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New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr
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Wahoo Fitness announced a new electronic trainer at interbike.

It's cog based like the Lemond Revolution. It's very quiet and has wireless data transmission on ANT+ and Bluetooth Smart.

It folds up small for travel and plugs into a 12v car cigarette lighter.

It also has a great road feel because it has a super heavy fly wheel to go with its electronic brake.

It has an open API so developers can code for it; you can put it in Slope or ERG mode while training.

Trainerroad and Kino map are two apps that support it right now; more are coming.

It's called the Wahoo Kickr and will be available this fall. Price will be announced at interbike. I'm in the wahoo booth so I'll try to answer any questions people have.

Here's a video with Mike from Wahoo talking about it: http://www.youtube.com/...youtube_gdata_player

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting...

DC Rainmaker has already had a look at it:
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/...o-fitness-kickr.html

Looks really promising! I like how TR can control the resistance.

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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cant wait for this to come out. do you know if it will be available in Europe and if so when??

http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Could very well be a CompuTrainer Killer.

Something tells me the slow release of RaceMate One as well as selling it to older users may be the nail in their coffin, especially if out of the box this is fully Ant capable and you can pretty much integrate your GPS or mapped courses
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [johanandbex] [ In reply to ]
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Mike from wahoo is going to chime in soon about that...

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Mike from Wahoo here. I am at Eurobike with the guys from TrainerRoad (and the rest of the bike industry ). I will do my best to answer any questions that you guys have about the KICKR at night. But I will answer every question that you all ask.

It's a pretty cool product an we've put a ton of thought into it. I can't wait to get folks riding on them!

In the meantime - read dcrainmaker's review. Yes - it is super quiet!

___________
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome. I want I want I want!
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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I love the open API. No more hacking or code of questionable legality to make games or racing apps with a powermeter! I also love the hints of "cheaper than a computrainer"

I noticed in dcrainmaker's review it mentions kinomap having multiplayer - is that full-on bike racing, with drafting simulated, or is it just head-to-head training?

STAC Zero Trainer - Zero noise, zero tire contact, zero moving parts. Suffer in Silence starting fall 2016
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Very cool. I may have to swap my Powerbeam Pro for one of these. I know you guys have done everything you can to support the PBP trainers, but I really hate not being able to control the trainer from TrainerRoad.

One question...how much is "significantly lower" than CompuTrainer pricing?
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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My biggest wants/desires

1) Feel - You really are never going to be able to simulate descents unless you add power to the rear, i.e.even free spin can be too light, but that is not as important to me as climbing. The real limitation to me on the Computrainer system are grades above 9%... for me especially when I get above 12, there is so much resistance at the rear wheel, it either slips, or you have to crank down a little harder. A cassette based flywheel mount obviously should remove the tire friction issue, so as long as the climbing is smoother and more realistic, then that is a huge win.

2) Integration with Google Maps, MapMyRide, GarminConnect, et al. - I don't care so much for fancy graphics, never really liked the "silver man" but want to quickly and easily be able to take a course or race that I have rode and be able to train on it. I think especially when you have somewhat reliable GPS or altimeter data, to be able to select a workout from the past I did on my bike and then be able to train on that same course and get a close proximity to the same feel, that is huge. Some of the Computrainer .3dc courses are close, but the process of creating my own has often been more of a chore than it should be, and I generally have to do a lot of manual work to really smooth things out.

3) Better editing / creation tools. Sort of piggybacking on #2, I would like to be able to take a course I rode and improve it.
-- a) Ability to add repeats - Would be nice to highlight a section of hill and approximate descent and then multiply it within a course and turn it into sections of hill repeats
-- b) Smarter smoothing - Most live courses get eratic data and the smoothing logic tends to flatten the hills. It would be nice to select a hill and smooth it based on either an average grade that is consistent, or apply several other profiles like rollers, table tops, or increasing grade to improve the workout. This would allow for reducing some hills for lighter rides, or really jacking it up during the meat of training.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry for repeat question (from facebook) -- so the resistance is adjusted by whatever is going on inside the trainer (and controlled for by Trainerroad eg) or do we have to change gears manually on the bike -- probably the latter, but just want to make sure. Thanks.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [dockt] [ In reply to ]
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You have a choice. The default for trainerroad will be Erg mode where the trainer will hold a certain resistance no matter your speed/cadence.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Definitely has the potential to be a huge game changer in the trainer industry... if the price is right.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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What would be a good price? I don't know the price btw; but I'm curious what you think.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Very cool, one of these would make the Michigan winter a little more fun. I'm hoping for a price in the $1k to $1200 range. I held off on buying a CT in hopes something like this would come out. CT seems about as advanced as a Commodor 64.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Dt34] [ In reply to ]
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$600-$800


http://www.clevetriclub.com

rob reddy
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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1000$ price range, if it is even less that would be amazing

Ewan

-------------------------

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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Below 1000$ it will be a killer if it has similar computrainer's features with up-to-date performance!
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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mike@wahoo wrote:
Mike from Wahoo here. I am at Eurobike with the guys from TrainerRoad (and the rest of the bike industry ). I will do my best to answer any questions that you guys have about the KICKR at night. But I will answer every question that you all ask.

