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Venge vs S5
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which bike should I buy? My beloved Cervelo SLC-SL is nearly the end of its life (8 years and 65,000 miles). Plan to slap 50/34 Super Record EPS on it....

would love any guidance from those in the know!

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Not one that you asked about but I just got a Boardman AiR 9.8 from Davis Wheelworks. Phenomenal bike-- and more comfortable than I anticipated and handles exceptionally well.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I have an S5, and believe the S5 to be a bit more aero than the Venge, but really, even if you are using this to do fairly competitive bike racing, get the one that you just LIKE better.

Or, one or the other might present a fit problem, which would help you decide.

The boardman bikes are also excellent like Carl Spackler said (he is kind of a big deal, so worth listening to). If you need a lower stack bike, the boardman may work better than the S5. They just recently became officially available in the USA. Not sure what the Venge geometry is like

A review of the S5 features:
http://austintriathlonstore.blogspot.com/...d-bike-in-world.html

and the Boardman Air:
http://austintriathlonstore.blogspot.com/...tish-powerhouse.html



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Venge vs S5 [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Oh man, you went aero road.
The consequences will never be the same.

Of course its getting to be common now, even people that make fun of me are riding Scott Foils at least!

Carl Spackler wrote:
Not one that you asked about but I just got a Boardman AiR 9.8 from Davis Wheelworks. Phenomenal bike-- and more comfortable than I anticipated and handles exceptionally well.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Venge vs S5 [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Carl Spackler wrote:
Not one that you asked about but I just got a Boardman AiR 9.8 from Davis Wheelworks. Phenomenal bike-- and more comfortable than I anticipated and handles exceptionally well.

I was wondering how you were liking the Boardman. Any crit work on it yet? The BMC TMR01 has been just OK for crits, great for road racing (in fact, had a stage race last weekend where they mandated mass start legal bikes only for a super short 4 mile TT and it was perfect there) ;-) I still prefer the handling of my old Wilier in a crit (that and the traditional brakes).

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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You want to checkout Velonews' Aero Revisited article. The S5 beat the Venge by 5W @ 30MPH, and the Venge didn't beat the S5 in any way I consider noteworthy.

The Litespeed won the overall, but only because their "scientific weighting" scheme does not use Slowtwitch-approved relative weights, e.g. where attaching a sack of anvils to your top-tube is preferable to losing 0.0001CdA, and where stiffness is only important for "victory celebration" and not your bottom bracket.
Last edited by: trail: May 22, 13 15:08
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I rode a Venge for 4 months and an S5 for 6 months so this is only a limited impression.

Aero: I couldn't tell. My average speeds were pretty close, given the same power. However, there's too many factors in play to say conclusively with my data.(from what I can recall anyways)

Comfort: I was never comfortable on the Venge. It seemed like I got pretty beat up on it, especially on anything beyond 30 miles. The S5 rode alot like my previous S3 and always felt fine(note: I said "fine" as it's definitely not the most comfortable bike in the world. I didn't expect it to be anyways)

Stiffness: Neither frame flexed when mashed on.

Looks: Venge wins, hands down. This is purely an individual taste though so take it for what it's worth.

Note: My fit on both was identical, so was the wheelset and saddle(I kept these when I switched bikes). In addition, I rode far less when I had both bikes(like 130-160 miles/week) so take what I said with that in mind.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [IzzyG] [ In reply to ]
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Agree on ride quality of the Venge, I thought it was terrible (went to an SL4 after riding a Venge for a couple of months).
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:
which bike should I buy? My beloved Cervelo SLC-SL is nearly the end of its life (8 years and 65,000 miles). Plan to slap 50/34 Super Record EPS on it....

would love any guidance from those in the know!

What do you want to do with it?

For my $$ the Venge is a better "overall road bike" with the attributes of stiffness, weight, aero, and comfort/compliance getting equal weighting - and so was the SLC-SL.
If you want to put more emphasis on one of those metrics; say aerodynamics, the S5 might be a better bike.

What do you hate about your SLC-SL?

-SD

https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I'm surprised bobby11 hasn't chimed in here yet ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Venge vs S5 [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Did you do the Echelon Gran Fondo and wear a Cytosport or Cytomax kit?

Tim, knowing that I like to ride obscure brands, has been talking to me about getting on a Boardman for a while now. How do you like it and do you have anything to compare it to?
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Re: Venge vs S5 [riotgear] [ In reply to ]
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Not me, I was on Diablo that day.

Here's the exact feedback I gave Joe and Sherpa (Tim)--
Ride quality is excellent, better than I expected for an aero frame. I'd put it between the TeamMachine, which is pretty comfy for a race bike, and the SL4, which is a little rougher but more responsive (that's more a nod to the exceptional comfort of the BMC versus others). I can see riding it all day with no problem and will report back after hopefully getting 4+ tomorrow including up Diablo. I rode it for two hours yesterday in really blustery conditions: handling is precise, steering predictable, and when out of the saddle the response is instant. It was pretty grabby in crosswinds although I can't say if that was entirely the conditions or partly due to the frame. Overall I give it two thumbs up. Super impressed and really happy with it.

