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Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life...
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I wasn't up at the 70.3 WCs at MT today but read about the drafting. I've been to 4 WTC WC events (Kona twice and the 70.3s twice--Clearwater and Vegas) so that plus my reading of all of the ST posts on drafting at these events is what I'm leaning on for the following observations (and to be clear, I'm very much BOP at the WC races and so I generally have no one to draft off of even if I wanted to so in a sense, I'm just speculating here):

- I do think most folks in triathlon, especially those who spend enough time to get good enough at it to race at the WC level (but who are not pro and don't make any money from this activity) are people who believe in rules and who are not cheaters. This includes the drafting rule(s).

- In most races, these folks in fact follow the rules pretty much to the letter. (I know there are some who don't but I'm talking about the majority here)

- However, at Kona especially, and at most 70.3WC venues (Las Vegas was different) there are so many athletes racing that are so close to each other in ability on the Swim/Bike, and the Bike course is relatively tame, that it becomes very difficult not to violate the drafting rules (when 20 people pass you and you have to drop back and then go 1.2-1.4X your goal power to get back to where you were--only to have to repeat---this becomes a challenge to just accept)

-These folks adapt to the situation and then begin to bend the rules because everyone else is doing the same and the alternative of playing by the strict letter of the rules seems inherently unfair and is competitively very costly.

-So draft packs form--a statistical analysis of swim exit times and prior bike splits leads one to believe it's inevitable.

-The refs do as good a job as they can but you're talking about policing 2000-3000 people in a dynamic environment where that policing requires observation under sometimes challenging conditions and always requires judgement--which is inherently different for each ref.

-Competitors who see this and are upset about this either complain about those "drafting" or the refs or the lack of refs.

My view is that drafting at the WTC WC level is pretty much a given, even with good intent on most people's part and lots of referees, unless we go to a very different start approach (TT for example). The changes at Kona this year for AGers reflect a bit of this viewpoint...

So our options are to:

--accept it as a design flaw of the WTC WC and especially Kona (not saying to not police it but recognize that it will happen)

--accept it period--don't police it.

-make some significant changes in swim start format (people at Kona are so good you could spread the start out over 3-4 hours--old people first)

-boycott it

-something else?

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure it needs to be a fact of life, but this is what I posted in the other thread. By the way, what I saw today was far worse than anything I have seen in Kona. In the end it is on the riders.

Tomorrow I will post my race report when there will be more details.

I think there were elements of the drafting that were worse than Clearwater. But those of us who know the course (I have done all three 70.3's in Tremblant and all three 140.6's) know that if you put that many age groupers between 3.8W per kilo and 4.4 W per kilo on the course, there is not a single hill in the first 70K that is steep enough or long enough to break things up naturally, so then you need more motos. In a regular 70.3 or Ironman, being a 4 - 4.2 W per kilo rider, I can ride up in the top 5-10 in my age group and largely solo. But at 70.3 world's you have 100 guys like me were are in that position in their local race.

I actually had an excellent discussion post race with both Jimmy Riccitello and Yann Therrien the head official for Triathlon Quebec, and also with Marc Roy on the limitations for road closures and wave spacing. I am too tired to share all the details now. There are many things that could be done on all sides to improve things, and it is a bit of everything that adds up to make things bad. In the end, athletes have to decide for themselves how they want to race. The choice is binary...get the race you deserve for your own fitness and let fellow competitors fly up the road on other wheels, or fly up the road on other wheels and have a better placement.

No surprise, I chose the "let them fly up the road on other wheels". More to come tomorrow.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
In the end, athletes have to decide for themselves how they want to race. The choice is binary...get the race you deserve for your own fitness and let fellow competitors fly up the road on other wheels, or fly up the road on other wheels and have a better placement.

No surprise, I chose the "let them fly up the road on other wheels". More to come tomorrow.

Paul, in my limed experience I agree. The choice is up to the athlete. I wonder what kind of person shamelessly drafts for miles and miles in a race. I can understand the logic (while disagreeing with the ethics) of doing so when you are a pro and money is on the line.

BUT AS AN AG??? Who cheats willfully at a race? Pretty much the same type of person who purposely cuts the course on a small town 10K race.

BUT once again in my limited experience I think that there is drafting and there is DRAFTING.


I have been to some races where they are points of congestion on the bike course where for a albeit brief time (maybe 2 to 3 minutes max) there is NOWHERE to go. I have had riders stacked 3 across in front that I cant pass and a log jam of bikes up my but so slowing down with any significant level is a less than safe option. When this happens I extricate myself from the situation ASAP. I am a MIP AG that is probably never gona win anything. I like working hard for what I get and my kids come to all the races I do and participate in junior races. I do not want to cheat or be perceived as one.

So in closing the guy who intentionally cuts 50 meters or 2 K on a 10K run is cheating PERIOD no matter how far.

HOWEVER I don't think being stuck behind pack of bikes with a bunch more up your rear on a hairy decent for 90 seconds is on the same level as the course cutter or the guy or gall who drafts for miles like a team TT event.

JMHO

PS, I look forward to your race report.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:
- However, at Kona especially, and at most 70.3WC venues (Las Vegas was different) there are so many athletes racing that are so close to each other in ability on the Swim/Bike, and the Bike course is relatively tame, that it becomes very difficult not to violate the drafting rules (when 20 people pass you and you have to drop back and then go 1.2-1.4X your goal power to get back to where you were--only to have to repeat---this becomes a challenge to just accept)

When 20 people pass you, they are going faster than you and you don't have to slow down at all. In fact, you need to exert less power to maintain your speed because of the draft effect of all these people: it's a free rest break. Unfortunately, people seem to think that they have to maintain their effort when being passed, which due to the draft means they instantly go faster (and join the group).

You are a faster biker than I, you've done far more long course races, and I'm guessing you don't violate the drafting rules. I wonder why that is?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Swwms likw we agree Dev--I don't think drafting is inherent or "needs" to be a fact of life at Kona anthe 70.3WC. I don think given how these races are right now it's pretty much what we'll get every time. If we want something different, then things have to be designed differently....

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:
Swwms likw we agree Dev--I don't think drafting is inherent or "needs" to be a fact of life at Kona anthe 70.3WC. I don think given how these races are right now it's pretty much what we'll get every time. If we want something different, then things have to be designed differently....