It's a pretty cool product an we've put a ton of thought into it. I can't wait to get folks riding on them!

In the meantime - read dcrainmaker's review. Yes - it is super quiet!

Hi Mike, I asked you and Ray this question on Twitter and I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing...so, here it goes: What's the inertia of the flywheel? In other words, what mass of rider (translating linearly down the road) does the rotational kinetic energy of the flywheel represent?

The answer you gave on twitter was that the "inertia is engineered for 175 pound rider (at max resistance) riding up a 15% grade." My confusion with that answer is that the KE of the flywheel is merely a function of the rear "wheel speed" (i.e. the rotational velocity), not the load. I can understand that the max load could represent a 175lb rider going up a 15% grade, but that's independent of the KE...know what I mean? My suspicion is that your answer was referring to the load capability and not the system inertia.

For example, by my figuring, the "equivalent mass" of the LeMond Revolution is a bike+rider mass of ~43kg (http://www.wattagetraining.com/...ic.php?f=2&t=335) This is a function of the rotational inertia of the flywheel rotating at an 8:1 ratio with the rear cassette rotation rate.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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My opinion is that the smart price would be just under $1,000.

I base that off of a few points of data, obviously we have the higher end but non-computerized trainers falling in the few hundred dollar range, but less than $500. At or around $500 we start to have the LeMond become available, and a brief check shows you should be able to find LeMond + PowerPilot for under $1000.

Under $1000 we also have the Tacx offerings like the Bushido, and around a $1000 we have some of the PowerBeam offerings. Now, my fear that the pricing will be >1000 because of course we have the CompuTrainer sitting at $1500 and clearly that is a price that people have demonstrated they are willing to pay.

However, I could potentially use the same argument about the CT as the SRM. Some people have demonstrated a willingness to still pay a premium for the SRM despite cheaper options being available, simply based on the history and reputation of the product. Along similar lines, people may be willing to pay $1500 for a CT simply because it is such an established product.

I would argue that newer products that have launched at price points above $1000 have not historically had much success, I don't know how many power-equipped trainers CycleOps sells for example, however in my n=1 study, I don't know anyone who actually owns one, while I know of a few LeMonds and plenty of CTs.

So, to summarize my take, I suppose I’d say that under a grand, it’s a no brainer decision for a consumer to go with the Kickr over a CompuTrainer. Beyond that, you start to run the risk where consumers are may favor the established brand and product based off of a perception of reputation and reliability.

Now, personally, I’d argue that the CompuTrainer is an antiquated dinosaur that should have been killed off by a more technically advanced competitor a decade ago, but I don’t think all consumers are Engineers and necessarily share my sentiments.
Last edited by: tgarson: Aug 30, 12 13:42
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Tom,


I think the answer you received was an inadvertent mixing of a few numbers I have been throwing around at the show. Our flywheel actually weights in at around 6kgs with a rotational inertia of the system of around 0.32 kg*m^2. Based on your energy analysis that would put it at an equivalent bike/rider of about 24kg. We also have a 6 pole electromagnet brake that can deliver 8Nm of torque. We can add in brake torque dynamically to make up for the delta between real bike/rider weight and flywheel Inertia. This allows us to provide a feel that is about as close as you can get to going outside and riding without requiring a really massive flywheel.


thanks,


Chip@Wahoo
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [chippyhawkeye] [ In reply to ]
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Now, the second loaded question.... when can I buy one??
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
Now, the second loaded question.... when can I buy one??

Please, don't answer "fall", try to be more precise, if you can...
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
For example, by my figuring, the "equivalent mass" of the LeMond Revolution is a bike+rider mass of ~43kg (http://www.wattagetraining.com/...ic.php?f=2&t=335) This is a function of the rotational inertia of the flywheel rotating at an 8:1 ratio with the rear cassette rotation rate.

It'd be interesting to see a comparison table of equivalent inertial mass of trainers. Or, like for the Revolution, the virtual Crr and CdA.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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It looks like a Lemond killer too. Very very nice!
SteveMc
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [papaya] [ In reply to ]
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papaya wrote:
tgarson wrote:
Now, the second loaded question.... when can I buy one??


Please, don't answer "fall", try to be more precise, if you can...

if the answer was next week....... i'd have one in the mail to me!

Tim

(was looking at getting a CT and didn't/haven't wanted to pull the trigger on the outdated equipment)


Tim
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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mike@wahoo wrote:
But I will answer every question that you all ask.

