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Susan Williams.???????????
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Her decision to race is quite surprising to me. Nationals is all about the everyday athlete, coming together to compare their abilities. It's not a platform to get your pro card ( if that is what she was doing). I don't know her thought process in showing up and easily hammering the field. It's not much different than my going out and crushing the neighborhood kids with my towering wiffle ball home runs. In my mind, Catherine Sterling is the true age group national champion. There....I said it.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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So Susan is ~42 years old, and doesn't have a pro card?

and so it isn't cool for her to compete at age group nationals?

where would you like her to compete? please give us acceptable venues for the retired pro.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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Are the kids playing wiffleball your age?

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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And how about that Janet Evans setting masters records. Bitch.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [sdmike] [ In reply to ]
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there is this bizarre attitude with women's endurance sport, where you are not welcome if you are actually good at it.

it is total weak sauce.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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Dude, you should totally get this carbon fiber wiffle ball bat:

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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For what it's worth, I raced in Susan Williams's wave yesterday (if you can call it "in," given how far behind her I was!), and I'm totally psyched she was there. Someone else posted about a bunch of former pros who still race AG competition, and I agree that it's not only kosher, it's cool. My coach is a former pro who races AG (and would have been at Nationals had she not been injured), and I know that her life is in fact just like the lives of other AG athletes--she works, has a family and also trains for triathlons. I suspect the fact that former pros often dominate the AG competition has more to do with the genetic gifts and the hard work that got them to pro status in the first place, plus the racing experience they have, then it does with any kind of magical advantage from being a former pro. And looking at ALL the AG results, the combination of natural ability/hard work/experience is what any of us have going for us.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [sdmike] [ In reply to ]
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You're kinda making the OP point. JE is aiming for the OG, not AG nationals. I don't have any issues with ex Pros racing with amateurs, but at least keep on topic.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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Did I really have to use pink.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Men bitch about it, maybe even more. I thin part of it come from if you start nin tri at a young age and do well as an AGer from ages 20-35 or so,, you suddenly find your sefl getting beat by more people. Its not that those guys were around, its just that they were racing pro in tri or in one of the single sports. I typically would place higher in 20-25 than I would in 45-50, but its just that the best 20-25 yo are otherwise occupied.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [MasskT] [ In reply to ]
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Agree. I would have been totally pscyhed had I been there this year.

Edit: As for the question of why some people have an issue with ex-pros racing AG, I'm not entirely sure what that stems from. My best guess is that some folks might lump all pro's into a category of people that have extraordinary advantages that the rest of us do not have, and it's all good when they are in a different category, but not so good when those with this special designation jump into one's own category. There you go. Amateur psychology at it's best.

__________________________
http://www.aliciaparr.com/blog
http://www.performentor.com

Yes, I too am on Facebook. And LinkedIn. And Twitter. Which begs the question - do I exist in the physical world? Do I?
Last edited by: aliciap: Aug 21, 11 10:36
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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So, are former pro's never allowed to compete in any sports again? You wouldn't allow Michael Jordan on your softball team?

____________________________________________________
"I like you. I'll gladly sit down and have dinner with you after the race. But when the gun goes off, I pretty much hate you, and I want to stomp your guts out. That's racing." -Rappstar

http://train4autism.org/
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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I love when retired(or soon to be) pro's race in my age group (she's a little younger than me). Being part of the race where they are hammering is a GOOD thing.
There is always someone faster than you. Always. If they meet the criteria to race (non pro status)- c'mon.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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So in short you're saying you got chicked.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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If I knew who Susan Williams was I might actually care......


---------------
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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Nationals is all about the everyday athlete, coming together to compare their abilities.

. . . and Ironman founder John Collins, when he sold the rights, to the Ironman said that, "there should always be space on the starting line at IMH for everyday athletes", - whatever the heck an everyday athlete is? FWIW - It's that one line from John Collins, that keeps the lottery alive at IMH! How else to explain it?



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Aug 21, 11 11:20
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Ultra-tri-guy] [ In reply to ]
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Ultra-tri-guy wrote:
If I knew who Susan Williams was I might actually care......


---------------

From Wikipedia:

She was the first U.S. triathlete to win an Olympic medal by taking the bronze in 2004 in Athens.

She earned a B.S. in aerospace engineering from the University of Alabama in 1992. She earned a M.S. in Aerospace Engineering Sciences from University of Colorado at Boulder in 1994. She was working toward becoming an astronaut when her success at triathlon convinced her to give it a try.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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What would be the correct time off after a Po career before someone is allowed to compete again? And what should they do in that time? Bake cookies?
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Murphy'sLaw wrote:
Ultra-tri-guy wrote:
If I knew who Susan Williams was I might actually care......


---------------


From Wikipedia:

She was the first U.S. triathlete to win an Olympic medal by taking the bronze in 2004 in Athens.

She earned a B.S. in aerospace engineering from the University of Alabama in 1992. She earned a M.S. in Aerospace Engineering Sciences from University of Colorado at Boulder in 1994. She was working toward becoming an astronaut when her success at triathlon convinced her to give it a try.
-------------------

I like smart chicks

....
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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It's not a platform to get your pro card


um yes, it definitely is.



Dan Meehan
Coach / Athlete
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [aliciap] [ In reply to ]
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Former pros racing age group are disliked because it exposes just how slow 98% of us really are. We play this grand charade of splitting up "age groups", pretending that there's a significant difference in potential between 25 and 44 year-olds. Really, we're just trying to make each category small enough so that more people will get awards. It's like kids' soccer where they don't keep score.

Without age groups, a 2:10 Olympic-distance finish might not even get you top 10. But in a small enough field, men can eek out an a/g podium spot with a 2:30. It makes us feel good about ourselves. Go to a local Nebraska sprint distance race and a usual middle-of-packer might even win an age group. Heroic!!

But when someone in my age group beats me by 45 minutes...illusion shattered.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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You should see who won the Kelowna Apple today and was the only person to go under 2 hours well this is until the pro's race in about an hour and a half.

What a loser for racing in the earlier waves and winning the whole event.

People in general worry too much about what everyone else is doing. I race for myself and train for myself and could care less who is racing in my wave or catagory.
Last edited by: BMANX: Aug 21, 11 12:20
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [BMANX] [ In reply to ]
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Was it Dr Tommy?..

..
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Ultra-tri-guy] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe!
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Former pros racing age group are disliked because it exposes just how slow 98% of us really are. We play this grand charade of splitting up "age groups", pretending that there's a significant difference in potential between 25 and 44 year-olds. Really, we're just trying to make each category small enough so that more people will get awards. It's like kids' soccer where they don't keep score.

Good point.

Years ago in running, before rec-running was all the big participatory thing that it is now( not that, that is a bad thing in any way - it's all good), there were only several categories:

Junior 19 and under
Senior 20 - 39
Master - 40+( with occasional gradations as you got older such as grand-master at 50+)







Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
What would be the correct time off after a Po career before someone is allowed to compete again? And what should they do in that time? Bake cookies?

I think the point being made is that there are plenty of other races she could have done. I am not sure what "retired" pro means, if you are still racing and doing it at what is basically a professional level. I agree that just because you were once a pro does not mean you should never be able to race AG. However, AG nationals is one event where I think some restraint might be very sporting.

Sure she is free to race as an AGer. Different people will have different opinions on how sporting it is for a formed top level pro to compete in and win an AG national championship. No one is disputing that she is free to enter the event. I would also like to make clear that I am not saying it is bad sportmanship for former pros to race AG nationals, just saying you are not going to get the Byrd trophy in my book for doing so.