  1. You need 2 lanes wide road for the entire ride
  2. You need 6-8 min between waves
  3. You need multiple waves for the large age groups
  4. Within each wave you have a rolling start by race number
  5. Need to design T2 so that pros can come in from the bike while age groupers are still heading out which allows for longer wave separation.
  6. Give out at least 2 penalties for every pack. No warnings. If you are in a pack just be assured that it is no warning


I BELIEVE that most of our peers want a fair race, but when the race becomes unfair, they lean towards engaging in the arms race..."if the other guy is going to have nukes so am I" type of thinking.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:

  1. You need 2 lanes wide road for the entire ride
  2. You need 6-8 min between waves
  3. You need multiple waves for the large age groups
  4. Within each wave you have a rolling start by race number
  5. Need to design T2 so that pros can come in from the bike while age groupers are still heading out which allows for longer wave separation.
  6. Give out at least 2 penalties for every pack. No warnings. If you are in a pack just be assured that it is no warning.
Yes you need all that.

OR

You need ONE head referee who is willing and able to do his job and enforce the rules.
Unfortunately, all we have is Jimmy R. and his astonishing ability to be "surprised" by all the drafting weekend after weekend, year after year.
Sad story, but 100th repetition does not make it less awkward
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I BELIEVE that most of our peers want a fair race, but when the race becomes unfair, they lean towards engaging in the arms race..."if the other guy is going to have nukes so am I" type of thinking.

I think this is a clear lack of integrity on the part of some of the competitors. There was a guy (I still remember his bib number) that I had to pass a few times because he would follow the draft packs, get spat out a bit later before I overtook him again.

I don't really care about the results and placing to be honest but I do not like the draft packs for safety reasons first. When they were going past me, a few guys would overtake by the right and passing by very close. Also with everyone on the aerobars, if one goes done it becomes ten pin bowling at speeds of 40mph on the descents...

The only solution is a few massive DQ for a few races and everyone will stay away from each other. I mean if you wanted to give a penalty to everyone yesterday, you would have had to set up the banquet tent on the 117.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [Jamie] [ In reply to ]
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I agree that it is almost impossible to not draft for a few seconds here and there, which isn't really a big deal. However, when people can control it then there is no excuse and they should be penalized. During Toughman Half yesterday I had an interesting experience with this and was wondering if actually saying something to riders on the course would make a difference or would it just cause a fight!
My question is this:
If you are riding and maintaining a certain target power (for my case was ~210) you will pass A lot of people ahead of you that are holding less power (especially when you are a weak swimmer like me). Why is it that when you pass many people on a bike they don't drop back, instead draft for 30 seconds, repass you, and then resume there lower power causing you to play a game with them?

Being a very slow swimmer this happened to me many times yesterday and was driving me nuts. I think that although this would be almost impossible for a ref to catch it should be considered drafting. Inevitably the only thing I could do to get away from some people was to have a big surge (which probably helped me anyway but also helped them to an extent).
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Ken, if you're question is why do I choose not to draft, it's because it's against the rules. I made my choice long ago and am proud to say I've done 146 triathlons and never had a penalty.

From a practical perspective, in most local races, I'm in the last or near last wave, and when I get out of the water there are two types of cyclists in front of me. Fast ones who have a 3+++ minute head start and I never see them in the race or slow(ish) ones,which are of no advantage for me to draft. In the few races that I'm in the first wave then generally I'm riding off the front.

In big races like Kona, I'm a MOP or BOP guy and I am generally no where near the crowds. I'm generally in the top 2-5% of cyclists in local races, 10-15% in WTC races but at Kona I'm in the bottom 25%. I'm in the bottom 40% in the swim but because I miss the big draft trains there and I choose not to draft my bike is actually relatively worse than my swim....and you know how I swim.

For strong swimmers/cyclists, the guys who are competitive at Kona, you either have to draft or pay an enormous competitive penalty. I feel sorry for folks in that situation who have good intentions.

"Lucky" for me I'm not good enough to have to face the temptation very often...

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:
Hey Ken, if you're question is why do I choose not to draft, it's because it's against the rules.

I'm sure that is why you don't draft. No doubt in my mind in your case. But you said "that it becomes very difficult not to violate the drafting rules": if indeed one doesn't draft because it is against the rules, then it really isn't difficult not to violate the drafting rules.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I understand the issues with drafting at these events where there are so many fast folks. I understand wanting to compete at the WCs and do well. I guess I would just like to see more of my fellow triathletes admitting that this is a major problem with these events and that they feel dirty joining the drafting trains. Although there are exceptions such as the threads here, the majority of stuff I read on social media from fast folks doing WTC events consists of boasts about new PRs and/or high AG placings, without even a mention that the drafting train helped. But I guess that is what WTC is selling to the fast folks these days...
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Sep 8, 14 7:28
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Where is the option to increase enforcement? Blanket the course in motorcycles and these packs will remarkably dissipate. Make it clear that discretion and leniency will be exhibited in the first 10 miles when the density is high. But, at least at championship events, put enough police out there to sufficiently police the race.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:
I wasn't up at the 70.3 WCs at MT today but read about the drafting. I've been to 4 WTC WC events (Kona twice and the 70.3s twice--Clearwater and Vegas) so that plus my reading of all of the ST posts on drafting at these events is what I'm leaning on for the following observations (and to be clear, I'm very much BOP at the WC races and so I generally have no one to draft off of even if I wanted to so in a sense, I'm just speculating here):

- I do think most folks in triathlon, especially those who spend enough time to get good enough at it to race at the WC level (but who are not pro and don't make any money from this activity) are people who believe in rules and who are not cheaters. This includes the drafting rule(s).

- In most races, these folks in fact follow the rules pretty much to the letter. (I know there are some who don't but I'm talking about the majority here)

- However, at Kona especially, and at most 70.3WC venues (Las Vegas was different) there are so many athletes racing that are so close to each other in ability on the Swim/Bike, and the Bike course is relatively tame, that it becomes very difficult not to violate the drafting rules (when 20 people pass you and you have to drop back and then go 1.2-1.4X your goal power to get back to where you were--only to have to repeat---this becomes a challenge to just accept)

-These folks adapt to the situation and then begin to bend the rules because everyone else is doing the same and the alternative of playing by the strict letter of the rules seems inherently unfair and is competitively very costly.

