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60 Minutes on SS Disability
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Very well done report by 60 Minutes on the fraud that is Social Security Disability. Of course, if you have been paying attention or work in this area, you have known all of this for some time. Just cannot believe anyone with a sliver of common sense cannot see what a disaster this program is and how much it reeks of fraud.

Two former employees of Binder & Binder gave a great interview with insights into the scam. Over $1B in attorney fees paid out by the SS Administration annually.

Burn it down. That is our only hope.

http://www.cbsnews.com/.../watch/?id=50156491n


If you would like to actually educate yourself on this topic, here is a great read. It is the testimony of Larry Butler, Administrative Law Judge for the SS Administration.

http://oversight.house.gov/...ment_2013_06_271.pdf

Unbelievable.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
Very well done report by 60 Minutes on the fraud that is Social Security Disability. Of course, if you have been paying attention or work in this area, you have known all of this for some time. Just cannot believe anyone with a sliver of common sense cannot see what a disaster this program is and how much it reeks of fraud.

Two former employees of Binder & Binder gave a great interview with insights into the scam. Over $1B in attorney fees paid out by the SS Administration annually.
There you go, trying to make lawyers look bad.

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
Very well done report by 60 Minutes on the fraud that is Social Security Disability. Of course, if you have been paying attention or work in this area, you have known all of this for some time. Just cannot believe anyone with a sliver of common sense cannot see what a disaster this program is and how much it reeks of fraud.

Two former employees of Binder & Binder gave a great interview with insights into the scam. Over $1B in attorney fees paid out by the SS Administration annually.

Burn it down. That is our only hope.

http://www.cbsnews.com/.../watch/?id=50156491n


If you would like to actually educate yourself on this topic, here is a great read. It is the testimony of Larry Butler, Administrative Law Judge for the SS Administration.

http://oversight.house.gov/...ment_2013_06_271.pdf

Unbelievable.

Once someone is granted "disability" there is no going back.
Seems like it would be worth the extra effort to make sure someone is really "disabled" before you put them on the gravy train for life.
Of course then the optics look bad, when you are trying to deny the "disabled" their (rightful, so they say) entitlement.

As you pointed out, people who pay attention to these things are well aware of what's going on with SS disability. Nothing is going to happen to reform it.

I mean at the end of the day, what Senator or Representative would have the guts to refuse to help (e.g. do a real evaluation and call a spade a spade when someone's "disability" just appears to be bogus) one of their constituents who claims they are being denied "disability" that they feel they should get. The denied person goes to the press and claims Senator X wouldn't help me, says my disability is not real.

Politically, if either party got behind actually trying to reform SS disability, the other party would accuse them of creating "death panels" to deny disabled people benefits. This to me is just a product of a political system with no accountability where everyone just passes the buck and wastes government money rather than standing up for what's right.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Also, no surprise seeing Tom Coburn calling a spade a spade. I believe he is in his final term. If we had a hundred more like him, we might actually have a legislature that worked.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
Once someone is granted "disability" there is no going back.
Seems like it would be worth the extra effort to make sure someone is really "disabled" before you put them on the gravy train for life.
Of course then the optics look bad, when you are trying to deny the "disabled" their (rightful, so they say) entitlement.

As you pointed out, people who pay attention to these things are well aware of what's going on with SS disability. Nothing is going to happen to reform it.

I mean at the end of the day, what Senator or Representative would have the guts to refuse to help (e.g. do a real evaluation and call a spade a spade when someone's "disability" just appears to be bogus) one of their constituents who claims they are being denied "disability" that they feel they should get. The denied person goes to the press and claims Senator X wouldn't help me, says my disability is not real.

Politically, if either party got behind actually trying to reform SS disability, the other party would accuse them of creating "death panels" to deny disabled people benefits. This to me is just a product of a political system with no accountability where everyone just passes the buck and wastes government money rather than standing up for what's right.

And that all that matters here...nothing will be done because as you said the optics look bad, you can't be the guy stealing dough from the woman in a wheelchair, not good for reelection. But maybe if, I don't know, we required a balanced budget of some sort (even with some stipulations around war-time budgets) and some form of term limits for these jokers we wouldn't see a legitimately great program get taken advantage of in such a major way.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Well, Sen Tom Coburn (OK) is trying to reform the system. But, you are right, there is no politician, from either party, who really wants to fight this battle and/or reform this pathetic system.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
Also, no surprise seeing Tom Coburn calling a spade a spade. I believe he is in his final term. If we had a hundred more like him, we might actually have a legislature that worked.

Yep. I believe you are correct that he is not seeking another term. The bigger issue is that we have politicians who make their time in DC a full-time career. The positions in Congress were never intended to be life-time careers.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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Watching the two women who used to work for Binder & Binder was like listening to myself from several years ago. During all 3 years of law school, I worked for a small plaintiff's boutique firm. Great experience, but, left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. I maintain that about 1 in 10 of the clients had actually been "wronged" and deserved compensation. Listening to the women from Binder, it was about the same with the clients they used to represent.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
tri_yoda wrote:
Also, no surprise seeing Tom Coburn calling a spade a spade. I believe he is in his final term. If we had a hundred more like him, we might actually have a legislature that worked.