Mike, toilet paper facing-in or facing-out?

--
Yes, I know it's grammatically incorrect. Blame AOL and their 90s-era character limits.
--
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [chippyhawkeye] [ In reply to ]
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chippyhawkeye wrote:
Hi Tom,


I think the answer you received was an inadvertent mixing of a few numbers I have been throwing around at the show. Our flywheel actually weights in at around 6kgs with a rotational inertia of the system of around 0.32 kg*m^2. Based on your energy analysis that would put it at an equivalent bike/rider of about 24kg. We also have a 6 pole electromagnet brake that can deliver 8Nm of torque. We can add in brake torque dynamically to make up for the delta between real bike/rider weight and flywheel Inertia. This allows us to provide a feel that is about as close as you can get to going outside and riding without requiring a really massive flywheel.


Chip, thanks for the reply! An equivalent bike/rider mass of 24kg is still pretty good...better than the tiny flywheels on some fluid trainers (which I've calculated to be ~5kg), but short of the Revolution and the Velodyne. Let's call it a "mid inertia" trainer :-)

That said, I can see how being able to dynamically "add" brake torque would help to simulate an acceleration inertia, but that's not going to help at steady-state, or when pedal force is slightly reduced (such as within a pedal stroke).

IMHO, the main difference between "low inertia" (typical small flywheel trainers, including the Computrainer) and "high inertia" trainers (such as the LeMond, Velodyne, etc.) is that the pedal feel better mimics what a rider feels out on the road within the pedal stroke and is more specific to the training demands.

Maybe you guys just need to spin that flywheel faster? ;-) After all, you can get the higher inertia by either adding mass (or I) or increasing the rotation rate. Since the KE is proportional to V^2, you'd only have to increase the rotational velocity by 1.4x to basically make it the same as the Revolution. More "bang for the buck", inertially speaking, increasing the rotation rate than increasing the mass.

Looks like a cool product. It appears you've thought about the "portability" aspect as well. I can't wait to get a closer look.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Aug 31, 12 8:40
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [papaya] [ In reply to ]
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papaya wrote:
tgarson wrote:
Now, the second loaded question.... when can I buy one??


Please, don't answer "fall", try to be more precise, if you can...


Agreed, at least a specific month would be appreciated... at the very least for budgeting purposes.

Personally, I have been wanting/waiting to switch to power-based training but haven't been swept away by the current options (when you include price-points). However, this product coupled with the <$1000 price-point discussed above would probably push a lot of people who are sitting on the fence, like me, over the wall.



-Eric
---
"The Fit Shall Inherit the Earth" -Endurance Conspiracy
Last edited by: blackduckracing: Aug 31, 12 8:38
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
Tom A. wrote:

For example, by my figuring, the "equivalent mass" of the LeMond Revolution is a bike+rider mass of ~43kg (http://www.wattagetraining.com/...ic.php?f=2&t=335) This is a function of the rotational inertia of the flywheel rotating at an 8:1 ratio with the rear cassette rotation rate.


It'd be interesting to see a comparison table of equivalent inertial mass of trainers. Or, like for the Revolution, the virtual Crr and CdA.

Hmmm...a "virtual Crr and CdA" might be tough for an variably braked trainer like this...since, by definition, it's whatever you program into it.

Or, are you asking if one rides a pre-programmed loop, what assumptions for Crr and CdA are made for a given entered rider mass?

There are power curves out there for lots of trainers, right? Just fit those curves to the equation of motion of a cyclist and that should be easy to find the virtual Cda and Crr, no?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom, thank you for constantly reminding me what a piss-poor Engineer I am in comparison ;)


I'll settle on the excuse that as a Software Engineer, I'm not required to master (or obey) your so called "laws" of physics.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
Tom, thank you for constantly reminding me what a piss-poor Engineer I am in comparison ;)


I'll settle on the excuse that as a Software Engineer, I'm not required to master (or obey) your so called "laws" of physics.

You're only required to code them up ;-)

Don't ask me to try to do any of that stuff...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Or, are you asking if one rides a pre-programmed loop, what assumptions for Crr and CdA are made for a given entered rider mass?

Exactly. The comparison between a flat loop and a loop with a known hill would be interesting, I think.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [SteveMc] [ In reply to ]
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Campagnolo compatible? How easy to switch between campy and Shimano cassettes?
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [papaya] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Tom,

Right now we have a few too many variables to put a solid date on it. We plan to announce pricing and availability at Interbike in a few weeks. It is a pretty complex piece of gear and we want to make sure we have it perfect.

thanks,

Chip
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [unixd0od] [ In reply to ]
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You can switch hubs just like on a regular wheel.

It can go campy if you have a cassette adapter (so I'm told, I know nothing about campy).