Second ride was 4.5 hours with 7k of climbing; it goes up and downhill equally well. I've been fortunate to have a lot of nice bikes and am pretty indifferent to shiny new object syndrome. Have to say this is bike is my fav amongst all. Tim is spot on: go for it if you want something different but as good or better than the like.

@Rod: trying to minimize crits this year for obvious reasons. My impression of the handling is that it would be a good one.
[/img]
Pick I snapped before leaving dW2 last week. Just shy of 17 lbs with clunker 808 FC clinchers and SRM. Not a lightweight, and will be more reasonable with 404s/
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Re: Venge vs S5 [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I own both and, I've gotta say, having these two steeds in the stable is a dream. I have to agree with SuperDave's assessment. The Venge is a bit lighter and, in my view, livelier. I've done many fast centuries on it and have had no comfort issues. The S5 hasn't been in the stable that long. I think its added weight and stiffness is noticeable ... But so is its speed. It's a damned fast bike on flat to gently-rolling terrain. It handles better than any bike I've ever ridden. I did one crazy-fast century on it about six weeks ago. I was looking around at folks who looked like they were on a death march and I was cruising and thinking, "this thing is like an unfair advantage. But at 75 miles, when I was one of a handful still at the pointy end of the "ride," we hit a big hill and it was all over. I really felt I was struggling to drag the thing up. At that point, though, I might have felt the same on the Venge. And I might not have hung in to that point on the Venge. Who knows.

It all comes down to what you want from the bike.

If you want pure riding fun, I also have an R5 vwd. Not an aero bike, but fabulous ride quality, very light and lively and still plenty fast.
Last edited by: bobby11: May 22, 13 18:04
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Re: Venge vs S5 [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
You want to checkout Velonews' Aero Revisited article. The S5 beat the Venge by 5W @ 30MPH, and the Venge didn't beat the S5 in any way I consider noteworthy.

The Litespeed won the overall, but only because their "scientific weighting" scheme does not use Slowtwitch-approved relative weights, e.g. where attaching a sack of anvils to your top-tube is preferable to losing 0.0001CdA, and where stiffness is only important for "victory celebration" and not your bottom bracket.


I almost bought the S5 to replace an old P2 since I wanted an aero road bike as my primary daily ride rather than a tri bike. But after I read that article in Velo News last winter, I checked out the Litespeed C1R and was sold in a second.

As Velo News put it: "It is very nearly as good as the best here and is still faster than any traditionally shaped frame, making it the undisputable winner for your wallet." And they didn't even test the C1R frame, which is made with a higher-end carbon so it's lighter and stiffer than the C1 frame.

I have about 2,000 miles on the my C1R since I had it built in January (with Reynolds carbon clinchers) and I still cannot believe how impressive it is. A friend of a guy in my cycling group has the (lesser model) C1 built up as a TT/tri bike that he's raved about. He rode it to a 10:30 finish at IMCDA (which included a mechanical failure) and is legitimately shooting for a Kona spot this year.
Last edited by: elburrito99: May 22, 13 22:05
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Re: Venge vs S5 [elburrito99] [ In reply to ]
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I have a S5 and love it.

Formely stef32
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Again, not on your list but I have clocked up 10k km on a Foil. In that time, most of the other early owners (all of whom are into racing) have moved to different frames. The major reason cited was a desire for increased ride comfort. Though I've not ridden a Venge, the feedback I've heard was that it too suffers issues with ride comfort. This really shouldn't come as a surprise and perhaps some people are learning firsthand what qualities they appreciate most in a frame.

A possible magnification of the problem is down to the choice of wheelset, tyre width and riding pressure. Rim depth isn't the whole story either, since I've found Fulcrum Zeros too much and Zipp alloy 303s and HED Jets better.

Between the Venge and the S5 and without an opportunity to test ride, I would choose the S5 and save my pennies for the VWD version.

As for stack height, so many people want the slammed stem look but lack the flexibility and core support. At least with an S5 and the tall front end, you will have fewer spacers and there is always the option of a -17º stem.

Though I'm happy to have a lighter bike, I'm unconvinced the weight differences systematically lead to getting dropped on climbs. I see a lot of MCippolini RB1000s at the pointy end of mountain stages and that is not a light frame.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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By the title it appears you're interested in an aero road bike, whatever your reasons consider your options.

Venge, S5, Boardman 9.4, Blue AC1, Scott Foil, BH G6, Felt AR, Giant Propel, Cipollini, Lightspeed C1, Ridley Noah, BMC TMR01, and I am sure there are more.