Yep. I believe you are correct that he is not seeking another term. The bigger issue is that we have politicians who make their time in DC a full-time career. The positions in Congress were never intended to be life-time careers.

... much less personally-enriching.

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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There is sort of a silver lining here.

I didn't realize SS disability was on a "separate ledger" from regular SS and the "trust" will go bust in 2015 (according to the story).

Faced with either raising the payroll tax, cutting benefits by 25%, or reforming disability, there is at least the possibility of intelligent discussion.

Not that I have any respect for Grover Nordquist or what he represents, he has pull and any attempt to raise payroll taxes is going to be polarizing.
Also, considering this is the least expansive of the really big government entitlements, whatever happens with the disability Rubicon is an indication of
what will happen with the other programs.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
JSA wrote:
Very well done report by 60 Minutes on the fraud that is Social Security Disability. Of course, if you have been paying attention or work in this area, you have known all of this for some time. Just cannot believe anyone with a sliver of common sense cannot see what a disaster this program is and how much it reeks of fraud.

Two former employees of Binder & Binder gave a great interview with insights into the scam. Over $1B in attorney fees paid out by the SS Administration annually.

Burn it down. That is our only hope.

http://www.cbsnews.com/.../watch/?id=50156491n


If you would like to actually educate yourself on this topic, here is a great read. It is the testimony of Larry Butler, Administrative Law Judge for the SS Administration.

http://oversight.house.gov/...ment_2013_06_271.pdf

Unbelievable.


Once someone is granted "disability" there is no going back.
Seems like it would be worth the extra effort to make sure someone is really "disabled" before you put them on the gravy train for life.
Of course then the optics look bad, when you are trying to deny the "disabled" their (rightful, so they say) entitlement.

As you pointed out, people who pay attention to these things are well aware of what's going on with SS disability. Nothing is going to happen to reform it.

I mean at the end of the day, what Senator or Representative would have the guts to refuse to help (e.g. do a real evaluation and call a spade a spade when someone's "disability" just appears to be bogus) one of their constituents who claims they are being denied "disability" that they feel they should get. The denied person goes to the press and claims Senator X wouldn't help me, says my disability is not real.

My fiancee is in upper management for a very large non-profit organization which helps "disabled" people find employment. All of their clients receive disability. While some of them have actual disabilities which make it difficult for them to have a normal career (ie. blindness, severe intellectual shortcomings), the vast majority of them are nothing more than leeches on the system. She told me a story today about a young girl in their program who was riding on the back of a motorcycle that was involved in a minor fender bender a few years ago. Nobody was hurt in the accident, including herself or the rider, and the bike was not even damaged but she claims to have PTSD from the accident and receives the maximum state disability because of it.

The people in the program who really want to work tend to be the ones with actual severe disabilities.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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I would bet that if one looked hard enough, you could probably find the same thing about VA disability. When I was at my transition class when I was nearing retirement, the room was filled with a bunch of very healthy looking people. Of course, when the guy from the VA came to tell us about how to submit paperwork for service related injuries and a disability rating, they were all over it. It is insane what gets covered; I kid you not, I know somebody who has an itchy scalp and gets something like a 10% disability for it.

Spot

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [spot] [ In reply to ]
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It is rampant. We get so many people coming in wanting me to certify their medical papers. I cannot by law do that, so I am saved from that; however, it is still infuriating because pain is subjective and you can't really say "oh please, you don't hurt that badly" but then you see them out and about and just cringe.

The mindset of the person that is actively seeking disability for conditions that most will brush off as a nuisance is alive and well and it causes me to become so cynical about things, then I meet that 1 person who is literally living on beans that is forced to take the money because they truly need it and is so ashamed because they weren't brought up to take the handout. I want to take them on a tour to talk to others. My closest childhood friend is in that boat now. She is a teacher, loves what she does, however, her MS is catching up with her and she can no longer stand for long periods of time (she teaches band) and her legs are staging a revolt. The immunosuppressants she is on are kicking her butt and I think she is about to go down that road.

I dunno. What people didn't mention in the 60 Minutes piece is the upsurge of parents demanding an ADD/ADHD or even Bipolar diagnosis for their child. Once they get that, the child is now covered under ADA and they get payment.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
Well, Sen Tom Coburn (OK) is trying to reform the system. But, you are right, there is no politician, from either party, who really wants to fight this battle and/or reform this pathetic system.

If the respective Bar associations and the Justice Dept start going after the Christopher Conn's of the world, it would be a good start.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Yup, I almost posted about this last night right after it aired. Never realized how bad it was, and the lawyers have (according to the former employees) turned it into a near 100% success rate where it is almost a manufacturing process for making money. Even the doctors are getting kickbacks for supporting the lawyers claims.

