "hiding-deleting" is disciplining. Showing not only that you have the power to do it but admonishing the contributors that they aren't playing nice."

okay, except at the very moment that thread went away, this one was born, for the continuation of the discussion. i told none of you you couldn't discuss this topic. the people online at the time that thread was closed, and the last several posts, convinced me that the discussion was turning into entertainment at the expense of julie miller, and her friends and her family and everyone who was dealing with the recent revelations.

as well as i can tell all the proof, the data, the charts, the former and current DQs, what might be the future DQs, there here on this thread or will be here as additional facts come to light. i understand that you feel that the intervention was overly tight and restrictive. a large number of posts, PMs and private emails suggest otherwise. here is one i got this morning:

"
I want to thank you for allowing the original Julie Miller Thread to run as long as it did. It did indeed serve its purpose and for it to continue served only to amuse people that were looking to hate but there still needs to be a conclusion to her other results as there are eye witnesses that are afraid to come out."

others wish, i'm sure, that thread would have been closed down more quickly.

welcome to democracy. welcome to the internet. welcome to the differences of opinion on how things ought to be done when the sample size of stakeholders grows.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i must agree with what others have written. friends of mine have done some pretty unpalatable things. cheated on their spouses. were dopers. even cut courses. and other equally unpalatable stuff, or worse.

they're all still my friends, and i will stick up for them when they are accused of being entirely bad because they have one particular failing, weakness, or when a bad angel sits on one shoulder.

it is easy to hold more than one idea in your head about the same person. you just have to open yourself up to the realization that people can be very good, very honorable, very giving, yet have one or more dark, weak failings. in fact, ask yourself if that's you. because it's me.

Just to make myself clear...To Dan and others, I agree. I have have the same friends and in the eyes of many of my own friends I have done some truly hurtful things (I have) and they are still with me (thankfully). My mistake was reading her statement that she would "stand by a friend no matter what information anyone uncovers" while I am at work and biased by this I thought of the worst case scenario (you really don't want to know). I'm sure she wrote it in that of her own context, which is probably one of sports/hobbies and I'm guessing, a more "sheltered" life and again I agree, what she has done it is not the end of the world and it is not something that needs nonconstructive shaming/bullying.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
At least I challenged him to his face. Others races know exactly what happened. Still interesting that I got made out to be the bad guy for calling out this person for not doing the race correctly.


I had a similar experience. Someone posted a time that was simply too good to be true. I stated it and everyone, people who didn't know the guy, jumped down my throat and said I was wrong.

I wasn't wrong. His time was wrong because he started in 1 swim wave early. Regardless, he still won the overall but it was funny how pointing out the obvious makes you a bad guy.

And note... I never even said he cheated; all I said was, "there is something wrong there. That time is not possible."
Last edited by: BrentwoodTriGuy: Aug 28, 15 12:21
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Is motivate an acceptable topic to discuss? I personally don't think KQ'ing or winning for the sake of winning was the goal for cutting the course. I think she was a top performer in the past which earned her an admirable following. And once your performance starts to fade, she probably didn't want to disappoint all of those who held her in such high esteem, so she cut the course, not to win for herself, but to win to not disappoint everyone who "expected" her to win.

In my opinion, that's a pretty likely motive. The shame of disappointing those who care so much about you would be a pretty rough thing to deal with. I'll have a similar situation in a few weeks in Tahoe. My parents are driving 2000 miles to watch me race, and as much as I want to win, I don't want to disappoint them. Obviously I'm not going to cheat to do it, and whatever happens that day happens, but I know I'll be thinking about them when shit gets real during the marathon.

Not to derail, but I think there's a psychological side to racing that a lot of people don't talk about. Physically, racing is very demanding, but it's also equally psychologically demanding as well.
Last edited by: krez: Aug 28, 15 12:29
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [krez] [ In reply to ]
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thank you for asking. i would prefer we didn't talk about this yet. this opens up all manner of amateur diagnoses, and some are going to be silly and hurtful. what i hope is that one day soon we'll know more. i think that's more likely if we just exercise a little patience and see if it doesn't happen on its own. if it does, and when we know more, then by all means you all can have at it.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
the people online at the time that thread was closed, and the last several posts, convinced me that the discussion was turning into entertainment at the expense of julie miller, and her friends and her family and everyone who was dealing with the recent revelations.


This is why it is "your" sandbox. I actually don't think the intervention was overly tight or restrictive, these are the rules we operate with as contributors. We don't pay for hosting or content, this is your site and you are pretty liberal in allowing discussion up to a point. That point was obviously surpassed by a contribution but without knowing what the specific content was that got the thread hidden, it maybe only a matter of time before this thread suffers a similar fate. It seems incongruous and disingenuous when other threads of similar character are treated differently.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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deh20 wrote:
While I would probably agree that the previous thread had exceeded its usefulness and deserved to be locked, I seriously question deleting the thread entirely. Sure, I wouldn't want my kids to read that about me, but if I didn't want my kids to find out I was a thief, I wouldn't steal. More importantly, though, it sets a new precedent. To my knowledge, similar threads have been locked (or not), but not deleted. I'm thinking specifically about Finman and T3. What is different in this case that warrants some sort of different treatment? That she seems otherwise honorable? That she has young children? Those seem like arbitrary criteria.

I'd appreciate some more insight as to why the thread was deleted rather than locked, because it really feels like arbitrary censorship.

Dan, I tend to agree with deh20...lock it, but don't delete it. Locking it leaves a record of how the community reacted to the scenario, both the good and bad sides of "us" collectively. I don't feel that it is fair to any of those who have contributed our time to any thread to delete threads in entirety. Some massively objectionable posts have been and should be deleted, but entire threads that are an overall contribution by community members would be better left up. Locked yes, Deleted, no. I am pretty sure that the thread technically is not "deleted" but the 1's and "0's" are still on your servers, but rather you/moderators have the option of making it no longer visible or accessible. If that is the case, I would urge you to make it visible but lock it
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
it seems as if the previous thread on this topic has exhausted its purpose. accordingly, from here on in i'd prefer that you limit your posts to anything that you want to say regarding the factual elements of this particular case. catching someone who has cut a course, yes, i'm all for that. these discussions serve a purpose, as we ought to have the expectation of fair sport and uncovering cases where contestants do not finish the prescribed course, whether inadvertently or on purpose, is helpful. this is where my interest in these threads starts and stops.

Well it seems that we Canadians have succeeded in giving the sporting world the original 100m doping convict (Ben Johnson) and now the original masters course cutting Mdot age group KQ champion....whoever said that Canadians were nice. Now carry on with this thread and don't trust any of those stupid doping cheating course cutting Canadians. Man, I am going to have to find an island in the South Pacific near the international date line and take out citizenship there. We're on a roll up here in Canada! Thankfully we have sportstats to keep everyone honest around here in the course cutting front.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ttmonkey] [ In reply to ]
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"This is why it is "your" sandbox."

fine. just as long as we all agree that every sandbox, whether private or public, will have a governor, moderator, policeman, and that person's sense of appropriateness will rule until you all replace him with someone else. so, you can complain that it's my sandbox, but you will always FREELY CHOOSE to have a sandbox czar act as a referee. the NFL is roger goodell's sandbox. robert kraft disagrees mightily with decisions goodell made. robert kraft is goodell's employer. kraft freely chose to place goodell in charge of the sandbox. if kraft could oust goodell from his post, he would simply replace him with another sandbox czar, and every owner would willfully submit to the best wisdom of the NFL sandbox czar. many will think the sandbox czar unfair. arbitrary. unwise. stupid. corrupt. but they'll always have a sandbox czar.

so when you say it's my sandbox, you will always have a sandbox czar, who makes final decisions, and it will always be your preference to have one whether you realize it or not.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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+1 The baby was thrown out with the bathwater when the thread disappeared. I would prefer to see it displayed and locked following deleting that which is unacceptable.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Runout] [ In reply to ]
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Given that there are now public accusations of cyber-bulling, no doubt related, in part, to the pulled thread, I think hiding it (temporarily or permanently) was the correct action to take. There have been a couple of very high-profile cases in Canada related to cyber-bulling and teenagers. While this isn't at all of the same magnitude, I would argue that shutting down certain topics of conversations and hiding the other discussion is the right things to do at this time.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Runout] [ In reply to ]
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Runout wrote:
+1 The baby was thrown out with the bathwater when the thread disappeared. I would prefer to see it displayed and locked following deleting that which is unacceptable.

+2

Would welcome removal (moderation?:)) of the mob amusemt from posts 250 and out, but the discussion before that was fine, imo.

Also - slowman mentioned something about the coaches post as reason to hide the thread. If the thread stays hidden I'd like to hear a bit more detail on why the coach's post should get buried (I'd get it if there was suspicion that it was not the actual coach coming forward though..)
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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lovegoat wrote:
Runout wrote:
+1 The baby was thrown out with the bathwater when the thread disappeared. I would prefer to see it displayed and locked following deleting that which is unacceptable.

+2

Would welcome removal (moderation?:)) of the mob amusemt from posts 250 and out, but the discussion before that was fine, imo.

Also - slowman mentioned something about the coaches post as reason to hide the thread. If the thread stays hidden I'd like to hear a bit more detail on why the coach's post should get buried (I'd get it if there was suspicion that it was not the actual coach coming forward though..)

Quite honestly I still don't quite understand how her coach didn't pick up on any red flags. I have been coached, and my spouse is a couch. Unless you have so many athletes you're coaching that you are not able to dedicate the time and effort to analyzing any of their training and race results, then I don't see how some of JM's performances could go without suspicion. I understand that she didn't post training files, but still... Some of her performances involved out-biking or out-running many of the pro men and women. How does that pass even the mildest sniff test? Further, these were performances at high profile races, not local sprints, where one would expect a higher level of post-race analysis.

I can give the coach the benefit of the doubt that he genuinely didn't pick up on any of the anomalies, but that, to me, suggests he didn't spend much time discussing her racing goals or looking at her performances and discussing them with her afterwards. Maybe it was a combination of them: some suspicions existed, but we're not followed up on, and JM was just one of a very many athletes being coached?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
At least I challenged him to his face. Others races know exactly what happened. Still interesting that I got made out to be the bad guy for calling out this person for not doing the race correctly.


I had a similar experience. Someone posted a time that was simply too good to be true. I stated it and everyone, people who didn't know the guy, jumped down my throat and said I was wrong.

I wasn't wrong. His time was wrong because he started in 1 swim wave early. Regardless, he still won the overall but it was funny how pointing out the obvious makes you a bad guy.

And note... I never even said he cheated; all I said was, "there is something wrong there. That time is not possible."

Agreed. This is why I smile when some ask posters why they did not bring the concerns up to the RD, etc.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [banana] [ In reply to ]
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banana wrote:
Given that there are now public accusations of cyber-bulling, no doubt related, in part, to the pulled thread, I think hiding it (temporarily or permanently) was the correct action to take. There have been a couple of very high-profile cases in Canada related to cyber-bulling and teenagers. While this isn't at all of the same magnitude, I would argue that shutting down certain topics of conversations and hiding the other discussion is the right things to do at this time.

Well,I don't think you can draw any link between thread in question and cyber bullying. We might think there is a link and there might be a link but first you have to prove something factually as slowman has asked on numerous fronts in the past. If there is bad behaviour from people in cyberspace towards the course cutter, that is disappointing. I think it is entirely OK to discuss her actions in public related to racing and course cutting. The other character assassinations are not needed and as slowman said, there can be parts of the persons persona that imperfect and perhaps repugnant while others that may even be admirable (I don't know the course cutter in any way, but being a human like the rest of us, I suspect there are positive aspects of her personality outside racing that may even be awesome, while her course cutting is going to be vilified by the community). I don't think she deserves a pass on the vilification of her course cutting and having the original thread pulled because she may have some positive aspects of her personality. This being a tri forum, we're focused on her behaviour in triathlon and hopefully the original thread can be locked and made publicly viewable once slowman has pulled a few non triathlon related character assassination posts.

As others said, no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i must agree with what others have written. friends of mine have done some pretty unpalatable things. cheated on their spouses. were dopers. even cut courses. and other equally unpalatable stuff, or worse.

they're all still my friends, and i will stick up for them when they are accused of being entirely bad because they have one particular failing, weakness, or when a bad angel sits on one shoulder.

it is easy to hold more than one idea in your head about the same person. you just have to open yourself up to the realization that people can be very good, very honorable, very giving, yet have one or more dark, weak failings. in fact, ask yourself if that's you. because it's me.

I agree people can make bad choices, make mistakes, hurt others, lie, steal, cheat etc. And we still love and support our friends. However, we do not condone, turn our backs and ignore the indiscretion, pretend it did not happen, and even REWARD them.
I am sure people, even ST posters are willing to forgive. But she has to admit that she cheated. She lied. She stole from her fellow athletes. She took trips that she didn't deserve. Took awards she didn't deserve and took them from others. Deceived her supporters. Shall I go on?
Last edited by: Ty: Aug 28, 15 14:18
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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"If the thread stays hidden I'd like to hear a bit more detail on why the coach's post should get buried"

i'm happy hosting the coach's post. if anybody's got it handy, post it. if not i'll dig it out and post it here.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Ossenbrink wrote:
Hi everyone,
Thanks for the feedback, criticism and positive words regarding my coaching and coaching ethics.
As you would expect, I have cut my ties from Julie Miller. A lot of you have put in a lot of amazing work researching her performances and have found questionable results or even evidence that she did not follow the rules and cut the course. I don't know what it takes for a person to do something like this - there are dopers and there are drafters and course cutters - all of these are serious rule infractions

I agree with some you that I should have researched or analyzed her results after some races more in detail but I did not and this was my mistake! I coached Julie based on her feedback. She did not use Garmin devices or a Powermeter or even a bike computer or downloadable watch. I relied purely on her feedback through TrainingPeaks which was only provided to 10% with some HR numbers. Never was there a any doubt brought up to me from others that she might hav cut courses short or cheated in other ways leading up to this.
I tolerate ZERO cheating with my athletes and as I said before it is possible that I could have caught this earlier with paying better attention - my fault but as a coach I'm not out there to question every race result athletes produce. Nobody expects this from people. I'm NOT responsible for any athletes action and these actions she produced are out of my control.

I have been talking to Dan Empfield (slowman) and Jimmy Riccitello (Head IM official) trying to assist as much as I can.

I’m open to discuss this further. Do it directly, you can contact me via the message board and I will exchange email or a phone after to discuss.

Thanks,
Bjoern
Last edited by: Uncle Phil: Aug 28, 15 14:26
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Ty] [ In reply to ]
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Lance admitted his mistakes but many sure do not seem to be willing to let it go.

I think many would have considered doing exactly what Lance did if they were in his shoes.

I am still a Lance supporter. I can forgive.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Ty] [ In reply to ]
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to you, and to dev, there is a school of thought that forgiveness can be extended, but it's not granted unless it's accepted. everyone to whom i have spoken feels this way about this situation. even her supporters to whom i've spoken are supporters rather than abettors. they support her, and maintain their confidence in her, but don't absolve the acts.

i have not spoken to anyone who thinks she ought to be given a pass, absent her accepting the forgiveness and that means acknowledging the need for it. nobody wants to be forgiven for an act that he or she does not acknowledge requires forgiveness. that's the stand-off. last i knew, that's where we're at. i just don't know that 100 more posts reiterating this serves the purpose.

i have 3 dogs, and there's a 12-foot long, 4" diameter piece of PVC pipe on the property where we walk in the morning. when there's a varmint in that pipe, a dog gets on each end of the pipe and barks repeatedly, reasoning i guess that enough barking will convince the varmint to come out and get eaten. that tactic never works. it's cathartic for the dogs, i guess, but it never coaxes the varmint out. in fact, it probably convinces the varmint to stay put.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
to you, and to dev, there is a school of thought that forgiveness can be extended, but it's not granted unless it's accepted. everyone to whom i have spoken feels this way about this situation. even her supporters to whom i've spoken are supporters rather than abettors. they support her, and maintain their confidence in her, but don't absolve the acts.

i have not spoken to anyone who thinks she ought to be given a pass, absent her accepting the forgiveness and that means acknowledging the need for it. nobody wants to be forgiven for an act that he or she does not acknowledge requires forgiveness. that's the stand-off. last i knew, that's where we're at. i just don't know that 100 more posts reiterating this serves the purpose.

i have 3 dogs, and there's a 12-foot long, 4" diameter piece of PVC pipe on the property where we walk in the morning. when there's a varmint in that pipe, a dog gets on each end of the pipe and barks repeatedly, reasoning i guess that enough barking will convince the varmint to come out and get eaten. that tactic never works. it's cathartic for the dogs, i guess, but it never coaxes the varmint out. in fact, it probably convinces the varmint to stay put.

Dan, given that I don't know the course cutter athlete, I don't really care if she admits to it or not.

What I care is that what was taken from others is restored (podium placements, Kona slots etc) and that measures are put in place so that neither Julie Miller nor anyone in our community can easily circumvent the system. The most important thing is that courses are properly designed and timing wires put in place for early alert of course cutting (intentional or unintentional makes no diff from a pure results angle).

I don't care if she repents or not, because unlike a pro athlete who I might have a vested interest in following, I have no vested interest in this athlete. I only care that she nor others have future chances to steal podiums, Kona slots or placements that rightfully were earned by others.

I sat down with Marc Roy CEO of sportstats and he showed me the complex analytics they run on the data to catch the 5-10 athletes at every race that either try to intentionally or non intentionally cut corners. You don't hear about all these folks who get DQ'd. Sportstats on the night of IM Whislter, alerted WTC to the course cutting and recommended a DQ. Marc was timing at IMLP and was also helping his team remotely who were in BC. They check all the top 40 age group finishers who might be in line for a KQ immediately the night before rolldown and can see where entire segments are being cut, or where there are sudden "speed ups" (for example, an athlete could get a lift in a car, but if that athletes pace on a segment was out of line with the median change in pace and their own pace, it shows up rather glaringly). They go through a fairly complex analysis of Mdot race results, but they can only work with race course set up and where timing wires are put in place or not. They make recommendations on placements of wires etc to ensure there is no course cutting, but RD's due to budgets may or may not pay for that.

I have gone to way too many races (including IM Branded) where there is no timing wire at the turnarounds on the bike or run, or in the case of Whistler, no return to land after swim loop 1 for chip "in" before swim loop 2. These are fundamentally flawed problems in course design. Part of the big value that WTC holds is the keys to Kona, but if they can't put on a fair competition for those who strive to get access to the elusive KQ club, then they are de valuing their own Goose that is laying the golden eggs. After a while the eggs won't look so golden, when you have course cutters, drafters and dopers rewarded (or as a minimum no means of catching them in action).
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I sat down with Marc Roy CEO of sportstats and he showed me the complex analytics they run on the data to catch the 5-10 athletes at every race that either try to intentionally or non intentionally cut corners. You don't hear about all these folks who get DQ'd. Sportstats on the night of IM Whislter, alerted WTC to the course cutting and recommended a DQ. Marc was timing at IMLP and was also helping his team remotely who were in BC. They check all the top 40 age group finishers who might be in line for a KQ immediately the night before rolldown and can see where entire segments are being cut, or where there are sudden "speed ups" (for example, an athlete could get a lift in a car, but if that athletes pace on a segment was out of line with the median change in pace and their own pace, it shows up rather glaringly). They go through a fairly complex analysis of Mdot race results, but they can only work with race course set up and where timing wires are put in place or not. They make recommendations on placements of wires etc to ensure there is no course cutting, but RD's due to budgets may or may not pay for that.
Thanks for sharing this with us! I'm curious why WTC choose not to DQ as recommended by Sportstats initially and only DQ'd now? I'm like you Paul in that I personally don't care if she admits to it, but I will be disappointed if WTC or Canada's triathlon governing body doesn't come down with at least a two year suspension. It is quite obvious that she has cut courses at multiple races and is a habitual cheater.


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev, the technology is there is catch most, if not all, folks that do not do the full swim correctly, the full bike correctly, or the full run correctly.

I have been to a number of world events where there was no technology used on a multi lap bike or run course. There ended up being a number of
issues with folks doing only 1 lap or cutting the course. Since these races had not installed timing locations such that this was impossible to not catch,
things were a real mess. I have seen them in my AG. I have seen them impact other racers at these world events. For what we all pay, to have
these level of races "cut the corners" to save a few dollars is, well, ....

So, any race that wants to do it right

Needs to have a timing mat at the beginning of the swim. And if a multi lap, we need to come out of the water and go across another timing mat.

I really like the post about a timing chip that is put on the bike helmet so there can be timing mats at the the furthest part of the bike course.

Any run course, needs to have mats at the furthest point on the run. And depending on configuration, multiple mats.

So easy to do and it really dose not cost that much compared to us athletes having to "prove" to the RD that someones races results are in question.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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"What I care is that what was taken from others is restored (podium placements, Kona slots etc) and that measures are put in place so that neither Julie Miller nor anyone in our community can easily circumvent the system."

so, i called triathlon canada about this. you have this athlete. do you have an interest in what's going on? either helping her be vindicated, or if she's guilty helping inoculate future competitors against the specter of course cutting?

at first, it took me one entire conversation just to convince the media liaison person that, yes, IM Canada was sanctioned by the NF. but i got a follow up email:

"please note that while the course was sanctioned by Triathlon BC, the race competition rules for the event are enforced and sanctioned by World Triathlon Corporation (WTC) and its franchisees, and therefore any participant infringement and/or appeal will be a matter for WTC. As noted previously, I therefore suggest you direct your queries to the WTC organisation or Ironman Canada for further comment and information."

so, the idea that you're going to get triathlon canada to take ANY interest AT ALL in anything that includes participation in an ironman race must be considered against the paragraph quoted above.

so, somebody cuts a course, and let's leave ms. miller out of it. somebody cuts a course. an american man. an australian woman. just, in general. let us assume that the course cutting was found to be deliberate. you might determine this because of multiple factors (no chip + course cut), or multiple races where this occurred, or eyewitnesses. i won't recommend what constitutes proof, just, let's assume that you're pretty confident there's proof of the intention to cut the course.

in which bucket to you throw this infraction? is intentional course cutting a single-race-specific violation, like littering? or a suspension-from-racing violation?

most competitors think it's a suspension-type violation, but most race organizations and federations do not treat it with the same ardency.

i'm not going to opine right now on where we ought to be on this; what we ought to do, as a sport. i don't know. i just know there's a gulf between what athletes probably want and what federations are prepared to do. they have no problem suspending you for a year if you use your buddies ID in a race, but how many of these other suspensions occur?



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Aug 28, 15 15:34
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Ty] [ In reply to ]
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ty, i just removed your latest post. we get it. there is nothing you wrote that we don't all already know. this is like a few good men where demi moore says, "i object." overruled. "i strenuously object."

don't think our condemnation is not understood and appreciated. your strenuous condemnation is unnecessary.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
ty, i just removed your latest post. we get it. there is nothing you wrote that we don't all already know. this is like a few good men where demi moore says, "i object." overruled. "i strenuously object."

don't think our condemnation is not understood and appreciated. your strenuous condemnation is unnecessary.

But Dan - he strenuously objected.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Typically these types of people rarely demonstrate any form of contriteness and will not issue an apology even when they are faced with irrefutable evidence that they cheated. Australia's answer to Jane Miller cheated in a very similar pattern to JM. Cutting bike/run courses and starting in different waves so was ending up with extraordinary splits. I think one IM he would have had to cover 7kms in 22 mins, so averaging just over 3 min/km (not bad for an overweight 44 year old).. when provided with this information (plus a ton of other data) during his tribunal with Triathlon Western Australia he continued to deny he had cheated. Very bizarre.. I think he would have garnered a bit more sympathy and people would have been a bit more forgiving if he'd stuck his hand up and admitted he cheated - sometimes people go through tough times in their lives and do stupid things - but to continue to lie...
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
ty, i just removed your latest post. we get it. there is nothing you wrote that we don't all already know. this is like a few good men where demi moore says, "i object." overruled. "i strenuously object."

don't think our condemnation is not understood and appreciated. your strenuous condemnation is unnecessary.

Hey got it. No hard feelings. I will in the future try to control my passionate objection. And redundancy.

Oh and I always did love that movie. And Demi with those thick black glasses and goofball demeanor.
Last edited by: Ty: Aug 28, 15 15:59
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:

Typically these types of people rarely demonstrate any form of contriteness and will not issue an apology even when they are faced with irrefutable evidence that they cheated. Australia's answer to Jane Miller cheated in a very similar pattern to JM. Cutting bike/run courses and starting in different waves so was ending up with extraordinary splits. I think one IM he would have had to cover 7kms in 22 mins, so averaging just over 3 min/km (not bad for an overweight 44 year old).. when provided with this information (plus a ton of other data) during his tribunal with Triathlon Western Australia he continued to deny he had cheated. Very bizarre.. I think he would have garnered a bit more sympathy and people would have been a bit more forgiving if he'd stuck his hand up and admitted he cheated - sometimes people go through tough times in their lives and do stupid things - but to continue to lie...

This is why I think that whether or not she acknowledges her behavior is irrelevant to the triathlon community as a whole. What's important is that she is punished for her actions and that those whom she harmed are made, at least to the extent available, whole. That said, she probably should apologize to the ladies she harmed. That would be the decent thing to do.




My triathlon training blog
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Ty] [ In reply to ]
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no harm, no foul.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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The best thing about my close friends is when one of us "phuck up" regardless of what it may have been, we will hug the moron, and then slap them in the head and say "what the hell were you thinking"...pressure doesn't build character, it reveals it...

Pots4

(I have phucked up plenty in 49 yrs and have a bruise on the side of my head to prove it)
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"it is Dan's sandbox"

no. it is your sandbox. i moderate it. if this was a government-owned enterprise you all would still demand moderators. you'd elect them. or you'd elect a CEO to appoint them. either way, you'd want them. that moderator is going to make decisions that are variously popular and unpopular, depending on the person.

the guidelines here are also generally not my rules, but yours. in the classifieds, in the lavender room, i ask the folks who spend their time there what they want. they tell me and that's what they get.
but i'm the one who has to filter the crap out when some pussy* sh!ts in it

FTFY
* not a reference the person Dan was responding to.
Last edited by: sharkbait_au: Aug 28, 15 18:25
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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I want to go back to Tonythetriguy's question - about further repercussions from the WTC or other authority. I'm not talking about the person here exactly, but the situation that presents itself: say for example we have a repeat cheater. say the athlete has multiple DQ's at WTC events for cutting courses. When and how would they assign a penalty/ban for multiple infractions (or would they)??
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
to you, and to dev, there is a school of thought that forgiveness can be extended, but it's not granted unless it's accepted. everyone to whom i have spoken feels this way about this situation. even her supporters to whom i've spoken are supporters rather than abettors. they support her, and maintain their confidence in her, but don't absolve the acts.

i have not spoken to anyone who thinks she ought to be given a pass, absent her accepting the forgiveness and that means acknowledging the need for it. nobody wants to be forgiven for an act that he or she does not acknowledge requires forgiveness. that's the stand-off. last i knew, that's where we're at. i just don't know that 100 more posts reiterating this serves the purpose.

i have 3 dogs, and there's a 12-foot long, 4" diameter piece of PVC pipe on the property where we walk in the morning. when there's a varmint in that pipe, a dog gets on each end of the pipe and barks repeatedly, reasoning i guess that enough barking will convince the varmint to come out and get eaten. that tactic never works. it's cathartic for the dogs, i guess, but it never coaxes the varmint out. in fact, it probably convinces the varmint to stay put.