Here is one perspective. She is a "retired" pro, e.g., claims not to be making a living doing this. For some of the younger ladies just striking out, the notoriety of being the AG national champion might be helpful in attracting sponsors for a budding pro career. Somebody might say it would be extremely classy to leave at least one race to those who are undisputed amateurs right now and do some other race. For example, being the AG winner at St. Anthony's is a nice feather in your cap, but you were not the winner. AG nationals is the one race, where the AG winner is the winner. It is the biggest spotlight for amateurs, and some purity would be nice. For someone who has won an Olympic medal, I can't see how AG national champion would be anywhere near the greatest competitive moment of your life. For any of the other competitors, I am sure it would have been.

I am more impressed with former pros who chose other races to continue competing as amateurs.

*********************
"When I first had the opportunity to compete in triathlon, it was the chicks and their skimpy race clothing that drew me in. Everyone was so welcoming and the lifestyle so obviously narcissistic. I fed off of that vain energy. To me it is what the sport is all about."
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [BMANX] [ In reply to ]
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I think it's awesome that Susan Williams raced USAT Nationals yesterday. Susan and I swam at the University of Alabama years ago. She's one tough cookie! Susan actually told me at last years Nationals race in Tuscaloosa that she was going to race in VT. She really wanted to qualify for Worlds so that she and her husband could go to New Zealand. I am happy that she's going to be able to do that.

I think it's amazing that she has 3 kids (one that is only 11 months old) and she can still lay down some hurt at 42 years old. For those that have an issue with her racing please give us a solution to where and when ex-professionals, like Susan, can race.

I toe the line quite frequently against former professionals all the time. Gordon Byrn and Curt Chesney are two that easily come to mind. Both of these guys are awesome individuals and makes me want to "pick up my game" to try and get faster. They make me faster! The only way I am ever going to beat them is to outwork them. This may or may not happen. So far it hasn't. That's not going to stop me from trying.

So, if you don't want to get beat by ex-professionals then do what's necessary to make sure that doesn't happen. I, for one, like the fact that they are racing with us!

Bruce Gennari
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Can't believe you guys are the 'defenders of the free world'....and yet you're bitching about this.

Stoked Susan Williams will be coming to NZ.

:)
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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It's an honor to be beat by a former Olympian or ex-pro, in fact it's bragging rights to say that the only person who beat you was of that caliber! I'm female and in the next age group up from Susan - didn't race national this year but I have plenty of those folks in the Boulder area to compete with and there is no shame when they win. I find it very inspiring and motivating that these folks continue to compete as they age up regardless of the race.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
Former pros racing age group are disliked because it exposes just how slow 98% of us really are. We play this grand charade of splitting up "age groups", pretending that there's a significant difference in potential between 25 and 44 year-olds. Really, we're just trying to make each category small enough so that more people will get awards. It's like kids' soccer where they don't keep score.

Good point.

Years ago in running, before rec-running was all the big participatory thing that it is now( not that, that is a bad thing in any way - it's all good), there were only several categories:

Junior 19 and under
Senior 20 - 39
Master - 40+( with occasional gradations as you got older such as grand-master at 50+)


Off-topic, but we should definitely go back to this. More competition and faster awards ceremonies! I get so tired of waiting through 15+ age groups, open, masters, masters open, athena, clydesdale, .... everyone has to be a winner.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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You're point might be a good point if she was an elite. She's an AG athlete now. she no longer races elite. AG nationals is her new Olympics. If someone is upset they got beat by a former Olympics medalist who is no longer elite, they should stop complaining and go do something about getting their ass Handed to them.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Here is one perspective. She is a "retired" pro, e.g., claims not to be making a living doing this. For some of the younger ladies just striking out, the notoriety of being the AG national champion might be helpful in attracting sponsors for a budding pro career. Somebody might say it would be extremely classy to leave at least one race to those who are undisputed amateurs right now and do some other race.

Your point would be a good one if there were ever some serious money in this sport other than for a handful of the very best athletes at the very top of the sport. After that the money in this sport drops of precipitously, and the line between Pro and Amateur get's rather blurred. Believe me, by winning, she's not blocking out anyone from some huge sponsorship deal or bonus package!

We have had this discussion on here many times. In the sport of triathlon the reality is that there really is only maybe 20 - 30 athletes in the whole world, in the whole sport who are living and working it as a true professionals - deriving almost their entire incomes from winnings and sponsorship. With all due respect, after that, there is a large group of triathletes who in reality are just amazing and very good triathletes who get handed a bit of cash every now and then( not enough to live off of) and get free stuff from some Mfgs. (and you can't live off of that either)







Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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If someone is winning AG nationals by a large margin perhaps they should be racing elite, no matter what their past accomplishments were. I'm surprised she would want to compete in the AG category when it really doesn't seem like much of a competition.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [maija] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
If someone is winning AG nationals by a large margin perhaps they should be racing elite

Conversely perhaps the other females should train more/better and or figure out how to get faster.

Maybe she doesn't want to put in the training time it takes to race elite. Maybe the other AG women in the US aren't really that fast.

I understand hating to get beat. There is a former elite here in AZ. When he's in shape 85% of the time he crushes the rest of us. He still pops in the occasional top 10 overall, including elites as an AGer in large national level races. Maybe he should go back and get his elite card? Or maybe the rest of us around here should start a bitch and whine club about it.

The fact is we try to get faster. If someone is faster that day, no matter who they are, so be it. People bitching and moaning about how they got smoked isn't going to help their situation.

I love triathlon, where it's ok to get beat, but when it's an ex pro it's suddenly not. Most top Agers in the US are in fact minnows in a very, very big pond with very, very, very big fish.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Aug 21, 11 15:43
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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Off-topic, but we should definitely go back to this. More competition and faster awards ceremonies! I get so tired of waiting through 15+ age groups, open, masters, masters open, athena, clydesdale, .... everyone has to be a winner.

I usually get a few, "That would be great" comments when I post this up. The reality is that we have gone way too far down the "Everyone's a Winner" path to turn back now. There would be wide-spread outrage if the sport(s) ever did this now.

We had a guy freak-out about a change in the format of the draw-prizes being handed out a race here in Ontario earlier. It was so outrageous and over-the-top, that we thought the guy was joking at first, but he was very serious about it.





Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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Pro licenses expire 12/31 every year and must be renewed after having qualified by finishing within 10% of the winner's time at a race offering a certain amount of prize money. At her level of ability and results, and per USAT rules she could have theoretically continued to hold a pro license without even racing since the Summer Olympics until the end of 2007. I'm trying to find other race results for her since 2004 but her name is pretty common and Athlinks is balking at me. Assuming the 2004 Olympics was her last race, then the worst case scenario (being defined by her staying "retired" for the least amount of time) she would have been an amateur on paper for 3 1/2 years, but perhaps even began getting out of shape before that.

3 1/2 or 4 years is a long time, but there are some things that you can never take away from someone who has competed at such a high level, and will continue to make them great for all of perpetuity:
--Drive and determination. The kind of extreme motivation and commitment that comes from within that the average triathlete can't even begin to understand.
--Superior technique. Swim and run fitness may go, but having spent so much time practicing certain motions it is (sorry for the cliche:) like riding a bike.
--Knowledge of how their body functions. Most amateurs just don't train effectively. I believe it was either SQW or Alistair Brownlee that said this, but (paraphrasing:) "It's not about who trains the longest, or the hardest, just who trains the best." Once you get to the pointy end of the ability continuum sometimes too much hard training can dull your edge. Trying to push 3 or 4 consecutive sessions to your limit may not be as effective as pushing 1 or 2 past your limit and recovering in between. As a former Olympian, Susan undoubtedly understands what works for her and what doesn't.