-So draft packs form--a statistical analysis of swim exit times and prior bike splits leads one to believe it's inevitable.

-The refs do as good a job as they can but you're talking about policing 2000-3000 people in a dynamic environment where that policing requires observation under sometimes challenging conditions and always requires judgement--which is inherently different for each ref.

-Competitors who see this and are upset about this either complain about those "drafting" or the refs or the lack of refs.

My view is that drafting at the WTC WC level is pretty much a given, even with good intent on most people's part and lots of referees, unless we go to a very different start approach (TT for example). The changes at Kona this year for AGers reflect a bit of this viewpoint...

So our options are to:

--accept it as a design flaw of the WTC WC and especially Kona (not saying to not police it but recognize that it will happen)

--accept it period--don't police it.

-make some significant changes in swim start format (people at Kona are so good you could spread the start out over 3-4 hours--old people first)

-boycott it

-something else?

- something else = make it legal.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Randy,
I was there... Draft packs worse than Clearwater. I witnessed 6 of 20+ guys... Pissed off at first, then accepted as something the guys who want to win will do to stay at front.
I'm in your boat. Not good enough swimmer to get in front packs, so I don't have to make that decision, but I too have never had a penalty in over 100 races.
The disappointing thing is the head ref for this race stated in athletes meeting that their job was to keep anyone from getting an unfair advantage. Reading between lines, the usual " caught up and can't go anywhere on this climb but being around people isn't helping at all" wouldn't be penalized but the true cheaters would. They weren't.
Not my problem, but aside from the structural changes noted, a no questions asked 10+ minute penalty for everyone except the guy on point would help. Make the punishment significant, and it helps, I think.
Look forward to seeing you in Kona ,
Bill
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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Blanketing the course with officials can work at maybe the "biggest" event in the sport. But at your local po dunk triathlon, it wont ever happen. So what then?

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Ken--I hear you and get your point. But consider this: at Kona at the peak of the bell curve there is something like 500 athletes exiting in a 5 minute window--1.67 athletes/second! Many of these same athletes are very similar in biking capability. Add on top of this the wind, which makes it very difficult to break away from the front of a group and you have essentially unavoidable and very large groups. If you get passed and sit up to drop out of the draft zone, you're likely to get passed by 10s or maybe as many as 50-100 athletes--that's a long time to sit up. then to get back to where you were, you pull over left and exceed your power target for a few minutes to get back to the front only to have it happen again. If you decide to just drop off the back, there is a good chance another pack will catch you. Very hard to be pure from a drafting perspective in this situation.

I'm not condoning it and as I mentioned above, I'm not good enough to be up there where it's all happening but I think it's a real phenonemom that is different at WCs then at most races--especially at your basic DQ Events contest....

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Blanketing the course with officials can work at maybe the "biggest" event in the sport. But at your local po dunk triathlon, it wont ever happen. So what then?

Your local podunk triathlon does not have the same problem. Certainly not to the same extent.

If I were running WTC and I cared about solving, or at least minimizing, this problem, here is what I would do:
1. At qualifying races, ie all WTC races except the championships, a drafting penalty disqualifies from championship qualification. So, drafting penalty = no Kona and no 70.3WC. Will this solve the problem? No. Will a few people get hit unfairly? Yes. Will it make many people think twice about whether they are legal? Yes. A worthy trade-off? To me, yes.

2. At championship races. Blanket the shit out of the course in marshals.

That's how I'd do it if I made the calls at WTC and I were interested in minimizing this persistent issue.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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Right but my point is, you can blanket it for the top races, but you certainly aren't going to blanket it for the qualifying races (my local po dunk races). So is the solution simply DQ at 1st offense?

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I agree, more enforcement is part of the solution. But only part. I recall at Kona 2012 there was something like 200 drafting penalties handed out--like 10% of the field, yet this was probably only a subset of the actual drafting occurring.

There are lots of good suggestions in this thread and in others, but I do think that given human nature (humans in general tend to behave in a way that if they think they can get away with something and it's to their advantage, many will do so) both the level of enforcement and the penalities for getting caught need to be examined. The advantage of drafting at a WC is quite a bit greater than 4 minutes. Also, there is a benefit for stopping and resting for 4 minutes--stretching and getting down some fluid and nutrition...the punishment is too light for the crime. Perhaps something like a 10-15 minute penalty for the first drafting infraction and then a DQ for the second.....

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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KNY: I'd also like to see people have to serve their penalties 1 mile from the finish of the RUN. You don't get the benefit of resting during the heat of the bike/race and then you have to sit there and have your legs turn to cement while you wait (for 10+ minutes)....

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
Blanketing the course with officials can work at maybe the "biggest" event in the sport. But at your local po dunk triathlon, it wont ever happen. So what then?


Your local podunk triathlon does not have the same problem. Certainly not to the same extent.

If I were running WTC and I cared about solving, or at least minimizing, this problem, here is what I would do:
1. At qualifying races, ie all WTC races except the championships, a drafting penalty disqualifies from championship qualification. So, drafting penalty = no Kona and no 70.3WC. Will this solve the problem? No. Will a few people get hit unfairly? Yes. Will it make many people think twice about whether they are legal? Yes. A worthy trade-off? To me, yes.

2. At championship races. Blanket the shit out of the course in marshals.

That's how I'd do it if I made the calls at WTC and I were interested in minimizing this persistent issue.

Not a bad idea.

Another option I would like to see contemplated by USAT is a "blatant drafting" rule in addition to the current rules. I don't have the answer for how it would be written, but the intent would be that the people sucking wheels for long periods of time or riding in packs would receive a DQ instead of a time penalty.

____________________________________________
Don Larkin
Reach For More
http://www.reachformore.fit/
USAT Lvl1 Coach, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, BS Exercise Science
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Also, there is a benefit for stopping and resting for 4 minutes--stretching and getting down some fluid and nutrition...the punishment is too light for the crime.