Sen. Tom Coburn did an excellent job explaining the issue and I really hope they put together a report that successfully outlines the entire issue as well as potential solutions.

And as someone already stated in this thread, it really sucks that the people who actually use SS disability for the right reasons may be negatively affected by the 50-60% of recipients who are draining the system.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
tri_yoda wrote:
Also, no surprise seeing Tom Coburn calling a spade a spade. I believe he is in his final term. If we had a hundred more like him, we might actually have a legislature that worked.


Yep. I believe you are correct that he is not seeking another term. The bigger issue is that we have politicians who make their time in DC a full-time career. The positions in Congress were never intended to be life-time careers.

Yes ... a single 5 year term, do what you promised then get out.
Maybe not perfect but beats what we have now, which is not about doing the right thing but staying in power.
Unfortunately when you say "politician", I think "slimy", with very very few exceptions.
.
.


[ The sign of intelligence is you are constantly wondering. Idiots are always dead sure about every damn thing they are doing in their life. - Vasudev ]
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [planetsbr] [ In reply to ]
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planetsbr wrote:
JSA wrote:
tri_yoda wrote:
Also, no surprise seeing Tom Coburn calling a spade a spade. I believe he is in his final term. If we had a hundred more like him, we might actually have a legislature that worked.


Yep. I believe you are correct that he is not seeking another term. The bigger issue is that we have politicians who make their time in DC a full-time career. The positions in Congress were never intended to be life-time careers.


Yes ... a single 5 year term, do what you promised then get out.
Maybe not perfect but beats what we have now, which is not about doing the right thing but staying in power.
Unfortunately when you say "politician", I think "slimy", with very very few exceptions.
.
.

But we would lose all the valuable experience that these career politicians bring to the table.

pink font
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Workman's compensation and disability are seen as the great gravy train. I was a manager in a distribution center years ago, and people loved "getting hurt". It really screwed it up for the folks who really did get hurt and had a legitimate injury. The company's incident review policy was onerous, and had quite the adversarial feel.

I work as a medical provider in occupational health now, and see a good number of folks who just aren't motivated to get better. In a way I can't blame them- 50 years old and working in a warehouse or meat packing plant has to just suck. When its time to get back to work though, you gotta go.

******************************
If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [lunchbox] [ In reply to ]
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lunchbox wrote:
Workman's compensation and disability are seen as the great gravy train. I was a manager in a distribution center years ago, and people loved "getting hurt". It really screwed it up for the folks who really did get hurt and had a legitimate injury. The company's incident review policy was onerous, and had quite the adversarial feel.

I work as a medical provider in occupational health now, and see a good number of folks who just aren't motivated to get better. In a way I can't blame them- 50 years old and working in a warehouse or meat packing plant has to just suck. When its time to get back to work though, you gotta go.

Being in the physical therapy world we deal with this stuff all the time. I've seen patients that were shockingly honest about essentially gaming the system (usually in relation to some other claim they had going or their relative's issues).

Still it begs a couple of questions. How prevalent on the whole is this and what % of folks on SS disability are potential malingerers?
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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"Marilyn Zahm: If the American public knew what was going on in our system, half would be outraged and the other half would apply for benefits."

Sadly our country and it's culture is changing at break neck speed.
We once thought- "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" was good enough.
Now those rights are expanding with the help of a corrupt government to be more like: life, less liberty, redistribution of wealth for the pursuit to live on the dole.
So pathetic we had such a great run.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
lunchbox wrote:
Workman's compensation and disability are seen as the great gravy train. I was a manager in a distribution center years ago, and people loved "getting hurt". It really screwed it up for the folks who really did get hurt and had a legitimate injury. The company's incident review policy was onerous, and had quite the adversarial feel.

I work as a medical provider in occupational health now, and see a good number of folks who just aren't motivated to get better. In a way I can't blame them- 50 years old and working in a warehouse or meat packing plant has to just suck. When its time to get back to work though, you gotta go.


Being in the physical therapy world we deal with this stuff all the time. I've seen patients that were shockingly honest about essentially gaming the system (usually in relation to some other claim they had going or their relative's issues).

Still it begs a couple of questions. How prevalent on the whole is this and what % of folks on SS disability are potential malingerers?

More than half are malingerers and fakes. Im in physical therapy profession also. It never fails, two people with the same injury, one with workers comp temporary income benefits takes 2 to 3 times as long to recover than someone with insurance and a job.Then when the income benefits run out, here comes a lawyer request for medical records and a disability claim. Ive almost quit taking workers comp because of the fraud. The SSi and SSDI are just the next final step for people that have done the worker comp racquet followed by the unemployment racquet. We as a nation have tried to do the right thing, cover on the job injuries for injured workers, provide income assistance for people that lose their jobs while they can search for a new one, and help all those that cant work for themselves.