I'm good, but I'm not Olympic caliber, so while I can relate in some ways, I'm sure there are countless other inherent "advantages" she has that I'm not aware of because I'm simply not that good. That said, does that mean she shouldn't be racing? NO. These "advantages" aren't unfair. They're out there for anyone to gain for themselves given the right combination of devotion, genetics, and coaching/training.

People are too preoccupied with "winning" age group awards, but then again, if a large chunk of the racing population went away from the race feeling like a loser then triathlon probably wouldn't be very popular. By increasing the number of "winners" RD's can brighten some people's days when they would otherwise simply look silly when compared with a great athlete like Rudy Kahsar or Susan Williams. Rudy and Susan WON a fair race, and everyone else "won" age group awards. That said, Brian Duffy has been competing in the AG ranks for years when in fact he is a pro caliber athlete. I'm not familiar with Susan's recent results, but Brian has won the elite amateur division on plenty of occasions with a time that would place him among the top 10-15 pros. IMO what he's doing should be more frustrating than what Susan Williams is doing.

I agree with the argument that AG Nats should be a pure AG race, so I propose the following distinction: if you qualify for your professional license (regardless of whether or not you choose to file for it--I know a substantial number of people fall into this category) then you are ineligible for AG nats.

__________________________

I tweet!

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Murphy'sLaw wrote:
Ultra-tri-guy wrote:
If I knew who Susan Williams was I might actually care......


---------------


From Wikipedia:

She was the first U.S. triathlete to win an Olympic medal by taking the bronze in 2004 in Athens.

She earned a B.S. in aerospace engineering from the University of Alabama in 1992. She earned a M.S. in Aerospace Engineering Sciences from University of Colorado at Boulder in 1994. She was working toward becoming an astronaut when her success at triathlon convinced her to give it a try.



And Hot, too.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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I honestly don't understand why any top level pro would want to come back and race as an AG'er. Isn't it time to move on and find something else in life instead?
Last edited by: cerveloguy: Aug 21, 11 16:14
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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cerveloguy wrote:
I honestly don't understand why any top level pro would want to come back and race as an AG'er. Isn't it time to move on and find something else in life instead?

You forgot to add - IMO
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
some whiney loser is going to whine at any race a stud enters.

so a stud might as well enter where ever she wants.

No it's true. We are all going to pummel you at Savageman and you are aren't whining about it.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
You're point might be a good point if she was an elite. She's an AG athlete now. she no longer races elite. AG nationals is her new Olympics. If someone is upset they got beat by a former Olympics medalist who is no longer elite, they should stop complaining and go do something about getting their ass Handed to them.

I didn't see anyone who was defeated by her complaining about anything.
As an observer, I happen to find it pretty uninteresting that former Olympic medalists are now winning amateur triathlon national titles. Someone from AGs nationals today may be in the Olympics in the future and it is not going to be Williams.
I am sorry if you feel anyone who disagrees with your opinion is complaining and whining about something.
I think it would be a lot more interesting to see young up and comers winning the AG national title. You would prefer to see former elites win them instead, so what?

I am sure it will be motivating to everyone that finished behind Susan Williams to be told they got their asses handed to them.

*********************
"When I first had the opportunity to compete in triathlon, it was the chicks and their skimpy race clothing that drew me in. Everyone was so welcoming and the lifestyle so obviously narcissistic. I fed off of that vain energy. To me it is what the sport is all about."
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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Glad to see her competing
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Salmon Steve] [ In reply to ]
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Salmon Steve wrote:
cerveloguy wrote:
I honestly don't understand why any top level pro would want to come back and race as an AG'er. Isn't it time to move on and find something else in life instead?

You forgot to add - IMO

IMO is redundant when anyone posts anything. The only thing worse is IMHO which is just utter nonsense.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Chris G] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the tip.....
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Salmon Steve] [ In reply to ]
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As for the substance of the thread ... If she does not have a pro card she can't race as a pro/elite/whatever they call it so really has no choice but to race AG, right? If she wanted to race pro in the future she would have to race AG in order to qualify for it, right? Assuming I am not totally confused about how you earn the right to race pro/elite then every person who is racing pro/elite earned the right to do so by racing AG and any pro who took a few years off for whatever reason would have to earn the right to do so again by racing AG. Either you have to make the person pro/elite for life when they qualify, which seems stupid, or let them race AG.

I do however think that age groups make sense in a sport like tri which is dominated (in numbers anyhow) By people who have come into the sport later in life. Besides it allows old fat guys like me to win stuff occasionally and what could be wrong with that?
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
Pro licenses expire 12/31 every year and must be renewed after having qualified by finishing within 10% of the winner's time at a race offering a certain amount of prize money. At her level of ability and results, and per USAT rules she could have theoretically continued to hold a pro license without even racing since the Summer Olympics until the end of 2007.

This is NOT accurate at all. She HAS to race a certain course which is identical to the pro's and finish within 10% of the winner's time, with a certain required prize purse. No race, then after 2 years her license would expire. I speak from experience on this.

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These "advantages" aren't unfair. They're out there for anyone to gain for themselves given the right combination of devotion, genetics, and coaching/training.

So if she has no unfair advantage, what is the issue? What's next, if you have a coach and/or know how to train without being stupid or getting injured, then you shouldn't be eligible for any races, except elite? Does anybody on this board understand the f-ing difference of competitiveness and commitment requirements that the elite level has over age-group? Susan just smoked the field, and if you put her in a WCS race next weekend, she would get smoked, and she knows that, it's why she retired in the first place! She understands the difference, that's why she said there was no pressure at this event.

What about former collegiate swimmers and their great swim splits that people can't make up the difference for in a sprint? Is that unfair? What about the former collegiate runner who can run down everyone? What about Lukas Verzbikas? Isn't it unfair that he can run 8:29 for 2 miles, and 14:0X for 5K, compared to the other juniors at junior nationals?

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I agree with the argument that AG Nats should be a pure AG race, so I propose the following distinction: if you qualify for your professional license (regardless of whether or not you choose to file for it--I know a substantial number of people fall into this category) then you are ineligible for AG nats.



So, if you're actually deserving of competing for an age-group national title, you shouldn't be allowed to? If you're just barely good enough to be considered elite, then you should have to go get your ass kicked in the elite ranks? You do realize that this would continue to lower the bar further and further, and eventually, we'd all be elites. Maybe then the bitching would stop.

"Excuse me, you're disqualified for being good."

Jim Vance
http://TodaysPlan.com.au (Disclosure: I am contracted with Today's Plan)
http://www.CoachVance.com/
Twitter @jimvance
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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From Wikipedia:

She was the first U.S. triathlete to win an Olympic medal by taking the bronze in 2004 in Athens.

She earned a B.S. in aerospace engineering from the University of Alabama in 1992. She earned a M.S. in Aerospace Engineering Sciences from University of Colorado at Boulder in 1994. She was working toward becoming an astronaut when her success at triathlon convinced her to give it a try.


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Wow, all of a sudden I feel completely inadequate...and lazy!

Pretty impressive resume to say the least.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
I'm trying to find other race results for her since 2004 but her name is pretty common and Athlinks is balking at me. Assuming the 2004 Olympics was her last race, then the worst case scenario (being defined by her staying "retired" for the least amount of time) she would have been an amateur on paper for 3 1/2 years, but perhaps even began getting out of shape before that.

She won SavageMan in 2008 and 2009 and remains the overall course and bike leg record holder.