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Volunteer to product test for you!

Not a pro rider by any means, however I'm currently riding an extraneous amount of mileage as I recover from spine surgery and haven't been cleared to run yet.

Can use: 2011 Felt DA or 2010 Felt F4 or 2008 Felt B2 single speed conversion (yes, I like Felt bikes) or 1998 Bontrager TI mtn bike... your choice.

Spent three years immediately after college product testing for various outdoor companies/groups. PM me if I can help!



-Eric
---
"The Fit Shall Inherit the Earth" -Endurance Conspiracy
Last edited by: blackduckracing: Sep 1, 12 8:43
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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I know Wahoo is primarily Apple based, but any plans for Android apps for this? Or will an iPod touch be able to control it?

The trainer road set up looks good (haven't used it yet), but I don't see an option to create my own pre-programmed workouts on it.



Tim Anderson
"It's the nature of the internets that you get some dweeb who knows nothing about (insert topic here) pontificates about (topic), believing that his/her opinion is worth the same as opinions from those who actually knows what's going on." --Echappist
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Trippertim] [ In reply to ]
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It's an open platform, so anyone can write an android app for it.

The problem is android is fragmented and it's guess it's hard to get the BT 4.0 drivers working on multiple devices. I'm sure that will get figured out though.

For TrainerRoad, we are working on a workout creator right now. We should have a beta out in 2-3 weeks.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds good! How about the ipod touch if I ever give in and at least sip the kool-aid?



Tim Anderson
"It's the nature of the internets that you get some dweeb who knows nothing about (insert topic here) pontificates about (topic), believing that his/her opinion is worth the same as opinions from those who actually knows what's going on." --Echappist
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
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Maui5150 wrote:

2) Integration with Google Maps, MapMyRide, GarminConnect, et al. - I don't care so much for fancy graphics, never really liked the "silver man" but want to quickly and easily be able to take a course or race that I have rode and be able to train on it. I think especially when you have somewhat reliable GPS or altimeter data, to be able to select a workout from the past I did on my bike and then be able to train on that same course and get a close proximity to the same feel, that

This
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Trippertim] [ In reply to ]
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iPod touch should work as long as it has Bluetooth smart. Not sure if the current ones have that though. The next ones would though.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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http://cosmocatalano.com/strava/export/
alows you to export anyones ride on strava as gpx, tcx

Are there any plans to allow trainer road to 'replay' rides in real time (eg, gpx, tcx files) as a kind of virtual partner type thing, so you could try and match a previous ride (would be fun to replay some of the pro's rides and see how long you could (not) keep up for)

is there an app for doing this already, could run it alongside trainer road when in free ride mode.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [papaya] [ In reply to ]
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Hey folks - Mike from Wahoo here. My partner, Chip, weighed in on the tech questions. I will try to answer some of the other questions. Eurobike is officially over and my butt is kicked.

First of all, thanks for the great questions and comments. We appreciate it. This project means a lot to us (designed from the ground up) and we are literally working 24/7 to meet people's expectations.

First of all, price and availability will be revealed at Interbike in mid September, along with another cool product. You guys will like it.

Second - a few more thoughts:
1) Noise: we did several tests using an iPhone decibel meter App in a *fairly*controlled environment (trainer in room alone, iphone same distance away, etc.). We tested the KICKR, Kurt Road Machine, Lemond Revolution, and CycleOps Fluid 2. At 10 mph, the results were KICKR 64, Lemond 74, CycleOps 63, Kurt 68. At 20 mph, the results were KICKR 73, Lemond 85, Cyclops 69, Kurt 80. Note, the db scale is logarithmic so 12 decibels is quite noticeable (EDIT: 70 vs. 80 decibels is TWICE AS LOUD... thank you google). Overall, its quiet - surprisingly quiet. People at Eurobike were commenting how quiet the trainer is and it surprised me since I am used to it - our office is tiny and Chip has been in testing for the last two months. At Eurobike, we had three trainers going and the drive trains of the bikes seemed to make more noise than the trainer/
2) Apps: we are launching with TrainerRoad, Kinomap, and our own App. I think everyone knows TrainerRoad. I had the good fortune of spending the prior week with Nate and Reid from TrainerRoad and Laurent from Kinomap and I think you will be happy with some of the ideas for new functionality we came up with. I believe everyone knows TrainerRoad but I don't think people know Kinomap. Kinomap is an iPhone/iPad App that acts as the YouTube of geo-located videos. Basic premise - you ride a course outside with a video camera and a gps device ( eg edge 500, iphone), you upload the package to the Kinomap website, and anyone can then view/ride that course virtually (with or without resistance). Wahoo's own App was a demo of virtual Strava segments, where you can pick any segment and any top 50 leaderboard member from that segment and ride against them virtually - with elevation controlling resistance and comparison of data vs. THAT rider (power, speed, hr, etc). Note - while we worked with Strava to develop this, it was only a demo - so don't get your hopes up ;-). Wahoo's App will have something equally as cool. We expect other Apps to follow suit since our API is open for any App to access the trainer protocol.
3) Basic feature set: iPhone, iPad, Computer controlled resistance; great road feel; and accurate power measurement (not calculated). All in a competitively priced (and quiet) package.