But there are no personal morals anymore. 20 or 30 years ago, 9 out of 10 people would have thought it was immoral to take money from these programs and would have been completely embarassed and humiliated to mention it to anyone. Now, 9 out of 10 are hiring lawyers trying to figure out how to qualify, and don't care who knows or doesn't. It is a disgusting decay or personal morals and pride to live off of the work others, but since they see it as the governments its no one's money and they arent hurting anybody and they dont care.



---------------------------------
Hold my Beer and watch this!
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Agree with Allie:

The secondary fraud is getting your child diagnosed with a "mental disability" and getting paid for that. ADD/ADHD are the classics. But it's so easy for the parents to go to the doc and report subjective symptoms and score the diagnosis.

Another point they didn't make on the show. A LOT of the fraudulently disabled actually have cash-paying under the table jobs - gardener, housecleaner etc. So they actually make much more money, and just don't report it or pay taxes on their income.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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Still it begs a couple of questions. How prevalent on the whole is this and what % of folks on SS disability are potential malingerers?

I think it's very difficult to know how many are on disability under false pretense and to what extent. That being said we can, without question, say that jobs today are typically less physically demanding, less dangerous and thus less prone to injury then in the past. One would think that due to this the percentage of population on disability should be going down, in fact quite the opposite.

In 1985 only 2.2% of adults ages 25-65 were on SSDI. Today that number is closer to 9%.


IOW we have easier jobs, less prone to injury and the percent of people on disability has increased four fold in just under 30 years.

You can only walk away from that with a couple possible conclusions. Either people in 1985 were a hell of a lot more sturdy and less frail then we are today or there are a hell of a lot more people on disability today that never would have been for similar "Ailments" in 1985. I'm going with the later.

If we assume that 1985 was somewhat of a benchmark in the sense of people taking disability when they truly needed it, then we are likely to have the same amount, probably less due to easier conditions, that truly need it today. Assuming that it means that 3 out of 4 on disability today are gaming the system to some extent compared to the population in 1985.

From what I've seen I don't think this is far from the truth.

~Matt


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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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This American Life also had an episode about disability. It's kind of sickening. Covers a county in Alabama where 1/4 of the working age people are on disability.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/...trends-with-benefits
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [dhyoung9] [ In reply to ]
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We're contracted with a lot of different companies as the clinic to come to for all of their injuries, but people can choose where to go under the laws. We often get folks who see their own provider sent to us for a second opinion. A lot of the time its valid- overuse injuries do take time to improve, and there are guidelines for post-surgical cases before a return to work is a good idea. There are also some very shady clinics- time off and vicodin for everyone! In house physical therapy 3 times per week until the insurance quits paying. Those piss me off- they rolled over on their objective decision making and are just lining up at the trough.


dhyoung9 wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
lunchbox wrote:
Workman's compensation and disability are seen as the great gravy train. I was a manager in a distribution center years ago, and people loved "getting hurt". It really screwed it up for the folks who really did get hurt and had a legitimate injury. The company's incident review policy was onerous, and had quite the adversarial feel.

I work as a medical provider in occupational health now, and see a good number of folks who just aren't motivated to get better. In a way I can't blame them- 50 years old and working in a warehouse or meat packing plant has to just suck. When its time to get back to work though, you gotta go.


Being in the physical therapy world we deal with this stuff all the time. I've seen patients that were shockingly honest about essentially gaming the system (usually in relation to some other claim they had going or their relative's issues).

Still it begs a couple of questions. How prevalent on the whole is this and what % of folks on SS disability are potential malingerers?


More than half are malingerers and fakes. Im in physical therapy profession also. It never fails, two people with the same injury, one with workers comp temporary income benefits takes 2 to 3 times as long to recover than someone with insurance and a job.Then when the income benefits run out, here comes a lawyer request for medical records and a disability claim. Ive almost quit taking workers comp because of the fraud. The SSi and SSDI are just the next final step for people that have done the worker comp racquet followed by the unemployment racquet. We as a nation have tried to do the right thing, cover on the job injuries for injured workers, provide income assistance for people that lose their jobs while they can search for a new one, and help all those that cant work for themselves.

But there are no personal morals anymore. 20 or 30 years ago, 9 out of 10 people would have thought it was immoral to take money from these programs and would have been completely embarassed and humiliated to mention it to anyone. Now, 9 out of 10 are hiring lawyers trying to figure out how to qualify, and don't care who knows or doesn't. It is a disgusting decay or personal morals and pride to live off of the work others, but since they see it as the governments its no one's money and they arent hurting anybody and they dont care.

******************************
If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [schroeder] [ In reply to ]
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The TAL report was very well done - it highlighted the problem of children on SSDI - if they get better the family loses a major source of income. Although TAL, and 60 minutes, tend to focus on the sleazy lawyers getting rich rather than the freeloaders.

I am surprised that no one has connected the dots on a number of these issues - record low participation in the workforce keeping unemployment percentages down, record high numbers of SSDI participants, one party looking to reform the entitlements. With 9M people of voting age on SSDI and the last presidential election being decided by ~5M votes, how many votes is a candidate that threatens these benefits going to get?
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [MJuric] [ In reply to ]
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MJuric wrote:
Still it begs a couple of questions. How prevalent on the whole is this and what % of folks on SS disability are potential malingerers?