______

Here's a way they can improve it and not even have to do more enforcement. When you serve your penalty, simply have it where you can only stand there. Cant eat, cant drink, cant stretch, cant get coached. That's how ITU does it.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Also, there is a benefit for stopping and resting for 4 minutes--stretching and getting down some fluid and nutrition...the punishment is too light for the crime.

______

Here's a way they can improve it and not even have to do more enforcement. When you serve your penalty, simply have it where you can only stand there. Cant eat, cant drink, cant stretch, cant get coached. That's how ITU does it.

I agree, 4 minutes is a nice break, 10 minutes of not stretching/eating/drinking/taking a leak late in a race would be tougher to bounce back from. Legs would definitely take a while to loosen after 10 minutes of standing around. Also a two strike rule for drafting, 1st offence is your 10 minute warning, 2nd and you're done.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:

Here's a way they can improve it and not even have to do more enforcement. When you serve your penalty, simply have it where you can only stand there. Cant eat, cant drink, cant stretch, cant get coached. That's how ITU does it.

Or just add the time penalty to your bike split and total time at the end. Then you get absolutely no residual benefit from the stop.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [aw3] [ In reply to ]
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The issue with that is that "1st across the line" is lost when you apply penalties to your time after the fact.


But that's how we do it for almost all non-draft races so not like it's against the norm.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I would also add:
Construct courses that are not conducive to drafting, i.e. hilly courses.
That's pretty much the same as boycotting WTC though. BOP folks gotta make the time cutoffs or they can't get the tattoo.

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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I think we talked about this before, but this was the rule (at least orally) at Calgary 70.3 this year. There were 8 penalties handed out (times are denoted on the results) and at least 1 of those was a dismount line penalty (my wife witnessed they guy basically ride into T2 and the official run over and tag the guy). There were 869 finishers. There were 100 WC slots on, so there were a lot of guys out there who wanted them with the race in Canada this year.

Some might say that this shows the race was clean, but my n=1 is I saw lots of breaches. Not so many "trains" but at least half a dozen instances where I watched 2 or 3 guys hang out in the draft zone for 30 seconds plus. In at least 3 of those instances I watched the marshall either ignore it or give a warning. Basically, lots of people were willing to take a chance that they were not going to be the 1 in 100 who got popped for drafting.

Like any sport, there's the "rules" and there's the way the game is played.This is the way it is played. I don't begrudge those who want to change it but I suspect the vast silent majority are just happy to take their race results or qualifiers, shrug their shoulders and pay the next set of race fees.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [OkotoksLawyer] [ In reply to ]
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OkotoksLawyer wrote:
I think we talked about this before, but this was the rule (at least orally) at Calgary 70.3 this year. There were 8 penalties handed out (times are denoted on the results) and at least 1 of those was a dismount line penalty (my wife witnessed they guy basically ride into T2 and the official run over and tag the guy). There were 869 finishers. There were 100 WC slots on, so there were a lot of guys out there who wanted them with the race in Canada this year.

Some might say that this shows the race was clean, but my n=1 is I saw lots of breaches. Not so many "trains" but at least half a dozen instances where I watched 2 or 3 guys hang out in the draft zone for 30 seconds plus. In at least 3 of those instances I watched the marshall either ignore it or give a warning. Basically, lots of people were willing to take a chance that they were not going to be the 1 in 100 who got popped for drafting.

Like any sport, there's the "rules" and there's the way the game is played.This is the way it is played. I don't begrudge those who want to change it but I suspect the vast silent majority are just happy to take their race results or qualifiers, shrug their shoulders and pay the next set of race fees.

+1

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [OkotoksLawyer] [ In reply to ]
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You're telling me that at Calgary 70.3 if you got a drafting penalty you were exempt from qualifying for 70.3WC?
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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My one suggestion for Kona - just keep going straight up Palani on the bike from the start at the pier to the upper levels road and carry on to the Waikoloa road and back down to the Queen K - rest of the bike stays the same. You may not have to go all the way up to Hawi for the turn around now.

What you get is over 4,000 ft of climbing right out of T1!! That will do a great job of breaking things up early on!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Do you really think most care?

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck--I like that and have thought the same as I tooled around up in those hills....

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Do you really think most care?

Dave,

I divide it into 1/3's - 1/3 really do care. 1/3 are caught in the middle. 1/3( perhaps a bit less) do REALLY take advantage of the situation.

You see, if you are competitive you want to push it right to the edge. However, in these highly competitive races with dense fields of evenly matched athletes, this does become a bit of a problem with EVERYONE pushing the envelope.






Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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That was what they told us, confirmed by an email from the RD which I still have in my inbox.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [OkotoksLawyer] [ In reply to ]
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OkotoksLawyer wrote:
That was what they told us, confirmed by an email from the RD which I still have in my inbox.

Interesting. So, there is precedent. I would love for WTC to make this standard practice.

To confirm, a drafting penalty did not DQ you, it just made you ineligible for championship qualification? Identical to wearing a wetsuit when the water is above 76 degrees.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
Do you really think most care?

Dave,

I divide it into 1/3's - 1/3 really do care. 1/3 are caught in the middle. 1/3( perhaps a bit less) do REALLY take advantage of the situation.

You see, if you are competitive you want to push it right to the edge. However, in these highly competitive races with dense fields of evenly matched athletes, this does become a bit of a problem with EVERYONE pushing the envelope.




In my 16 years of racing at all levels, I cannot remember hardly anyone bitching about drafting. So I would say 1%. I hear the talk of some of our top racers in my area brag about it. I am not sure what is worse, the ones who draft or
the ones who get on their soap boxes like they have never broken a rule or law.

I just go back to if you sign up for a race with a flat course with lots of top talent, the joke is on the person who comes on ST and complains.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Steve, I also ask how many of the folks who complain are officials? So easy to bitch, much harder to sit on the back of a moto, make the call, and then defend it when the racers is in your face
after the race.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I just go back to if you sign up for a race with a flat course with lots of top talent, the joke is on the person who comes on ST and complains.