That's all I got tonight. I left Eurobike at 10am and drove 700kms on the autobahn to Berlin for another tradeshow. Feel free to ask any questions and I will try to answer them!

Thanks!

___________
Last edited by: mike@wahoo: Sep 1, 12 11:45
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [unixd0od] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, we will direct you to a campy adapter so you can use campy. But, the hub is a native sram/shimano.

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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Trippertim] [ In reply to ]
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Trippertim wrote:
I know Wahoo is primarily Apple based, but any plans for Android apps for this? Or will an iPod touch be able to control it?

The trainer road set up looks good (haven't used it yet), but I don't see an option to create my own pre-programmed workouts on it.

The KICKR is both ANT+ and Bluetooth Smart. There are several Android phones that have the ANT+ protocol in them. Also, we are working with several Android handset makers to activate their Bluetooth 4.0 protocols on a case by case basis. Since the API will be open, we expect to see several Android Apps that are compatible with it in the next 6-9 months.

Nate was right. Android is extremely fragmented with all of the different handset makers. Until Google says "here is our ANT+ or Bluetooth 4.0 official specs in the Android operating system" we don't have a consistent communications protocol. Personally, I think it sucks for the user experience because there are a ton of great android handsets and tablets but no standard. Hopefully, we will get the most popular Android phones to work with the Wahoo protocols... (fingers crossed).

As for TrainerRoad, I think they are working on a workout creator. Side note - I can't say enough about Nate and Reid after hanging out with them this week. They have some awesome ideas to become THE standard for indoor training. Over the next 12 months, I think you will really see some cool innovations from these guys. They are true entrepreneurs - young guys with families who recently quit their jobs to make TrainerRoad a success by delivering an awesome user experience for triathletes and cyclists. Heck, you should buy a subscription just on their story! Today, the product is really good - I keep telling them to raise their prices ;-).

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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the extra infro on Kinomap, that sounds extremely cool, and a fantastic alternative to ridiculously overpriced RCVs. The virtual Strava segments also sounds like a really cool idea. Hope that one makes it back into an end product.

You guys are basically the answers to my repeated prayers in the trainer market over the last several years. Finally someone who actually understands and embraces current technology rather than completely shuns it. I can't wait to get rid of my CompuTrainer.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks! We deliberately tried to incorporate the best attributes of all the trainers on the market into the KICKR. Lots of good brainstorming and lots of testing. Hopefully, you all will like it as much as we like it.

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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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Those other guys should be very, very afraid! Wahoo is going to kick them to the curb in no time flat if this all pans out like it sounds.

I know a guy who has an indoor trainer center using a bunch of those other units who is very interested in what you guys are doing. It sounds like it should be pretty simple, using your API, to create an application that interfaces to a number of trainers simultaneously and lets people ride and virtually race each other.

Keep going like this and you guys will be very successful!

David
Last edited by: davidhoy: Sep 2, 12 5:26
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [big_vern] [ In reply to ]
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big_vern wrote:
http://cosmocatalano.com/strava/export/
alows you to export anyones ride on strava as gpx, tcx

Are there any plans to allow trainer road to 'replay' rides in real time (eg, gpx, tcx files) as a kind of virtual partner type thing, so you could try and match a previous ride (would be fun to replay some of the pro's rides and see how long you could (not) keep up for)

is there an app for doing this already, could run it alongside trainer road when in free ride mode.

Yes, yes and yes :).

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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Mike can't wait!, I was planning making the commitment to go Computrainer this fall/winter and live with the problems, but the Kickr seems to solve the biggest pain points for me.

I hope you don't meet too many delays, because you now have at least 1 customer holding out getting a Computrainer to get the Kickr.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Hi guys,

kuddos for what sounds like an awsome product. I've read this tread and Rainmaker's review, but not sure if I've missed it - but what kind of resistance is the trainer? I know the Lemond is wind-resistant, which is why it's relatively noisy. But what about the Kickr - is it fluid?

Best regards
Søren
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [AndrewMarvel] [ In reply to ]
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It's got an electric magnetic brake. I think the proper term is electro induction braking, but I'm not sure.

It doesn't feel like a regular mag trainer because of two reasons:

1) they can be smart about when to apply braking and when not to.

2) they have a large fly wheel

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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Most importantly: Will it be available in Europe?
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [eigner] [ In reply to ]
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Yes - it will be available in Europe. Probably at same time as US.