And, @jackmott and @tri_yoda, she will pummel you both next month at SavageMan.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [JimVance] [ In reply to ]
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This is NOT accurate at all. She HAS to race a certain course which is identical to the pro's and finish within 10% of the winner's time, with a certain required prize purse.
You misunderstood what I was saying. If you're in the category of requalifying, then you are currently competing as a pro and thus stipulating this is redundant (i.e. as a pro she is obviously racing on the same course as the pros), therefore I didn't include it.

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No race, then after 2 years her license would expire. I speak from experience on this.
We were both wrong on this. You do have 3 years, but you have to finish within 8%, not 10%. It's been a while since I read the document...(http://assets.teamusa.org/...ension_Form_2011.pdf)

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So if she has no unfair advantage, what is the issue? What's next, if you have a coach and/or know how to train without being stupid or getting injured, then you shouldn't be eligible for any races, except elite? Does anybody on this board understand the f-ing difference of competitiveness and commitment requirements that the elite level has over age-group? Susan just smoked the field, and if you put her in a WCS race next weekend, she would get smoked, and she knows that, it's why she retired in the first place! She understands the difference, that's why she said there was no pressure at this event.

I don't think there is an issue, but I'm guessing this is more directed at others, and not me. I agree with you here...
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So, if you're actually deserving of competing for an age-group national title, you shouldn't be allowed to? If you're just barely good enough to be considered elite, then you should have to go get your ass kicked in the elite ranks? You do realize that this would continue to lower the bar further and further, and eventually, we'd all be elites. Maybe then the bitching would stop.


Fundamentally, I think that athletes that are good enough to be pros shouldn't be competing at AG Nats. I don't feel too strongly about this, but it's just a thought on how to increase fairness a bit. Here's why: dudes like Duffy can get away with sandbagging for years by racing at the AG level when they should be racing at the pro level. I think there need to be additional rules in place to prevent certain people from competing as age groupers indefinitely. I don't personally have a problem with it, but there are a lot of people that do, and the stink that has arisen as a result of Susan's win is proof that it at least matters to some people. Why not move up to the pro ranks as soon as you're able? What's the worry about getting your ass kicked as an elite? It's like you're arguing that it only matters how badly you get beaten if you're racing with the pros. If you do a race that has a pro and amateur field, anyone (pro card or not) going a 2:00 when the winner goes a 1:50 still loses by 10 minutes. I took the opposite route from Brian. Instead of waiting, collecting ridiculous quantities of accolades for my accomplishments as an age grouper, I got my pro license as soon as I possibly could, and I've been getting my ass kicked ever since. I understand Brian's rationale for not moving up now (wants to race Kona, and qualified as an amateur), but several years ago when he raped every Olympic distance race there was he probably should have moved up. The bar may be lowered a bit, but technically Rudy and Brian have both been qualified for their pro licenses for forever now, so the next 3 guys could have qualified had Kahsar and Duffy decided to take a pass on AG Nats...


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"Excuse me, you're disqualified for being good."
No. You'd be disqualified because while you're not violating the letter of the rules of amateurism, you're violating the spirit. The level of devotion it takes to become successful enough to reach the point where you can qualify to be a professional is the same level of devotion it takes to be a professional, the only difference is that the latter has opted to fill out the paperwork while the former has not. Can you see my point here?



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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [kny] [ In reply to ]
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Touche...so she would be another (edit:) **example** of someone who is sandbagging. I do find that annoying...

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Last edited by: ZackC.: Aug 21, 11 18:06
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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She hasn't raced since SavageMan 2009. She had another child in the meantime and is 42 years old. This makes her a sandbagger, because she races as what she is right now, an age grouper? Maybe triathlon needs another category: former pros who are getting a little long in the tooth, don't race enough to keep a pro card, but can still kick everyone's ass their age. You can lump in Steve Larson (RIP), Dave Scott, Ned Overend, ...

Get over it.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [kny] [ In reply to ]
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I guess didn't really think before posting. 2009 keeps getting further and further (farther and farther?) in the past and I now that I think about it that is quite some time. It seems though that she has pretty consistently been racing well enough to keep her pro license...pregnancies, injuries,etc, are one reason they have the 3 year rule. It seems a lot more like she has chosen not to keep her license instead of being unable. Honestly, I don't know who wouldn't want to keep the license though...racing as a pro you get a bit of special treatment, and is kinda fun.

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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I think the problem is many on this board have no idea what a true "elite" or "pro" is. Just because you win all your local races, and maybe even contend for a podium spot at AG Nationals, doesn't mean you're elite.

Jim Vance
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Uh.....it's triathlon....who's losing money because a former pro gets an AG medal? That's utterly laughable.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Tone Deaf] [ In reply to ]
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Don't think money has anything to do with this really. It's about what some would call "sporting" behavior and the spirit of competition, or something like that.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [greg'n] [ In reply to ]
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greg'n wrote:
Don't think money has anything to do with this really. It's about what some would call "sporting" behavior and the spirit of competition, or something like that.

Isn't the spirit of competition and the sport actually about participation? People don't want her participating, despite all the challenges she faces just to get to the start line trained. I don't think that is in the spirit of competition, or "sporting" behavior.

Jim Vance
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [JimVance] [ In reply to ]
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JimVance wrote:
greg'n wrote:
Don't think money has anything to do with this really. It's about what some would call "sporting" behavior and the spirit of competition, or something like that.


Isn't the spirit of competition and the sport actually about participation? People don't want her participating, despite all the challenges she faces just to get to the start line trained. I don't think that is in the spirit of competition, or "sporting" behavior.


No, the spirit of competition is about competing in a sportsmanlike manner...unless those elite athletes you coach are all about THIS "sport." Oh, and I think they "scored" it as a tie.

***edited to add***

For the record, my thoughts on the matter are quite similar to those expressed by TriYoda in his original post, especially regarding competing at AG Nats.
Last edited by: greg'n: Aug 21, 11 19:38
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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I tend to agree with you on a number of points. If you've qualified for your elite license in more than one event in a calendar year, it's probably time to move up. That's something Kaleb VanOrt did last year. He finished out the season as an amateur (I think there were probably 6-7 instances where he met elite card requirements) and then moved up for this season.

Duffy is a great example of a sandbagger because he's met the elite qualifications on probably 30 occassions - basically every time he races. Unfortunately, based on the crazy system in triathlon, he's not doing anything wrong. I think he was top 5 overall (including pros) at Philly last year, close to, if not beating, guys like Matty Reed. Unfortunately, there's no automatic upgrades like in cycling (though I think maybe there should be), so really he's not doing anything wrong, and wanting to go to Kona is legit - even if he is annoying as hell. That said, there's also a number of insanely fast old dudes like Doug Clark. Is anyone really going to force a 45 year-old dude who (I'm assuming) has a full time job to turn pro? Of course not.

The solution is rather simple, of course, and yet would likely disrupt the t-ball "everybody wins" mentality of triathlon. And that is to simply mimic cycling rules:

Categories based on ability, with additional masters and grand masters categories. Create 4 overall categories (pro, fast amateurs, medium amateurs, beginners) then have optional masters categories in ten year increments starting at 40. Have automatic upgrades like in cycling and a very tiered cash prize system for overall categories (like in cycling). Problem solved. That would even make Kona qualifying perfectly fair. Plenty of pro slots, plenty of fast amateur slots, and plenty of masters' slots, plus some lottery and charity slots thrown in for good measure.