________

But in the end, the joke is on the sport itself. When your sport at the highest level has these types of issues, that's not a good look for your sport. The fact that we are now so used to it and we are laughing/smirking at the people who now are just seeing the issues, is the problem in itself. And a problem that isn't going away because there are some areas where an race terrain cant suddenly become "difficult". If you only do races that break up drafting based almost only on elevation, you will be missing out on a lot of great racing areas.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Sep 8, 14 10:55
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know that wetsuit rule, but you have described the situation as I understood it. The exact email exchange was as follows:

Me:
Quote:
Hi there.

I just wanted to confirm something that came up in the athlete briefing yesterday.

Did I understand accurately that anyone who gets any drafting penalty cannot qualify for a 70.3 WC spot at this race? I fully support this if it's the case, I just want to make sure I understood this correctly.

Thanks,

RD:
Quote:


that is correct. You understood it crystal clear.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
The issue with that is that "1st across the line" is lost when you apply penalties to your time after the fact.

The penalties could be called 75% in the run. Give time to officials to figure out the facts, and you still get your first across the line effect.

But I was wondering - not that it happened often before - but how does IM handle an age grouper beating the pro field in a race? I could find only one time it happened (women, IM Canada 2012 - Kendra Lee) - did they give her the win?
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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All this banter. I just don't understand the debate. Let's just switch triathlon to road bikes and make everythin draft legal. Have one men's wave and one women's wave separated by an hour and a half to minimize the fast female swimmer women might get. No mixed gender drafting allowed.

In fact, at that point, you could even get rid of the pro/AG separation. One race. One prize purse. First one across the line wins. Make ready. Get set. Go.

And TV would eat that up.


Drafting problem solved. Oh and I just increased the triathlon industry's worth by millions of dollars.

You're welcome. =)
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [lordhong] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
But I was wondering - not that it happened often before - but how does IM handle an age grouper beating the pro field in a race?//

Since they do not start in the same race, it is impossible for an AG'er to beat the pro field.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [aw3] [ In reply to ]
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I think it is important to differentiate between careless cheating and deliberate cheating. It is probably hard for judges to be certain.
But if that determination is made, why just 5 minutes?
How bout a DQ and a couple of years suspension?
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [aw3] [ In reply to ]
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aw3 wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:

Here's a way they can improve it and not even have to do more enforcement. When you serve your penalty, simply have it where you can only stand there. Cant eat, cant drink, cant stretch, cant get coached. That's how ITU does it.


Or just add the time penalty to your bike split and total time at the end. Then you get absolutely no residual benefit from the stop.


Or even better: make it 2.5 penalty laps around a track, running an 1000m before starting the run. They do something similar when a biathlete misses a target....The track of shame. Opportunity to be heckled. Plus put timing mats on the track and report the penalty lap splits. Can you fathom: "Dude, I finished in 11:20, but I outsplit everyone on P2.". Heh.

THAT ought to do it. :)



------------------

- I do all my own stunts
Last edited by: Rick in the D: Sep 8, 14 11:23
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
I just go back to if you sign up for a race with a flat course with lots of top talent, the joke is on the person who comes on ST and complains.

________

But in the end, the joke is on the sport itself. When your sport at the highest level has these types of issues, that's not a good look for your sport. The fact that we are now so used to it and we are laughing/smirking at the people who now are just seeing the issues, is the problem in itself. And a problem that isn't going away because there are some areas where an race terrain cant suddenly become "difficult". If you only do races that break up drafting based almost only on elevation, you will be missing out on a lot of great racing areas.

As I said, I just never hear about the issue other than ST and in the US.

So nope, I do not think the joke is on the sport by what the majority feel.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
How would you feel if a significant percentage of the field started using GruberAssists and WTC was aware that some were taking this benefit yet took no steps to stop it?
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm confused about 1 thing. Why does it matter where you hear about the issue, if the issue is happening at races. Are you saying because others "accept" it, that it's not a problem?

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kny wrote:
How would you feel if a significant percentage of the field started using GruberAssists and WTC was aware that some were taking this benefit yet took no steps to stop it?

What are gruberassists?

Do I spend time worrying about what others are doing? NOPE! I guess this comes with age. I do not have enough time left to worry about dumb stuff.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [gantaliano] [ In reply to ]
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gantaliano wrote:
All this banter. I just don't understand the debate. Let's just switch triathlon to road bikes and make everythin draft legal. Have one men's wave and one women's wave separated by an hour and a half to minimize the fast female swimmer women might get. No mixed gender drafting allowed.

In fact, at that point, you could even get rid of the pro/AG separation. One race. One prize purse. First one across the line wins. Make ready. Get set. Go.

And TV would eat that up.


Drafting problem solved. Oh and I just increased the triathlon industry's worth by millions of dollars.

You're welcome. =)

Draft legal triathlons are pretty fun to watch.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
I'm confused about 1 thing. Why does it matter where you hear about the issue, if the issue is happening at races. Are you saying because others "accept" it, that it's not a problem?

Again, life is way way to short to waste this kind of negative energy on a hobby. Especially since so few are willing to become officials and try to help, rather than just complain.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
A GruberAssist is a small electric motor that can put 200 watts into your pedals for an hour. Or less for longer. And the new model has apparently gotten rid of the high pitched whine that gives away it's presence.

There is no difference, in theory, between getting free watts from a draft vs getting free watts from a motor. So, would you feel the same way about competing in a race where a significant percentage of the field were getting free watts from a motor? Would you expect WTC to take action to combat this type of cheating?
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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That is a terrible argument. While it seems to make sense at the surface, there is a precedent for drafting in draft legal races and mass start cycling events. There is no precedent for electronic motors on bicycles.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kny wrote:
A GruberAssist is a small electric motor that can put 200 watts into your pedals for an hour. Or less for longer. And the new model has apparently gotten rid of the high pitched whine that gives away it's presence.

There is no difference, in theory, between getting free watts from a draft vs getting free watts from a motor. So, would you feel the same way about competing in a race where a significant percentage of the field were getting free watts from a motor? Would you expect WTC to take action to combat this type of cheating?

These year in and year out what ifs are just a waste, and these are what makes our sport look like a joke to many.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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So are you saying there is a drafting issue or not?

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [patsullivan6630] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
patsullivan6630 wrote:
That is a terrible argument. While it seems to make sense at the surface, there is a precedent for drafting in draft legal races and mass start cycling events. There is no precedent for electronic motors on bicycles.