I think it's very difficult to know how many are on disability under false pretense and to what extent. That being said we can, without question, say that jobs today are typically less physically demanding, less dangerous and thus less prone to injury then in the past. One would think that due to this the percentage of population on disability should be going down, in fact quite the opposite.

In 1985 only 2.2% of adults ages 25-65 were on SSDI. Today that number is closer to 9%.


IOW we have easier jobs, less prone to injury and the percent of people on disability has increased four fold in just under 30 years.

You can only walk away from that with a couple possible conclusions. Either people in 1985 were a hell of a lot more sturdy and less frail then we are today or there are a hell of a lot more people on disability today that never would have been for similar "Ailments" in 1985. I'm going with the later.

If we assume that 1985 was somewhat of a benchmark in the sense of people taking disability when they truly needed it, then we are likely to have the same amount, probably less due to easier conditions, that truly need it today. Assuming that it means that 3 out of 4 on disability today are gaming the system to some extent compared to the population in 1985.

From what I've seen I don't think this is far from the truth.

~Matt


Thanks for the informative post.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [eddiep] [ In reply to ]
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eddiep wrote:
Agree with Allie:

The secondary fraud is getting your child diagnosed with a "mental disability" and getting paid for that. ADD/ADHD are the classics. But it's so easy for the parents to go to the doc and report subjective symptoms and score the diagnosis.

Another point they didn't make on the show. A LOT of the fraudulently disabled actually have cash-paying under the table jobs - gardener, housecleaner etc. So they actually make much more money, and just don't report it or pay taxes on their income.

To speak to that, I had a lady that helped me clean the house and she started complaining that I was paying her with checks. She wanted cash. I told her checks or she could clean elsewhere. I am not going to be a party to someone's fraud.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [QBC] [ In reply to ]
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QBC wrote:
The TAL report was very well done - it highlighted the problem of children on SSDI - if they get better the family loses a major source of income. Although TAL, and 60 minutes, tend to focus on the sleazy lawyers getting rich rather than the freeloaders.

I am surprised that no one has connected the dots on a number of these issues - record low participation in the workforce keeping unemployment percentages down, record high numbers of SSDI participants, one party looking to reform the entitlements. With 9M people of voting age on SSDI and the last presidential election being decided by ~5M votes, how many votes is a candidate that threatens these benefits going to get?

What percentage of folks vote, especially from this demographic/socioeconomic group?

I'm going to guess no where near the 5/9th it would have taken to swing the election?
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [MJuric] [ In reply to ]
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One would think that due to this the percentage of population on disability should be going down, in fact quite the opposite.

IIRC, the This American Life episode (see my other post) interviewed consultants working for states to convert state welfare recipients to Fed disability recipients. IOW, states pushing their costs over to the fed.

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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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I want to watch more, but that video is 33 sec. long. Anything longer?
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [littlefoot] [ In reply to ]
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littlefoot wrote:
I want to watch more, but that video is 33 sec. long. Anything longer?

Here is the entire segment: http://www.cbsnews.com/.../watch/?id=50156574n

Cracks me up how 60 Minutes is being attacked for this story. Unreal.

http://www.latimes.com/...1007,0,7195237.story

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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All in all, 41% of all applicants end up with checks. Sound easy to you?

Uhhh...yes. 41% of applicants end up with checks? Yes that sounds ridiculously easy to me considering anyone can apply. I could apply, this means I have almost a 50/50 chance of getting a check.

~Matt

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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [MJuric] [ In reply to ]
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"Uhhh...yes. 41% of applicants end up with checks? Yes that sounds ridiculously easy to me considering anyone can apply. I could apply, this means I have almost a 50/50 chance of getting a check."

41% of all applicants receive checks doesn't mean that 41% of all people would receive checks if they applied.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Yup. Pretty clear that since the Federal Government can't get this right, we should kill the program, and all programs that help people and have fraud associated with them- like medicare, and give the job to churches where it belongs.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [morey000] [ In reply to ]
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morey000 wrote:
Yup. Pretty clear that since the Federal Government can't get this right, we should kill the program, and all programs that help people and have fraud associated with them- like medicare, and give the job to churches where it belongs.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why we are screwed.

What a foolish, ignorant, uneducated (and completely expected) response.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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I did listen to the 60min show. I kinda' got the impression that, given your libertarian views, that you were holding this up as an example of another thing that the government shouldn't be doing, because they cannot transfer money without a leaky bucket. So- did I get that wrong? What was your intent with this post?
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [morey000] [ In reply to ]
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morey000 wrote:
I did listen to the 60min show. I kinda' got the impression that, given your libertarian views, that you were holding this up as an example of another thing that the government shouldn't be doing, because they cannot transfer money without a leaky bucket. So- did I get that wrong? What was your intent with this post?


I thought I was pretty clear in my OP -- burn it down and re-build it from scratch. It is beyond fixing, but, I am not taking the position that it should be an eliminated function of govt.