That "story" is awesome. It's like a writing work of art - and, I'm serious.


I could break the course record - theoretically, Bishop Pickering - from the movie "Caddyshack"
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sharkbait_au] [ In reply to ]
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Priceless...Ya lose your sense of humour...all is lost! Nice one.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [supersilly] [ In reply to ]
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My understanding is that the guy from Australia was banned by Triathlon Western Australia from all sanctioned triathlon events in Australia for 2 years. He was also banned by WTC from all WTC events worldwide for 2 years. This would indicate that WTC can and have banned people from their events and could be applied in this case.

From what I have read on another Tri forum the Australian guy has ignored the ban and has raced at WTC event last week. It will be interesting to see what WTC does, if this is the case.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Ironnerd] [ In reply to ]
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yeah, my feeling is that if it can be shown (again, how?) that the course-cutting has been intentional and repeated, you have to go for a ban. treat it essentially as doping, since it is a concerted effort to game the system undetected, improve your ranking, and deprive your competitors. that puts it in a different category, for me, from 'sin bin' rule-breaking like littering, positioning fouls, and so on.

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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so, dan - if i could mix several metaphors here (which i know you're not allergic to): is this the tip of the iceberg, or a storm in a teacup?

dev's report of his conversation with sportstats is interesting - how common a problem do with think that this form of cheating (considering course-cutting, chip-losing, and wave-start manipulating all together) really is?

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, your keen insight into human psychy is pretty amazing. I think one reason these threads catch fire is that we all have a little Julie (or Lance, or Starky, etc) in us. I sure do . . . I call him "bad david!" Further, of the finger pointers who all picks and chooses their rules (like me). Anyone ever get a speeding ticket? Shame, shocked, aghast, oh my! By extension, could it be we are dopers? Worse yet, someone like me who got a speeding ticket and then got it fixed because, well, I know how it works and I can. How bad is that!! We all have sins and we can hate the sins, yet not the sinner. We can all hate the course cutter, doper, loud mouth, speeder, etc and still accept the person.

Thanks for accepting and pointing out our humanity,

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Post deleted by livestrongscott [ In reply to ]
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [livestrongscott] [ In reply to ]
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jimmy riccitello is in austria right now for 70.3 worlds. when he gets back he might give you an explanation. if he doesn't post here for several days realize he's got his hands full with the race he's working right now on the other side of the globe.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [livestrongscott] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe they just wanted to make sure she paid the $75 for losing a chip first before DQ'ing her... ;) Congrats to your wife on her well-deserved, if too delayed, win.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [david] [ In reply to ]
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david wrote:
Dan, your keen insight into human psychy is pretty amazing. I think one reason these threads catch fire is that we all have a little Julie (or Lance, or Starky, etc) in us. I sure do . . . I call him "bad david!" Further, of the finger pointers who all picks and chooses their rules (like me). Anyone ever get a speeding ticket? Shame, shocked, aghast, oh my! By extension, could it be we are dopers? Worse yet, someone like me who got a speeding ticket and then got it fixed because, well, I know how it works and I can. How bad is that!! We all have sins and we can hate the sins, yet not the sinner. We can all hate the course cutter, doper, loud mouth, speeder, etc and still accept the person.

Thanks for accepting and pointing out our humanity,

I agree with your comments on human psychy and the fleeting thoughts I've had like "hey, I could just stop now...why complete the 3rd lap." Those are fleeting thoughts during the race that are really about the brain trying to find creative ways to make the pain stop. I admit I've had them. But this is where we disagree. There is a huge difference between the thought and the act. This person not only acted on the thought but apparently planned on ways to maximize her chances of successfully cheating. IMHO there is a huge difference between hearing a tiny voice in the moment that observes an opportunity to essentially quit versus a person who actually plans for and creates opportunities to cheat. Further, I don't think your analogy of a speeding ticket (doesn't everyone break the rules a little?) is incorrect. If I choose to drive over the speed limit, I hurt no one other than myself (if caught). A race cheat takes something away from every other competitor.

So, no, I don't "accept the person" who cheats.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with you, Dan, to a point. We are all human. However, I would only stand by said friend if they came clean and admitted their actions were wrong and hurtful. This is not the case here.

I have a friend who dealt drugs, something that is disgusting to me. He went to jail, admitted his crime and paid for it.

If Julie is truly the person her friends claim she is, she would be telling the painful truth, and we can all move on.

Cervelo R3 and Cannondale Synapse, Argon18 Electron Track Bike
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"What I care is that what was taken from others is restored (podium placements, Kona slots etc) and that measures are put in place so that neither Julie Miller nor anyone in our community can easily circumvent the system."

so, i called triathlon canada about this. you have this athlete. do you have an interest in what's going on? either helping her be vindicated, or if she's guilty helping inoculate future competitors against the specter of course cutting?

at first, it took me one entire conversation just to convince the media liaison person that, yes, IM Canada was sanctioned by the NF. but i got a follow up email:

"please note that while the course was sanctioned by Triathlon BC, the race competition rules for the event are enforced and sanctioned by World Triathlon Corporation (WTC) and its franchisees, and therefore any participant infringement and/or appeal will be a matter for WTC. As noted previously, I therefore suggest you direct your queries to the WTC organisation or Ironman Canada for further comment and information."

so, the idea that you're going to get triathlon canada to take ANY interest AT ALL in anything that includes participation in an ironman race must be considered against the paragraph quoted above.

so, somebody cuts a course, and let's leave ms. miller out of it. somebody cuts a course. an american man. an australian woman. just, in general. let us assume that the course cutting was found to be deliberate. you might determine this because of multiple factors (no chip + course cut), or multiple races where this occurred, or eyewitnesses. i won't recommend what constitutes proof, just, let's assume that you're pretty confident there's proof of the intention to cut the course.

in which bucket to you throw this infraction? is intentional course cutting a single-race-specific violation, like littering? or a suspension-from-racing violation?

most competitors think it's a suspension-type violation, but most race organizations and federations do not treat it with the same ardency.

i'm not going to opine right now on where we ought to be on this; what we ought to do, as a sport. i don't know. i just know there's a gulf between what athletes probably want and what federations are prepared to do. they have no problem suspending you for a year if you use your buddies ID in a race, but how many of these other suspensions occur?

Dan, you've hit the nail on the head here. THIS needs to be addressed. Where is the governance? It seems actions that threaten the integrity of our sport must be uniformly monitored, policed and sanctioned by the governing bodies. In this case Triathlon Canada, and USAT in the U.S. Doping and course cutting come to mind as offenses that should fall under their jurisdiction.

Has Tri Canada taken any action in this case? Or announced intention to do so? Assuming they have not (based on your inquiries above), how can we use this case as a catalyst for change?

Scott
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
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"how can we use this case as a catalyst for change?"

i don't think this case has anything in particular to do with it. probably 2 or 3 times a month we have these kinds of threads. what we have now are a lot of lap courses. we have a lot of timing data. i think one possibility would be macro data analysis. could you write programs that analyze data for anomalies? for example, a run or bike split that is way out of whack with the pace of other splits? you have this flagged data, and the timers then look at that data more closely, to see if there's anything there.

this would be a tool for the front-line battle. if i were an NF, i might spend my money here, a grant for somebody to write code that analyzes raw timing data, making sure that this code was available to any timing company.

but then you need to figure out what constitutes behavior warranting a suspension that survives just that single race. you codify it, you put it in the rules or in the code of ethics, and in the waiver you make sure everyone agrees to abide by the rules (as is now the case). what we have now are races and NF making ad hoc decisions, and they're afraid of the consequences of their decisions, so they're timid. but if we had guidelines, and behaviors that triggered consequences, as we have with drafting, doping, etc., then i think RDs and NFs would be more confident in their decisions.

this is where the NF has a role to play. if you are found to have not completed the prescribed course X times in Y months or years, you get a suspension for 1yr, or 2yr, whatever. or if you have 3 incidences of losing timing chip + not completing the course in 24 months. whatever. that seems a discussion worth having, because more and more of these cases are popping up. either this kind of behavior is really ramping up, or it's always been there but now it's easier to find these incidences. so, rather than hand wringing about what to do in each case, if we had a set of guidelines prescribing what we do, then i think NFs and RDs would know what actions to take, and they'd know that the athletes agree to this process as a condition of racing.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Well said, I couldn't agree more.

So, the question is how we, the constituents, can inspire the NF to take action. You have the power of holding the microphone that broadcasts our voice, and the spotlight that can put daylight on the issue. Do you plan to use those tools? How can we help?

Scott
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
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you're broadcasting your voice right now. i'm hosting the speech, you're the speech. it's highly unlikely what you're writing now is not going to come to the attention of USAT and triathlon canada at a minimum, as well as the leading edge timing companies like sportstats.

if you want to amplify this broadcast then i suggest some of you who are social media savvy might push it out via your own social media. we may as well push on our own facebook page and twitter feed.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Well, it makes me feel better to know you think my voice counts. It would make me feel even better to see something, anything, from the NF saying they are aware of the issue and will address it. The silence on this (and stories such as the IMC border crossing scandal) is what bothers me most.

My social media starts and ends with Slowtwitch. I'd respond to a poll, I'd participate in a discussion of the what the rules, enforcement and consequences should be, I'd add my name to a petition to the NFs, I'd contribute money to a credible solution. I'm just appealing to you to give me (us) those vehicles, because you are the most influential person I have access to.

Put it on the front page and go from there.

Scott
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
you're broadcasting your voice right now. i'm hosting the speech, you're the speech. it's highly unlikely what you're writing now is not going to come to the attention of USAT and triathlon canada at a minimum, as well as the leading edge timing companies like sportstats.

if you want to amplify this broadcast then i suggest some of you who are social media savvy might push it out via your own social media. we may as well push on our own facebook page and twitter feed.


Until some a-hat forum members get personal, destructive or vindictive enough to get the entire thread "hidden"!
Last edited by: Burnt Toast: Aug 30, 15 9:39
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Burnt Toast] [ In reply to ]
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These Lap courses, and especially sprint tris where there are pool swims with a ton of wave starts creates chaos for timers. I have been involved in several where times can get messed up pretty quick. I was recently was involved in a sprint tri where my swim time was way out of whack to the good. When I saw my results, and knew there was something wrong I went to the timers and let them know(sports stats) and they looked thoroughly, and found the issue, and changed the results. I knew because not only do I know my times, I wear a gps Garmin device and know my overall time. In my age group it meant that I was going from 2nd to 5th. I knew my swim time was off, and I am not going to accept something I know is wrong. As people have said, at the pointy end of your age group, you know your splits, almost to the exact minute. There is no way that you don't know where you stand on your splits.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting analogy Dan. BUT JFK was not elected to the highest office in the land because of his fidelity to his wife. His job description was not "worlds best dad".

Julie Miller had one job and cuttjng courses repeatly disqualified her from being able to do that job. Shd should stick with being an inspirational volunteer and great mom.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
but then you need to figure out what constitutes behavior warranting a suspension that survives just that single race. you codify it, you put it in the rules or in the code of ethics, and in the waiver you make sure everyone agrees to abide by the rules (as is now the case). what we have now are races and NF making ad hoc decisions, and they're afraid of the consequences of their decisions, so they're timid. but if we had guidelines, and behaviors that triggered consequences, as we have with drafting, doping, etc., then i think RDs and NFs would be more confident in their decisions.
this is where the NF has a role to play. if you are found to have not completed the prescribed course X times in Y months or years, you get a suspension for 1yr, or 2yr, whatever. or if you have 3 incidences of losing timing chip + not completing the course in 24 months. whatever. that seems a discussion worth having, because more and more of these cases are popping up. either this kind of behavior is really ramping up, or it's always been there but now it's easier to find these incidences. so, rather than hand wringing about what to do in each case, if we had a set of guidelines prescribing what we do, then i think NFs and RDs would know what actions to take, and they'd know that the athletes agree to this process as a condition of racing.
Totally agree with this Dan, I personally will be very disappointed/upset if the NFs don't address some of the blatant course cutting that has been covered in the news lately. I don't think we need to wait for the programming that does the macro analysis, the NF's need to add something to the effect: "competitors that are found to have not completed the entire course through either direct evidence or based on unbelievable splits are subject to DQ. Athletes that are found to have intentionally cut a course to gain a competitive advantage more than once shall be suspended for a minimum of two years. Subsequent intentional course cutting shall result in a lifetime ban from all USAT sanctioned events."

I was pulled into the whole "Mike Rossi" marathon and am disappointed with how that was handled. The fact that Julie Miller has been DQ'd here is great, though I read earlier (or in another thread) somebody raise a good question, why wasn't she DQ'd immediately for not having a timing chip as required? Despite this, kudos that the work was done to show she did cut the course!

For any timing companies or event management/production groups, here is an idea for you, I had thoughts of monetizing this, the idea came to me during the Rossi deal and I was going to call them "Rossi Boxes" and was thinking I could create 20 to 50 Rossi Boxes and have them available to rent to races/events for one or two hundred dollars a weekend. A Rossi Box would be an old Iphone 4 or 5 that is still functional. Combine it with a pelican/waterproof case, a tripod, a security cable and a small solar panel to keep the Iphone active. Combine it with something like this http://www.cnet.com/...ity-camera-for-free/ or I was considering using Dropcam tethered to an Iphone. Either way, the Rossi Boxes could be placed at key spots in the race recording footage that could later be reviewed if there were possible course cutting issues. As technology improves, boxes like this combined with OCR and the requirement to have bib numbers visisble will eventually cause timing chips to be less relevant.


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tonythetriguy wrote:
As technology improves, boxes like this combined with OCR and the requirement to have bib numbers visisble will eventually cause timing chips to be less relevant.



As for the whole "Body Is A Temple" thing? Well, many ancient deities often enjoyed offerings of Sweets and Intoxicants
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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in addition... People who claim that requiring additional accountability on the part of the races to make sure cheating isn't happening assume that means additional timing mats and that this would dramatically increase costs for the race. This isn't surprising that when dealing with triathletes, they always go to the highest and most expensive level of technology. All it would really take is $100 to hire a volunteer/worker to stand/sit at each point needed with a video camera. Or, purchase game cameras and hide them throughout the course at undisclosed locations. Not everything requires a timing mat, you can pick up good quality camera's these days for dirt cheap. Pick up some Flip cameras off Ebay!


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Uncle Phil] [ In reply to ]
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Did anyone catch this blogpost from the "now 4th place" person from the same age category as Julie Miller?

https://aquicktenmiles.wordpress.com/2015/08/28/an-unexpected-addendum/

Pretty weird that she mentions, "Coincidentally the first placed athlete in my AG was standing in front of our vantage point for the awards and both she and her coach vigorously and noisily defended her performance and running capabilities (her coach had put in a protest against her DQ on no chip and her finish time was formally corrected via video footage). It sounded plausible. I shrugged and asked no questions."

Is This true? Cam anyone else verify that her coach was there to protest that Julie Miller was capable of running such fast times? Which coach was this is the next question!
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Uncle Phil] [ In reply to ]
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Uncle Phil wrote:
Ossenbrink wrote:
Hi everyone,
Thanks for the feedback, criticism and positive words regarding my coaching and coaching ethics.
As you would expect, I have cut my ties from Julie Miller. A lot of you have put in a lot of amazing work researching her performances and have found questionable results or even evidence that she did not follow the rules and cut the course. I don't know what it takes for a person to do something like this - there are dopers and there are drafters and course cutters - all of these are serious rule infractions

I agree with some you that I should have researched or analyzed her results after some races more in detail but I did not and this was my mistake! I coached Julie based on her feedback. She did not use Garmin devices or a Powermeter or even a bike computer or downloadable watch. I relied purely on her feedback through TrainingPeaks which was only provided to 10% with some HR numbers. Never was there a any doubt brought up to me from others that she might hav cut courses short or cheated in other ways leading up to this.
I tolerate ZERO cheating with my athletes and as I said before it is possible that I could have caught this earlier with paying better attention - my fault but as a coach I'm not out there to question every race result athletes produce. Nobody expects this from people. I'm NOT responsible for any athletes action and these actions she produced are out of my control.

I have been talking to Dan Empfield (slowman) and Jimmy Riccitello (Head IM official) trying to assist as much as I can.

I’m open to discuss this further. Do it directly, you can contact me via the message board and I will exchange email or a phone after to discuss.

Thanks,
Bjoern
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [twitchiest] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think it's surprising if that occurred. She was lying to her coach who had no reason to not believer her and he was supporting his athlete. Circumstances changed later and the coach did what was appropriate.

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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [twitchiest] [ In reply to ]
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Hah...guess that reveals the source of the pic I posted on the deleted thread!
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tonythetriguy wrote:
in addition... People who claim that requiring additional accountability on the part of the races to make sure cheating isn't happening assume that means additional timing mats and that this would dramatically increase costs for the race. This isn't surprising that when dealing with triathletes, they always go to the highest and most expensive level of technology. All it would really take is $100 to hire a volunteer/worker to stand/sit at each point needed with a video camera. Or, purchase game cameras and hide them throughout the course at undisclosed locations. Not everything requires a timing mat, you can pick up good quality camera's these days for dirt cheap. Pick up some Flip cameras off Ebay!

To your point, cameras are cheap, and you can put them at aid stations (already manned) or at the 180s (also already manned) so no additional personnel are needed. Heck, GoPro is an IM sponsor.
IMO in the event of a lost chip, the onus should be on the athlete to prove the validity of the questionable performance vs. the RD having to prove they cut. Don't wanna lose out on that KQ? Make sure your Garmin is working and your number is visible to the cameras (just in case your chip gets lost).


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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [twitchiest] [ In reply to ]
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twitchiest wrote:
Did anyone catch this blogpost from the "now 4th place" person from the same age category as Julie Miller?

https://aquicktenmiles.wordpress.com/2015/08/28/an-unexpected-addendum/

Pretty weird that she mentions, "Coincidentally the first placed athlete in my AG was standing in front of our vantage point for the awards and both she and her coach vigorously and noisily defended her performance and running capabilities (her coach had put in a protest against her DQ on no chip and her finish time was formally corrected via video footage). It sounded plausible. I shrugged and asked no questions."

Is This true? Cam anyone else verify that her coach was there to protest that Julie Miller was capable of running such fast times? Which coach was this is the next question!
My favorite part of 4th's blog was this: "The Twitchhunters are fantastically probing gossips, and everything from her coach’s knowledge or otherwise of her actions to the size of her thighs are called into question. I’ve never considered cheating, but if I had, the stone throwing of the Slowtwitch forum and the public contemplation of my cellulite (alone) would make me think twice."
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [msk] [ In reply to ]
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msk wrote:
It would be interesting to see if she has full race splits for IMC 2013.
CoachCox has the full results (scroll down to the Google docs link.) No run splits there, either, but FinisherPix does show her wearing a Garmin on the run.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ In reply to ]
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to no one in particular:

you guys were busy developing some interesting new theories. they're a little too out-there for us to develop them further here. if you think you've got a new truth worth exploring, i encourage you to share it with the sportstats folks, who regularly monitor this forum.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Aug 31, 15 6:31
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
to know one in particular:

you guys were busy developing some interesting new theories. they're a little too out-there for us to develop them further here. if you think you've got a new truth worth exploring, i encourage you to share it with the sportstats folks, who regularly monitor this forum.
Hmm. . I could be wrong however I don't believe the "know one" was a grammatical error.

As in you know who you are ;)
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Ty] [ In reply to ]
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thank you for the catch. before my morning coffee kicks in i tend only to think audibly, and am caught by homonyms.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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We were just showing the person who asked if triathletes have forgotten how to have fun that we still do.

This onion has way too many layers and, you have to admit, some of them are pretty dang odd.

We are so fucked.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [uucee] [ In reply to ]
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uucee wrote:
msk wrote:
It would be interesting to see if she has full race splits for IMC 2013.
CoachCox has the full results (scroll down to the Google docs link.) No run splits there, either, but FinisherPix does show her wearing a Garmin on the run.

Curiously, in one image on the run, she clearly has a Polar(?) on her left wrist and a Garmin(?) on her right wrist. Other images show both watches on her left wrist. Then Garmin is definitely gone by the finishing chute, with only the Polar visible.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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i'm not saying there's no validity to the latest line of inquiry. but some folks were getting pretty fast and loose with the concepts, mixing the 2013 and 2015 races, and bringing in a second person who, as far as i know, is not culpable. when you're an anonymous poster to a reader forum you can throw out whatever you want, leaving it to the moderator to consider the consequences (to potentially innocent parties, for example).

so, our ex-user "Mr. X" left as many do, performing a triple salkow on his way out the door: "I am done contributing to this forum - your moderation of free (and constructive - on this particular matter) is more than I care to be associated with. - please feel free to delete my existence."

he and I agree on point point: he is done contributing to this forum.

there are a couple of people here who, on their own, have developed well-reasoned theories for if and how misdeeds were performed, and then presented them. the "evernote" is a case in point. if someone would like to develop this latest theory offline, and present it to me, i'm interested in seeing it.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I gotta say, this thread is not easy to keep track of. Up and down like the Roman Empire... ;-)


Cheers,
malte
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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i also believe there's a bulge in her singlet where a watch might have been thrust? unless moving a watch from one wrist to the next, then shoving it down one's top, is a violation of the rules then to your specific point i don't see the problem.

however, you guys are very good at this kind of thing. better than me. just, i'd like to see somebody develop a coherent, compelling theory and present it to me (or to the sportstats folks) off the forum board. if there really is something here then i'm sure one of you will generate it.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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I'd answer that for you, but all mentioned of that discussion got yanked earlier this morning.

You also missed the discussion about disappearing tan lines and disappearing/reappearing blue wristband.

deh20 wrote:
uucee wrote:
msk wrote:
It would be interesting to see if she has full race splits for IMC 2013.
CoachCox has the full results (scroll down to the Google docs link.) No run splits there, either, but FinisherPix does show her wearing a Garmin on the run.


Curiously, in one image on the run, she clearly has a Polar(?) on her left wrist and a Garmin(?) on her right wrist. Other images show both watches on her left wrist. Then Garmin is definitely gone by the finishing chute, with only the Polar visible.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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When someone is discovered to have been doping, all their results during the time that they were doping are stripped/nullified. My feeling are that the same should be true with deliberate course cutting. I'm glad that sportstats appears to be going back through previous results and DQ'ing Julie from races with crazy splits on the part of Julie. Having timed races before, one look at this here: http://rhq.sportstats.ca:8085/...i/VancTri2014LD.html and Julie should have been DQ'd the day of the race, when there is a 142, followed by a 1 a 1, and then a 42 it is quite obvious that rules were broken, either major drafting or course cutting… Better late then never though!

Moving forward, hopefully NF's will make changes so that deliberate course cutters are dealt with in a similar way that dopers are.


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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"I'd answer that for you, but all mentioned of that discussion got yanked earlier this morning. You also missed the discussion about disappearing tan lines and disappearing/reappearing blue wristband."

i saw all the posts. are you volunteering to do the research on this offline? if so, i'll send you by email the information you're missing from the thread.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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A few of the pics did show the bulge. It could be a watch in there. There are also a few more pics of her running toward the finish where there is no 2nd watch on the wrist and no bulge in her top. It could be that she threw it in her special needs bag or in a trash bin at some point. The missing blue bracelet is pretty big red flag to me and is worth a discussion. One could argue that the blue bracelet was tucked under the watch in her right arm, but those bracelets tend to be snapped on pretty tightly and doesn't rise that far up the forearm.

Slowman wrote:
i also believe there's a bulge in her singlet where a watch might have been thrust? unless moving a watch from one wrist to the next, then shoving it down one's top, is a violation of the rules then to your specific point i don't see the problem.

however, you guys are very good at this kind of thing. better than me. just, i'd like to see somebody develop a coherent, compelling theory and present it to me (or to the sportstats folks) off the forum board. if there really is something here then i'm sure one of you will generate it.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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not sure I understand. violation of which rule?
Slowman wrote:
i also believe there's a bulge in her singlet where a watch might have been thrust? unless moving a watch from one wrist to the next, then shoving it down one's top, is a violation of the rules.
Last edited by: Fenton: Aug 31, 15 7:49
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tony, i think you might have missed the very unsexy part of this discussion, where i wrote:

i think one possibility would be macro data analysis. could you write programs that analyze data for anomalies? for example, a run or bike split that is way out of whack with the pace of other splits? you have this flagged data, and the timers then look at that data more closely, to see if there's anything there.

this would be a tool for the front-line battle. if i were an NF, i might spend my money here, a grant for somebody to write code that analyzes raw timing data, making sure that this code was available to any timing company.


timing company people are very busy on race day. their mandate is to get the results right, per the information at their disposal. if we're going to give them an additional mandate, to parse the raw data to catch cheaters, fine. but it's an extra job. either we all need to pay an extra fifty cents or a buck an entry for the new person whose job it is to catch cheaters, or we all get together to build and provide all timers with new tools, or both. just, i don't think it has been generally accepted that it's the timers' exclusive job to catch cheaters. this whole thing has kind of snuck up on us.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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zoom wrote:
I'd answer that for you, but all mentioned of that discussion got yanked earlier this morning.

You also missed the discussion about disappearing tan lines and disappearing/reappearing blue wristband.

deh20 wrote:
uucee wrote:
msk wrote:
It would be interesting to see if she has full race splits for IMC 2013.
CoachCox has the full results (scroll down to the Google docs link.) No run splits there, either, but FinisherPix does show her wearing a Garmin on the run.


Curiously, in one image on the run, she clearly has a Polar(?) on her left wrist and a Garmin(?) on her right wrist. Other images show both watches on her left wrist. Then Garmin is definitely gone by the finishing chute, with only the Polar visible.

Can't step away from ST for even enough time to train!

My only thought is that one of those watches must have a record of what happened. Water under the bridge at this point. I'll try to move on. But it's just so hard to look away.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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No Dan, I didn't miss that part and I thought it was an excellent post, I quoted part of it here in a reply: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=5676574#5676574 Timing people are very busy on the day of the race, part of the reason I got out of it and have been reluctant to get back into timing despite having multiple opportunities to do so! When I did timing, one thing I always did when I could, was look for outliers. I was timing back in 2005, I was a one man crew. It seems as technology has improved, timing has gotten more difficult rather than less difficult!

But this is the discussion that needs to be happening!


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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I thought the clear statement that "she never trains with Garmin or Polar", then shows up in photos with one of each, wasnt farfetched or stretching any sort of truth at all.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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zoom wrote:
A few of the pics did show the bulge. It could be a watch in there. There are also a few more pics of her running toward the finish where there is no 2nd watch on the wrist and no bulge in her top. It could be that she threw it in her special needs bag or in a trash bin at some point. The missing blue bracelet is pretty big red flag to me and is worth a discussion. One could argue that the blue bracelet was tucked under the watch in her right arm, but those bracelets tend to be snapped on pretty tightly and doesn't rise that far up the forearm.