Personally, I would look for used BH G5.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
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+1 for S5. Mine has been awesome with a -17 stem to get low enough, ride quality is good but it's no R5. Handly is very snappy, the bike really does feel like it was made to go fast. Also feels very stiff, but I'm not bending any frames with the twigs attached to my hips so take that for what it's worth. And definitely better looking than the Venge

-------------
It never gets easier, you just go faster.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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thanks everyone...I'm overwhelmed with the response!

For the record I don't hate my SLC-SL, in fact love it...but just about everything else is worn out now (and by the way, I have replaced my chain and rings 5 times already).

My one complaint about the SLC is its flexiness....I know its a stiff bike but I have issues here when I crank it.

Anyways, looks like S5 for me. One factor is I am so old now I actually think the big head tube is a good thing...

I'll post pics when I get it....strange to buy a TM01 and a S5 in the same year but i guess I'm strange!

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
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this is one of the best posts I've ever had the privilege to read!

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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i haven't ridden the s5 (generally not a fan of cervelo aesthetics, so my decision is not based on performance--the giant HT is also a non-starter for me), but the sole reason i am writing is that i have significant time on the venge. it seems that many of the comments here are of the nature "i heard so-and-so thinks the venge is too stiff".

i had to order the venge before having a change to ride it. i'd spent a great deal of time on a tarmac sl2 and sl3, so i was't worried about the geometry, but all that i'd heard about how stiff and "harsh" (that harsh term was the one that kept coming up) made me a bit nervous.

i have raced (yes raced) the roubaix (SL and SL2), tarmac, and more recently the venge for distances up to 200 miles (9-10h, no time off the bike).

i also have a tarmac sl4.

i will say that the roubaix series is noticeably more comfortable over the long-haul, but the venge is on-par with the tarmac SL4 and less harsh than the SL3. a change of a few psi in a tire seems to make more of a difference on feel vs any differences in the frames.

for reference i am on the lighter side (~150#), pretty flexible (i'm one of those people who thinks HTs have gotten way too tall--i ride the venge with a slammed 140mm stem, and i've had to remove the "aero" dust cap in favor of one that sits 15mm lower), and prefer tire pressures in the 95-105psi range.

vs. the tarmac (which i also enjoy) i find the venge has some magic at 25mph. it just seems to come alive at those speeds. the tarmac, i find, has a slightly more lively feel at lower speeds (think steeper slopes). the frames are within 100g of one another for the same size. if you held me at gunpoint and made me give up one bike, i'd give away the tarmac (or any other bike i own or have owned in the past), and you'd have to pry the venge from my cold, dead fingers.

handling is great; i've raced many road races and crits with it. i routinely descend a mountain pass at speeds of 45-55mph (with heavy gusts) with no issues.

again, just want to offer this up so you can balance my n=1 with some other anecdotes about the venge.

i'd love to try a board man if the opportunity arose, particularly if it has a short HT.

good luck with your decision! i doubt you can go wrong.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [tetonrider] [ In reply to ]
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this is very helpful! thanks for your response. My wife has a Tarmac S-Works SL4 and Pete Reid used to be my coach so I am very Specialized.....

However, what i conclude is that I can get the top end S5 and get a really no compromise bike, and one that fits an old and not so flexible (but still very fast) guy....

I hope I'm right because I want to do this for at least another 7-8 years....thinking 65 might be the retire number....

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:
I'll post pics when I get it....strange to buy a TM01 and a S5 in the same year but i guess I'm strange!

Me too then - I got a TMR01 and a P5 a few months apart ... bit switched from your choices(s)
Nice to be "older" at times ;-)

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Randy,

I've had both... I can't say one dominated over the other - but I was more comfortable on the S5 for sure - and i have them both set up with essentially the same fit numbers.

A lot of people say the Venge is to "harsh" - but ultimately I've been able to do 3 to 3.5 hour rides on it without major issues... I will say when comparing the two I found the S5 way more comfortable climbing but the front end on the Venge seem stiffer to me and definitely was more comfortable (and faster for me) descending.

If you want a road racing and crit bike - I would get the Venge... but if you want a bike you can ride through the mountains all day long I'd go for the S5... (although to be honest for an all day riding bike I'd get an R3 or an R5...).

.ian
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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We've dealt with a number of the aero road bikes over the years, so I'll offer up some thoughts on the ones we are familiar with.

S5 - Although Cervelo clearly does not have that niche feel that it did years ago, you still do get that feeling of belonging to a members only club once you own one. That said, in terms of the "complete package", I think the S5 is tough to beat. For aero road bikes, if you look at whatever test from whichever group…you'll always find the S5 as a top contender. I remember Phil White saying something to effect of, "Our goal is to be #2 in all of our competitor's tests". The only knocks we hear about the S5 sometimes are that it can tend to stand up in high speed corners and that it's ride quality is slightly rough. Honestly, we rarely hear these complaints.