I disagree. The analogy is apt. The GruberAssist analogy is a hypothetical to make a point, and the existence of drafting in draft-legal races or mass start cycling events irrelevant. If a significant percentage of the field is cheating and the race management takes no real steps to stop it, would h2ofun continue to not care as he does not care about cheating via drafting and WTC's apparent lack of desire to enforce it.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
So are you saying there is a drafting issue or not?

I do not think there is a drafting issue.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
My one suggestion for Kona - just keep going straight up Palani on the bike from the start at the pier to the upper levels road and carry on to the Waikoloa road and back down to the Queen K - rest of the bike stays the same. You may not have to go all the way up to Hawi for the turn around now.

What you get is over 4,000 ft of climbing right out of T1!! That will do a great job of breaking things up early on!


While you're at it: add 50% to the swim, 3.6 mi instead of 2.4 mi. We know the swim is disproportionally short, and that would help spread out people into T1.
Last edited by: deh20: Sep 8, 14 12:24
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kny wrote:
patsullivan6630 wrote:
That is a terrible argument. While it seems to make sense at the surface, there is a precedent for drafting in draft legal races and mass start cycling events. There is no precedent for electronic motors on bicycles.


I disagree. The analogy is apt. The GruberAssist analogy is a hypothetical to make a point, and the existence of drafting in draft-legal races or mass start cycling events irrelevant. If a significant percentage of the field is cheating and the race management takes no real steps to stop it, would h2ofun continue to not care as he does not care about cheating via drafting and WTC's apparent lack of desire to enforce it.

Yep, just tired of hearing the sky is falling. Are you a race official? If not, why not?

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
patsullivan6630 wrote:
That is a terrible argument. While it seems to make sense at the surface, there is a precedent for drafting in draft legal races and mass start cycling events. There is no precedent for electronic motors on bicycles.


I disagree. The analogy is apt. The GruberAssist analogy is a hypothetical to make a point, and the existence of drafting in draft-legal races or mass start cycling events irrelevant. If a significant percentage of the field is cheating and the race management takes no real steps to stop it, would h2ofun continue to not care as he does not care about cheating via drafting and WTC's apparent lack of desire to enforce it.

Yes, but the format of the current WTC events almost ensures drafting will occur, there is no similar paradigm for using the GruberAssist device. There is a difference between using GruberAssist and being on a road with so many other cyclists that getting the low-pressure draft effect is unavoidable. One is very clearly cheating, the other is a result of how the race is set up. Besides, even in draft legal races using the GruberAssist device would be illegal for obvious reasons.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [patsullivan6630] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
patsullivan6630 wrote:
kny wrote:
patsullivan6630 wrote:
That is a terrible argument. While it seems to make sense at the surface, there is a precedent for drafting in draft legal races and mass start cycling events. There is no precedent for electronic motors on bicycles.


I disagree. The analogy is apt. The GruberAssist analogy is a hypothetical to make a point, and the existence of drafting in draft-legal races or mass start cycling events irrelevant. If a significant percentage of the field is cheating and the race management takes no real steps to stop it, would h2ofun continue to not care as he does not care about cheating via drafting and WTC's apparent lack of desire to enforce it.


Yes, but the format of the current WTC events almost ensures drafting will occur, there is no similar paradigm for using the GruberAssist device. There is a difference between using GruberAssist and being on a road with so many other cyclists that getting the low-pressure draft effect is unavoidable. One is very clearly cheating, the other is a result of how the race is set up. Besides, even in draft legal races using the GruberAssist device would be illegal for obvious reasons.

Ok, so if the format of WTC events ensures that cheating will occur then WTC either needs to change the rules or change the format of their events. But to tacitly accept cheating degrades the validity of the event, particularly a so-called championship.

h20fun - I am not a race official because that is not how I want to spend my time. However, I feel I have done more than enough to give back to the triathlon community.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [kny] [ In reply to ]
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I agree in principle, there is no practical way to prevent the draft effect with that many cyclists on the road so the rules should be changed. I bring up mass start bicycling events because that is what the bike start more closely resembles in these large events. In UCI mass start events drafting is legal. Obviously in time-trials it is not allowed, there is also little to no opportunity to draft in a UCI time trial. Unless you can meter out the cyclists after they get out of the water, the bike start is de-facto mass-start, mass-start rules should apply. This would be preferable to having a rule that is impossible to enforce.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [patsullivan6630] [ In reply to ]
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Draft legal bike course will never get implemented. Way to easy to stay status quo and just leave the bitching/discussion to ST and watch as the same athletes who races 1 draft fest, turns around and registers for another one an year later.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Probably you are right, the uproar from AG'ers would be epic if they changed to a draft legal format and required UCI rules for mass-start. Better business to not upset the masses and continue to annoy the purists.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I was racing yesterday and this how bad it was...at least 7 groups of peloton riders came flying past in the middle of the bike course. The beginning I don't count because we all get stacked there. It was so bad that at one point as a peloton was consuming me we happen to pass a penalty tent and the guy manning it yelled "SEPARATE DAMN IT". Thats how bad it was... Crazy but I will sleep good knowing I raced clean. Not sure about the rest...

A friend and I were discussing it later and equates it to dopping. It's like they feel like if they don't do it you can't keep up with the lead age groupers to win. Very sad.

Athletes have to decide to cheat or not until WTC puts 100 refs on motorcycles on the course.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [cobragolf79] [ In reply to ]
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You could put a ref on a bike every 100 feet out there. It doesn't matter a lick unless they issue penalties. That is where I feel enforcement falls down. I wasn't at MT this past weekend, but I read Dev's account and it matches my experiences in other races, just on a greater scale.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:

-something else?

enforce the rules.

enforce the rules with tons of motos, drones, etc. Crowdsource and outsource enforcement to anyone with a camera... cameras on bikes, cameras on 'CrossCopters, cameras on bystanders.

enforce rules that hurt. 8min for first offense. Penalty run miles in T2. One draft no WC eligibility penalties, etc.


drafting is not inevitable. Especially not if you pass a lot.