EDIT TO ADD: I would take a large portion of the function away from the feds and give it to the states.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Last edited by: JSA: Oct 7, 13 15:57
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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41% of all applicants receive checks doesn't mean that 41% of all people would receive checks if they applied.

Yes, and? I'm saying that 41% of people that apply for a cash benefit that has no prerequisites to apply seems to be a very high number. I'm not saying that this number would stay the same if EVERYONE applied for it.

~Matt



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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
- burn it down and re-build it from scratch. It is beyond fixing, but, I am not taking the position that it should be an eliminated function of govt.

EDIT TO ADD: I would take a large portion of the function away from the feds and give it to the states.

Because killing the program is better than refining the law to try to stem the abuse? I'm sorry- while i'm no expert in our disability laws, I'm guessing that would be a huge mess.

and- giving it to the states would be better, why again? So individual states could decide if they even want to support people with disabilities? So, all the disabled people would move from AZ to CA? yeah- great idea. you're a friggen genius, whereas I'm uneducated.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [schroeder] [ In reply to ]
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schroeder wrote:
This American Life also had an episode about disability. It's kind of sickening. Covers a county in Alabama where 1/4 of the working age people are on disability.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/...trends-with-benefits

That's Hale County, a small (pop. 15000) and very poor county. About a year ago, I was driving in a lower class neighborhood in Birmingham, AL and was flagged over by a lady. Gave her a ride to Walmart. She was stone drunk. Asked me what I did, and I just said something like, "not much" as I didn't want to talk to her. She said, "Are you on disability?" (I look healthy and not-disabled). I had no clue what she was talking about at the time.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [morey000] [ In reply to ]
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Between this:
morey000 wrote:
Yup. Pretty clear that since the Federal Government can't get this right, we should kill the program, and all programs that help people and have fraud associated with them- like medicare, and give the job to churches where it belongs.

and stuff mentioned in the LA Times article:
Quote:
His chief source was Sen. Tom Coburn, an Oklahoma Republican with a documented hostility to Social Security.

Is it any wonder we can't get anywhere on entitlement reform? As Coburn said, this is a good program with good intentions, but without proper oversight it can be taken advantage of, especially since once you're on the gravy train it's almost impossible to be thrown off. I don't believe anyone can walk into one of these lawyer's offices and get SSDI, but I do think a little desperation and a little back or knee pain or frequent headaches might convince someone they're worthy of disability insurance, and the lawyers being paid by the federal government are all too happy to oblige.

By the way, the piece linked in the Times article above? It first mentions how anyone trying to save Social Security for the long run is attacked (no surprise there, since the Times writer somehow read the Daily Beast article and concluded that Coburn is 'hostile' toward SS), then lays out his simple plan: increasing the retirement age--no brainer there, people live longer and are largely healthier in their 50's and 60's than in the past--and targeting those who need it, means testing of a sort that should be a slam dunk for liberals. But I guess that's 'hostility' to the Times...
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [MJuric] [ In reply to ]
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"Yes, and?"


And, that means that it's incorrect to assume that just because 41% of applicants get benefits, that you would have almost a 50/50 chance.


"I'm saying that 41% of people that apply for a cash benefit that has no prerequisites to apply seems to be a very high number. I'm not saying that this number would stay the same if EVERYONE applied for it. "

There's hardly anything that you apply for that has a prerequisite for you to apply. You can apply for anything you want. You just will probably get disapproved for many of those things. For SS disability, anyone could apply, I suppose. But you still have to provide a bunch of info, and the SSA has to check your medical records, determine if you qualify, etc.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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As GOP members go, Coburn is often a terrific voice of reason. I like him.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [morey000] [ In reply to ]
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morey000 wrote:
JSA wrote:
- burn it down and re-build it from scratch. It is beyond fixing, but, I am not taking the position that it should be an eliminated function of govt.

EDIT TO ADD: I would take a large portion of the function away from the feds and give it to the states.


Because killing the program is better than refining the law to try to stem the abuse? I'm sorry- while i'm no expert in our disability laws, I'm guessing that would be a huge mess.

and- giving it to the states would be better, why again? So individual states could decide if they even want to support people with disabilities? So, all the disabled people would move from AZ to CA? yeah- great idea. you're a friggen genius, whereas I'm uneducated.



i did not say kill the program. Twice now, I have clearly and unequivocally stated that the system should remain, but, needs to be stripped down and rebuilt. Many states have done similar with other programs. Yeah, it would work.

You think the states could not handle it? How do you think Medicaid works? Yes, you are ignorant. Sorry if that hurts your feelings or feels like a personal attack. No, I am not calling you stupid. Google the definition of each word.