Felt AR - We wish we had better things to say about the current generation AR, because Jim Felt is hands down our favorite guy in the bike industry. Incredibly smart, innovative, loyal to his athletes - extremely undervalued in the industry as a whole. But….the current AR just doesn't make the cut. It's flexy to a fault. This simply kills the handling attributes and makes an already portly bike feel even more sluggish. We do like the stack height of the 54cm on up. The small sizes though, are just not viable.

BMC TMR01 - Interesting bike. The first one we built up was Laura Bennett's for London last year, and we were a bit dubious of the brakes. Have to say though, the brakes are very strong and easy to adjust. The in-line Shimano quick release for the brakes is just plain goofy though, so we really sell this bike as one that you need to use with current generation wide wheels. You want to train wide/race wide (with regards to wheels) because going in and adjusting the brake throw for different rim widths is simply not realistic for most people. Hell, we are pretty decent mechanics and we don't want to do it. The TMR01 is the stiffest (feeling) aero road bike in our estimation. It really jumps under acceleration and feels like a much lighter bike. Handling is not quite as nimble as the SLR01, but approaching. That puts it in very good company. Value wise - the TMR01 kind of sucks this year. We feel like sales hurt because the steep price. There is no doubt that this bike is cutting edge, but we would like to be able to put it under more riders. Out of all the bikes we mention, the TMR01 is the one that will likely have the most frequent shop visits. Although the brakes are not difficult, they are just different enough for many people to warrant more frequent attention.

Boardman AiR 9.8 - Full disclosure here - I'm a Boardman fanboy and have been trying to get the brand here in the US for several years. I work the ITU circuit, and will admit to having many pictures on my phone of the Brownlee's AiR's over the years. Having said that, the AiR intrigues me. I obviously don't know exactly where it stacks up aerodynamically among the other contenders. The general consensus is somewhere near the S3 range. We compare it to the S5 because again, the S5 is simply the gold standard. Ride quality is definitely quieter on the AiR as opposed to the S5 - centuries & such would be quite comfortable (in terms of dampening…not thinking fit right now). The bike "feels" lighter than it is too, suggesting that it has very good power transfer. Out of the saddle especially, the bike climbs more like an R5/SL4/SLR01. Maybe due to TT/DT shape resisting torsion better? Not sure why, but we're not complaining. Similarly, the bike descends and corners very sharply. Carl - you can answer this better than myself - but I feel like handling is actually very similar to the SLR01 (which I consider to be a top notch handling bike). The knock on the AiR is going to be fit geometry. Because it is outside the box these days (long/low), it's going to be a relative binary decision for most whether it fits or not…no real grey area. Value wise, we put the AiR 9.8 at the top of the list. At $2200 for the AiR 9.8 frameset, that is far more affordable than the top offerings from the other contenders. We've been building this frame up with awesome kits at prices we just can't approach with the other companies.

Specialized Venge - We are not a Specialized dealer these days, but being in NorCal (i.e. Specialized country) we see lots of the Big S on the road. Having said that - I feel like we do not see much of the Venge - it's predominantly Tarmac around these parts. From Cal Giant to the Specialized Masters Team to countless shop teams and clubs, there are lots of talented riders on these bikes. Carl, I'll call on you again - what's your Venge feedback from yourself and/or teammates over the years?

To the OP - this is Slowtwitch after all - so I am assuming you are pretty up to speed on what kind of geometry you need. One of the biggest drivers for you is going to be stack height. The difference between a "high" bike such as the S5 and a "low" bike such as the Boardman is not nominal. Although you may be able to get both bikes "to work", one likely fits your dimensions better than the other. The other bikes mentioned in this thread tend to fall somewhere in between these two bookends with regard to stack.

The other intangible that people don't like to talk about….get a bike that excites you. You need to want to ride it…to do big hours and hard miles on it. The bike that you are going to be fastest on is the bike that you get out and train on the most and most efficiently. Some of us can put all that aside and truly get the highest performance bike. Many of us though need the little extra motivation of a bike that really calls to us. For me these days, that bike is Boardman AiR, partly because of the performance, partly because of the heritage, partly because of the company being vested in triathlon.



Joe Santos


Joe Santos

Davis Wheelworks | dW² Facebook | dW² Twitter

BMC | Boardman | Cervélo | Felt | Lapierre | Atomic High Performance | ENVE | HED. | SRM | Stages | Zipp
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Answer: which one fits you?
Real answer: Venge. S5 is UGLY.


Brian Grasky
Grasky Endurance: World Championship Triathlon Coaching; Professional Training Camps
RETUL fitter, Biomechanist, USAT Level 3 Coach, USAC Level 2 Coach
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Re: Venge vs S5 [seebritri] [ In reply to ]
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Just my n=1 experience...