That would be brilliant. So brilliant in fact that another sport has already figured it out, and it works smoothly, amazingly, and no one can get upset because there's little grey area. Having this system would also eliminate the problem of ag nats being a time trial and not a race. I was in one of the last waves to go off yesterday and had to swim, bike and run through over a thousand people over the two hours. Maybe having to slow down in all the corners, weave around people on the run, and losing the front pack on the swim once we caught the wave in front of us cost me a few seconds and a couple places, but more importantly, it was really dangerous.

I doubt this will ever happen - it makes too much sense - but it's certainly something they should be considering as the sport continues to grow and races get more and more unwieldy.

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [greg'n] [ In reply to ]
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greg'n wrote:
No, the spirit of competition is about competing in a sportsmanlike manner...unless those elite athletes you coach are all about THIS "sport." Oh, and I think they "scored" it as a tie.
OK, so help me out here. We have a 40 something year old former female pro, that won an olympic medal 7 YEARS ago, has 3 kids, one of them within the last year. Few would argue that she would get her ass absolutely handed to her, in a BIG way if she were still trying to compete at the ITU level and you think she's being unsportsmanlike?

And then you go and post a link about kindergarten? Hey pot meet kettle. You're asking she not compete so someone else can win because we're all winners, right? Here's a tip for everyone that finished behind her, if you want to be a national champ, go faster.

Quite the irony that we have on the front page this thread and another saying how the pro fields suck. How do you feel about that one? Guess what, throw Williams into an ITU race and she'd probably be nearly last, but I suppose that would be more sportmanlike in your eyes.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [MeltingPot] [ In reply to ]
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You could always choose to disagree with something I've actually written rather than whatever it is you have rattling around in your head at a particular moment.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
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     Dude, you are so lucky; I keep reading here that having to pass hundreds or thousands of folks on the bike is a big advantage!
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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cerveloguy wrote:
I honestly don't understand why any top level pro would want to come back and race as an AG'er. Isn't it time to move on and find something else in life instead?

They really like to swim, bike and run?? Against other people?

One of the dumber statements I've read lately.

clm
Nashville, TN
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [kny] [ In reply to ]
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Get over it.

Racing is racing and competition is competition - who cares what label someone has or age someone is.

There was a pretty competitive woman's race here in Ontario recently over the Olympic distance, that had the top 4 women all finished within a minute of one another. They all started in the open wave at the front of the race - their ages spanned 4 decades. The winner was 50(a former National Champion), 2nd pace was in her 20's( and on the national development team), 3rd place was in her 30's( a former national team member), 4th place was in her 40's( podium finisher at numerous IM races) and 5th place was also a women in her late 40's, and a number of years ago finished 2nd at the IAAF World cross-country running championships.

It was simply great to see these women out competing and going head-to-head with one another. Because of their past accomplishments, should they have been in some other category? Whats the statute of limitations on this. Where are really good people supposed to compete? Shouldn't they be competing against one another?

Great stuff!

On our Thursday night hard ride with our club, I am hammering towards the sprint line trying to overtake a guy who could be my son, while the National 60+ Master's champion is trying to come around me!

It's the competition that matters!





Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Tone Deaf] [ In reply to ]
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I don't recall saying that....

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [JimVance] [ In reply to ]
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many on this board have no idea what a true "elite" or "pro" is.

That's just it though. As Fleck (or Fletch or someone with a handle like that) pointed out, the distinction between pro and amateur is blurred by the almost complete absence of prize money in the sport. It's just not very well delineated because there are so few people that can truly make a "profession" out of triathlon and thus there are very few true professionals in the world.

I train as well as I can (some weeks at what I'd consider the pro level, others, not so much), eat as well as I can (ditto), and race as well as I can (lately not doing so hot due to med. issues), and I have yet to make money...not that I deserve any, but there are at least a hundred pros out there that are faster than me, but also don't make any money, so in a sense it doesn't matter. Am I a professional? Maybe. Some would say yes, some would say no. A piece of paper says I am, but I think you and I both know that it's about so much more than that...

Technically off-topic, but relevant nonetheless:

I think that at the end of this year USAT, RD's, WTC, and some major sponsors need to sit down and have a talk about how to make the sport more worthwhile for the pros and sponsors and RD's. Within any sport, people will inevitably look to the best for inspiration, entertainment, leadership, etc. and I think in a lot of ways triathlon as a whole isn't doing a good job of turning talent into cash. As much as I hate the idea of unions, I can understand the appeal of collective bargaining on the behalf of elites to negotiate in matters such as doping control, marketing, race payouts, etc. Currently it seems to me that too many pros are settling for too little. Put pressure on the RD's and sponsors to get more money into the sport, and it automatically becomes more interesting.

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
Quote:
Technically off-topic, but relevant nonetheless:

I think that at the end of this year USAT, RD's, WTC, and some major sponsors need to sit down and have a talk about how to make the sport more worthwhile for the pros and sponsors and RD's. Within any sport, people will inevitably look to the best for inspiration, entertainment, leadership, etc. and I think in a lot of ways triathlon as a whole isn't doing a good job of turning talent into cash. As much as I hate the idea of unions, I can understand the appeal of collective bargaining on the behalf of elites to negotiate in matters such as doping control, marketing, race payouts, etc. Currently it seems to me that too many pros are settling for too little. Put pressure on the RD's and sponsors to get more money into the sport, and it automatically becomes more interesting.

The problem with that is, that even if you have a union you will have zero power. A unions power is based on the employer, or in this case RD, needing the members of the union. Unfortunately for the pros, races are filling to capacity in hours and sometimes minutes, it has zero to do with the pro who may or may not be racing.

I would love to see more support for the pros like there is in cycling. However, I don't have a good answer as to how to accomplish that in the current environment.



Heath Dotson
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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I would just like to highlight to everyone that she had a baby LESS THAN A YEAR AGO! That's pretty freaking awesome!! Now you can go back to your quibbling about unimportant matters.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I'm hoping a complete revolt against a big race like Kona might give pros some power. That, or someone could pay one or two pros an unprecedented amount of money, thereby artificially inflating the values of pros from the top down....

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [DawnT] [ In reply to ]
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DawnT wrote:
I would just like to highlight to everyone that she had a baby LESS THAN A YEAR AGO! That's pretty freaking awesome!! Now you can go back to your quibbling about unimportant matters.

I'm probably one of the biggest fans of pro triathlon as a sport and when BrianPBN posted on the other thread about USAT age group nationals and someone complained about Susan Williams racing I piped in on how cool I thought it is that ex elite athletes still have enough passion to do this sport long after their "playing days" are over.

I watched this thread and let all the responses sink in and suddenly found myself leaning the way of triyoda...specifically for the USAT nationals (not for any other race). Susan Williams does not need to win the USAT age group nationals to build on her tri career....some up and coming young age grouper probably needs that more. There are tons of competitive age group races like Oceanside, St. Anthony's , or St. Croix or Wildflower that she can win overall amateur at....or Savageman where she will thump everyone anyway :-)

I understand that she's a year removed from a baby, and she's truly living the age group life now. I think the question that Triyoda and others had is "does she really need to win this race?". Sure she can, but perhaps that is not the point. The point being there are a ton of other races to pick from and maybe someone needs this more. At the same time maybe she was just trying to win her wave and had no clue that the younger F20-39 could produce no one faster than a 42 year old who just had a baby.

Also if she wants to go to ITU Age group worlds and compete in F40-44 this is her only path to that....I supposed she could sandbag the race and just cruise through and get a slot, but like most of us, she's probably competiting with herself and seeing how much she can get out of her body TODAY and not really competing against others or her former self.