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [cobragolf79] [ In reply to ]
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It's like they feel like if they don't do it you can't keep up with the lead age groupers to win. //

They would be right in feeling that way. YOu said it yourself, just you alone saw 7 peletons go by you, what chance do most have to podium if they are not in one of those packs??
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
It's like they feel like if they don't do it you can't keep up with the lead age groupers to win. //

They would be right in feeling that way. YOu said it yourself, just you alone saw 7 peletons go by you, what chance do most have to podium if they are not in one of those packs??

Gosh, where have I heard endurance athletes say "I had to break the rules in order to be competitive" before?

At least we know that Antonio Colom didn't draft his way to an AG win.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
So are you saying there is a drafting issue or not?


I do not think there is a drafting issue.

.


And yet, you are posting prolifically on 2 separate threads (one of which YOU started) on this very topic.



edit: spelling.


float , hammer , and jog

Last edited by: Murphy'sLaw: Sep 8, 14 16:35
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [craigj532] [ In reply to ]
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Gosh, where have I heard endurance athletes say "I had to break the rules in order to be competitive" before? //

Dont mistake my comment to imply that i condone what is going on. I'm just saying how it is at many championship races in the AG ranks. We can each do what we can individually to pressure the powers to be to do something, but that has not worked for a very long time. So there is a whole generation of triathletes that draft in every single race, it has always been part of racing to them. Then there is the old guard watching all this, and most just say fuck it after a dozen races where it is a draftfest, and join in. So the reality is that for most to podium, they will have to draft. For those in Colom's AG, they will have to draft and dope to beat him. Drafting won't do it alone, he has too many years under his belt on the juice, and nothing shows me that he is still not leaning that way. There is maybe one or two that could knock him off the top legally, we will see if they can pull it off, I sure hope so. It won't be justice for all, but sweet revenge for one or two guys at least..
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:
I wasn't up at the 70.3 WCs at MT today but read about the drafting. I've been to 4 WTC WC events (Kona twice and the 70.3s twice--Clearwater and Vegas) so that plus my reading of all of the ST posts on drafting at these events is what I'm leaning on for the following observations (and to be clear, I'm very much BOP at the WC races and so I generally have no one to draft off of even if I wanted to so in a sense, I'm just speculating here):

- I do think most folks in triathlon, especially those who spend enough time to get good enough at it to race at the WC level (but who are not pro and don't make any money from this activity) are people who believe in rules and who are not cheaters. This includes the drafting rule(s).

- In most races, these folks in fact follow the rules pretty much to the letter. (I know there are some who don't but I'm talking about the majority here)

- However, at Kona especially, and at most 70.3WC venues (Las Vegas was different) there are so many athletes racing that are so close to each other in ability on the Swim/Bike, and the Bike course is relatively tame, that it becomes very difficult not to violate the drafting rules (when 20 people pass you and you have to drop back and then go 1.2-1.4X your goal power to get back to where you were--only to have to repeat---this becomes a challenge to just accept)

-These folks adapt to the situation and then begin to bend the rules because everyone else is doing the same and the alternative of playing by the strict letter of the rules seems inherently unfair and is competitively very costly.

-So draft packs form--a statistical analysis of swim exit times and prior bike splits leads one to believe it's inevitable.

-The refs do as good a job as they can but you're talking about policing 2000-3000 people in a dynamic environment where that policing requires observation under sometimes challenging conditions and always requires judgement--which is inherently different for each ref.

-Competitors who see this and are upset about this either complain about those "drafting" or the refs or the lack of refs.

My view is that drafting at the WTC WC level is pretty much a given, even with good intent on most people's part and lots of referees, unless we go to a very different start approach (TT for example). The changes at Kona this year for AGers reflect a bit of this viewpoint...

So our options are to:

--accept it as a design flaw of the WTC WC and especially Kona (not saying to not police it but recognize that it will happen)

--accept it period--don't police it.

-make some significant changes in swim start format (people at Kona are so good you could spread the start out over 3-4 hours--old people first)

-boycott it

-something else?

I remember when the WTC announced the move from Clearwater and people around here were shouting from the roof tops rejoicing in the fact that any location besides Clearwater would improve, if not outright resolve, the drafting issue. Some said they turned down slots because Clearwater was a joke for a championship venue. Others said they would race WTC 70.3 events again and attempt to qualify now that it wasn't in Clearwater. But the funniest thing I recall is some of the same people (not you) in this thread, who raced this weekend complaining yet again.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev is correct, 6-8 min. between waves would drake a world of difference. At USAT Nationals they had that gap on a 40K course with 3000 athletes and it was perfect. But it sucked to wait so long and it would change the start/finish times for a full IM or Half and give a potential advantage to the early waves.

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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It's not a fact of life, just a poor design. Yesterday there were 247 men 40-44 all in the same wave with all waves 3-4 mins apart. All these athletes with similar power to weight ratios, at a world championship race (fast dudes) and they wonder why there are issues with drafting? Ridiculous.

ITU got this right at the Chicago race, 226 men M40-44, split into 2 waves 20 mins apart. I didn't see any drafting on a 40k dead flat course. I agree all the waiting around does suck, but if people want a clean race that's what needs to be done. It can be done, but some tough choices will need to be made.

Yesterday the drafting was horrendous, I thought it was just as bad if not worse than Clearwater. It's like putting a kid in a candy store.

ITU got it right with this schedule:

http://chicago.triathlon.org/event_info/schedule
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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In your scenario, how does someone go from being the victim of being passed by 20 people to being in the middle of a peloton on their bullhorns for a significant amount of time?

AndyF
bike geek
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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"In your scenario, how does someone go from being the victim of being passed by 20 people to being in the middle of a peloton on their bullhorns for a significant amount of time? "


Andy--the rules require you, when you are passed, to drop out of the drafting zone--which is something like 3 bike-lengths. In order to do that when someone pulls in front, you basically have to sit-up and stop pedalling. While you're sitting up the next guy passes you and then you have to drop out of his drafting zone. While you're sitting up the next guy passes you and then you have to drop out of his drafting zone. While you're sitting up the next guy passes you and then you have to drop out of his drafting zone. While you're sitting up the next guy passes you and then you have to drop out of his drafting zone. While you're sitting up the next guy passes you and then you have to drop out of his drafting zone. While you're sitting up the next guy passes you and then you have to drop out of his drafting zone. While you're sitting up the next guy passes you and then you have to drop out of his drafting zone. While you're sitting up the next guy passes you and then you have to drop out of his drafting zone. While you're sitting up the next guy passes you and then you have to drop out of his drafting zone. While you're sitting up the next guy passes you and then you have to drop out of his drafting zone. While you're sitting up the next guy passes you and then you have to drop out of his drafting zone. While you're sitting up the next guy passes you and then you have to drop out of his drafting zone. While you're sitting up the next guy passes you and then you have to drop out of his drafting zone. While you're sitting up the next guy passes you and then you have to drop out of his drafting zone. While you're sitting up the next guy passes you and then you have to drop out of his drafting zone. While you're sitting up the next guy passes you and then you have to drop out of his drafting zone.