I have the S-Works Venge at size 54, (Matt-black with red colour) and SRAM Red group (+quarq PM) and ZIPP-202 wheelset with 25mm GP4000s tires at 85/90PSI. In my opinion, this combo looks just perfect... The decals on everything matches up nicely and it looks like a nice piece of bike-art that asks to be taken out.

I have ridden the bike for long-rides (+5hrs), done climbs on it (up to 17%) and rode it through typical Belgian crap weather on pothole-infested roads. I have yet to feel uncomfortable or feel the road sting me.

The 25mm tires make this bike the most comfortable road-bike I've had or have ever ridden (previous Giant TcR Carbon). The frame stiffness means you can hammer it on the straights, into bends and on the descends. Surely, it is not as light as the tarmac of other bikes,but I have not yet found the weight over the tarmac to play a major drawback. Then again, I haven't done any extensive climbing on it as well. Any time lost here, I'll probably can make up going downhill that much faster.

My advice is similar to others: It you can test, try both. then take into account what / where you will be using it much. If comfort is a issue for you, go with the 25mm tires. They help even Belgian cobblestone and pothole infested roads on a Venge feel smooth and that means something...

GReetz,

S.

Twitter Less, Tri Harder
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Re: Venge vs S5 [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
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well, the UCI has a weight limit, which most of these bikes can get well under quite easily. Even a large S5 can, with ultegra!

So yeah, generally frame weight is a total non issue. If you chose to abide by UCI weight limits, its *really* a non issue.



cerebis wrote:
I see a lot of MCippolini RB1000s at the pointy end of mountain stages and that is not a light frame.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Venge vs S5 [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
You want to checkout Velonews' Aero Revisited article. The S5 beat the Venge by 5W @ 30MPH, and the Venge didn't beat the S5 in any way I consider noteworthy.

The Litespeed won the overall, but only because their "scientific weighting" scheme does not use Slowtwitch-approved relative weights, e.g. where attaching a sack of anvils to your top-tube is preferable to losing 0.0001CdA, and where stiffness is only important for "victory celebration" and not your bottom bracket.

Consider Noteworthy? You don't consider weight noteworthy? Per the article the Venge was the lightest bike they tested while the S5 was the heaviest.

And if Torstional stiffness is just a "victory celebration" than why is it so important to so many different manufactuers?

elburrito99 wrote:
As Velo News put it: "It is very nearly as good as the best here and is still faster than any traditionally shaped frame, making it the undisputable winner for your wallet."

Pretty sure that somebody planning on putting Super Record EPS (like the OP) on a bike isn't really worried about cost too much

_________________________________________________
When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey

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Re: Venge vs S5 [Turd Ferguson] [ In reply to ]
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Turd Ferguson wrote:
Consider Noteworthy? You don't consider weight noteworthy? Per the article the Venge was the lightest bike they tested while the S5 was the heaviest.

No, given the handful of grams difference, it is not noteworthy.

Quote:

And if Torstional stiffness is just a "victory celebration" than why is it so important to so many different manufactuers?

because it is really really hard to offer any meaningful differentiation with a bike. its a fucking bike. even the S5 aero features hardly matter unless you are doing an Eddy M TT at a competitive level, and that stuff takes big engineering brains and money to pull off.

so, you have marketing go on about stiffness and weight, even though you know full well all of the good bikes among your competition are WAY beyond stiff enough to do anything anyone on this planet will throw at it, and that the weight difference are too small to matter in any context other than a hill climb TT =)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Venge vs S5 [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I just like the comedy of an avowed anti weight weenie arguing the point when he rides a S5 VWD. If only Cervelo offered that bike in a slightly heavier, greatly lower cost version, Oh wait ;-).

Styrrell
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Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't pick it!

styrrell wrote:
I just like the comedy of an avowed anti weight weenie arguing the point when he rides a S5 VWD. If only Cervelo offered that bike in a slightly
heavier, greatly lower cost version, Oh wait ;-).



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Venge vs S5 [Joe Santos] [ In reply to ]
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Wow - that was a great read, thanks!

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: Venge vs S5 [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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So what would've you picked ;-)

Styrrell
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Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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The white one probably. But the 2012 VWD was pretty darn cheap round christmas time with the bro deal. So hard to say. I did like the paint on that one the best!



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Venge vs S5 [cidewar] [ In reply to ]
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A lot of people say the Venge is to "harsh" - but ultimately I've been able to do 3 to 3.5 hour rides on it without major issues... I will say when comparing the two I found the S5 way more comfortable climbing but the front end on the Venge seem stiffer to me and definitely was more comfortable (and faster for me) descending.