So ideally as someone else said above (I believe KNY) that there would be a Masters Elite category...have that race at the same time as the Elite Nationals and really package that thing up into some type of a marquis event as I am sure this would have a big draw for sponsors too. Would love to see Michellie Jones and others compete in this division not only at USAT nationals and ITU worlds, but also in Kona....and I'm fine with taking Kona or ITU slots away from 40-49 to make room for an elite masters division...and I am sure that there would be many former pros who would LOVE to compete in such a division. Right now, they are stuck a grey zone between not being fast enough to race pro, but so fast that they are just toying with the rest of the field

Dev
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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If someone needs it more they will just have to, you know, actually get fast enough to beat a 42 year old.

this isn't charity.

devashish_paul wrote:
I think the question that Triyoda and others had is "does she really need to win this race?". Sure she can, but perhaps that is not the point. The point being there are a ton of other races to pick from and maybe someone needs this more.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [JimVance] [ In reply to ]
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I thought we were all in this sport to get better than ourselves. The cool thing with racing with pros is that you
always realize how room for improvement there is. If at the local bike races Evans, Contador and the Schlecks
showed up and killed it, it would be awesome. I guess many people race more for their own ego than anything else.

"Don't bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself. " W. Faulkner.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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ah yes, this is another situation where you ask: "What would a crit racer do?"

and you get the answer.


Francois wrote:
I thought we were all in this sport to get better than ourselves. The cool thing with racing with pros is that you
always realize how room for improvement there is. If at the local bike races Evans, Contador and the Schlecks
showed up and killed it, it would be awesome. I guess many people race more for their own ego than anything else.

"Don't bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself. " W. Faulkner.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
Quote:
many on this board have no idea what a true "elite" or "pro" is.


That's just it though. As Fleck (or Fletch or someone with a handle like that) pointed out, the distinction between pro and amateur is blurred by the almost complete absence of prize money in the sport. It's just not very well delineated because there are so few people that can truly make a "profession" out of triathlon and thus there are very few true professionals in the world.

I train as well as I can (some weeks at what I'd consider the pro level, others, not so much), eat as well as I can (ditto), and race as well as I can (lately not doing so hot due to med. issues), and I have yet to make money...not that I deserve any, but there are at least a hundred pros out there that are faster than me, but also don't make any money, so in a sense it doesn't matter. Am I a professional? Maybe. Some would say yes, some would say no. A piece of paper says I am, but I think you and I both know that it's about so much more than that...

Technically off-topic, but relevant nonetheless:

I think that at the end of this year USAT, RD's, WTC, and some major sponsors need to sit down and have a talk about how to make the sport more worthwhile for the pros and sponsors and RD's. Within any sport, people will inevitably look to the best for inspiration, entertainment, leadership, etc. and I think in a lot of ways triathlon as a whole isn't doing a good job of turning talent into cash. As much as I hate the idea of unions, I can understand the appeal of collective bargaining on the behalf of elites to negotiate in matters such as doping control, marketing, race payouts, etc. Currently it seems to me that too many pros are settling for too little. Put pressure on the RD's and sponsors to get more money into the sport, and it automatically becomes more interesting.


If there were NO PROS in triathlon it wouldn't deter the popularity of the sport to the collective masses one bit. In fact, it wouldn't even cause a ripple. Someone would still be the fastest at Kona or wherever and some company would still give gear to the fastest to promote their product, but the people who run the races wouldn't care less, nor would 99% of the paticipants.. As has already been stated, the races everyone wants to run fill up in hours, if not minutes. That's NOT going to change if all the "pros" dissappear.

I have a really good career with excellent earnings and I run Triathlons. I get zero money from Triathlon competitions and sometimes win a prize. The only difference between me and the majority of Pros is that I can buy almost anything I want, whenever I want, because money isn't an issue.

FREE SUSAN WILLIAMS!!!
Last edited by: Tone Deaf: Aug 22, 11 8:01
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
You're point might be a good point if she was an elite. She's an AG athlete now. she no longer races elite. AG nationals is her new Olympics. If someone is upset they got beat by a former Olympics medalist who is no longer elite, they should stop complaining and go do something about getting their ass Handed to them.

A couple of years ago, I finally got around to asking this guy in my age group (45-49), who consistently was among the top bike splitters in every race he did, how he got so fast on the bike.

"I was on the 1980 Olympic cycling team."

Oh.

(yes, the team that didn't go to the Olympics. I looked him up and saw him ahead of Lemond in one Nat'l Championship crit race)

----------------------------------
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Your use of the word "rape" in context makes a decent statement sound dumb and insensitive. Also, please stop throwing around your "pro card" status. You have a collegiate elite license. Not the same at all.

From talking with him, my guess is that Duffy couldn't care less whether he races pro or AG. He doesn't have anything left to prove as an amateur, that's for sure.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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How about this:

What's the point of even having a "pro" classification? The only thing it really means is that you are eligible for prize money and you get to start in the first wave. How about we just get rid of it all together. The very top athletes can still be "pros" in the sense that they try to make a living doing this, but there is no title. If a race offers a prize purse 10 places deep, the top 10 athletes get that prize purse. It doesn't matter who you are, how old you are, or if you consider yourself a "pro" or not.

At the end of the day, eveyone is a human and racing each other. Having a pro card doesn't make you a super human. Everyone should race and compete together. People seem to think that they shouldn't have to race against pros because they are just too good. Get over it, were all the same, and if someone beats you, they beat you.

The fact that there are even races like AG Nationals is a joke in my opinion. Sweet, you won your age group and now your a "national champion" except you were not racing against the best people in the sport. What's next? A national championship for people that can't do an olympic under 2:30? "Hey look at me!! I'm the M18-24 2:30+ National Champion!!!!" If you think about it, thats exactly what the AG National Championship is. You're the best triathlete in a category that doesn't include the best triathletes. Sweet.

There should be two categories in this sport: Men and Women.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [mgalluzz] [ In reply to ]
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She also had about 9 athletes who traveled from CO to race as well, my girlfriend being one of them. Susan is one of the most humble athletes I have ever met and I assume she just wants to compete and support her athletes. She was just as excited as we were to qualify for New Zealand.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Susan Williams does not need to win the USAT age group nationals to build on her tri career....some up and coming young age grouper probably needs that more. There are tons of competitive age group races like Oceanside, St. Anthony's , or St. Croix or Wildflower that she can win overall amateur at....or Savageman where she will thump everyone anyway :-)

If some "needed" the win and didn't get it, then they can use this as motivation to train harder.

Shane
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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It says the same thing thing as Macca's license or anyone else's, but that doesn't matter. I'm the first one to admit i'm not that great, but in a discussion of pro vs amateurism it is relevant to include some personal info to give some context for one's opinions.

As for Brian, he's a brilliant triathlete, and he definitely has had an amazing amateur career. It's a shame he graduated a few years ahead of me...he would have made some MACTC races interesting, but, it's time to move up.

to the other guy: I like the idea of removing the distinction between pro and amateur, but the distinctions are a convenience for RD's

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Last edited by: ZackCapets: Apr 3, 13 9:09
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
to the other guy: I like the idea of removing the distinction between pro and amateur, but the distinctions are a convenience for RD's

How do you figure?
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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A convenience for the RD's? please explain.

I honestly believe there's no point in having the title "pro" in triathlon, for any reason. The competition would be the same regardless of what we call people.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [BGennari] [ In reply to ]
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BGennari wrote:
I think it's awesome that Susan Williams raced USAT Nationals yesterday. Susan and I swam at the University of Alabama years ago. She's one tough cookie! Susan actually told me at last years Nationals race in Tuscaloosa that she was going to race in VT. She really wanted to qualify for Worlds so that she and her husband could go to New Zealand. I am happy that she's going to be able to do that.