During this time you are in the 20-person peloton--you can be on the bullhorns or just chilling in your aero-bars.

BTW--it takes longer than reading the above--I'm not sure if you think that's a significant amount of time or not

Thank goodness your question wasn't about being passed by 100 people! :)

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
Last edited by: rcmioga: Sep 8, 14 18:44
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [OkotoksLawyer] [ In reply to ]
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Riiggghhhtttt...when the rules get enforced ST lights up with huge amounts of bitching & moaning about overzealous marshals, draft Nazis, inexperienced officials...to infinity & beyond. No one ever cheats on this forum. No one ever is in the wrong place at the wrong time. No one ever commits an offense (see recent moaning about swim caps & being penalized). Everyone is innocent. RDs don't want large parts of their paying customers getting penalized...bad for business.

If you've not been on the back of a motorcycle trying to enforce the rules ( and I shall channel my id): STFU. Quit your bitching. If you want to make change become an official, quit doing WTC events or volunteer in some capacity. This whinging after every frickin' large race does get a bit tedious. "I'm shocked. Shocked that drafting takes place!" Really? You're that surprised that WTC wishes to cram as many people onto a course that cannot handle that number of highly motivated participants & that position fouls are going to take place?

It's Ground Hog day yet again on ST...

#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I have raced in kona a couple times and two World Champs 70.3 and one Oly WC. The groups that formed out there on the road were similar to what i experienced in Vegas a couple years back - but in my recollection there were enough hills to break the weaker cyclists from sticking and only smaller packs formed. This was not the case in tremblant and the hills came later when the packs actually did fracture. The only issue i see with splitting the age groups up is that some people want to race head to head with the competition and not knowing where you are relative to them would be problematic.

If its a small race - i have no issue with yelling at someone who might be trying to get a free ride- but when that train is 3km long - it would just be a waste of energy for me. I have to accept it or just get the bike over with and let the race be decided on the run. I always figure that the big championship races with draft fests on the bike favor the fast feet runners- the uber bikers cant get away.

Michael Hay - helped on the journey by the great folks at ZiZU Optics, (for the custom fit), and Bialkowlski's TRYSPORT
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Lazy--I hear your complaint but I think you're in the wrong thread. I suggest you go back to the beginning of the thread and maybe post something more constructive (and civil for that matter).

By that I mean, if we genuinely wanted to make a change that would reduce drafting, what would we say to the WTC?

Is it this:

"If you've not been on the back of a motorcycle trying to enforce the rules ( and I shall channel my id): STFU. Quit your bitching. If you want to make change become an official, quit doing WTC events or volunteer in some capacity. This whinging after every frickin' large race does get a bit tedious. "I'm shocked. Shocked that drafting takes place!" Really? You're that surprised that WTC wishes to cram as many people onto a course that cannot handle that number of highly motivated participants & that position fouls are going to take place? "

Just saying...

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you, I know the rules. I'm even in a pretty good position to determine how many fewer watts it takes to ride that way. No, I meant how if, 20 kms later, you were still in the same peloton and still in the bullhorns. That kind of thing.

We all know what's really happening, in spite of people's pleas that they're the victims of overcrowded races. Keep in mind that you're speaking to peers. This ain't your coworkers you're trying to impress with your fine fitness.

AndyF
bike geek
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Andy--i think we have a failure to communicate since i really don't have any co-workers and if I did i wouldn't be trying to impress them with my "fine fitness".

If you read the whole thread you'll know I'm not good enough to be in this scenario (as you say) at the WCs (I'm a BOP when I'm lucky enough to get to race at Kona or the 70.3s)--I know enough people who are though to think maybe we can organize a discussion on how one might design a race to help alleviate the obvious drafting that goes on there.

My only dog in this hunt is I have a lot of friends who are much better than me who get impacted by the drafting at Kona and I think we should all just acknowledge the problem and maybe move on to trying to help solve it. I also think we should not criticize people who say there is lots of drafting but I didn't do it--they are correct--there is a problem even if they might be part of it.

I do think Kona could be done differently (and so does the WTC given the changes to the start this year) to make it fairer for the really good AGers out there. There have been a bunch of good suggestions on this thread so far. Do you have any to offer?

(BTW--I'm pretty upset about my lack of fitness as I head towards Kona truth be told...its certainly not fine....I'm one of those guys trying to get under 14 hours)

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Right thread. Emphasis on the frustration so the lack if civility was intentional. Dead horse issue. Go back over the years here on ST & see the same B&M by people regarding WTC events. Same ol' song, only the days change.

What would you say to WTC: don't participate. Pressure them for change. They have little interest in enforcing rules because it might impact their paying customers in the present setting. The other scenario is change will be forced upon them when dozens of riders go down in a massive crash & the injuries begin to impact their liability insurance AND the host NGBs start demanding change.

#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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So--your excuse for not being civil is that this issue was discussed before and nothing happened and you think a dialogue among concerned folks is pointless and won't accomplish anything.

I'd like to kindly suggest that you no longer participate in this thread--we are not hurting anyone in having this dialogue and it isn't of any value to you. Also, life is too short to put up with rude and mean attityudes and behavior.

Thanks in advance for doing the right thing and no longer posting on this thread.

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Just make the swim longer. Done problem solved
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Re: Drafting is bad--agreed? But at the IM WC races it's a fact of life... [Leo Carrillo] [ In reply to ]
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Leo Carrillo wrote:
Just make the swim longer. Done problem solved

Make the swim longer at the beginning, and add a swim leg a the end.

.

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