If you want a road racing and crit bike - I would get the Venge... but if you want a bike you can ride through the mountains all day long I'd go for the S5... (although to be honest for an all day riding bike I'd get an R3 or an R5...).


Wow. I have both bikes (currently) and ride them interchangeably and I would assess them EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. That's not to say you're wrong and I'm right. That's probably to say that only so much can be attributed to the frame and the rest comes down to how long your stem is, are you slammed or upright, what wheels/tires/tubes, etc. Though my fit parameters are as close as I can make them between the two bikes, there are some small differences and, to achieve the similarity in fit, I have a longer stem on one than the other, different stem angle, etc. I'm also running Firecrest 404 clinchers on one and Enve 6.7s on the other. I love both bikes, but I do agree with your final statement as regards the all day ride. That's on my R5.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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styrrell wrote:
I just like the comedy of an avowed anti weight weenie arguing the point when he rides a S5 VWD. If only Cervelo offered that bike in a slightly heavier, greatly lower cost version, Oh wait ;-).

Which is why have the "base model" :-P

Besides, I don't think Jack and I are so much "anti-weight-weenie" as we are "pro-what-really-matters-for-going-faster". Weight-weenism is rampant because people like easy things to measure...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Venge vs S5 [bobby11] [ In reply to ]
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Every now and then I try to notice comfort and stiffness differences between bikes but I still can't.

Saves me a lot of anxiety when picking bikes at least =)

I only have to consider wind tunnel, paint, and price!



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Venge vs S5 [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Take cost out of the picture and you wouldn't want a S5 VWD? Any way you slice it a lighter frame with the same aero properties will be faster. The cost to benefit ratio can be absurd, but the same can be said for a lot of aeo benefits. I don't doubt the hydraulic magura brake on the rear of a S5 is more aero than a 105 brake but with careful cable routing you're looking at a tiny benefit for $300 or so.

Styrrell
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Re: Venge vs S5 [Joe Santos] [ In reply to ]
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I'd put the Boardman slightly ahead of SLR01 in handling department and slightly behind in comfort; we're talking small amounts and rider preference. The SLR is probably the best do-everything bike I've been on, while the SL4 handles a little better but comes with a rougher ride. IMO the Boardman falls between the two, but the added advantage of aero. It really does feel lighter than it is when climbing and I was scratching my head how that could be. Your comments make sense as to why. From a crit to fondo, the AiR would be my choice.

Why are so many Specialized riders on an SL4 instead of Venge? That's tough to answer. Some people think it's too harsh a ride, others say it's fine. The SL4's ride is already "racey" so the inconsistent peer reviews and comments of it being even harsher might scare people off. The Tarmac is a fantastic bike and hard to go wrong with, which is why I chose it instead of the Venge. A lot of crit guys are riding it but not so many road racers, for obvious reasons.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Every now and then I try to notice comfort and stiffness differences between bikes but I still can't.

Come ride the roads I ride. You will. I know wheels, tires and pressures all weigh in enormously, but I can put the same wheels, tires and pressures on two bikes and go ride my Carolina pave and cross the RR tracks a few dozen times and all and ... well, I know the difference.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Every now and then I try to notice comfort and stiffness differences between bikes but I still can't.

Every time I go for a ride the same bike feels different. If I have a hangover, my bike is a rough riding, poor handling, slow POS. On better days I glide on clouds and fly down the switchbacks...



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Re: Venge vs S5 [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Mine just feels like a bike. I only notice if it starts making noise. I hate noise!

I do notice that TT bikes are fast though. Yay TT bikes!

rruff wrote:
Every now and then I try to notice comfort and stiffness differences between bikes but I still can't.

Every time I go for a ride the same bike feels different. If I have a hangover, my bike is a rough riding, poor handling, slow POS. On better days I glide on clouds and fly down the switchbacks...





Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Venge vs S5 [bobby11] [ In reply to ]
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This is one of the most interesting articles about frame stiffness I've seen (also some pics of some beautiful frames). It even has some anecdata in it.

Styrrell
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Re: Venge vs S5 [bobby11] [ In reply to ]
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bobby11 wrote:
Every now and then I try to notice comfort and stiffness differences between bikes but I still can't.

Come ride the roads I ride. You will. I know wheels, tires and pressures all weigh in enormously, but I can put the same wheels, tires and pressures on two bikes and go ride my Carolina pave and cross the RR tracks a few dozen times and all and ... well, I know the difference.

I'm with 'ya Bob. I've got the luxury of a large stable of bikes as well (9!) and they definitely all ride/feel different and I "like" each one for different reasons. Such is the life of a bike racer. I actually use a different bike for a tight, technical crit vs. an more open crit for example. TT bike though, just one (P5). Couple of cross bikes, etc.