Slowman wrote:
i also believe there's a bulge in her singlet where a watch might have been thrust? unless moving a watch from one wrist to the next, then shoving it down one's top, is a violation of the rules then to your specific point i don't see the problem.

however, you guys are very good at this kind of thing. better than me. just, i'd like to see somebody develop a coherent, compelling theory and present it to me (or to the sportstats folks) off the forum board. if there really is something here then i'm sure one of you will generate it.

In one of the pictures where she is wearing both watches you can clearly see that she is wearing a timing chip. I guess it "fell off" before the first timing mat though. This is all getting so interesting. Someone needs to find where on the course that pic with the timing chip was taken.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [jpay] [ In reply to ]
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edit: to keep thread evidence-based.

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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Aug 31, 15 9:21
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [jpay] [ In reply to ]
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jpay wrote:

In one of the pictures where she is wearing both watches you can clearly see that she is wearing a timing chip. I guess it "fell off" before the first timing mat though. This is all getting so interesting. Someone needs to find where on the course that pic with the timing chip was taken.

Yeah, looks like there is a timing chip in this picture.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe they are WWE fans...
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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thank you for the edit.

just to reiterate, for those who aren't yet understanding my posture here:

1. julie miller has been disqualified from two races, and in each case it's for not completing the prescribed course. in one case it was for not running the entire course. in the other for not completing the entire bike course.

2. there are other races she competed in wher splits were recorded that are beyond what many or most consider the fastest split possible by ms. miller, chief among them the ITU worlds run split from 2014 in weihai. i suspect this race is under current scrutiny, and would not be surprised if other races are as well, considering the circumstances in these first two DQs.

3. she is named in these threads, and you are allowed here to discuss this, because she has been deemed by the relevant authorities (race officials) to have committed the offenses. but i'm not interested in you all implicating others because your whimsy takes you there. so, please do not bring in ms. miller's priest, dog, high school best friend, or anyone else into this discussion unless you're prepared to make a definitive case you are prepared to stand behind and when i say "you" i don't mean you the anonymous user but you.

4. if you have a specific theory regarding another race, and evidence, i will consider allowing it here. but no magic bullets, magic lugies, second gunmen. develop a theory, but take care what you develop. ms. miller has been deemed to have broken the rules in 2 races. she is not a pinata, at least, not on slowtwitch.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Aug 31, 15 9:46
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [champy] [ In reply to ]
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champy wrote:
jpay wrote:

In one of the pictures where she is wearing both watches you can clearly see that she is wearing a timing chip. I guess it "fell off" before the first timing mat though. This is all getting so interesting. Someone needs to find where on the course that pic with the timing chip was taken.


Yeah, looks like there is a timing chip in this picture.

It appears in some of the pictures her blue entry band is missing as well.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
tony, i think you might have missed the very unsexy part of this discussion, where i wrote:

i think one possibility would be macro data analysis. could you write programs that analyze data for anomalies? for example, a run or bike split that is way out of whack with the pace of other splits? you have this flagged data, and the timers then look at that data more closely, to see if there's anything there.

this would be a tool for the front-line battle. if i were an NF, i might spend my money here, a grant for somebody to write code that analyzes raw timing data, making sure that this code was available to any timing company.


timing company people are very busy on race day. their mandate is to get the results right, per the information at their disposal. if we're going to give them an additional mandate, to parse the raw data to catch cheaters, fine. but it's an extra job. either we all need to pay an extra fifty cents or a buck an entry for the new person whose job it is to catch cheaters, or we all get together to build and provide all timers with new tools, or both. just, i don't think it has been generally accepted that it's the timers' exclusive job to catch cheaters. this whole thing has kind of snuck up on us.

Dan, Sportstats already does this at the WTC races they time in North America and Asia. They then make recommendations to th RD's on DQ's. Marc is traveling back from Europe to North America toda and probably can't respond, but I thought earlier in this thread or another one I explained what they do in addtion to acquiring the raw data. They run some additional analytics to see if laps were skipped, if there is sudden changes in pace compared to an athletes own splits or the median degradations (something you might pick up if a person hopped in a car for example or had someone ride around the course on a mountain bike carrying their chip over timing wires. Anyway some of the stuff you speak of is being done. 5-10 results are thrown out in many WTC Ironmans that never get discussed on ST.

Perhaps you can consider an interview Marc on some of the technology they have developed and how they apply it on race day. Many readers will find it both interesting and also comforting that someone is looking out for clean athletes.

Dev
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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i saw that you wrote this. a couple of things come to mind:

1. this probably wasn't installed, or the scope of the software beyond, what happened at the subaru vancouver half.
2. i would very much like to pursue the 5-10 people statement. that is per race? and how often is this a false positive for cheating? in other words, how many times is it determined out of these 5-10 that somebody crossed the finish, doing too few laps or in some way not the prescribed course, and claiming the result as valid?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
2. there are other races she competed in wher splits were recorded that are beyond what many or most consider the fastest split possible by ms. miller, chief among them the ITU worlds run split from 2014 in weihai. i suspect this race is under current scrutiny, and would not be surprised if other races are as well, considering the circumstances in these first two DQs.
Does anyone have a list of Julie's race results they would be willing to share?

This is an interesting read here with what we know now: http://www.powherhouse.com/...-victory-whats-next/


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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It's all summed up by The Great Vizinni:

(No friends, relatives, employees, employers, school friends, or innocent bystanders were harmed during the making of this post)
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i saw that you wrote this. a couple of things come to mind:

1. this probably wasn't installed, or the scope of the software beyond, what happened at the subaru vancouver half.
2. i would very much like to pursue the 5-10 people statement. that is per race? and how often is this a false positive for cheating? in other words, how many times is it determined out of these 5-10 that somebody crossed the finish, doing too few laps or in some way not the prescribed course, and claiming the result as valid?

Dan, please check in with Marc on the 5-10 people that they find did not earn their finish and get DQ'd. He seemed to say this was per WTC IM. I am sure some of this is honest confusion but there is also some intentional stuff going on....which frankly is not that surprising. out of 2500, if you have 5 DQ's that is only 0.2% of the field that is intentionally or non intentionally earning an Mdot medal and don't under estimate the leveraging of Mdot medals for bragging rights in society outside of our little tri world. If 0.2% of people try to get a false finish for bragging rights that number does not seem to be outrageous. It's like people who over inflate their resumes or make false claims. Heck even IM Cowboy was pretty loose on his definition of what he was calling an IM, so if he can do that, we should not be surprised if others would go through some means to cut courses to get medals/finisher certificates for bragging rights.

Dev
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i saw that you wrote this. a couple of things come to mind:

1. this probably wasn't installed, or the scope of the software beyond, what happened at the subaru vancouver half.
2. i would very much like to pursue the 5-10 people statement. that is per race? and how often is this a false positive for cheating? in other words, how many times is it determined out of these 5-10 that somebody crossed the finish, doing too few laps or in some way not the prescribed course, and claiming the result as valid?

I have just gone through this entire thread, and for a thread dedicated to facts/evidence about Julie Miller, there is precious little of either. It seems the vast majority of fact and evidence simply disappeared, along with a lot of cruft, with the deleted thread.

Regarding point 1. In that deleted thread there was a post from a male at the Vancouver Half who witnessed Julie Miller cut the run course. He also passed her twice and gave her a knowing smile/nod that he knew what she was up to. He also reported that he witnessed the cheating to the race officials, who then failed to DQ her due to lack of timing data to support cheating. This despite the bike data that showed her outsplitting all professionals on 2 of the 4 laps.

Lock the thread. Don't delete it. Then useful information like this post from an athlete who viewed it firsthand can be read, can be linked to, can be kept for posterity rather than eliminated from existence like Tiananmen Square for those behind The Great Firewall. You say deleting the thread is moderation. Others, myself included, say it is censorship. What, exactly, is the rule that dictates a locked thread vs a hidden thread? I'm sure finman, newbz, t3, Mike Rossi, and other cheaters who have been made to look bad want to know.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i've spoken to a number of people who know her who, if you discount for a moment this silo of her behavior, have nothing but glowing comments about her. she's loved, admired, she's known to be giving, inspirational, and on and on. i can't speak about julie, i don't know her, and wouldn't try to characterize her if i did, but in my experience those who are loved and admired are often or usually loved and admired for good, valid and real reasons. everything that was thought good about them was good. most of us think of people in binary terms: good or bad, healthy or unhealthy. in my experience that's just not real life.

i'm a bit late to this. but that is simply garbage. no one here cares if she's a good mother, charitable person etc. we care about her cheating in a race that involves other athletes working hard. she has cheated folks out of kona slots, she deserves to be banned from triathlons for life.

imagine being that person that had one chance to KQ, trained really really hard, sacrificed everything only to have julie come in and steal her spot. that other athlete may never have a chance to KQ again. she robbed others of a year of their life. that's how i see it. so what if she donates to charity and is the best mom ever.

if you discount a silo of behavior from many bad people they are glowing human beings as well.

don't mean to jab at you dan. but i totally discredit what her friends and family have to say about her. hitlers mom probably thought he was an angel.

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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [kny] [ In reply to ]
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I have to agree. Lock the thread and don't delete. I understand worries about slander however this is pretty much a done deal. She is silent.


There is just so much evidence. And the question regarding a co-conspirator.. . Much has been deleted. . you can call it speculation but I don't believe that there is one poster here who wishes to accuse or point a finger at an innocent athlete.

People are outraged that cheating such as this goes on and would yes, like some repercussions to a cheat.

All the evidence that has been posted and deleted could be brought back and I think the powers that be should look into it.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Ty] [ In reply to ]
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to you last 3 gents: Ty, kny, and aahchon. as well as others who feel as you do...

i note that a number of people who live in BC and who participated on this thread early on are not participating now. i don't know why, but it might be that they got the same love note i did from ms. miller's attorney, with the threat of litigation if i didn't excise and keep off the site much or most or the meaningful discussion on this topic. i'm now several thousand dollars into this, so that this thread can continue.

there has been at least 1 thread on this up on site continually since this story first broke. there will continue to be a thread. we are now in the neighborhood of 700 posts on this. this thread remains, notwithstanding the demand that it be gone entirely, or censored with a much heavier hand that i am using. this is an issue that threatens to erode confidence in our sport. this is an important topic. i'm willing to accept a certain degree of expense and peril to allow you all the freedom to discuss something that threatens to unravel the fabric of fair play.

finally, we do have an attachment to decency, fairness and civility on this forum, always have. before i pull any posts on these threads i try always to ask myself whether i would moderate this thread the same if there were no lawyers looking over all our shoulders right now. i hope the answer is in each case yes. just, i'm fain to allow a line of reasoning that, when followed to its terminus, may implicate an additional person, notwithstanding the fact that you are certain there was a second gunman on the grassy knoll.

i doubt you 3 are interested in splitting the legal bill 4 ways. i therefore ask that you filter your criticism of my moderation through the prism of the new check i write every day so that we can continue to discuss an important issue.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
+1 (until you went off the deep end with the Hitler analogy ;) )

Been following this, but not up to date and didn't see anything in this thread... Any revised statement/admission/apology/request to talk with Oprah from Julie?
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Lawyering up sure won't help her image. If fact, I suspect it will have the reverse effect to what she's trying to do. I agree that this stuff doesn't make her an overall "horrible person". That said, she was more than willing to accept the "fame" of her results, so it's entirely appropriate that she also experience the "shame" for how she got the results.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
to you last 3 gents: Ty, kny, and aahchon. as well as others who feel as you do...

i note that a number of people who live in BC and who participated on this thread early on are not participating now. i don't know why, but it might be that they got the same love note i did from ms. miller's attorney, with the threat of litigation if i didn't excise and keep off the site much or most or the meaningful discussion on this topic. i'm now several thousand dollars into this, so that this thread can continue.

there has been at least 1 thread on this up on site continually since this story first broke. there will continue to be a thread. we are now in the neighborhood of 700 posts on this. this thread remains, notwithstanding the demand that it be gone entirely, or censored with a much heavier hand that i am using. this is an issue that threatens to erode confidence in our sport. this is an important topic. i'm willing to accept a certain degree of expense and peril to allow you all the freedom to discuss something that threatens to unravel the fabric of fair play.

finally, we do have an attachment to decency, fairness and civility on this forum, always have. before i pull any posts on these threads i try always to ask myself whether i would moderate this thread the same if there were no lawyers looking over all our shoulders right now. i hope the answer is in each case yes. just, i'm fain to allow a line of reasoning that, when followed to its terminus, may implicate an additional person, notwithstanding the fact that you are certain there was a second gunman on the grassy knoll.

i doubt you 3 are interested in splitting the legal bill 4 ways. i therefore ask that you filter your criticism of my moderation through the prism of the new check i write every day so that we can continue to discuss an important issue.


This is a sweet internet bitch slap!
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Matthew] [ In reply to ]
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Matthew wrote:
Lawyering up sure won't help her image. If fact, I suspect it will have the reverse effect to what she's trying to do. I agree that this stuff doesn't make her an overall "horrible person". That said, she was more than willing to accept the "fame" of her results, so it's entirely appropriate that she also experience the "shame" for how she got the results.

agreed. sorry you are wasting money on this dan. if you don't want your imaged tarnished, don't do things that will tarnish it. it's that simple. with that said, i'll take what you said into consideration. no one here is questioning her character out of triathlon racing.

legalgooner wrote:
+1 (until you went off the deep end with the Hitler analogy ;) )

Been following this, but not up to date and didn't see anything in this thread... Any revised statement/admission/apology/request to talk with Oprah from Julie?

my point was not that hitler was good person. my point was that it doesn't matter what friends/loved ones thing/say because they are biased. there is a reason why family members/friends are not allowed on juries of people they know.

john

Catalyst Wheel Covers: Be faster and look great without sacrificing weight.

TOPO Footwear: use code TOPOTRAN20 for 20% off any order!
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Dan for allowing this thread to continue! I should have assumed that Ms Miller would lawyer up just as Rossi did… My blood gets rather heated when I learn about cheating like this, even hotter when I find out she has lawyered up in an attempt to squash the efforts to expose her cheating! Then I look at a chached version of Ms Miller's attempts to fundraise to support her cheating, er, triathlons: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/...us&client=safari


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Matthew] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"Lawyering up sure won't help her image."

you are right. and on the one hand i'm royally pissed that i'm having to write checks because of this.

on the other hand, if you look at this dispassionately, it's kind of a requirement. she either:

1. truly believes she has completed the prescribed courses in these races; or
2. she in any case intends to maintain that she did.

either way, no reasonable person would not act to protect him- or herself in the way she has. when looked at from this later perspective, it's understandable that she is moving to protect her good name.

i therefore REALLY do not want you all to consider this another line of attack on her. my horse kicked me yesterday and i may or may not have a broken leg. we're nearing two deaths in our immediately family. yet i'm sure the toilet getting flushed on julie's head exceeds in volume the toilet getting flushed on mine. i'd like to tell the truth of her story. but i have no desire to pile on, and i wish none of you would either.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tonythetriguy wrote:
Thanks Dan for allowing this thread to continue! I should have assumed that Ms Miller would lawyer up just as Rossi did… My blood gets rather heated when I learn about cheating like this, even hotter when I find out she has lawyered up in an attempt to squash the efforts to expose her cheating! Then I look at a chached version of Ms Miller's attempts to fundraise to support her cheating, er, triathlons: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/...us&client=safari

Perhaps we should all go to that site to show our support for the World Champion?

----------------------------------
"i disagree with your analysis [or judgment], nevertheless you have the responsibility of moderating this board so i honor your authority to make the moderating decisions."
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]
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I understood the point completely and agree with the "spirit" of it. Just think it is not best practice to use extreme examples to make a point. Just my take.

I figured lawyering up was on the horizon. Likely why we have yet to receive any type of definitive statement since the original "I stand by my results" nonsense. Me thinks this is not a "PR" move, but rather looking a few steps ahead about what could come of this. DQs wouldn't necessarily require lawyering up. However, when your DQs were the result of conscious course cutting coupled with receiving money/travel miles/donations/etc. based on such conscious course cutting results, those supporters may be feeling a wee bit deceived and may want something now.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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sorry if i'm not following along.

it appears as if she has not finished the course MULTIPLE times. yet she claims innocence? look, i'm sure it could happen to anyone, cutting the course short once, maybe even twice. but this appears to be a chronic problem. the evidence seems quite strong, she's running at pro pace/ olympic marathoner pace for a lap? i don't know many 40-44 females (in fact, i don't know ANY) who can run a sub 2:40 marathon pace for 6 miles....

does she not track her data? how is it that she doesn't look back and say, that's weird, i ran that course so fast, that's the pace i run my 4x200 track workouts at. idk, i want to believe she did all that by accident, but it's really really hard to argue against the evidence.

also, how is us talking about her any different than a group of guys discussing her cheating/timing/course issues at a bar.

^if this is the type of post that is costing you money dan, please let me know. i'm still not sure what i AM and AM NOT allowed to say about her (in order to not cost you anymore money)

john

Catalyst Wheel Covers: Be faster and look great without sacrificing weight.

TOPO Footwear: use code TOPOTRAN20 for 20% off any order!
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks for standing up to the legal pressure Dan, and sorry for your circumstances.

I noticed her rower friend who had blogged her support of her has now removed the comments at the bottom of her blogs. Presumably part of the "internet-image-cleansing" her lawyers are working on. In fact, I'm sure it won't be long before the second blog is taken down altogether, given it essentially admits that she likely did intentionally cut courses.

Is this also why we have heard little more from her coach? He said he would be open to questions, but that appears to have changed. Was he the person protesting her DQ at IMC, as the 4th placed finisher described in her blog?
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. I wonder if she also sent facebook, twitter, evernote, and other blogs and social media sites that are discussing her cheating similar cease-and-desist letters as well. I hope the checks you are writing for legal counsel on the matter are not large, because she has very little legal basis to stand on in demanding you remove user-generated content others have contributed regarding her.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Was this asked, answered, analyzed? (probably, but I might be using the wrong keyword search...)

Are Finisherpix pictures timestamped? Every race pictures I have received from other services (always free - aka included in registration fee, although never from Finisherpix) were timestamped correctly - every single one of them. Bogus splits are very easy to find that way.

Similar to what they do to catch fast drivers on toll lanes.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
Thanks for standing up to the legal pressure Dan, and sorry for your circumstances.

I noticed her rower friend who had blogged her support of her has now removed the comments at the bottom of her blogs. Presumably part of the "internet-image-cleansing" her lawyers are working on. In fact, I'm sure it won't be long before the second blog is taken down altogether, given it essentially admits that she likely did intentionally cut courses.

Is this also why we have heard little more from her coach? He said he would be open to questions, but that appears to have changed. Was he the person protesting her DQ at IMC, as the 4th placed finisher described in her blog?

At least JayPeeWhy's two evernote posts are still up and available. I just hope he didn't meet a wood chipper.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i'd like to tell the truth of her story.

I hope you are still going to do a story on this situation, as one example of cheating in the age group ranks, and what can be done to address it. Someone posted that 5-10 people per IM are cheating like this? (not counting drafting I suppose). I don't want to get into specifics here, but I know of a situation where an athlete raced an IM last year with a mirror and was seen drafting like crazy on the bike and ended up winning the age group and took the Kona slot. This year, I guess Sportstats/RD heard of the situation and they looked for the athlete on the course and the athlete was again riding with the mirror. This time, the athlete was DQ;'d. Still, that same athlete stole someone's Kona slot last year.

Sportstats I thought posted recently that they have a list of folks they look for who are suspect in races? If that is the case, I wish that policy was made public as a deterrent.

There needs to be a policy for each IM, DQ's are listed in the results and for what reason, and/or master list kept on Ironman.com. Seems like there should be much stiffer penalties for these situations than a DQ.



Powered by Dark Horse Coaching: http://www.darkhorsetriathlon.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry to hear about the nearing deaths and possible broken leg! As others have mentioned, I too will contribute if you setup a gofundme account. I would however be surprised if Julie's lawyering isn't much more than a bluff. Mike Rossi did the same thing and while he was able to intimidate Lehigh Valley Via Marathon (or they were just incompetent) into not DQing him, Letsrun went ahead and published their $100k challenge and as far as I know they have not been sued over it (despite getting a letter from Rossi's lawyer). I wrote this blog post: http://triathleteguru.blogspot.com/...g-with-cheaters.html as well as posted this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxKfEiOfGmY I have yet to hear from his lawyer. Best defense against defamation is telling the truth...


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tonythetriguy wrote:
... just as Rossi did…

Did he really, or did he just say he did?

As for the whole "Body Is A Temple" thing? Well, many ancient deities often enjoyed offerings of Sweets and Intoxicants
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 
Quote:
Did he really, or did he just say he did?

Quote:
"We reached out to Mr. Rossi to let him know of the pending publication of this article and asking him for evidence supporting his assertion that he ran the race. The fact that he would have the evidence but not want to provide it seems illogical. Our email was met with a reply from a lawyer who has been “retained to investigate and prosecute any and all claims of defamation arising from false allegations of competition cheating made against my client (Mr. Rossi).”
In a subsequent conversation with the lawyer, he said that Mr. Rossi “has identified at last 6 photos, (and) a possible a 7th photo where he thinks he’s in the image of people running on the course.” Conveniently, neither the lawyer or Mr. Rossi would provide us with the photos or links to the photos."
http://www.letsrun.com/...ting-line-in-boston/
If you read that whole article that's Letsrun published, you'll see that Mike Rossi tweeted some threatening tweets directed towards me…
Rossi did take a lot of abuse on Letsrun.com's internet thread and obviously Dan is doing an excellent job keeping this thread on topic and preventing it from spiraling out of control. I do see a lot of similarities between Rossi and Miller, both in the self promotion, the cheating, and then the lawyering up once caught in their cheating.


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [mbwallis] [ In reply to ]
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mbwallis wrote:

At least JayPeeWhy's two evernote posts are still up and available. I just hope he didn't meet a wood chipper.


I am still here and have yet to receive any form of litigation. That said I have tried to stick to facts and I am not sure anyone is allowed to tell me not to summarize data that is already in the public domain. To be honest, I had to take some time off the whole Miller thing and I was also racing Challenge Penticton on Sunday.

Whilst in Penticton I received an abundance of 'thank you' and 'well done' from people I have never met before. I think they recognized my wife from the pictures. I have also received tons of Facebook messages and various other modes of communications, and I know that the vast majority have not posted on ST. I think this goes to show how important platforms like Slowtwitch really are when a group or community has a need to address a situation, the audience is far, far beyond what some of us regular users may perceive. Very few went into a Julie rant by name. Nearly all simply wanted a clean sport and a fair race and were shocked by the data and number of occurances that seem to have been missed.

The crowd funding idea is a good one, I imagine there would be a limitless amount of participation.

I had a call from the (Krista) friend who wrote the blog article on Julie. The conversation was primarily based on "I know her and I can't believe she did it" which is understandable and made me realize just how shocked people might be if we all took the skeletons out of our closet. To be fair to Krista ... She knows Julie and does not know Triathlon. She was merely backing her friend but had little idea of the intricacies that result in the evidence being overwhelming for IMC and Vancover Half.

To be honest I am not sure where we are left with this. Out of all the associations we 'belong to' and should be guardians of the sport (Triathlon BC, Triathlon Canada, British Triathlon, ITU.) none have been forthcoming with protection / research and only TriBC returned an email and facilitated a call although I have heard nothing since providing the evidence. Thankfully the businesses (Ironman / Sportstats / Ossenbrink Coaching) seem to have stepped up to the plate and worked towards a result, at least in the areas they are responsible for.

Maybe Dan can assist in providing a route through which concerns can be driven with the previously mentioned associations. Because it would appear that people are making a mockery of their races and members.

Powered by - Wave Physiotherapy | PB+J Coaching
Last edited by: JayPeeWhy: Aug 31, 15 13:56
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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i am very suspicious of this run

Three big and important races for Julie Miller, and three lost timing chips - that's a fact!

People go a whole life-time in triathlon and never lose a timing chip! JM, loses three, in three big races in a year!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ In reply to ]
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to no one in particular:

i attempted to hide a post and hid the fruit of these posts as well, which turned out to be a number of recent posts. very sorry about that. unfortunately it is not possible to reattach it. very sorry about that. none of you wrote anything wrong. just my mistake.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
1. truly believes she has completed the prescribed courses in these races; or
2. she in any case intends to maintain that she did.


Dan,

I mentioned this in passing in the other thread, and I hope it's OK here, as it is fitting.

FWIW - Rosie Ruiz was tracked down and interviewed a few years ago. She still maintains and truly believes, she won the Boston Marathon on that infamous day!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Aug 31, 15 17:52
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
A number of you have shown interest in helping to defray legal costs Slowtwitch might incur associated with this issue. I’m flattered. I appreciate the gesture, but we will fight this battle ourselves and bear our own legal costs. Thank you all.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
A number of you have shown interest in helping to defray legal costs Slowtwitch might incur associated with this issue. I’m flattered. I appreciate the gesture, but we will fight this battle ourselves and bear our own legal costs. Thank you all.

IMPOSTER!!! Clearly cut and pasted due to font and we all know Dan doesn't use capitalization!!!
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly, that reply was obviously drafted by his lawyer.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
timing company people are very busy on race, day. their mandate is to get the results right, per the information at their disposal...
Yeah, but getting the results right includes not having people in the results who didn't do the full course. At the Ironman races we run a script intermittently once the finishers start coming in. It lists everybody who misses any of the timing wires on the course, at any time, all day. We then go through their race segment by segment to figure out what happened. They either get DQ'd right there or if it looks legit they get marked as OK. That's the one time the timer will do the DQ's and not wait for a ref or RD to do it. At the end of the night that script has to come up blank - either people are DQ'd or marked OK. That's the only way somebody with a missing split isn't flagged by that script. After the race Jimmy Riccitello gets a list of all the DQ's and he follows up. And if anybody doubts it, he does follow up - even if it's a plodder at the back of the pack. Jimmy emails and calls me all the time to ask for detailed timing information on DQ'd athletes or just to hash it out back and forth to make sure that we get it right. We both want all the short cutters out and everybody who does the full course in.