I think it's amazing that she has 3 kids (one that is only 11 months old) and she can still lay down some hurt at 42 years old. For those that have an issue with her racing please give us a solution to where and when ex-professionals, like Susan, can race.

I toe the line quite frequently against former professionals all the time. Gordon Byrn and Curt Chesney are two that easily come to mind. Both of these guys are awesome individuals and makes me want to "pick up my game" to try and get faster. They make me faster! The only way I am ever going to beat them is to outwork them. This may or may not happen. So far it hasn't. That's not going to stop me from trying.

So, if you don't want to get beat by ex-professionals then do what's necessary to make sure that doesn't happen. I, for one, like the fact that they are racing with us!

Bruce Gennari

qft
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [mgalluzz] [ In reply to ]
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It simplifies the matter of figuring out who starts when in wave start races. Sending the fast people who are most likely to win money first keeps the race honest.

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
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snackchair wrote:
Have automatic upgrades like in cycling

It doesn't work like you think it does. Automatic upgrades are anything but automatic. They are at the discretion of the district upgrade coordinator (except for Cat1, which has to be approved by USAC), who does not have the time to monitor the progress of hundreds if not thousands of athletes on a week to week basis. If you think automatic upgrades keep sandbaggers out of amateur cycling., you haven't raced much.

Master's riders race against ex-pros every weekend. That's the way it should be. HTFU.

Congrats to Susan for making Worlds.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [mgalluzz] [ In reply to ]
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It also makes things like wtc's doping control program possible (testing the people who most likely stand to benefit financially from cheating). The pro distinction allows them to narrow the search for dopers significantly.

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
It simplifies the matter of figuring out who starts when in wave start races. Sending the fast people who are most likely to win money first keeps the race honest.

Actually, no, the most "honest" raceis the one where everyone lines up and goes, having to deal with the same obstacles. Your version of "honest" puts the pros out front without having to deal with much of a scrum. There is no reason not to eliminate the "pro" distinction. SOMEONE will finish first, second, etc.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Tone Deaf] [ In reply to ]
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I agree, but if this were feasible then it would be done...

Wave starts aren't the most fair, but mass starts aren't the most safe, so there is obviously a tradeoff.

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [MikeDoc] [ In reply to ]
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You guys are most welcome in our country.

If you need a point of contact here in NZ - if we can do anything at all for your preps for Worlds (checking out accom etc) ...please contact me.

NZ is very excited an Olympic medalist - and her team - are coming to race here.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
It simplifies the matter of figuring out who starts when in wave start races.
\

Yeah, that really makes the life of an RD that much easier. One thing I've learned from slowtwitch is to not make claims about stuff you know nothing about in order to sound more credible. You will get called out on it.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [shovelhd] [ In reply to ]
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shovelhd wrote:
snackchair wrote:
Have automatic upgrades like in cycling


It doesn't work like you think it does. Automatic upgrades are anything but automatic. They are at the discretion of the district upgrade coordinator (except for Cat1, which has to be approved by USAC), who does not have the time to monitor the progress of hundreds if not thousands of athletes on a week to week basis. If you think automatic upgrades keep sandbaggers out of amateur cycling., you haven't raced much.

Master's riders race against ex-pros every weekend. That's the way it should be. HTFU.

Congrats to Susan for making Worlds.


I think the word "sandbagger" gets thrown around way too much. There are so many circumstances and personal reasons why someone may be racing in a category that appears lower than their fitness/finishing time would dictate. I think stepping away from the sport and having a baby less than a year ago would certainly qualify - not to mention a myriad of other reasons she may have that isn't so obvious.

As Shovelhd said - just HTFU and get on with it!

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Last edited by: bonesbrigade: Aug 22, 11 11:41
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [shovelhd] [ In reply to ]
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shovelhd wrote:
snackchair wrote:
Have automatic upgrades like in cycling


It doesn't work like you think it does. Automatic upgrades are anything but automatic. They are at the discretion of the district upgrade coordinator (except for Cat1, which has to be approved by USAC), who does not have the time to monitor the progress of hundreds if not thousands of athletes on a week to week basis. If you think automatic upgrades keep sandbaggers out of amateur cycling., you haven't raced much.

Master's riders race against ex-pros every weekend. That's the way it should be. HTFU.

Congrats to Susan for making Worlds.

I'm confused. Are you telling me to htfu? Not sure how that's relevant. I feel like you either didn't read my post or are replying to someone else. I have no issue with Susan Williams racing ag nats, or amateurs not upgrading. Nor do I have a problem lining up next to Mark McCormack at Wells Ave a few times a year. The deeper the field, the more meaningful the race. If you took anything but that from my post, I suggest you reread it.

What I suggested was a system that was more relevant than Age Groups, which are fairly useless, and make for bad race dynamics (wave starts based on age not ability are unsafe to say the least).

I see the need for only two categories: Open and Masters. But in races where you've got thousands of athletes lining up, it makes sense to have some kind of distinction. Breaking the "open" division into ability levels makes a lot more sense than breaking it into age brackets.

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [kny] [ In reply to ]
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Don't be a douche just because you don't understand. I've worked very closely with two major triathlon production companies in NC, and put on a few smaller events myself so I have a pretty intimate appreciation of what goes on behind the scenes. I'm also generalizing to entire organizations such as WTC when I say "RD's" (I generally mean anyone involved in organizing the races), and did a pretty good job of justifying their reasons for differentiating between pro and amateurs above.

The truth is that there are plenty of reasons, and until you actually spend some time with RD's and begin to make decisions like these yourself you may not understand, but don't automatically assume that I don't.

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
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snackchair wrote:

I'm confused. Are you telling me to htfu?

No. We agree. It was a general comment. The quote was to put some reality around USAC automatic upgrades.

See you at Wells Ave.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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You see the same problem in motocross and I'm sure other sports. Two years after giving up your pro card you can race Loretta Lynn's, which is the main amateur national race. Most racers are unhappy that former pros can enter the premier amateur race in the country. You see former factory riders over 40 just dominating their class. Would be like Dave Scott racing against me. Amateur championships should be strictly for participants that have always been an amateur. As for any other race, bring it on, I would be happy to line up next to Dave Scott and compete against him in my age group.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [summitt] [ In reply to ]
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"Amateur championships should be strictly for participants that have always been an amateur. As for any other race, bring it on, I would be happy to line up next to Dave Scott and compete against him in my age group."

X 2
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Kny is the RD of Savageman.....among its most notable overall winners is Susan Williams :-) I think he knows a few things about being an RD and perhaps even this topic we're discussing :-)
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Jeff Spicoli] [ In reply to ]
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Former pro's should have a special wave.

i am in Emilio Desoto Age group, and Greg Welsh, i can't win even even on my best day
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [thierry64] [ In reply to ]
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thierry64 wrote:
Former pro's should have a special wave.

i am in Emilio Desoto Age group, and Greg Welsh, i can't win even even on my best day
Please tell me this is a joke?
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [MeltingPot] [ In reply to ]
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no, do you think it is fare?, when Michael Phelp retires and enter local swim meet, it will be fare.

i work 60 hours a week, while a pro train 6 hours a day, when he retires because he or she ar no longer good enough, in the pro division, they come over the my AG and kick my ass.

a special division need to be created, we have one for "BIG" people, one for challenged athletes, one for CEO,
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [thierry64] [ In reply to ]
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thierry64 wrote:
no, do you think it is fare?, when Michael Phelp retires and enter local swim meet, it will be fare.

i work 60 hours a week, while a pro train 6 hours a day, when he retires because he or she ar no longer good enough, in the pro division, they come over the my AG and kick my ass.

a special division need to be created, we have one for "BIG" people, one for challenged athletes, one for CEO,
Holy shit...is this really how the world thinks? Please tell me I'm not in the minority.