States are much better equipped to deal with their own populous. Smaller local units run more efficiently and can screen for more abuse. It still would not be perfect, but, would be a huge leap in the right direction.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone know how much a person can make per year being on disability? I think 30 years ago it was a very small amount somewhere about the poverty line. Is this still the case? If so you probably have to live with mom and dad to afford this lifestyle choice.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [patf] [ In reply to ]
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patf wrote:
Anyone know how much a person can make per year being on disability? I think 30 years ago it was a very small amount somewhere about the poverty line. Is this still the case? If so you probably have to live with mom and dad to afford this lifestyle choice.

You think it is that difficult? I have clients whose former employees now live off SS disability. Wifey is a rehab director for a long term care facility. Every day, she sees people who live off SS disability. Every. Day.

Here you go: http://www.ssa.gov/dibplan/dqualify.htm

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [patf] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure how it is done all the time and the different states, but when my sister applied it was based on her work history. Just the same as SSI benefits are, so if you worked a lot and made good money, you could get a couple grand a month or so. And in CA it was very difficult for her to get on disability, took her two years before they let her on, and just barley. I won't go into any details, but she died 6 months later in her mid 40's from one of many things that should have been evident and fast tracked her onto this program.

For sure there is a ton of abuse and it should be weeded out and prosecuted. It was shameful to watch that guy squirm when asked about his rubber stamping doctors. But lets not throw the baby out with the bath water here, always seems to be that kind of attitude when some little group is found out in a huge program. If everyone in ca had to go through what my sister did, i cannot imagine that many have fallen through the cracks. But of course there will be groups that band together and just steal, those are the hard ones to ferret out. Perhaps some sort of group that main job is to follow up after the approvals. I know in the old days in workers comp they would try and catch folks doing some heavy lifting or other things that they were supposed to not be capable of.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Workers compensation is abused, but, not nearly to the extent of SSD. I wonder why that is? Could it have anything to do with the fact that workers comp is run by the states (rather than the feds)? Hmmm....

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [patf] [ In reply to ]
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"Anyone know how much a person can make per year being on disability?"

I think max disability benefit from SS is around $2400.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
"Anyone know how much a person can make per year being on disability?"

I think max disability benefit from SS is around $2400.

Yep. $2533 (per month) or $30,396/yr for 2013.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
patf wrote:
Anyone know how much a person can make per year being on disability? I think 30 years ago it was a very small amount somewhere about the poverty line. Is this still the case? If so you probably have to live with mom and dad to afford this lifestyle choice.


You think it is that difficult? I have clients whose former employees now live off SS disability. Wifey is a rehab director for a long term care facility. Every day, she sees people who live off SS disability. Every. Day.

Here you go:http://www.ssa.gov/dibplan/dqualify.htm[/quote[/url]]

I don't know if it is difficult, that is why I asked how much you can make. It appears a family could get about $50,000 a year max if you had a high paying job before the disability. Or about 10,000 if single or 15,000 for family if you had a lower paying job. 15,000 is not a lot to live on most places. I would not want to raise a family on it.

Of course if you are scamming the system and still working for cash, and Disability you get is just extra money, but for those working poor who become disabled, this is a fairly minimal benefit.
Last edited by: patf: Oct 7, 13 18:59
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [QBC] [ In reply to ]
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QBC wrote:
The TAL report was very well done - it highlighted the problem of children on SSDI - if they get better the family loses a major source of income. Although TAL, and 60 minutes, tend to focus on the sleazy lawyers getting rich rather than the freeloaders.

I am surprised that no one has connected the dots on a number of these issues - record low participation in the workforce keeping unemployment percentages down, record high numbers of SSDI participants, one party looking to reform the entitlements. With 9M people of voting age on SSDI and the last presidential election being decided by ~5M votes, how many votes is a candidate that threatens these benefits going to get?

Which party is that? What SS and Medicare reforms have they suggested, because I am not aware of any? I'm waiting for the Republican's to put Medicare Part D on the table and propose we get rid of it. Instead they want to beat the drum about The Affordable Care Act, when they know they have no chance. If the Republican admitted Part D was a mistake, do you think the Democrats are going to disagree? I can hear Harry Reid now, coming to the defense of the policies of GW Bush.

Likewise, aside from Coburn (who I won't tarnish by calling a Republican), where are all these 'pubs looking to reform SS disability? C'mon, the supposedly "liberal media" (e.g. anyone who is not Fox) does a major story on abuse of SS disability and the 'pubs still have no balls? 60 minutes threw out a ton of political cover here, you can blame all abuses on lawyers, the fraud is so blatant, who would oppose doing something to address it (unless you were faking it when you claimed you were looking to reform the entitlements)?

There are a lot more outraged independents than people on the gravy train of undeserved benefits.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
"Uhhh...yes. 41% of applicants end up with checks? Yes that sounds ridiculously easy to me considering anyone can apply. I could apply, this means I have almost a 50/50 chance of getting a check."

41% of all applicants receive checks doesn't mean that 41% of all people would receive checks if they applied.

True. Based on the 60 Minutes piece, it was closer to 100% of applicants (as long as you had the right lawyer).
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
Workers compensation is abused, but, not nearly to the extent of SSD. I wonder why that is? Could it have anything to do with the fact that workers comp is run by the states (rather than the feds)? Hmmm....