Dev mentioned that Marc told him that 5-10 athletes will get DQ'd on average at a given race. Usually it's at the low end there, but I've DQ'd up to 30! Seriously. In a full-on Ironman 70.3. How many of those get reinstated later? Usually zero. It ain't rocket surgery. If they're missing split times and their time from the split before to the split after is out of whack - faster than you'd expect based on the rest of their race - they get nuked. I'd be happy to reinstate somebody if they can produce a GPS file that shows that they did the whole course but that doesn't tend to happen. I've seen more bogus screen shots of somebody else's Garmin activity (two occasions, including T3 of course) than actual tcx/gpx files or links to a real GPS activity proving that somebody did the whole course (zero occasions). The chips we use don't miss many reads and if, for whatever reason, there is a miss, the running/cycling speed from before and after the miss will tell the tale. Usually they'll go out at 9 minute pace, finish at 11 minute pace, disappear for the middle split and would need to be going 7 minute pace for the time they disappear. It's rarely hard to figure out. There might be 1 of those on average at a race, sometimes none, sometimes it's ridiculous (cough, Miami). The most common anomalies are people who finish the race after failing to do a lap. I've had people finish IMAZ after one lap of the three lap run. In a busy race I don't bother putting much thought into a situation like that. Finish after 1-lap? DQ. If they email after the race saying they just wanted to DNF and give their chip back and would rather be a DNF than a DQ, I'll go look at Finisherpix and look for a pic of them posing with a medal. I'll switch them to a DNF if there isn't one. If there is one, they stay a DQ and Jimmy gets informed that they tried to get a DQ overturned despite posing for a finish pic with a medal. Don't even think about it!

OK, Vancouver 2014. Why no DQ for the athlete in question? I asked the timer and he couldn't clearly remember but it looks like he didn't have a wireless connection to the one split point on the bike course, so there was a delay getting the times from there. In his defense, that Vancouver race is a tough day. Look at the list of events: Long Distance (70.3) @ 6:30 am; Aqua Bike @ 6:30 am; Olympic @ 7:30 am; Sprint @ 8:04 am. So there's a lot to do and by the time he downloads the split times from the bike he's probably already printing awards and putting out whatever other fires have popped up. He'd check for missing laps on the bike, but wouldn't have necessarily checked for fast laps. That race was using the older ChampionChip technology which is not conducive to multiple bike splits, so there was only the one, in a parking lot at the start of each lap. If there was one at the far end of each loop, the two shortcut laps would have had a missed read and a more obvious DQ situation. Lacking that, the reason that ugly text file has a ranking position for each split is so that you can easily scan up and down the full list of results looking for single digits where there shouldn't be single digits. Like those two anomalous 1st place bike splits which should have meant insta-DQ. So, no doubt, we should have caught that one. If there's a situation like a 2-lap in-water swim with no exit for lap timing, or if there's a crazy mickey-mouse-head-shaped bike or run course that doubles back on itself, it's possible that people can cheat and not be flagged by missing a wire. In that case we also have a script to list the fastest times for every intermediate segment. That's a bit harder to sleuth through but for example it'll show the time and pace/speed for the segment alongside the overall time and pace/speed for the discipline. So if somebody has the 30th fastest segment and the 400th fastest run overall it'll make you wonder. But then what? If they have a Kona spot and they go from 7:30 miles to 6:00 miles to 8:00 miles I would probably DQ them and wait for the appeal. If they're MOP or BOP, honestly, I'll probably let it slide as long as they don't miss a wire and aren't anywhere close to a rolldown slot. And if it's a big 70.3 I probably won't get the chance to analyze those splits at all. So there's some rudimentary technology at work but it relies on the organization and insight of the timer. If somebody wants to design software or a script that will take an import of every single split time recorded during the race, analyze it and spit out a list of athletes whose pace variance in a discipline is higher than an agreed upon standard deviation, OK. It's easy to spit out the raw data, but you need to get the timing companies and RD's and race mgmt corp's to agree to it.

Sylvan Smyth | http://www.sportstats.us | sylvan@sportstats.us | Starvas
Last edited by: sylvan: Aug 31, 15 18:27
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sylvan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sylvan wrote:
Slowman wrote:
timing company people are very busy on race, day. their mandate is to get the results right, per the information at their disposal...
Yeah, but getting the results right includes not having people in the results who didn't do the full course. At the Ironman races we run a script intermittently once the finishers start coming in. It lists everybody who misses any of the timing wires on the course, at any time, all day. We then go through their race segment by segment to figure out what happened. They either get DQ'd right there or if it looks legit they get marked as OK. That's the one time the timer will do the DQ's and not wait for a ref or RD to do it. At the end of the night that script has to come up blank - either people are DQ'd or marked OK. That's the only way somebody with a missing split isn't flagged by that script. After the race Jimmy Riccitello gets a list of all the DQ's and he follows up. And if anybody doubts it, he does follow up - even if it's a plodder at the back of the pack. Jimmy emails and calls me all the time to ask for detailed timing information on DQ'd athletes or just to hash it out back and forth to make sure that we get it right. We both want all the short cutters out and everybody who does the full course in.

Dev mentioned that Marc told him that 5-10 athletes will get DQ'd on average at a given race. Usually it's at the low end there, but I've DQ'd up to 30! Seriously. In a full-on Ironman 70.3. How many of those get reinstated later? Usually zero. It ain't rocket surgery. If they're missing split times and their time from the split before to the split after is out of whack - faster than you'd expect based on the rest of their race - they get nuked. I'd be happy to reinstate somebody if they can produce a GPS file that shows that they did the whole course but that doesn't tend to happen. I've seen more bogus screen shots of somebody else's Garmin activity (two occasions, including T3 or course) than actual tcx/gpx files or links to a real GPS activity proving that somebody did the whole course (zero occasions). The chips we use don't miss many reads and if, for whatever reason, there is a miss, the running/cycling speed from before and after the miss will tell the tale. Usually they'll go out at 9 minute pace, finish at 11 minute pace, disappear for the middle split and would need to be going 7 minute pace for the time they disappear. It's rarely hard to figure out. There might be 1 of those on average at a race, sometimes none, sometimes it's ridiculous (cough, Miami). The most common anomalies are people who finish the race after failing to do a lap. I've had people finish IMAZ after one lap of the three lap run. In a busy race I don't bother putting much thought into a situation like that. Finish after 1-lap? DQ. If they email after the race saying they just wanted to DNF and give their chip back and would rather be a DNF than a DQ, I'll go look at Finisherpix and look for a pic of them posing with a medal. I'll switch them to a DNF if there isn't one. If there is one, they stay a DQ and Jimmy gets informed that they tried to get a DQ overturned despite posing for a finish pic with a medal. Don't even think about it!

OK, Vancouver 2014. Why no DQ for the athlete in question? I asked the timer and he couldn't clearly remember but it looks like he didn't have a wireless connection to the one split point on the bike course, so there was a delay getting the times from there. In his defense, that Vancouver race is a tough day. Look at the list of events: Long Distance (70.3) @ 6:30 am; Aqua Bike @ 6:30 am; Olympic @ 7:30 am; Sprint @ 8:04 am. So there's a lot to do and by the time he downloads the split times from the bike he's probably already printing awards and putting out whatever other fires have popped up. He'd check for missing laps on the bike, but wouldn't have necessarily checked for fast laps. That race was using the older ChampionChip technology which is not conducive to multiple bike splits, so there was only the one, in a parking lot at the start of each lap. If there was one at the far end of each loop, the two shortcut laps would have had a missed read and a more obvious DQ situation. Lacking that, the reason that ugly text file has a ranking position for each split is so that you can easily scan up and down the full list of results looking for single digits where there shouldn't be single digits. Like those two anomalous 1st place bike splits which should have meant insta-DQ. So, no doubt, we should have caught that one. If there's a situation like a 2-lap in-water swim with no exit for lap timing, or if there's a crazy mickey-mouse-head-shaped bike or run course that doubles back on itself, it's possible that people can cheat and not be flagged by missing a wire. In that case we also have a script to list the fastest times for every intermediate segment. That's a bit harder to sleuth through but for example it'll show the time and pace/speed for the segment alongside the overall time and pace/speed for the discipline. So if somebody has the 30th fastest segment and the 400th fastest run overall it'll make you wonder. But then what? If they have a Kona spot and they go from 7:30 miles to 6:00 miles to 8:00 miles I would probably DQ them and wait for the appeal. If they're MOP or BOP, honestly, I'll probably let it slide as long as they don't miss a wire and aren't anywhere close to a rolldown slot. And if it's a big 70.3 I probably won't get the chance to analyze those splits at all. So there's some rudimentary technology at work but it relies on the organization and insight of the timer. If somebody wants to design software or a script that will take an import of every single split time recorded during the race, analyze it and spit out a list of athletes whose pace variance in a discipline is higher than an agreed upon standard deviation, OK. It's easy to spit out the raw data, but you need to get the timing companies and RD's and race mgmt corp's to agree to it.

Good stuff. There's a lot of WTC races nowadays and you and your very strict and thorough process cannot be at all of them. Nor Jimmy. You need to standardize/productize this methodology so that all WTC timers follow the same regimen. Also, I like the "when in doubt, DQ and wait for the appeal" approach.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sylvan] [ In reply to ]
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I guess the big mistake the likes of JM and Mark Robson made were cheating too well, winning races and getting lots of attention. Mark went from a 35 min 70.3 swim split to a 22 min swim split the year after, recording the fastest swim split of all AGs which won him an award.. neither would have been caught if they'd kept a lower profile and recorded more plausible times. Which makes you wonder, how many cheats are out there "flying under the radar" finishing 5th, 6th in their AG and no-one notices/cares?
Last edited by: zedzded: Aug 31, 15 18:54
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
A number of you have shown interest in helping to defray legal costs Slowtwitch might incur associated with this issue. I’m flattered. I appreciate the gesture, but we will fight this battle ourselves and bear our own legal costs. Thank you all.

Dan, if you do decide to write a piece about this, I have a few friends who are very much involved in the BC triathlon scene and have been told there were serious questions about her for years apparently. They even have race photographs from a MTB race where she "lost" her number to hide the fact she didn't complete laps. They are also friends with James who did the initial sleuthing. Julie is being DQ'ed from other local events and her local community is very much aware of what has happened. I think you would receive a lot of supports if you did sleuth further, assuming the litigation risk is manageable.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, GARMIN, Ceepo, Smith Optics, Boom Nutrition, SpeedFil, FuelBelt, SCYS, L3 Endurance Coaching
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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Bryancd wrote:
Slowman wrote:
A number of you have shown interest in helping to defray legal costs Slowtwitch might incur associated with this issue. I’m flattered. I appreciate the gesture, but we will fight this battle ourselves and bear our own legal costs. Thank you all.


Dan, if you do decide to write a piece about this, I have a few friends who are very much involved in the BC triathlon scene and have been told there were serious questions about her for years apparently. They even have race photographs from a MTB race where she "lost" her number to hide the fact she didn't complete laps. They are also friends with James who did the initial sleuthing. Julie is being DQ'ed from other local events and her local community is very much aware of what has happened. I think you would receive a lot of supports if you did sleuth further, assuming the litigation risk is manageable.



This unfortunate competitor was the only rider out of 1300 competitors to "lose" their race number.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
to you last 3 gents: Ty, kny, and aahchon. as well as others who feel as you do...

i note that a number of people who live in BC and who participated on this thread early on are not participating now. i don't know why, but it might be that they got the same love note i did from ms. miller's attorney, with the threat of litigation if i didn't excise and keep off the site much or most or the meaningful discussion on this topic. i'm now several thousand dollars into this, so that this thread can continue.

there has been at least 1 thread on this up on site continually since this story first broke. there will continue to be a thread. we are now in the neighborhood of 700 posts on this. this thread remains, notwithstanding the demand that it be gone entirely, or censored with a much heavier hand that i am using. this is an issue that threatens to erode confidence in our sport. this is an important topic. i'm willing to accept a certain degree of expense and peril to allow you all the freedom to discuss something that threatens to unravel the fabric of fair play.

finally, we do have an attachment to decency, fairness and civility on this forum, always have. before i pull any posts on these threads i try always to ask myself whether i would moderate this thread the same if there were no lawyers looking over all our shoulders right now. i hope the answer is in each case yes. just, i'm fain to allow a line of reasoning that, when followed to its terminus, may implicate an additional person, notwithstanding the fact that you are certain there was a second gunman on the grassy knoll.

i doubt you 3 are interested in splitting the legal bill 4 ways. i therefore ask that you filter your criticism of my moderation through the prism of the new check i write every day so that we can continue to discuss an important issue.

I am the guy that posted on the previous (now hidden) thread about witnessing course cutting on the run portion of the Vancouver Half. I haven't received any communication from a lawyer. Everything I posted was an honest and accurate recollection of the events as I saw them and I would be willing to share the details again if there was a need to. However, I didn't feel the need to post again on this thread because, by the time the other thread was removed, the Vancouver results had been corrected and I didn't have any further information relevant to other races or results. Obviously, what I witnessed could only be used as "evidence" in relation to the Vancouver race, and not used to make inferences about what happened at other events. That said, I believe the Vancouver race results were adjusted due to the anomaly in the bike splits, not due to any run infractions. Still, I will stand by my version of events knowing that truth is a complete defense to any allegation of defamation.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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I reported her to British Triathlon Federation when we got back from China. They (BTF) logged a complaint with ITU, I didn't hear anything since. I have now contacted them again in light of the recent events. If this girl did only run 3 laps of a 4 lap course, then she robbed 3 girls who trained incredibly hard for a World Championship event, not to mention the effort and cost of travel, etc. to get there to compete on a fair playing field. You just have to look at the timings to see that there is foul play. I remember seeing her on the run (you know who you're racing) and she certainly wasn't going at any great stick that was like 'wow'.

Anyway did she back it up in 2015 ITU Long Course? I believe shuffled over the finish line in 39th place, whilst 2nd place in China (the true defending World Champion?) got off the bike in 15th place and ran herself into 4th place!!!

If you look at the performance of the 1st and 2nd competitors over a half marathon, and 3rd for that matter 2nd and 3rd are consistently knocking out 1hr 30min and 1:40min halfs, as for the 1st place competitor, from result history the best performance over that distance is well short of 1hr 30min... I think anyone who runs knows it's hard to shave minutes off a PB fresh, let alone 10-20mins after a 4km swim and a hard 120km bike leg is 'unlikely?'.

As an eye-witness, the woo-ha this girl created at the finish line to get her podium was incredible, applying pressure on the organisers, I think there was mention of a faulty timing chip or something - they folded. The British contingent didn't contest too much at the time as you expect and rely on the integrity in your competitors and it was only looking back at the results (which were released much later in the day) that it was evident that something didn't stack up.

Disgraceful behaviour.
Last edited by: Newts: Sep 1, 15 0:26
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
Which makes you wonder, how many cheats are out there "flying under the radar" finishing 5th, 6th in their AG and no-one notices/cares?

I'm starting to believe there are a ton of them. After thinking about this issue I was thinking back to the race I very nearly cut the course myself. Full xxxxxman in 20xx. 4 lap run, only around 60 people in the race, no timing mat anywhere except the start of each lap. So I went to look at the results. A woman I trained with also did the race. During the race she was gaining on me fast. For over a decade I have had these results and never thought twice about it. Today I noticed that after a 7:29 bike split she ran a 3:46 marathon. 3rd fastest of the day, fastest woman by 8 minutes, 18 minutes faster than the third fastest woman. 20 minutes faster than a standalone marathon she did 2 months later. I'm now pretty sure she cut each lap out in the dark corn field lined roads where no one was around (seriously, it could have been the setting of a horror movie), she gained about the same amount on me every lap. So if people are willing to cheat in what had to be the saddest full ironman length race ever, what race would they not cheat in?

We are so fucked.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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Several years ago, in a half in France (a B at the time) there were 3 guys chasing me for a bit on a run course that was key shaped. No one passed me, and just as I run down the finish, they were all there running down about 400m ahead of me, just outside the top 10. I said something to the RD, to no avail. But I told them what I thought and they just smirked. I've also seen on at least 2 occasions, people disappearing on a multi loop course to only reappear later, still on the same pace. I think that's actually a very very common occurrence.

-------------------------------------------

http://www.fmcoaching.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
Slowman wrote:
A number of you have shown interest in helping to defray legal costs Slowtwitch might incur associated with this issue. I’m flattered. I appreciate the gesture, but we will fight this battle ourselves and bear our own legal costs. Thank you all.


Dan, if you do decide to write a piece about this, I have a few friends who are very much involved in the BC triathlon scene and have been told there were serious questions about her for years apparently. They even have race photographs from a MTB race where she "lost" her number to hide the fact she didn't complete laps. They are also friends with James who did the initial sleuthing. Julie is being DQ'ed from other local events and her local community is very much aware of what has happened. I think you would receive a lot of supports if you did sleuth further, assuming the litigation risk is manageable.




This unfortunate competitor was the only rider out of 1300 competitors to "lose" their race number.


Was that at this race, where she knocked 25 minutes off her previous year's time, won her age group by over 12 minutes, and the next three AG places were separated by less than 3 minutes?

http://www.webscorer.com/...=153302&gender=F
Last edited by: Kay Serrar: Sep 1, 15 5:19
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
zedzded wrote:
Which makes you wonder, how many cheats are out there "flying under the radar" finishing 5th, 6th in their AG and no-one notices/cares?


I'm starting to believe there are a ton of them. After thinking about this issue I was thinking back to the race I very nearly cut the course myself. Full xxxxxman in 20xx. 4 lap run, only around 60 people in the race, no timing mat anywhere except the start of each lap. So I went to look at the results. A woman I trained with also did the race. During the race she was gaining on me fast. For over a decade I have had these results and never thought twice about it. Today I noticed that after a 7:29 bike split she ran a 3:46 marathon. 3rd fastest of the day, fastest woman by 8 minutes, 18 minutes faster than the third fastest woman. 20 minutes faster than a standalone marathon she did 2 months later. I'm now pretty sure she cut each lap out in the dark corn field lined roads where no one was around (seriously, it could have been the setting of a horror movie), she gained about the same amount on me every lap. So if people are willing to cheat in what had to be the saddest full ironman length race ever, what race would they not cheat in?

I see it every year at the Deer Creek Oly in Ohio. Two loops on the bike, which includes a short out and back into the transition area, then back onto the course. Always repass somebody that I've already passed once, usually just a bit after going through the out and back myself. It's clearly marked, and it's always mentioned in the pre-race meeting. But there is no timing mat there. So, if people are willing to cheat in local Oly race, I'm not surprised that there are many that will cheat at longer distances. I do appreciate the number of timing mats WTC races have...I don't see how you could cheat on the run, for example, at IM Wisconsin...timing mats everywhere, especially at every turn around point.

Spot

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [spot] [ In reply to ]
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If the rules around having a chip are not enforced, then the timing mat placement means very little.

I agree that WTC does a great job with the mat placement, but any situation where an athlete is able to contest their way to a position with no timing data to support it needs to stop. The policy should be black and white when it comes to this. In almost any race, you can pick up a back up chip in transition if you lost it on the bike or swim. The notion that you lose it while running is pretty far fetched. Although possible, I would say it is incumbent on the participant to be aware enough to keep the chip in their possession for at minimum the run course and through the finish.
Last edited by: SasquatchRuns: Sep 1, 15 5:46
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
So if people are willing to cheat in what had to be the saddest full ironman length race ever, what race would they not cheat in?

when my daughter was running cross country in HS, I recall watching many runners cutting the course on certain courses, each year without fail. Especially where the 'out' & 'back' paths were close together and they could easily hop from the out to the back. Usually this was the BOP runners, who just want to finish. But not always. The number of runners who did it was quite surprising to me at the time.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [BrianB] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
“What I can tell you is that I know the race I ran throughout the whole course,” she said in an email. “I know how I performed and the training that went into that performance, and I am confident in the results as they were originally announced. I am an athlete, a mom and community member who lives by strong values. I am grateful to those who know me as a person of integrity, and who have remained strongly supportive of me.” - See more at: http://www.squamishchief.com/...sthash.s423qGSR.dpuf
Did anyone else catch the unnecessary "throughout" in her statement? Didn't claim to run the whole course, but throughout the whole course...


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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You mean just like Lance used to quote 'I've never tested positive' rather than the ouright denial of all wrongdoing.

Yep.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sylvan] [ In reply to ]
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sylvan wrote:
Slowman wrote:
timing company people are very busy on race, day. their mandate is to get the results right, per the information at their disposal...
Yeah, but getting the results right includes not having people in the results who didn't do the full course. At the Ironman races we run a script intermittently once the finishers start coming in. It lists everybody who misses any of the timing wires on the course, at any time, all day. We then go through their race segment by segment to figure out what happened. They either get DQ'd right there or if it looks legit they get marked as OK. That's the one time the timer will do the DQ's and not wait for a ref or RD to do it. At the end of the night that script has to come up blank - either people are DQ'd or marked OK. That's the only way somebody with a missing split isn't flagged by that script. After the race Jimmy Riccitello gets a list of all the DQ's and he follows up. And if anybody doubts it, he does follow up - even if it's a plodder at the back of the pack. Jimmy emails and calls me all the time to ask for detailed timing information on DQ'd athletes or just to hash it out back and forth to make sure that we get it right. We both want all the short cutters out and everybody who does the full course in.

Dev mentioned that Marc told him that 5-10 athletes will get DQ'd on average at a given race. Usually it's at the low end there, but I've DQ'd up to 30! Seriously. In a full-on Ironman 70.3. How many of those get reinstated later? Usually zero. It ain't rocket surgery. If they're missing split times and their time from the split before to the split after is out of whack - faster than you'd expect based on the rest of their race - they get nuked. I'd be happy to reinstate somebody if they can produce a GPS file that shows that they did the whole course but that doesn't tend to happen. I've seen more bogus screen shots of somebody else's Garmin activity (two occasions, including T3 of course) than actual tcx/gpx files or links to a real GPS activity proving that somebody did the whole course (zero occasions). The chips we use don't miss many reads and if, for whatever reason, there is a miss, the running/cycling speed from before and after the miss will tell the tale. Usually they'll go out at 9 minute pace, finish at 11 minute pace, disappear for the middle split and would need to be going 7 minute pace for the time they disappear. It's rarely hard to figure out. There might be 1 of those on average at a race, sometimes none, sometimes it's ridiculous (cough, Miami). The most common anomalies are people who finish the race after failing to do a lap. I've had people finish IMAZ after one lap of the three lap run. In a busy race I don't bother putting much thought into a situation like that. Finish after 1-lap? DQ. If they email after the race saying they just wanted to DNF and give their chip back and would rather be a DNF than a DQ, I'll go look at Finisherpix and look for a pic of them posing with a medal. I'll switch them to a DNF if there isn't one. If there is one, they stay a DQ and Jimmy gets informed that they tried to get a DQ overturned despite posing for a finish pic with a medal. Don't even think about it!

OK, Vancouver 2014. Why no DQ for the athlete in question? I asked the timer and he couldn't clearly remember but it looks like he didn't have a wireless connection to the one split point on the bike course, so there was a delay getting the times from there. In his defense, that Vancouver race is a tough day. Look at the list of events: Long Distance (70.3) @ 6:30 am; Aqua Bike @ 6:30 am; Olympic @ 7:30 am; Sprint @ 8:04 am. So there's a lot to do and by the time he downloads the split times from the bike he's probably already printing awards and putting out whatever other fires have popped up. He'd check for missing laps on the bike, but wouldn't have necessarily checked for fast laps. That race was using the older ChampionChip technology which is not conducive to multiple bike splits, so there was only the one, in a parking lot at the start of each lap. If there was one at the far end of each loop, the two shortcut laps would have had a missed read and a more obvious DQ situation. Lacking that, the reason that ugly text file has a ranking position for each split is so that you can easily scan up and down the full list of results looking for single digits where there shouldn't be single digits. Like those two anomalous 1st place bike splits which should have meant insta-DQ. So, no doubt, we should have caught that one. If there's a situation like a 2-lap in-water swim with no exit for lap timing, or if there's a crazy mickey-mouse-head-shaped bike or run course that doubles back on itself, it's possible that people can cheat and not be flagged by missing a wire. In that case we also have a script to list the fastest times for every intermediate segment. That's a bit harder to sleuth through but for example it'll show the time and pace/speed for the segment alongside the overall time and pace/speed for the discipline. So if somebody has the 30th fastest segment and the 400th fastest run overall it'll make you wonder. But then what? If they have a Kona spot and they go from 7:30 miles to 6:00 miles to 8:00 miles I would probably DQ them and wait for the appeal. If they're MOP or BOP, honestly, I'll probably let it slide as long as they don't miss a wire and aren't anywhere close to a rolldown slot. And if it's a big 70.3 I probably won't get the chance to analyze those splits at all. So there's some rudimentary technology at work but it relies on the organization and insight of the timer. If somebody wants to design software or a script that will take an import of every single split time recorded during the race, analyze it and spit out a list of athletes whose pace variance in a discipline is higher than an agreed upon standard deviation, OK. It's easy to spit out the raw data, but you need to get the timing companies and RD's and race mgmt corp's to agree to it.

Thanks for a great explanation. You mentioned that your chips don't miss many reads - is there a expected failure rate? (1 missed read for every 500 racers, for example?) Julie Miller and Mike Rossi seem to base their claims on a "it's not my fault" defense, but I think the statistics tell a much different story.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [NJSteve] [ In reply to ]
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Hi NJSteve,

I believe Sylvan uses MyLaps active chips. This means that there is a battery in the chip that emanates a signal to the RFID reader. This is called active RFID. Most timing companies use passive RFID, which means that the RFID reader looks for chips to come into the electrical field and register. The active system is very near 100% capture of data. I would be surprised if they miss one time stamp in all of the segments of a triathlon. Where the active and passive systems really differentiate is the swim data capture. I believe all passive timing systems have some degree of difficulty making that swim read, due to water on the chip. With active systems, the problem of water on the chip is eliminated, as the battery is emanating a signal.

Passive systems generally read well over 99%, often above 99.8%.

For this and many other reasons, Sportstat is the top timing company in the world.

Thanks!

Mark

SecondWindTiming.com
Triathlon and Running Race Timing
Athletic Event Management
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [themuse1] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you -- impressive (and telling).
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [themuse1] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty much the same system used at Paris Marathon. In 2011, a newspaper had published the stats and reported that 486 runners had been disqualified for cheating (cutting the course).
The article had been taken down soon after.

-------------------------------------------

http://www.fmcoaching.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tonythetriguy wrote:
Quote:

“What I can tell you is that I know the race I ran throughout the whole course,” she said in an email. “I know how I performed and the training that went into that performance, and I am confident in the results as they were originally announced. I am an athlete, a mom and community member who lives by strong values. I am grateful to those who know me as a person of integrity, and who have remained strongly supportive of me.” - See more at: http://www.squamishchief.com/...sthash.s423qGSR.dpuf

Did anyone else catch the unnecessary "throughout" in her statement? Didn't claim to run the whole course, but throughout the whole course...

Maybe she meant this:

"What I can tell you is that I know the race I ran threw out the whole course,”
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tonythetriguy wrote:
Quote:

Did anyone else catch the unnecessary "throughout" in her statement? Didn't claim to run the whole course, but throughout the whole course...

Yes. Sounds like she dancing through parts here and there. Very sneaky. A very weird statement in what she didn't say. She is confident of her training. Really?

What does that have to do with the fact that she cheated and didn't complete the course. And lost her chip.
Last edited by: Ty: Sep 1, 15 7:44
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
A number of you have shown interest in helping to defray legal costs Slowtwitch might incur associated with this issue. I’m flattered. I appreciate the gesture, but we will fight this battle ourselves and bear our own legal costs. Thank you all.