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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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Mike, as far as simulating gradient, I'm sure the resistance goes a long way, but does one also have to use risers on the front wheel (and if so, is there any exception to using them w/ the Kickr)?
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Trippertim] [ In reply to ]
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We have already begun to modify our RaceMyGhost app to fully utilise what this trainer will bring to indoor training. It will mean the rider can set up a very specific training program including intervals and climbs and then race there previous best, worst and average rides.
This trainer is the best innovation cycling has seen for a long time and the open API makes the potential endless.

Euan

RaceMyGhost.com
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [dockt] [ In reply to ]
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The KICKR is designed to have the front wheel on the floor. The rear height can be adjusted to use a 24" wheel up to a 29er. If you want to create your own gradient, in theory you can use any combination of rear wheel adjustments and front wheel risers. That is up to you but not what is intended....

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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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What about Australia/Asia?!

----------------------------------------------------------
2011 Cannondale Slice
Eat. Sleep. Swim. Bike. Run. Win
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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This looks great, Mike.

Just to make sure we are thinking about this right, it has two modes, a slope mode and an erg mode.

The slope mode is almost like a regular trainer, but has some adjustability for the resistance curve. This is why it needs a cassette and the ability to change gears. You choose your own resistance and cadence by how you ride/shift.

The erg mode will match the resistance to a pre-determined wattage. Here there is really no need for the cassette or ability to shift. If you want to spin at a higher cadence for a given power output, just pedal faster, the resistance will decrease accordingly. Could even run it as a single speed and have exactly the same experience.

Correct?


Again, this looks fantastic. If it is as good as it looks, I will be buying one when they are available.

Thanks again
Andy
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder if the folks at RacerMate realize that they're still selling (Betamax) VCRs?

The writing's on the wall: Betamax, VHS, Kodak, Blockbuster, Computrainer.....

king of the road says you move too slow
KING OF THE ROAD SAYS YOU MOVE TOO SLOW
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [ttocsmi] [ In reply to ]
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ttocsmi wrote:
I wonder if the folks at RacerMate realize that they're still selling (Betamax) VCRs?

The writing's on the wall: Betamax, VHS, Kodak, Blockbuster, Computrainer.....

Extremely doubtful that RM will see the writing on the wall quite yet. Their entire marketing approach is to focus on the results of athletes who use CompuTrainers rather than on the product itself. As long as pros and sponsored athletes continue to win races, I think they’ll continue to cling to illusion that all is well and consumers will be swayed by some tertiary pro winning a 70.3 halfway across the world rather than by an objective comparison of products.

Even so, I don’t think they’re going anywhere in the near future, I think they’ll survive for a while by catering to an ever-diminishing base of luddites. Not sure if that will sustain them indefinitely, but definitely will impact their bottom line.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
ttocsmi wrote:
I wonder if the folks at RacerMate realize that they're still selling (Betamax) VCRs?

The writing's on the wall: Betamax, VHS, Kodak, Blockbuster, Computrainer.....


Extremely doubtful that RM will see the writing on the wall quite yet. Their entire marketing approach is to focus on the results of athletes who use CompuTrainers rather than on the product itself. As long as pros and sponsored athletes continue to win races, I think they’ll continue to cling to illusion that all is well and consumers will be swayed by some tertiary pro winning a 70.3 halfway across the world rather than by an objective comparison of products.

Even so, I don’t think they’re going anywhere in the near future, I think they’ll survive for a while by catering to an ever-diminishing base of luddites. Not sure if that will sustain them indefinitely, but definitely will impact their bottom line.

What a joke. Show me where the RM stuff does not work? The SW folks comments are dumb. For a lot of us we just use the power stuff, I do not need any of the fancy tools. I just ride with a small subset of training
intervals. Boring is boring. I just put the work in and the equipment just works. Now, when using a trainer a lot, the Velotron was worth every penny I had to pay for it. The thing just works.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:

What a joke. Show me where the RM stuff does not work? The SW folks comments are dumb. For a lot of us we just use the power stuff, I do not need any of the fancy tools. I just ride with a small subset of training
intervals. Boring is boring. I just put the work in and the equipment just works. Now, when using a trainer a lot, the Velotron was worth every penny I had to pay for it. The thing just works.

It’s not an issue of something working or not working, everything ‘works’. It’s an issue of people having different opinions of how they want their products to work and the features that are important to them.

Clearly, you represent a segment of the market who is satisfied with the current offerings. There are definitely others in your camp, but you don’t represent everyone. You speak from the perspective of your specific needs and wants in relation to your specific product, the Velotron.

What I don’t quite understand however is the tone you are taking in response to this. No one is calling you dumb for owning a RM product, many of us do. However, on the contrary, you are calling others dumb for not sharing your exact sentiments for what you want in a trainer?