I'm assuming you are getting at the fact that states have to actually balance budgets, at least to the extent that they can't just print money and run indefinite and growing deficits.

States are smart, as someone pointed out, the "This American Life Story" (crazy that the "liberal" media like NPR would want to do a story about people scamming government handouts;) was all about States taking their expensive problems and making them the Feds problem. Why not, when the Federal government doesn't really try to fight it. Sure we'll just borrow more money to pay for it.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:

i did not say kill the program...

I stand corrected. you said "burn it down". Obviously, it was my ignorance that confused me.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [morey000] [ In reply to ]
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morey000 wrote:
JSA wrote:

i did not say kill the program...

I stand corrected. you said "burn it down". Obviously, it was my ignorance that confused me.

Well obviously it is. I said burn it down and rebuild it from scratch. That is quite the opposite of killing the program.

You are looking for a fight but are too ignorant to realize there isn't one to be had. Well, except for your apparent asinine position that we allow this failing system, which will soon run out of money, stand in its present form. That is ignorant. No other term for it.

One of this nation's biggest problems is educated people like you who know so little.

You probably also believe that the NFL using pink penalty flags for the month of October actually makes a difference in the number of women who will suffer from breast cancer this year.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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When I was on active duty, I injured my right hand and ended up with a partially functional right pinkie finger. I basically cut all the tendons that curl the finger, resulting in a permanently extended finger unless I manually curl it using my left hand.

When I got out of the Navy, I did the standard visit to the VA to establish that I was a vet and living in their area. The Dr. tried to get me to apply for a 10% disability at that time, which I refused and opted for a 0% disability that registered the injury but did not pay anything out. The Dr. told me I was "throwing away" money, to which I replied "Maybe, but every dollar I do not take will hopefully go to someone who really is disabled and needs that support".

Segue to a few months ago when someone at work who noticed my very polite right pinkie. They asked about it, I told them how it happened, and they also told me that I should go get what I "deserve" for my injury. I still disagree, I have never been limited by the injury in any way other than I cannot use a PR-24 side handle baton. I can handle any firearm, type on a typewriter, ride motorcycles, bicycles and drive trucks up to a 5 ton Army cargo truck. And, since I am no longer in a law enforcement job, the fact that I cannot use a side handle baton is irrelevant because I am not legally entitled to carry that weapon any longer.

The fraud in the Federal system is beyond anyone reading this threads imagination. I personally know of Mexican nationals, not even residents of the US, who make thousands of dollars from welfare, WIC, SSD and all the other systems that basically give money away with little or no oversight. One in particular would cross the border every month, file for a permisso (permission to go beyond 15 miles from the border crossing), and then would visit multiple post office boxes in California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas before she would drive all the way back to Baja Norte, Mexico where she owned a factory producing clothing. She drove a $90K car and usually made more than $10K from each monthly trip. I tried to contact the offices and state programs that administered the Federally funded programs, and only one would even talk to me (Texas). They told me they could do nothing about it, that their job was to give the money away and another office would look for any fraud. When I called the fraud office, they told me that they did not have the funding to investigate that fraud since it did not exceed $25K and would not even take my information for the record.

This is just what one person working on the border saw. Multiply that by the number of people crossing the border, both north and south, and add it to the millions of people living in the US who are as equally willing to defraud the benefit system in the US. Bureaucracies do not grow by reducing the number of people who they service, they grow by adding to that clientele and increasing the funding passing through their accounts. There is no incentive to reduce the number of people in the system. There is a disincentive to reduce the clientele as the number of customer service reps is directly related to the work load, while the number of managers and executive (and their pay levels), is related to the number of customer service reps, support personnel and the funding they disburse.

The system is broken and the only way we will ever fix it is to fundamentally change how it works. Imagine if the offices that investigate fraud would get a portion of the fraud they discover added to their budget. Add a simple check and balance to make sure that the fraud enforcement is fair and reasonable, and voila, there might be less fraud in the system. Until we do that or something that would reduce the fraud without dumping the legitimate clientele on the street, we will face the risk that the WHOLE system will crumble. Because how long will it be until the bureaucracy decides that I MUST apply for the disability in my right hand, along with everyone else because those who take such money are seen as oxen with rings in their noses by the politicians, dumb but capable of being led by the masters in DC.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
"Anyone know how much a person can make per year being on disability?"

I think max disability benefit from SS is around $2400.

My 40 year old ex wife gets about $1400 for herself, and $350 for each of our two kids. Meanwhile, she owns a horse training business where she claims 20,000 miles per year on her truck, takes care of and trains hunter jumper horses, goes fox hunting every weekend, wins horse shows, and claims a yearly net income of -$30,000 per year.
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Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
Workers compensation is abused, but, not nearly to the extent of SSD. I wonder why that is? Could it have anything to do with the fact that workers comp is run by the states (rather than the feds)? Hmmm....

Or that folks on worker's comp have a history of working?
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