Dan, if ever you do change your mind, I would certainly contribute. But that's not the main reason I am posting here.

If she decides to go after other STers, that have only posted facts, I would certainly be willing to contribute to helping them. I can't speak for others but I am sure many others would as well. If the likes of JayPee get bullied with lawyers, I suspect the ST community will stand up. I think she made a big mistake lawyering up. She may want to reconsider that strategy.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
to no one in particular:

i attempted to hide a post and hid the fruit of these posts as well, which turned out to be a number of recent posts. very sorry about that. unfortunately it is not possible to reattach it. very sorry about that. none of you wrote anything wrong. just my mistake.

Dan,
one of my posts was deleted where I said I was running through the numbers on the Ironman Canada 2013 run. I believe the existing data, publicly available, should be sufficient to clear/condemn that run.

Finisher pics run photos give you bib numbers of people before and after her, and those bib numbers have run splits. Combine the two and you can see when people should be intersecting each other on course, and this should allow you to reconstruct virtual splits for JM (within a margin of error). I've started with ~5 bibs before and after for each different run photo location (about 5 of those). If the results are inconclusive more bib numbers might be needed. From this we should be able to construct a narrative for the run (or eliminate possibilities).

Time stamps and location of the photos would help, but isn't necessary. Maybe that info could be used later to verify my analysis.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure if any of you had followed the thread that started at Let's Run a day ago, but it looks like that one has now been pulled.


http://www.letsrun.com/...d.php?thread=6724919
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [spot] [ In reply to ]
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spot wrote:
j p o wrote:
zedzded wrote:
Which makes you wonder, how many cheats are out there "flying under the radar" finishing 5th, 6th in their AG and no-one notices/cares?


I'm starting to believe there are a ton of them. After thinking about this issue I was thinking back to the race I very nearly cut the course myself. Full xxxxxman in 20xx. 4 lap run, only around 60 people in the race, no timing mat anywhere except the start of each lap. So I went to look at the results. A woman I trained with also did the race. During the race she was gaining on me fast. For over a decade I have had these results and never thought twice about it. Today I noticed that after a 7:29 bike split she ran a 3:46 marathon. 3rd fastest of the day, fastest woman by 8 minutes, 18 minutes faster than the third fastest woman. 20 minutes faster than a standalone marathon she did 2 months later. I'm now pretty sure she cut each lap out in the dark corn field lined roads where no one was around (seriously, it could have been the setting of a horror movie), she gained about the same amount on me every lap. So if people are willing to cheat in what had to be the saddest full ironman length race ever, what race would they not cheat in?


I see it every year at the Deer Creek Oly in Ohio. Two loops on the bike, which includes a short out and back into the transition area, then back onto the course. Always repass somebody that I've already passed once, usually just a bit after going through the out and back myself. It's clearly marked, and it's always mentioned in the pre-race meeting. But there is no timing mat there. So, if people are willing to cheat in local Oly race, I'm not surprised that there are many that will cheat at longer distances. I do appreciate the number of timing mats WTC races have...I don't see how you could cheat on the run, for example, at IM Wisconsin...timing mats everywhere, especially at every turn around point.

Spot

Same venue, same RD. It was also the same venue and RD for one of the famous Twitch hunts (Newbz maybe?) There might be a pattern here.

We are so fucked.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sylvan] [ In reply to ]
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Wow! Thanks for that. I would not have thought that you guys would have the time to go to those lengths to catch "bad results". I definitely like looking for race photos of them proudly showing off their finishers medal. That's awesome.

There is a fine line with this stuff. There are definitely people cutting the course to gain an advantage, and there are people who get lost, and there are people who can't count loops, and there are people who quit, but still cross the finish line, and there might be a very small number of people who have very oddball pacing or other issues that cause weird splits. I applaud your approach of DQing people based on the evidence and letting them appeal, and I am very happy that there haven't been any appeals. There is a bit of "guilty before proven innocent", but it seems that very few, if any, innocent people are getting caught out.

I have always thought it would be very hard to prove actual cheating, even if another athlete sees someone cut the course, the referees can't just take their word for it, just like giving penalties for drafting on another athletes word. I am not even sure you could take a volunteers word for it. I have always thought that the cheater would have to get caught by an 'official', or admit to cheating.

.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [SasquatchRuns] [ In reply to ]
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SasquatchRuns wrote:
If the rules around having a chip are not enforced, then the timing mat placement means very little.

I agree that WTC does a great job with the mat placement, but any situation where an athlete is able to contest their way to a position with no timing data to support it needs to stop. The policy should be black and white when it comes to this. In almost any race, you can pick up a back up chip in transition if you lost it on the bike or swim. The notion that you lose it while running is pretty far fetched. Although possible, I would say it is incumbent on the participant to be aware enough to keep the chip in their possession for at minimum the run course and through the finish.

This is the solution. If you really did happen to lose your chip, then your garmin/gps data is the only thing that can keep you from getting DQ'd.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sylvan] [ In reply to ]
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Sylvan - on chip reliability, not trying to re-direct this thread but what is the backup plan for a rolling start race if the chip does not read? How do you verify where a person started the swim at x:xx:xx in that situation? I realize that chips and scanners are very reliable but if a chip fails to register when you cross the mat surrounded by other competitors as you head into the water, there is no way for you (the competitor) to know that the chip did not register. Finding out after you finish the race that there was no start time would be devastating.

On the cheater side, a rolling start must open up a range of opportunities to circumvent the system in the absence of a backup verification system such as video of competitors entering swim with timestamp, etc. Especially for wetsuit swims where the chip (or absence thererof) is concealed underneath neoprene.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
to you last 3 gents: Ty, kny, and aahchon. as well as others who feel as you do...

i note that a number of people who live in BC and who participated on this thread early on are not participating now. i don't know why, but it might be that they got the same love note i did from ms. miller's attorney, with the threat of litigation if i didn't excise and keep off the site much or most or the meaningful discussion on this topic. i'm now several thousand dollars into this, so that this thread can continue.

there has been at least 1 thread on this up on site continually since this story first broke. there will continue to be a thread. we are now in the neighborhood of 700 posts on this. this thread remains, notwithstanding the demand that it be gone entirely, or censored with a much heavier hand that i am using. this is an issue that threatens to erode confidence in our sport. this is an important topic. i'm willing to accept a certain degree of expense and peril to allow you all the freedom to discuss something that threatens to unravel the fabric of fair play.

finally, we do have an attachment to decency, fairness and civility on this forum, always have. before i pull any posts on these threads i try always to ask myself whether i would moderate this thread the same if there were no lawyers looking over all our shoulders right now. i hope the answer is in each case yes. just, i'm fain to allow a line of reasoning that, when followed to its terminus, may implicate an additional person, notwithstanding the fact that you are certain there was a second gunman on the grassy knoll.

i doubt you 3 are interested in splitting the legal bill 4 ways. i therefore ask that you filter your criticism of my moderation through the prism of the new check i write every day so that we can continue to discuss an important issue.

I was "sort of active" in the initial stages of the first thread I am from BC (about 3 hours from Whistler) and not anonymous. I took special interest in that thread because my SO was first in that AG the past 2 years but dropped out this year. We have a few other FOP women in that and other AG's. We also know of or maybe know the 4th woman enough to say hi at races and enough to look at her results as well as JM before the race just to see how things are "stacking up" before hand.

For me the thread was over when the evidence was clear and appropriate action was taken, after a while when it moved to the "phsycology of cheating" etc, I moved on….I thought that line of debate was not for me. Who cares really? Basically take 30 cheaters at 30 different races and you will have likely 30 different individual motivations for cheating…for me (just my opinion) the "why" of this is more LR stuff.

Having said that the big question for me now is what sanctions will apply? It appears that businesses have gotten out in front of this and taken immediate action…or appropriate action once things were eventually clear (WTC, Sportstats, her coach) but the federations (Trican and TriBC) are likely wringing their hands and having meetings etc about what to do with this athlete?

I haven't been contacted by any legal types regarding this.

Maurice

http://www.multisportsolutions.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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Living in the area (Metro Vancouver) and knowing people in that age group, I am watching this to see what action is taken by Trican and TriBC. It is in my view that someone needs to step up and address this issue. I hope in the near future that we see both Trican and TriBC publicly addressing this issue. As others have mentioned, why the person cheated IMO is not significant but how we can move forward and reduce these types of issues is what I want to know.


AERO & LIGHT is RIGHT

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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [jet black] [ In reply to ]
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jet black wrote:
This is the solution. .

I propose a different solution, and since WTC/USAT/sylvan and other may be reading, maybe something will come of this.

Apparently, the pros now race with the little box that tracks them all day, would it be that hard to tell racers at check in: welcome, if you want to race for a Kona slot, you need to pay an extra $20 to carry around this little box to track you all day. As an added bonus, you get to start in the KQ Mass Start. That way all you guys that are racing for the KQ will know where you stand when you pass one another on course. In addition, your chip strap is a different color than the non wave start people. So there, everyone that is racing to "complete" can have their race and do the rolling start and not sweat if they are getting passed or not, everyone else that is trying to get the KQ will know exactly where they stand when someone with a red chip strap passes them and if any results are ever in question, just go to the fancy little tracking device.

I would pay more for this service and to know that I was in a race and not a quasi time trial where I may get nicked at the line by a guy that was 20 minutes in front or behind me that I literally never saw on race day.

Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [themuse1] [ In reply to ]
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themuse1 wrote:
Hi NJSteve,

I believe Sylvan uses MyLaps active chips. This means that there is a battery in the chip that emanates a signal to the RFID reader. This is called active RFID. Most timing companies use passive RFID, which means that the RFID reader looks for chips to come into the electrical field and register. The active system is very near 100% capture of data. I would be surprised if they miss one time stamp in all of the segments of a triathlon. Where the active and passive systems really differentiate is the swim data capture. I believe all passive timing systems have some degree of difficulty making that swim read, due to water on the chip. With active systems, the problem of water on the chip is eliminated, as the battery is emanating a signal.

Passive systems generally read well over 99%, often above 99.8%.

For this and many other reasons, Sportstat is the top timing company in the world.

Thanks!

Mark
You know, I haven't seen evidence of anyone doing this, but RFID cloning isn't completely out of reach, either. Locksmiths clone RFID units in car keys. If you had that sort of thing (multiple identical racing chips), a friend could hit a touchpad for you at the far end of the course and, short of photo evidence, you'd have a "clean" time result.

Just another reason to have multiple means of verification and not rely on a single technology.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Jim Martin] [ In reply to ]
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Jim Martin wrote:
jet black wrote:
This is the solution. .


I propose a different solution, and since WTC/USAT/sylvan and other may be reading, maybe something will come of this.

Apparently, the pros now race with the little box that tracks them all day, would it be that hard to tell racers at check in: welcome, if you want to race for a Kona slot, you need to pay an extra $20 to carry around this little box to track you all day. As an added bonus, you get to start in the KQ Mass Start. That way all you guys that are racing for the KQ will know where you stand when you pass one another on course. In addition, your chip strap is a different color than the non wave start people. So there, everyone that is racing to "complete" can have their race and do the rolling start and not sweat if they are getting passed or not, everyone else that is trying to get the KQ will know exactly where they stand when someone with a red chip strap passes them and if any results are ever in question, just go to the fancy little tracking device.

I would pay more for this service and to know that I was in a race and not a quasi time trial where I may get nicked at the line by a guy that was 20 minutes in front or behind me that I literally never saw on race day.

I love everything about your solution! The mass start, the different color straps to know who is racing and who isn't, and it would be great if the tracker would update a website that our family and friends could track us on. I would pay extra for that too. Heck, I've bought the myathletelive box 3 times just for the tracker.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [SasquatchRuns] [ In reply to ]
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SasquatchRuns wrote:
If the rules around having a chip are not enforced, then the timing mat placement means very little.

I agree that WTC does a great job with the mat placement, but any situation where an athlete is able to contest their way to a position with no timing data to support it needs to stop. The policy should be black and white when it comes to this. In almost any race, you can pick up a back up chip in transition if you lost it on the bike or swim. The notion that you lose it while running is pretty far fetched. Although possible, I would say it is incumbent on the participant to be aware enough to keep the chip in their possession for at minimum the run course and through the finish.

I don't disagree with anything you wrote. I think that the no chip=no time rule should be strictly enforced, and blatant cheaters should face suspensions and bans similar to doping. For some reason, I find cheating like this even more unpalatable than doping, although I can't really say why.

Spot

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [spot] [ In reply to ]
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spot wrote:
SasquatchRuns wrote:
If the rules around having a chip are not enforced, then the timing mat placement means very little.

I agree that WTC does a great job with the mat placement, but any situation where an athlete is able to contest their way to a position with no timing data to support it needs to stop. The policy should be black and white when it comes to this. In almost any race, you can pick up a back up chip in transition if you lost it on the bike or swim. The notion that you lose it while running is pretty far fetched. Although possible, I would say it is incumbent on the participant to be aware enough to keep the chip in their possession for at minimum the run course and through the finish.


I don't disagree with anything you wrote. I think that the no chip=no time rule should be strictly enforced, and blatant cheaters should face suspensions and bans similar to doping. For some reason, I find cheating like this even more unpalatable than doping, although I can't really say why.

Spot

I always thought, with doping, you still have to put in some sort of training. Course-cutting, you just go ahead and do it.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [spot] [ In reply to ]
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spot wrote:
For some reason, I find cheating like this even more unpalatable than doping, although I can't really say why.

Spot

I thought about this a bunch because in MY subconscious, it is worse than doping . The only thing I can come up (and it doesn't make much sense) is that at least the dopers are doing the actual race, sure they cheat, but they are cheating to improve fitness (illegally) so that they can cover the proscribed distances faster than anyone else. That is to say, they are still actually racing to run swim/bike/run faster than anyone else out there.

Someone that cuts the course intentionally doesn't even honor the sport or the event enough to actually perform the minimum requirement (2.4/112/26.2). They are even cheating the cheaters.

Doping is wrong, but it doesn't alleviate you of the necessity to train and work and risk injury and suffer. It just makes you faster for doing all that stuff. If you are going to cheat in the course cutting fashion, imagine how much easier training would be. No need to worry about dropping that 5 extra pounds, I am only going to run 15 miles instead of 26 on race day. No need to wake up at 4:00am to get that long trainer session in, I am only going to ride 90 miles on race day when everyone else rides 112. Everyone else is doing that work to get that fitness, the cutter doesn't need to do the work or get the fitness, they are only getting the results.

To me, the dopers are cheating by sacrificing their health for results and robbing people that refuse to make that poor decision. People that course cut aren't sacrificing anything to go faster, they are just screwing everyone that actually covers the prescribed distance.

Like I said, it doesn't really make much sense when written out, but subconsciously that's how it shakes out for me.

Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [walie] [ In reply to ]
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walie wrote:
spot wrote:
For some reason, I find cheating like this even more unpalatable than doping, although I can't really say why.


I always thought, with doping, you still have to put in some sort of training. Course-cutting, you just go ahead and do it.

I'd say that this individual did "put in some sort of training" - not enough to garner the results she wanted, obviously, but she isn't untrained.

I'd opine that course cutting rankles our ire because it happens "as we race" whereas doping occurs behind the scenes, before you step on course. The doper has at least "completed" the Ironman, whereas the course cutter is claiming something that they didn't do.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Jim Martin] [ In reply to ]
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While I fully agree that cutting the course is pathetic...

I find this more disturbing:

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Since news of the disqualification, Miller said she has received “anonymous threatening emails and phone calls to my house.”

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
While I fully agree that cutting the course is pathetic...

I find this more disturbing:

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Since news of the disqualification, Miller said she has received “anonymous threatening emails and phone calls to my house.”

Because someone would call & email her threats, or because she would claim that someone did? ;-)

____________________________________________
Don Larkin
http://steelcityendurance.com/
http://www.reachmultisport.com/
USAT Lvl1 Coach, NSCA-CPT, TRX Qualified (Standard & Sports Medicine)
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I find this more disturbing:
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Since news of the disqualification, Miller said she has received “anonymous threatening emails and phone calls to my house.”
I have a very hard time believing anything Ms Miller claims. This quote from her friend
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but I will always stand up for bullying and cyber terrorizing of others. - http://www.kristaguloien.net/...77dc0cf24e84f75b03ef
is funny, not just because I'm sure she meant against, not for, but because she calls it cyber terrorizing! Now I'm sure it is terrifying to Julie that her cheating has been uncovered, but to claim cyber bullying and terrorizing, I'm not buying it. Mike Rossi claimed the same thing and used it as an excuse to pull all social media. I guess there is a chance some wacko has sent threatening messages, but like her results, she needs to show proof for people to take her seriously ever again...


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Even if she showed something you still wouldn't believe it as it's anonymous.

I am not saying that she's definitely telling the truth but I don't find it hard to believe that some idiots would do this.

And if true, I am disturbed by it.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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Given she apparently raised money from the local community to pay for some of her trips, I can see that there are some pretty pissed off people out there. I don't condone their actions if so, but I can see that more than just the people she cheated on the race course may be upset.

In her shoes I'm not sure how I would try to handle this. As Lance did for so long, denial seems to be the easiest way forward, but maybe as she comes to realize that everyone KNOWS she cheated, and given the fund-raising aspect to this also, she may want to chose the 'admission and apology' route as a better way to move forward with her life, certainly if she wants to remain in the same community. People are generally quite forgiving, as long as you admit your faults and apologise to those you've wronged.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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it just occurred to me that she's probably (definitely) reading this thread
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [y_nigel] [ In reply to ]
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And so is her lawyer ;)
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [spankybc] [ In reply to ]
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not sure why it never crossed my mind - then i googled her name and a word that rhymes with 'meat' and slowtwitch threads came up.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Can you explain why you are having to fork out money for legal representation? I'm generally curious as I guess I don't understand the law. Is she claiming defamation?

get comfortable being uncomfortable
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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attorneys typically counsel silence from their clients. my attorney is typical.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
Given she apparently raised money from the local community to pay for some of her trips, I can see that there are some pretty pissed off people out there. I don't condone their actions if so, but I can see that more than just the people she cheated on the race course may be upset.

In her shoes I'm not sure how I would try to handle this. As Lance did for so long, denial seems to be the easiest way forward, but maybe as she comes to realize that everyone KNOWS she cheated, and given the fund-raising aspect to this also, she may want to chose the 'admission and apology' route as a better way to move forward with her life, certainly if she wants to remain in the same community. People are generally quite forgiving, as long as you admit your faults and apologise to those you've wronged.

Agreed- most people are forgiving. What will remain in many people's mind though is "WTF were you thinking?" Sacrifice your job(s), husband, children, reputation, family for a trip to Kona?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [trifast99] [ In reply to ]
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trifast99 wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
Given she apparently raised money from the local community to pay for some of her trips, I can see that there are some pretty pissed off people out there. I don't condone their actions if so, but I can see that more than just the people she cheated on the race course may be upset.

In her shoes I'm not sure how I would try to handle this. As Lance did for so long, denial seems to be the easiest way forward, but maybe as she comes to realize that everyone KNOWS she cheated, and given the fund-raising aspect to this also, she may want to chose the 'admission and apology' route as a better way to move forward with her life, certainly if she wants to remain in the same community. People are generally quite forgiving, as long as you admit your faults and apologise to those you've wronged.


Agreed- most people are forgiving. What will remain in many people's mind though is "WTF were you thinking?" Sacrifice your job(s), husband, children, reputation, family for a trip to Kona?[/quote]

Ummm; rhetorical question (given the audience you are talking to)?



@CycleHeavy
Last edited by: TriMeSBR: Sep 1, 15 11:47
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I am absolutely amazed that this has escalated the way that it has

i'm not at all surprised that lawyers are now involved though

I am really curious to see if the relevant governing bodies are going to step in and take action or whether they are hoping that this will simply go away now that the kona slot issue has resolved itself?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
Given she apparently raised money from the local community to pay for some of her trips, I can see that there are some pretty pissed off people out there. I don't condone their actions if so, but I can see that more than just the people she cheated on the race course may be upset.

In her shoes I'm not sure how I would try to handle this. As Lance did for so long, denial seems to be the easiest way forward, but maybe as she comes to realize that everyone KNOWS she cheated, and given the fund-raising aspect to this also, she may want to chose the 'admission and apology' route as a better way to move forward with her life, certainly if she wants to remain in the same community. People are generally quite forgiving, as long as you admit your faults and apologise to those you've wronged.

IMO adding the fund raising dimension to her situation makes her transgressions even worse. I'm no lawyer but wonder if accepting money from people under false pretenses constitutes some kind of fraud, akin to folks who fake cancer and accepting money for their "treatments".

If her acceptance of those crowd funded donations is considered fraud, I would think that would be a major barrier (among many others) to JM coming clean about what really happened.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Overdistance] [ In reply to ]
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Overdistance wrote:
Sylvan - on chip reliability, not trying to re-direct this thread but what is the backup plan for a rolling start race if the chip does not read? How do you verify where a person started the swim at x:xx:xx in that situation? I realize that chips and scanners are very reliable but if a chip fails to register when you cross the mat surrounded by other competitors as you head into the water, there is no way for you (the competitor) to know that the chip did not register. Finding out after you finish the race that there was no start time would be devastating.

On the cheater side, a rolling start must open up a range of opportunities to circumvent the system in the absence of a backup verification system such as video of competitors entering swim with timestamp, etc. Especially for wetsuit swims where the chip (or absence thererof) is concealed underneath neoprene.

We place a main and backup timing system at all rolling start, the Mylaps Pro chip will read 100% on both lines at each line on the course. The batteries in these chips are good for 5 years and are sent in at the end of each year. When they get low they get replaced before they get a chance of not being read. We did have an issue with bad batches of chips a few years ago and they would die midway through the event (i.e 1 or 2 out of 2500) but the entire bad batch was replaced in 2013. We also have manual backup in place at key location like transition and finish line as well. We have requested a rule change as well that all awards and qualification times should be based on Electronic times only, meaning if you lose your chip and don't get a replacement you don't qualify....
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [trifast99] [ In reply to ]
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trifast99 wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
Given she apparently raised money from the local community to pay for some of her trips, I can see that there are some pretty pissed off people out there. I don't condone their actions if so, but I can see that more than just the people she cheated on the race course may be upset.

In her shoes I'm not sure how I would try to handle this. As Lance did for so long, denial seems to be the easiest way forward, but maybe as she comes to realize that everyone KNOWS she cheated, and given the fund-raising aspect to this also, she may want to chose the 'admission and apology' route as a better way to move forward with her life, certainly if she wants to remain in the same community. People are generally quite forgiving, as long as you admit your faults and apologise to those you've wronged.


Agreed- most people are forgiving. What will remain in many people's mind though is "WTF were you thinking?" Sacrifice your job(s), husband, children, reputation, family for a trip to Kona?

She thought she wouldn't be caught. Or at least no-one would be able to PROVE she cheated, because she wasn't wearing a chip. "Oops I lost it" was a plausible defense as a one off, and her friend who blogged her support of JM is evidence of that. But she thought she could get away with it again, and again...

People do really dumb things all the time (petty criminals, politicians, you name it) thinking they won't get caught, or there will always be an element of doubt in people's minds if they do. Then they will deny and hope everyone will forget about it. But technology has caught up with JM and she underestimated the new power of social media.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [TriMeSBR] [ In reply to ]
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TriMeSBR wrote:
trifast99 wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
Given she apparently raised money from the local community to pay for some of her trips, I can see that there are some pretty pissed off people out there. I don't condone their actions if so, but I can see that more than just the people she cheated on the race course may be upset.

In her shoes I'm not sure how I would try to handle this. As Lance did for so long, denial seems to be the easiest way forward, but maybe as she comes to realize that everyone KNOWS she cheated, and given the fund-raising aspect to this also, she may want to chose the 'admission and apology' route as a better way to move forward with her life, certainly if she wants to remain in the same community. People are generally quite forgiving, as long as you admit your faults and apologise to those you've wronged.


Agreed- most people are forgiving. What will remain in many people's mind though is "WTF were you thinking?" Sacrifice your job(s), husband, children, reputation, family for a trip to Kona?[/quote]

Ummm; rhetorical question (given the audience you are talking to)?

LOL. So true. Perhaps I should have been more clear- by "sacrifice" I meant impacting their lives in a VERY negative way. Her daughters will learn about this one day and her friends will (are) question her mental health. What impact will this have on her future career goals?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [y_nigel] [ In reply to ]
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y_nigel wrote:
... and a word that rhymes with 'meat'

ooh, ooh, I know this... "feat"?

as in: "incredible feat"
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
I am absolutely amazed that this has escalated the way that it has

i'm not at all surprised that lawyers are now involved though

I am really curious to see if the relevant governing bodies are going to step in and take action or whether they are hoping that this will simply go away now that the kona slot issue has resolved itself?

I think people take the safest course (not necessarily the easiest). Look at the Lehigh Valley Marathon race director. It was clear that Rossi cheated, but she (RD) wanted nothing to do with the right choice. So we are left to believe she is either too weak or too influenced to make the right decision.

That's what is so upsetting -- these people in positions to defend the honor of our sports don't make the right decisions. I think this is why we are seeing more witch hunts - clear cut cheating and yet there is no punishment and no reason not to continue cheating. PEDs, drafting, helmet mirrors, course cutting, jumping in earlier waves vs. VC firms and people lawyering up. When does it end?
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Jim Martin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jim Martin wrote:
jet black wrote:
This is the solution. .


I propose a different solution, and since WTC/USAT/sylvan and other may be reading, maybe something will come of this.

Apparently, the pros now race with the little box that tracks them all day, would it be that hard to tell racers at check in: welcome, if you want to race for a Kona slot, you need to pay an extra $20 to carry around this little box to track you all day. As an added bonus, you get to start in the KQ Mass Start. That way all you guys that are racing for the KQ will know where you stand when you pass one another on course. In addition, your chip strap is a different color than the non wave start people. So there, everyone that is racing to "complete" can have their race and do the rolling start and not sweat if they are getting passed or not, everyone else that is trying to get the KQ will know exactly where they stand when someone with a red chip strap passes them and if any results are ever in question, just go to the fancy little tracking device.

I would pay more for this service and to know that I was in a race and not a quasi time trial where I may get nicked at the line by a guy that was 20 minutes in front or behind me that I literally never saw on race day.

This is a great long term solution, but it will take some time to implement. The immediate solution is to just DQ if you lose your chip or miss a timing mat, unless you can provide GPS proof you did the whole course.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Wouldn't all the problems be solved if the RD placed 1 timing mat every mile in the run and 1 mat every 10mi in the bike just like a water station? Which will be doubled for the multi loop courses, is it very expensive? How much % do entry fees need to be increased?
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dan,

Have you reached out to Trican or TriBC to get their stance on this. If she is racing as much as it seems, she most likely is a TriBC member. I would like to hear their stance on this and what is being done if anything on their part.


AERO & LIGHT is RIGHT

Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JorgeRamos] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes, expensive, impractical...