Stiffness pretty hard to discern unless very obvious (like my BMC TMR01 vs. a Ti bike - huge difference). Actually the BMC is the first bike I've ever owned that I feel is TOO stiff. My foray into aero road bikes (2003 Soloist Carbon) was definitely NOT a great crit bike and on the other end though.

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: Venge vs S5 [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Man, I can't even tell speed differences. If anything my tt bike "feels" slower given the significantly less drag I feel riding it.

I thought I was the most fit agnostic person around, but maybe I'm wrong! I'm pretty happy on any bike (and most any road saddle) as long as my touchpoints are set.

23's vs 25's I can feel, though. Love me some biggie tires. Can't tell a wide rim from a narrow one, though. (On the same tire)

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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styrrell wrote:
Take cost out of the picture and you wouldn't want a S5 VWD?

There you go moving the goal posts again. Of course, if cost was not an issue (i.e. let's say they cost the same) why wouldn't one get the lighter model? Even though the mass difference we're talking about here is a MUCH lower factor in overall performance, it's still a factor.

However, you asked Jack why he went for the lighter model even though there is a less expensive model that gives the same aero performance. I did that analysis and made the logical choice of getting the less expensive model despite it being slightly higher mass.


styrrell wrote:
Any way you slice it a lighter frame with the same aero properties will be faster.


Of course.

styrrell wrote:
The cost to benefit ratio can be absurd, but the same can be said for a lot of aeo benefits.


Exactly. But the opposite can be said many times as well. For example, you need to buy a bike frame anyway, so you might as well get the one that actually makes you faster (if going faster is a priority, that is). There usually isn't much, if any, incremental cost to do so.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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I'm searching and searching through this thread but don't see the article you are referring to

styrrell wrote:
This is one of the most interesting articles about frame stiffness I've seen (also some pics of some beautiful frames). It even has some anecdata in it.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Venge vs S5 [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Never moved the goal posts at all, And I wouldn;t consider the costs of a S5 vs a VWD design incremental, nor would I consider the cost of a Magura rear brake over a 105 bike given the performance benefits but both seem to sell pretty well.

Styrrell
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Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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2012 models around christmas were pretty incremental cost wise.

Magura brakes for aero alone are a lot of $ per watts saved, but they are also a braking performance improvement, which might be a big deal for people who ride in the rain a lot, or on carbon braking surfaces a lot.

I don't do that, which is why I don't have maguras!

styrrell wrote:
Never moved the goal posts at all, And I wouldn;t consider the costs of a S5 vs a VWD design incremental, nor would I consider the cost of a Magura rear brake over a 105 bike given the performance benefits but both seem to sell pretty well.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Venge vs S5 [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
Turd Ferguson wrote:

Consider Noteworthy? You don't consider weight noteworthy? Per the article the Venge was the lightest bike they tested while the S5 was the heaviest.


No, given the handful of grams difference, it is not noteworthy.

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And if Torstional stiffness is just a "victory celebration" than why is it so important to so many different manufactuers?


because it is really really hard to offer any meaningful differentiation with a bike. its a fucking bike. even the S5 aero features hardly matter unless you are doing an Eddy M TT at a competitive level, and that stuff takes big engineering brains and money to pull off.

so, you have marketing go on about stiffness and weight, even though you know full well all of the good bikes among your competition are WAY beyond stiff enough to do anything anyone on this planet will throw at it, and that the weight difference are too small to matter in any context other than a hill climb TT =)

It's called nit picking Jack. That's what we do here (ST). I believe you won't be able to find many, if any, people on here that think weight is completely non-noteworthy. So for him to say that it's not noteworthy is BS. That's what I was calling him out on. Now, the degree as to it's noteworthy-ness is still TBD.

_________________________________________________
When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey

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Re: Venge vs S5 [Turd Ferguson] [ In reply to ]
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Well, three of us in this thread think the weight and stiffness differences are not noteworthy.

Hell I think the aero differences aren't really noteworthy either!

But less so than the other two =)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Venge vs S5 [Turd Ferguson] [ In reply to ]
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I believe you won't be able to find many, if any, people on here that think weight is completely non-noteworthy.

Lots of people are willing to argue the point but I haven't seen any that walk the walk or ride the ride. Unless you're riding Apex or 105, for example, you've paid good money for nothing more than weight

What I find odd about the weight doesn't matter crowd is, for almost all of them, I could find enough money spent on weight loss on there bikes to pay for a windtunnel session. Yet very few have actually spent money on a WT session.

Styrrell
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Re: Venge vs S5 [ollie3856] [ In reply to ]
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I have an SWorks Venge built to 16 lbs and absolutely love it. I can't comment on the comparison to an S5, but In my opinion, the ride quality complaints about the Venge are entirely unfounded. The bike rides great and is not overly harsh by any stretch. I am frequently on my bike for 5+ hour rides and the Venge doesn't beat me up any more than another bike. I have also ridden the bike in several races with dirt sections and while it is a bit "livelier" than I would like when it gets really rough, it isn't enough to make me consider another bike.