If I work 61 hours a week and you only work 60, can I get a special division for me too?

When my kids were little, they had a thousand different divisions, so EVERYONE WAS A WINNER. That was when they were 6 and you as an adult are essentially asking for the same thing.

When did we get to a point in race culture where everyone needs to win? At a certain point, do you really give a crap if you take home some dopey award from the 12th Annual East Bumbleshit Triathlon?
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [thierry64] [ In reply to ]
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thierry64 wrote:
no, do you think it is fare?, when Michael Phelp retires and enter local swim meet, it will be fare.

i work 60 hours a week, while a pro train 6 hours a day, when he retires because he or she ar no longer good enough, in the pro division, they come over the my AG and kick my ass.

a special division need to be created, we have one for "BIG" people, one for challenged athletes, one for CEO,

----------------

Oh good lord,suck it up.....You should feel honoured to share a lane with Micheal Phelps...

I have raced against many retired pro triathletes and have no worries getting my ass kicked...I REALLY enjoy having my ass slapped by the female pros ...

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [thierry64] [ In reply to ]
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If Phelps ever did do the master swimming route, the general attitude would probably be that it was fucking awesome to get to line up on the blocks in the same heat as Michael fucking Phelps. But then swimming has more of a 'you're always racing yourself' attitude and it doesn't matter so much to lose to MP if he helps pull you to a best time or best recent time in an event.

This kind of question pops up when the big guns show up at local meets and its generally seen as a very positive thing. (North Baltimore's annual Christmas meet is pretty well known for drawing a ton of international level swimmers including Michael Phelps mixing with kids who barely have A cuts, and a good time seems to be had for all there.)
Last edited by: FLA Jill: Aug 22, 11 14:38
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Ultra-tri-guy] [ In reply to ]
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so why do we have so many age group then, let's just have a open division for everyone.

i don't beleive in "everyone is a winner" mentality.

i have won plenty, and lost plenty. and raise my daughter, with the attidute that you have to work harder than the guy next door if you want to win.

but common a Olympian in a AG!!!!, i am not saying they can't race. i am saying they should be in a "Open division" and anyone who want to race against them can enter that division.

oh wait it's called a Elite/ open divsion in Triathlon
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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styrrell wrote:
Men bitch about it, maybe even more. I thin part of it come from if you start nin tri at a young age and do well as an AGer from ages 20-35 or so,, you suddenly find your sefl getting beat by more people. Its not that those guys were around, its just that they were racing pro in tri or in one of the single sports. I typically would place higher in 20-25 than I would in 45-50, but its just that the best 20-25 yo are otherwise occupied.

Styrrell
Don't Kidd yourself .....i here you were studly when you were younger :0)

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [thierry64] [ In reply to ]
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thierry64 wrote:
i have won plenty, and lost plenty. and raise my daughter, with the attidute that you have to work harder than the guy next door if you want to win.

but common a Olympian in a AG!!!!, i am not saying they can't race. i am saying they should be in a "Open division" and anyone who want to race against them can enter that division.

oh wait it's called a Elite/ open divsion in Triathlon

Missy Franklin is probably going to swim high school season in Colorado this year. You know, the girl who would have four long course world records (200 free, 200 back, 400 MR, 800FR) if you exclude marks from the 08-09 tech suit era. There will be coaches who try to schedule their girls around what she's swimming at Colorado's state meet, and other coaches who will shrug and admit that unless she DQs, everyone else is swimming for second place. It's just the nature of the beast.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Ultra-tri-guy] [ In reply to ]
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5 years down the road, Michael Phelp, Lance Armstrong and Chrissy Wellington show up at a triathlon in the coed team division, would it be fare to the rest of the teams?

not really, it would be great, but not really a even field.

again i am not saying they shouldn't race,
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [thierry64] [ In reply to ]
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I raced against Brad Beven during the height of his career at our local events in Cairns and never begrudged the fact that he put me off the podium every time he showed up...Now that he is retired I think it is great that I get to see others race against the legend...

I never hear anyone in Australia bitching that Brad or Emma Carney race age group in Noosa...

I never hear anyone in Australia bitching that Chappo cranks out 8:30 age group times in Ironman in Oz..

I never hear anyone bitching that Dawn Fraser smashes age group records in the pool in Aussie swim meets..

I never heard anyone at the Crocodile Trophy in Oz bitch about Phil Anderson racing..

Maybe we just don't bitch so much down there and are just happy to race against these great athletes..

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Ultra-tri-guy] [ In reply to ]
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Ultra-tri-guy wrote:
I raced against Brad Beven during the height of his career at our local events in Cairns and never begrudged the fact that he put me off the podium every time he showed up...Now that he is retired I think it is great that I get to see others race against the legend...

I never hear anyone in Australia bitching that Brad or Emma Carney race age group in Noosa...

I never hear anyone in Australia bitching that Chappo cranks out 8:30 age group times in Ironman in Oz..

I never hear anyone bitching that Dawn Fraser smashes age group records in the pool in Aussie swim meets..

I never heard anyone at the Crocodile Trophy in Oz bitch about Phil Anderson racing..

Maybe we just don't bitch so much down there and are just happy to race against these great athletes..

----------------------

Nah, yer all just too drunk to care. ;-)


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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [trackie clm] [ In reply to ]
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"One of the dumber statements I've read lately. "

Now, now Catherine, settle down.

I'm sure Lance will be coming out of retirement any day now to pursue a national amateur cycling championship.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Correction...Susan Williams is the first and only U.S. Olympian to medal in triathlon in the history of the games.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Avalonna] [ In reply to ]
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yeah, murphy'slaw! so there! and if you say anything else so obviously stupid i'm going to call you out!

two years later ;-)

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ian moone] [ In reply to ]
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Except that Lance would not be able to race.


Damn, that's a cold ass honkey.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
yeah, murphy'slaw! so there! and if you say anything else so obviously stupid i'm going to call you out!

two years later ;-)

Something on the Internet was wrong??!
That's unpossible.

Anybody who wants to call me out on all the obviously stupid shit I've posted here, especially 2 or more years ago, had better get cracking!!
Busy, busy, busy!


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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Murphy'sLaw wrote:
Anybody who wants to call me out on all the obviously stupid shit I've posted here, especially 2 or more years ago, had better get cracking!!
Busy, busy, busy!

There isn't time enough in the day...or week...maybe month.

John



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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Okay, legit razzing on the tardiness. I was just searching on her name for another reason and ran across the vitriolic thread. Felt a bit protective because Susan Williams is such an awesome coach and amazing athlete.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [ian moone] [ In reply to ]
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ian moone wrote:
no, do you think it is fare?, when Michael Phelp retires and enter local swim meet, it will be fare.

i work 60 hours a week, while a pro train 6 hours a day, when he retires because he or she ar no longer good enough, in the pro division, they come over the my AG and kick my ass.

a special division need to be created, we have one for "BIG" people, one for challenged athletes, one for CEO,
How about
Minor league
AAA
AA
American Legion

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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [Avalonna] [ In reply to ]
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Doing a search and bumping a 2-year old thread is creepy. Next time do what I do, mail her your ear and tell her you and her should be together.

Weirdo.
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Re: Susan Williams.??????????? [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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what's even more creepy is registering today then having all your posts be about her. Creepy Stalker. (yes both words are supposed to be in capital letters, it's a title)

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