A friend of mine is in the timing business, and does all he can to time only running races while avoiding triathlons. Why? Because in a running race, especially if it starts and finishes in the same place, and you don't need turn-around mats, you only need one timing mat and you can fit thousands of people on the course. Triathlons have multiple points that need mats and you can fit a lot less people on the course. Bad economics.

ETA: It also takes a lot longer to compile the results if all your timing mats are not centrally located, and athletes like to have results quickly.
Last edited by: Kay Serrar: Sep 1, 15 12:23
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [NJSteve] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If you are a RD of a small race that doesn't make too much money, do you act out of principal by challenging the cheaters and their lawyers? You can win out of principal and go bankrupt with legal fee, or you can let a hobbyist runner slide. It's not an easy decision. What is the "right" decision? Going bankrupt and not be able to feed your family or fighting one battle that isn't really that significant to the success of your race. What's the old saying? ... the road to hell is paved with good intentions?

Take a look at ST. Slowman decided to yank some threads rather than risk fighting a larger legal bill. I don't think anyone is blaming him for the yanks, given the new lawyering info


NJSteve wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
I am absolutely amazed that this has escalated the way that it has

i'm not at all surprised that lawyers are now involved though

I am really curious to see if the relevant governing bodies are going to step in and take action or whether they are hoping that this will simply go away now that the kona slot issue has resolved itself?


I think people take the safest course (not necessarily the easiest). Look at the Lehigh Valley Marathon race director. It was clear that Rossi cheated, but she (RD) wanted nothing to do with the right choice. So we are left to believe she is either too weak or too influenced to make the right decision.

That's what is so upsetting -- these people in positions to defend the honor of our sports don't make the right decisions. I think this is why we are seeing more witch hunts - clear cut cheating and yet there is no punishment and no reason not to continue cheating. PEDs, drafting, helmet mirrors, course cutting, jumping in earlier waves vs. VC firms and people lawyering up. When does it end?


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
While I enjoy a good twitch hunt along with everybody else, especially if it's a participant who, for example, slugs someone to get out of their way, I am having problems with this one.

This woman assuming she has acted alone, will be subject to a level of ridicule and ignorance most people never have to deal with in a normal lifetime, for what is essentially cheating to get a participation medal in a niche sport. We can only hope she seeks treatment and wish ultimately her family supports her through the process. She obviously has problems that extend well beyond what we can see.

The sports governing body in Canada should or will deal with her. Race directors will be wary of her and WTC will likely ban her.

She's done. And so should we be.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
attorneys typically counsel silence from their clients. my attorney is typical.

Dan-

You really need a "like" button for posts like this.

Sharon

Festina Lente
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [phog] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
phog wrote:
While I enjoy a good twitch hunt along with everybody else, especially if it's a participant who, for example, slugs someone to get out of their way, I am having problems with this one.

This woman assuming she has acted alone, will be subject to a level of ridicule and ignorance most people never have to deal with in a normal lifetime, for what is essentially cheating to get a participation medal in a niche sport. We can only hope she seeks treatment and wish ultimately her family supports her through the process. She obviously has problems that extend well beyond what we can see.

The sports governing body in Canada should or will deal with her. Race directors will be wary of her and WTC will likely ban her.

She's done. And so should we be.


I agree with all of this.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [spankybc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
spankybc wrote:
And so is her lawyer ;)

I sure hope that they both are. And the deleted ones also.

I don't think anyone has put anything that is not true. We want cheaters to be held accountable and at a minimum lose their standing and any awards. But what has been done can't really be undone. Her supporters who funded her flights etc. have already been duped.

It just stinks that an amateur athlete would sink so low. For what? Elevate herself in her mind above others? to receive accolades not deserved? Attention?

Sad.
Last edited by: Ty: Sep 1, 15 12:59
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [docpeachey] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
docpeachey wrote:
Slowman wrote:
attorneys typically counsel silence from their clients. my attorney is typical.


Dan-

You really need a "like" button for posts like this.

Sharon


+1
But i think what you meant to say was that lawyers typically conduct a lengthy review, and then counsel silence. Hence the retainer. ;)
Last edited by: lovegoat: Sep 1, 15 13:08
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [phog] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Unfortunately I completely disagree with your stance. She (is accused of) violating rules and regulations that create a fair playing field for all athletes to participate in. How about the athlete(s) who were trying to KQ, the real athletes who won those races, or maybe the community that was rallying around a (alleged) cheat? It might be niche sport but people spend thousands of dollars and countless hours committing to goals they set for themselves. For this woman to be out begging for attention is a whole new level of delusion. Although, ironically enough, she is now getting it.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sportstats wrote:
Overdistance wrote:
Sylvan - on chip reliability, not trying to re-direct this thread but what is the backup plan for a rolling start race if the chip does not read? How do you verify where a person started the swim at x:xx:xx in that situation? I realize that chips and scanners are very reliable but if a chip fails to register when you cross the mat surrounded by other competitors as you head into the water, there is no way for you (the competitor) to know that the chip did not register. Finding out after you finish the race that there was no start time would be devastating.

On the cheater side, a rolling start must open up a range of opportunities to circumvent the system in the absence of a backup verification system such as video of competitors entering swim with timestamp, etc. Especially for wetsuit swims where the chip (or absence thererof) is concealed underneath neoprene.


We place a main and backup timing system at all rolling start, the Mylaps Pro chip will read 100% on both lines at each line on the course. The batteries in these chips are good for 5 years and are sent in at the end of each year. When they get low they get replaced before they get a chance of not being read. We did have an issue with bad batches of chips a few years ago and they would die midway through the event (i.e 1 or 2 out of 2500) but the entire bad batch was replaced in 2013. We also have manual backup in place at key location like transition and finish line as well. We have requested a rule change as well that all awards and qualification times should be based on Electronic times only, meaning if you lose your chip and don't get a replacement you don't qualify....

I like this. Lost my chip for the first time in ~100ish tris a couple of weeks ago. I think it got stuck in my wetsuit, because I had the swim finish. Awesome catch by SetupEvents: the guy alerted me as I was running out of T1. I gave him my number and found a new chip on my running shoes when I came back. That's customer service! Ofcourse, I rode thoroughly rode the whole bike course, for the most part. I think. Maybe.

The only problems I see are (1) being able to alert the athlete that he's lost the chip (I had no idea) and (2) getting them a replacement in a reasonable time. Seconds count, even in an Ironman.

Requiring a personal GPS isn't a bad idea either, even (especially?) on the swim. I know there's no evidence that the athlete in question didn't complete both laps of the swim, but 57 minutes for 2.4 miles? Hmmm.... The tough part is drawing the line on what is too fast. 57 minutes isn't completely impossible.

I'm also for a KQ field. I'd gladly pay extra for live tracking (bonus for family), extra testing, and a separate wave. I think WTC could make money, ease some course congestion (maybe) and decrease the probability of cheating.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [phog] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
The sports governing body in Canada should or will deal with her. Race directors will be wary of her and WTC will likely ban her.
When those things happen, I will agree with you. But according to previous posters, a complaint was filed by the British Tri Fed with ITU, where has that gone? Hopefully something is happening behind the scenes with that complaint, but I have very little faith in the powers that be to retroactively DQ someone. And what about all the sponsors and people who contributed to her travels/racing?
Quote:
what is essentially cheating to get a participation medal in a niche sport
She did a lot more than this! Google her and you will find all kinds of pages out there where she is calling herself a world champion. If this here is what a participation medal looks like, sign me up for one: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/...us&client=safari


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [deh20] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
deh20 wrote:
I'm also for a KQ field. I'd gladly pay extra for live tracking (bonus for family), extra testing, and a separate wave. I think WTC could make money, ease some course congestion (maybe) and decrease the probability of cheating.

It would eliminate the suspense of "will my slot roll down or not?" At a glance, you'd know exactly how many in your AG are going for it, and how many others won't.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [NJSteve] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
NJSteve wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
I am absolutely amazed that this has escalated the way that it has

i'm not at all surprised that lawyers are now involved though

I am really curious to see if the relevant governing bodies are going to step in and take action or whether they are hoping that this will simply go away now that the kona slot issue has resolved itself?


I think people take the safest course (not necessarily the easiest). Look at the Lehigh Valley Marathon race director. It was clear that Rossi cheated, but she (RD) wanted nothing to do with the right choice. So we are left to believe she is either too weak or too influenced to make the right decision.

That's what is so upsetting -- these people in positions to defend the honor of our sports don't make the right decisions. I think this is why we are seeing more witch hunts - clear cut cheating and yet there is no punishment and no reason not to continue cheating. PEDs, drafting, helmet mirrors, course cutting, jumping in earlier waves vs. VC firms and people lawyering up. When does it end?

What is wrong with helmet mirrors? I race with it all the time. They are not illegal.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:

What is wrong with helmet mirrors? I race with it all the time. They are not illegal.

Are you sure about that?

I just looked at IMCHOO's athlete guide and....

" Helmet mirrors or mirrors attached to the bike or body are prohibited unless needed for a verifiable medical reason. Athletes granted permission to use a mirror will be ineligible for awards or World Championship entry slots. Athletes using a mirror without permission will be disqualified."

get comfortable being uncomfortable
Last edited by: stevej: Sep 1, 15 13:29
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [stevej] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
stevej wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


What is wrong with helmet mirrors? I race with it all the time. They are not illegal.


Are you sure about that?

I just looked at IMCHOO's athlete guide and....

" Helmet mirrors or mirrors attached to the bike or body are prohibited unless needed for a verifiable medical reason. Athletes granted permission to use a mirror will be ineligible for awards or World Championship entry slots. Athletes using a mirror without permission will be disqualified."

WTC yes, USAT in general, nope. I could not wear in worlds, and maybe not IMLT, but all other races I wear, as you can see in my race pictures.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JM: "Highlight: Beating my husband Ryan at the Test of Metal in 2008. Still being on my bike riding hard and racing with a three year old and ten month old girls to be a role model for."


Source: http://www.corsacycles.com/riders
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tonythetriguy wrote:
She did a lot more than this! Google her and you will find all kinds of pages out there where she is calling herself a world champion. If this here is what a participation medal looks like, sign me up for one: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/...us&client=safari

She set up her own "Support Julie Miller World Champion" facebook page? How incredibly humble of her. I think the "mental disorder" everyone refers to has to be extreme narcissism. All indications are Mike Rossi suffered the same.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think WTC put that rule in to prevent serial drafters from using the mirrors to alert them of marshals coming up from behind.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
stevej wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


What is wrong with helmet mirrors? I race with it all the time. They are not illegal.


Are you sure about that?

I just looked at IMCHOO's athlete guide and....

" Helmet mirrors or mirrors attached to the bike or body are prohibited unless needed for a verifiable medical reason. Athletes granted permission to use a mirror will be ineligible for awards or World Championship entry slots. Athletes using a mirror without permission will be disqualified."

WTC yes, USAT in general, nope. I could not wear in worlds, and maybe not IMLT, but all other races I wear, as you can see in my race pictures.

Well it looks like it's a DQ in WTC events. I just checked IMCHOO, IMMT, IMTX, and IMWI. All say cleary it's a DQ without medical permission.

get comfortable being uncomfortable
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [stevej] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
stevej wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
stevej wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


What is wrong with helmet mirrors? I race with it all the time. They are not illegal.


Are you sure about that?

I just looked at IMCHOO's athlete guide and....

" Helmet mirrors or mirrors attached to the bike or body are prohibited unless needed for a verifiable medical reason. Athletes granted permission to use a mirror will be ineligible for awards or World Championship entry slots. Athletes using a mirror without permission will be disqualified."


WTC yes, USAT in general, nope. I could not wear in worlds, and maybe not IMLT, but all other races I wear, as you can see in my race pictures.


Well it looks like it's a DQ in WTC events. I just checked IMCHOO, IMMT, IMTX, and IMWI. All say cleary it's a DQ without medical permission.

Yep. Since I race so few of these races, no big deal.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JoelO] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JoelO wrote:
I think WTC put that rule in to prevent serial drafters from using the mirrors to alert them of marshals coming up from behind.

No data to back this statement up. Just a few thinking the glass is half empty. I feel so much safer where in a race. 99% of my USAT races
have no marshalls at them, so not an issue.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
JoelO wrote:
I think WTC put that rule in to prevent serial drafters from using the mirrors to alert them of marshals coming up from behind.

No data to back this statement up. Just a few thinking the glass is half empty. I feel so much safer where in a race. 99% of my USAT races
have no marshalls at them, so not an issue.

So you think that, on a whim, for no reason, WTC just decided to add that rule?

____________________________________________________
First Endurance | Towpath Bike Shop | Nuun
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Sbradley11] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sbradley11 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JoelO wrote:
I think WTC put that rule in to prevent serial drafters from using the mirrors to alert them of marshals coming up from behind.


No data to back this statement up. Just a few thinking the glass is half empty. I feel so much safer where in a race. 99% of my USAT races
have no marshalls at them, so not an issue.


So you think that, on a whim, for no reason, WTC just decided to add that rule?

Would not be the first time.

Just like when USAT said 10mm wetsuits could not be used. Just a few board members that had issues, not the membership.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
Sbradley11 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JoelO wrote:
I think WTC put that rule in to prevent serial drafters from using the mirrors to alert them of marshals coming up from behind.


No data to back this statement up. Just a few thinking the glass is half empty. I feel so much safer where in a race. 99% of my USAT races
have no marshalls at them, so not an issue.


So you think that, on a whim, for no reason, WTC just decided to add that rule?

Would not be the first time.

Just like when USAT said 10mm wetsuits could not be used. Just a few board members that had issues, not the membership.

Sometimes you don't need data. Being reasonable and rational is enough. Helmet mirrors make it so it's easy to see if someone is coming behind you in case you're doing something you shouldn't be in a race. And 10mm wetsuits are like row boats/saunas.

____________________________________________________
First Endurance | Towpath Bike Shop | Nuun
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
Sbradley11 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JoelO wrote:
I think WTC put that rule in to prevent serial drafters from using the mirrors to alert them of marshals coming up from behind.


No data to back this statement up. Just a few thinking the glass is half empty. I feel so much safer where in a race. 99% of my USAT races
have no marshalls at them, so not an issue.


So you think that, on a whim, for no reason, WTC just decided to add that rule?


Would not be the first time.

Just like when USAT said 10mm wetsuits could not be used. Just a few board members that had issues, not the membership.

You should read the Kevin Moats thread (if it still exists) dealing with his punishment regarding the lack of a TUE. It quickly hit on the fact that he used the mirror to check for marshals.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
Sbradley11 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JoelO wrote:
I think WTC put that rule in to prevent serial drafters from using the mirrors to alert them of marshals coming up from behind.


No data to back this statement up. Just a few thinking the glass is half empty. I feel so much safer where in a race. 99% of my USAT races
have no marshalls at them, so not an issue.


So you think that, on a whim, for no reason, WTC just decided to add that rule?


Would not be the first time.

Just like when USAT said 10mm wetsuits could not be used. Just a few board members that had issues, not the membership.

You have a knack for derailing threads with non-sense and unrelated arguments to show everyone how different you are. It's annoying as hell.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [NJSteve] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
NJSteve wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Sbradley11 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JoelO wrote:
I think WTC put that rule in to prevent serial drafters from using the mirrors to alert them of marshals coming up from behind.


No data to back this statement up. Just a few thinking the glass is half empty. I feel so much safer where in a race. 99% of my USAT races
have no marshalls at them, so not an issue.


So you think that, on a whim, for no reason, WTC just decided to add that rule?


Would not be the first time.

Just like when USAT said 10mm wetsuits could not be used. Just a few board members that had issues, not the membership.


You should read the Kevin Moats thread (if it still exists) dealing with his punishment regarding the lack of a TUE. It quickly hit on the fact that he used the mirror to check for marshals.

Like everything in life, some cheat. Yep, clearly a mirror can be used to cheat with drafting, but since 99% do not use, this has not stopped drafting has it?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [get2T2] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
get2T2 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Sbradley11 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JoelO wrote:
I think WTC put that rule in to prevent serial drafters from using the mirrors to alert them of marshals coming up from behind.


No data to back this statement up. Just a few thinking the glass is half empty. I feel so much safer where in a race. 99% of my USAT races
have no marshalls at them, so not an issue.


So you think that, on a whim, for no reason, WTC just decided to add that rule?


Would not be the first time.

Just like when USAT said 10mm wetsuits could not be used. Just a few board members that had issues, not the membership.


You have a knack for derailing threads with non-sense and unrelated arguments to show everyone how different you are. It's annoying as hell.

What brought up that mirrors are cheating or illegal? I did not.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
get2T2 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Sbradley11 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JoelO wrote:
I think WTC put that rule in to prevent serial drafters from using the mirrors to alert them of marshals coming up from behind.


No data to back this statement up. Just a few thinking the glass is half empty. I feel so much safer where in a race. 99% of my USAT races
have no marshalls at them, so not an issue.


So you think that, on a whim, for no reason, WTC just decided to add that rule?


Would not be the first time.

Just like when USAT said 10mm wetsuits could not be used. Just a few board members that had issues, not the membership.


You have a knack for derailing threads with non-sense and unrelated arguments to show everyone how different you are. It's annoying as hell.


What brought up that mirrors are cheating or illegal? I did not.

No, but you just had to put your two cents in, didn't you?
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [get2T2] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
get2T2 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Sbradley11 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JoelO wrote:
I think WTC put that rule in to prevent serial drafters from using the mirrors to alert them of marshals coming up from behind.


No data to back this statement up. Just a few thinking the glass is half empty. I feel so much safer where in a race. 99% of my USAT races
have no marshalls at them, so not an issue.


So you think that, on a whim, for no reason, WTC just decided to add that rule?


Would not be the first time.

Just like when USAT said 10mm wetsuits could not be used. Just a few board members that had issues, not the membership.

You have a knack for derailing threads with non-sense and unrelated arguments to show everyone how different you are. It's annoying as hell.

+1 sorry I bit on the bait. I should know better.

____________________________________________________
First Endurance | Towpath Bike Shop | Nuun
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [get2T2] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
get2T2 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
get2T2 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Sbradley11 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JoelO wrote:
I think WTC put that rule in to prevent serial drafters from using the mirrors to alert them of marshals coming up from behind.


No data to back this statement up. Just a few thinking the glass is half empty. I feel so much safer where in a race. 99% of my USAT races
have no marshalls at them, so not an issue.


So you think that, on a whim, for no reason, WTC just decided to add that rule?


Would not be the first time.

Just like when USAT said 10mm wetsuits could not be used. Just a few board members that had issues, not the membership.


You have a knack for derailing threads with non-sense and unrelated arguments to show everyone how different you are. It's annoying as hell.


Yep, just like you and others. :)
What brought up that mirrors are cheating or illegal? I did not.


No, but you just had to put your two cents in, didn't you?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [get2T2] [ In reply to ]
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get2T2 wrote:
You have a knack for derailing threads with non-sense and unrelated arguments to show everyone how different you are. It's annoying as hell.


Post of the week! I love it so much I'm making it my new tag line!
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [get2T2] [ In reply to ]
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get2T2 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Sbradley11 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JoelO wrote:
I think WTC put that rule in to prevent serial drafters from using the mirrors to alert them of marshals coming up from behind.


No data to back this statement up. Just a few thinking the glass is half empty. I feel so much safer where in a race. 99% of my USAT races
have no marshalls at them, so not an issue.


So you think that, on a whim, for no reason, WTC just decided to add that rule?


Would not be the first time.

Just like when USAT said 10mm wetsuits could not be used. Just a few board members that had issues, not the membership.


You have a knack for derailing threads with non-sense and unrelated arguments to show everyone how different you are. It's annoying as hell.

Maybe Julie Miller paid him off?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [walie] [ In reply to ]
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walie wrote:
get2T2 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Sbradley11 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JoelO wrote:
I think WTC put that rule in to prevent serial drafters from using the mirrors to alert them of marshals coming up from behind.


No data to back this statement up. Just a few thinking the glass is half empty. I feel so much safer where in a race. 99% of my USAT races
have no marshalls at them, so not an issue.


So you think that, on a whim, for no reason, WTC just decided to add that rule?


Would not be the first time.

Just like when USAT said 10mm wetsuits could not be used. Just a few board members that had issues, not the membership.


You have a knack for derailing threads with non-sense and unrelated arguments to show everyone how different you are. It's annoying as hell.


Maybe Julie Miller paid him off?

You think she started a donation page to fund that?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [walie] [ In reply to ]
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oh, no this is just h2o being h2o (eventually its about him and I think he really likes it)
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Sbradley11] [ In reply to ]
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Sbradley11 wrote:
[

Sometimes you don't need data. Being reasonable and rational is enough. Helmet mirrors make it so it's easy to see if someone is coming behind you in case you're doing something you shouldn't be in a race.

Well his mirror didn't seem to help Dave avoid the draft marshals at the Auburn Tri;)

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Learn how to use a computer, buddy. Your reply is buried in another posters message.

And learn how to participate in a thread without turning it into a discussion of h20fun's efforts to be different.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Runguy] [ In reply to ]
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Runguy wrote:
oh, no this is just h2o being h2o (eventually its about him and I think he really likes it)

May he should change his name to "h2-NO-fun?"

As for the whole "Body Is A Temple" thing? Well, many ancient deities often enjoyed offerings of Sweets and Intoxicants
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Someone who needs to raise money from the public to fund her trip to an age group triathlon race, that she allegedly cheats at, now has money to retain a lawyer to threaten and/or sue the website hosting a forum discussing her proven and/or alleged cheating.

The world needs more paragons of humanity like this. Sheesh.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [OkotoksLawyer] [ In reply to ]
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fundraising her legal fund perhaps?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [walie] [ In reply to ]
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Lawyer may be on contingency.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:

Well his mirror didn't seem to help Dave avoid the draft marshals at the Auburn Tri;)

yowch

Eliot
blog thing - strava thing
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


What is wrong with helmet mirrors? I race with it all the time. They are not illegal.


Are you sure about that?

I just looked at IMCHOO's athlete guide and....

" Helmet mirrors or mirrors attached to the bike or body are prohibited unless needed for a verifiable medical reason. Athletes granted permission to use a mirror will be ineligible for awards or World Championship entry slots. Athletes using a mirror without permission will be disqualified."

Those with a hearing impairment should be permitted to use a mirror.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [thisgirl] [ In reply to ]
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Not likely IMO.... Tough to take a percentage on Zero. Pro bono perhaps, but contingency is highly unlikely. But stranger things have happened (e.g. this thread and the previous two ;) )
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [legalgooner] [ In reply to ]
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legalgooner wrote:
Not likely IMO.... Tough to take a percentage on Zero. Pro bono perhaps, but contingency is highly unlikely. But stranger things have happened (e.g. this thread and the previous two ;) )

Is contingency legal in Canada ?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [OkotoksLawyer] [ In reply to ]
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OkotoksLawyer wrote:
Someone who needs to raise money from the public to fund her trip to an age group triathlon race, that she allegedly cheats at, now has money to retain a lawyer to threaten and/or sue the website hosting a forum discussing her proven and/or alleged cheating.

The world needs more paragons of humanity like this. Sheesh.

lol
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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While I do not practice in Canada, I understand that it is a "legal" form of representation.
Last edited by: legalgooner: Sep 1, 15 17:06
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,

I feel that you have been very fair and balanced in both your comments and governing a frustrated crowd. I ask a simple question and am interested in your thoughts. If Ms. Miller was disqualified from a qualifying event then aren't her results in China automatically null. i.e. If I were the NY Yankees and made it to the World Series and Won.....Then it was determined I was disqualified from the event which put me into the world series....It would seem I couldn't win the world series if I was disqualified in the round before I got there. Before or after the result. Thoughts? Mostly trying to understand how all these different organizations rule in these circumstances. I defer to your extensive knowledge over my limited knowledge.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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I always wait and look for your posts to H2O - and you never fail me! Amazing you always find them! How?
Last edited by: chrisinma: Sep 1, 15 18:07
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [livestrongscott] [ In reply to ]
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livestrongscott wrote:
Dan,

I feel that you have been very fair and balanced in both your comments and governing a frustrated crowd. I ask a simple question and am interested in your thoughts. If Ms. Miller was disqualified from a qualifying event then aren't her results in China automatically null. i.e. If I were the NY Yankees and made it to the World Series and Won.....Then it was determined I was disqualified from the event which put me into the world series....It would seem I couldn't win the world series if I was disqualified in the round before I got there. Before or after the result. Thoughts? Mostly trying to understand how all these different organizations rule in these circumstances. I defer to your extensive knowledge over my limited knowledge.

Good point.

I know with Mark Robson (Australian cheat) he qualified for 70.3 worlds in Texas and Kona plus ITU events and was later DQ'd for cheating at the qualifying races - Busselton 70.3. But he was never DQ'd from the worlds. Neither of them had legitimately qualified for these events, so I'm sure there must be something in the rulebook that states in order to race this event you must meet certain criteria, one of which is gaining a certain time at a qualifying event.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tonythetriguy wrote:
Quote:
The sports governing body in Canada should or will deal with her. Race directors will be wary of her and WTC will likely ban her.

When those things happen, I will agree with you. But according to previous posters, a complaint was filed by the British Tri Fed with ITU, where has that gone? Hopefully something is happening behind the scenes with that complaint, but I have very little faith in the powers that be to retroactively DQ someone. And what about all the sponsors and people who contributed to her travels/racing?
Quote:
what is essentially cheating to get a participation medal in a niche sport

She did a lot more than this! Google her and you will find all kinds of pages out there where she is calling herself a world champion. If this here is what a participation medal looks like, sign me up for one: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/...us&client=safari


Re: that link: she had to throw in the whole "inferior gender" card as well. WTF???? I'm female and during my entire teen/adult life have worked in a male dominated profession. My accolades (and shortcomings) have been a product of my work; not my sex. I don't think that, outside some isolated circumstance (where the guy was probably a misogynist) I've routinely felt like I was part of an inferior gender. In triathlon, I think that the "outcomes" (in this case; Kona slots) are very gender-blind and probably favor the female athletes. IMO, not only does JM come across as a sociopath; but also as a female with a huge chip on her shoulder.

leslie myers
http://www.foodsensenow.com
Last edited by: Honey: Sep 1, 15 18:37
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Newts] [ In reply to ]
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Newts wrote:


As an eye-witness, the woo-ha this girl created at the finish line to get her podium was incredible, applying pressure on the organisers, I think there was mention of a faulty timing chip or something - they folded. The British contingent didn't contest too much at the time as you expect and rely on the integrity in your competitors and it was only looking back at the results (which were released much later in the day) that it was evident that something didn't stack up.

Disgraceful behaviour.


After hearing things like that about her, I'm less inclined to think she has a mentally illness, more of a case she's just a nasty, narcissistic, self-obsessed individual.
Last edited by: zedzded: Sep 1, 15 18:57
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Honey] [ In reply to ]
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She was also an, "Air Canada Charity Recipient." I wonder if they know they were duped?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I for one was caught in this net as a false positive in a 70.3 race which I did a few years back in central america. I won my AG but was DQed based on a non-sensical timing split. What confused the matter was that the run course was actually 1/2 mile short due to construction and my run time was fast relative to my pace. Since I did not run 13.1 miles according to my Garmin it "proof" I was guilty as charged and could not convince anyone otherwise.