I don’t quite understand how it is a personal offense to you that others might want to buy a trainer that works differently than your own, or use it differently than you would use it?
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


What a joke. Show me where the RM stuff does not work? The SW folks comments are dumb. For a lot of us we just use the power stuff, I do not need any of the fancy tools. I just ride with a small subset of training
intervals. Boring is boring. I just put the work in and the equipment just works. Now, when using a trainer a lot, the Velotron was worth every penny I had to pay for it. The thing just works.


It’s not an issue of something working or not working, everything ‘works’. It’s an issue of people having different opinions of how they want their products to work and the features that are important to them.

Clearly, you represent a segment of the market who is satisfied with the current offerings. There are definitely others in your camp, but you don’t represent everyone. You speak from the perspective of your specific needs and wants in relation to your specific product, the Velotron.

What I don’t quite understand however is the tone you are taking in response to this. No one is calling you dumb for owning a RM product, many of us do. However, on the contrary, you are calling others dumb for not sharing your exact sentiments for what you want in a trainer?

I don’t quite understand how it is a personal offense to you that others might want to buy a trainer that works differently than your own, or use it differently than you would use it?

I am responding to the posts that say the RM products are a joke. I agree let the market decide. My opinion is their products are great. Perfect nope. Current bleeding edge technology? Nope.
Works for some of us? Yep.

It just gets old the folks who just attack it seems everything. If you do not like RM products, great, buy something else.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough. For the record, I don’t think RM’s products are without merit. They still are very effective training tools, and it’s pretty safe to say they can do everything you really need to do on a trainer.

By that same argument, I could say though that the P2K is everything you really need in a triathlon bike. The difference between the two however is that the last 10 years of bike development has yielded plenty of examples of products that do the same basic thing as the P2K, but do it lighter, faster, stiffer, etc. Independently, both still are great products, but it is only through comparison to its competition that one can still be sold as a flagship product and the other relegated to the past.

And it is that competition, or more aptly, the lack thereof, in the ergo trainer market that has brought us to present.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
Fair enough. For the record, I don’t think RM’s products are without merit. They still are very effective training tools, and it’s pretty safe to say they can do everything you really need to do on a trainer.

By that same argument, I could say though that the P2K is everything you really need in a triathlon bike. The difference between the two however is that the last 10 years of bike development has yielded plenty of examples of products that do the same basic thing as the P2K, but do it lighter, faster, stiffer, etc. Independently, both still are great products, but it is only through comparison to its competition that one can still be sold as a flagship product and the other relegated to the past.

And it is that competition, or more aptly, the lack thereof, in the ergo trainer market that has brought us to present.

I agree. I cannot tell you how many years I have heard of a new product coming out that was going to put RM out of business. It may happen some day, but in the mean time, my trainer kicks my butt.
Even though bikes cost more money, and look cooler, etc., has it really made folks faster? If this was true, the Pro's would be going under 8 hours at IMH. Look at the bikes Dave Scott and Mark Allen
rode compared to today's stuff. They would still kick most pro's butts riding those bikes against todays bikes. It is all about the engine.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
tgarson wrote:
Fair enough. For the record, I don’t think RM’s products are without merit. They still are very effective training tools, and it’s pretty safe to say they can do everything you really need to do on a trainer.

By that same argument, I could say though that the P2K is everything you really need in a triathlon bike. The difference between the two however is that the last 10 years of bike development has yielded plenty of examples of products that do the same basic thing as the P2K, but do it lighter, faster, stiffer, etc. Independently, both still are great products, but it is only through comparison to its competition that one can still be sold as a flagship product and the other relegated to the past.

And it is that competition, or more aptly, the lack thereof, in the ergo trainer market that has brought us to present.


I agree. I cannot tell you how many years I have heard of a new product coming out that was going to put RM out of business. It may happen some day, but in the mean time, my trainer kicks my butt.
Even though bikes cost more money, and look cooler, etc., has it really made folks faster? If this was true, the Pro's would be going under 8 hours at IMH. Look at the bikes Dave Scott and Mark Allen
rode compared to today's stuff. They would still kick most pro's butts riding those bikes ( and drafting the media van) against todays bikes. It is all about the engine.

FIFY.

Oh, and apparently you missed the part about how, just last year, due to a HUGE improvement in his bike split (which coincidentally occurred once he got an actual, FAST bike, and also finally used an aero helmet), Crowie set a new course record.

We don't want little things like facts to get in the way of your opinions.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [AndyPeterson] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Andy,

There are four modes available to developers. The names may change and generally they will remain under the covers to be utilized by Apps.