The bikes stiffness really shines when sprinting at BIG watts. The steering and BB stiffness are just so solid and confidence inspiring.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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Psh, every single person riding Flo wheels is talking the talking!

Or Hed Jets for that matter, to a lesser degree.

and people with wheel covers.

styrrell wrote:
I believe you won't be able to find many, if any, people on here that think weight is completely non-noteworthy.

Lots of people are willing to argue the point but I haven't seen any that walk the walk or ride the ride. Unless you're riding Apex or 105, for example, you've paid good money for nothing more than weight

What I find odd about the weight doesn't matter crowd is, for almost all of them, I could find enough money spent on weight loss on there bikes to pay for a windtunnel session. Yet very few have actually spent money on a WT session.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I love my S5. It does all I want it to and can do way more than I am able to make it.

My GF rides for a Specialized team, and a lot of the guys there have Venges. Damn, those are sexy bikes.

But, in the end the data, to me, seem to skew to the S5. And, my engineer's mind likes the data.

Disclosure: I ride for a Cervelo Dealer's team.


Twitter @achtervolger
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Re: Venge vs S5 [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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You missed the word completely if you think weight is completely unimportant then you wouldn't spend any money on anything which solely lessens weight.

Styrrell
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Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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But nobody thinks that

styrrell wrote:
You missed the word completely if you think weight is completely unimportant then you wouldn't spend any money on anything which solely lessens weight.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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styrrell wrote:
Unless you're riding Apex or 105, for example, you've paid good money for nothing more than weight

This doesn't make any sense
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Re: Venge vs S5 [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry nothing more than weight loss.

Styrrell
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Re: Venge vs S5 [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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S5 VWD is lighter than any version Venge anyways in the real world, so that point is moot.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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You keep telling yourself that DA 9000 is just lighter than 105 and not better.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Right not their isn't a simlar group but they just announced Ultegra 11 speed. So go with that. Still I doubt anyone has lost when the sole difference in bikes is DA9000 vs 105.

Styrrell
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Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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styrrell wrote:
I believe you won't be able to find many, if any, people on here that think weight is completely non-noteworthy.

Lots of people are willing to argue the point but I haven't seen any that walk the walk or ride the ride.


I do.


styrrell wrote:
Unless you're riding Apex or 105, for example, you've paid good money for nothing more than weight


We could go through the equipment on my bikes, and you might say "You could be just as fast on lower level equipment!" and then I'd have to explain all the ways (and horse trading) that the various equipment I use has been acquired and the little, or no (or, sometimes negative) incremental cost for each.

In reality, if I were to start from scratch and had no equipment, or access to the used market...I'd be perfectly happy, and just as fast on a base model S5 using Rival as I am on that same bike using the (used) Red parts I have on there now.

There's a reason I still use a $25 Scott 100K bar for TTs...and a reason that Robert refers to me as "The CheapAss Engineer^tm" ;-)



styrrell wrote:
What I find odd about the weight doesn't matter crowd is, for almost all of them, I could find enough money spent on weight loss on there bikes to pay for a windtunnel session. Yet very few have actually spent money on a WT session.

I still probably wouldn't spend the money on a tunnel visit...I find field testing to be more convenient, easier, and nearly as effective overall, not to mention considerably less expensive.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Just to bring things back around, if I were you, I'd hang on to the SLC-SL no matter what you get next, until you're sure the new one is an improvement over the SLC.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [Runless] [ In reply to ]
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Yep--that's the plan....

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I have a Speed Concept 7.0 with Apex and am stoked about my new Flo wheels. I would rather be on a 9.0 with Red and Zipps. I wish my bike was lighter, but not for what it would cost.

Side note: I do have a 2008 Scott Addict with mostly Rival that is 14.5 lbs (Enve 1.45 tubulars help) and I CAN tell a difference when riding up. And down, for that matter.

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: Venge vs S5 [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
You want to checkout Velonews' Aero Revisited article. The S5 beat the Venge by 5W @ 30MPH, and the Venge didn't beat the S5 in any way I consider noteworthy.

The Litespeed won the overall, but only because their "scientific weighting" scheme does not use Slowtwitch-approved relative weights, e.g. where attaching a sack of anvils to your top-tube is preferable to losing 0.0001CdA, and where stiffness is only important for "victory celebration" and not your bottom bracket.

I don't think you read that article right. The litespeed got last place.

As for wether the Venge beats the S5 in any meaniful way. I bought the Venge over the S5 because I liked the ride quality, better stiffness and lighter.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [stodr] [ In reply to ]
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>I don't think you read that article right. The litespeed got last place.

Yeah, meant Scott Foil...my bad.
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