It was not until I got home, able to upload my Garmin showing I ran the course (and it was short) and sent this to the RD that I was able to get my race result reinstated. Never did get that trophy... and I don't win my AG that often.

Comment - timing systems are not fool-proof and courses are not always accurate. The race official seemed quite happy to have caught me cheating and would not even listen to my (valid) arguments.


Slowman wrote:
i saw that you wrote this. a couple of things come to mind:

1. this probably wasn't installed, or the scope of the software beyond, what happened at the subaru vancouver half.
2. i would very much like to pursue the 5-10 people statement. that is per race? and how often is this a false positive for cheating? in other words, how many times is it determined out of these 5-10 that somebody crossed the finish, doing too few laps or in some way not the prescribed course, and claiming the result as valid?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [joggernut] [ In reply to ]
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What was the "non-sensical" timing split? Did you lose your chip? Did you miss a timing mat? Did you out run the Pro Field? What was the anomaly that led to the initial DQ when you finished?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [SasquatchRuns] [ In reply to ]
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SasquatchRuns wrote:
What was the "non-sensical" timing split? Did you lose your chip? Did you miss a timing mat? Did you out run the Pro Field? What was the anomaly that led to the initial DQ when you finished?

From what I was told one split indicated that I ran from point A to point B at a 5 min/mile pace. I was not given the pleasure of viewing all the data to see why that error occurred or to check their math, but something clearly did not add up. Oddly, when I went back to the hotel and checked the athlete tracker, the online results looked perfectly normal. I attribute it a glitch in their software, don't know how the timing data they analyze relates to the online tracking results.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Honey] [ In reply to ]
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Honey wrote:
... but also as a female with a huge chip on her shoulder.

There you go, the chip was on the shoulder. Mistery solved.



Only fools never change their minds and I'll never change my mind about that.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [joggernut] [ In reply to ]
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Bizarre. Either way, you had a chip time and GPS data to support it. In my mind, your situation is easily spoken to if the result is contested. A situation where a chip is lost AND you have no GPS data is a DQ for me, no questions asked.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [SasquatchRuns] [ In reply to ]
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SasquatchRuns wrote:
Bizarre. Either way, you had a chip time and GPS data to support it. In my mind, your situation is easily spoken to if the result is contested. A situation where a chip is lost AND you have no GPS data is a DQ for me, no questions asked.

Yeah, but in this case I did not get to stand on the podium and someone else went home with my 1st place trophy. My only fault was not having access to a laptop to upload my data - perhaps WTC timing officials should have this available for people to contest the results with their own data.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Bancarel] [ In reply to ]
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Bancarel wrote:
Honey wrote:
... but also as a female with a huge chip on her shoulder.


There you go, the chip was on the shoulder. Mistery solved.

I enjoyed this.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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Laughed out loud too!

CJ
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
lovegoat wrote:
Runout wrote:
+1 The baby was thrown out with the bathwater when the thread disappeared. I would prefer to see it displayed and locked following deleting that which is unacceptable.


+2

Would welcome removal (moderation?:)) of the mob amusemt from posts 250 and out, but the discussion before that was fine, imo.

Also - slowman mentioned something about the coaches post as reason to hide the thread. If the thread stays hidden I'd like to hear a bit more detail on why the coach's post should get buried (I'd get it if there was suspicion that it was not the actual coach coming forward though..)


Quite honestly I still don't quite understand how her coach didn't pick up on any red flags. I have been coached, and my spouse is a couch. Unless you have so many athletes you're coaching that you are not able to dedicate the time and effort to analyzing any of their training and race results, then I don't see how some of JM's performances could go without suspicion. I understand that she didn't post training files, but still... Some of her performances involved out-biking or out-running many of the pro men and women. How does that pass even the mildest sniff test? Further, these were performances at high profile races, not local sprints, where one would expect a higher level of post-race analysis.

I can give the coach the benefit of the doubt that he genuinely didn't pick up on any of the anomalies, but that, to me, suggests he didn't spend much time discussing her racing goals or looking at her performances and discussing them with her afterwards. Maybe it was a combination of them: some suspicions existed, but we're not followed up on, and JM was just one of a very many athletes being coached?

I agree and am astounded by this - maybe she can ask the coach for a refund to fund her attorney fee's
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. Along with pictures so people recognize her.

Let as many people as possible know about her behavior.
If it is attention and admiration she craves as motivation for cheating, publicly exposing her behavior is probably the best deterrent of her racing any time soon - or trying to cheat again.

That being said, I have met a few rare psych cases that despite being caught, DQ repeatedly from races, banned, and in one case followed on bike by the RD - still tried to cheat.
Yet another assumed the identify of a family friend and raced under their name. Even claiming to be sponsored by Adidas.

It's a compulsion or addiction.

Personally I vote for banning her from any competitive sport. Not just triathlons. If she is willing to cheat at tris she will probably cheat at whatever she takes up next.

"There may be men that can beat me, but they are going to have to bleed to do it." Steve Prefontane
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [powerbarjunkie] [ In reply to ]
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powerbarjunkie wrote:
I agree. Along with pictures so people recognize her.

Let as many people as possible know about her behavior.
If it is attention and admiration she craves as motivation for cheating, publicly exposing her behavior is probably the best deterrent of her racing any time soon - or trying to cheat again.

That being said, I have met a few rare psych cases that despite being caught, DQ repeatedly from races, banned, and in one case followed on bike by the RD - still tried to cheat.
Yet another assumed the identify of a family friend and raced under their name. Even claiming to be sponsored by Adidas.

It's a compulsion or addiction.

Personally I vote for banning her from any competitive sport. Not just triathlons. If she is willing to cheat at tris she will probably cheat at whatever she takes up next.

What irks me is her lack of contriteness and her unwillingness to issue an apology. When she was busted, she had an "out", of sorts. Generally people are pretty forgiving, to a point. She could have confessed straight away, admitted she cheated, come up with some cock n bull story about how some kids at school stole her lunch money and called her names and now she's depressed so had to cheat yadda yadda yadda - we would have accepted it and forgiven her and that would have been the end of the matter. But refusing to admit she has cheated and lawyering up has not only angered people further, but ensured Juliegate is not going to go away any time soon.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [OkotoksLawyer] [ In reply to ]
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her aeroplan fundraising page says that racing worlds was going to cost her over $7000. that figure seems high, to me. . .

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [livestrongscott] [ In reply to ]
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livestrongscott wrote:
Dan,

I feel that you have been very fair and balanced in both your comments and governing a frustrated crowd. I ask a simple question and am interested in your thoughts. If Ms. Miller was disqualified from a qualifying event then aren't her results in China automatically null. i.e. If I were the NY Yankees and made it to the World Series and Won.....Then it was determined I was disqualified from the event which put me into the world series....It would seem I couldn't win the world series if I was disqualified in the round before I got there. Before or after the result. Thoughts? Mostly trying to understand how all these different organizations rule in these circumstances. I defer to your extensive knowledge over my limited knowledge.

Someone will correct me on this if I'm wrong, but as I understand it ITU Worlds are different from WTC worlds (and the World Series for that matter) in that technically you don't "qualify" for ITU Worlds, you are nominated to take part by your Federation - most Federations use some sort of qualification process rather than just, say, picking names out of a hat, but that process is solely part of the Federation and is not an official part of the ITU Worlds, so I doubt that ITU would have any grounds under their laws to nullify the result of an athlete that a Federation later says shouldn't have been there.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [NJSteve] [ In reply to ]
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NJSteve wrote:

I think people take the safest course (not necessarily the easiest). Look at the Lehigh Valley Marathon race director. It was clear that Rossi cheated, but she (RD) wanted nothing to do with the right choice. So we are left to believe she is either too weak or too influenced to make the right decision.

Something I've never understood about the Rossi thing is why everyone is so keen to have the Lehigh Valley result DQ'd. Surely it's irrelevant? If it had all come out before Boston, then getting him officially DQ'd would have meant that he couldn't run Boston. But it all came out after he had run Boston, so where is the pay off?

I don't blame Lehigh Valley for not wanting to get involved given that there was nothing to gain (for anyone) except the lawyers.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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iron_mike wrote:
her aeroplan fundraising page says that racing worlds was going to cost her over $7000. that figure seems high, to me. . .

-mike

Well, 1 first class ticket, staying at a fancy hotel, checking the course to know where to cut it, and testing the strategy. And then a few weeks later, the actual trip to the race.
It's expensive, man.

-------------------------------------------

http://www.fmcoaching.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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Well it worked for Mike Rossi.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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lovegoat wrote:
JayPeeWhy wrote:
So far we have had a DQ from Ironman Canada in 2015 and a stripping of results from the Vancouver Half Iron in 2014

There has been a lot of speculation regarding the performance of Julie Miller at the ITU Long Course World Championship in China in 2014.

A run that decimated all in her age group - 1hr 23m 43s (some 6 minutes faster than anyone else in her AG over just 20km) and a run that decimated most of the pro / elite female field (she had the 4th Fastest Female time compared to all Elite/ Pro Women - beating Andrea Hewett (NZ) and Laura Bennett (USA)

The lady who came 2nd in the 40-44 Age Group, thereby losing the right to call herself a World Champion, is Victoria Hill who was representing Great Britain. Victoria is a super consistent athlete and a great runner. Following the recent DQ's and after a year of uncertainly she has decided to come forward with her version of events at that World Championship race.

Here's what she had to say:

Quote:

At the time in Weihai, the result was always a mystery. Julie had clearly crossed the line in front of me..... I only clocked [saw] her on our last lap. I knew I was catching her, there was no way she is a faster runner than me. At the finish, the results said I had won which of course she challenged. She had crossed the line in front of me so I accepted I had come 2nd. The results were a debacle, it took ages for them to do our awards ceremony and then it transpired that her chip had been lost/something went wrong with it. I had no reason to think otherwise.

When the results finally came out on the website, it showed that she had come off the bike after me and then ran a faster time than me. I always knew this was wrong as I know for a fact no girl past me on the run. As this part is my strength, I normally do the passing on the run so would be well aware of another female passing me. The results only got published on line the next day and I never challenged it. In hindsight, of course I should have done but I just assumed she had come off the bike well in front of me and that I could not quite get her on the run. It was a 3 lap bike and a 4 lap run so somewhere she obviously ....


The third placed girl is also in contact with Victoria and they are looking to pursue the matter with ITU.

.


I think the discussion needs to be turned more towards this (and no the credibility of JayPeeWhy, ref last 2 pages of this new thread). Thanks for posting the above. I also posted in the previous IMC-thread regarding JM's run in Weihai. 1:23 for 20K - running only slightly slower than most ELITE men - Craig Alexander had the by far fastest split that day with 1:09. This seems highly unlikley - as backed up by the post from JayPeeWhy above.

Just out of curiosity I found a map of what seems to be the 2014 Weihei Run-course. A 4-loop 5k: http://www.triathlon.org/...ts/LD_run_course.jpg

For me the run-split is evidence enough - pretty much in line with the bike-splits of lap 3+4 in Vancouver Half 2014. It is more than hard to believe that JM could run 1:23 for 20k on the back of a 4 hrs bike@just under 30 km/h. I am all for keeping the faith that I one day may truly perform to my potential and bust out a huge PR for a run-split in IM/HIM, but I think that this is just not realistic at the very pointy end of the field.

Sure: if your previous PR was - for instance - 1:30 for a HIM run split - achieving a 2min PR is actually quite a bit of an improvement. Going 5-6 sec faster every K may not sound that incredible, but IMO the difference of 4:15/k and 4:10k is pretty noticable.. Still - this is well within the realm of possibility. What is not within the realm of possibility is - as far as I'm concerned - going from a 4:45/pace to 4-4:15min/K for a HIM-run split. This just does not happen over night, no matter how good a day you had. One thing is going from 6:30min/K to 5:45 min/K - which in itself would be a huge improvement. However, gains will be more easily obtained the slower your starting-speed was. When approaching speeds at 4min/k and below for a HIM-split you are so close to the really pointy end of your own potential, I just dont believe it can happen from one month to another. I should note that I dont have any good grounds to establish JMs normal running ability (partly becaue all of her results are now being questioned), but for example se ran:

- 1:39 in Vancouver half where it seems she cut the bike. This is approx 4:40min/k.

- 3:01 for 2015 ITU Long Dist (30k run) - this is approx 6:00/k - allthough on the back of a longer bike than your normal HIM.

Based of this alone she would have to cook up one heck of an explanation for me to believe she ran 4:10/k on the back of a 120k bike in Weihai..

Sure - course-profiles would also affect this picture, but the unlikleyness of her run split in ITU 2014 is supported by comparing her run split to other racers in the various events - she chrushed it compered to everyone else in Weihai. Not so much the other events. Also - the run course in Weihai - where she has by far her fastes run-pace - seems to be quite hilly: http://www.triathlon.org/...un_Profile_Graph.jpg


JayPeeWhy's evernote links appear to no longer be working. [ETA: seems to be my problem. Ignore.]

But this earlier post summarises well what happened at the ITU Long Course Worlds in Weihai, China. I can't imagine how frustrating it must have been for Victoria Hill to have made that long trip to the Worlds only to be cheated out of her first place. JM allegedly ran a 6:43/mile pace off a 4+ hour bike. The run course was 4 laps of a 5km loop, each of which included 2 out and back sections. I assume there was a timing mat at each of these 2 turn-around points, but low and behold, there were some issues with JM's chip.
Last edited by: Kay Serrar: Sep 2, 15 5:32
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [alir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
alir wrote:
NJSteve wrote:


I think people take the safest course (not necessarily the easiest). Look at the Lehigh Valley Marathon race director. It was clear that Rossi cheated, but she (RD) wanted nothing to do with the right choice. So we are left to believe she is either too weak or too influenced to make the right decision.


Something I've never understood about the Rossi thing is why everyone is so keen to have the Lehigh Valley result DQ'd. Surely it's irrelevant? If it had all come out before Boston, then getting him officially DQ'd would have meant that he couldn't run Boston. But it all came out after he had run Boston, so where is the pay off?

I don't blame Lehigh Valley for not wanting to get involved given that there was nothing to gain (for anyone) except the lawyers.

I guess I just think everyone (including RDs who earn a living off of this) should do what is right and not what is easy.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [twimc] [ In reply to ]
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For those of you doing the JM dissertation :). Is there a current number for results where timing chips have been suspect/abnormal/lost etc?
Last edited by: sharkbait_au: Sep 2, 15 5:24
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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They work fine for me.

____________________________________________
Don Larkin
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USAT Lvl1 Coach, NSCA-CPT, TRX Qualified (Standard & Sports Medicine)
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [TriMyBest] [ In reply to ]
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hmm? Odd. I can't even get on to Evernote's website, so I guess it's a problem my end. I was able to access the links before.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sharkbait_au] [ In reply to ]
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Just replying in general....

Had a look at her donate page; seems she volunteers to help kids who struggle with mental illness--we tend to help those who remind us of ourselves in some way.

I think this whole story is sad and feel badly for the lady, it appears she is struggling herself and has for some time.

It's my opinion that a lot of people struggle with various mental health issues and handle them in various ways. Drugs, alcohol, sex....or they cheat in races to make them feel better (for a small time).

It is my guess, and only my guess, that this person, deep down, is struggling.

I guess, my main point, is mental health is a huge problem that offers very little support for those struggling with it. When I say "little support" it's basically non existent. Even if you live in a strong community with good hospitals, and you have good insurance, it is a joke.

I'm not excusing her actions by any means, they are clearly wrong and she has got to pay the price. That said, we need to realize the root cause of these types of decisions, make it so it's not so taboo to talk about it, and set up systems so people can get appropriate medical care.

Until you or someone extremely close to you has felt debilitating depression, a long running manic episode, bipolar, or any other form of mental illness, try not to answer what you would do or not do under those circumstances.

Mike
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [alir] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Something I've never understood about the Rossi thing is why everyone is so keen to have the Lehigh Valley result DQ'd. Surely it's irrelevant? If it had all come out before Boston, then getting him officially DQ'd would have meant that he couldn't run Boston. But it all came out after he had run Boston, so where is the pay off?
I don't blame Lehigh Valley for not wanting to get involved given that there was nothing to gain (for anyone) except the lawyers.
From my understanding of that situation, an official with the Boston Marathon had inferred that if Rossi were DQ'd from the qualifying race, they would consider DQing his result from Boston since he had qualified fraudulently, but they wouldn't do anything until then. Also, Rossi had supposedly used his LVM time to enter the Chicago marathon which has yet to happen… Regardless if there is a perceived benefit, DQ'ing Rossi would have been the right/just thing to do. Fortunately with Julie Miller, at least two races so far have stepped up and done the right thing!


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
stevej wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


What is wrong with helmet mirrors? I race with it all the time. They are not illegal.


Are you sure about that?

I just looked at IMCHOO's athlete guide and....

" Helmet mirrors or mirrors attached to the bike or body are prohibited unless needed for a verifiable medical reason. Athletes granted permission to use a mirror will be ineligible for awards or World Championship entry slots. Athletes using a mirror without permission will be disqualified."


WTC yes, USAT in general, nope. I could not wear in worlds, and maybe not IMLT, but all other races I wear, as you can see in my race pictures.

You learned from the best I see.

MOATS! MOATS! MOATS!!!

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sharkbait_au] [ In reply to ]
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sharkbait_au wrote:
For those of you doing the JM dissertation :). Is there a current number for results where timing chips have been suspect/abnormal/lost etc?

In chronological order:

2013 IMC (lost chip, swam 58 mins, ran 3:42 marathon, both of which seem inconsistent with other swims/runs)
2014 Test of Metal MTB race (lost race number on front of bike, cut 25 mins off prior year's time)
2014 Vancouver Long Distance Triathlon (DQ, but not sure if chip lost. Think the issue was out-biking pro men on 2 laps)
2014 ITU Long Distance Worlds (lost chip (according to quoted comment from 2nd place finisher), ran 6:43/mile for 20km off a 4+ hour bike. Not normal.)
2015 IMC (lost chip, DQ)

I believe the above information is factual. Happy to be corrected.

Locals who say JM's course-cutting was a poorly kept secret may know of other 'not normal' performances.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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2014 Vancouver. Chip was not lost, however outbiked all pros - men and women - on 2 of 4 bike laps. And was witnessed twice cutting the run course.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for the update. I think keeping this a factual thread and not questioning her mental health will allow Dan to keep the thread up and running.


AERO & LIGHT is RIGHT

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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
stevej wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


What is wrong with helmet mirrors? I race with it all the time. They are not illegal.


Are you sure about that?

I just looked at IMCHOO's athlete guide and....

" Helmet mirrors or mirrors attached to the bike or body are prohibited unless needed for a verifiable medical reason. Athletes granted permission to use a mirror will be ineligible for awards or World Championship entry slots. Athletes using a mirror without permission will be disqualified."


WTC yes, USAT in general, nope. I could not wear in worlds, and maybe not IMLT, but all other races I wear, as you can see in my race pictures.


You learned from the best I see.

MOATS! MOATS! MOATS!!!

Moats just won the 60-64 age group championship in the 70.3 Worlds last weekend. You'll have to check race pics to see if a mirror was present.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tonythetriguy wrote:
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Something I've never understood about the Rossi thing is why everyone is so keen to have the Lehigh Valley result DQ'd. Surely it's irrelevant? If it had all come out before Boston, then getting him officially DQ'd would have meant that he couldn't run Boston. But it all came out after he had run Boston, so where is the pay off?
I don't blame Lehigh Valley for not wanting to get involved given that there was nothing to gain (for anyone) except the lawyers.

From my understanding of that situation, an official with the Boston Marathon had inferred that if Rossi were DQ'd from the qualifying race, they would consider DQing his result from Boston since he had qualified fraudulently, but they wouldn't do anything until then. Also, Rossi had supposedly used his LVM time to enter the Chicago marathon which has yet to happen… Regardless if there is a perceived benefit, DQ'ing Rossi would have been the right/just thing to do. Fortunately with Julie Miller, at least two races so far have stepped up and done the right thing!

But again, that wouldn't change anything - it looks like his goal was to run Boston. He ran Boston. Retro DQ's don't change that.

JM is a different case because retro DQs for her would mean that other people would then become AG champions, etc.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
sharkbait_au wrote:
For those of you doing the JM dissertation :). Is there a current number for results where timing chips have been suspect/abnormal/lost etc?


In chronological order:

2013 IMC (lost chip, swam 58 mins, ran 3:42 marathon, both of which seem inconsistent with other swims/runs)
2014 Test of Metal MTB race (lost race number on front of bike, cut 25 mins off prior year's time)
2014 Vancouver Long Distance Triathlon (DQ, but not sure if chip lost. Think the issue was out-biking pro men on 2 laps)
2014 ITU Long Distance Worlds (lost chip (according to quoted comment from 2nd place finisher), ran 6:43/mile for 20km off a 4+ hour bike. Not normal.)
2015 IMC (lost chip, DQ)

I believe the above information is factual. Happy to be corrected.

Locals who say JM's course-cutting was a poorly kept secret may know of other 'not normal' performances.

Huh. She seems to have a lot of bad luck with losing chips. We should cut her some slack.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [alir] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
But again, that wouldn't change anything - it looks like his goal was to run Boston. He ran Boston. Retro DQ's don't change that.
JM is a different case because retro DQs for her would mean that other people would then become AG champions, etc.
So should Julie be DQ'd from the 2013 IMC if she cheated in it? She placed 10th in her AG in that race… I would guess the 11th place finisher would like the DQ to happen. She's been DQ'd from the 2014 Vancouver Half that she used to qualify for a race that she's already done, why DQ her from that race? You would say so somebody else can become an AG Champion. I agree she should be DQ'd from that race (as she was), but not just because she was the AG Champion, she cheated, she deserves the DQ. Are they going to send the new AG champion a trophy and hold a delayed awards ceremony? And that paycheck for winning that AG, oh, wait, there isn't one... Rossi finished 5th in his AG, do you think the value of moving from 6th to 5th is inconsequential? Or how about this, when it is clear someone cheated in an event, they are DQ'd, period! Or, would you prefer to be the one who assigns value to placement and arbitrarily decide who should be DQ'd and who shouldn't?


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
sharkbait_au wrote:
For those of you doing the JM dissertation :). Is there a current number for results where timing chips have been suspect/abnormal/lost etc?


In chronological order:

2013 IMC (lost chip, swam 58 mins, ran 3:42 marathon, both of which seem inconsistent with other swims/runs)
2014 Test of Metal MTB race (lost race number on front of bike, cut 25 mins off prior year's time)
2014 Vancouver Long Distance Triathlon (DQ, but not sure if chip lost. Think the issue was out-biking pro men on 2 laps)
2014 ITU Long Distance Worlds (lost chip (according to quoted comment from 2nd place finisher), ran 6:43/mile for 20km off a 4+ hour bike. Not normal.)
2015 IMC (lost chip, DQ)

I believe the above information is factual. Happy to be corrected.

Locals who say JM's course-cutting was a poorly kept secret may know of other 'not normal' performances.

2014 Long Course Worlds was apparently . Chip 'Issue' not a lost chip.

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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ In reply to ]
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to all:

a few of the comments in the last several posts are taking this thread off its original intended course (at least, my intended course when i replaced a previous thread with this one. accordingly, this thread would serve its purpose if:

1. we didn't heap scorn on top of scorn (i think we know how you feel without you writing what others have already written);
2. we keep from being amateur diagnosticians;
4. we keep to the facts. (unnamed "locals" are not expert witnesses. "not normal" is not a standard or proof for performances.)

this thread is for your continued discussion, comparing notes, offering actual sussed-out proof and new facts if you so choose. maybe a theoretical discussion of what our sport might want to do to formalize its response to certain in-race behaviors: losing chips, not following the prescribed course. are the current rules enough? (rules the allow for stiffer sanctions in the case of "repeat violations.") or do we need further rules?



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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So from a few posts from above, I gather the information we have is ...

In chronological order:

2013 IMC (lost chip, swam 58 mins, ran 3:42 marathon, both of which seem inconsistent with other swims/runs)
2014 Test of Metal MTB race (lost race number on front of bike, cut 25 mins off prior year's time)
2014 Vancouver Long Distance Triathlon (chip issue, DQ. Think the issue was out-biking pro men on 2 laps)
2014 ITU Long Distance Worlds (chip issue, ran 6:43/mile for 20km off a 4+ hour bike. Not normal.)
2015 IMC (lost chip, DQ)
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i looked hard at those WC results and unless i'm wrong victoria had the fastest female AG run of the day, all AGs. and she was 6min down on julie's run. i am very suspicious of this run. it makes no sense in the context of all her other results.

this, you may talk about. i hope you will talk about it. i hope the truth is found out about this WC race. this run split does not comport with all the rest of her results. further, her superhuman results are either in the bike, but not the run, or they're on the run, but not the bike. i have been in the sport since the beginning. i've seen it all. i've seen the entire arc of the sport. nobody ever has exhibited that kind of performance behavior while racing.

consequently, this deserves an explanation. i would like that china WC race thoroughly vetted, such results discussed right here. i hope you don't think i want to quash that discussion.

Dan, when I used the term "not normal" I did so in a similar context as you did above. I was pointing out that a 6:43/mile pace for 20km after a 4 hour bike was inconsistent with some of her stand alone (1:40-ish) half marathons. So I'm not sure why we can't say "not normal," but we can say "makes no sense in the context of all her other results". They seem, de facto, the same.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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perhaps i misunderstood. i had construed the "not normal" standard to be applied to various races not so far mentioned. if you're talking about the very fast run split at worlds, yes, this would be a run that might be construed by reasonable people out of character when applied against the standard of other performances

whether this person or other people, it has always been the moderating habit here to avoid the nebulous accusation.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the reminder, cheating gets me riled up, I'm considering law school in the future…

There is a discussion about Ms Miller on the FB group, "Ironman Canada": https://www.facebook.com/...4652684/?pnref=story where a "Sheena Harris" who competed in the 2013 IMC had this to say:
Quote:
2013 Ironman Canada Whistler (we both raced that year) I saw what I believe was Julie Miller cutting the run course. I was not surprised to find out after the fact she had no split time. (timing chip issues) I had no concrete evidence and it has bothered me since.
This year 2015 I had the opportunity to watch Miller race, I was on a corner for a duration of time where I would see Miller four times. I saw her once. She was given a 1st place spot to Kona with no T2 and no split time. This alarmed me and I was vocal about it because in the tri world NO CHIP = NO TIME. Miller told a hurtful story that I was a 'mean girl' spreading ugly rumours about her. As you can all imagine it was a very uncomfortable situation to be as I was attacked by her for stating what I saw.

My guess would be there are eye witnesses to many cheating/cheaters who don't come forward. Those that do get attacked as poor sports or their concerns are minimized.


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
maybe a theoretical discussion of what our sport might want to do to formalize its response to certain in-race behaviors


I would like to see 'a response'. As far as I am aware TriBC is a product if it's membership. When a complaint is made some form of communication should be instigated (which I did receive - both email and a telephone call) BUT then some form of ongoing dialogue should be ensured. What is happening? What has happened? Is the investigation ongoing or closed? What was the outcome? Was ITU informed? What are they doing about it?