Standalone: If you plug it in without a head unit, it will use a pre-loaded power curve that simulates an outdoor ride. Power is exponential with velocity. This mode can be adjusted with a head unit by setting the level, 1-9. Default is level 1.
Manual Brake Mode: You can set the brake power from 0 to 100%, 0 represents off and 16384 full on.
Erg Mode: Set the power to a known wattage. This can be changed as often as you like from the App for pre-programmed workouts.
Sim Mode: This mode allows you to set the coefficient of rolling resistance, coefficient of Wind resistance(including frontal area and air density), and grade. This allows the developer flexibility to simulate slopes, drafting, different road surfaces, getting in and out of aero position, etc.

thanks,

Chip@Wahoo
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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Was pricing info released at Eurobike? I have had a look around but can't find anything.

Hopefully you will make this available in Europe before we are all forced indoors to do our training.




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Searching for the bliss of ultimate exertion.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Well, it's not exactly what he is saying in his book...
in 2010, he was just not focus, that's it. And just came back and train harder. it's not only about his material!
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [callidus] [ In reply to ]
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callidus wrote:
Was pricing info released at Eurobike? I have had a look around but can't find anything.

Hopefully you will make this available in Europe before we are all forced indoors to do our training.

Nope, it's in this thread in a few spots that pricing and availability will be announced at Interbike.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks - I must have read Eurobike instead of Interbike....




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Searching for the bliss of ultimate exertion.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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Interbike is here....when can we expect pricing?
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [ffmedic84] [ In reply to ]
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available on January 1 at $999 according to dcrainmaker.com.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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denali2001 wrote:
available on January 1 at $999 according to dcrainmaker.com.

<CLUNK>

That was the sound of CT's sales hitting the floor, as of 1/2/2013.




float , hammer , and jog

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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Well, it'll probably be sooner since you figure they'll have preorders for the holiday season! amazing how little CT has done to innovate their product.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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...and now I know when to get rid of my CT by.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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Ugh, hoping for 6-700

"Base training is bull shit" - desertdude
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [thirstygreek] [ In reply to ]
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I was about to drop money on a CT so this is a welcome $$ savings for what is looking to be a way better product. Wish it was out a little bit early though. What am I suppose to open on Christmas morning now?
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [ffmedic84] [ In reply to ]
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The new Zipp CC disc?
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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I dunno if I missed it...

But I'm after a trainer that simulates so-and-so course (with nice video to go along with it), and I know the Kickr has resistance that changes (i.e., like going uphill, or maybe even headwinds), but what about going downhill or tailwinds? Do you still have to keep pedaling?
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Alfalfameister] [ In reply to ]
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"Do you still have to keep pedaling? "


(this is surely to come across wrong) do you mean "motorized"? you can coast, but it will slow down at what ever rate the fly wheel lets it. so the 'downhill' would be rather short in that instance.

I am like a kid in a candy shop that NEEDS this thing now! i was/am planning on getting one, but now i'm stuck with the next 3 months of indoor* starting without it. ugh..


*time constraints

Tim


Tim
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Alfalfameister] [ In reply to ]
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Alfalfameister wrote:
I dunno if I missed it...


But I'm after a trainer that simulates so-and-so course (with nice video to go along with it), and I know the Kickr has resistance that changes (i.e., like going uphill, or maybe even headwinds), but what about going downhill or tailwinds? Do you still have to keep pedaling?


The key to simulating a realistic "road feel" in an indoor trainer all comes down to the design and size of the flywheel and it's moment of inertia-- the resistance to change in rotation. In order to be able to simulate that coasting feeling for downhills or flats, we want a high moment of inertia so that the flywheel continues to spin at roughly the same velocity as when we stopped pedaling. So for super road feel, we just want huge flywheels right? Well, not quite, the same thing works in reverse. If we have a huge flywheel, the high moment of inertia also wants to preserve the state of the flywheel when it's not moving or moving slow, so basically acceleration is sluggish and it's hard to get up to speed.

The flywheel on the KICKR appears (from previous discussions in this thread) to be moderately sized. Sounds like it will be way better than the tiny flywheel on say the CompuTrainer or many other trainers, but not as big as say the Velotron (which is basically a flywheel with pedals) or even the similarly designed (similar to KICKR) LeMond Revolution.


Of those two competitors I just mentioned, The Velotron is functional, but antiquated in electronic and software design, and very expensive, and the LeMond does not control resistance.


So to answer your question, no, it will not be exactly like being outside, but it most likely will be better than any of it's actual competition.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
...and now I know when to get rid of my CT by.

X2...

And we now the price too 999 + shipping and feed lol

The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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On the Wahoo site they say the Kickr is "iPhone powered". Does this mean you have to feed it iPhones to keep it working?
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [steelerguy] [ In reply to ]
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It should last about a week on a 4s, that's hat we were feeding it at interbike. I bet it could go a month on an iPhone 5. Maybe just a couple hours on the original iPhone.... ;-)

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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