(EDIT - TriBC recently submitted a newsletter intimating that the situation was being investigated, which is great.)

The same should apply to Triathlon Canada, British Triathlon and ITU. With something that important it seems a 'zero communication' policy is both detrimental to the members who think they just don't care and to the athlete in question who, instead of receiving a formal investigation and outcome from people (who have, know and understand the facts) is left open to ongoing social media scrutiny - where the punishment likely outweighs the crime

I don't feel the associations have protected athletes on either side of the fence. Either initially at the races, where the bulk of this course cutting nonsense should have not been allowed to happen and if it did then immediately stamped out. Or afterwards in the slow death by stoning of social media. Literally everyone is pissed off .... law abiding athletes, Miller, friends and colleagues of Miller. The people who i have spoken to who know Miller are both shocked at the data when explained and equally surprised that someone could do it in the first place and that there is nothing in place that could pick it up afterwards.

It should not be too difficult to look at this situation and eradicate further issues.

1. You are responsible for your chip and if you lose it then there is availability in T1 and T2 for a replacement (as with Ironman).
2. No chip, no result. And certainly no World Championship. How can you argue your way into first place at a World Championship? What other sport would allow that?
3. Timing mats .... no the RD can not save money by not having one at the turnaround. If you are USAT or TriBC / Canada or whatever affiliated and in any way beyond a local yokel type race ... raise the standards.
4. Complaint process should be in place and informative.

As I mentioned previously .. some organsiations make money from their reputation, they all dealt with this matter reasonably quickly, with seriousness and communication - Ossenbrink, Ironman, Sportstats - the people that should have dictated the outcome seem either not to have been at the party or ignored the member(s) lodging the complaint.

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Last edited by: JayPeeWhy: Sep 2, 15 13:38
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, agreed - as you can see, I first used the term "not normal" with reference to the 2014 ITU Worlds performance. I was not suggesting any 'locals' should come here with conjecture, but rather they might reference other official race results which may be inconsistent with her normal results.

Per the ITU Worlds run, I wonder what the "issue" with the chip was? If it failed to pick up any run lap or run turn-around point splits, but there was a finish time, does this make it harder for the ITU to DQ her? In other words, if there were one or two unusual lap times (like the Vancouver bike laps), then I assume they would have DQ'd her already, so presumably there were no run lap splits at all. It would be interesting to know exactly what the 'issue' with her chip was at that race. If any of the other podium finishers who were there are reading this and willing to offer their knowledge, that would be helpful.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
hmm? Odd. I can't even get on to Evernote's website, so I guess it's a problem my end. I was able to access the links before.
I also made sure they mirrored onto archive.org, so you can access them there if they happen to go offline. Call me paranoid.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
to all:

a few of the comments in the last several posts are taking this thread off its original intended course (at least, my intended course when i replaced a previous thread with this one. accordingly, this thread would serve its purpose if:

1. we didn't heap scorn on top of scorn (i think we know how you feel without you writing what others have already written);
2. we keep from being amateur diagnosticians;
4. we keep to the facts. (unnamed "locals" are not expert witnesses. "not normal" is not a standard or proof for performances.)

this thread is for your continued discussion, comparing notes, offering actual sussed-out proof and new facts if you so choose. maybe a theoretical discussion of what our sport might want to do to formalize its response to certain in-race behaviors: losing chips, not following the prescribed course. are the current rules enough? (rules the allow for stiffer sanctions in the case of "repeat violations.") or do we need further rules?

I don't believe that the current rules are enough. I think in the case of verifiable, blatant cheating, then bans similar to doping should be enforced. A single DQ doesn't seem to have much deterrent effect, it would seem. I have made inquiries with both USAT and WTC about the process for requesting a rules change for just this purpose.

Spot

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sharkbait_au] [ In reply to ]
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"2013 IMC (lost chip, swam 58 mins, ran 3:42 marathon, both of which seem inconsistent with other swims/runs)"

I'd also like to point out that when she lost her chip she also 'lost' a watch.. perhaps a GPS watch?

In one of the photos on FinisherPix you can see what appears to be her timing chip and a watch on both wrists and then in other photos the chip is gone and the watch is also gone.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tonythetriguy wrote:
My guess would be there are eye witnesses to many cheating/cheaters who don't come forward. Those that do get attacked as poor sports or their concerns are minimized.

This seems to be something that we need to change. Right now many RD's, and apparently governing bodies, act as if the person who reports potential cheating is the person in the wrong. And often when someone notices something is off in person there is also some sort of oddity in the splits or timing. That should raise some red flags and cause further investigation but usually it does not (except for WTC races now timed by Sportsstats).

Cheating doesn't happen often but we know it does. RD's and governing bodies need to be open to a system where a complaint can be raised and results investigated. I get that no one wants to have that uncomfortable confrontation, but that is part of their role. If you don't want to have accurate results don't have timing. Then we can just be a mud run and not a race.

We are so fucked.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
tonythetriguy wrote:

My guess would be there are eye witnesses to many cheating/cheaters who don't come forward. Those that do get attacked as poor sports or their concerns are minimized.


This seems to be something that we need to change. Right now many RD's, and apparently governing bodies, act as if the person who reports potential cheating is the person in the wrong. And often when someone notices something is off in person there is also some sort of oddity in the splits or timing. That should raise some red flags and cause further investigation but usually it does not (except for WTC races now timed by Sportsstats).

Cheating doesn't happen often but we know it does. RD's and governing bodies need to be open to a system where a complaint can be raised and results investigated. I get that no one wants to have that uncomfortable confrontation, but that is part of their role. If you don't want to have accurate results don't have timing. Then we can just be a mud run and not a race.

x2. Yes. This. USAT/WTC need to include a formal complaint procedure in their rules clearly spelled out, included in athlete guide for races, etc.



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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Daynalee] [ In reply to ]
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I think it is also fascinating that the athlete appears to have lost the Blue IM Wrist Band for sections of the run course. In some photos she is wearing a Garmin GPS watch and you'll notice no signs of the wrist band. It could be covered by the second watch, but it does look like it is missing.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [SasquatchRuns] [ In reply to ]
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SasquatchRuns wrote:
I think it is also fascinating that the athlete appears to have lost the Blue IM Wrist Band for sections of the run course. In some photos she is wearing a Garmin GPS watch and you'll notice no signs of the wrist band. It could be covered by the second watch, but it does look like it is missing.

I suspect it's under the watch in those pictures. There is certainly no photo where there is nothing on her right wrist.

It is odd though how the GPS watch switches from the left wrist to the right wrist and then disappears (either given to someone off course or, as a couple photos may suggest, put down her top).

I suppose an explanation might be: she started with both watches on her left wrist, and then when that was uncomfortable she moved the GPS to her right wrist, and then when the battery died she took it off altogether. Who knows, and I'm not sure what the order of the pics is, but I don't think there is much information you can deduce from those pictures.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [highflyer] [ In reply to ]
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Cameras are so cheap now, there's no reason a GoPro can't be set up with a volunteer at a turn around or any suspect point. Even at 5 fps or something. That's basically what happened with Rossi - there was a photographer on the bridge and with so many runners he basically took a video stream.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [NJSteve] [ In reply to ]
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I think it had/has more to do with Lehigh Valley being a non-profit. Let's just say they get sued, how do you explain that to your Board of Directors? The marathon is not their main mission, it is simply a way to raise funds. My guess is Mr. Rossi's lawyer had a nice conversation with attorney's for the non-profit who told the RD to stay out of it.

NJSteve wrote:
alir wrote:
NJSteve wrote:


I think people take the safest course (not necessarily the easiest). Look at the Lehigh Valley Marathon race director. It was clear that Rossi cheated, but she (RD) wanted nothing to do with the right choice. So we are left to believe she is either too weak or too influenced to make the right decision.


Something I've never understood about the Rossi thing is why everyone is so keen to have the Lehigh Valley result DQ'd. Surely it's irrelevant? If it had all come out before Boston, then getting him officially DQ'd would have meant that he couldn't run Boston. But it all came out after he had run Boston, so where is the pay off?

I don't blame Lehigh Valley for not wanting to get involved given that there was nothing to gain (for anyone) except the lawyers.


I guess I just think everyone (including RDs who earn a living off of this) should do what is right and not what is easy.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Khyron] [ In reply to ]
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Cameras are cheap, but the human resource to go through and analyze all of that isn't. Sportstats said that, at one race he did, there were 30+ people who were DQ due irregular splits. He also mentioned about how busy they are during and after the race. Imagine that they spend 1 hour, per athlete, reviewing and analyzing the the data. Then, you just say can't verbally that you saw strange things at x minutes. You have to write up your finding formally, if the athlete decide to protest. What if the athlete then say, "show me the video! " You would then have to spend time retrieving it and showing it to the athlete. That takes time and human resource also. By the time you are done, say only 5 athletes protested, you could be spending 3-4 hours per athlete gathering an documenting all the artifacts. Perhaps WTC can absorb the extra cost/manpower to analyze the pics, timestamps, etc. Those smaller races, where are they going to get the money from?

Khyron wrote:
Cameras are so cheap now, there's no reason a GoPro can't be set up with a volunteer at a turn around or any suspect point. Even at 5 fps or something. That's basically what happened with Rossi - there was a photographer on the bridge and with so many runners he basically took a video stream.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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JayPeeWhy wrote:
It should not be too difficult to look at this situation and eradicate further issues.

1. You are responsible for your chip and if you lose it then there is availability in T1 and T2 for a replacement (as with Ironman).
2. No chip, no result. And certainly no World Championship. How can you argue your way into first place at a World Championship? What other sport would allow that?
3. Timing mats .... no the RD can not save money by not having one at the turnaround. If you are USAT or TriBC / Canada or whatever affiliated and in any way beyond a local yokel type race ... raise the standards.
4. Complaint process should be in place and informative.


Agree completely. To this I would add that the burden of proof needs to be placed on the athlete to prove they ran the whole course. Under normal circumstances, this is done via the timing chip. When that fails for whatever reason (lost chip, malfunction, etc.), make it incumbent upon the athlete to prove they ran the course. I know this will leave out those individuals who do not race with/have a garmin, but under the rules "no chip = no time."
Last edited by: timbasile: Sep 2, 15 10:17
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [jwbeuk] [ In reply to ]
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I think it had/has more to do with Lehigh Valley being a non-profit. Let's just say they get sued, how do you explain that to your Board of Directors? The marathon is not their main mission, it is simply a way to raise funds. My guess is Mr. Rossi's lawyer had a nice conversation with attorney's for the non-profit who told the RD to stay out of it.

Yes - many races, even mid-sized to "big" ones, are run by a very lean operation behind the scenes. There is a mistaken belief that endurance sports events are massive money makers and even, "cash cows". I can assure you that they are not.

This IS a concern, for many races - the legal Lawyer fees alone could sink them, a ruling going against, them could be personally financially devastating.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Sep 2, 15 12:14
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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zoom wrote:
Cameras are cheap, but the human resource to go through and analyze all of that isn't. Sportstats said that, at one race he did, there were 30+ people who were DQ due irregular splits. He also mentioned about how busy they are during and after the race. Imagine that they spend 1 hour, per athlete, reviewing and analyzing the the data. Then, you just say can't verbally that you saw strange things at x minutes. You have to write up your finding formally, if the athlete decide to protest. What if the athlete then say, "show me the video! " You would then have to spend time retrieving it and showing it to the athlete. That takes time and human resource also. By the time you are done, say only 5 athletes protested, you could be spending 3-4 hours per athlete gathering an documenting all the artifacts. Perhaps WTC can absorb the extra cost/manpower to analyze the pics, timestamps, etc. Those smaller races, where are they going to get the money from?

Khyron wrote:
Cameras are so cheap now, there's no reason a GoPro can't be set up with a volunteer at a turn around or any suspect point. Even at 5 fps or something. That's basically what happened with Rossi - there was a photographer on the bridge and with so many runners he basically took a video stream.

I would submit that it would be 0 labor other than uploading the video, like a public record. Let the other competitors do the analysis if they're suspicious or curious. It would also put to bed a lot of wrongful accusations as well. "I think Bob cut the course...<watches video>... Oh there he is, never mind - I'm an idiot".

One of the obstacle races did that - it was a single video, 8 hrs long and you could jump to whatever time you want and see for yourself. If that was the turn around on a road race it would be great, and easier to setup than a timing mat. Also don't disregard the reduction in cheating if people know there are random cameras that other racers can look at later.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Khyron] [ In reply to ]
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I really like this idea, even putting aside the cheating deterrent.

It was nice to get the race video after doing my first Ironman in Whistler, but to have been able to see other videos and find myself through the course of the race would've been cool.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [jet black] [ In reply to ]
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jet black wrote:

This is a great long term solution, but it will take some time to implement. The immediate solution is to just DQ if you lose your chip or miss a timing mat, unless you can provide GPS proof you did the whole course.

Not defending her at all, but this falls right in line with court of public opinions saying of "Guilty until proven innocent", and I don't agree with it. I don't ever cheat with any intent myself, but I also don't use any GPS device when I race. I feel as though making sure each individual completes a course should be incurred by the race organization through chips, timing mats or the like. I shouldn't have to incur personal costs to do their job.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Khyron] [ In reply to ]
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Khyron wrote:
zoom wrote:
Cameras are cheap, but the human resource to go through and analyze all of that isn't. Sportstats said that, at one race he did, there were 30+ people who were DQ due irregular splits. He also mentioned about how busy they are during and after the race. Imagine that they spend 1 hour, per athlete, reviewing and analyzing the the data. Then, you just say can't verbally that you saw strange things at x minutes. You have to write up your finding formally, if the athlete decide to protest. What if the athlete then say, "show me the video! " You would then have to spend time retrieving it and showing it to the athlete. That takes time and human resource also. By the time you are done, say only 5 athletes protested, you could be spending 3-4 hours per athlete gathering an documenting all the artifacts. Perhaps WTC can absorb the extra cost/manpower to analyze the pics, timestamps, etc. Those smaller races, where are they going to get the money from?

Khyron wrote:
Cameras are so cheap now, there's no reason a GoPro can't be set up with a volunteer at a turn around or any suspect point. Even at 5 fps or something. That's basically what happened with Rossi - there was a photographer on the bridge and with so many runners he basically took a video stream.


I would submit that it would be 0 labor other than uploading the video, like a public record. Let the other competitors do the analysis if they're suspicious or curious. It would also put to bed a lot of wrongful accusations as well. "I think Bob cut the course...<watches video>... Oh there he is, never mind - I'm an idiot".

One of the obstacle races did that - it was a single video, 8 hrs long and you could jump to whatever time you want and see for yourself. If that was the turn around on a road race it would be great, and easier to setup than a timing mat. Also don't disregard the reduction in cheating if people know there are random cameras that other racers can look at later.


And with GoPro having a relationship with WTC you would think they could just borrow some marketing samples.. I've suggested GoPro's out on the course before as it seems like a very easy answer to many of these issues. No Chip and not seen on the wide angle cameras... then you weren't there.

and maybe this was discussed before, but doesn't the fact that Julie as an identical twin (or nearly identical twin) allow for far more plausible answers to mismatched photos/clothing/bands, etc? (I'm sure this was somewhere in the thread, I just missed it.) My statement is based on this article in the Squamish Reporter from May 25, 2015 "Lisa and Julie have been indistinguishable-and inseparable-since they were born 40 years ago in Ontario."
http://www.squamishreporter.com/...-of-us/#.Vec17TZRGUk



______________________________________________
Team JFT, Seattle, WA
Last edited by: gregtay: Sep 2, 15 10:47
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [gregtay] [ In reply to ]
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You should keep conjecture that her twin was in any way complicit off this thread.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Khyron] [ In reply to ]
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Let's say I'm the time keeper/RD. You got flagged as cutting the course. I DQ you. You go and find the video link that I uploaded to tell me that, "if you look in the upper left hand corner of the video 1 and 3, you can see me run by." Well, someone has to go and dig up that video to analyze whether your statement is correct or not ... that's not 0 labor. Say I have 2 cameras out on the run course and 3 on the bike course at key turn points. That's potentially 2 videos that I have to upload and then analyze if you decide to protest your DQ. Now, if I want to be really thorough, I may want to do a sanity check on the other 3 videos to make sure that you were seen. Multiply this by 5-10 athletes, which Sportstats said was on the low side, and all of a sudden you are spending a lot of manpower.

Then, there's the cost of hosting those video on a server somewhere for long periods of time. The cost may be minimal, but there is now a new cost that I have to worry about. Like I said, doable for WTC ... not so much for smaller races where they are already at the margins.

Khyron wrote:
zoom wrote:
Cameras are cheap, but the human resource to go through and analyze all of that isn't. Sportstats said that, at one race he did, there were 30+ people who were DQ due irregular splits. He also mentioned about how busy they are during and after the race. Imagine that they spend 1 hour, per athlete, reviewing and analyzing the the data. Then, you just say can't verbally that you saw strange things at x minutes. You have to write up your finding formally, if the athlete decide to protest. What if the athlete then say, "show me the video! " You would then have to spend time retrieving it and showing it to the athlete. That takes time and human resource also. By the time you are done, say only 5 athletes protested, you could be spending 3-4 hours per athlete gathering an documenting all the artifacts. Perhaps WTC can absorb the extra cost/manpower to analyze the pics, timestamps, etc. Those smaller races, where are they going to get the money from?

Khyron wrote:
Cameras are so cheap now, there's no reason a GoPro can't be set up with a volunteer at a turn around or any suspect point. Even at 5 fps or something. That's basically what happened with Rossi - there was a photographer on the bridge and with so many runners he basically took a video stream.


I would submit that it would be 0 labor other than uploading the video, like a public record. Let the other competitors do the analysis if they're suspicious or curious. It would also put to bed a lot of wrongful accusations as well. "I think Bob cut the course...<watches video>... Oh there he is, never mind - I'm an idiot".

One of the obstacle races did that - it was a single video, 8 hrs long and you could jump to whatever time you want and see for yourself. If that was the turn around on a road race it would be great, and easier to setup than a timing mat. Also don't disregard the reduction in cheating if people know there are random cameras that other racers can look at later.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
You should keep conjecture that her twin was in any way complicit off this thread.

Got it, didn't realize that was a touchy subject. thx


______________________________________________
Team JFT, Seattle, WA
Last edited by: gregtay: Sep 2, 15 11:00
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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one thing i would like to know about weihai. i have heard that it was very challenging trying to get reliable split data, laps data. also, there are a lot of T2 times missing from the results.

my questions are:

1. was the only anomaly the lack of T2 splits?
2. was there a timing wire that was insensitive or avoided by athletes in their route in our out of T2, causing that T2 time to be lumped in with bike or run splits?
3. if so, do we know whether it was the in wire or out wire?
4. do we have a lot of good garmin or other data suggesting that the splits, notwithstanding the T2 problem, were good? or do we have good individual microelectronic data that casts doubt on the splits in the results?

what i'm asking in #4 above is whether anybody looked at his or her garmin, looked at his or her posted splits on the ITU website, and said, "good grief, while that was my final finish time they got my splits all wrong."

anybody who actually did weihai, i'd love a PM or email to me telling me your own personal FACT-BASED view of the questions above.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Multiply this by 5-10 athletes, which Sportstats said was on the low side, and all of a sudden you are spending a lot of manpower.
I might be mistaken, but I believe it was said that they DQ at least that many by just striking them from the results based on abnormalities, but seldom have a protest from one of the DQ'd athletes. Once it becomes known that cameras are being utilized on course, less cheating will go on. Yes, there will be some extra work, but a lot less of a headache for someone like Lehigh Valley Marathon if they had had video cameras or more timing mats for their 2014 race! With time stamped video and the ability to go to a specific time at a specific point during a race, it wouldn't take much time at all, if somebody that is DQ'd protests.

I still think this is a money making opportunity for somebody. I have the skills to do it, just not at a point financially/personally to take it on! Dropcams with cellular data connections uploading data at random "checkpoints". Large tethered helium balloons getting a birds eye view. I'm predicting timing loops/chips will be replaced with facial recognition and possibly OCR for bib numbers or QR codes on bib numbers. I can setup a camera a lot faster than a timing loop/mat!


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zoom] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
zoom wrote:
Let's say I'm the time keeper/RD. You got flagged as cutting the course. I DQ you. You go and find the video link that I uploaded to tell me that, "if you look in the upper left hand corner of the video 1 and 3, you can see me run by." Well, someone has to go and dig up that video to analyze whether your statement is correct or not ... that's not 0 labor. Say I have 2 cameras out on the run course and 3 on the bike course at key turn points. That's potentially 2 videos that I have to upload and then analyze if you decide to protest your DQ. Now, if I want to be really thorough, I may want to do a sanity check on the other 3 videos to make sure that you were seen. Multiply this by 5-10 athletes, which Sportstats said was on the low side, and all of a sudden you are spending a lot of manpower.

Then, there's the cost of hosting those video on a server somewhere for long periods of time. The cost may be minimal, but there is now a new cost that I have to worry about. Like I said, doable for WTC ... not so much for smaller races where they are already at the margins.

Or the RD could get a couple of teenage volunteers to sit under an umbrella just prior to each turnaround, armed with two clipboards and a list of race numbers. Someone comes by with a visible race number, they get crossed off each list. Someone without a visible race number gets yelled prior to the turnaround at to produce the number (unfold it, yell it, whatever) when they come back after the turnaround. Next step up is to have each volunteer write down the numbers so you get an ordering. Next step would be to have each volunteer write down the number while someone else calls out the current race time, so you get a timestamp ordering.

Not every problem needs a high-tech, high-cost solution.

----------------------------------
"i disagree with your analysis [or judgment], nevertheless you have the responsibility of moderating this board so i honor your authority to make the moderating decisions."
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tonythetriguy wrote:
Quote:
Multiply this by 5-10 athletes, which Sportstats said was on the low side, and all of a sudden you are spending a lot of manpower.

I still think this is a money making opportunity for somebody. I have the skills to do it, just not at a point financially/personally to take it on! Dropcams with cellular data connections uploading data at random "checkpoints". Large tethered helium balloons getting a birds eye view. I'm predicting timing loops/chips will be replaced with facial recognition and possibly OCR for bib numbers or QR codes on bib numbers. I can setup a camera a lot faster than a timing loop/mat!

And then a front comes through with 20-30mph winds and rain...

----------------------------------
"i disagree with your analysis [or judgment], nevertheless you have the responsibility of moderating this board so i honor your authority to make the moderating decisions."
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [gregtay] [ In reply to ]
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gregtay wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
You should keep conjecture that her twin was in any way complicit off this thread.

Got it, didn't realize that was a touchy subject. thx

I think the apprehension about bringing in her sister was that they didn't want others to be brought in without proof of culpability. The previous thread devolved into "OMG! She has a twin sister, they must be in cahoots!" without any reasonable analysis to suggest that her sister was even involved beyond the role of supporter. The key here, I believe, was conjecture without evidence.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
You should keep conjecture that her twin was in any way complicit off this thread.
I believe this is exactly what ST does not want in this thread.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
tonythetriguy wrote:
Quote:
Multiply this by 5-10 athletes, which Sportstats said was on the low side, and all of a sudden you are spending a lot of manpower.

I still think this is a money making opportunity for somebody. I have the skills to do it, just not at a point financially/personally to take it on! Dropcams with cellular data connections uploading data at random "checkpoints". Large tethered helium balloons getting a birds eye view. I'm predicting timing loops/chips will be replaced with facial recognition and possibly OCR for bib numbers or QR codes on bib numbers. I can setup a camera a lot faster than a timing loop/mat!


And then a front comes through with 20-30mph winds and rain...

Pretty normal for triathletes to have a hardware solution to a software problem.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Ty] [ In reply to ]
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Ty wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
You should keep conjecture that her twin was in any way complicit off this thread.

I believe this is exactly what ST does not want in this thread.
As I said...
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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timbasile wrote:
gregtay wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
You should keep conjecture that her twin was in any way complicit off this thread.

Got it, didn't realize that was a touchy subject. thx


I think the apprehension about bringing in her sister was that they didn't want others to be brought in without proof of culpability. The previous thread devolved into "OMG! She has a twin sister, they must be in cahoots!" without any reasonable analysis to suggest that her sister was even involved beyond the role of supporter. The key here, I believe, was conjecture without evidence.

Got it, and I can understand that. I missed the other thread so I apologize for that.


______________________________________________
Team JFT, Seattle, WA
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
There is a mistaken belief that endurance sports events are massive money makes and even "cash cows". I can assure you that they are not.

Not EVERY race is operated by the Evil Rock & Roll Backwards Hosewater Slave Labor Marathon Empire

As for the whole "Body Is A Temple" thing? Well, many ancient deities often enjoyed offerings of Sweets and Intoxicants
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
And then a front comes through with 20-30mph winds and rain...

With conditions like that, over an extended period, would someone still be very concerned about winning their AG or KQ, when sheer survival is in question?

Actually, in a case like that, cutting the course my not be legal but possibly more prudent, just to get home as quickly as possible

I could be wrong

As for the whole "Body Is A Temple" thing? Well, many ancient deities often enjoyed offerings of Sweets and Intoxicants
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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RandMart wrote:
klehner wrote:
And then a front comes through with 20-30mph winds and rain...


With conditions like that, over an extended period, would someone still be very concerned about winning their AG or KQ, when sheer survival is in question?

Actually, in a case like that, cutting the course my not be legal but possibly more prudent, just to get home as quickly as possible

I could be wrong

You're right. If, for no other reason, you don't want your chip falling off in the wind and rain.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [NJSteve] [ In reply to ]
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NJSteve wrote:
You're right. If, for no other reason, you don't want your chip falling off in the wind and rain.

We make these; they survived some pretty decent dust shower in the Middle East, they could be used to keep track even in heavy weather

http://www.army-technology.com/...detection-system-us/



They're fairly large, though

As for the whole "Body Is A Temple" thing? Well, many ancient deities often enjoyed offerings of Sweets and Intoxicants
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.tribc.org/latest_news





STATEMENT ON CONDUCT OF PROVINCIAL ATHLETE

Triathlon BC has been made aware of allegations against a provincial athlete’s conduct while participating in sanctioned events in BC.
Triathlon BC unequivocally supports fair and ethical competition, and believes it is a fundamental premise of all sports. Our Fairplay Policy espouses respect, responsibility and integrity among all participants as its framing statement, and expects all competitors to be honorable in their relationships with other participants. Triathlon BC’s Fair Play Policy can be found on our website.
Triathlon BC is investigating these allegations with due diligence. Out of respect for fairness to all parties involved, Triathlon BC will only comment on, and communicate final decisions.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
SasquatchRuns wrote:
I think it is also fascinating that the athlete appears to have lost the Blue IM Wrist Band for sections of the run course. In some photos she is wearing a Garmin GPS watch and you'll notice no signs of the wrist band. It could be covered by the second watch, but it does look like it is missing.


I suspect it's under the watch in those pictures.